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Your World Today
Verdicts in Terrorism Trial Spark Controversy in Spain; Democratic Challengers Sharpen Attacks on Frontrunner Clinton; Chadian Women Protest Alleged Abduction Attempt
Aired October 31, 2007 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: ... for the 2004 Madrid train bombings.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: The frontrunner, Senator Hillary Clinton, bears the brunt of some attacks as Democratic presidential hopefuls debate in Philadelphia.
GORANI: The friendly skies, or is it? Congress demands answers from NASA after it conducts a secret survey of pilots.
HOLMES: And a school touched by scandal. Police investigate allegations of abuse at a South African girls academy founded by the U.S. mega star Oprah Winfrey.
5:00 p.m. right now in Madrid, it is noon in Washington. Welcome to our report seen all around the globe.
I'm Michael Holmes.
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani.
From Johannesburg to Philadelphia, wherever you are watching, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.
HOLMES: Well, the terrorism trial is over in Madrid, but the controversy certainly lingers.
GORANI: Well, only three of the eight major defendants were found guilty of mass murder in the 2004 commuter train bombings that left 191 people dead.
HOLMES: Yes. The most notorious defendant, an Egyptian man who bragged he was the mastermind behind the worst terrorist attacks on European soil, won't be spending any time in a Spanish jail.
GORANI: Now, all together, there were 28 defendants.
Russell Hookey has more on the verdict and the uproar that followed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RUSSELL HOOKEY, REPORTER, ITV NEWS (voice over): Screamed live on Spanish television, this was the trial of those believe to have carried out Spain's worst terrorist atrocity. Twenty-one people were found guilty today of involvement with the bombings of busy rush hour commuter trains in March 2004 which killed 191 passengers and injured 1,800.
This CCTV footage shows the moment one of the bombs exploded, ripping apart the carriage and the deadliest attack carried out in Europe in the name of al Qaeda. It was an atrocity which reshaped Spanish politics with a massive electoral backlash against a conservative government which had taken the country into the highly unpopular war with Iraq.
One of those who masterminded the attack, Moroccan Jamal Zougam, was sentenced to a total of 40,000 years, although under Spanish law will serve a maximum of 40. Seven of the 28 accused of involvement with the plot were acquitted. All those found guilty today pleaded innocent and are now expected to appeal against their sentences.
Russell Hookey, ITV News.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Will the verdict provide much sought closure for Spain, or will they just reopen old wounds?
Let's got some answers. We turn to our international security correspondent, Paula Newton. She's coming to us live from Madrid.
What has been the reaction in Spain? Several convicted but several more acquitted, Paula.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There has been some shock, and that is from the people, the people who really felt this in terms of what the verdict would be. As you said, Hala, people were looking for closure, the survivors, the victims' families, and they didn't get that.
And as we heard in the courtroom, there were gasps. They were in shock. They were trying to figure out why only three of the eight main suspects would have been convicted of those mass murders.
You know, later, Hala, we're told they had a private session with the chief justice who explained a lot about what could be included as evidence, evidence that you can convict someone on, and everything else that was peripheral to this trial. They said that that gave them some measure of understanding, but not relief.
They are still going to try and thrash this out, certainly within the courts. We spoke with the prosecutor afterwards who said that she was not disappointed at all but what continue to look at those acquittals and see if she could appeal.
They have very mixed emotions here, Hala. And if we have to say, it really did bring up some very, very bad memories in this city, in this country, with absolutely no resolution.
GORANI: Now, why were those who were acquitted, according to whose who've observed this trial over the last few months, acquitted? Was it the fact that there was no forensic evidence linking those suspects to the actual bombings in 2004, just circumstantial?
NEWTON: A lot of it was circumstantial. Some was forensic.
The problem is, when you deal with the circumstantial evidence, as we've been saying, especially when you go to the case of Ahmed, who is sitting now in an Italian jail, a lot of the evidence they had against him, and the reason he was acquitted, it came from wiretaps. Hala, a lot of legal experts are telling us to look at this trial and there are a lot of lessons that can be learned.
This kind of evidence is very, very sensitive, and it doesn't always lead to convictions, where prosecution wants to see a conviction or where victims' families want to see convictions. They are very difficult cases to prove. And that's why, as the prosecutor said to us, even convicting three of the eight masterminds and having 21 of 28 convicted of some charges, she feels, is a historical milestone.
Victims and their families saying otherwise. They were hoping for so much more.
GORANI: All right.
Paula Newton, live in Madrid on the reaction and those verdicts in the Madrid train bombings of 2004.
Thank you -- Mike.
HOLMES: Myanmar's monks are reportedly taking to the streets again. More than 100 Buddhist monks are said to have marched in northern Myanmar. In fact, in the same town where last month's protests began.
Witnesses say the monks chanted prayers which they did before in the previous protest, but they weren't shouting any political slogans. This came after a massive pro-junta rally. As many as is 110 people, including 40 monks, are believed to have been killed when the government broke up peaceful protests last month.
GORANI: It's not often you see one nation's president directly confronting another nation's troops, but it happened Tuesday in a startling encounter involving the president of the Republic of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili. He walked right up to a Russian commander and ordered him off Georgian soil. The dispute centers on Octavia (ph), a territory claimed by Georgia but that is patrolled by Russian peacekeepers.
It was chaotic, and a scuffle ensued. At one point, Russian troops pointed their weapons at the Georgian delegation. Mr. Saakashvili -- remember, the president of the Republic of Georgia -- became angered after several Georgian police reportedly were detained and then subsequently beaten by Russian troops. They were later released.
HOLMES: Extraordinary scenes.
GORANI: A lot of tension there.
HOLMES: Yes.
Well, the Democratic frontrunner in the U.S. presidential race, we know who that is. But at Tuesday's debate in Philadelphia, Hillary Clinton served really as the target for her challengers.
GORANI: Well, they sharpened their attacks in a pointed effort to gain ground just two months before primary season starts.
CNN Senior Political Correspondent Candy Crowley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, first of all, I think...
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Barack Obama called it the most hyped fight since Rocky versus Apollo Creed, after which he took a jab at what he called politically convenient politics.
OBAMA: And Senator Clinton, in her campaign, I think, has been for NAFTA previously. Now she's against it. She has taken one position on torture several months ago and then most recently has taken a different position. She voted for a war, to authorize sending troops into Iraq, and then later said this was a war for diplomacy.
CROWLEY: Looking to change the dynamics of a race dominated by Hillary Clinton, her chief rivals stepped it up in their seventh debate, questioning her consistency, her credibility, her elect ability.
SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Whether it's fair or not fair, the fact of the matter is that my colleague from New York, Senator Clinton, there's 50 percent of the American public that say they're not going to vote for her.
CROWLEY: It was not the knockdown-dragout so many predicted, but it was pointed. John Edwards wielded the sharpest blade, standing by his accusation of double talk.
JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Clinton says that she believes she can be the candidate for change, but she defends a broken system that's corrupt in Washington, D.C. She says she will end the war, but she continues to say she will keep combat troops in Iraq and continue combat missions in Iraq.
CROWLEY: There was an edge to her, but Clinton played the frontrunner's game. Refusing to engage with her Democratic opponents, she was aiming higher.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because I have stood against George Bush and his failed policies. They want to continue the war in Iraq, I want to end it. The Republicans are waving their sabers and talking about going after Iran. I want to prevent a rush to war.
CROWLEY: It is nearly impossible for a single debate to fundamentally change things, but this one kicked up enough dust for Bill Richardson to step in to defend Clinton. He suggested things were getting a little personal. Democrats, he said, should be positive.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Philadelphia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Police in the United States say a boy playing with matches has admitted to accidentally starting one of those massive fires in southern California last week. The so-called Buckweed Fire charred more than 38,000 acres -- that's around 15,000 hectares -- and destroyed 21 houses, injured two firefighters who were battling the blaze.
Authorities are still trying to figure out what to do with the boy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY MOORE, L.A. COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTY: I'm certain they would look at, you know, the total destruction, everything, but they'd also look at it as far as the legal standards and whether or not it fits those standards to bring charges against the juvenile.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: And still no word as yet on the boy's age or his identity.
GORANI: A new in-depth health study says that your risk of getting cancer is directly linked to the size of your waistline. The study conducted by the World Cancer Research Fund says the risk of cancer decreases when you're as thin as possible without being underweight. That's been known for some time, but this study is very specific in its recommendations.
The study also says that cancer risks increase if you often have sugary drinks, alcohol and eat red meat, bacon and ham. But the study also states that only one third of cancer cases are related to lifestyle. Many cases are still related to heredity.
HOLMES: All right.
You're watching YOUR WORLD TODAY.
GORANI: Ahead this hour, were they child rescuers or child kidnappers? The arrest of 16 Europeans in Chad raises new questions over the inner workings of child rescue operations.
HOLMES: Also, near misses, bird strikes, air traffic control errors, all supposedly contained in a NASA report on the U.S. aviation system. So why is NASA keeping the report secret? GORANI: And turnabout is fair play in Iraq, especially when it involves former insurgents who now pledge to enforce and uphold the law.
We'll look into that.
Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Welcome back, everyone. You are with CNN International and YOUR WORLD TODAY.
HOLMES: Yes. And a special welcome to our viewers joining us in the United States this hour.
GORANI: Let's turn now to a scandal involving the fate of 103 children in the African nation of Chad and the 16 Europeans, including aid workers, who are accused of trying to abduct them.
HOLMES: Yes. Hundreds of angry Chadian women took to the streets in protests today, hurling stones at westerners, with some shouting "No!" to the slave trade and "No!" to child traffickers.
GORANI: The case is causing concern in France, the home of the charity at the center of this controversy. It's called Zoe's Ark.
Jim Bittermann has the story from Paris.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They claim they were only trying to help, but members of the French charity Zoe's Ark, the Spanish air crew that flew them, and French journalist who were covering them, now face charges of kidnapping and complicit to kidnap. At the center of the charges, 103 children who were about to be flown out of Chad and placed in the care of families in France.
The charity says they're orphans of war from Darfur, but Chadian authorities and some of the older children tell a different story, saying that they were not from Darfur and were taken from their parents. The president of Chad says it was a mass kidnap and even accused those under arrest of being a part of on pedophile ring or trafficking in organs for transplant.
Back in France, families who were to host the incoming children were outraged at the charges, saying they were interested only in the welfare of those caught up in war. Some reportedly paid more than $8,000 each to sponsor a child and believed all the children were orphans.
But a French government minister called the group's action illegal and irresponsible and said Zoe's Ark was warned months ago that what it was doing could contravene Chadian law. What's more, in video shot the day before the arrests by one of the jailed journalists, members of the group are openly contemptuous of the law, saying, "Rules, regulations, what regulations?" Other charities were critical of Zoe's Ark and its founder, a former volunteer fireman, saying its aggressive action may jeopardize the fragile political environment in which they work in Chad.
In the French parliament, the prime minister condemned the group's action, in part because it could be used as a pretext by Chad to block the upcoming deployment of 4,000 European troops being dispatched to stabilize the humanitarian situation, something President Sarkozy has worked hard to achieve.
ANTOINE GLASER, AFRICA SPECIALIST: It could really completely blow up its own operation that you wanted to start in the next month, in a few days, really.
BITTERMANN (on camera): Lawyers for the charity, the seven- member flight crew and the three journalists all say the charges against their clients are unjustified. But that's now something up to judges in Chad to determine, and if they should rule against the defendants, the penalty could be up to 20 years in jail at hard labor.
Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Well, Chad has assured western aid agencies that this case will not affect their operations in the country.
And joining us now for some perspective on all of this is Jacqueline Bhabha, director of Harvard University's Committee on Human Rights Studies.
You k now, I've got to tell you, this is just simply stunning, some of these allegations. There are reports that some of these children said they weren't orphans. They were lured with sweets.
How does all of this strike you?
JACQUELINE BHABHA, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I think the facts on the case are clearly complicated, and I don't have a clear picture whether this was a malicious attempt to kidnap the children or whether it was a misconceived humanitarian mission. My original inclination was certainly that it was a humanitarian mission, which didn't take into account what international law provides. But the new information coming out certainly is troubling.
Certainly, the fact that UNICEF and other reputable organizations say that on the evidence so far, many of the children, A, are not orphans, B, are not from Darfurian, but a Chadian, and, C, that some of them actually were taken away from families, is very concerning.
HOLMES: And, of course, both Sudan, as you alluded to there, Sudan and Chad, banned international adoptions of their children. But what sort of oversight is there on aid organizations working in this sort of field? BHABHA: There's quite a sophisticated body of international law which governs the situations in which children can be removed from one country to another. Basically, what international law says is that both the country of origin of the child, and the country of destination, or the country where the parents are, have to certify that the adoption is legal. So the country of origin has to certify that the child is adoptable, first of all, that the child's parents have consented, or that the child has no parents. And secondly, that it's in the best interests of the child to be moved.
And at the same time, the country of destination has to certify that the place that the child is going to is a reasonable one for a child, so that the parents or the familiar have been vetted and they are suitable. And only in those circumstances is inter-country adoption lawful.
There are also international rules about abduction. And basically, these rules are designed to, first of all, protect the best interests of the child, however one thinks of that. And secondly, to make sure that countries work together rather than against each other in coming to this arrangement.
HOLMES: And of course, you know, even the French Foreign Ministry says it warned the group what it was about to do was illegal. It all just seems so odd.
Tell me what you think could be the damage done to other aid agencies and how they are able to operate. Chad has said that everything is going to be fine, but could there be fallout from this, do you think?
BHABHA: There certainly could be fallout. I hope there won't be, because given the serious situation in that region, it would be too bad if a misconceived and rather infantile mission really prejudiced the desperate need for aid in that area. So one can only hope that the judicial process takes its course and that diplomatic initiatives are up to the task of resolving this.
I think it would be really a double tragedy if this incident meant that desperately needed humanitarian aid was even shorter -- in shorter supply on the ground.
HOLMES: Appreciate your insights.
Jacqueline Bhabha, director of Harvard University's Committee on Human Rights Studies joining us from Boston.
Thanks again.
GORANI: This is YOUR WORLD TODAY. We're live around the globe this hour.
Still ahead, our eye is on the Federal Reserve, expected to cut a key interest rate today. We'll have a live report on what to expect.
HOLMES: Also, a well-loved talk show host apologizes for abuse allegations at an academy she founded. Oprah Winfrey, abused as a child herself, launches an investigation into her own school in South Africa.
Stay with us.
(NEWSBREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Welcome back to our viewers from around the globe, including the United States. This is YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Michael Holmes.
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Here are some of the top stories we are following.
HOLMES: The Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, and his delegation scuffled -- you can see it there -- with Russian troops. This happened in the disputed Georgia border region of Appazzia (ph), which both Georgia and Russia claim. Mr. Saakashvili confronted the troops after hearing reports of several Georgian police were detained and beaten.
GORANI: Also in the headlines, more than 100 Buddhist monks marched in northern Myanmar again, in the same town where last month's protests began. The military government squelched those nationwide protests by force.
HOLMES: A mixed verdict in the Madrid bombing trial involving 28 defendants; of the eight main defendants, three were convicted of mass murder. The other main defendants were found guilty of lesser charges, or acquitted.
GORANI: It is easy enough to look at those results as if they're a score, five acquittals on the most serious charge and only three convictions. But who were the defendants? One of them might surprise you. Jonathan Mann had some insight.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Rabei Osman Sayed Ahmed was in big trouble, accused of 191 counts of murder and 1,755 counts of attempted murder. He may have been the most interesting and obvious of the defendants because he had already been on trial and convicted in Italy. He was said to have confessed on tape.
But in Spain today, he was found not guilty. Ahmed was known as Mohammed the Egyptian and had reportedly trained to use explosives in the Egyptian army. He was considered to be suspicious by police in Germany and in France long before the bombings. After the bombings Spanish police picked up his trail in Italy, where they asked for help.
The Italians wired tapped his apartment in Milan, his phone, even his computer and had dozens of police watching him come and go and listening in. A leaked Italian police report suggested they learned a lot about him because he talked too much. He talked to people he was trying to recruit as suicide bombers and he boasted about the bombings in Madrid.
"I am the thread," he said, "behind the Madrid plot. I wanted to plan it so it would be something unforgettable."
During his trial in Spain, his lawyer said the tape was mistranslated and Osman denied any part in the plot.
"I never had any relation to the events which occurred in Madrid. I condemn these attacks," he said," he said, "unconditionally."
The prosecutors in his first trial, in Italy said they had a tough case because there wasn't much physical evidence tying him to crimes, mostly just talk about suicide bombings, about Madrid and ominously about upcoming attacks. It was still enough to convict him in Italy on terror charges. It wasn't enough in Spain. Osman isn't going free, though. He is in jail in Italy, with years left to serve. Back to you.
HOLMES: Jonathan Mann there. Thanks, Jon.
An apparent about-face from NASA today on a study about airline safety. Officials previously indicated they wouldn't release the study which includes some pretty shocking findings, apparently, in which first come to light in media reports. Then came questions from Congress. Our Kathleen Koch is on Capitol Hill.
An explosive sort of report but nobody initially wanted to release, Kathleen?
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Quite so, Michael.
Lawmakers will, in about an hour, be grilling NASA Administrator Michael Griffin about this major survey of pilots that it completed two years ago, that certainly did reveal some potentially serious safety problems.
It was a survey of some 24,000 commercial pilots, 5,000 general aviation pilots, and it found twice as many bird strikes, near midair collisions and runway incursions occurring than government -- current government monitoring systems show. Now, also pilots reported a higher-than-expected number of last-minute changes in their landing plans which can be potentially dangerous.
NASA refused to release the findings. And they said they were worried it would hurt public confidence in the airline industry. They even asked the data be destroyed, but last week when this became public Congress was not happy, lawmakers intervened, so not only has that data not been destroyed, but the NASA administrator, I'm told, will say today that the quite findings will be released, quote, "as soon as possible." But he will not give an exact date.
Now, the Federal Aviation Administration maintains its current system for reporting close calls, whether on the ground or in the air, works just fine. And that it is getting what it considers accurate information. It also has issues with the methodology that NASA used in the survey. Some of the terms it used in quizzing pilots were not the same as those that are normally used in the industry.
So, Michael, that can be one reason they say why some of these incident numbers don't match up. Michael, back to you.
HOLMES: What, meanwhile, are the pilots saying about this? So many of them are interviewed, so many of their beliefs, their views not publicized yet. What are they saying?
KOCH: Very interesting, Michael. Testifying today will be a spokesman for the Airline Pilots Association and they're actually opposing the release of the raw data. Since word of this survey, though, came out last week I have personally spoken with several pilots about it. What they tell me is that to them the numbers ring true. They say it's often debatable how close two planes actually come to one another, whether on the air, or on the ground. They say a lot depends on your perspective, so one pilot's midair collision maybe nothing from another pilot's point of view.
Again, same thing with these incidents on the runways, so, without that certainty, pilots tell me that they often aren't inclined to report every single incident that occurs, only the most serious. Important to point out every airline does have systems to report incidents anonymously so the pilot won't be punish, but that takes time and energy filing those reports. So, pilots say, at the end of a long day, sometimes they just aren't up to it.
HOLMES: All right, Kathleen, we will see how this one plays out. Kathleen Koch, there in Washington, thanks.
GORANI: The U.S. military calls it a big success story in Iraq. Sunni tribes, formerly Al Qaeda allies, are now fighting alongside the United States. Military against the Islamic militants. Now the U.S. is moving to integrate some of these Sunni men into Iraqi security forces, but is the predominantly Shiite government ready to extend a welcoming hand to those individuals? Frederik Pleitgen has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDRIK PLEITGEN, CNN INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Mahmoud Abdul Assad (ph) is a cop, manning a guard post in Fallujah, a former Al Qaeda stronghold. His presence here, he says, is paying off.
"I've met people who say thank you for searching us. It is so much better here than in the past," he tells a comrade. "It was only a few weeks ago that Mahmoud kissed his family good-bye and left them -- for this.
DONLON E. MCGOVERN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: And you answer me, you will answer me, you'll answer me like a man.
PLEITGEN: An eight-day crash course at Fallujah's police academy. Mahmoud (ph) belongs to a Sunni tribe that only until a few months ago fought the Americans, but has now joined U.S. forces in the battle against Al Qaeda. As part of an independent militia, initially, but now Mahmoud is one of the first to officially join the Iraqi police, leaving some of the instructors unsure where his loyalties lie.
(On camera): Do you trust them?
MCGOVERN: No, I don't trust them.
PLEITGEN: Why?
MCGOVERN: Why? I don't know these guys. Some of them have family that, you know, have shot at us, tried to kill us.
PLEITGEN (voice over): Mahmoud (ph) was what the U.S. military deems to be a so-called good insurgent. Now, the instructors here are teaching him and dozens of other Sunni tribesmen to shoot at those they call bad insurgents.
And that's not all. In only eight days, recruits are supposed to learn to storm houses, stop vehicles at checkpoints and, they hope, arrest insurgents before they can strike. The Shia-led central government is wary of this bid to integrate Sunnis into the Shia- dominated Iraqi security force. But Mahmoud says it will work.
"The benefit is great. God willing, we'll rad indicate terrorism," he says.
How do you feel, we ask him.
"I feel I'm a courageous man," he answers.
On the last day, Mahmoud and the others receive their degrees. As he returns home, Mahmoud, in many ways, is a different man. Respected by his family but now a target for Al Qaeda insurgents.
A police officer with rudimentary training will have to prove his long-term commitment to a Shia-dominated government reluctant to trust the loyalty of the Sunni tribes. Frederik Pleitgen, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Just ahead, gunning for Hillary.
HOLMES: Yes, the race for the democratic presidential nomination is heating up. We are in candidates facing Senator Clinton decide to gang up on the front-runner.
GORANI: And later, talk show queen Oprah Winfrey puts her legendary communication skills to the test by saying, I'm sorry. We'll tell you why. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Rudy Giuliani, probably the most under-qualified man since George Bush to seek the presidency, is here talking about any of the people here. Rudy Giuliani. Think about it. Rudy Giuliani -- there's only three things he mentioned in his sentence, a noun, a verb, and 9/11. There's nothing else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. Going on the attack against one of the Republican front-runners for the presidential race of 2008, Rudy Giuliani.
Welcome back. You're with YOUR WORLD TODAY on CNN International.
HOLMES: Seen live in more than 200 countries and territories across the globe.
You had a little bit of flavor there from last night's face off between Democratic hopefuls for the White House.
GORANI: That's right. You saw Senator Joe Biden there. Next year, at this time, Americans will be getting ready to go to the polls to elect a president.
HOLMES: Another whole year away. The presidential election is 12 months away and the polls are getting more interesting.
GORANI: Here are the latest figures from a national poll conducted by Quinnipiac University, showing the Republican front- runner, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani leads Democratic front- runner Senator Hillary Clinton, but you see it there, only just 45 percent against 43 percent.
HOLMES: And there is just a 2-point difference between them, as you just heard. Just the opposite results from the same poll back in August.
GORANI: But perhaps more intriguing, Democratic Barack Obama came out slightly ahead of Giuliani, 43 versus 42 percent.
HOLMES: Republican Senator John McCain came out even when matched up against Senator Clinton.
GORANI: All right. It's a close race no matter how you look at it with regards to a potential face-off between the Democratic and the Republican front-runners. This presidential race has been going on for quite some time now, and it's another year until a new president is elected. The battle for the Democratic nominee is all but over. Let's find out what Jim's Vandehei's take is; he's the executive editor of Politico.com.
Thanks for being with us. I was seeing on our Web site, Politico.com, Clinton gives worst performance yet of her campaign. Clinton bombs debate. Why is that?
JIM VANDEHEI, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, POLITICO.COM: I think the universal opinion among Democrats who watched the debate felt like this was probably her worst performance. Mostly, I think because it amplified the concerns that a lot of voters have about Hillary Clinton, about whether she has crystal clear views on the big issues like Social Security, immigration, or what to do with Iran or whether she does what people feel is politically expedient.
In politics when you do things or say things that amplify a negative perception of you, it tends to hurt. What you see today is this new enthusiasm with Edwards, and with Obama, and with those others that want to knock Hillary off that front-runner status. They see this enthusiasm that they think they have finally found a weak link. That they have finally found a way to attack Hillary that might be effective.
Now, there's no reason to think that absolutely will take place. She has done so well throughout the course of this campaign, and her poll numbers remain very strong, both in early states, and nationally.
GORANI: All right, Jim, let's listen. Let's get a flavor of that Democratic debate yesterday, where the Democratic presidential hopeful did gang up on the front-runner, Hillary Clinton. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think this has been the most hyped fight since Rocky fought Apollo Creed, although the amazing thing is I'm Rocky in this situation.
(LAUGHTER)
But --
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Clinton says that she believes she can be the candidate for change. But she defends a broken system, that's corrupt in Washington, D.C.
SEN. CHRIS DODD (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Whether it's fair or not fair, the fact of the matter is that my colleague from New York, Senator Clinton, there are 50 percent of the American public who say they are not going to vote for her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right. So, there you have accusations. She's not elect-able, she represents the old guard establishment of Washington, D.C. Is this a strategy that's going to work for her opponents?
VANDEHEI: Vandehei It's probably the most effective strategy that they can use against her because what they want to say is that she cannot beat a Republican. Democrats want to win right now. They're desperate to see change in Washington. Most people are unhappy with the performance of the Democratic Congress, and that includes Democrats, because they feel like there hasn't been the kind of change they would like to see.
They want to see an end to the war, they want to see an emphasis on peace and not the use of force in dealing with Iran and dealing with other problems. They want to see just a different Washington. So, if Democratic candidates can successfully paint Hillary Clinton as just part of Washington, and not an agent of change I think that does play well with the Democratic base. But, so far, that has not proven successful. Despite what happened in last night's debate, this has been an attack line we have heard with some consistency for some time, and it does not seem to result in any erosion of her support.
GORANI: You might get the sense, and you might be forgiven for saying that her lead appears unassailable at this -- I mean, what is her strategy? She mentioned Bush 24 times. That's more than every other candidate combined at the Democratic debate, so her strategy is going after the symbol of the Bush administration, the big man himself, and paying less attention to those who are trying to get the nomination.
VANDEHEI: Right. She likes to say she is the one who can beat a Republican and get a Democratic into the White House. And that she's also tough, that she's tough enough to take on Republicans. And there's no better whipping boy than George W. Bush in Democratic politics. But her strategy, right now, is to both do well nationally so the fundraising money continues to flow in, but it's also to do really well in those early states.
You know, when Iowa votes, she knows it's very important that she win in Iowa or perform very strongly in Iowa because the minute that Obama or John Edwards does better than people think, then all of a sudden there's all this media attention, as the alternative to Hillary Clinton. And she wants to end this process, end it clean, and end it quickly.
GORANI: All right, let's listen quickly, to another portion of the debate, where the Democratic presidential hopefuls were criticizing Hillary Clinton for voting on a resolution that called the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist group. Let's listen to how she responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm also not in favor of doing nothing. Iran is seeking nuclear weapons and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is in the forefront of that, as they are in the sponsorship of terrorism.
EDWARDS: The way you put pressure on this administration is you stand up to them -- you say no.
OBAMA: This kind of resolution does not send the right signal to the region. It doesn't send the right signal to our allies, or our enemies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right. What do you make of that? Will that play well with the Democratic base, do you think?
VANDEHEI: Well, it's clearly not playing well with the Democratic base, but I think it might play well with the most voters here in America. What -- I guess what is the Democratic alternative? When you have evidence that Iran is supplying weapons that are being used to kill our soldiers in Iraq, and you know that they're trying to acquire a nuclear weapon, Democrats have to come up with a strategy for confronting that.
And what Hillary Clinton is saying is you have to apply steady pressure. She agrees with most Democrats that no, we don't want to go to war, and we certainly don't want to give President Bush a blank check to go to war. But she's saying you have to apply steady and stern pressure or the Iranian regime simply will not listen.
Democratic activists hate that message because they don't trust Bush and they don't trust Republicans. They think that any resolution -- and it's a non-binding resolution -- I might emphasize. They think any resolution that allows him to do anything more than he's already doing is nothing more than an invitation to war. Hillary Clinton says that's nonsense.
GORANI: We have to leave it there, Jim Vandehei, of Politico.com. Thanks so much for your knowledge.
VANDEHEI: Enjoy the day.
GORANI: Thank you. You, too.
HOLMES: Politics can be scary at the best of times, especially on Halloween.
GORANI: Tonight's the night kids dress up as the scariest thing they can think of. For some people, this is it. Hillary Clinton was once again the number one choice when people were asked which U.S. presidential candidate would make the scariest Halloween costume. The next scariest, well, Republican front-runner Rudy Giuliani. In fact, no other candidate came close to those two in the poll. I wonder how much it's a reflection of how the national race will shape up in the coming months.
HOLMES: That's just mean.
(LAUGHTER)
GORANI: They're the two front-runners so far.
All right now to a more serious story from South Africa.
HOLMES: Yes, charges of abuse against young girls became very personal for Oprah Winfrey.
GORANI: Ahead on YOUR WORLD TODAY, a victim of abuse herself, Winfrey investigates charges at the academy she founded. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Welcome back, everyone.
It was meant, originally, as a gesture of goodwill. HOLMES: But now the American talk show host, Oprah Winfrey, is apologizing as authorities investigate allegations of abuse at the school she founded for disadvantaged girls in South Africa.
Robyn Curnow is in South Africa and has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Last year, Embarley Mares (ph) was doing her homework in a shack in a Johannesburg township. This year she's been studying and living in a room like this, one of the lucky girls to win a place at Oprah Winfrey's leadership academy. The $14-million school built by the U.S. talk show host. Herself, once a poor girl from a disadvantaged background.
OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: I look in their faces, I see my own. With girls who came from a background just like my own. I was raised by a grandmother, no running water, no electricity, but yet because of a sense of education and learning I was able to become who I am.
CURNOW: Which is why Winfrey, who's acknowledged publicly that she was abused as a child, issued a statement saying there's "Nothing more serious or devastating to me than an allegation of misconduct by an adult against any girl at the academy."
The school and the South African police are being tight-lipped about the details of the case.
SUPT. LUNGELO DLAMINI, SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE: The U.N. is investigating a case of abuse against the children at the school.
CURNOW: Police will not say if the abuse is sexual or physical, but confirmed their investigation is based on a report given to them by a U.S. private investigator and social workers hired by Winfrey.
DLAMINI: The report given by the different experts was handed to us and then based on those reports we analyzed it, and we came to the conclusion that there were criminal elements, and we authorized the case for investigation.
CURNOW: Oprah's representatives say she flew to South Africa twice in the past month to meet with parents at the school. Reporter Gavin Prins spoke with some of them.
GAVIN PRINS, RAPPORT NEWSPAPER: She just broke down in tears and said I failed you. I failed you. And I apologize.
CURNOW: But parents say they still support Oprah.
(On camera): It seems in spite of Oprah Winfrey's best intentions there has been a lot of negative publicity associated with this school since it opened. Over the past academic year, the South African media has exposed what they say is a long list of criticisms and problems at the school. (Voice over): Among the reports, parents complaining about only being allowed to visit their daughters once a month; criticism also that the school is too strict. For now, though, as the academy weathers this crisis, they say they are just trying to protect the girls, who have been entrusted into their care. Robyn Curnow, CNN, Johannesburg, South Africa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: That's it for this hour. I'm Michael Holmes.
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with us. There's a lot more ahead right here on CNN.
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