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Bonds: Legend Or Liar?; March For Justice; Killer Cyclone; Sin City Showdown

Aired November 16, 2007 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The NFL draft and -- no.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): Ali Velshi, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Tony Harris. Stay informed all day in the CNN NEWSROOM. He's what's on the run down.

Home run king indicted in a steroids investigation. What does it mean for Barry Bonds, for the record, for baseball. A sports writer weighs in.

COLLINS: A monster storm slams south Asia. Now U.S. Marines may be on the way to help. We'll go live to Bangladesh.

HARRIS: Kids, cover your eyes. Santa's got a brand news bag and a gun. Spreading what? Spreading fear, not cheer this Friday . . .

COLLINS: It's a kid show.

HARRIS: Oh, my. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: He is the home run king. An idol to many kids. And now potentially a felon. Barry Bonds is facing federal indictment, accused of lying in a long-running steroids investigation. Here now CNN's Ted Rowlands.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): Baseball's home run king, Barry Bonds, is facing four counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice for allegedly lying under oath about steroid use. Bonds broke the Major League Baseball home run record this year under a cloud of suspicion that he used performance enhancing drugs. Something Bonds has always denied.

BARRY BONDS: This record is not tainted at all, at all, period.

ROWLANDS: But according to the 10-page indictment filed in San Francisco, the government has evidence "including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing substances for Bonds and other professional athletes." Barry Bonds isn't in trouble for using steroids. He was one of several professional athletes that testified under a grant of immunity in 2003 in front of a grand jury. The deal was simple -- if you tell the truth, you're fine. If you don't, you're subject to prosecution.

The indictment alleges that the testimony given by Bonds in 2003 was "intentionally evasive, false, and misleading."

MICHAEL RAINS, BARRY BONDS' ATTORNEY: What we will keep asking is whether, whether the media and whether the government of this country will spend as much time repairing Barry's reputation as it has spent destroying him after he is proven innocent by a fair and impartial jury.

ROWLANDS: The indictment sent shockwaves through the sports world and even brought a reaction from the White House. A statement issued said in part, "the president is very disappointed to hear this. Clearly, this is a sad day for baseball."

Bonds, if convicted of the charges, could spend several years in prison. His first appearance in San Francisco federal court is scheduled for December 7th. Marking the start of a long legal ordeal and likely the end of his baseball career.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Want to give you a closer look now at the time frame of the Barry Bonds scandal. He's been dogged by whispers of steroids since his physical transformation began in the late '90s. At the same time his power at the plate surged. The indictment says investigators found so called doping calendars. They were marked BB and were dated 2001. The indictment accuses Bonds of lying during a 2003 investigation into steroids. Steroids suspicions hung over Bonds as he chased the home run record, one of the most sacred titles in sports. On August 7th, he hammered number 756 and eclipsed Hank Aaron's long-standing home run record.

HARRIS: How the Bonds' indictment -- a cloud over baseball or a chance to clear the air? CNN's Larry Smith covers the sports beat for us and joins us now.

Hey, first of all, I just want to go back because there's some new information that we can talk about in just a bit. Are you surprised by it?

LARRY SMITH, CNN SPORTS: Oh, I was surprised. The timing of it because the grand jury is still . . .

HARRIS: Are you surprised by the timing or that he was indicted at all?

SMITH: Well I'm surprised because it looked like it was dead in the water. I mean, you know, Greg Anderson, his long time friend and trainer, was sitting behind bars (INAUDIBLE) . . . HARRIS: And it was thought that he had the keys to this.

SMITH: In contempt of court. Exactly, was not talking. Doesn't appear was ever going to talk. And yet, you know, all of a sudden this comes out. I was at -- I didn't even hear anything until maybe this grand jury term ended, which was going to be after the first of the year.

HARRIS: So now we're getting information reported by "The San Francisco Chronicle," the biggest newspaper out there, that this idea of a test -- because that's the center of this. Now the bombshell yesterday was that the federal prosecutors were claiming to have test results that showed positive for steroid use. And we were wondering, whoa, whoa, weren't you wondering, where did this come from?

SMITH: Yes, well, I was. Well, at the same time, keep in mind before baseball adopted its current policy, the old policy you could be tested once per year but it would take five positive tests to have a 10 game suspension. Now it has more teeth once Congress came in and began to threaten to get involved. Was this one of those tests possibly that somehow they had? I don't know.

HARRIS: And now it appears, according to the reporting in "The San Francisco Chronicle," that the evidence has come from Balco itself, from the initial raid back in, help me, in . . .

SMITH: 2003.

HARRIS: 2003. So the question becomes, if you had evidence of a positive test in 2003, why are we just hear being this now? Help me, Larry.

SMITH: Right. Yes, I can't answer that because, you know, I think so many people in Major League Baseball, the love for Hank Aaron . . .

HARRIS: Why would you let him break the record if you had evidence that he was cheating in the game?

SMITH: Yes, he had that. Also, too, with George Mitchell, the former senator, who is heading up the steroids probe in baseball, you know, there's this unnamed person who is going to be player, active player, who's going to talk to him sometime soon. Could he have said something that jump-started something? Again, you know, those questions still have be answered.

HARRIS: And then again, did you just set a perjury trap for Barry Bonds if you knew he had tested positive from Balco's own records and you asked him this question and he -- you know, where is this question coming from. OK.

Talk about his legacy. What do you think this indictment does to the legacy of a player that, look, at, you know, with the record that he holds, would have to be considered a top three, top five player all time? SMITH: Oh, I think so. And there's no question. And that's kind of the sad thing about Barry Bonds. If he did do steroids, and now is the first time we have a public, you know, record that he did.

HARRIS: Yes, information, sure.

SMITH: He didn't have to. He was still going to be a great player. He would not have hit 762 home runs. But at the same time, he's a phenomenal player. So that's the one thing right now in terms of his legacy. There's no question it's tarnished. There's no question it's going to hurt his Hall of Fame candidacy in a few years when he's eligible. Look at Mark McGwire and the steroids issue that floated around him at the end of his career and it certainly hurt him in (INAUDIBLE). It's going to hurt him as well.

In terms of the records, Major League Baseball historically does not cancel records. They just don't do that no matter what you do on or off or what you're accused of, whatever.

HARRIS: Jack Canamity (ph), who died, I don't know about the link to his death and steroid use and abuse, but he certainly used steroids during his playing career and he is still listed as a league MVP.

SMITH: An MVP. And Barry Bonds won seven MVPs, which nobody in sports anywhere has ever done. So will that go away? Baseball, historically has, you look at history, no, it won't go away.

HARRIS: Wow. Hey, if you get any more information, will you give us a shout?

SMITH: I sure will.

HARRIS: All right. Larry, great to see you. Thanks, man.

SMITH: Good seeing you.

HARRIS: Steroids and sports. How big a problem are we talking about here? The bottom of the hour, an investigative report who spent the past year looking into it.

COLLINS: A monster cyclone slams Bangladesh. The death toll, 500 and rising according to local officials. This is the calm after the storm. Now village after village, tens of thousands of homes and crops damaged or destroyed by the cyclone. The storm had 130-mile- per-hour winds, rain, and high tides. We still don't know the full extent of the devastation because rescue workers have yet to reach many of the remote areas. Telephone and power lines are down, though, making everything that much more complicated.

Washington wants to help with relief efforts. CNN has learned Defense Secretary Robert Gates is expected to approve plans today to help. Up to three Marine amphibious war ships will move to the coast of Bangladesh. They will assist if Bangladesh wants the help. We'll have a live report coming up from Bangladesh ahead right here in the CNN NEWSROOM. Well, it's out with the old and in with the new in Pakistan. This morning, Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf swore in the new interim government. All hand-picked by him. All allied with him. They'll be in charge until national elections are held early next year. Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto rejected the government, calling it unacceptable. Bhutto's comments came shortly after she was freed from three days of house arrest.

And in another development, the U.S. point man has arrived in Pakistan. Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte is set to hold talks with President Musharraf and urge him to lift the state of emergency.

HARRIS: And back in this country, the big rigs are rolling again near Los Angeles. A vital southbound truck tunnel is open again this morning after a fiery crash last month. More than 30 vehicles, most of them trucks, crashed in a chain reaction collision that killed three people. That was October 12th. Yesterday the tunnel reopened ahead of schedule. Interstate 5 is the main west coast highway between Mexico and Canada. Authorities initially feared the tunnel would be closed for months, but contractors completed the work in 33 days, earning a $3 million bonus for their efforts.

COLLINS: A march against hate. A rally for justice revving up right now in Washington. Our Don Lemon is there. He has a special guest alongside.

Don, first, tell us what you're seeing around you and what this is all about.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning to you, Heidi.

Really loud here. You can see the speaker. They are on the stage right here in the middle of the crowd. We're in Freedom Plaza here in Washington, D.C. Right between 13th and 14th street on Pennsylvania Avenue.

I just want to give you an idea of what the crowds like as the speakers here are gearing up for a noon start. The marchers are starting to get off the bus, we're told, at the armory.

Mark, if you can just swing around to your left here. I want to show you where it's going to go. Go to your left this way. It's going to go down Pennsylvania Avenue, keep going around here, down Pennsylvania Avenue, Mark, keep going this way. And then on the other side of the clock tower, way over here, which is the library. A big long swing here. That's the Justice Department. They are going to march around the Justice Department seven times as Joshua marched around Jericho, they say to bring down the walls of justice, as they say, and then the Capitol back there in the background.

So all these folks here are gearing up. A lot of people here. We saw Maxine Waters, of course, the Reverend Al Sharpton and a lot of people from buses all over the country. I see Roland Martin here from CNN standing right over here. But this celebrity everyone's taking pictures of, who also happens to be a judge and can talk to us about the legal issues. Because here's what folks are interested in.

The Reverent Al Sharpton and everyone here, they say the Justice Department should intervene and do something about these hate crimes, do something about what they call hate crimes, these incidents of nooses. Jena, Louisiana, and all of those things. That's a big challenge.

JUDGE GREG MATHIS, HOST, "JUDGE MATHIS SHOW": Absolutely. You know we have to hold the Justice Department accountable because they're the ones that are responsible for going in to local and state jurisdictions to make sure that race-based injustice by law enforcement doesn't continue.

LEMON: But you're a judge. I mean, do we really need that sort of legislation because they're saying it's already covered under civil rights laws and it doesn't need to be covered under hate crime laws.

MATHIS: Well, if that were the case, we'd see a lot more prosecutions if it was already covered by current civil rights legislation. We believe that, one, it doesn't cover those of sexual orientation, for example. Secondly, the penalties must be more harsh to avoid it. We've seen the case in Virginia, or West Virginia, just recently where they . . .

LEMON: (INAUDIBLE).

MATHIS: Yes, where they raped, pillaged, starved a young lady, made her eat feces. I believe that if hate crime legislation that called for stiffer penalties would have been in place, that wouldn't have happened.

LEMON: All right. OK. Thank you very much. Judge Greg Mathis, along with number of folks here, dignitaries as well.

I just want to show you, justice in Jena, Louisiana, the marchers had shirts and all types of banners. Same here. March on Washington 2007 the caps here. And they're also wearing the same thing, t- shirts, Tony and Heidi, that will reflect at least what they're trying to do and the message here.

We're going to be here throughout the day and bring it to you this morning in the NEWSROOM, as well as this afternoon in the CNN NEWSROOM. Folks are starting to -- the crowd is starting to gather now and it looks like, for the most part, it's going to be a fairly sizable crowd.

COLLINS: All right. CNN's Don Lemon for us in Washington today. Don, we'll keep checking back with you. Thank you.

HARRIS: Air disaster on the ground in France. Injuries and damage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Heidi Collins.

You know it's time to give up the wildlife when . . .

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I screamed and I screamed, "somebody help me. He's going to kill me."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And she thought he was tame.

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HARRIS: A killer cyclone barrels into Bangladesh. Hundreds are dead, tens of thousands homeless. CNN's Dan Rivers live in the capital now.

Dan, we've been seeing some amazing pictures of the aftermath. How many -- how are the people sort of describing the storm, the storm surge, as it slammed ashore?

DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, everyone here is saying it is, without doubt, the worst cyclone since 1991. Then 130,000 people were killed, if you can believe that. This time we simply don't know how many people have perished. At the moment, the government is telling local TV 500 dead. But, frankly, so much of the electricity network and phone network is out, the death toll is almost certain to rise.

HARRIS: And, Dan, what's being done for the people who survived the storm and what's on the way?

RIVERS: Well, a huge aid operation is swinging into place. Three war ships from the U.S. Navy is en route, we understand, with U.S. Marines weighing in to help. The Bangladesh army is trying to get down there, although a lot of the roads are blocked with fallen trees and bridges out and so on.

We understand the Bangladesh navy is also trying to get to some islands which have been completely cut off. At the moment, the seas are still very rough down there and that's hampering the effort. But all the NGOs that you would expect, the Red Cross, the Red Crescent, the World Food Program are all beginning to try and get large amounts of supplies into the country. But one thing that's really hampering the situation is the lack of electricity right now.

HARRIS: Yes, CNN's Dan Rivers for us on the phone from Dakah (ph), Bangladesh.

Dan, appreciate it. Thank you.

COLLINS: Earthquakes rocked South America. A strong one rattling a remote region of Ecuador near it's border with Peru. The magnitude 6.7 quake didn't cause much damage because it was located some 75 miles underground.

Meanwhile, the ground under Chile has really rocked. Three large earthquakes there shook a northern desert region in a space of about 13 minutes. It happened around the same time yesterday. They were all considered aftershock from the 7.7 magnitude earthquake the day before. Two women were killed in that quake. More than 150 people were injured. Thousands of others left homeless.

HARRIS: Did she play the gender card in Las Vegas?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People are not attacking me because I'm a woman, they're attacking me because I'm ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Hey now. The front-runner fights back in the CNN presidential debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: You know, it's just difficult to know from day to day what the heck is going to happen with the markets. I mean, really, just seconds ago, Heidi, we were plus nine, plus six. And essentially that leaves us flat.

COLLINS: I think we're -- yes, we're just right around the corner from 15,000, don't you think?

HARRIS: Man, that is a wide corner -- 13,115, on the road to 15,000.

COLLINS: It's not even Thanksgiving yet. We've got some time.

HARRIS: By Christmas. We do have time.

All right. So we are checking the markets. Did I mention the Nasdaq down 7 right now. But, OK, we're inside the first hour of the trading day and anything can happen. But I'm telling you, keep an eye out in the last half hour of the trading day. That's where the real action is. Susan Lisovicz joining us shortly in the CNN NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: The gloves come off. The opponents take aim. The front-runner battles back. Fight night in Vegas. The Democrats face off in a CNN debate. The highlights now from senior political correspondent Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): No laid back, above the fray frontrunner stuff this time.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am happy to be here tonight and this pants suit is asbestos tonight.

CROWLEY: This time she wasn't going to get burned. CLINTON: I don't mind taking hits on my record, on issues. But when somebody starts throwing mud, at least we can hope that it's both accurate and not right out of the Republican playbook.

CROWLEY: If he did not back off, John Edwards at least felt the need to explain.

JOHN EDWARDS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do believe, however, that the voters need to know that we have choices. There's nothing personal about this.

CROWLEY: They pretty much began where they left off, the bickertons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. One at a time.

CROWLEY: But then there was a slap-down.

SEN. JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let's get to it, folks. The American people don't give a darn about any of this stuff that's going on up here.

CROWLEY: And the noticeably pro-Clinton audience was prone to hiss at some of the tough stuff.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And, you know, this is the kind of thing that I would expect from Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani where we start playing with numbers -- we start playing with numbers in order to try to make a point.

EDWARDS: Senator Clinton defends the system, takes money from lobbyists, does all those things. And my point is simply that people have -- no, wait a minute.

CROWLEY: So, for the most part, things settled down. They discussed energy, Iran, trade agreements, and whether sometimes, as it seems in Pakistan, U.S. national security trumps human rights concerns.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We forgot our principles. Our principles that we said, Musharraf. You know, Musharraf, security is more important than human rights. If I'm president, it's the other way around.

CROWLEY: Big issues were mostly discussed without major disagreement. Exception, Dennis Kucinich who took everybody to task for switching positions on the war, the Patriot Act, and trade with China.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just imagine what it will be like to have a president of the United States who's right the first time.

CROWLEY: As the frontrunner, Clinton got most of the attention, whether from her critics or the audience?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you prefer diamonds or pearls?

CROWLEY: For the record, Hillary Clinton prefers both.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Las Vegas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Fight night in Vegas. So, who won? Who political oddsmakers weigh in on the Democratic debate just ahead right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Want the most up to the minute political news anywhere available? Cnnpolitics.com is your one-stop shop. Get behind-the-scenes details from CNN's best political team on television and see why it's the Internet's premiere destination for political news. That's cnnpolitics.com.

HARRIS: Well, here is some of the most popular videos at cnn.com this hour.

Members of a Russian doomsday cult barricaded themselves in a cave to wait out the end of the world. They waited yesterday as the cult's leader underwent psychiatric exams. The true Russian orthodox church believes the end of the world is coming in May.

U.S. health officials say a mutated version of a common cold virus has killed 10 people in the last 18 months. At least 140 people have fallen ill from the virus in New York, Oregon, Washington, and Texas.

And a killer cyclone barrels into Bangladesh. Hundreds are dead, thousands are homeless, and the death toll is expected to rise.

Big sales for Sony's PlayStation 3 as the holiday season begin. U.S. sales for the video game more than doubled after a $100 price cut. Sales for competitor game, I guess that's xBox. Yes, the xBox, have lagged so far. When you're not watching CNN NEWSROOM on television, go to cnn.com. And when you get there, be sure to download the daily newsroom podcast.

COLLINS: Steroids in sports. How big of a problem is it? An investigative reporter with "Sports Illustrated" who spent the past year looking into it, he's coming up next right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Ho, ho, holdup? A Santa bandit terrorizes southern California. The story, coming up on the NEWSROOM.

ANNOUNCER: Live in the CNN NEWSROOM, Heidi Collins and Tony Harris.

COLLINS: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Heidi Collins.

HARRIS: And I'm Tony Harris. I've got to tell you, no joy, no joy at all to talk about in mudville right now, but plenty of jeers. There is new tarnish on the crown of baseball's new home run king. Barry Bonds faces a federal indictment accused of lying in a government investigation into steroid abuse. Bonds repeatedly denied he knowingly took banned substances during his testimony. If convicted he could face 30 years in prison.

Steroid rumors have long chased Bonds, who has added dozens of pounds of muscles over the last decade. He has been despised by fans and even some teammates. Maybe his family still loves him. Boy. Bonds' attorney says his unpopularity made him an easy target for the feds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL RAINS, ATTY. FOR BONDS: All you need to know about the government's case is that it leaked an official indictment to every media outlet in the nation, and withheld it from Barry, his lawyer, and everyone else who could read it and who could defend him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And our next guest has spent years following the link between steroids and sports. Luis Fernando Llosa is a senior investigator for "Sports Illustrated" and SI.com, and he's joining us now to talk a little bit more about this.

I just want to ask you off the top, Luis, were you surprised?

LUIS FERNANDO LLOSA, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" SR. INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, I think we all knew this was coming at some point. They'd been working on this since earlier this year. I think in April we had an inkling that there would be a possible perjury charges, so not really. Surprised me that it happened just yesterday, but not surprised in general.

COLLINS: What's the overall reaction to this, do you think? I mean, I assume you hear from your readers and folks online and so forth. What is everybody thinking?

LLOSA: Well, I mean, most of America has seen Bonds under this cloud of suspicion, but I guess if there are any people who still doubted that he was involved, they have to take another hard look at this because, you know, if he is proven guilty of lying about it, and it looks -- that seems to be where we're headed, then it's time to reassess for the few people who hold out believing that he was clean when he broke the largest steroid record and the most important steroid record in history.

COLLINS: You mean the baseball record in history.

LLOSA: The home run record, correct.

COLLINS: Exactly. But when...

LLOSA: The most hallowed. COLLINS: No question about that -- Hank Aaron. But when we're talking about McGwire or Palmero, or some of the other folks who have admitted to some of this usage, is Barry Bonds being treated differently?

LLOSA: I don't think so. Firstly, McGwire has not admitted to anything. Palmero was caught by a test, but he did finger wag a year earlier in front of Congress. Shane Moseley recently said that he unwittingly took the steroids. Marion Jones finally admitted to it about a month ago. So there aren't that many people who have come forward. Jason Giambi kind of admitted it. And so -- and there are so many athletes who have been in this steroid maelstrom, that I think to single out Bonds as somebody who has been a scapegoat is a bit misguided.

COLLINS: Forgive me. I did mean Giambi, I did not mean McGwire in all of that. But obviously there have been a lot of names thrown around when we talk about these steroids.

LLOSA: Right.

COLLINS: If in fact he is found guilty, is this going to affect that home run record?

LLOSA: Well, when you look at Marion Jones and the Olympic -- her Olympic accomplishments, after she was hit with the perjury charge and admitting to taking steroids, she gave her medals back. So the question is, is baseball held to the same standard, and will that happen? You know, it's a big question for baseball. How do they adjust and accept, if this is the case, the fact that their biggest -- the most important record was achieved through enhancement.

COLLINS: Yes, exactly. This is America's sport, right? All right. Well, we appreciate your time here today very much.

LLOSA: Well, you're welcome.

COLLINS: Luis Fernando Llosa from SI.com and "Sports Illustrated," thank you.

LLOSA: Thank you.

(WEATHER REPORT)

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HARRIS: Air disaster, boy, on the ground in France. Look at these pictures here. Injuries and damage. An update in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Collision course, 25,000 feet over Indiana. A Midwest Airlines plane traveling from Milwaukee and a United Express jet out of Greensboro, North Carolina, the FAA says the planes were seconds from hitting each other Tuesday night. A cockpit safety device alerted pilots to make emergency moves. The FAA says an air-traffic controller in the middle of a shift change forgot the two planes were in the same area.

Putting on the brakes a little bit too late. Air accident on the ground. This is the airport in Toulouse, France. An Airbus passenger jet being tested before delivery to the United Arab Emirates national air carrier. It slammed into a wall last night, injuring nine people on the plane and one on the ground. Injuries considered serious for three of them. No word yet on what caused the accident.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

HARRIS: Fight night in Vegas. So who won? Two political oddsmakers weigh in on the Democratic debate. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: She says she was wearing her asbestos pant suit, and Senator Hillary Clinton did come under fire in the latest CNN Democratic debate. Here's just a bit of the Sin City showdown in Las Vegas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What the American people are looking for right now is straight answers to tough questions, and that is not what we've seen out of Senator Clinton on a host of issues.

JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Clinton says she will end the war. She also says she will continue to keep combat troops in Iraq and continue combat missions in Iraq. She says she will turn up the heat on George Bush and the Republicans. But when the crucial vote came on stopping Bush, Cheney, and the neocons on Iran, she voted with Bush and Cheney.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm not playing, as some people say, the gender card here in Las Vegas; I'm just trying to play the winning card. And I understand very well that people are not attacking me because I'm a woman; they're attacking me because I'm ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Let's bring in a pair of political oddsmakers now. Cheri Jacobus is a Republican strategist, with 20 years of political experience. She's joining us today from Washington. Hi there, Shari.

CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good morning.

COLLINS: And Jamal Simmons a Democratic strategist and president of New Future Communications. He is in Las Vegas.

Jamal, hi to you, too.

JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good morning. COLLINS: Guys, I just want to start with this -- how do you think it went, the format and the reaction, which I thought was very interesting, from the crowd. I mean, they were really vocal, were they not were they not, Cheri?

JACOBUS: Yes, they were pretty vocal. We might be misreading it, though, as an audience watching on television than if you were there. You don't know if they were sort of booing just Republican names being brought up or booing Barack Obama.

But my impression of last night and the reaction afterwards is that people are giving the former first lady an awful lot of credit, saying she did better. I think we're grading on a curve. I thought in fact she came off as very defensive. Her opening comment, obviously planned, that she was wearing an bass asbestos pantsuit, besides from being a little bit creepy, just basically shows that she does not want to engage, and resents being forced now to engage, rather than just killing time until her nominating convention next summer.

COLLINS: OK, equal time -- Jamal, what did you think?

SIMMONS: Well I think last night was a good night for Democrats. What we had were a bunch of candidates on stage, each of whom could be president of the United States. Some did better than others at different points.

I think senator Clinton had a very good night. She was strong. She held her opponents off of her. I also think Barack Obama had a good night, and for a really specific reason. I think people have been looking to see strength and consistency out of him, and one of the things that happened last night is he stood on the stage, he finally looked like he was a commanding presence and he belonged there. He controlled the conversation, the pace of the debate when it came time for his questions, and that was important.

The tough thing for John Edwards was the audience really didn't want to have the kind of fireworks I think the press corps was looking to have. We were down in that filing room; everyone was ready for this boxing match to really take off, and I think the people in the room really shut that down.

COLLINS: The press, fireworks? We don't like fireworks. We just like everything very calm and even keel.

Hey, you know, I do want to ask you about a pretty interesting question, at least in my mind. They were talking a little bit about Pakistan and the situation there, and wondering in specific which was more important, national security or human rights. Let's listen for just a moment to some of the responses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What happened with our Pakistan policy, we got our principles done. We forgot our principles. Our principles that we said Musharraf, you know, Musharraf, security is more important than human rights. If I'm president, it's the other way around -- democracy and human rights.

CLINTON: When I was meeting with him earlier this year, I asked him if he would accept a high-level presidential envoy to begin to negotiate some of these issues. He said yes. I got back. I called the White House. I asked them to send such a high-level envoy. They did not do it. They're going to send one now. So, I mean, you've got to stay on top of this, and you have to manage it all the time. That requires presidential attention. We haven't had that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: OK. Basically what was said there was that at least from these two candidates that absolutely first and foremost national security is more important. So the other candidates were talking more about concerns on human rights.

Shari, what did you make of all that?

JACOBUS: You know, I think that former first lady in particular wants to show that she has the potential to be commander in chief, so she's coming out trying to sound a little more, I think, like a Republican, and that's the crowd that I think she was appealing to, moving to the center. I think Americans, obviously, would think that security is most important.

But it's interesting to see how she's trying to position herself for the general election, but still has to get through this primary. So it was sort of an interesting tap dance last night overall.

COLLINS: Tap dance, Jamal?

SIMMONS: Well, see, here's where Shari is wrong. National security isn't just an issue for Republicans. Democrats have been fighting for national security ever since -- well, really throughout time, but especially since 2001.

The difference is, we want to go after the opponents who actually attacked us, like al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, and the Republicans want to go after whoever the next easiest target is for them to rally people around. So that's really the difference. I think Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, all these candidates, Joe Biden in particular, nobody has been stronger and better on this than Joe Biden in each one of these debates.

JACOBUS: Biden didn't get a lot of time last night.

COLLINS: Well, in fact let me go straight to this because you have brought me to it so easily.

SIMMONS: That's not true.

COLLINS: Let's go straight to this from Joe Biden. Listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Biden... SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, no, no.

BLITZER: I want you to weigh in.

BIDEN: No. Don't make me speak!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now for those of you who may -- obviously not you two, but for people who may not have seen that particular exchange, in all fairness it did take some time to get to the other candidates. Joe Biden, I think, 15 to 20 minutes before we heard from him. Does anybody else have a chance at getting this nomination? Is that what we're to think? Or is it going to be either Hillary or Obama? What are the thoughts?

JACOBUS: The air of inevitability around Hillary Clinton has been there for quite some time. And last night she might not have been on completely sure footing, because as I said, for the first time, she may actually feel that she has to fight for this nomination. But Joe Biden has an awful lot of experience, but if you start telling people they can't be a part of the debate based on experience, then you can't have Barack Obama there.

So unfortunately, it's a large field, and you have to have Dennis Kucinich up there, who, let's face it, doesn't belong there.

But Senator Biden is well respected in Washington. He has a great deal of experience. So it is a little bit awkward that he has to stand back and act as if he's holding Mrs. Clinton's purse or something throughout the debate.

COLLINS: Jamal? How can you deny?

SIMMONS: Look, Joe Biden got as much time last night as John Edwards according to one of the reports I saw this morning.

COLLINS: Ultimately, yes, but certainly not in the beginning.

SIMMONS: Right. Certainly not in the beginning. Look, the big show, everybody was waiting for the big show, and the big show was whether or not Barack Obama and John Edwards were going to engage Senator Clinton, and that's what they did. And I think she engaged and she pushed them off of her a little bit, and then the crowd interjected and said enough is enough, talk about the issues. So Democrats had a good night, everybody made their point.

JACOBUS: John Edwards was basically making the point to the former first lady, look, these are not personal attacks; these are about issues. Why do you have a problem with that? And he made a very good point.

COLLINS: Yes, sorry guys. We're running out of time. Quick one word answer, one second each -- give me a last name of who is going to get the nomination. Jamal? Come on?

SIMMONS: A Democrat.

COLLINS: A Democrat.

SIMMONS: A good Democrat.

COLLINS: Shari?

JACOBUS: We're grading on a curve. Hillary Clinton doesn't have to do that well. I think they're going to give it to her, literally give it to her.

COLLINS: Neither one of you followed the directions, by the way. All right, guys. Thanks so much for your time. Cheri Jacobus and Jamal Simmons, appreciate it.

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HARRIS: In baseball lore, the Mighty Casey struck out. In real life home run king Barry Bonds faces a full count and a federal indictment. The windup, the pitch, in the NEWSROOM.

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