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Bomb Parts Get Past Security Screeners; Winning in Vegas: Voters Ignoring Party Labels; Another Chile Quake

Aired November 15, 2007 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

REYNOLDS WOLF, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Just an idea, you can see here from just a very active area in terms of these earthquakes, and there's always that possibility that we could have more as we make our way over the next couple of hours. But certainly a very scary thing, to say the very least, when you have a 7.7, a 6.8, and a 6.2, then a 5.6, all in a relatively close area. And certainly something that we're going to watch for you.
This is just one story that we're following for you. This in South America.

Over in the Indian Ocean, we're watching a mammoth storm, the largest storm on the planet, at scattered sites and on parts of India and eventually through Bangladesh over the next couple of days. And that certainly is going to cause a widespread flooding event. Already, three million people have been evacuated from that part of the world.

So we're going to give you more information on what's happening in South America, plus what's happening on the other side of the planet. That's all coming up throughout the rest of the morning and rest of the day.

Back to you.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: OK. Great explanation, as always, Reynolds. Thanks so much. We know you're watching it.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, just days before the holiday travel rush, a disturbing report on airport security. Investigators smuggle bomb-making materials past airport screeners. A House committee hearing on the problem happening right now.

Live now to Washington and our homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve.

Jeanne, I know you're monitoring that hearing. Have you heard anything particularly newsworthy yet?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the GAO was asked, could these components that were smuggled through security actually bring down an airplane? The GAO representative said, well, we didn't have a plane to test that, but we talked to the experts and they believe these components, when put together, could pose a serious threat to aircraft. Kip Hawley, the head of the TSA, responded that the TSA had to dwell on the most serious threats, the things that really could bring down a plane. He did acknowledge that there were vulnerabilities, but he said there are many layers of security at airports. There is new technology that is being deployed, and he said the TSA itself is doing more testing than either the GAO or the DHS inspector general.

Here is a bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIP HAWLEY, TSA ADMINISTRATOR: But to put it in context, if the number of tests that the GAO did for this were measured in miles -- there were 38 tests -- that would be roughly from here to Baltimore. The Office of Inspector General has done roughly 200 tests. This is in a three-month period of this year. That is approximately from here to Philadelphia,.

And in a three-month period at TSA, we do 225,000 tests. These are physical tests with actual bomb components going through with real people smuggling through the checkpoint. That's the equivalent of going around the world eight times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: The point of these tests, of course, is to improve screener performance, but the GAO investigation took place just last spring. Henry Waxman, who is chairing this committee, says it's six years after 9/11, we have spent billions of dollars, and, yet, he says, there is still an embarrassing and dangerous record when it comes to airport security.

Back to you, Tony.

HARRIS: It would be nice to get the success or failure rate of those tests, over 200 tests. That would be nice to know.

Al right. Our homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve for us.

Jeanne, thanks.

MESERVE: You bet.

COLLINS: A confusing new warning about a popular diabetes drug. It tells patients that they should not -- they should or should not take the drug Avandia. And that is a confusing part, whether or not it increases the risk of heart attacks.

The Food & Drug Administration says studies are too contradictary to tell if Avandia is riskier than other diabetes treatments. Another major study is set to begin next year. But in the meantime, the FDA plans to order interim tests to see how patients are doing.

In this day and age it's pretty hard to believe, but a New York doctor is accused of reusing needles and syringes on his patients. Today, more than 600 of them are wondering if they might be infected with HIV or Hepatitis C.

They have all received warnings from the health department. Notices went out after two of the patients did develop Hepatitis C. The health department says Dr. Harvey Finkelstein, an anesthesiologist, had been reusing needles for at least five years.

HARRIS: Cleanup in Kentucky and Tennessee today after rough weather late yesterday. The storm rolled through Laurel County, Kentucky, about 4:00 p.m. local time with heavy rain and high winds. Some witnesses saw a funnel cloud. The storm damaged at least six buildings, but no injuries were reported.

A nearly identical situation in neighboring Tennessee. Authorities say a tornado may have been responsible for this damage last night in Marion County. Some mainor injuries were reported there.

It also brought much-needed rain to Atlanta, but the drought stayed behind. The rain fell a day after Georgia's governor led a prayer vigil for rain at the state capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. SONNY PERDUE (R), GEORGIA: I'm here today to appeal to you, and to all of Georgians and of all people who believe in the power of prayer to ask God to shower our state, our region, our nation with the blessings of water.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Here is the thing. The rain amounted to just a little more than -- well, just a drop in the bucket. It was not nearly enough to help the region's extreme drought.

Pakistan slated to shift gears. A caretaker government is supposed to take over today. That's according to a recent promise from embattled president Pervez Musharraf.

His term was due to end today, but President Musharraf remains in power because of the state of emergency he ordered. The Pakistani leader says he has consulted with opposition parties in forming the caretaker government, which would guide Pakistan toward parliamentary elections in January. Meanwhile, we are told that two of Pakistan's former prime ministers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, are discussing forming an alliance against Musharraf.

COLLINS: Republican, Democrat -- do party labels matter?

CNN Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider has a view from Vegas. He's part of the best political team on television.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): Strike it rich, that's the American dream. Isn't that what the Vegas Strip is all about? Well, yes, but there's another Las Vegas beyond the Strip.

REP. SHELLEY BERKLEY (D), NEVADA: This is a town of dreams and hopes and wishes and outsized dreams.

SCHNEIDER: People who live here have the same dream as the tourists, to strike it rich. They hope to cash in on opportunities offered by a booming service economy.

BERKLEY: The Strip, like now, is the epicenter of Las Vegas. It's the economic engine that drives this amazing train.

SCHNEIDER: Congresswoman Shelley Berkley is that rare phenomenon. She actually grew up here. Her father, a waiter in New York, was promised a new job in California. Forty-four years ago, he drove the family west and made a fateful stop.

BERKLEY: We decided to stop in Vegas for the night, and we never left.

SCHNEIDER: Did they strike it rich? Well, she became a hotel executive and a member of Congress, and she married a doctor, a Republican doctor.

BERKLEY: But he's a Jewish doctor, so I didn't care much what he was, whether he was a Republican or a Democrat.

SCHNEIDER: And her father?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to talk to him and he's going to take care of you.

SCHNEIDER: George Levine (ph) became maitre d' at the Sands, where Frank and Sammy and Dean and the Rat Pack played. Now in retirement, he's still maitre d' at the Greek Isles Hotel, Frank and Sammy and Dean play on by impersonators.

They struck it rich in Vegas. The same thing the flood of new residents, 5,000 a month, hopes to do.

They're colonizing the raw, rugged frontier at the cutting edge of America's new economy. They may be looking for new politics, too.

BERKLEY: A lot of people run. They don't put down that they're Republicans or Democrats. They're independent, like Nevada.

SCHNEIDER: And her husband, the Republican doctor?

BERKLEY: When my husband switched parties, I knew this was going to be a good year for Democrats.

SCHNEIDER (on camera): Las Vegas is the new economy. It's where people are coming to strike it rich. It's also where we're beginning to see a new politics, where people don't pay much attention to party labels. After all, Nevada ballots allow people to vote for none of the above.

Bill Schneider, CNN, Las Vegas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: The Democrats debate and CNN's Wolf Blitzer stirs the pot. The host of tonight's Sin City showdown is going to be joining us right here in the NEWSROOM coming up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: OK. We are continuing to follow the breaking news out of Chile.

It was just -- man, it was just 24 hours ago now that we were telling you about the massive quake, the 7.7 in Chile. And now we're telling you that there have been a series of three additional quakes -- quake, aftershock, quake, aftershock, it seems -- but certainly three separate events this morning.

On the line with us now is Valentina Bustos and she is in Chile.

And Valentine, if you can tell us about the situation where you are right now. Take a look around us and tell us what you're seeing and what you've experienced this morning.

VALENTINA BUSTOS, I-REPORTER IN CHILE: Yes, hi, Tony.

Well, I'm in the house right now. Like you said, there have been stronger aftershocks. People are really scared. They just want to go home.

I was at the university. It got closed, just like the schools. Everybody that are working in buildings, they have been evacuated. So everybody just wants to be home and be with their families.

HARRIS: Valentina, what advice have you been given by, I don't know, officials, authorities? What have you seen in watching local media? What has been the advice as to what you should do in this situation, where you're still clearly in a pretty volatile area?

BUSTOS: Yes. Well, the authorities just said that we should remain home. Just stay calm. Do not respond to people that are saying that there might be a tsunami, because some people just want to go inside their houses and other houses and rob. So, just to stay home and calm, and help are being sent for everybody that has a problem.

HARRIS: Yes.

BUSTOS: So, just to stay at home.

HARRIS: Are you -- are you safe? How about your family?

BUSTOS: Yes. My mom just arrived from work. She works at a building on the 17th floor. They sent her home. My dad, I think he's going to arrive pretty soon, and everybody is just going home.

HARRIS: OK.

Valentina Bustos joining us from Chile.

Be safe, lady. Thank you for your time. Thanks for calling.

And thanks to all of our I-Reporters, who I understand now are starting to send material to us here at CNN. We will turn some of that around.

Again, just another quake 6.8 in magnitude. A series of seismic events this morning on the heels of that massive quake yesterday, 7.7.

We will continue to follow developments and bring you the latest video, I-Reports, and when we get some actual video from the scene, we will bring all of that to you right here in the NEWSROOM.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: Las Vegas, fortunes can change on a roll of the dice. Or maybe even the turn of a phrase. Tonight it is center stage for Democrats gunning to be president.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer will host tonight's debate. He is there this morning for us to sort of set the stage.

Good morning to you, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Heidi. How are you?

COLLINS: I am just great.

Hey, I think a lot of people are wondering whether or not tonight will sort of be a make it or break it evening for Hillary, who is clearly at this point the frontrunner.

BLITZER: She's -- there's no doubt in all the national polls she's the decisive frontrunner, although in Iowa right now, which is the first contest on January 3rd, it's very, very close. It's neck and neck between her and Barack Obama and John Edwards. So it's a real contest in Iowa.

She herself acknowledges she didn't do all that great in the last debate, wasn't her best day, she told our Candy Crowley aboard the CNN Election Express, but she's got her work cut out for her tonight. She knows she's the frontrunner. All of her aides knows she's the frontrunner, and with that frontrunner status comes that bull's eye. All the other candidates who are trying to move up are going to be going after her, and I suspect they will try to do more of that tonight.

COLLINS: Yes. What does that mean, Wolf, for Barack Obama? What do you expect to hear from him?

BLITZER: I think it basically goes against his nature to be as aggressive, let's say, as John Edwards has been. John Edwards has been on fire over these past several months. He's been really, really hammering away, going after Hillary Clinton directly on a lot of the issues, accusing her of waffling, not taking decisive positions, and not speaking effectively, not really telling the truth, if you will, about her own record.

And that's not necessarily Barack Obama's style, although some of his supporters are saying he should get a little bit more aggressive if he wants to move up. So he's under pressure to do something, but he's got to feel comfortable doing it, and I'm not sure he feels as comfortable in hammering away at Hillary Clinton as, let's say, John Edwards does.

COLLINS: Yes. And you know obviously, clearly there the contention of people who really didn't like to see that kind of thing, these sort of attacking the other candidates and so forth, so I imagine that trying to find that fine line.

BLITZER: You're right because that runs -- that runs a risk. If you get too tough and you become too aggressive, do you turn off that base, that Democratic base, and says, you know what? Hold your fire for the Republicans. Don't have this internal war among the Democrats because that only will benefit the Republicans in the long run.

On the other hand, the argument is that if Hillary Clinton, for example, can't take the heat now from fellow Democrats, you know it's going to be a lot more intense if she were to get the Democratic nomination and the Republicans start really, really blasting away.

COLLINS: Yes. So what about the issues? Clearly, we're going to be talking and seeing a whole lot more, specifically tonight, about the specific issues that these candidates are addressing.

In particular, I want to talk to you about Hillary Clinton and this immigration policy. Obviously yesterday was a very big day for Governor Spitzer, who changed his mind, if you will, or maybe I should even say decided to, in his words, listen closely to what his contingent was telling him, which was that the drivers' licenses for illegal immigrants in the state of New York were not what they wanted to see happen. She was kind of ambivalent about her position on that.

BLITZER: Right. And she was severely criticized because she seemed to say, I understand, he makes a good point in offering these drivers' licenses to illegal immigrants in New York State, Governor Eliot Spitzer, and then she says but she's not sure it's a good idea.

Finally yesterday, after Eliot Spitzer announced he was backing away, no more drivers' licenses for illegal immigrants in New York State, she issued a flat statement saying that if she were president she would not be in favor of giving drivers' licenses to illegal immigrants, and went on to say the country needs comprehensive immigration reform. But she's going to have to take some clear-cut positions, otherwise she'll be accused of waffling or triangulation, as some of the pundits call it, and that's not necessarily going to be good for her.

So that's going to be something she and her supporters clearly have been thinking a lot about. They've been rehearsing, they've been practicing. All the candidates do that coming into a big debate like tonight, and I'm sure they're getting ready for all sorts of possibilities.

Our job as questioners, and my job as the moderator, is to make sure we stay focused, that the seven Democratic presidential candidates answer the actual questions that they're asked, and we'll try to do, as we say here at CNN, try to keep them honest.

COLLINS: All right, sounds very good. I know you'll do a great job.

Nice to see you here on the program. I know it's pretty early out there, Wolf. You have got a long day ahead of you.

We will be watching tonight.

Wolf Blitzer, thanks again for your time.

And just want to remind everybody, be sure to tune in tonight for an America votes special. The Democrats will be debating, as you just heard, hosted by our own Wolf Blitzer, live in Las Vegas. Also, don't miss Campbell Brown's CNN debut.

They are part of the best political team on television. It all kicks off 8:00 Eastern.

HARRIS: Tonight's execution of a child killer put on hold by a federal court. Now what the parents of the young victim have to stay.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: In today's CNN Heroes, Oscar winning actor Forest Whitaker, he tells us how a neurosurgeon is showing underprivileged children the future -- the real possibility they can become brain surgeons.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREST WHITAKER, ACTOR: Unfortunately, right now tumors of the brain are the biggest cause of death in children, really, over leukemia. And I don't think people really understand that or know.

Hi. I'm Forest Whitaker, and my hero is Dr. Keith Black, who is a neurosurgeon and researcher who has saved many lives in his work.

DR. KEITH BLACK, NEUROSURGEON: There's nothing more frightening than a brain tumor. It affects our ability to speak, to feel, to interact with the environment. We're dedicated to finding effective treatments for that.

WHITAKER: My grandmother had a brain tumor. They told us that it was inoperable and that she wouldn't live out the year. And my mother and my sister, they found Dr. Black, and he did conduct the surgery, and she lived about nine years from that time.

BLACK: You get to help people. You get to try to have an impact on the lives of people facing very difficult problems.

What you see here is probably a metastatic tumor. This would be a good patient actually for the (INAUDIBLE).

One of the most important things I think that we can do is to reach back into the communities to provide for the next generation, who hopefully will do even better than we've done in making discovers.

So we created a program called Brainworks. We bring about 200 students from low-income schools. They get to be a neurosurgeon for a day.

WHITAKER: They're able to play around with neurological toys, looking through microscopes, doing surgery on different things, and having discussions where their voice is being heard.

BLACK: Some of the students, they're now getting ready to apply to medical school. They want to go into neurology, science, as a result of that exposure.

WHITAKER: It's that seed that I think he gives to people, that seed of hope when people come and sit in his chair, that seed those kids have when they hear that, yes, I can do that. He did that.

He is allowed them to embrace their futures and believe in their dreams. He's a hero.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Hey, I want to invite to head on over to cnn.com/heros to learn about what Dr. Black is doing to try to cure brain cancer.

While you're there, you can also vote for the CNN Hero who has most inspired you. The viewers' choice will be honored during a live global broadcast on December 6th hosted by our own Anderson Cooper.

COLLINS: A monster storm targets South Asia and millions of people scramble to get out of its way.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: And frightening news about airport security this morning. Investigators able to smuggle bomb-making components past security checkpoints. The government accountability office says the devices could cause severe damage to an airplane, like what happens to this car.

Investigators conducted undercover tests at 19 different airports across the country. The Government Accountability Office says they were able to smuggle bomb materials in their luggage and concealed on their bodies.

Now, the Transportation Security Administration says screening checkpoints are just one part of a layered security system, and the agency says it is working to improve screener accuracy. CNN was given access to testing where a screener misses a potential danger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TSA TESTER: What does this look like inside here?

TSA TESTER: Jumpin' out at you.

TSA TESTER: Exactly, so what do you have there?

TSA TESTER: You have an IED.

TSA TESTER: That's right. You just missed that one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: A House committee is holding a hearing on the findings right now.

All the extra screening, the restrictions on how much shampoo you can carry on the plane, but bomb parts get missed? We asked CNN's security analyst Clark Kent Irvin how this could happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: That's the $20 billion question. I say $20 billion, because that's the minimum figure everybody agrees on, has been spent since 9/11 to improve aviation security, and then time and again, year after year, investigation after investigation by the GAO, by my former Office of Inspector General, by TSA itself, shows that it's just as easy, as I said yesterday, to get guns and knives and bombs past the screening workforce as it was on 9/11 itself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Ervin says technology to improve screening needs to move from the testing phase to actually being used. CNN security watch keeps you up to date on safety. Stay tuned day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

COLLINS: The long-awaited execution of a child killer is scheduled for 6:00 p.m., unless the U.S. supreme court steps in. A federal appeals court gave its own go-ahead a short time ago. The decision follows a legal challenge to Florida's method of lethal injection.

CNN's Susan Candiotti explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Vicki and Junny Rios-Martinez, after waiting more than 16 years, death can't come soon enough for Mark Dean Schwab. He killed their son.

JUNNY RIOS-MARTINEZ, VICTIM'S FATHER: Murder is against the law, and sooner or later, if it's not tomorrow, it's his turn. He's next. And he's not going to walk away from it.

CANDIOTTI: Their son Junny was just 11 when Mark Dean Schwab kidnapped, raped, murdered him and stuffed his body in a footlocker. Last-minute defense appeals, mainly over whether Florida's lethal cocktail used in executions amounts to cruel and inhumane punishment, could delay the execution. Not surprisingly, Junny's parents don't have much sympathy for that argument.

RIOS-MARTINEZ: ... is that this maggot targeted, kidnapped, and murdered my son, and everyone seems to forget who the victim is here.

CANDIOTTI: The U.S. Supreme Court is reviewing a Kentucky lethal injection case, and until then has stayed executions in Texas, Arkansas, Missouri and Virginia. Schwab is scheduled to be the first execution since Florida's Supreme Court lifted a one-year moratorium on lethal injections. They were put on hold after it took 34 minutes for killer Angel Diaz to die. The execution missed a vein. A drug mix used in more than 30 states causes paralysis. Death penalty opponents say it prevents inmates from expressing pain if there's a problem.

STEVEN SHAPIRO, LEGAL DIRECTOR, ACLU: Veterinarians in this country will not use this drug mixture to put household pets to sleep because it creates too great a risk of unnecessary pain that is easily avoidable.

CANDIOTTI: For Junny's parents, that debate is a symbol of a criminal justice system gone awry.

VICKY RIOS-MARTINEZ, VICTIM'S MOTHER: As we have the greatest criminal justice system in the world, victims have no justice. There is no justice system for victims.

CANDIOTTI: Mark Schwab, who looks like a kid himself, was out of prison only about a month on early release for sexual assault when he kidnapped, raped and murdered the boy. Schwab posed as a reporter and spent time at their home for more than three weeks before making his move. Junny's parents want to witness the execution, though it won't end their pain.

J. RIOS-MARTINEZ: It's a life sentence.

V. RIOS-MARTINEZ: We'll never have our son back. That's a life sentence that we serve without him.

CANDIOTTI: They plan a celebration this weekend at a park dedicated to their son, no matter what happens to his killer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Susan Candiotti joining us live. Susan, just wondering what the chances are that another court could intervene before tonight's execution?

CANDIOTTI: Well, Heidi, Schwab has two more opportunities. He has asked for stays from both the Florida supreme court and the U.S. Supreme Court, and legal experts say his best chance, really, is with the U.S. supreme court. Why? Because that court has stayed every execution since it agreed to review a case in Kentucky that also involved lethal injection.

The only possible difference here in Florida is that Florida just wrapped up a one-year moratorium on lethal injections, capital punishment, after it reviewed its procedures and revised some of its training after it had a botched execution here. At this point the victim's family is making its way here to the state prison and Schwab has had his last contact visit with his mother and his aunt, and any minute now he'll be having his last meal of what he requested. That was eggs, ham, sausage, and hash brown potatoes.

Back to you, Heidi.

COLLINS: All right. CNN's Susan Candiotti live from Florida this morning. Susan, thanks.

HARRIS: We're continuing to follow the breaking news out of chile for you this morning, and these new pictures coming into CNN just moments ago. Three new quakes to tell you about today, formally now being called aftershocks, measuring 6.2, 6.8 and 5.6. Boy, that 6.8 really strong. All in the same general area as yesterday's massive 7.7 quake. No reports of injuries so far, but as we heard just moments ago from our i-Reporter there in Chile, Valentina Busto, there are a lot of frayed nerves right now. And I guess you can understand that a lot of seismic activity in Chile right now. And take a look at these pictures.

I mean, you're looking at homes now that are You're looking at homes that are of no use to those families. They have to be pretty much brought down. You can't live in those homes. We will continue to bring you the latest video. Let me -- just look at this. But two -- make that three quakes now officially being called aftershocks in Chile, and again, this is a very seismic area right now about 750, 800 miles north of Santiago. More pictures when we get them right here in the NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: Wow. A tough situation there.

I also want to tell but this story. His real name is Hunter, but his nickname tells the story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do people call you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deerslayer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: This 6-year-old has deer in the crosshairs.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: I've got to tell you, this next issue made for a really spirited debate in our morning meeting, get your child vaccinated for risk going to jail. The choice facing parents in Prince Georges County Maryland. Officials say the threat is a last resort. Critics say it goes to far.

Barbara Loe Fisher is president of the National Vaccine Information Center, an organization concerned about vaccine safety. And Barbara thinks this goes way too far. Dr. William Schaffner is chair of preventative medicine at Vanderbilt University. He is also on the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. Thank you both for being with us.

Barbara, you know, the law is the law in this area. I guess we're talking about 2,300 children who have not been vaccinated in P.G. county out of a population of 131,000 children. So statistically the number is small, but it does spotlights these parents. What is going on here? Do you understand why these parents are not, you know, following the law and getting their children vaccinated?

BARBARA LOE FISHER, NATL. INFORMATION CTR.: Well, I think terrorizing parents and throwing them in jail for not getting their child a chickenpox shot is definitely going too far. Some of these children may have had serious reactions to previous vaccinations, and these parents are trying to protect them from harm.

HARRIS: Do we know that? Do we know that's the reason?

FISHER: We don't know, but whatever the reason is, when state officials use fear and intimidation to threaten parents and force them to do what they want them to do, this causes parents to fear and mistrust government officials.

HARRIS: Barbara, hang on a second. Doctor, I'll get you in here in a second here. But the school system is saying this has been the policy. You've got kids in the system; maybe you don't. But we've been talking about this since September. What else is the school system to do? What's a better way to handle this, Barbara?

FISHER: Well, these are two new vaccines that have been added to the schedule, and I think it raises the question, how many vaccines are we going to force our children to get in order to get a public education? A lot of parents are asking that question. They think too many vaccines are required. Hepatitis B is not a disease you get in a school setting and chickenpox is very mild for most children. So that may be part of the issue.

HARRIS: OK, doctor, weigh in here.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, VANDERBILT UNIV. MEDICAL CTR.: Yes, sir. Well, I think most of these parents have just, frankly, blown it off. There may be some with medical contraindications to their children or even a religious or philosophical objection, but Maryland has got a procedure that they can go through. We have eliminated virtually all of these diseases of childhood by obliging all of us to participate. If we all get our children vaccinated, each child is protected, and we help protect the others. If we let down our guard, airplanes will bring these diseases into this country again. It's happened. We have to remain strong.

HARRIS: Come on, Barbara, that makes sense. Come on, that makes sense.

FISHER: Well, listen chickenpox is not smallpox, hepatitis B is not polio. We are looking at vaccines that are being mandated for school entry that do not fit the smallpox or polio model, and I think we really need to ask, every time industry producing a new vaccine and the CDC recommends it for universal use for our children, are we going to automatically mandate it?

I think people need to take back the power by having their elected officials vote on whether a vaccine should be required in the state. Right now, rule-making authority with public health departments allows public health officials to make that call, and I think parents should have more...

HARRIS: Doctor, that doesn't sound unreasonable.

SCHAFFNER: Well, there's a process in every state, and it differs among the different states. If new vaccines are added to the schedule, there are always public hearings. Some states actually require a legislative vote. So it varies among the states, but it's all public, it's all open. We've all joined together. Let's protect all of our children against these diseases.

FISHER: That is not true. In many states there are pro forma hearings, public hearings, but the public resides with public health officials, and most of them have not met a vaccine they did not want to mandate.

I think that we really need to have this debate, because there are many more vaccines coming, and we need to know whether we're going to have the power through our elected officials of deciding which vaccines are children are going to be required to take.

HARRIS: Hey, Barbara, I'm just curious, if there is a waiver system in Prince Georges County, shouldn't these parents who have objections, whatever the reason, shouldn't they avail themselves to that system?

FISHER: The problem is a medical exemption is very hard to get because there are almost no contraindications now. When a doctor tries to write a medical exemption, often he is harassed or she is harassed by the public health officials if that condition this child has does not strictly conform to the CDC guidelines. Religious exemption is almost impossible to get in many states, too, because health officials are throwing parents and grilling them...

HARRIS: The doctor from Vanderbilt there in his lab coat, he just smirked. Why did you smirk, sir?

SCHAFFNER: I think the medical contraindications are clear. Pediatricians and family doctors recognize them and they're respected. Philosophic and religious exemptions, there's always a process in every state. Barbara is right, some states are much tougher on that than others, but there is a process available.

I think the equation is simple, would you rather have children vaccinated, or would you rather have the disease? The use of vaccines...

HARRIS: Let her answer that, doctor.

FISHER: I think that the ethical principle of informed consent that is applied to every other medical procedure that carries a risk of injury or death must also be applied to vaccination, because the one-size-fits-all approach doesn't fit everyone. We have a lot of children who are reacting, regressing after vaccinations to poor health. This is part of the reason this debate is getting so intense.

SCHAFFNER: Yes, yes.

FISHER: And we need to have the right to informed consent like we do for any other medical procedure.

HARRIS: Dr. Schaffner, Barbara, great to see you both. Thanks for the debate. That was good. That was spirited.

SCHAFFNER: Thank you, Tony, and thank you, Barbara.

FISHER: Thank you.

HARRIS: Thank you, both.

Are you driving the safest car on the road? Don't be a dummy. Stick around for the new safety ratings.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: More cars than ever are safer to drive. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety tested them. Ouch. It says the number of safe vehicles tripled in the past year. Thirty-four 2008 models rose to the top of the annual safest list. Ford's Volvo unit and Honda are riding high, claiming the most number of safe vehicles, and Subaru and Hyundai each have four on the list. And the Toyota Tundra is the first pickup truck to make the grade.

(MARKET UPDATE)

HARRIS: They call him deer slayer, a 6-year-old who can show the big boys a thing or two about how to bag a doe.

Sandra Kirk (ph) with affiliate KRLT is on the hunt in Bebe (ph), Arkansas.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDRA KIRK (ph), KRLT REPORTER: Hunter Orman is your typical 6- year-old kid. But there is something that makes him standout. What do people call you?

HUNTER ORMAN: Deer slayer. KIRK: That's because this first-grader has already taken six deer in the past year. His biggest, a 140-pound doe.

CAYNE ORMAN, "DEERSLAYER'S FATHER: We've just had a ball. He does really good. I didn't think he was big enough to go last year, and we practiced a whole bunch with the 22. We got him the 223, which is a small rifle, about as small a rifle as you can hunt with, and he practiced with it, and he actually killed two deer with it, and then he wanted to try a crossbow. It actually seemed to work better than the gun.

KIRK: A young man of few words, Hunter does have some advice for his fellow hunters.

H. ORMAN: Be quiet, practice.

KIRK: Which he does plenty of.

C. ORMAN: I don't even have to tell him how to do anything anymore. He just sits there when the deer comes in. He doesn't move. He knows exactly what to do.

KIRK: With all the deer hunting experience, Hunter is also working on another type of game.

H. ORMAN: My dad killed a turkey and I killed a turkey at the same time.

C. CAYNE: We have several small ground lines set up, that he and I can sit there and -- we can move a little bit, stuff like that. So we take a few snacks and some drinks and things. But the big time we sit there and we've had some pretty good luck.

KIRK: And a good teacher.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Hunter was in a special camp that allowed him to take extra does. This season he has his sights set on bagging a buck.

COLLINS: Mystery in Houston. Was someone inside when this building came tumbling down?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Was someone inside? That is the question in Houston as searchers look for a possible victim in a building implosions. Look at this. The Crowne Plaza Hotel was demolished Sunday, but just before it came crashing down, an outside door was seen closing. Home video of the implosion from another angle saw the door's closing. Dogs may have sniffed something yesterday, but the recovery effort is pretty dangerous, as you can see. All that debris very unstable. Still, police do not know if someone actually closed the door, or if a gust of wind closed it.

HARRIS: How about this one, Heidi? Who would be so bold as to tell Santa to stick a stocking in it? A company that dispatches the jolly old Clause to shopping centers and malls in Australia has banned "ho, ho, ho." They claim Santa's booming-bass belly laugh scares little kids, and may -- and may -- insult women. Remember Don Imus? Santas have been instructed to spread cheer with a hearty "ha ha ha" instead.

Some Santas are ignoring the order, so they might get the old heave-ho.

COLLINS: Are you kidding me?

HARRIS: P.C. run amuck.

COLLINS: Are you kidding me?

HARRIS: Can't make this stuff up, Heidi. There you go.

COLLINS: I'm just going to call it a day.

HARRIS: There you go.

COLLINS: All right, Tony, nice to see you. CNN NEWSROOM continues one hour from now. Bye, everybody.

HARRIS: "YOUR WORLD TODAY" is next. Have a great day, everyone.

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