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Out in the Open
Mortgage Fraud; Hate Crimes March; Barry Bonds Case; Democrats Debate
Aired November 16, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SHARON ORMSBY, FBI: In fiscal year 2003, we had approximately 436 pending mortgage fraud cases in the bureau and as of fiscal year 2007 we had approximately 1210.
REPORTER: Twenty-eight percent of the bureau's agents investigating fraud are now focused solely on mortgage fraud, that number has quadrupled in four years. Fueling the surge, high mortgage brokers pressing for faster reviews of mortgages, more non-traditional mortgage products all on the gamble that prices wouldn't fall and guess what?
ROBERT KUTTNER, "THE SQUANDERING OF AMERICA": Regulators were asleep at the switch because of this ideology of deregulation that you didn't need to protect consumers because markets could regulate themselves and look at all the different kinds of people who are getting hurt. Because obviously this market did not regulate itself.
REPORTER: the FBI calls it a low-risk, high-yield crime.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN, CORRESPONDENT: Little wonder why it is so tempting. Lou, the FBI agents involved in the case now are warning people, desperate homeowners who are looking at foreclosure, to be aware of closure scams.
LOU DOBBS, CNN, HOST: These people come in and promise...throughout the last several weeks the number of - I mean, outrageous illegality in some of those fees by major institutions in point of fact, but what we're talking about here - I don't know, the FBI's got some problems here, the mortgage industry and the housing industry does, but my god, the institutions are sitting there putting out no-doc loans. They're encouraging fraud and it's predatory fraud, I suppose, you could call it as well as predatory lending. No-income verification, no job or employment - I mean, what in the world are they offering loans to illegal aliens in this country. What in the world do they expect to be the result with no money down.
TUCKER: Well, the money was coming in, Lou. Everybody was making money and they looked the other way.
DOBBS: And, of course, I hope, I trust that the FBI and the Justice Department will not be focusing primarily on the people who were involved in the - in buying a home and simply following no documentation, no-income verification. There are literally at the whim of those agents and those mortgage companies and lenders. Incredible. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker. Terrific story. A sad story. It really, a sad story about the state of the country. Thank you.
The result of our poll tonight, 95% of you have concluded you would vote for an independent populist for president of the United States. You are my kind of people. And, you know, populist, imagine that, wanting the people to run this country. Really radical, huh? Thank you for your vote. Time now for a few more of your thoughts.
John in New York wrote in to say "Lou, to you and many of your viewers I'd like to say, 'welcome aboard.' When I became registered to vote in 1968 I registered as an independent. It's been lonely." We're proud and pleased to be bringing you a little company and we hope to bring you a lot more. Jim in North Carolina says, "Lou, please, please run for president. You're the only one I could trust especially after the dems debate last night. There was enough hot air to fill a balloon to go around the world."
I simply, simply cannot resist talking about exploratory committees, but I won't tonight and all of the executives at CNN are so concerned. It's scary. I'm not running for president. Each of you who e-mails us receives a copy of my new book. "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Thanks for being with us tonight. Have a great weekend. For all of us here, we thank you for watching and a special thank you to the Breakers Hotel and Resort. Tonight, good night to you from Palm Beach. "Out in the open" with Rick Sanchez begins right now.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN, ANCHOR: All right, Lou. Thanks so much. Have a good trip back. We'll welcome you back when you get back next week.
Hi, everybody. You know, there's been a massive march on Washington today and we're going to be taking you there in just a little bit, but first, this is - this is what may be the biggest scandal in America's past time since 'say it ain't so, Joe.' Is he the best home run hitter ever, better than Hank Aaron? Is he better than Babe Ruth? Or is he a cheater -- a cheater and a liar?
But here's really a more important question for all of us. While most of us are indignantly pointing our collective fingers accusing Barry Bonds of such things, shouldn't we be asking about baseball and whether it's to blame and how much are we are all to blame, like what? We didn't know that this was happening? Maybe opening our eyes may have helped just a little bit, just a little bit. Here's what I mean. Let me go over and show you some things because I think it's pretty clear when you look at the numbers and when you look at some of the different physiques, for example.
Barry Bonds, right? From 1988 to 1999. Every 16 times he went to bat he got one home run. One. All of a sudden Barry Bonds from 2000 to 2005, every time he went nine times to bat he got one home run. 16, 9, think about the difference there. How suddenly things were revolutionizing. Look at Mr. Sosa. This is Mr. Sosa as he broke into the league. This is Sammy Sosa, the big home run king race with Mark McGwire as he just suddenly dramatically changed, but no, we didn't notice that. Now, look at Mark McGwire. That's him when he was breaking into the league. Look how different he looks afterward. Look at the head, look at the neck and look at the shoulders. These things were something that we all should have recognized. And Barry Bonds, three inches taller now they say? Different helmet size? These were things that were happening and tonight Barry Bonds is accused of lying to a grand jury when he testified that he never took steroids. Let's go right to Ted Rowlands. He's been following the story for us. You know what's interesting to us, Ted, what this seems to also say is, he did take steroids and he lied about it but it's the first part that's very different because we've never heard such a definitive statement from folks over there at the D.A.'s office, right?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN, CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's the second part that prosecutors are concerned about. They don't care if he did steroids or not. They care that he lied, allegedly lied in front of a grand jury back in 2003. He came in with other players during the Balco investigation. The feds said listen, it's pretty simple, you're immune, tell us the truth, everything's fine. You lie to us we'll come after you. Same thing we've done in other cases, time and time again. They don't like it when you lie to them. They feel that they he lied. In their indictment, they say they have evidence that he did do steroids and that he lied and that is why they're going after him.
SANCHEZ: You know what I find interesting about this and as I look at this though, is the possibility that he could be doing some serious time as a result of this, right? Because this is a federal case, correct?
ROWLANDS: Yes. If you add up all of the charges, if he's found guilty of all of the charges, he could potentially could do a number of years, 30 years, but the reality is he's looking probably at three to five if he's found guilty on all of these counts and that's a huge if because they're trying to prove perjury and the one person that they could prove it with, Greg Anderson, his trainer, is not cooperating. And according to his attorney Mark Geragos, he will not cooperate. I talked to Victor Conte today. He will not cooperate. He said that emphatically and claims he doesn't know anything anyway. It's going to be a tough road for the federal government. They must have something though, otherwise they wouldn't have indicted Bonds, one would think. We'll find out as this case progresses.
SANCHEZ: Indeed, unbelievable story. Ted Rowlands, thanks so much for bringing us up to date. Let's do this now. Let's go to Lance Williams. He's an investigative reporter for the "San Francisco Chronicle" and he's also the co-author of "Game of Shadows," Barry Bonds, Balco and steroids scandal that rocked professional sports. He's good enough to join us. Mr. Williams, let me start with this. I mean, because everyone will be using their finger and accusing Barry Bonds of many things, but isn't this really more about something that's been coming for a long time that did involve major league baseball, that did involve a strike that made some fans leave, that did involve Barry Bonds saying, hey, what the hey? If everybody else is doing it, maybe I should do it, too?
LANCE WILLIAMS, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE: Well, that's the dynamic for the whole steroid era in baseball. The game did turn a blind eye to drug use on the part of player. There are no rules against it. Then, you know, the drugs made many of them better hitters, the long ball excited fans and brought them back to the game. So that's the underlying dynamic for sure.
SANCHEZ: Do you think and, boy, I'll tell you, nobody has chronicled this like you, do you think that Barry Bonds is just going to be the tip of the iceberg? He happens to be the guy who hit the most home runs, but he's far from the only player who's been juiced over the last ten years or so, right?
WILLIAMS: Yes, you know, recently at the Chronicle we began covering some of the online pharmacies caught up in that New York state investigation of dealing growth hormone over the internet, and, you know, that convinced me the problem is worse than I thought. The names that they were ticking out are ordinary players you'd never associate with drug use by their physique and drug records. I think this Mitchell report, Senator Mitchell's report when it comes out, if it's done well, it will have a lot of names that will surprise a lot of people.
SANCHEZ: Why wouldn't a player use steroids if it could mean the difference between $100,000 contract in AA or a $5 million contract, living in the big city, and flying on big jets and having a really big home.
WILLIAMS: Well, because he doesn't want to drop dead of a heart attack at 40 or he doesn't like his hair falling out and his back being covered with zits, I suppose.
SANCHEZ: But maybe the question I should be asking you in this way is this, shouldn't major league baseball have made this decision and not put it on the players to have to decide? Isn't the problem here about greed when it comes to major league baseball and all of us as fans putting our butts on those seats and being real happy to cheer for all these home runs?
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, to be fair to the commissioner, he's hemmed in in various directions throughout the '90s. The players have a very tough union that until really recently was just completely opposed to any kind of drug testing even though it would really have benefited their players and protected their health. So there's responsibility that can be doled out all around.
SANCHEZ: We're going to be watching this and I know you are, too. Good stuff. Good reporting. Lance Williams with the San Francisco paper there.
Coming up, illegal immigration makes a grade at the democratic debate. Hillary Clinton takes a stand. Barack Obama, not so sure. The ums, the oops, the winners and the losers on the immigration debate. We are back. Show them, Jeff.
JEFF In exactly 60 seconds. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Well, tonight the buzz is still going on over last night's CNN democratic presidential debate, the most watched debate ever, we should add. And who better to discuss this with than two down home country boys made famous by our youtube debate. With us tonight, two conservative republican characters Jackie Boils and Dunlop. Look at you, guys.
Hey, look at you, Sanchez.
Look at you.
SANCHEZ: All right. I'm ready to go. The first thing I want to do with you now is I want to show you something. This is a discussion about whether securing the United States is the most important thing that we should do. This is Bill Richardson. Now, I want you guys to get real serious and put your thinking caps on, here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN, ANCHOR: What you're saying, governor, is that human rights, at times, are more important than American national security?
GOV. BILL RICHARSON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. Because I believe we, we need to find ways to say to the world that, you know, it's not just about what Halliburton wants in Iraq. It's also about our values of freedom, equality. Our strength is not just military and economic. Our strength as a nation is our values, equality, freedom, democracy, human rights.
BLITZER: All right. Senator on --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Jackie Broyles and Dunlop.
What that man said is not the politically correct thing to say. That's not the popular answer. What do you guys think?
DUNLOP: I think Bill Richardson needs a fence built around his mouth to keep him from saying something stupid.
JACKIE BROYLES, RED STATE UPDATE: And Burger King, too.
DUNLOP: Yes, keep him from eating Burger King, too. It's funny, I like watching that video because when Wolf Blitzer calls him on that, he's, like, are you saying that human rights are more important than national security. His eyes start darting and he starts sweating.
BROYLES: It's almost like he's asking ...
DUNLOP: Halliburton, Halliburton, Halliburton, that's all he knows what to say.
SANCHEZ: It's almost like he's asking himself, wait a minute, did, did, did I just say that?
DUNLOP: Yes, and then he goes with it.
SANCHEZ: But let me ask, let me ask you a question. Don't you have to admire every once in a while when a politician says something that he's not supposed to say? I'm not saying that he defended it very well, but what he was trying to say is if we don't go into these countries and use common sense rather than turning most of the Arab countries, for example, into our own private gas stations, of course, we're going have security issues in the future. So we've got to think before we have to use defense. That's what he was trying to say. No?
DUNLOP: You know, I like just watching democrats get caught saying stupid things. It doesn't matter what he's trying to say. It just matters what he says then he goes, Halliburton, Halliburton and that's the democratic defense. You just go Halliburton, Halliburton, no blood for all.
BROYLES: I would agree with old Bill Richardson that human rights is an important issue.
DUNLOP: Really?
BROYLES: Yes. For example, I, as a human have a right not to have a plane flown into my damn house.
DUNLOP: That's true. I have a right to go to a mall and not have a terrorist in a hoodie leave a back pack that's going to blow up. I went into the Tancredo's web site earlier.
BROYLES: Well, hell don't go there.
Scare the hell out of you Tancredo will.
SANCHEZ: You like Tancredo, do you?
BROYLES: Well, he's scary.
DUNLOP: He's scarier than the salt franchise. I'll tell you that.
SANCHEZ: I think there was another sound bite we wanted to play for you now and this one is also a response that we had. I think this was Dennis Kucinich, is it not? I'm sorry. No, no, no. My mistake.
Let's talk about Senator ... wait, wait.
BROYLES: Good. Oh, good.
SANCHEZ: Let's talk about Senator Clinton because by the way...
DUNLOP: Oh, that's worse.
SANCHEZ: You talk about politically correct, guys. She comes right on afterward and she says no, no, it's national security, but at the beginning of this she was talking about some kind of asbestos joke that frankly, I didn't get. Let's see if you guys can pick it up right away because you're smarter than I am.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am happy to be here tonight and this pant suit is asbestos tonight.
SANCHEZ: What? Did you get that when she first said it.
BROYLES: Hillary Clinton don't need to be telling jokes.
DUNLOP: Or talking.
BROYLES: Or running for office.
DUNLOP: Now, in her defense though, I would tell you this - that asbestos pant suit was prescribed to her by her physician after Bill got his last results from the clinic. It's just a necessity now to keep stuff from getting in or out or bursting into flames. She can't help it.
SANCHEZ: I'll try next time to keep it serious. But you know what, I think I'll just give up with you guys. You guys are great. I really enjoyed talking to you. Hey, let's go fishing one day or something, huh?
DUNLOP: Hey, we'll go fishing any time you want. We got a boat with your name on it.
We'll submerge it and you can try to get out.
BROYLES: Yes, that would be fun. I would like to watch it.
DUNLOP: We'll taser each other. Whatever you want to do.
SANCHEZ: Don't taser me! Fabulous guys. Jackie Broyles and Dunlop. Really appreciate it. Good conversation.
Don't forget, the republicans have their turn on November 28th for the CNN youtube debate. Go to cnn.com/republicandebate if you want to submit a question for us.
Here's what we got coming up. John McCain and the "b" word controversy goes viral video. Just as we said that it would, he's now getting heat from lawmakers and the woman who made the comment goes after Hillary again. This while McCain backers go after me. Tonight, I answer them. Stay with for that.
Also, there's now a Jena 6 controversy. Why is it that some of the money that was donated is not being accounted for for the legal defense fund? This is serious and we're going to treat it as such. Stay with us. Coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANHEZ: Here we go, welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Thousands march on Washington. They say that American justice is not just enough. Are they right?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): The Jena 6. Jen Marlowe, nooses, hate, out in the open. Is America going backward in the fight for civil rights?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The message there, you know, I want people to get is that it's injustice.
We're live in our nation's capital.
The woman whose question threw a wrench into the McCain comeback says Hillary is diabolical while the McCain camp continues to blame this guy. Tonight, my take.
Back now to the Jena 6. Good cause, it seems, but is some of the money missing from the legal defense fund? What is going on? We're looking for answers to bring out in the open.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And welcome back, everyone. I'm Rick Sanchez. Tonight, two items on the John McCain controversy. First, his reaction. Republican Senator Jim Demint of South Carolina who is a big player in Mitt Romney's campaign for president is telling the "New York Post," "I think it's a huge mistake for us to show that kind of disrespect for any candidate," talking about McCain's reaction. Republican Senator Elizabeth Dole of North Carolina who hasn't endorsed any presidential candidate yet tells the "Post," "I think I'd say next question if faced with that situation." There's also more tape, by the way, of the woman who called Senator Hillary Clinton the "b" word. She's not backing down. In fact, this is what ran on "Inside Edition."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said how are we going to beat the [ bleep ]. And that's the way I feel about her. I don't trust her. I think she is diabolic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Diabolic. Well, we want you to know that we reached out to her. While she's unwilling to go on camera, she did confirm by telephone much of the same that she told "Inside Edition" to us. Let me answer now, the thousands and thousands of e-mails that I've received from people who have written me about this story. We were right. Now, there's no question that this thing has really taken on a life of its own. The video of the incident has been watched almost by a million people on youtube and articles have been written about it from New York to Australia. The McCain camp continues to blame me for their predicament. Is using the controversy to ask for campaign donations and is encouraging many of you to tell me how you feel and boy, have you ever. Listen, I admire your loyalty to your candidate. While it's not nice to hear some of the horrible things that many of you have called me, you're right about one thing. John McCain is a good candidate, a courageous patriot and he could probably make an excellent president. But let's supposed now that because of that I had done what many of you suggest, and I just ignored the story. A woman calls Hillary Clinton the "b" word and then he laughs and then he calls it an excellent question. Look, folks, make no mistake. That's what he did. If you want, here it is again. Look at it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do we beat the [ expletive ].
JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Can I give the translation? In a (laughter)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought she's talking about my ex-wife.
MCCAIN: Can I, but that's an excellent question. You might know that there was a poll yesterday, a Rasmussen poll that chose to me three points ahead of Senator Clinton in a head-to-head matchup. I respect Senator Clinton and I respect anyone with the nomination of the democratic party.
SANCHEZ: Let's suppose now that I had ignored that story as many of you suggested, that I should have and now let's suppose that the very next day a democratic candidate reacts the same way when someone uses that word to describe, let's say, Laura Bush or calls Elizabeth Dole the "b" word or any other prominent republican woman and suppose the democratic candidate also laughed and called it an excellent question after hearing such commentary. What would you think of me if I ignored that story? If I failed to ask if this could possibly derail their candidacy? I think I know the answer, and I think you do, too.
With me now is psychologist Deborah Condren who interviewed 500 woman, or 500 women, I should say. Pardon me, I misspoke. The book is called "Ambitchous." It's about women and ambition. And she also wrote a piece this week about "b-bomb," at the liberal leaning web site (huftingtonpost).
Let's start with the question that I had just posed. Would you have been as indignant by the way if this had been a democrat who heard this comment and had responded to the way John McCain did.
DEBRA CONDREN, AUTHOR "AMBITCHOUS": Absolutely, Rick. This is a missed leadership opportunity on the part of Senator McCain and a lot of people have commented and said well, there was no way he could have responded to his booster without offending her, and I disagree with that. I think he could have, for example, smiled, even chuckled a little bit and said I appreciate the question and I appreciate the sentiments underlying the question. I wouldn't, however, use that word out of respect for Senator Clinton and out of respect for women everywhere, but, let's discuss how I'm going to take on and confront my opponent and that.
SANCHEZ: But you're, I take it... Hey, Deborah, I take it. Are you a democrat?
CONDREN: I'm a democrat. Yes, I am.
SANCHEZ: So you go into this kind of not liking McCain as much as perhaps you might like some other people. You probably like Hillary more than him, right? As a candidate?
CONDREN: I would not like this type of response regardless of my political affiliation and I think that's what we've seen with the letters that have come in certainly.
SANCHEZ: I agree with you. In fact, let's put up something because this is something that you had written, and I did find the same thing. I told you I've got about, who knows how many, at least 3,000 that I know of that have written to me, and I've seen this theme. You write "unease and ambivalence about Clinton as a powerful leader ripples through the viewer feedback, but I paused when I got to 'Hells' Kitchen Guy.' who writes, 'so what if she's a "b" word? Is the president supposed to be a doormat. Margaret Thatcher was a b- word, and Golda Meir was a "b" word. Indira Gandhi was a "b" word. Strong women are "b" words.'
There's something about this word that makes some people think that it's passable More so, than for example, the "s" word referring to Hispanics or the "n" word referring to African-Americans, is that right?
CONDREN: I don't think people approve of the use of this word and I think it is every bit as egregious as if we had heard someone using, for example, a racial slur. Ambitious women, the premise of my book is that society does regard ambitious women as the "b" word all too often and we as women internalize that that and we walk a fine line. We're afraid that if we go back in our history --
SANCHEZ: But you know what's interesting? There are very few words that are vile, horrible words that you can use, as for example, an adjective. I can say the word bitchy on TV, but I'm uncomfortable saying the word as a noun. Why is that?
CONDREN: Because it is a derogatory term. It actually refers to a female dog, so essentially the woman was referring to Senator Clinton as a female dog rather than as an accomplished woman. Whatever we think about her, her politics, and I think, again, it shows a lack of respect for Senator Clinton. It also --
SANCHEZ: By the way, before I let you go. There's something else I have to ask you. I don't think that John McCain ascribes to what that woman said. I don't think he's a bigot. I don't think he's that kind of guy. I just don't think that about him. Do you?
CONDREN: I don't. And you know, I have been visiting my father who is here in Little Rock where I'm filming, ironically enough, with my college-aged son and my father who has been a very successful business person was speaking with my son about the importance of ethics and integrity and treating people with respect, and I think when we all saw this clip, this was an example of just the opposite and I think --
SANCHEZ: So he made a mistake.
CONDREN: I think it was a missed opportunity and I think he should, he can correct himself now and say, you know what? I should have said I would not choose to use that word.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
CONDREN: Out of respect for Senator Clinton and out of respect for women everywhere.
SANCHEZ: And I bet you deep down he probably wishes he had also, but he's in a political situation and he probably can't. I don't think he's a bad guy.
CONDREN: Maybe he will step up and maybe he will step up and quickly take a leadership stand and move on to the substantive issues.
SANCHEZ: We'll be here to cover it and if he wants to do it on this show, he's welcome to do it. Deborah Condren, thank you so much. We certainly appreciate it.
CONDREN: Thank you. Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Are we sliding backwards on civil rights? Thousands are saying absolutely. We got the latest from today's march on Washington. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And I welcome you back. Did you watch the debates last night? Boy, immigration is a frightening topic for some of these candidates. They seem to pucker when it's even raised because votes on both sides are hinging on every word that comes out of their mouths.
So last night when it came to the CNN debate, everyone seemed to suddenly move forward when they were asked questions about immigration. People on both sides, what are they going to say? I know my next guest did.
Joining me now on the phone is Bill Gheen. He's with Americans for Legal Immigration Political Action Committee, a conservative group. And you probably -- well, we can't get him here today. He's been here with us many times in the past. We could say he's a friend of the show.
First, oh, by the way, Bill, I have to tell you something. First of all, something on a very complicated subject that you and I discussed last time about fast tracking soldiers. You asked me if the soldiers that we were talking about or the soldier that we were talking about at that particular moment was an illegal alien. I answered yes. I was wrong. I misspoke. He was a legal resident who happened to have a green card at the time. So, you were right. I was wrong, OK?
ON THE PHONE WILLIAM GHEEN, OPPOSES ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION: I appreciate that, Rick, because being a legal immigrant, I would have loved to have shaken his hand at the citizenship ceremony. My organization has thousands of legal immigrants that are very upset about illegal immigration, and we want to make sure that we try not to confuse the two.
SANCHEZ: Hey, let me ask you about the debates last night, and I appreciate that. You know, you and I always have these open and honest debates about these things and we can call each other on whatever we want, and I appreciate being able to have you clear that up for us.
But did you watch the debate last night, and were you taken by that moment when Hillary Clinton came out and said, you know what? I don't want driver's licenses in the state of New York and were you surprised?
GHEEN: Well, let me tell you, John McCain will never be president of the United States because -- and it's been acknowledged by consultants across the nation.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GHEEN: Because of his support for a comprehensive immigration reform which was seen as amnesty. He fell from the first place spot in GOP primary. He's fourth or fifth, and then he had to start laying off staff because he can't raise any money.
We expect to see a very similar plummet in Clinton's numbers because one, she angered the pro-enforcement Americans, 77 percent that do not want illegal aliens having licenses, by saying she supported the idea.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GHEEN: And then now, she's angered the 15 percent that do support licenses for illegals by saying she's against the idea, while at the same time showing the entire country that she'll flip-flop and say whatever is politically correct.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but, you know what, she went to bat for you because according to reports coming out of New York, she went to the governor of New York, Spitzer, and talked him out of his plan.
GHEEN: Because she knew it was going to hurt her chances of becoming president. That's why she did it. I mean, she told everybody that she supports the idea.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GHEEN: And now she's backing away from it because when you take the wrong side of an issue with 77 or 80 percent of America's voters, that's a campaign killer. So we expect the next series of numbers released on Hillary to show what we call the McCain plunge.
SANCHEZ: Would you -- but do you respect her more, and I'm asking you the question because of this. Because last night when Barack Obama was asked the same thing, he seemed to be waffling all over the place.
Would you respect him more if he just came out and said, look I disagree with the Gheens and those folks. I think these guys should have a right to drive because it's a safety issue or whatever reason they give it.
GHEEN: The Democrats don't want to talk about this issue because they lose big on controlling illegal immigration. And I'll tell you honestly, it will shock a lot of people.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GHEEN: The man I respected most was Governor Bill Richardson. Now, I fervently disagree with Governor Richardson's support for licenses for illegal aliens...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GHEEN: ... and other things on illegal immigration, but at least he's telling you where he's at. These others are trying to conceal their opinions on the issue while Richardson is coming out and telling it like it is.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GHEEN: So I would much rather have a politician tell me how they actually feel because we cannot afford another liar in the White House. This country's not going to survive another liar in the White House.
SANCHEZ: Are you talking about George Bush, by the way?
GHEEN: I'm talking exactly about George Bush. You only tricked me into voting for him once, and I feel a lot better than those people who got stung twice out there.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Bill, you have a fantastic weekend. All right. Hopefully, we'll talk to you. If not, if I don't see you before Thanksgiving, have a good Thanksgiving with your family.
GHEEN: Lou Dobbs for president.
SANCHEZ: I'll tell him you said so.
GHEEN: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: You got to see this next guy. He's playing college football, right? But he's a senior, you know, up in years like the rest of us, I guess. It's been 37 years since he was a junior. Wait until you see him in a uniform. Actually, he looks pretty good. We'll have that in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back on this Friday. This is a special story because we've all heard stories about retirees going back to school and getting their diplomas. But have you ever heard of a 59-year-old guy going back to college, signing up for the football team?
Now, this is something we don't like to do especially those of us who used to wear helmets, maybe got hit a little too much.
Ali Velshi has tonight's "Life After Work."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's game time at Sul Ross State University. And number 49, Mike Flynt, is in, blocking for the kicker. But this backup linebacker isn't your typical player. You see, Mike Flynt is 59 years old.
MIKE FLYNT, 59-YEAR-OLD COLLEGE LINEBACKER: I played 37 years ago as a junior and came back my senior season during two days, got into a physical altercation and was kicked off the team. This past summer we had a reunion. One of the former players mentioned to me that I might still have some eligibility. I told him I still feel like I could play.
VELSHI: Since Flynt never played a senior season, he had a year of athletic eligibility left. So he decided to try out and he made the team, primarily due to the great shape he's in. After graduating in 1972, he worked as a strength coach for various university athletic programs and later on invented an exercise product. But part of him felt unfulfilled.
FLYNT: For more years than I can remember, I regretted not only not being able to play my senior year, but I felt like I let my teammates down. And so this was an opportunity for me to come back and make up for those guys I let down so many years ago.
VELSHI: So Flynt is out there playing against kids that are his grandchildren's age for a coach that is eight years younger than him. And despite some minor injuries, he's playing in games and looking ahead to his next challenge.
FLYNT: Well, we got the NFL draft and -- no.
VELSHI: Ali Velshi, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: That's something I'd like to do. I mean, rather than getting tasered or submerged. Go get my butt kicked playing football.
Check this out. A new march on Washington, thousands accusing the feds of forgetting something. What is it? We're going tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. Here's a question for you tonight. As a nation, are we moving backward when it comes to civil rights?
Thousands seem to think so. They rallied around the justice department today in a march for justice, protesting what they say is the government's turning a blind eye to prosecuting hate crimes in this country.
Justice correspondent Kelli Arena has been watching this today for us, and she's joining us now. Kelli, what was the message that they were trying to send?
KELLI ARENA, JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Rick, there were thousands of protestors, as you said there, and basically they think that the Justice Department has let them down. That they perceive that there's been an increase in bigotry and hate and hate crimes in general, and that the Justice Department just not -- is not prosecuting those aggressively enough.
You know, they walked around that justice department seven times, mimicking what the bible says, the Israelites did around the walls of Jericho. It was part, you know, religion, part politics. But the marchers that I spoke to, Rick, said that, that they're just there frustrated, they're angry, and the most that they were hoping for today was to have their voices heard.
SANCHEZ: Well, here's the -- here's the important question if you can stay with us for about another 20 seconds. Is the DOJ really dragging its feet on this, or is it just hard to prosecute these crimes?
ARENA: It is somewhat hard to prosecute these crimes, but the prosecutors have to prove things on two points. First, that the crime was committed with the motivation...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
ARENA: ... against somebody's race or religion or ethnicity and then they have to prove that it happened, that it violated the constitutionally-protected right of yours -- a right to vote, a right to a safe housing, a right to get to and back to work or to church. So there's a very high legal bar that prosecutors have to hit when they're prosecuting a hate crime federally.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
ARENA: So there's a bit of an issue there.
SANCHEZ: Exactly. Because it's almost like they have to get into somebody's head and that's tough to do.
ARENA: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Kelli Arena, thanks so much.
ARENA: You're welcome.
SANCHEZ: You know, it seems like every week there's a new story about nooses. But have the feds forgotten about these hate crimes?
We're going to put it to somebody who's been following this. We'll have that for you in just 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. Let's dig a little deeper now in today's march for justice. Why is it so important? Warren Ballentine is here. He's joining us with some answers. He's a national radio talk show host who is pro-civil rights and encourages people to vote independent, by the way.
You know, I think what people want to know is, is there really, truly a dysfunction now in this country like we haven't seen for a while because we're seeing marches again? We're seeing rallies. We're seeing unity in the sense of organization among many African- Americans that we haven't seen in a long time. Take us to that thing that's going that maybe you understand, but many people watching us don't.
WARREN BALLENTINE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, Rick, it's obvious. I mean, we are living in the days and times of Jim Crow all over again.
SANCHEZ: Really?
BALLENTINE: You know, let's break down Jim Crow from a legal aspect.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BALLENTINE: One of the definitions that Jim Crow has is the four-prong test. One of the prongs is random acts of violence and hate towards an individual. Well, that's happening in this country from nooses to Megan Williams to the police brutality that's taking place in this country. Economic disenfranchisement is happening in this country. That's one of the other factors that come in play when you talk about Jim Crow.
When you talk about what's going on in the legal system, that's another factor that plays into Jim Crow.
SANCHEZ: So what do you want them -- what do you want the prosecutors specifically to do that they're not doing now? Help us understand that.
BALLENSTINE: Well, it's not just the prosecutors. It's the Department of Justice. I mean, the U.S. Justice Department has the right, the federal authority and the power to readdress victims of violence, racial discrimination and hate, especially minorities people in this country and they're not doing it.
And we're asking them to take a look at this and they actually have under 42 U.S.C. 14141, the authority to actually look at these municipalities, these prosecutors and everybody else that they have a pattern of hate and discrimination going on there. They have the authority to come in and take over, and they're not doing it.
SANCHEZ: Well -- well, you heard what our Kelli Arena was reporting a little while ago. When she put that question to them, they say, you know, these are very difficult cases to prosecute because it goes to intent. So, we'll be following it on both sides and we certainly appreciate it, Warren, you being on with us.
BALLENTINE: But Rick.
SANCHEZ: We do have to go, man, I'm sorry to say. But we'll get you back. We'll get you back and we'll continue this discussion as we have for a long time here OUT IN THE OPEN.
(CROSSTALK)
BALLENTINE: But Rick.
SANCHEZ: By the way, today brings back memories of this. Thousands demanding justice for the Jena Six, but where's all the money for the defense fund? Next, we'll bring you some disturbing questions OUT IN THE OPEN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up in a couple of minutes and he's going to be joining us now to tell us what he's got, Larry?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Tonight, Rick, something right up your alley.
SANCHEZ: Yes?
KING: The world of the spirits, psychics, paranormals, supernatural, graveyards, and Shirley MacLaine, who fits very well.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KING: Yes, the world about which we know little and they know a lot. And then as Mel Brooks would say, we gone and they still.
SANCHEZ: Exactly.
KING: Anyway, the world of the supernatural tonight at the top of the hour, Rick. Don't move!
SANCHEZ: I'll e-mail you some questions. I'll email you some questions about -- that I want answered.
KING: We will read your mind, but we're frightened.
SANCHEZ: Thanks, Larry. Appreciate it. Sounds wonderful. Money poured into the fed for the Jena Six, next, where in the world has some of it gone? We'll break it down. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: This is what we ducked this year because the hurricane gods were good to us. But let's take you to Bangladesh suffering from some of the worst cyclones. That's what they call hurricanes over there, by the way. In years, the storm hit overnight with 131 miles per hour winds.
Look at this. I mean, look at this damage. I mean, everything's leveled. It's gone, trees are down. It hit the west coast near the border with India. At least 1,000 people were killed, 1,000. Thousands more are missing, hundreds of thousands forced from their homes and you can see all of "Rick's Pics," by the way, on CNN.com/Rick.
Next, a half million dollars donated to the Jena Six. Now there are questions about where the money is. We're going to be back in exactly -- show them, Jeff, 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: There's some controversy tonight over that money that was donated to six African-American high school students who were charged with beating a white student at a high school in Jena, Louisiana. A $500,000 dollars came from people who wanted to help pay for the student's legal defense.
Well, tonight accusations and some of it may be missing. Now, take a look at some of these pictures that have been on YouTube, but this is kind of disturbing. It's not necessarily incriminating but disturbing.
Some of this -- pardon me, some of the students with money in their mouths and showing off some of their new jewelry. The pictures -- do we have those? I guess not.
The pictures are causing outrage tonight. There you go. And they raise some troubling questions about all of this. Look at that one right there particularly is the one that's been, you know, considered offensive by a lot of people.
Mervyn Marcano is the spokesperson for Color of Change. That's an online civil rights organization, which had a key role in publicizing the September march in Jena. His group, by the way, has collected more than $200,000 in donations for the Jena Six.
There's about $250,000 out there outstanding, and it's not necessarily about your organization. As a matter of fact, I understand your organization is one of the few that's actually showed some of the blank checks or some of the checks that have been returned. So you seem to be clean on this, but there's some others who've got some problems, right?
MERVYN MARCANO, SPKS., COLOR OF CHANGE: Well, I wouldn't say that there's money that's not accounted for. You know, there's -- a lot of money was donated to the legal defense and also to support the families and I believe the families have some of that money, and they're trying to figure out how best to utilize it.
SANCHEZ: Well, that's the problem, though. See, I mean, we're looking at about $212,000. So then we've got over $250,000 out there that is still not specifically in any trust or at least if it is, we don't know what it is or what it's been said sent to, or what it's been used for, right? Or do you know?
MARCANO: Well, you know, I -- you know, we work directly with the families and we have every confidence in the families that they're doing the right thing. As you can imagine if your son is being charged with some of the crimes of the Jena Six they're being charged with, it's a lot to handle.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MARCANO: And the influx of money is a lot to handle. So they're working with their attorneys and they're working with the trust advisers to figure out how to best support themselves with the money.
I should also say --
SANCHEZ: Well, listen, listen. I hope, Mervyn, that everything works out and everything is clean and everything is above board. But you understand why some questions are being raised and one of these kids is seen -- well, see if you got that picture again.
Let's put that picture up with the kid with the money in his mouth. You know, showing hundred dollar bills. And you know what? He may be perfectly innocent, but you know, it just doesn't look good all of a sudden.
MARCANO: Well, you know, I mean, it was -- Rick, to be honest, it was a stupid move. He's a young guy.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MARCANO: You know, I know a lot of people who pose with dollar bills or $100 bills. It doesn't necessarily mean I assume that they stole that money.
SANCHEZ: Right.
MARCANO: It was a stupid move. I mean, you know, he's in the limelight. He shouldn't have done it. I don't think as a logical thinking person my first thought isn't necessarily that he stole the money from people.
SANCHEZ: No. No. No. Listen, I agree with you and you're right. You know, listen, I have teenagers. I understand stupid things, not to mention the fact that I was one as well. It's just the fact that it is involved with a fundraiser and suddenly he's showing off money that makes people go, ooh.
So -- but we're going to stay on top of it. We're going to stay in contact with you and follow the story as it develops. Mervyn Marcano, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it. MARCANO: All right.
SANCHEZ: Coming up at the top of the hour Larry king tackles the paranormal as he was having a good time with a little while ago. Ghosts, voices, spirits and more with psychics. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: That's all for us tonight. Thanks so much for being with us. "LARRY KING LIVE" really cool show tonight. Psychedelic starts right now.
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