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LOU DOBBS TONIGHT

Special Report: Financial Institutions Overcharging the Middle Class; School Districts Face Financial Disaster

Aired November 12, 2007 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Looking forward to seeing you out there, Wolf, thank you.
And welcome tonight from Phoenix, Arizona, tonight some of the country's leading financial institutions are posing outrageous and often illegal charges on middle class Americans who are in danger of losing her homes. Tonight we're going to tell you who they are. We're going to names in that special report.

Also school districts across this country, many are facing financial collapse because of the federal government's failure to deal with our illegal immigration crisis. Tonight among my guests here, Tom Horne, Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, he has some insight to share with everybody in this country.

And I'll be talking with a man who calls himself the country's toughest sheriff, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona. The reason he calls himself that is he is, Sheriff Arpaio, refusing to be intimidated by the socio-ethnocentric special interests and corporate elites. And he's setting an example for the entire nation -- all of that and a lot more, all the day's news, straight ahead here tonight.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, November 12, 2007. Live from Phoenix, Arizona, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Tonight from Phoenix, Arizona we begin tonight with new evidence that Senator Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign is falling a bit. Two months before the first primary elections will be held in Iowa, the latest national poll showing Senator Clinton's over Democratic rivals narrowing. Senator Barack Obama and former Senator John Edwards, both intensifying their verbal attack against her. But Senator Clinton is now striking back calling those opponents inexperienced.

Jessica Yellin has our report tonight from Washington -- Jessica.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Iowa's annual Jefferson Jackson dinner is a make or break evening that can turn a lagging candidate into the front-runner. Well this year 9,000 Iowa Democrats turned out for the event and what they got was a brawl.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

YELLIN (voice-over): After weeks of promising to take off the gloves at Iowa's Jefferson Jackson dinner, Barack Obama finally did, aiming squarely at Senator Hillary Clinton.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am running for president because I am sick and tired of Democrats thinking that the only way to look tough on national security is by talking and acting and voting like George Bush Republicans.

YELLIN: He dismissed the senator as too calculated.

OBAMA: The same old Washington textbook campaigns just won't do in this election. Triangulating and poll-driven positions because we're worried about what Mitt or Rudy might say about us just won't do.

YELLIN: And John Edwards pounced on the same theme.

JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is time for us as a party to stand up with some backbone and some strength for what we actually believe in.

(APPLAUSE)

YELLIN: Still, the national front runners, Senator Clinton, hit back, branding her opponents inexperienced.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Change is just a word if you don't have the strength and experience to make it happen.

YELLIN: But the Iowa race is increasingly tight. And with Iowa first in the nation to choose a candidate, what happens in the next seven weeks can make all the difference.

STUART ROTHENBERG, EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, "THE ROTHENBERG POLITICAL REPORT": This is really the crucial time. While everything else has been prolonged and frankly hasn't mattered a lot, this is crunch time.

H. CLINTON: What do we do?

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (INAUDIBLE)

YELLIN: Senator Clinton's opponents hope she'll feel the squeeze and turning her campaign slogan against her.

EDWARDS: You don't turn up the heat on the Republicans by voting with Bush, Cheney and the neo cons on the issues of going to war with Iran.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

YELLIN: Now, Lou, Barack Obama's campaign is clearly feeling good. Today his campaign manager said for Obama this speech may have been the most important of the campaign. Lou?

DOBBS: Well, that's fascinating, Jessica, yet I'm hard pressed to think about just how available to the press this candidate, Senator Barack Obama has been who has been -- disavows triangulating and careful posturing. He's basically all but inaccessible to the press, is he not?

YELLIN: Well he did hold press availability today and he did answer some questions, some tough questions today.

DOBBS: Perhaps the beginning of a brand-new phase in the campaign. As for the other candidates, they all are on the same page, I think, as far as illegal immigration and border security. I'm having a hard time differentiating. Help me out a little bit.

YELLIN: Well, on which issues, Lou? I mean, on border security, Hillary Clinton, you know, has been in a very tough position.

DOBBS: Right.

YELLIN: And they are trying to -- try to define themselves apart from the Republicans and yet distinguish themselves from one another and they're having a bit of a struggle with that. Hillary Clinton is clearly having the hardest time of all.

DOBBS: Perhaps they should be triangulating, if I could use that expression, if they want to be careful. Thank you very much. And I want to make it very clear the instant that I'm saying this about all of the four candidates for the presidential nomination from the Democratic Party, the Republicans having pretty much exactly the same problem. Thank you very much, Jessica Yellin.

The latest opinion poll shows Senator Clinton's campaign has lost some momentum. Her trouble began two weeks ago as Jessica Yellin suggested when Senator Clinton waffled on the issue of whether the state of New York should give drivers' licenses away to illegal aliens as Governor Eliot Spitzer so fervently desires. Senator Clinton's difficulties escalated over the weekend after reports that her staff planted a question at a campaign event in Iowa.

Bill Schneider has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Hillary Clinton's momentum has stalled. That's the message of the latest national polls of Democrats. Clinton's lead over second place Democrat Barack Obama has been decreasingly steadily since spring, but four polls taken in late October and early November showed no significant change. For others, show Clinton's lead narrowing.

In the CNN poll by the Opinion Research Corporation, Clinton had a 30-point lead in October. Now her lead is down to 19 points. Two polls just out in New Hampshire also show Clinton's lead narrowing from 23 to 14 points in the University of New Hampshire poll, from 22 to 12 in the Marist poll.

The race has always been much closer in Iowa. Both polls in the lead-off caucus state show Clinton's lead in single digits, just three points in the latest Zogby poll. Democrats sense she could be vulnerable. That's why the Democratic race is heating up. Obama is taking aim at Clinton's honesty, a familiar charge that's been leveled at both Clintons.

OBAMA: You don't answer directly tough questions. You don't present tough choices directly to the American people for fear that your answers might not be popular.

SCHNEIDER: Like maybe on the issue of drivers' license for illegal aliens.

H. CLINTON: I did not say that it should be done but I certainly recognize why Governor Spitzer is trying to do it.

SCHNEIDER: Her response to Obama...

H. CLINTON: I stand where I have stood for 35 years. I stand with you.

SCHNEIDER: Clinton has a countercharge that Obama lacks fight.

H. CLINTON: What do we do?

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (INAUDIBLE)

SCHNEIDER: He's not tough enough to turn up the heat on the Republicans. Is she?

H. CLINTON: Let's make sure that we turn up the heat and turn America around.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: So, she says he's not tough enough and he says she doesn't level with the people. And as you reported, the Clinton campaign has acknowledged planting a question for the candidate with the voters. Now Lou, here's some advice from Las Vegas. Pay attention to those polls but don't bet the farm. Lou?

DOBBS: You know I wouldn't bet the farm on either one of these parties and the candidates they're fielding right now, Bill Schneider. I'm the independent populous. Remember I haven't got a dog in this hunt, but there may be one or two dogs in the race. I mean we're talking about some significant movement in the poll numbers, but this Senator Clinton, this campaign of hers is really still very strong at this stage and rolling strongly ahead, is it not?

SCHNEIDER: She is. She is a front-runner in the national polls, but here's something nobody can decide. Is this a national race because so many states have moved up? It looks like it might be a national primary on February 5th. Or is it really a set of local races with those early primaries like Iowa, which is a caucus and New Hampshire counting even more than they have in the past. No one really knows, but it looks like two different contests if you look at each different picture.

DOBBS: And there's another issue building relatively quickly as we approach Iowa, too, Bill. I think you would agree. It may be that because everyone has moved -- all of the states moving up these primaries this thing may be over very quickly. That is, we may have been waiting a very long time through a long campaign that has suddenly ended. And the parties have selected their candidates so early that maybe the electorate won't be prepared for the choices that are made in those primaries.

SCHNEIDER: That's exactly right. That often happens in primaries. You know the only primaries happen and they pick say a candidate with high name recognition and then they spend about six months until the convention, the Democrats and the Republicans scratching their heads and saying what have we done? Then second thoughts or buyers' remorse begins to set in, often happens.

DOBBS: Yeah, voter remorse, not an unheard symptom or syndrome in this country. Unfortunately it's all too frequent. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, Bill Schneider...

SCHNEIDER: As long as it happens before the election.

(LAUGHTER)

DOBBS: Well I prefer we all just be avoiding it altogether. But, anyway, thank you very much.

Our border security and illegal immigration a crisis, of course is one of the top issues in this election campaign. The mainstream media has just figured that out, by the way. Welcome aboard, folks.

Governor Eliot Spitzer of New York tonight is refusing to say whether he will rescind his outrageous proposal to give away drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. In comments made in Puerto Rico, Friday, Prince Eliot suggested that he just might back away from his plan if he can't build enough support for it.

The polls are pretty clear, Governor. You might take a look. But then today Spitzer declared he did not mean to suggest he's going to delay or change his plan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: What I indicated is that when I was in Puerto Rico was that this is tough and I think anybody who has watched the airwaves or listened to the airwaves or seen the press would be aware of that fact. And trust me, I've seen it as well, heard it. Even without a TV sometimes you can hear it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: You know, that's great because that's what we do here, we communicate. And it's good that the governor is listening. Now he just needs to listen a little more, I think, a remarkable admission there from the good governor finally acknowledging the massive opposition to his ill-advised and irresponsible proposal. Governor Spitzer, of course, is not acknowledging the rising concern that his proposal will lead to massive voter fraud. North Carolina and Tennessee once had similar drivers' licenses policies as the one Governor Spitzer originally suggested. They don't anymore. Those states were simply overwhelmed with fraud. Bill Tucker has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In most states when you get a driver's license you register to vote. It's pretty much automatic. In seven states you can register to vote on the day of an election using only a driver's license. It's no wonder that New York Governor Eliot Spitzer has awakened a serious concern over potential voter fraud.

BRIAN ZIMMER, COAL. FOR SECURE DRIVER'S LICENSE: I know that both the association of both the secretaries of state have had their issue on their national meeting agendas as have the election officials in many states. I think there's more concern among election officials than the press is necessarily aware.

TUCKER: Eight states currently don't require proof of law for residents to get a license. They are Maine, Maryland, Michigan, New Mexico, Utah, Oregon, Washington, and Hawaii. Hawaii takes it one step further and doesn't even require proof that a person lives in the state to get a driver's license. In New York State, Governor Spitzer is directing County Department of Motor Vehicle clerks to register anyone applying for a driver's license even if they don't provide a Social Security number which every lawful resident or citizen must provide when they apply for a driver's license. It is generally estimated that under the governor's plan roughly one half a million illegal aliens will be of driving age.

JUAN CARLOS POLANCO (R), BRONX CO. ELECTION COMMS.: This opens up Pandora's Box for fraud in New York, election fraud, you name it. What we have today is a situation where the extremes are confusing the public. They're confusing the debate. This isn't about immigration. This is about homeland security and this is about better (ph) security.

TUCKER: North Carolina and Tennessee are two states which once offered drivers' licenses to illegal aliens but no longer do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Both states rescinded their programs after discovering massive fraud plagued the programs and Lou, I spoke with a leader in the fight to stop a program in Tennessee today and he said that while voter fraud was not the reason for discontinuing the program, it was a serious concern in the state. Lou?

DOBBS: Well, as I have suggested in a number of commentaries I think it should be a serious concern in every state and this union. And it's inexcusable in my judgment that Prince Eliot continues to press ahead with this irresponsible proposal. On its face, it is simply an invitation to massive voter fraud. And it's also against the expressed wishes of the director of homeland security and runs afoul of New York State law. But other than that I think the governor has pretty much got a handle on it all. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.

TUCKER: You're welcome.

DOBBS: Well still ahead here, the toughest sheriff in the country refuses to be intimidated by the illegal alien amnesty open borders lobby. Casey Wian is here and he has the report for us from Phoenix tonight. Casey?

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, you know Phoenix, Arizona is ground zero for illegal immigration in the United States and one local sheriff is trying to do something about it. We'll have Sheriff Joe Arpaio's story coming up -- Lou.

DOBBS: Looking forward to it, thank you very much.

Also, state corrections officials in this state are showing the entire nation how to deal with criminal illegal aliens. This state of Arizona, by the way, is showing the entire nation how to handle a few things. We'll have that special report.

And startling new evidence of communist China's massive effort to flood the United States with cheap and of course in many cases, dangerous imports -- it seems there are no accidents when it comes to policy, public policy or trade policy. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Welcome back. We're reporting tonight from Phoenix, Arizona -- Arizona of course on the front lines of the battle against illegal immigration and also at the forefront on the issue of border security. Almost half a million illegal aliens are estimated to be in the state of Arizona. Arizona, one of four southern border states, which there is a 375-mile long border with Mexico and 155 miles of that border -- are you ready -- has already been fenced.

The Tucson area is considered the country's busiest illegal alien corridor and Arizona has been forced to take action all on its own. One program, with some federal assistance, aims to make certain that illegal aliens arrested in the state of Arizona aren't put back on the streets.

Jeanne Meserve has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The swastika of the Aryan Brotherhood, the mark of an L.A. street gang, one way to classify and sort new prisoners. But in Arizona, state corrections employees work literally alongside federal immigration and customs enforcement to determine the immigration status of prisoners as soon as they enter the system. Illegal aliens are put on a fast track for deportation. Under Arizona law, most prisoners serve 85 percent of their sentence and a small number convicted of non-violent crimes could be released after serving only half. But they are not released onto the streets.

DORA SCHRIRO, DIR., ARIZ. DEPT. OF CORRECTIONS: I transfer them to ICE immediately. They are not on the street for a single day.

MESERVE: In less than two years, the program has shifted 1,200 prisoners out of state custody.

(on camera): Sixty-two dollars a day that's how much it cost to house an inmate here in Arizona. So getting even a few of them out of the system early has a real financial benefit for the state.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For taxpayers it's really great news. It's equal to ABOUT $13.5 million in savings.

MESERVE (voice-over): ICE immediately deports the criminal aliens. Most are Mexicans bussed to the border and released. They are supposed to face tough penalties if they're caught again in the U.S., but critics doubt that will deter them.

DAVID SHIRK, UNIVERSITY OF SAN DIEGO: Odds are you're going to try to come back. You're going to try to come back probably illegally because there's really no option for a criminal alien.

MESERVE: Indeed one prisoner tells us that is exactly what he will do.

(on camera): If you get sent back again, will you come back to the U.S.?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, with the help of God.

MESERVE: Even though there could be a bigger penalty next time when he comes back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. I understand.

MESERVE: It's worth it? Why is it worth it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My wife is here.

MESERVE (voice-over): Arizona says only eight people removed from the U.S. under this program have been re-arrested, but there is no way of telling how many eluded authorities and slipped back into the country, perhaps to commit new crimes.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: We're going to be talking about that program with Sheriff Joe Arpaio in just a moment. And it brings us to the subject of tonight's poll question, which is very simple. Do you believe it is simply absurd and inexplicable to even be discussing the need for border security more than six years after September 11th? Yes or no.

We would love to hear what you think. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We, of course, as we always do, have the results here later in the broadcast and we'll be sending them along to the White House and Congress, too. Why don't we just send them to Senator Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and of course President George W. Bush, border security man that he is.

One man who is doing his best to keep illegal aliens off Arizona streets is Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio who calls himself America's toughest sheriff. And as Casey Wian now reports, Sheriff Arpaio is leading the way for enforcement of immigration law in Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(CHEERING)

WIAN (voice-over): Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio riding in Phoenix's Veterans Day Parade, himself a veteran of the Army and a battle over illegal immigration. Border security advocates praise Arpaio's efforts to enforce immigration law. Supporters have expanded illegal alien rights scorn him.

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: This is a main state for illegal immigration. I am the elected sheriff. I report directly to the four million people in this county that we know of. I don't report to any politician or bureaucrat. I decide what the policies are. My decision is to do something about the illegal immigration problem.

WIAN: That includes ordering his deputies to arrest people for immigration law violations. The policy puts Arpaio in direct conflict with not only amnesty activists, but the Phoenix and other city police forces within his county.

CHIEF GEORGE GASCON, MESA, ARIZONA POLICE DEPT.: We know that in order for us to be effective as police officers we have to include every community we serve. That would become almost impossible when you have a segment of the community that will believe that if they approach the local police in order to report a crime they are likely to be deported.

WIAN: Arpaio is challenging local law enforcement agencies that don't routinely apprehend illegal aliens. When police officers enter his jail to drop off inmates, they see this new sign inviting them to join the Sheriff's Department and help enforce immigration law.

Arpaio's federally trained detention officer checks the immigration status of everyone booked in the Maricopa County Jail. That's resulted in detention or deportation for 6,000 inmates in just the past four months. This group of 74 illegal aliens are being released from county custody, instead of being released on the streets, now they're being released to federal immigration authorities for deportation proceedings.

ARPAIO: We have some elected Hispanic legislators, activists that have publicly called me a Nazi, have doctored a photo putting me in a KKK uniform, circulating that around the world. So they have gotten very low in going after me personally. But you know what, the more they go after me, the more I'm going to lock up.

WIAN: Arpaio's crackdown is intensifying. January 1 he will begin enforcing Arizona's new law, targeting employers of illegal aliens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Now last month the Sheriff's Department announced that the 2,100 illegal aliens in its jail committed 11,000 crimes including 8,500 felonies. It is no wonder a recent Arizona State University poll found that 72 percent of Arizonans favor Sheriff Arpaio's illegal immigration crackdown -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well I'm going to be talking with the sheriff, as you know, here in just a moment. I like the trade style America's toughest sheriff. But there also should be another style for him in addition to toughest. He may be the smartest and most responsible certainly on the issue of immigration law in this country.

But what I can't comprehend are these local police officers suggesting that they can't get involved with U.S. immigration laws. Do they get involved with U.S. drug laws? Do they get involved -- I mean where do they draw the line here?

WIAN: They draw the line -- they don't view someone being in this country illegally as a crime, most of them don't view it that way. They say they need cooperation from illegal aliens to solve other crimes. The problem is most of those other crimes are committed by illegal aliens as the statistics from Sheriff Joe's jail show, so he has taken the position that if you deport the illegal aliens, criminal illegal aliens and those who are just immigration law violators, you're going to be accomplishing a lot to clean up crime.

DOBBS: Well let's do this. It seems to me that one thing we might ought to do as a public service and that is our job, to enlarge the body of public knowledge. Let's find out how these deputy -- what do we call them, police chiefs I guess is the right word, these police chiefs are doing. Let's take a look at their solved cases.

Let's take a look at what they're -- how many cases they're closing, what the crime rate is in their communities and make some decision about what in the world these policies stack up as. I suspect we'll find something very similar to what we found all over the rest of the country.

WIAN: Absolutely, Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Casey. Casey Wian.

Time now for some of your thoughts. Lisa in Florida wrote in, "My husband and I are registered Independents and would be thrilled to find a candidate, any candidate, who didn't speak out of both sides of his or her mouth and the occasional backside." I think that millions of us would join you in that wish.

Robert in Florida, "Lou, I've always been a staunch Republican and my wife has always been a staunch Democrat. As of today we are both staunch Independents."

And Marc in Texas, "Two weeks ago I got pulled over for speeding and when I told the cop I was trying to get home to catch Lou Dobbs, he told me to get out of here with no ticket. Thanks, Lou, obviously you made an impact on the cops here in Houston." Well let's say thank you to the police officers in Houston for that and for all of the public service they do and enforcing the laws in the city of Houston and police men all around the country.

While we're at it, let's be sure we say thank you to all of those serving in uniform for this nation around the world on this day in which we commemorate Veterans Day.

We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my brand new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit". We're having a great time going around the country on the "Independents Day" tour. Not everyone, however, you're not going to believe this, not everyone is happy to see me.

Members of the Open Borders Pro Illegal Alien Amnesty Lobby, among them, were protesting my appearance at the University of San Diego last night. Now, these protesters, as you can see, are the ones injecting race into the issue of illegal immigration and border security. They accuse me of being, among other things, a racist, a Nazi, even a white supremacist all because I have the temerity to speak out against illegal immigration and insist on border security and a host of issues that affect working men and women in this country and their families.

I went over to talk with these protesters as a matter of respect because I believe that anyone has a right to express themselves in this country and I wanted to show them that respect. I'm not certain that you could say that we developed a reasonable dialogue or that that respect was reciprocated. But I do want to thank the University of California, San Diego for their great hospitality.

I thank all of the officers at the U.C. San Diego who had to spend a lot of time to make sure that everything was carried out civilly and under control. It was. I also want to thank all of the folks who turned out to see me in Atlanta, Georgia. And the wonderful people in Sarasota, Florida and Irvine, California and Seattle, Washington, here we come.

Still ahead, school systems around the country heavily burdened by illegal immigration. I'll be talking with Arizona's top school official who has some unique insight into the issue and firsthand knowledge on the issue.

Despite the millions recalls of dangerous imported products, communist Chinese imports are flooding into this country. And what is the Bush administration doing? What's your federal government doing? Well, let's put it this way, you're paying the price in more ways than one. We'll have that special report.

Also ahead this Veteran's Day, we salute the brave men and women who serve this nation in uniform.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think deep down inside I always knew that the military is what I wanted to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: We'll hear from many heroes in their own words throughout the broadcast. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Chinese manufacturing facility, we call them factories usually, that made those dangerous Aqua Dots toys is still producing toys despite a ban on exports. More than four million of those Aqua Dots toy sets were recalled last week because they contain a toxic chemical that turns into the date rape drug. Well despite the millions and millions of recalls of Chinese-made products, imports into this country, communist China is exporting more of its goods than ever. And China continues its unfair trade practices with the United States and the rest of the world. In fact, the U.S. trade deficit with China rose to more than $6 million in the month of September, $56 billion I should say in September. And as Kitty Pilgrim reports, our government continues to do little to ease China's economic strong hold. We would call that a strangle hold usually, on the American consumer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: China's trade with the world jumped 59 percent in the first ten months of the year, according to new figures released today. Chinese goods are pouring into every port in the world. And despite the long list of dangerous, defective, even poisonous products, the demand for Chinese goods is not slowing. Chinese financial strength was discussed at a recent conference, including U.S. law firms like Skadden ARPS which benefit from doing business with China.

BOB SHEEHAN, EXEC. PARTNERS, SKADDEN, ARPS: It's often been said that in recent years that the 21st century will be China's century. Like everyone in this room tonight, we're glad to be a part of it.

PILGRIM: But cheap Chinese products have a hidden cost. The Chinese government unfairly subsidizes Chinese manufacturers and it's driving U.S. manufacturers out of business, costing Americans their jobs. U.S. Treasury Secretary, Henry Paulson, will make his fifth trip to China since he took the job. But some say with little result in forcing China to change unfair trade policy like a weak currency and unfair subsidies to its manufacturers.

PETER MORICI, UNIVERSITY OF MD.: Secretary Paulson has given China the same old speech yet again, urging it to reform without laying out the specifics of what is required. Right now China subsidizes its exports to the United States. The Americans do nothing. Why should the Chinese change? We're practicing a policy of appeasement towards China.

PILGRIM: That's not how Secretary Paulson sees it.

HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY: So I'm fighting for the U.S. when I'm fighting to open our markets. But not everybody believes that. And every now and then people say, have you ever heard the word reciprocity. And so again, I think we're going to continue to see liberalization and integration, but I don't think we can take it for granted and we've got to fight for it.

PILGRIM: China has pledged to address currency reform but only at its own pace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Five of seven of the world's busiest ports are in China. China's foreign exchange reserves top $1.4 trillion. And the trade surplus with the United States is on track to hit another record again this year, Lou.

DOBBS: Did I just hear this treasury secretary said that the United States has to fight for the continued opportunity to run trade deficits with communist China and with other nations and to continue to build on what is already a $6 trillion trade debt, trade policies that have cost millions of jobs? I didn't just hear the treasury secretary say he has to fight for those opportunities, did I?

PILGRIM: Yes, I'm afraid you did, Lou. Many of the corporate elites in this country are very happy to continue to push to continue this trade relationship with China.

DOBBS: And the Democratic Party and the Republican Party seem not to be changing much in the way of direction. Maybe the voters in this country will change direction, perhaps thinking independently for a change. I mean, that's outrageous, Kitty. I mean at this point, what I think of this treasury secretary and this administration that's positive would fill up maybe a good thimble or so. Kitty, thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.

Up next here, the corporate elites, financial institutions. Are you ready? They're pummeling middle class Americans and those who aspire to the middle class who are now in danger of losing their homes. We'll have a special report and we're going to name some names tonight.

Also, states overwhelmed by the huge cost of educating the children of illegal aliens demanding that the federal government secure our borders. I'll be joined by Arizona's superintendent of public instruction, Tom Horne. He has a unique perspective on the front line of the immigration, the illegal immigration crisis. And Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona. He'll tell us why his crackdown on illegal immigration is successful while the federal government's so called efforts fail. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A federal judge has ordered Arizona to spend more money to teach English to students in the system who don't speak English. One in every ten students in Arizona must learn accomplish. That's 150,000 students in this state. One estimate showing about 125,000 of those are children of illegal aliens. Educating them costing Arizona taxpayers an estimated $750 million. Joining me now is the man who runs it all. He is the superintendent of the Arizona state public schools. Good to have you with us, Tom Horne.

TOM HORNE, SUPERINTENDENT ARIZONA STATE PUBLIC SCHOOLS: It's good to be here. You're about to have the world's toughest sheriff. Now the world's toughest state superintendent of schools.

DOBBS: And I'm saying that they ought to add something to your names. Also, the smartest and most reasonable.

HORNE: I admire you too, Lou.

DOBBS: Well, I'm serious. The idea that in Arizona, which is border safe, which has one of the largest populations rather than say illegal, of newly-arrived Spanish-speaking students, you don't have bilingual education in the state schools.

HORNE: Well, I eliminated it. They were doing it before I took office. The voters actually passed an initiative in 2000 seeing we should have English immersion rather than bilingual. But that wasn't enforced. I was elected in 2002. In 2003, began to enforce it. So I'm the guy who eliminated bilingual education in Arizona. Kids aren't taught in Spanish anymore. They're taught in English.

DOBBS: Well you know, one of the things that I run into talking with the socioenthnocentric activists around the country who are pushing amnesty for illegal aliens and open borders as I know there must be bilingual education, that we have to be multi-cultural, et cetera, et cetera, what has been your experience? Is it positive? Is it negative? How do their parents, most importantly, how do their parents react?

HORNE: The parents want the kids to learn English. You know when they were teaching anything Spanish, a lot of the kids never did learn English. I have a friend who's a judge who said she had a witness who needed a translator and he was born in this country. That was the scandal of bilingual education. We've eliminated it. Kids are learning English as quickly as possible to compete with the other students.

DOBBS: How much opposition do you get to the idea that Tom Horne isn't going to be spending money on bilingual education?

HORNE: We have to work our way through angry mobs. Police had to let me in another door one time at an arts conference because there was a mob there shaking their fists at me but I'm not intimated as you aren't.

DOBBS: Well, the idea in this state that it cost $750 million to educate children of illegal aliens, is there any recourse to be -- in any way compensated for that?

HORNE: Well, I asked our congressman to get us the $750 million. So far they haven't been able to do it. But the irony, Lou, is that they do give us a little bit of money and the federal judge that I'm fighting said that if he determines we need to spend more than we're spending now. We're spending $350 per student on the English language learners that the other kids don't get, if he decides we need to spend more on that, we can't count the federal money as to how many resources are available. So here's a situation where problems have been caused by the negligence of the federal government because 150,000 children came over illegally.

DOBBS: The federal judge will make this determination and who's behest?

HORNE: The Arizona Center for Law and the Public Interest so called and I'm appealing that. Because I think that we're smart enough to rule ourselves. We're elected representatives and we don't need an aristocracy of lifetime federal judges ruling over us.

DOBBS: Well, as we're discovering, there certainly is such an aristocracy throughout this country. Even Arizona is not safe from such ...

HORNE: We have our fair share.

DOBBS: But you also are a state that is setting an amazing example for the rest of the country with state initiatives and people taking charge. I have to think that Arizona is if not the, one of the most populous states in the entire nation.

HORNE: Lou, if I can get our average test scores up, people will think I'm an educational genius.

DOBBS: Well that's a wonderful insight and I'm going to tell you what, we're going to try everything we can to get border security in this country. It's an outrage.

HORNE: Thank you, Lou, I admire your efforts.

DOBBS: Thank you. It's mutual. Tom Horne, Superintendent of Arizona State Schools.

Coming up next, America's toughest sheriff, Joe Arpaio. I'm going to say it, most reasonable sheriff, setting a national example by actually enforcing our immigration laws. Homeowners on the brink of losing their homes being hit with outrageous fees by mortgage lenders and financial institutions, let me tell you, they're playing scurrilous. We're going to name some names tonight.

And on this Veterans Day we honor men and women who serve this nation in uniform.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't feel like I did anything above and beyond what my other co-pilots or pilots or medics would go out and do.

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DOBBS: We'll have some remarkable stories coming up next. Stay with us. As we continue from Phoenix, Arizona tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: There are literally millions of homeowners who are desperate to save their homes from foreclosure and they're being slapped at the same time with thousands and thousands of dollars in dubious and often illegal charges. By many accounts, this practice is widespread and bankruptcy attorneys are saying the problem may, in fact, worsen. Christine Romans has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bankruptcy specialist worry unnecessary fees could cause distressed homeowners to lose their homes.

HENRY SOMMER, NATIONAL ASSN. OF CONS. BANKRUPTCY ATTYS.: The most important thing for homeowners is to keep meticulous records. Because if you run into this problem really what you often have to do is just go all -- years back and start reconstructing how all the payments should have been applied to figure out what the real balance is.

ROMANS: In court homeowners, are often stunned to find their mortgage servicer has added thousands of dollars in late fees and unexplained charges.

KATHERINE PORTER, UNIVERSITY OF IOWA: Sometimes the homeowner has no idea these fees are even being piled on until it gets to the point of foreclosure or bankruptcy.

ROMANS: In a sharply worded ruling earlier this year, a Louisiana ruled Wells Fargo over charged over $24,000. "It is unconscionable that a lender would represent a certain debt due, allow debtor to base his repayment plan on that sum and then arbitrarily and without notice change the amounts owed." The court found, "Wells Fargo's position is untenable and unworkable." Wells Fargo is appealing. A spokesman said in a statement, "All of our practices and procedures in the handling of bankruptcy cases follow applicable laws and we stand behind our actions in this case." In another case, Ameriquest was ordered to pay $750,000 after the court ruled it was not applying a homeowner's mortgage payments properly. "Ameriquest's accounting practices are wholly unacceptable for a national mortgage lender." Ameriquest is appealing and said it has since sold its mortgage servicing arm to Citigroup.

The practices of the industry have drawn the attention of the justice department which last month asked a Pittsburgh court for sanctions against Country Wide.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: The office of the justice department that monitors the bankruptcy system charged Country Wide lost or destroyed half a million dollars in checks over a two-year period but then still hit homeowners in foreclosure with fines and late charges anyway. Lou, Country Wide tells a different story. A spokesman there said Countrywide's practice not to accrue late charges to the accounts of borrowers in bankruptcy and Country Wide does not charge homeowners for Countrywide's own mistakes. But bankruptcy specialists say they are seeing troubling trends in this industry, Lou.

DOBBS: Well, it's about time we got to the bottom of it. And I would hope that bankruptcy judges throughout this country would slap the dickens out of any financial institution that would do it to first of all homeowners who are in foreclosure but bankruptcy law in 2005 written by basically the credit card companies and financial institutions. Thank you very much, Christine Romans, from New York tonight.

At the top of the hour, "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez. Rick.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: To you, Senor Independent. That would mean Mr. Independent. You like that?

DOBBS: I do like that, indeed. Try it, you'd like it.

SANCHEZ: I like it. I like it if you like it. Because you and I were like this, right?

DOBBS: You got it. Welcome to the folks who want to secure the borders and stop illegal immigration and straighten this country out, you know, independent thinkers.

SANCHEZ: We're all on the same page. Sometimes we come at it differently but we're all essentially getting to the same end. You know something we're going to be talking about tonight, Lou? This is interesting. This is something I wanted to talk about for a long time. These televangelists out there, you're not going to believe what we found out. Some of these televangelists, first of all, they wear $2,000 suits, they drive Rolls Royce, they have their own planes, one bought them went out and bought a $23,000 commode, a toilet. Now I know that's what Jesus would do, right? We're looking into this tonight. We're going to be asking a lot of questions about this. And something else we found out about as we were doing a little digging just this afternoon, this guy in Finland who shot up kids at his school, apparently he was communicating with another kid in the United States. But the up shot is, there's a website where kids go and it's a tribute to the kids who shot up Columbine. And there's hundreds of them who signed up and they talk to each other. We've got to get rid of this and we've got to get MySpace to take it off. Because this is only going to create more violence in this country. Those are the two big stories we're looking into, my friend.

DOBBS: Well, they sound interesting and I hope you also look into those folks -- what do you call them who have that thing that's called a Vatican. That's pretty plush doings, too. Drive by out in Salt Lake City where the Mormon Church has got this pretty fancy deal. You have a lot to report on, partner.

SANCHEZ: Well, but there's a difference, though. One is institutional and the other is personal.

DOBBS: I got you.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. It all still looks like idolatry. Right? All right. We'll get into it.

DOBBS: You got a deal. Rick Sanchez, thanks.

Coming up next, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, one of the country's great Americans. He's leading the fight here in Arizona to enforce immigration laws that our president and his administration haven't got the guts to take care of. They seem to have sold out to other folks like corporate America, socioenthnocentric interests, special interests, you know. Stay with us from Phoenix, Arizona. We're coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Well, as I said, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County is leading the effort not only in Arizona but nationwide to enforce immigration laws in his jurisdiction. He joins us now. Sheriff, good to have you with us.

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Great to see you in person, Lou.

DOBBS: The idea that you're criticized in some quarters for enforcing the law, I mean how do you react to that?

ARPAIO: Well, you know, they call you KKK. They did me. I think it's an honor, right? It means we're doing something.

DOBBS: Just so the right people are doing it.

ARPAIO: I don't know. I'm the elected sheriff 15 years. I take that very serious. And I serve the four million people that we know of that live here. And this is a violation of law. I'm an equal opportunity law enforcing guy. I lock everybody up. So it's a violation of the law, I enforce the law. Very simple.

DOBBS: We heard Casey Lyons reporting tonight, one police chief in Mesa here, that he doesn't agree with that approach. It's as if there's a whole different perspective on the issue of illegal immigration, identity theft, document fraud. Why is there, in your viewpoint?

ARPAIO: Well, I don't like to criticize police chiefs even though they indirectly criticize me. The guy you talked to just came from the L.A. police department.

DOBBS: Right, a sanctuary city we should point out, headed by Bill Bratton, a fellow I knew pretty well in New York.

ARPAIO: Massachusetts, too. This guy is running the Mesa police department. I'm not going to criticize him, but I'm going to do what I feel is right. It happens to be a violation of the law.

DOBBS: Is it distinction, first and foremost, as you put it, you report directly to the 4 million people who make up Maricopa County and the police chiefs report to your city controller or mayor. Do you think that plays a part it in it?

ARPAIO: Well I haven't figured that out yet. I know the mayor of Phoenix has a lot of problems with his illegal immigration situation. Whether the chief is following his lead, I don't know. But I know what I have to do and I do it.

DOBBS: We're going to, if we can, ask you to stay with me.

ARPAIO: Sure.

DOBBS: We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back with Sheriff Joe Arpaio next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We're back with America's toughest sheriff, Joe Arpaio; also, one of the smartest and most effective certainly. Let me ask you, you have more, as I understand it, more deputies trained with immigration and customs enforcement than any other department in the country.

ARPAIO: We have 160. And it's important to be able to enforce -- we're the only law enforcement agency enforcing that new state law. We lock up the smugglers, plus the customers.

DOBBS: Is there resentment by the federal government? Does customs and border protection, does the border patrol have a problem with Joe Arpaio or are they thankful?

ARPAIO: Well, they are thankful. We work very closely with them. They would not have trained 160 of my officers from Washington. I used to be director of the DEA in Mexico City, Texas. I do know where the border is. Most politicians talk about it. They wouldn't know where Mexico is. That's their problem, not my problem. DOBBS: One of the issues here in Arizona is the fact that the border patrol has a policy, not the agents but the management, if you will, of border patrol, 15 crossings before somebody gets serious about it in the border patrol.

ARPAIO: The first crossing they should go to jail. That's how you stop the problem. They cross the border, put them in jail. They can't work behind bars, can they? So you put them in jail. You'll see economically, it's not feasible to come across.

DOBBS: How feasible is it to put up a wall, a fence, and stop it?

ARPAIO: Well, after 14 years (inaudible) on our border, they still come across over the fence, under the fence, and they work. But we have to put them in jail. It is a violation of the law. And they keep talking, no money, they can put billion-dollar fences up but they can't put a few tents up? I've got 2,000 in the tents right here in the desert in Maricopa County. Why can't they put tents up?

DOBBS: Arizona is leading the way in this country. Oklahoma, others. And it's because the people of Arizona have said, "we're going to enforce the law. We're going to support law and order." Do you sense the country changing?

ARPAIO: Yes. Because when I'm on your show, I'm going to get emails, 100 percent will be positive. They come in. People want something done about it.

DOBBS: Right. And Joe Arpaio is the man to do it. America's toughest sheriff, as he's styled out here. Maricopa County sheriff. Joe, it's always good to talk to you.

ARPAIO: Thank you.

DOBBS: And it is...

ARPAIO: Pleasure meeting you.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Thank you.

ARPAIO: Thank you.

DOBBS: And same back at you.

ARPAIO: Thank you.

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 96 percent of you say it's simply absurd and inexplicable to even be discussing the need for border security more than six years after September 11th.

Time now for a few of your thoughts. Let's take a quick look. Don in Arkansas said: "My wife and I are two long-term independents. We're happy to have more like us every day." Glad to join you. And Laurie in Arkansas: "My husband is a veteran of the Iraq war. We're both are so grateful to you for bringing the issues that matter to the American people to light. Congress and everyone in Washington is so out of touch, it is sickening. My husband and I are changing to independent."

That's terrific news. We hope everybody will think about it very seriously. Each of you whose email is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independence Day: Awakening the American Spirit." And I'll be talking with members of the community here in Phoenix this evening later at a townhall meeting. I'm looking forward to that, and I thank you for being with us tonight.

Join us tomorrow. We'll be broadcasting from Seattle, Washington. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from Phoenix. "Out in the Open" with Rick Sanchez begins right now.

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