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Out in the Open

Interview With Mississippi Congressman Bennie Thompson; Crackdown in Pakistan Continues

Aired November 06, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And knucklehead may be the perfect word to describe what we're about to talk about: a government employee who handles immigration reportedly making fun of black people here.
Let me create the image for you, all right? Shows up at a Halloween party wearing a version of blackface, fake dreadlocks and a prison jumpsuit. And his boss, who is the head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, commends him for the originality of his costume. She actually poses for a picture with him.

But now those photos have apparently been mysteriously deleted. And we have just learned that Congress may investigate this as a cover-up. We have called the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, who has oversight over ICE. And he is going to be talking to us in just a little bit.

But, first, let's get right to our homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, for the very latest on this.

Jeanne, what do you know about this thus far?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, we're told that Julie Myers did not realize that the man at the party was wearing makeup.

A spokeswoman for Myers describes the makeup as bronzer, not blackface, and says it was not obvious. But somebody had no problem figuring out it was makeup, complained, and that prompted Julie Myers to send out an e-mail last Friday to all employees of ICE.

It said in part, "It is now clear that, however unintended, a few of the costumes were inappropriate and offensive. I and the senior management at ICE deeply regret that this happened."

And, today, the secretary of homeland security summed it up this way: Sometimes, people do dumb things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: I have zero tolerance for racism or discrimination in the area of law enforcement. We have to be tough, but we have to be fair. And the idea that you're going to come and impersonate someone of another ethnic group I think is completely unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Do you get the feeling that some of the folks there at ICE are going to be a little concerned about this investigation? After all, they're talking about something that's pretty delicate here. And they are charged with dealing with people with a darker skin color most of the time, aren't they?

MESERVE: Yes.

The secretary made it very clear that he was concerned about some of those very things. And, over at ICE, I think they are concerned too. They have been, I must say, very proactive about this, dealing not just with the media, but people on Capitol Hill. But there's got to be some worry about this.

Julie Myers is serving in her job in an acting capacity. She's not been confirmed by the full Senate. And I suppose there could be some worry that this could impact it. Maybe it helps that Secretary Chertoff said unambiguously today that he still supports her.

SANCHEZ: Yes. It's interesting what you were just saying about Julie Myers.

In fact, stay there, because I want to pick up on that theme that you just brought up a little bit, and I want to come back to you after we do this.

A couple of things about Julie Myers that I think would be important to talk about. First of all, it's important now to objectively break down exactly who she is, 38 years old, first time in charge of a government agency like this. By the way, this is huge. ICE is the second biggest -- yes, second biggest investigative agency in the country, 15,000 employees, $5 billion annual budget.

She's worked in the Justice Department before, done apparently a very good job there. But she did work for Ken Starr by the way. What else is noteworthy about it? Well, I want to show you a couple of things that I think are important to talk about when we talk about Ms. Myers and this case.

So, we have put her right here in the middle. What are her real connections? She's the niece of the former Joint Chiefs of Staff general chairman Richard Myers, remember, of course, in Iraq. There's a connection there.

Also, she's married to Secretary Michael Chertoff's former chief of staff. He was the chief of staff at the time. President Bush decided to bypass Congress and appointed her to this job. She hasn't been confirmed yet, because he did the end run with her.

Now, here now my conversation with a congressman, Bennie Thompson, who, by the way, heads the Homeland Security Committee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Do you think Julie Myers should be fired? REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think she has some explaining to do and that's why I have asked her to come and give a presentation to me and some of the other members of the committee as to what actually happened.

SANCHEZ: Do you know why this is such a big deal? I will tell you why it seems to me that this is a very important issue. She's charged with the job of, in many cases, arresting and deporting people who are of the skin color which that man seemed to be mocking at that costume party, OK, I mean, essentially, brown-skinned people and real dark-skinned people. How do they now look at her and the agency she runs as a fair organization?

THOMPSON: Well, I agree that it is poor taste. I agree that this agency deals with a disproportionate number of minorities. And the higher you get up in the organization, the less minority participation you get.

What I really want to get to the bottom of, Rick, on this issue, is, is this situation symptomatic?

SANCHEZ: And the fact that they're doing that and nobody in the room seemed to recognize when it was going on, from a leadership standpoint, from a Julie Myers' standpoint, that there was a problem there, is symptomatic in and of itself. If there isn't a recognition of a problem when it's happening, that's not leadership, sir.

THOMPSON: Well, I agree with you. Clearly there is a problem. The minute she saw it, she should have said, oh, no, this is totally inappropriate.

To wait until the next day to issue an apology and say, oh, I was misled, I thought this was an African-American, but to find out this person had makeup on, it's inappropriate. I agree with you.

SANCHEZ: Apparently, there's a picture of her standing next to the gentleman who she singled out for originality in costume. But that picture has been gotten rid of for some reason. They had the photographer make sure he got rid of his negatives, according to a report.

A, have you seen that picture? And, B, what's your reaction to that report?

THOMPSON: Well, we heard the same thing, Rick. We're trying to find out why was the CBP photographer's camera erased, film erased.

I will ask her that in the morning. If that was the case, then I think that creates a bigger problem, because you're trying to pretend or cover up and actually like this situation never occurred.

SANCHEZ: Bennie Thompson, Congressman, my thanks to you, sir, for taking time to take us through this.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Jeanne Meserve, let's bring you back into this conversation, because I was taken aback when he told me -- he seemed to be saying he's more concerned about the cover-up than he was the actual charge. What are you learning about this?

MESERVE: Well, ICE says that those photos were deleted from the CBP photographer's digital camera because the costume was offensive and inappropriate.

We asked, wouldn't it have been helpful to have those photos for the inquiry that DHS is now doing? A spokesman for ICE said, well, they might have, they might not.

There are other photos of the party. We have asked for them. ICE said no. They wouldn't tell us why, but advised us to file a Freedom of Information Act request. We have done that, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Well done. Jeanne Meserve, thanks so much for that report.

MESERVE: You bet.

SANCHEZ: By the way, I have got some pictures I want to show you.

Take a look at this. You see this? This is astonishing. This is a man crossing the border from the United States -- or, should I say, from Canada into the United States nonchalantly. What's in that red bag as he walks over to a vehicle and gets in? Who knows.

This is an amazing report about homeland security. We want to share this with you. And we will have it in just a little bit.

Also, there's now an investigative report tonight on the Minutemen who promised to build a fence along the border with Mexico. And they got a lot of money for this promise. Where's the fence? Where's the money? We're looking into this for you.

We're going to be back in exactly 60 seconds. Count us down, folks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: This is a story we have been looking into now of the Minuteman Project, promised to build a fence to wall us off from Mexico. And in trying to find out how that fence project is coming along, what we found is there had been a lot of money collected for this.

So, two questions here, right, normal questions that anybody would ask if they're looking into this. A, where's the fence? B, where's the money? This is a CNN exclusive.

We welcome now the newest member of our CNN team, investigative correspondent Abbie Boudreau. All right, Abbie, start us off.

First of all, welcome aboard.

And what did you find out?

ABBIE BOUDREAU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Rick.

Well, first of all, it started off as a lofty plan to safeguard our southern border, a 2,000-mile high-tech fence, nearly impossible for illegal border crossers to dig under, climb over or cut through. The leader of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps set out to raise $55 million to build it.

"Keeping Them Honest," we went down to the Arizona-Mexico border to see just how far that fence has progressed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOUDREAU (voice-over): It was a reaction to the horror of 9/11.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If elected officials will not lead, then it is up to the citizens.

BOUDREAU: A way for people to really do something to make America safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secure our borders and enforce our laws.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BOUDREAU: One man actually mortgaged his home, donating more than $100,000.

"Keeping Them Honest," we went looking for the fence. We did find the fence the federal government is building, but where was that 14-foot-high Minuteman fence?

Paul Newman, the board supervisor of Cochise County, Arizona, says Simcox's fence was a pipe dream from the beginning. After all, the border is a patchwork of public and private land. And a fence- builder could never get permission to cross all of it.

PAUL NEWMAN, BOARD SUPERVISOR, COCHISE COUNTY, ARIZONA: In actuality, for people who are still giving him money, they should know that that money is not going to building a fence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: That's amazing.

I went in the system and I read your full report. And it's astonishing to see that it was essentially a cow fence at one point. But there's a lot of money that went this way. Do we know where the money's gone at this point? BOUDREAU: Well, that's exactly the question that all the former Minuteman leaders we talked to want to know. And they didn't get those answers. And, tonight, on "A.C. 360," we will tell you what happened to those people for simply asking tough questions.

SANCHEZ: By the way, a lot of people do want a fence built and they want the federal government to build it, and the federal government is moving along, along those plans, although not going fast enough according to most. So, was their plan to build one adjacent to it, in addition to it? We were talking about two fences? I don't get it.

BOUDREAU: Yes. Well, there would be two fences. And they would only be separated by a few yards.

And, as a matter of fact, I visited one ranch where you have this tiny Minuteman fence on one side of the road and a huge 13-foot fence the federal government is building on the other side. So, they're simply just yards apart.

It's understandable why so many people want to know why the Minuteman group is still trying to collect money for what some call a fence to nowhere.

SANCHEZ: Abbie Boudreau, hey, welcome aboard, kid.

BOUDREAU: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Good to have you.

You can see Abbie's in-depth report, by the way, on the Minuteman fence later tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, on "A.C. 360."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRILL COOK, UTAHNS FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM: It's really saying to them, we don't care that you broke the law coming here and being here illegally. We're going to give you this pass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: But should they get this pass? And is it just a pass? He's talking about Utah's plan that gives driving privilege cards to illegal immigrants. Now, does this work? Tonight, our definitive report on that from Utah and a critic who says this is a bad idea; I don't want it to come along.

Then later, chaos and outrage in Pakistan. They're beating people on the streets. And then the repercussions of this, as you know, could be nuclear, could be explosive. We will follow that.

Also, an eyewitness to O.J. Simpson's Las Vegas raid, OUT IN THE OPEN has this exclusive interview. Get the real deal -- when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back.

Boy, I will tell you, this is one of those explosive issues. And I think you heard if you were watching Dobbs' show a little while ago, that this is the kind of thing that really has gone national. We recognize that.

It's the driver's license controversy. It continues to play out in New York, with our Lou Dobbs of course front and center and leading the charge. He says that, look, giving illegal immigrants a license is a pathway towards acceptance and amnesty. And he's resolute that this is a bad idea.

Governor Eliot Spitzer, on the other hand, says, if you don't give them a driver's license, they can't get insurance and they can't be accounted for. And he says from a security standpoint, that's a bad idea.

So, we have got these two competing thoughts, right? Well, we wanted to know if there's anybody out there with a plan that maybe splits the difference on this argument. We think we may have found one. This is in Utah.

Here's our correspondent Deborah Feyerick, who traveled to Utah to see how their plan works.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will carefully make a right turn at the corner of the building.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He passed his written exam. Now Leandro as we will call him, is taking his driving test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will stop here by the yellow poles. Just stop here, please.

FEYERICK: Even though he's an illegal immigrant, Leandro, a hotel worker in Salt Lake City, is applying for a state card that will let him drive legally in Utah. It's called a driving privilege card. It's not a federal I.D. and can't be used to board a plane or buy a gun.

LEANDRO, HOTEL WORKER (through translator): I'm part of this society, no matter what my status is. And because of that, as a human right, if I'm allowed to buy a car, why can't I get the license?

FEYERICK: Illegal immigrants like Leandro came to Utah because jobs here are easy to get, especially in places like Park City with its famous ski resorts and restaurants.

Police Chief Lloyd Evans and his officers are not allowed to ask a person's immigration status, something they feel is a federal issue.

LLOYD EVANS, PARK CITY POLICE CHIEF: For me, when someone gets 1,000 miles inland from the border, my concern is safety of this community. By saying no, you can't have a driver's license, we're forcing them underground.

FEYERICK: But critics say any form of I.D. is a reward for illegal immigrants who broke the law to come to the U.S. in the first place.

COOK: Well, because it's really saying to them, we don't care that you broke the law coming here and being here illegally. We're going to give you this pass.

FEYERICK (on camera): The driving privilege cards came about through trial and error. Before, Utah actually had driver's licenses for illegal immigrants. But a state audit a couple of years back found a number of abuses, including voter fraud.

(voice-over): Two years ago, Republican State Senator Curt Bramble, the original sponsor of the license, led the effort to repeal it in favor of the driving privilege card, an attempt he says to create order out of immigration chaos.

CURT BRAMBLE (R), UTAH STATE SENATOR: The notion that we're going to somehow round up all the illegal aliens and deport them, well, that sounds -- that's a neat sound bite. From a practical point of view, it will never happen. And I would challenge the staunchest critics of our driving privilege card program to propose a better alternative.

FEYERICK: So far, 36,000 people have received the driving privilege card, and a recent audit found 75 percent of them carry car insurance.

As for Leandro, who we met earlier, he's got a car and insurance, but for now, no driving privilege card.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And come back and retest.

FEYERICK: He failed his test, but says he will try again in January.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Park City, Utah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: As you might imagine, Utah's privilege card has plenty of foes.

One of them is Eli Cawley. He's chairman of the board for the Utah Minuteman Project.

We thank you for being with us on this night.

The idea, as its proponents say, is, look, these guys are here already. You better make sure that they're somehow insured in case you get into an accident with them. And you also want to make sure who they are and where they are for security reasons. How do you argue that?

ELI CAWLEY, UTAH MINUTEMAN PROJECT: Well, I respond by saying that Tennessee didn't get rid of its driving privilege card for nothing, and that while Senator Bramble may have been correct in replacing the driver's license with the driving privilege card, at the same time, the driving privilege card is only good for one year.

And that audit that was mentioned a moment ago was not carried through to find out how long they actually kept insurance. And, so, what you see happening is illegal aliens getting the insurance and then dropping it after a few months and letting it lapse. And, so...

SANCHEZ: But if they're breaking it down in such a way so that we're -- look, what they're saying is, this does not mean that they're legally in the United States. They cannot use this -- and it says it right there on the card -- as any form of I.D. All it says is that they have a driving privilege in the United States. That's all it says. That's their argument.

CAWLEY: Yes. Yes, that's true.

But they're using it in banks and for other commercial means. And it's being accepted as such, sir.

SANCHEZ: But isn't that OK? What's wrong with going to -- don't we want these people spending money, so we could get their tax money, so we can -- so they can help us in the end?

CAWLEY: Well, you're never going to find me arguing against economics, because you can't argue against economics.

SANCHEZ: Right.

CAWLEY: And that's one of the main arguments that people bring to the table.

But what we're talking about is, number one, their illegal presence and, number two, the rule of law. And, if you throw out the rule of law, eventually, the same people who are concerned about economics are going to be undercut, because it's going to affect them sooner or later.

SANCHEZ: No, I agree with you. And you know what? The question we really have to ask is who is responsible for the breaking of the rule of law?

We have got corporations that recruit these people to come into the United States. We have got a government that basically turns its -- lets them come into the United States. And now we're going after the people. Well, maybe we need to come up with a plan at the federal level that allows them to stay here, shouldn't we?

CAWLEY: No, sir. No, sir. The fact of the matter is, is that...

SANCHEZ: None of them? None of them? I mean, 12 million, you want to get rid of every single of them?

CAWLEY: I am in favor of self-deportation, sir.

You take away the freebies. You take away their jobs. You take away the health care. You take away their schools, and they have two choices, sir. They will go further underground, be exposed to the long arm of the law even more than they are now, or they will go back to where they came from.

SANCHEZ: Every single one of them you want to eliminate from the United States one way or another?

CAWLEY: I want them to obey the law, sir.

SANCHEZ: And you want them to leave?

CAWLEY: Yes, obey the law.

SANCHEZ: OK.

And do you believe this situation is their fault? Or do you blame the government and the corporations who got them here?

CAWLEY: It's a shared fault, sir. They broke the law by crossing the border, and they did so because the federal law was not enforced. And they did so because the employment agencies and the corporations and the businesses do not pay close enough attention to the law and are employing them illegally, yes, sir.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Eli Cawley, we thank you, sir, for taking the time to talk to us tonight. We will continue the conversation at some other time from Salt Lake City.

CAWLEY: Thank you. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Also, one more thing on this, by the way.

Last night, we had our Quick Vote. And we asked the question, if you agree with Utah's program giving driving privilege cards to illegal immigrants. Twenty-percent of you said you approved; 72 percent said you do not approve.

All right, look at these unbelievable pictures. You see that guy right there? He is crossing the border into the United States. Now, what's he carrying? And why isn't anyone stopping him? These are important questions. Next, a report that will make you think twice about border security in this country.

And then, we're also taking you into the middle of this, Pakistan. Is it spinning out of control?

And officer shot, suspect on the run. Could investigators find him with only these pictures to go on? We will get all three of those for you in just a little bit.

Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: This is an amazing story we have been following for you. I want you to take a look at this video now.

You see that right there? This is out of Afghanistan. These are Afghan lawmakers. They didn't know it, but, earlier today, they were about to be in a bombing. And the innocent people who came to shake their hands suddenly became the targets of a vicious suicide bombing.

And now we have got the devastating aftermath as well, at least 35 people dead, including three children, six members of the Afghan parliament as well; 100 more, we understand, are wounded. And why is this important?

Well, think about the geographic position and the geopolitical position involved in this from Afghanistan to Pakistan. Pakistan's president, our ally in the war against terror, ordered more arrests today. And police beat protesters in the streets.

Now, let me show you what we're talking about when we compare those two countries. There, you see Afghanistan in the orange. There, you see Pakistan. Now, Waziristan is that area right up there between Islamabad, all the way over to Kabul. There's that little stretch of land there where Osama bin Laden is supposed to be hiding.

And that's important because there's a huge insurgent presence there. There's a huge al Qaeda presence there and Taliban presence there, all mixing into this problem now with Musharraf trying to fight the situation from both Karachi and Islamabad.

Now let's go to Zain Verjee. She's one of the few journalists who has actually been able to enter into this embattled area. She's been following the situation. I understand it's morning there now.

Is the situation under control, or is it very close to what we have been seeing for the last couple of days? What are you seeing, Zain?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, I think it's too early to say whether it's actually under control. The last few days have seen brutal clashes really between lawyers and police forces here in Pakistan.

So, it could happen. There may be more protests again today. We have only been here actually a few hours. And the sense we get, Rick, from people that we have talked to here is that, on the surface, people are kind of like going about their ordinary business. It seems business as usual.

But, underlying that, there is a sense of uncertainty and unease. And people really don't know what will happen next -- Rick.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Here's the situation there. Musharraf is our ally and someone who is supposed to represent the interest of the United States, someone we gave at one point $10 billion to. Many Americans would wonder why he's using his resources to go against lawyers, people in suits, and not be seemingly fighting the people to the north in places like Waziristan, Al Qaeda and the insurgents, can you make us get that?

VERJEE: Yes. I mean, critics are saying basically that all Musharraf is trying to do here by going for the lawyers and by declaring a state of emergency is really a power grab. He wants to stay in power. That's the bottom line. However, you know, he's also argued that he's got to be in this position in order to be able to fight the Taliban and fight Al Qaeda.

The U.S. depends on Pervez Musharraf to help it fight the war on terror because that's the number one priority in the region. So in spite of what he's done, in spite of all the criticism that he's faced from the United States and the international community, they know that they need him and they need him to do this and to cut off the funding, the $10 billion, which amounts to -- it's now a billion dollars a year. They can't do that to undermine U.S. counterterrorism efforts.

SANCHEZ: You watch yourself there. Zain Verjee reporting to us from Islamabad, Pakistan. We thank you for that report.

By the way, some more great pictures coming up in a little bit, including one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. How'd they find these before this happens? Now, we're going to be back in just 60 seconds. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We do want to tell you some of the best pictures of the day as often we show them to you. And let's start now with the surveillance tape from a doughnut shop in Philadelphia. This is where a thief spots and killed a police officer last week. Now, we edited out the actual shooting, but there's this tape that was left behind.

Today, police in Miami arrested the suspect using that tape. That's what he looks like. He was coming out of a chapel at a homeless shelter when they found him. Now also, exclusive video we want to share with you of American soldiers doing extraordinarily dangerous work in Iraq.

Members of the explosive ordnance disposal unit do that exactly every day. They get rid of bombs before they can go off. Now, there's what the bomb looks like.

Now, we're going to show some of the video as well, as they work with some of these robots, some of the busiest and most secretive units in the army itself.

CNN's Frederik Pleitgen actually went along on nighttime mission with them, and there you see some of that grainy video that we've been looking at as it's been coming in throughout the day.

The unit's technology is so confidential, CNN wasn't even allowed to show the vehicle that they use to get to the bomb scene. And for the most part, they use those different robots to come in, find the bombs and then there you go, they blow them up after they see him. Well, by the way, more videos like this one you can see all of the pics at CNN.com/Rick.

Coming up, it's not supposed to happen this way. A scary new report about border security. What's in the red bag? Also -- (INAUDIBLE)

The man who was in the Vegas hotel room when O.J. Simpson and his gang allegedly busted in. Will his testimony send O.J. Simpson to jail? Tonight, he talks to us exclusively.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Got some breaking news we want to share with you now. There's two governor seats that are up for grabs. We've been following this all day long. The "Associated Press" has just projected Democrat Steve Basheer will win the governor's race in Kentucky, a Democrat winning in Kentucky. He's defeating Republican Ernie Fletcher, Kentucky's first Republican governor in 30 years interestingly enough.

The polls in Mississippi closed at the top of the hour. Republican Governor Haley Barber, seeking his second term. There are no numbers in on that one yet. Expect Haley Barber, the former Republican chair, to win that race.

Now, take a look at some amazing video we want to show you. It shows a guy casually crossing the border from Canada into the United States. He's holding a bag. He puts it into a car. As he walks along, right there when he crosses that pole, that's where he's actually coming into the United States.

And you wonder, what's in the bag? It could be anything. It could be radio active material, right? Luckily, the man was doing research for the U.S. government, testing vulnerabilities at border crossings for the Government Accountability Office, the fed's watch dog agency. The GAO has released a stunning report that spells more bad news for our border security. At least 21,000 people slipped over our northern and southern borders illegally last year, through unmanned and unmonitored official ports of entry.

Now, why isn't anybody watching and stopping these people? Let's put that now to CNN security analyst Clark Kent Ervin. He's the former inspector general of Homeland Security.

Are you alarmed when you hear what they found in this report and when you see pictures like that?

CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I absolutely am, Rick. This is really inexcusable. The fact that 21,000 people, at least, who shouldn't have been admitted to this country were, suggests needless to say that, that's perhaps the tip of the iceberg.

And, of course, the concern is not just about illegal immigration and about people who are criminal violators. But, of course, the potential for terrorists to exploit this loophole.

SANCHEZ: You know what I surprised about? I didn't know there were still places in Mexico and in Canada where you could just walk through. And apparently in some places, they have like a sign that says, you know, please don't go through here or if you go through here, make sure you check in with the guard a couple of miles down the road. I mean, it's crazy.

ERVIN: It is crazy. There are lots of places like that, Rick, and that's especially true on the northern border. For all the attention that rightly has been paid to our southern border in the last few years, we're more lightly defended or less well-defended on the northern border.

But, you know, the reason for this, there are several folds. One is, there are too few customs and border patrol inspectors at these legal ports of entry.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

ERVIN: A few we had, 10 not to be trained well. And, of course, those two issues related. They're poorly supervised. There's poor morale and there's also creeping complacency. Of course, it's good news that we haven't been attacked since 9/11, but that subconsciously leads people, I think, to believe that we're out of the woods. And we're far from out of the woods.

SANCHEZ: You know it's interesting. You were just mentioning the different borders, and you said that people don't talk about the Canadian border, obviously, because of the whole Mexican immigrant thing in the southern border.

But I looked at the numbers. Let's see if we can put these up in just a moment here if we can here again. Northern border, there are 972, 972 guards. At the southern border, there are 11,986, essentially 12,000. So 12,000 to 972, that seems like an interesting disparity, doesn't it?

ERVIN: Absolutely, Rick, and it's not for nothing, for example that Ahmed Rasam (ph), the millennium terrorist, the person who was planning to blow up LAX at the turn of the century back in 2000, attempted to cross the Canadian border that's because terrorists realize that it's easy as it is still, to cross our southern border. It's easier still to cross the northern border.

SANCHEZ: Clark Kent Ervin, my thanks to you, sir, for coming out and sharing your insight with us.

ERVIN: Thank you, Rick.

SANCHEZ: The guy who may send O.J. Simpson to jail is telling his story exclusively to CNN. We've got it, and we'll let you hear it in 60 seconds. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: We want to bring you an OUT IN THE OPEN exclusive tonight in the O.J. Simpson sting case. Preliminary hearings begin Thursday in the case of Simpson and five other men accused of storming a hotel room in Las Vegas on September 13th, pulling guns and seizing sports memorabilia that Simpson says belonged to him.

One of the people in that room, Bruce Fromong suffered a heart attack because he says of the stress that he experience. But now, he's talking about testifying against his long-time friend, O.J. Simpson, to our own Ted Rowlands.

He's joining us now from Los Angeles to bring us up to date. Ted, what do you have?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, basically, Bruce Fromong could end up being a very key prosecution witness in this case, if it goes all the way to trial from the preliminary hearings later this week. And Fromong is expected, Bruce Fromong, to testify in the prelim and in the trial itself.

This is a guy that's known O.J. Simpson for more than 15 years. He was a business associate of Simpson. He's a sports memorabilia guy. He was in that hotel room expecting to sell his wares to a buyer, a high-priced buyer, when O.J. Simpson he claims came barging in with his cronies, wielding guns.

Now, Fromong is the one guy who doesn't have a criminal record out all of this, that seems to be the most potentially credible witness. But he's a friend of O.J. Simpson, so a lot of people thought maybe he would turn. Well, we talked to him recently after he got out of the hospital and he told us that yes, he's a good friend of O.J. Simpson, and he surely knows that his testimony could send his buddy to jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROWLANDS (voice-over): Are you prepared to testify against him?

BRUCE FROMONG, SPORTS MEMORABILIA DEALER: Yes, I am. You know, this is the right thing to do. That's the only reason. I mean, it saddens me that I have to -- you know, I might be the one that puts O.J. in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROWLANDS: Now, Fromong not the only witness, of course. O.J. Simpson's co-defendants, three of them have turned. They're expected to testify as well. But Fromong could be the key for prosecutors as they seek these charges against O.J. Simpson. Again, he'll be in court this week in Las Vegas Thursday and Friday in this prelim.

SANCHEZ: You got about 15 seconds. It sounds like he's willing to nail O.J. Simpson when he gets on the stand.

ROWLANDS: Yes, he is the guy that supported him after the criminal trial, during the criminal trial. And now, he's saying... SANCHEZ: Wow.

ROWLANDS: ... this is enough. What happened to me in that hotel room was too much, and O.J. needs to pay for it.

SANCHEZ: That's bad news for Mr. Simpson. Ted Rowlands, thanks so much for that exclusive interview.

SANCHEZ: Pro wrestlers, what are they teaching our kids about steroids? This is something every parent should probably watch since kids love this stuff. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Larry King standing by right now. He's going to let us know what's coming up in a little bit. And when you talk to my friend, Lou Dobbs, tonight, make sure you refer to him as primetime. That's his new nickname, you know.

LARRY KING, HOST: I know. He's walking around the halls with a flashing sign, "primetime, primetime, primetime." It's very interesting.

Lou, it's gone to Lou's head. Anyway, excuse me. Lou Dobbs will be our initial guest tonight at the top of the hour. And then Robert Redford. Now, there's something about that pairing -- Lou Dobbs, Robert Redford. Robert Redford, Lou Dobbs.

SANCHEZ: They're both so easy on the eyes, you know. Lady killers.

KING: Yes, aren't they. And they're both so easy. They have no opinions on anything.

SANCHEZ: That's a great point. All right, Larry. We really look forward to that. Thanks, man.

KING: Thanks, Rick.

SANCHEZ: All right. Also, check out the chaos in the streets of Seoul, South Korea. Oh, my goodness. A major protest in the streets, but it's not against the government.

They're demonstrating against the power company. Union members are demanding better working conditions. Police used batons, and they used water cannons against them. Some of the protestors were carrying pictures of a man who died just last month after setting himself on fire to protest against the company's practices.

Now, let's take a "BizBreak." And we on Wall Street, the Dow gained over 117 points. The Nasdaq closed exactly 30 points higher. The S&P added 18.

Now, here's the big one. Gas and oil prices continue to skyrocket. Oil hit another record high. It's now at $96.70 a barrel. That in turn is putting pressure on gas prices. Triple-A and the Oil Price Information Service say that the national average price for a gallon of gas jumped two cents in just the last 24 hours to $3.02.

Also, a rush of recalls from E. Coli tainted beef to imported lead-tainted toys is prompting government action. President Bush now wants the Food and Drug Administration to be able to order mandatory recalls of bad food or products. Until now, the FDA could just encourage voluntary recalls. So there's a change. Also, violators of Consumer Product Safety Standards may soon face stiffer penalties.

Here's what else we have on tab for you. They have a huge fan base. Kids idolize them, but pro wrestlers also have dirty, deadly secrets. We are bringing it OUT IN THE OPEN. Stay with us.

And some people think that this little girl is a Hindu goddess reborn. This is an amazing story. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: If you haven't seen this story, this video, you're going to be astounded by this. First of all, take a look at this picture, OK. That's a Hindu goddess. It's the Hindu goddess Vishnu. She has four arms, and she's revered in India, right? Very important person.

Now, take a look at this little girl who was born in India and who people say miraculously may be a real-life version of the goddess. They say that she's a reincarnation of the goddess. She looks like her physically, the way her legs and her arms are laid out.

Parents respect that, but they don't want their daughter growing up like that. So today, a team of 30 doctors came in and they're performing surgery to make her perfectly normal with her two arms and her two legs.

A 40-hour operation. It's going to remove the four unneeded limbs, costing $200,000. Unbelievable story. Just go to CNN.com/Rick for more of my pics.

Now, here's one that's important for everybody who's a parent because little kids love pro-wrestling, right? Then pro-wrestlers may be teaching those kids some dangerous lessons. We're going to be back in just 60 seconds. You can count us down, and we will have it for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We've got a preview tonight of a fascinating story that we're going to have OUT IN THE OPEN tomorrow. Here is a special.

It's a about a dangerous and dark side of entertainment and for a long time pretended it was real. We're talking about professional wrestling. But the only thing real about it is the real pain that's suffered by the wrestlers and some of their families.

Drew Griffin is joining us now. He's our CNN special investigative unit, and he's been digging into this. Drew, this investigation began really with a terrible tragedy that happen to have there in Atlanta, right?

DREW GRIFFIN, INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Exactly right. It was the horrific murder-suicide, Rick, of one of the stars of World Wrestling Entertainment. A wrester named Chris Benoit, who one weekend this past June -- a weekend he was supposed to be wrestling, he killed his wife, his 7-year-old son, and then himself.

This was a shock to the fans, to his friends. And once again, exposed a very dark side to this business -- pain, steroids, and drug abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN (voice-over): While the WWE is trying to put the Benoit story behind it, its wrestlers can't escape nagging questions about steroid abuse.

John Cena is a WWE superstar, now recovering from an injury in the ring. He doesn't like being asked if he has used steroids.

JOHN CENA, FORMER PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: This is a crazy question and it's something that -- it's tough to answer just because of the way society is now. The way people conceive things because performance enhancing drugs have got the spotlight. It's a hot thing to talk about. I can't tell you that I haven't. Never be able to prove that I have.

GRIFFIN: The McMahons, Linda and Vince, insist their drug policy is for real. And Vince McMahon says, once again, the accusation he is only doing this for show. To take the heat off is not true.

VINCE MCMAHON, CHMN., WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT: This was again instituted in February of '06 and started prior to that. The federal government didn't suggest that we start a program of this nature.

The media didn't suggest that we start a program of this nature. It started because it was the right time to do it. We had the funds to do it, and it was the right thing to do.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Is the WWE steroid free, drug free?

MCMAHON: I don't think that there's any organization in the world, be it entertainment or be it sport, that can tell you that they are totally drug free.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: Our report tomorrow night, Rick, a surprisingly candid look at that man, Vince McMahon, the guy who really runs professional wrestling now and how his profession is being forced to come face to face with a horrible legacy of dead, broken wrestlers.

The action, as you said, certainly fake the pain, though. Not only real, Rick. One father says it is what turned his wrestling son into a monster. We'll have it tomorrow night at 8:00. SANCHEZ: Roid rage, wow. Drew Griffin, sounds like good stuff. We look forward to it. Again, it's a special: Death Grip, Inside Pro Wrestling. It airs tomorrow at this time, right here on CNN.

He can really sing. I mean, he belts it out. You ever heard of somebody who drives to you at the drive through window? What's even better about this report is the reaction. Look at the people.

Oh, this is great. I can't wait to show it to you. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I love my job. But you know, and I'm certainly passionate about what I do, but look at this guy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Singing)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: He works at Taco Bell, and he sings all day long when people come to the drive thru. And they laugh, and he laughs. And he's got a nice voice and he just loves what he does, and he makes people smile every day.

His name is Danny Lavon Hardin (ph). Good for him. God bless him. In fact, he's another more of a sample. Come on. Let's hear him (INAUDIBLE).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Singing)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Yes, whenever, whenever you're ready. You get it. I mean, he's just telling people they can face their order. Check out all of "Rick's Pics" right here at CNN.com/Rick.

Thanks so much for being with us tonight. Larry King coming up next. I'm Rick Sanchez. Hasta manana.

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