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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Washington's Budget Battle Heats Up; New York Governor Eliot Spitzer Playing the Race Card?
Aired October 30, 2007 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, seething anger on Capitol Hill over the Bush administration's complete failure to protect American consumers from dangerous imports. New calls tonight for the resignation of the acting chairman of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. We will have that special report.
Also tonight, the White House trying to impose its faith-based economic policies and so-called free trade agenda on the American people. We will have a special report on what Congress is doing in our special report entitled "War on the Middle Class."
And Governor Eliot Spitzer of New York, he plays the race card as he struggles to defend his absolutely indefensible plan to give away driver's licenses to illegal aliens. The governor accusing his critics of spewing what he called racist venom, and he accused me of spewing hate and misinformation. I will have a few words of my own for the good prince Eliot tonight.
All of that, a lot more tonight, straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, October 30.
Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
President Bush and congressional Democrats today blasting one another for the budget deadlock in Washington. The Democrats accusing President Bush of almost doubling the national debt, President Bush saying the Democratic-led Congress has the worst record in two decades. The political rhetoric and firestorms showing that elected officials of both parties are failing to do the people's business in Washington.
Jessica Yellin has our report tonight from Capitol Hill -- Jessica.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, what you're seeing is a long-simmering spending fight start to boil over.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN (voice-over): Flanked by House Republican leaders, an increasingly confrontational President Bush took the latest swipe at the Democratic Congress. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They have not been able to send a single annual appropriations bill to my desk.
YELLIN: He said that's the worst record in 20 years and called on Democrats to get their spending bills to the White House quickly.
BUSH: The leadership that's on the Hill now cannot get that job done. Spending is skyrocketing under their leadership.
YELLIN: The Democrats hit back more forcefully than usual.
REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), MAJORITY LEADER: This president has had a disastrous six years, perhaps one of the worst six years of any president in my lifetime.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: So, I think the president's statement in many respects was a waste of time.
YELLIN: And they accuse the president of rewriting history, saying under Mr. Bush spending increased 50 percent over President Clinton, turning a surplus into a $400 billion deficit.
And when Republicans controlled Congress, they regularly failed to send the president's spending measures on time. Mr. Bush was not threatening to veto most of those bills.
HOYER: He no longer has a complacent, complicit conspirator in doing nothing in the Congress of the United States. And so he's complaining.
YELLIN: While both sides hurl accusations in the spending fight, they remain deadlocked on other issues, including the wiretap and children's health insurance bills, neither of which is close to becoming law.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN: Bottom line, Lou, we have seen a lot of rhetoric, but so far not a lot of compromise to get the work done -- Lou.
DOBBS: And I suspect we shouldn't expect compromise. It's fascinating to watch a president with among the lowest approval ratings in presidential history and a Congress with, by some accounts of some polls, the lowest approval rating going after one another for each other's failures.
Does anyone there in Washington and certainly on Capitol Hill honestly expect this to boost their approval rating among the American people?
YELLIN: A lot of them are looking to the 2008 elections and think they can make issues of some of the fights they're having right now.
DOBBS: Jessica, thank you very much.
You have one of the tougher jobs on this or any other network, trying to make sense of what those people are doing on Capitol Hill.
YELLIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you, Jessica Yellin.
As Jessica just reported, President Bush is now accusing Democrats of fiscal irresponsibility. This from a president who has presided over the largest increases in federal spending since the administration of Lyndon Baines Johnson 40 years ago.
Ed Henry now reports on the White House.
Ed, why is President Bush, pray tell, stepping up his attacks on those poor Democratic leaders now?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, I think you just made the point a moment ago. You have a weak president here who has found someone who is even weaker than him to pick on, the Democratic Congress. He sees an opportunity to go on offense and he tried to seize that this morning. The president feels that the Democrats on the Hill are not living up to some of the promises they made to voters about trying to bridge the divide here in Washington, as you were just talking about and that they have spent far too much time sending him subpoenas, instead of important legislation.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The House of Representatives has wasted valuable time on a constant stream of investigations, and the Senate has wasted valuable time on an endless series of failed votes to pull our troops out of Iraq. And yet there is important work to be done on behalf of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, whether this strategy works for the president or not is a whole 'nother question. As you just heard Jessica report, when Republicans ran Capitol Hill, they were also tardy in getting their spending bills to the president's desk and the president never vetoed any of those Republican spending bills, so the debt did rise on his watch.
And it made -- so that may make it, obviously, more difficult for him to now seize back the mantle of fiscal responsibility, Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much bringing to us the other half of what seems to be a battle of titans there in Washington, President Bush and the Democratic leadership in Congress. It's something, I'm sure, the American people -- it warms the hearts of the American people, I'm sure, to watch that exchange.
Thank you, sir.
HENRY: Thank you. DOBBS: President Bush today nominated retired General James Peake to be the new secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
President Bush said General Peake is the first physician and the first general to be nominated for the post. General Peake is an Army doctor, a decorated Vietnam veteran, the president's announcement coming more than three months after the previous Veterans Affairs secretary, Jim Nicholson, resigned.
The White House had faced strong criticism for its failure to quickly and timely nominate a successor.
Insurgents in Iraq today killed three more of our troops. Those soldiers were killed in a roadside bomb near Baghdad; 37 of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month. It remains the lowest monthly total since March of last year; 3,844 of our troops have been killed since the war began, 28,385 of our troops wounded, 12,831 of them seriously.
New information tonight about our military's growing dependence on private security contractors in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Incredibly, the Pentagon is now using those private contractors to provide security for some of our senior military commanders. One of those commanders was wounded in a roadside bomb attack against a convoy protected by British security forces.
Jamie McIntyre reports now from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Pentagon employs some 7,000 private contractors to provide security for both civilians and military personnel operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, including some senior officers, such as Brigadier General Jeffrey Dorko, wounded in an IED attack on his armored SUV Monday in Baghdad.
GEOFF MORRELL, PENTAGON SPOKESPERSON: We simply do not have the resources to do everything that perhaps we would like to do. And so you have to make choices about where they can best be used.
MCINTYRE: Most American generals are protected by their own troops, but some, like General Dorko, who is with the Army Corps of Engineers, have no combat forces under their command and rely on private hired guns.
A spokesman for the U.S. military in Iraq told CNN: "The private security companies better meet the travel needs of many of our general officers. This allows combat troops to perform other, more critical duties."
At a congressional oversight hearing this month, the problem was clear.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D-CA), GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, at some point, you have to make a decision in this battlefield and this war. If we don't have enough troops to do the job, then we should get more troops.
MCINTYRE: But training troops to fight wars is not the same as training them to be bodyguards.
REP. TOM DAVIS (R), VIRGINIA: Now, if we want to train them to do that, we can do that, but that hasn't been the history throughout the last 50 years of the military that I am aware of.
MCINTYRE: It could be done, but at considerable cost, says author Robert Young Pelton, whose book "Licensed to Kill" argues the U.S. is over-reliant on contractors.
ROBERT YOUNG PELTON, AUTHOR, "LICENSED TO KILL": And the question is, do we want to create this huge behemoth of sort of state- mandated military police or State Department security? And that's a question that taxpayers should decide on, but necessarily -- hasn't actually been presented to us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The biggest problem with using private security contractors is, they're expensive and harder to hold accountable if things go wrong.
Today, the Pentagon announced a preliminary agreement with the State Department to put more controls over contractors, putting the movement of contractors in Iraq completely under control of the U.S. military and standardizing the rules for the use of force as well as the training of security contractors -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, an excellent report highlighting an issue that I think many Americans simply were not aware.
Do we have a strong, plausible, reasonable estimate as to how many generals in the United States military are being protected by private security forces right now?
MCINTYRE: It's a relatively small number. First of all, there are not that many generals, but some of them, especially ones who don't routinely travel in and out of the Green Zone, are using private security people.
But don't forget the entire Green Zone is protected to some extent by private contractors as well.
DOBBS: We have reached a stage -- you know, I said to you last night I couldn't imagine anyone in that building of any rank not being seriously embarrassed by the fact that senior U.S. military commanders are being protected by private security forces.
By the way, has anyone contacted you to suggest they might be a little embarrassed, or are they still mute on the matter of their personal integrity and honor?
MCINTYRE: Well, publicly, there hasn't been anything much said, although privately one Pentagon official did shake his head today and say for all the trouble that these private contractors are causing us, it would probably be better to just do the job ourselves.
DOBBS: You know, that person has grasped something that has alluded the general staff and the civilian leadership right up to the commander in chief to this point, hopefully, that they will grasp the matter sooner rather than later.
Jamie McIntyre, as always, thank you for your excellent reporting from the Pentagon.
Still ahead here, fury and frustration over more dangerous imports from communist China and other countries as well.
Christine Romans will have the latest for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, top Democrats today demanded the resignation of the head of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. The White House accused Democrats of playing politics with consumer safety -- Lou.
DOBBS: Oh, no, not playing politics, not in Washington, not with the lives and the safety of American citizens, surely not. We will find out more in Christine's report, up next.
Also, the Bush White House refusing to acknowledge the rising anger among Democrats and Republicans over some of its faith-based economic policies. We will have that special report, "War on the Middle Class."
And Governor Eliot Spitzer of New York, well, he may not be in denial; he's certainly out there lashing away publicly, refusing to accept the will of the people over his outrageous proposal to give away driver's licenses to illegal aliens -- the governor playing the race card as well, having exhausted reason, facts, and any kind of logic, and then spewing words of venom and hate toward me.
I am hurt. And I am going to tell the good prince Eliot just how hurt later in this very broadcast.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Top Democrats tonight are calling for the resignation of the acting head of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Those calls coming as Congress moves to revamp that agency that has been battered by massive recalls of potentially dangerous toys and other products, while the Bush administration has cut its funding and staffing.
Christine Romans reports now on what has become a battle over the future of that agency, an agency that is supposed to be protecting American consumers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): Democrats say they have lost faith in the head of the Consumer Product Safety Commission and called for her resignation.
PELOSI: Is it too much to expect the government to live up to its responsibility to protect our children?
ROMANS: The acting chairwoman of the CPSC, Nancy Nord, said she has no plans to resign. She's been a commissioner for two-and-a-half years.
The White House accused Democrats of politicizing consumer safety. But Democrats and some consumer advocates say the agency is simply broken.
SEN. MARK PRYOR (D), ARKANSAS: I do feel like the Consumer Product Safety Commission is resisting the efforts for us to revamp the agency and to provide more safety in the marketplace. We are in almost a crisis mode here with the record number of recalls that we're seeing in this country.
ROMANS: His Senate bill would increase funding for the agency by almost $142 million over the next seven years and raise fines companies face for dangerous products from only $1.8 million today to $100 million.
But in letters to key senators, Nord recommended a smaller penalty cap of $10 million -- quote -- I do not believe there is a need for this level of penalty cap."
She also argued against criminal penalties for company officials, which -- quote -- "could expose otherwise law-abiding individuals to large fines and incarceration."
NANCY NORD, ACTING CHAIRWOMAN, CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION: If the Congress gives me more resources, I would welcome those resources. But I want to make sure that the resources we have, that the people we hire are the right resources, the right people.
ROMANS: Her staff today is half what it was in 1980. There is only one full-time toy tester.
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: The White House continues to slash the budget of the Consumer Product Safety Commission and the toy companies continue to get their way.
ROMANS: Nord says product safety is everyone's goal, but her job is to make sure any new legislation is -- quote -- "practical and enforceable."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: The Senate Commerce Committee passed its overhaul of the agency this afternoon. It would ban the direct use of lead in all children's products from lunch boxes to toys, increase the number of Consumer Product Safety Commission commissioners to five from three, and protect whistle-blowers all along the supply chain who expose dangerous products. That last point, also, the chairwoman is against. She says that her agency doesn't have the capacity or the experience to be able to handle what could be a flood of whistle-blowers.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: I mean, how do you take these people seriously? This is -- this woman is a complete joke. To suggest that it would expose these corporate executives to large fines and jail, wouldn't that be exactly the point of their -- their negligence, their foolishness, their dishonesty, their absolute corruption?
ROMANS: She says she would like to spend her resources and future manpower hiring inspectors, not hiring litigators. She is worried that her agency is going to be...
DOBBS: That agency should use its resources just as -- just as Sherrod Brown said, Senator Brown. They should use their resources. Write her a bonus to get the heck out of there. Bring in somebody who cares about what is going on here.
ROMANS: Lou, the White House says they're standing behind their commissioner.
DOBBS: Oh, I am sure they are.
ROMANS: There is a spot open, don't forget.
DOBBS: Their commissioner?
ROMANS: Their acting commissioner.
DOBBS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
ROMANS: They're standing behind her. And...
DOBBS: Are they standing behind their one toy tester, too?
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: I mean, because I really want to hear the president of the United States is behind that one toy tester for how many millions of toys coming into this country?
ROMANS: Well, $22.3 billion in toys sold last year, so he has got a lot of work to do. But...
DOBBS: What kind of fools do they take the American people for? Well, I guess we know the answer to that as well. Unbelievable.
How do we get to this place in history and subject the American people to this kind of treatment by its government?
ROMANS: And now both sides are saying that the other side is playing politics, so that will only make it more murky, I'm sure, as we go ahead. There is still a spot that needs to be filled on this commission.
DOBBS: Murky? Murky? This is as clear as it can be. This is a government that is dysfunctional, an administration that simply doesn't care about its responsibilities or the people it is here to serve. That looks less than murky to me, at least, Christine. I hope I'm not oversimplifying it.
ROMANS: Well, it is clear this is going on to the Senate next, Lou.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks, as always -- Christine Romans.
Well, time now for some of your thoughts.
Al in New York wrote in to say I should apologize for calling Spitzer an idiot. "To call this guy an idiot is an insult to idiots."
You know, you may have a point. I am going to have to think about that. We will examine it carefully, I'm sure, in the days ahead.
And Bob in Virginia: "This morning on CNN, Governor Spitzer melted down and had to sink so low as to use the R-word, the race card, the R-card. He called people who opposed his legislation racist. We all know that, when politicians have no strong footing for their insanity, they slander all who challenge them with a racist tag. Maybe the 72 percent of New Yorkers should slap the governor with a slander suit" -- 72 percent being the number of New Yorkers surveyed who oppose the governor's plan to give away driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
Allison in Texas wrote in to say: "I find it cowardly and disgraceful how Eliot -- Governor Spitzer came on CNN this morning pushing his driver's license plan for illegal aliens. However, he does not have the spine to appear on your show. What a coward this loathsome man appears to be."
One hopes it is only an appearance. One hopes that he will join us here. And one hopes he will at some point outgrow both his training wheels and learner's permit as governor in this state.
Paddy in New York: "My hat's off to you, especially going against Governor Spitzer. Don't know where half of these politicians get their brains from, but it has to be awfully empty in the rock garden."
You know, I'm afraid to look in that rock garden, for fear we will find none at all.
We will have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. And I guarantee, tonight, we will. We have been losing that second tranche of e-mails. And I hate to do that. So, we're not going to. We're going to make time for it.
And now our poll question. Do you believe it is racist to enforce U.S. immigration laws and to secure our ports and borders, as prince Eliot and others seem to do, including king George. Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We will have the results here later in the show.
Up next, more on the good governor who is playing the race card as he struggles to defend an indefensible plan to give driver's licenses to illegal aliens. He says his opponents and critics are spewing racist venom.
And lawmakers on Capitol Hill about to advance another of the president's faith-based trade policies. Wait a minute. This is a Democratic Congress. We will have a special report on what that means for America's middle class, you know, the people who make this country work.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congress now taking up the Bush administration's latest so-called free trade agreement initiative this week, the Bush administration, big business pushing for Congress to sign free trade deals, so-called, with Peru and several other nations.
At the same time, President Bush is threatening to veto new legislation that would help American workers who lose their jobs because of those free trade agreements.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Galesburg, Illinois, factories have shut down and moved overseas, including the Maytag plant, hundreds of workers laid off.
REP. PHIL HARE (D), ILLINOIS: We have lost in this nation well over one million manufacturing jobs. I am not giving up on those jobs. I want them to stay here. And I want some of them to come back. And the only way we're going to do that, I believe, is to stand up for the American worker and say, not on our watch.
SYLVESTER: Local Congressman Phil Hare opposes the pending Peru free trade agreement. He says it subsidizes companies moving offshore and lacks tough labor and environmental enforcement rules.
The White House has been lobbying heavily for the Peru deal and three other agreements with Colombia, Panama and South Korea.
BUSH: When trade expands, American workers gain.
SYLVESTER: Democrats are hesitant to hand the White House a blank check on trade. Adding to their reluctance is the fact that the Bush administration is threatening to veto a bill that would help displaced workers. Known as the Trade Adjustment Assistance Program, it would extend job retraining to the service industry and expand health care coverage and unemployment insurance for laid-off employees. It would cost $6 billion over 10 years.
But the Labor Department argues the bill would keep workers out of the job market for too long.
MASON BISHOP, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR: We do not believe a European- style unemployment, extended unemployment approach is the way to go. We believe in reemployment. We believe in training. And that's what we would encourage the Democrats to take a look at.
SYLVESTER: Democrats dismiss that as an excuse from a White House they say has poor record on worker protection.
REP. ADAM SMITH (D), WASHINGTON: Well, the Bush administration has never been good about trying to help workers. They look out at the economy and say, everything is fine. What is the problem? They're not interested in programs that actually help them. And I think that's a big mistake.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Illinois Representative Phil Hare, a freshman Democrat, used to work in the clothing industry cutting cloth for men's suits. And that plant where he worked, well, that is long gone. He is not happy with members of his own party for even bringing up the Peru free trade agreement. He says voters wanted a change, not more of the same -- Lou.
DOBBS: It just gets better and better, doesn't it, in that fair city that we lovingly call our nation's capital?
Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester.
Up next, I will be joined by radio talk show hosts, four of them, including one, a black radio talk show host, who has joined in the call for a national economic boycott to protest racial injustice in this country.
We will also be talking about Governor Eliot Spitzer, his defiance of the will of the people of New York and his insistence on giving away driver's licenses to illegal aliens. We will find out a little more about the governor's thinking when his deputy secretary for public safety, Mike Balboni, join us.
And I will have a few words of my own for prince Eliot, after he accused his critics of spewing what he called racist venom. You know, the race card, it is what people do apparently in high office when they run out of reason, facts and persuasive argument. He's there already, and he has played the R-card.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, New York's governor, Eliot Spitzer, is still forging ahead, of course, tonight with his desire to give away driver's license from his state to illegal aliens. The governor defending his outrageous plan on CNN this morning.
Shortly after he was reminded that 72 percent of voters in New York oppose his proposal and that Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff did not endorse it, Governor Spitzer decided, apparently, it was time to attack me. He did it in a matter that so many others have done before in the socio-ethnic centric activist groups and the Democratic leadership and the Bush administration. All of them, when they run out of arguments, when they run out of facts, they did what Governor Spitzer this morning did -- they play the race card.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "AMERICAN MORNING")
GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: It's beneath me. It's beneath my office to in any way involve myself with Lou Dobbs. And I think his knowing spread of venom -- the sort of racist venom that has underlined much of the criticism -- I think it's shameful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Racist venom?
The governor should know better than to inject racism into a debate about giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens or any other debate of public policy. It is certainly -- I don't know about the rest of his discussion, but I will guarantee you this, Governor -- to inject race and your previous comment, in which you described critics and opponents of your plan to give away driver's licenses to illegal aliens as anti-immigrant is certainly beneath your office. It is certainly beneath your responsibility and the high trust that the people of New York -- the citizens of New York have given you.
Well, the subject of our poll tonight is do you believe it's racist to enforce U.S. immigration laws and to secure our ports and borders -- yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.
We'll have your results here later in the broadcast.
Critics of the governor's proposal to give away driver's license to illegal aliens are not only concerned about potential terrorists obtaining driver's licenses, they also are concerned that Spitzer's plan invites massive voter fraud.
As Kitty Pilgrim now reports, registering to vote may soon be as easy for illegal aliens in New York State as obtaining a driver's license.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In New York State, apply for a driver's license and register to vote at the same time by checking a box. New York State's Board of Election officials today confirmed they are not tasked to go back and check citizenship. And local New York officials today say they are simply not equipped to do that double check on voter registration. JUAN CARLOS POLANCO (R), BRONX COUNTY, ELECTIONS COMMISSION: We're climbing up a slippery slope here, because no one is checking. No one is checking whether or not people planning register to vote at the Board of Election and the Motor Voter are, in fact, eligible to vote in the first place.
PILGRIM: The governor today dismissed fears of illegal voter registration, saying his new plan is more secure.
SPITZER: This has absolutely nothing to do with voting. This is something seven other states do for security. The director of homeland security has said we improved security by knowing who was there.
PILGRIM: According to the Coalition for a Secure Driver's License, 43 states demand proof of lawful presence to get a driver's license. The organization lists only seven states -- Washington, Oregon, Maine, Michigan, Maryland, New Mexico and Hawaii -- which do not require so-called lawful presence as a requirement for driver's licenses -- which means illegal aliens can get licenses. And some of those states are tightening up regulations.
BRIAN ZIMMER, COALITION FOR SECURE DRIVER'S LICENSES: The direction is toward requiring lawful presence. North Carolina did not, until this spring, require proof lawful presence. This spring, it began requiring proof of lawful presence. Oregon's governor announced two weeks ago that he was considering doing the same under executive authority. So the direction is the opposite of Governor Spitzer's decision.
PILGRIM: Another state, Utah, issues a driver's privilege card, which cannot be used for federal identification purposes.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, Motor Voter regulations, as they stand, functions as a sort of honor system. Anyone registering to vote must affirm that they are U.S. citizens or face perjury penalties. But if illegal aliens carry valid licenses, election officials are worried they have no means to check a person's eligibility to vote -- Lou.
DOBBS: And to put this in some perspective, no -- no correspondent, no reporter, no journalist in the country has covered democracy and their voting system as much as Kitty Pilgrim. And based on what you are reporting here tonight, the fact that these county election boards in New York State -- but, really, across the country -- literally do nothing to check and confirm the status of a voter who's registered...
PILGRIM: They say...
DOBBS: ...I mean we're talking about the potential here for massive voter fraud on a national scale.
PILGRIM: It's deeply disturbing. They say they're basically not equipped to do this. The DMV commissioner testified in Albany about two weeks ago. He says it's the Board of Election's responsibility to check voter eligibility...
DOBBS: Yes.
PILGRIM: ...and he put the onus on the Board of Elections. But they don't have...
DOBBS: Wouldn't it be the responsibility of the governor, for crying out loud, of the State of New York to ensure the integrity of the electoral system -- oh, as well as driver's licenses, Governor?
Just a thought.
Kitty, thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
While critics of Governor Spitzer's revised proposal -- the one he just came up now, three-tiers, all of that -- to give away driver's licenses to illegal aliens still are raising security concerns tonight.
My next guest is in charge of all homeland security and criminal justice agencies for Governor Spitzer. Previously, he served in both houses of the New York State Assembly.
He is the deputy secretary for public safety for the State of New York.
Michael Balboni joins us here tonight from the state's capital.
Good to have you here.
MICHAEL BALBONI, NEW YORK DEPUTY SECRETARY OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Thanks.
Thanks for having me, Mr. Dobbs.
DOBBS: Mr. Balboni, let me ask you straightforwardly. You voted for the previous driver's license arrangement, in which it was required a Social Security number -- validity and guarantee of presence in the State of New York.
Why would you change your mind about this issue on security -- on the basis of security for New York citizens?
BALBONI: That was a 1995 vote, when I was in the assembly. And the reason behind that vote was to make sure that you could get deadbeat dads to pay their child support. And, as a matter of fact, it wasn't just licenses we were talking about for driving. It was all sorts of licenses. And that has been interpreted by the lawyers as saying, no, no, you can give a license without requiring a Social Security number. If you had one, you should collect it.
DOBBS: All right. As you just heard -- I hope you just heard in Kitty Pilgrim's report, the movement among those states that have gone to -- that had given illegal aliens driver's licenses, either two- tiered or single-tiered, are going the other way now, calling for proof lawful presence in the state. Tennessee and North Carolina -- you know, the governor of Oregon is about to move in the other direction.
Are they wrong?
BALBONI: No. As a matter of fact, I hope that they'll join us because what we're doing right now is, first of all, we're the big -- the first big state to announce that we're going to do Real I.D.
DOBBS: Right.
BALBONI: That's really significant from a national perspective.
DOBBS: That's absolutely true.
BALBONI: Secondly, you know, secondly, we are going to require that a passport be presented from the undocumented alien population. Nobody else is doing that. And, as you know, a passport is much more secure than a Social Security number or a birth certificate -- which is what we use now to prove who you are to get a regular driver's license. So, from a security perspective...
DOBBS: Can I ask you something...
BALBONI: Sure.
DOBBS: The...
BALBONI: It's your show.
DOBBS: Well, it's our show, but I'm trying to be, you know, a nice, accommodating fellow.
BALBONI: You are.
Thank you.
DOBBS: As you are. And your boss could take lessons, by the way. I don't want to be too nice. The fact of the matter is, the governor said this morning on CNN that the director of homeland security approves this plan. In point of fact, the director of homeland security, Michael Chertoff, says clearly he does not believe illegal aliens should be given driver's licenses of any kind by any state.
BALBONI: Yes, Mr. Dobbs, let me go right to that, because there's been a lot of discussion about that. I was intimately involved with all of the aspects of that negotiation. And what Secretary Chertoff said specifically was he does not approve of giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses. And that is really from an immigration perspective, not a security perspective. Because think it through. How can (INAUDIBLE)...
DOBBS: I'm sorry, say that again.
BALBONI: How can (INAUDIBLE)... DOBBS: Say that again.
BALBONI: That is from an immigration perspective. I mean how could the man whose job it is...
DOBBS: All right.
Can you separate all of these perspectives for me?
I mean did he or did he not say he does not approve giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens?
BALBONI: He absolutely did. And in discussions with him, I'll tell you what he was thinking.
DOBBS: Ha!
BALBONI: And you can check back with him on this, but...
DOBBS: Well, you know...
BALBONI: What he basically said was -- well, let me just -- it's immigration.
DOBBS: Well, I'm...
BALBONI: And that's the truth. With security (INAUDIBLE)...
DOBBS: I'm going to have to -- really, I'm going to really have to constrain you on that one, if I may, Mr. Balboni, because if you can divine what he's thinking, you're doing something that's really remarkably superhuman.
BALBONI: Well, only based upon conversations...
DOBBS: I would prefer that we deal with the record.
I'm sorry?
BALBONI: But only based upon conversations I had with him for over -- almost, you know, a three day period.
DOBBS: You know, well, OK. Well, that's -- you know, I don't know what to say, but...
BALBONI: I mean I can tell you why he came to that conclusion if you (INAUDIBLE) a second.
DOBBS: Well, how about you tell me -- please. Please.
BALBONI: Essentially, what it is, when you combine the passport, you combine the digital photograph, you combine the photo imaging technology and the document verification technology, you have a residency requirement. And then you make sure that you do not give a license to anyone who is undocumented that doesn't say "not valid for federal purposes" or for anyone in the state license system. That's how you make it secure. And it's more secure than any of the other seven states are doing (INAUDIBLE)...
DOBBS: You're not going to the issue of the thinking of the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security or...
BALBONI: That's why he (INAUDIBLE)...
DOBBS: ...or the fact that there is a direct...
BALBONI: That's why he was standing...
DOBBS: Excuse me, sir. Or the fact that there is a direct...
BALBONI: Sure. Fine.
DOBBS: ...contradiction between what your boss said and what the Department of Homeland Security secretary said. That has nothing to do with it.
BALBONI: Well, I -- well, the whole purpose of them standing together was to show that this was really important for national security.
DOBBS: Yes. Yes. OK. I couldn't...
BALBONI: But (INAUDIBLE) the immigration side of it.
DOBBS: OK. Well, the fact that you don't agree is wonderful that your, you know, that Prince Eliot doesn't agree with King George. But the fact is, we have laws on the books here. They're not being enforced by the federal government and there is a requirement on the books and New York State law that a Social Security number has to be on that driver's license.
BALBONI: Actually, that's -- OK, that, again, is the dis -- a disagreement on what the law says. The law that I voted for said if you have a Social Security number, get it so that you can go after a deadbeat dad.
DOBBS: All right...
BALBONI: It did not say in order to get a driver's license, show a Social Security number.
But let me ask you, why is a Social Security number so important?
DOBBS: Well, because it's the only...
BALBONI: Why is that the big thing?
DOBBS: Here's one of the reasons, amongst others.
BALBONI: OK.
DOBBS: Social Security is the backbone -- a Social Security number is the backbone right now of determining validity of citizenship in the country. Is it the reason that it is being used by the -- by the Department of Homeland Security in its pilot program, which you know is used by employers to validate the legality of a person in the United States. It is also the only way to cross index between the Department of Internal Revenue Service, Social Security, to that end. And it is the only basis by which there could be a readily expedient, efficient way for election boards to crosscheck the lists to determine whether or not their voter roles were made up of people in this country lawfully and on those voter registration rolls lawfully.
That would be the answer I would give you.
BALBONI: Mr. Dobbs, its utility does not have to do anything with its security. In 2003, there is a report I can send you from the Pataki administration that talked about thousands of New Yorkers having multiple Social Security numbers.
DOBBS: Well, maybe I could direct you to the 9/11 Commission...
BALBONI: In fact, one number was held by 57 people.
DOBBS: Well, we both read the 9/11 Commission recommendations and I think you would find that instructive, as well, to the issue.
BALBONI: Well, now and let's talk about that.
Did the 9/11 recommendations talk about...
DOBBS: No. Let's talk about this...
BALBONI: The Real I.D. Act?
DOBBS: Why in the world does the governor want to take what is a two-tiered system that was working perfectly well -- New York's license perfectly -- considered perfectly secure, as anything can be perfectly secure at this point -- with a two-tiered license in which you can have a temporary date on that license?
Why would that be necessary to change for either purposes of security or immigration?
BALBONI: Well, I'm not sure what you're referring to in terms of a two-tier license right now in New York.
We have a one-tier. But the adoption of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and Real I.D. and then the state license, we'd now have three different license options for people.
DOBBS: No, I understand. I understand...
BALBONI: And, again...
DOBBS: I understand that -- I understand what the governor came up with this weekend to try to cover what is a complete reversal of what is a huge mess that he's created, which you are going to have the fun of picking up and cleaning up after. I don't think it's going to happen readily. The second part of that, I'm referring to the license before he -- it's not an executive order, but before the governor directed this change back five weeks ago.
BALBONI: Well, as you know, we took a look at it from one end to the other. And we decided that there was a way to make it more secure and more inclusive, because then it gets to the whole issue (INAUDIBLE)...
DOBBS: All right. More inclusive?
Why is it necessary...
BALBONI: ...what do we think the population...
DOBBS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
More inclusive of whom?
It's for New York citizens.
BALBONI: Of this population. Almost a million -- hang on a second. It's a million people. That's the estimate of people in New York...
DOBBS: A million people?
BALBONI: ...who are undocumented.
DOBBS: A million?
BALBONI: A million people.
DOBBS: A million illegal aliens?
BALBONI: So, here's the thing...
DOBBS: How do you know that?
BALBONI: That is the estimate. And better -- and, as you know better than anybody else, because you've been fighting this issue for so many years...
DOBBS: Yes.
BALBONI: ...that it's a much, much greater cost to the nation. And so they're here.
What do you think, if we don't give them this driver's license, they're all going to go home?
DOBBS: I mean what do you think, that you could...
BALBONI: I mean they've been here for a very long time.
DOBBS: What do you think, that if you give them a driver's license that that isn't de facto citizenship?
Is it one of the most arrogant...
BALBONI: That's not.
DOBBS: ...arrogant decisions taken by a state government...
BALBONI: Mr. Dobbs...
DOBBS: ...a federal -- the -- I mean it's just mind boggling.
I appreciate your defending your governor...
BALBONI: (INAUDIBLE).
DOBBS: Hey, look, I understand you're defending your boss.
BALBONI: But how about one other point?
DOBBS: But...
BALBONI: Just one other point.
DOBBS: Please.
BALBONI: One other point?
DOBBS: Go.
BALBONI: Just one quick one.
DOBBS: And then I really have to (INAUDIBLE).
BALBONI: If you give a driver's license to an individual...
DOBBS: You've had nine minutes.
You know what?
BALBONI: ...and they learn how to drive...
DOBBS: Michael Balboni, you know what?
BALBONI: They learn how to drive...
DOBBS: You've had nine minutes here. You've exhausted reason.
BALBONI: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: You've exhausted patience. And I suspect that your governor -- you'd better be beefing up, because I think you're going to have a lot of work to do to clean up his mess, because, frankly, not a bit of what you're saying...
BALBONI: Oh, (INAUDIBLE) the debate.
DOBBS: I'm sorry?
BALBONI: We still do have this debate, which is...
DOBBS: It's not...
BALBONI: (INAUDIBLE).
DOBBS: Why in the world wouldn't you guys at least have public hearings, by the way, before embarking on this arrogance...
BALBONI: We -- we're having a series of public hearings right now.
DOBBS: Yes, right now you are -- after you just got your...
BALBONI: We are, with the (INAUDIBLE) New York State Senate.
DOBBS: Just after you got reminded of the fact that you're public servants and not Prince and the Duke.
BALBONI: Well, remember, this doesn't take place tomorrow, by the way, Mr. Dobbs. It doesn't take place tomorrow. There's plenty of time to work...
DOBBS: No, it doesn't. It sure doesn't.
BALBONI: (INAUDIBLE)...
DOBBS: My guess is, I'll make you...
BALBONI: (INAUDIBLE).
DOBBS: I'll make you this bet. I think the people in New York have had a belly full of this kind of arrogant government and I think you're going to find that it doesn't take place, period. That would be my bet.
BALBONI: Well, you know what?
DOBBS: I bet the people prevail on this.
Well, we'll see how this works out.
DOBBS: Well, you and your elitist...
BALBONI: OK.
DOBBS: ...boss, I've got a -- I've got a feeling you're going to get a real advisory from the people, one that you can read as either an executive order from the folks or as just simply majority will.
Thanks a lot.
BALBONI: Thank you.
DOBBS: You're a good man to be here. BALBONI: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: You're a good example for your boss.
Coming up next, we'll have more on this issue and the battle between Congress and the president that's ongoing. We're not even sure what the world it's headed toward, but it's ongoing.
I'll be joined by four of the best radio talk show hosts in the country.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, four of the best radio talk show hosts in the country.
In North Carolina, Warren Ballentine of Syndication One.
Good to have you here.
WARREN BALLENTINE, SYNDICATION ONE: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: In Los Angeles, Doug McIntyre, KABC -- the inimitable Doug McIntyre.
DOUG MCINTYRE, KABC: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: In Chicago, Steve Cochran, WGN -- the hardest working man at -- well, at this particular hour on WGN.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's true. It's very true.
STEVE COCHRAN, WGN: Three hours a day, Lou. I don't quit.
DOBBS: You're the man.
And here in New York, Mark Simone, WABC Radio.
Let me ask you, Mark, to begin with, your governor...
MARK SIMONE, WABC IN NEW YORK: Oh, my -- now he's my governor.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: What in the world is this guy thinking about?
SIMONE: Let me tell you what upset me the most about Mr. Balboni. He made this statement. He said it's good we're having this debate. It's insane we're having this -- we're debating whether or not to enforce the law.
DOBBS: Oh, yes, but this...
SIMONE: Why are we debating this? DOBBS: Because we've got elitists like Eliot Spitzer, elected to office. They think it's their birthright. They've been prancing around in knickers on Fifth Avenue most of their lives...
SIMONE: Well...
(LAUGHTER).
DOBBS: ...and have never had any reason in the world to understand what the people are. They don't care what American citizens are or what New York citizens are. They think this is just a stepping stone on a political resume.
SIMONE: You know, he was never an executive. What got him elected was he was a prosecutor and he ran as a law and order guy would enforce the law. If some Wall Street guys were doing this, he would have been all over them.
There's laws he doesn't want to enforce?
COCHRAN: You know, there...
DOBBS: Yes?
COCHRAN: You know, Lou and Mark, you're both right. There's one underreported concern on this story. With a three-tiered driver's license system, you thought the DMV was a cranky experience before. You're going to be lucky to get out of that line alive.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Well, your governor there in Illinois kind of thinks this is a nifty idea, too, doesn't he?
COCHRAN: Well, what day is it?
(LAUGHTER)
COCHRAN: Listen, it does come down to the very simple common sense. If it says illegal in front of alien, then they shouldn't get licenses until they are legal.
DOBBS: Yes. End of discussion.
DOBBS: Oh, that kind of common sense...
MCINTYRE: Well, this got Gray Davis recalled in California. This is one of the big things they brought in.
DOBBS: Yes.
MCINTYRE: But, you know, you listen to these guys talk and you have to break out your politician to English dictionary and see what they really mean.
(LAUGHTER) MCINTYRE: But we've become veterans at this and we know what this means. This is the voter fraud act and the let's put...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MCINTYRE: ...professional drivers out of work act of 2007. That's why you can't give the dry cleaning truck to an illegal immigrant driver, because you can't get insurance or you'd have liability if there was an accident.
DOBBS: Right.
MCINTYRE: But if you legalize the illegal immigrant driver, then you can kiss all the professional driving jobs good-bye...
DOBBS: Yes.
MCINTYRE: ...or at least see what happened in the salary structure and what happened to the African-American drywallers (ph) in Los Angeles.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Drywallers in Los Angeles, the truck drivers throughout the country right now. It's coming down the road. But I think the major motivating force here on the part, certainly, of the Democratic Party, they're trying to set the stage for massive voter fraud. It is going -- as we advance to 2008.
Warren Ballentine, let me ask you this...
BALLENTINE: Yes, sir?
DOBBS: A blackout in America.
What do -- what do you mean?
BALLENTINE: I'm calling for a blackout for all American citizens just because of what we're talking about right here. I think the federal government and our local government has let us down with all these imports coming in, the mortgage crisis, the outsourcing of jobs, the injustices in the justice system. I mean we're really going back to state rights right now. And we've forgotten what the history of this country is, from the Boston Tea Party to the civil rights.
We've always protested when the government has done wrong. And I think they need a wake up call. I think we need to come together as Americans and say, look, enough is enough. You guys need to listen to what we're saying. Seventy-two percent of New Yorkers are against this. Yet this Prince -- like you like to call him -- wants to proceed anyway. It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ludicrous when you think of all the things that's going on -- including this war and how we as the American people are against these things, but our elected officials...
DOBBS: (INAUDIBLE)...
BALLENTINE: ...who we hire are doing everything they want to do.
COCHRAN: You know, and here's the thing. If anybody on the state or federal level proposes any legislation, he should stop and ask yourself, if I explain this to the average American and they stop and need to get Advil because you're giving them a headache, it's probably a bad bill.
(CROSSTALK)
COCHRAN: So we're taking the most simple -- keep it simple, stupid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
COCHRAN: And we know who stupid is in the picture.
BALLENTINE: Well, Lou, what's surprising to me with my listeners is how this has catch -- how this has caught fire. I mean it's all over the blogs. It's all over the Internet. I've had maybe 35 interviews in the past 24 hours. A lot of people are talking about the blackout. And at first, African-Americans were running with this. But now I have truckers, I have Caucasian listeners, Latino listeners. Everybody is calling in and saying, Warren, I totally agree with you. We need to do something. We need to show the government.
COCHRAN: Get involved. That's right.
DOBBS: You know what?
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTYRE: Well, I would say right now...
DOBBS: I'd hope we can get to the point.
MCINTYRE: I don't often offer financial advice, but I think the growth industry in America are pitch forks and flaming torches.
(LAUGHTER)
MCINTYRE: I'm serious. Because I really believe this, across the board there is such contempt for what is really a broken one party system...
DOBBS: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MCINTYRE: ...a party by, for and about lobbyists. And it's nauseating because...
DOBBS: Hallelujah, brother.
MCINTYRE: (INAUDIBLE).
DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more. SIMONE: Except our target here is government and governments -- not businesses. And a lot of businesses could get hurt by this.
DOBBS: Well, you know, I...
BALLENTINE: Well, this is the thing, I'm talking about...
DOBBS: What do you think, Warren?
BALLENTINE: I'm calling for the blackout not to hurt the businesses. In fact, what I've been saying is this. If you have to spend money November 2nd, buy American. Buy American. Support your own.
DOBBS: Good luck.
BALLENTINE: Because...
SIMONE: We'd have to go to another country to do so.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Where -- what in the world are you going to buy?
BALLENTINE: Hey, look, Lou, that's the -- that's the problem.
DOBBS: Besides a...
BALLENTINE: That's what...
DOBBS: Besides a cheeseburger.
BALLENTINE: That's the problem...
DOBBS: By the way, that's a very important thing.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I don't want to put down cheeseburgers. That's how I got in this condition.
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTYRE: Well, it all comes full circle. If we start making our pitchforks and burning clubs here in America, then we've got something.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Yes.
MCINTYRE: That's all I'm saying.
SIMONE: I wonder if those pitchforks are made in China now.
(LAUGHTER) BALLENTINE: And they have lead poison in on them.
DOBBS: We're going to take a quick break here, gentlemen.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Just give me two seconds.
We're going to first go to my colleague, Wolf Blitzer, to tell us what he has coming up in the next hour -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Thanks very much, Lou.
Hillary Clinton, a favorite target of Republican candidates, tonight will criticizing her pay off for the Democrats?
Plus, what her husband just said to defend her.
Also, another hunting trip and another controversy for the vice president, Dick Cheney. This time it's over a confederate flag.
Mike Huckabee could be a force in Iowa. He's surging in the polls right now, but he's also getting criticism from all sides -- even his own party. Tonight, he's taking on his opponents here in "THE SITUATION ROOM".
Lou, all that and a lot more coming up.
DOBBS: Thanks very much.
Let's turn to this political race. You were talking about protests. Warren, which of these candidates are you most excited about right now, Democrat or Republican?
BALLENTINE: Well, you know, on the Republican side, if I was going to vote Republican, it would definitely be for Ron Paul. I think he has more of a conservative view and more of a historical point of view (INAUDIBLE) Republicans.
DOBBS: And Democrat?
BALLENTINE: For the Democrats, I'm excited about Barack Obama simply because he talks about inclusion. And that's the key here, Lou. Everybody has to come to the table.
DOBBS: All right.
And Doug McIntyre?
MCINTYRE: Well, Lou, this might sound odd, but I'm -- I'm actually deliberately trying not to pay attention to anything any of them say...
(LAUGHTER)
MCINTYRE: ...because, to me, it's like just anti-aircraft fire, at this point.
DOBBS: Steve Cochran, I know you've got to be excited.
COCHRAN: Oh, I'm thrilled. Look at me. Actually, the truth of the matter is, I want a race. We just had a four game sweep in the World Series. We want a race. There's no upside to this early primary nonsense and knowing who's going to run three minutes after Iowa finishes up. So we just want a race...
DOBBS: Yes, that's (INAUDIBLE)...
COCHRAN: And when it comes to the big questions internationally, I do like what Joe Biden has to say.
SIMONE: Well, you need a super executive -- that's Romney, if you want to fix broken government. However, if you want broken borders fixed, you need a guy like Rudy Giuliani. He got rid of crime in New York. He says he'll do it with the border.
DOBBS: Oh, boy, we've got some wonderful choices.
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTYRE: ...major open border guy.
DOBBS: We thank you all for -- for being with us and straightening us all out on this...
(CROSSTALK)
COCHRAN: Yes, I'm glad we solved it.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, thank you very much.
Coming up next, we'll have our poll results. And it's worth waiting for, believe me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Bulletin for Prince Eliot -- 98 percent of our respondents in tonight's poll say it is not racist to enforce U.S. immigration laws, as Governor Spitzer would have it.
Carl in Nevada, he wrote in to say: "Lou, I just mailed three forms to change to Independent for myself, wife and daughter. When I called for the forms and told the clerk my whole family would become Independent voters, the clerk asked me if I was a Lou Dobbs fan. Of course, I said you bet."
We thank you.
And we thank you for that new registration. Good night from New York.
"THE SITUATION ROOM" begins now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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