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Delays Plaguing Major Airports; Fighting Terror: Bolstering Pakistan's Paramilitary; Juvenile Rape Case?; Broadway Strike; Vaccination or Jail; Pakistan in Crisis: A Government for the Rich Only?

Aired November 19, 2007 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: If you're heading out to visit family and friends for Thanksgiving, brace yourself. It's already a mess at some of the nation's busiest airports.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And if you're driving, get set for sticker shock. Gas prices up again.

We're keeping track of everything that you should be aware of right now across the country.

Hello, everyone. I'm Kyra Phillips at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.

LEMON: And I'm Don Lemon.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Happening right now, foggy weather in Atlanta, radio communications problems at DFW. Air travelers have already had to face major delays today at some of the country's busiest airports and biggest airports.

Chad Myers joins us now from the CNN weather center to tell us all about that.

Starting already, huh, Chad?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, not getting any better at this point in time. And really bad news for the Cross Bronx Expressway eastbound, and I'll get to that map in a second. That's anybody traveling I-95 from -- let's say you're trying to get to Philadelphia to Boston. There's been a fuel spill there on the Cross Bronx and things are just going downhill from here.

Here are the airports. We had a little bit of light rain and snow across the Northeast today, and the wind, too, slowing things down.

From Chicago now, that delay is about two hours. And then from O'Hare, ground delays at two hours and 15 minutes. LaGuardia, and you see Newark and San Francisco, all over an hour. LaGuardia, almost two-hour delays.

And now more major airports are getting involved as well. The lists keep getting longer. DFK, JFK, Las Vegas at 30 minutes. And Philadelphia right now at 20 minutes. Now I'll get you to this ugliness here across I-95. You can go to Google. Go to Google maps, click on "Traffic." That's one of the buttons up on top. It's that button right there. And you can see what's going on on the traffic and where you're going.

But right here at the Bronx River Expressway and the Cross Bronx, there's been a fuel spill. And if you go to traffic.com, you can see that this effect is 9.3. They rate them from 1 to 10. Well, 9.3 is way up there.

And this backup now is all the way across the bridge, all the way back into New Jersey, just trying to get to the east across I-95. And other than going way up north or trying to get down across, across Staten Island, there's not too many other ways to get across here and back out toward Boston.

You can take some tunnels and then get into the New York City traffic, but I can't imagine that's much better right now. It is slowing down on this only Monday. Can you imagine how -- what it's going to be like on Wednesday?

Don, Kyra, back to you.

PHILLIPS: That's why we're staying home.

MYERS: Exactly right. That's why I'm working.

PHILLIPS: We've got the inside scoop, brother.

LEMON: Not driving anywhere.

PHILLIPS: Days like this I don't mind working.

All right.

Thanks, Chad.

What a mess this morning at a major airline hub. The radio communication system at Dallas/Ft. Worth International Airport actually went on the blink, and it forced a lot of those travelers to, well, attempt to cool their heels.

More on that now from reporter Jackie Hyland with our affiliate WFAA.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JACKIE HYLAND, REPORTER, WFAA (voice over): The day began at DFW International Airport like any other, but with three days until Thanksgiving Day, it was shaping up to be a busy one. Then just around 7:00 a.m. the unthinkable happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We heard that the towers, that their power was out and there were some problems communicating with FAA. We're not -- we don't have all the details.

HYLAND: In fact, radio communication to the FAA's east and west towers was disrupted, prompting an immediate ground stop. Flights into and out of DFW suspended. It even affected Love Field.

By 7:21, communications at the east tower had been restored and flights allowed to take off again. By 8:00, the west tower was working again. But for many travelers, like the Stramos (ph) family, the damage was already done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, an hour.

HYLAND (on camera): How do you feel about it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not too excited about it, but, you know, we're just going to get there as soon as we can, and hopefully it's not any later than that.

HYLAND (voice over): Many travelers heading out of DFW today just happened to be Cowboys fans going home after yesterday's big game. And luck was on their side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm on vacation, so I've got a lot of time.

HYLAND (on camera): And just think, you get the pleasure of staying in Dallas a little longer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Well, Dallas is a great city. I used to be stationed here, so I like it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Dallas/Ft. Worth International is the country's third busiest airport in passenger volume.

LEMON: Well, if you're flying to see family and friends this Thanksgiving, you'll want to get there before the turkey gets cold, I'm sure. The Transportation Security Administration wants to help you do that.

It's out with its new campaign called Simplifly. But it's up to you to help make it happen.

Among other things, pack your carry-on bags in layers, like clothes first and then electronics, so security can see what's in there. But even if everybody goes smoothly or everything goes smoothly, the TSA says you should still expect some delays.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELLEN HOWE, TSA SPOKESMAN: This time of year you can expect 15 to 30- minute waits at checkpoints. If we get waits longer than 30 minutes, you're going to see senior management attention, you're going to see things happening in that airport to alleviate those lines. We want to get you through, but you've got to expect that you're going to have a little bit longer wait this time of year than other times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And the TSA says one thing that will really speed up your trip through security is to have your I.D. and boarding pass ready when you check -- when you reach each checkpoint. I feel like the people at the airport -- have your IDs out, have your boarding pass, don't put in through the machine.

If you're getting behind the wheel this Thanksgiving, you don't want to hear this. The latest Lundberg Survey shows gas prices have climbed about 13 cents from two weeks ago. The national average for a gallon of unleaded regular is now $3.09.

San Francisco drivers are hurting the most. The average price there, $3.48 a gallon. And the nation's lowest average is in Tucson, Arizona, at $2.91 a gallon.

PHILLIPS: He picked the court, now the court is backing him. Pakistan's supreme court today rejected some major legal challenges to President Pervez Musharraf's re-election bid. Musharraf packed the court with judges that he picked himself shortly after declaring a state of emergency more than two weeks ago. That court will hear a last legal challenge on Thursday, but pro-democracy activists say its decisions are no longer valid.

Meantime, the U.S. is still pushing for Musharraf to restore democracy and looking at new ways to help Pakistani forces crack down on terrorists in the lawless northwest.

CNN's Barbara Starr at the Pentagon with the latest on those efforts.

Hey, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Kyra.

Well, it does remain to be seen at this point just how strong the Bush administration support for Musharraf really is.

Listen for a minute to something Defense Secretary Robert Gates had to say a couple of days ago when he was asked, could Musharraf continue to be the U.S.' vital partner in the war on terror?

Listen to what Gates had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I'm not going to make a call like that. I would say though that his ability to lead -- to continue to be a partner in the war on terror very much depends on how developments unfold in the -- over the next few weeks in Pakistan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: So a bit of perhaps tempered support there, Kyra. And as you say, the U.S. now looking for new ways to try and support some of the Pakistani military's efforts in that country against al Qaeda and the Taliban. And what they are doing now, the U.S. Special Operations command, thinking about trying to train and possibly even arm Pakistan's Frontier Corps. That's a group of about 60,000 to 80,000 troops -- look at the map there -- that operate out in that remote northwest frontier area against the Taliban and al Qaeda safe haven in that region. Pentagon and military officials have confirmed to CNN that they indeed are looking at a number of new initiatives to try and arm and possibly train them against those militant and fundamentalist groups. So a bit of life is moving on with or without Musharraf -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, Barbara, the U.S. already gives the military there millions and millions of dollars. Where exactly is that money going, and is the U.S. getting something out of that?

STARR: Well, very interesting. You know, last week, the Pentagon said it hadn't yet cut any of the aid, any of the military aid to Pakistan at this point. But today they went back and said it all does, in fact, still remain under review, millions of dollars, as you say, in military assistance, millions of dollars each month that the U.S. pays Pakistan, essentially reimbursing them, if you will, for their support for the war on terror. If Musharraf falls, if a new government is installed, all of that could again be on the table for discussion -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Thanks, Barbara.

STARR: Sure.

LEMON: All rape cases are awful, there's no disputing that, but this one in suburban Atlanta really ups the ante on that. The alleged victim is 11 years old. Her three alleged attackers, 8 and 9 years old.

The girl says the boys pulled her into the woods by their apartment complex and assaulted her. Now one of the boy's fathers has come forward. He says any sexual activity was consensual and the girl made up the rape story so she wouldn't get in trouble with her parents. The investigation, of course, continues. In the meantime, the boys are facing some serious charges

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. WAYNE DENNARD, ACWORTH, GEORGIA, POLICE: They are all three charged with rape at this time. I'm not sure exactly how many of them participated in the actual rape, but the charges range from rape to kidnapping, false imprisonment and sexual assault.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The three young suspects are making their first appearance in juvenile court this hour.

PHILLIPS: The Motor City all revved up. Detroit says it's not the most dangerous city in America, despite what that survey says.

LEMON: And get your children vaccinated or get thrown in jail. Some suburban Washington parents say their school district is going way too far.

PHILLIPS: Returning to the stage, revisiting his sorrow. Fresh off the loss of his mom, Kanye West breaks down.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: All rape cases are awful, but this one out of suburban Atlanta really ups the ante. The alleged victim 11 years old. And get this, her alleged attackers, 8 and 9.

CNN's Rusty Dornin has been following the story for us.

What do you think about what we know so far?

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's -- the details are very sketchy. The kids are actually in court right now, in juvenile court in Cobb County. And from what we know, last Thursday, three two boys, two 8-year-olds and a 9-year-old, were playing with this 11-year-old girl outside their apartment complex.

Now, she told her mother that at some point they dragged her into the woods and they sexually assaulted her, they raped her. She tells her mother. The police pull the kids in and do all these tests. And they are saying, well, it's credible. The police are saying these charges are credible.

Meantime, the father of one of the boys is saying this was no rape, that the 11-year-old girl -- it was consensual. She didn't want her parents to know she had sexual relations.

PHILLIPS: How can it be consensual when you're 11 and 8 years old?

DORNIN: Well, let's talk about that. Let's listen to what the police chief says about that accusation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF MICHAEL WILKIE, ACWORTH, GEORGIA, POLICE: We can certainly understand why a father would speak defensively of his child. Again, we go with the information that we are given. That accusation has an implication that children of that age can consent to this type of act, and of course they cannot. It's illegal. They cannot have consent, and so we have to go forward with the charges that we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: Now, those charges are rape, sexual assault, false imprisonment, and even kidnapping.

Now, there was some question as to whether they were going to be charged as adults. From all the research that we've done in Georgia, an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old cannot be charged as adults. The minimum age is 13. And that usually applies in capital cases. So certainly they're going to -- these are very serious charges, very adult-sounding charges, which they are, but they will be tried in some kind of a juvenile court.

PHILLIPS: And you so much want to know about these families and if indeed this is true and these kids are found guilty. I mean, where are the parents and where are the conversations and where are they learning this type of activity at 8 years old?

DORNIN: Right. Well, the mother of the young girl is coming out, of course, and she's denying these accusations that it was consensual at all. So it's already -- there's -- the back and forth is already going on. It's probably going to be fairly difficult for investigators to get to the bottom of all of this, but it's very disturbing.

PHILLIPS: Well, we're going to follow the case.

Thanks, Rusty.

LEMON: Fourteen past the hour, almost 15 past the hour.

(NEWSBREAK)

LEMON: No joy for striking Broadway stagehands this Thanksgiving. As you can see, they're walking the picket lines. There they go.

Negotiations stalled between their union and the producers and theater owners yesterday. So the curtains are closed on dozens of Broadway shows for yet another week.

And our Jim Acosta live in Times Square with the not so good, cheery holiday news -- Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, that's right. It's Thanksgiving week, and theatergoers in New York City are pretty sure who the turkeys are this time of year, and that is the stagehands, the theater owners, who could not come to an agreement over the weekend.

They held talks again to see if they could get somehow get past this impasse that they have been at for the last several months, even though the stagehands went on strike about a week and a half ago. All of this having to do with the theater owners wanting to limit the number of stagehands they have working behind the scenes, this deadlock that is going on between the two sides.

That is resulting in some 27 stages being cancelled, which means people who are coming from across the country to New York City to see a Broadway show are showing up and finding that these theaters are closed. And those theatergoers are now -- they're going to have to find something else to do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF PEREZ, VISITOR: No, it doesn't annoy us. I mean, we know why they are doing it, and it's -- it's just -- it's more inconvenient than anything else. And it's more important than us seeing a show, you know, what they are fighting for, so we totally understand. So we're not -- we're not angered about it.

COREY HUISENGA, VISITOR: Kind of upset. I mean, that's one of the big reasons we come here, is for the shows. So -- but, what are you going to do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And the theatergoers down here, obviously, they are finding other things to do. They are hitting other restaurants across town, they're hitting off-Broadway productions, which is seeing a little bit of an uptick.

And this is a lucrative time of year for Broadway, the biggest time of year for Broadway, to be in the dark. Last year they made approximately $30 million, and if there's one hint of good news on the horizon -- and we have to caution that this is tentative at this point -- there's a 4:00 press conference involving the people behind the scenes, people who put "The Grinch That Stole Christmas" on.

They are holding a press conference at 4:00 this afternoon to talk about their plans. Could that possibly mean the Grinch is back? We don't know at this point. However, it was reported in "The New York Times" this morning that the Grinch does have a -- not the Grinch individually, but the show -- has a separate contract with the stagehands, and there is some hope there that perhaps the stagehands and at least that production, which is just a limited production which doesn't run continuously but only through the holidays, could possibly get the lights back on down here.

We'll see, Don.

LEMON: Yes. And Jim, real quickly, you mentioned how much money it's costing Broadway, millions. But I remember there was a strike back in '02 or '03, and restaurants in the area, businesses in the area, lost millions every day, the city did, because folks weren't coming, tourists had nowhere to go.

ACOSTA: And this a billion-dollar industry in New York City. People don't realize that shows like "Le Miserables," "Phantom of the Opera," "Spamalot," "Young Frankenstein," "Mary Poppins," you add it all up, we're talking -- you know, this is a billion-dollar industry, and it is a major hit for New York City to see this happen this time of year.

And it's not just these theaters. It's the restaurants, it's the other businesses that you mentioned. And on top of that you have the theatergoers who aren't just buying tickets -- you know, $100 ticket to a show. In many cases they have booked hotels, they have bought airline tickets, and all of that is a loss to people, it puts a bitter taste in their mouth.

You know, the people down here on Broadway are worried that this could potentially affect people's attitudes about Broadway, that perhaps they may not book those trips in the future if they think that this is, you know, a shaky situation down here. So we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully, you know, we haven't seen the curtain close on this holiday season just yet.

LEMON: Jim Acosta, thank you.

PHILLIPS: A kid without all his shots could mean jail for his parents. We're going to tell you how one county is forcing the vaccination issue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Getting tough in Prince George's County, Maryland. Get your school-aged kids vaccinated or prove they have been. The alternative, possible jail time.

Our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, joins us now.

Elizabeth, school started more than, what, two months ago? And why such a drastic action now? It's the holidays.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. I guess maybe they want to ruin their holidays. I'm sure that's not it.

The school says, look, we've been telling people all this time for all these months that they need to get their kids vaccinated, and thousands of parents are not listening. So they said we have to get tough.

Now, of course, all kids around the country are supposed to be vaccinated before they go to school, but they are getting really tough. They are going way above what most places do.

They say if you don't vaccinate your kid, here's what's going to happen -- a fine of $50 a day, or you can also go to jail for up to 10 days. So those are some pretty stiff fines, because they say this is a criminal act and people ought to be listening.

LEMON: Well, you know, hey, I can't really laugh at it. What I'm sort of sitting here doing that about is, I remember in school we couldn't go as well when we were kids without vaccinations, but they didn't threaten jail time. So I guess the problem is a little bit more serious than one might think.

But some parents have very strong objections. Are there any alternatives to this if you don't want to get your child vaccinated?

COHEN: In Maryland there are two things you can do. Or one thing a parent can do and one thing a doctor can do.

You can get a medical exemption, where a doctor says it is a threat to this child's health if they get vaccinated. Those are really hard to do. Doctors don't want to say it unless it's true.

And for most kids, vaccines aren't going to hurt them. So that's a hard one to do.

Or you can say you have a religious objection, and there probably are some people who say they have a religious objection, even when it's not religious. They just don't think vaccines are safe.

And parents say we're put in kind of a funny position. We don't want to vaccinate our child. We think it's going to be harmful to the child. We don't like vaccines, but we don't want to lie and say it's a religious objection.

LEMON: OK. So what are the objections again? You said religious. What are they -- to getting this vaccine?

COHEN: Well, religious. The objections for most of the parents, parents who object to giving them, aren't really religious. What they are is that they think that vaccines are harmful.

Many parents think, for example, that vaccines could make their child autistic, even though there's been study after study saying, no, that's not true, vaccines don't cause autism. And then there's one vaccine in particular that a lot of parents have been going after which is Hepatitis B. They say Hepatitis B isn't out there in great numbers, it's not terribly contagious, I don't want my child to have any risk from a vaccine when they are not really at risk for getting the disease in the first place.

So those are the two big complaints that you hear from parents.

LEMON: Jail time.

COHEN: Jail time.

LEMON: OK.

COHEN: We'll have to see if it happens or see if these parents try to sort of figure out some way around that.

LEMON: Or see if a judge would even enforce it.

COHEN: Yes, you do have to wonder about that, don't you? Yes.

LEMON: Yes. All right. Elizabeth, thank you.

COHEN: Thanks.

(BUSINESS REPORT)

LEMON: We go now from baseball and basketball that you guys were talking about to football and news about former Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick.

Betty Nguyen working it for us.

What do you have, Betty?

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. We've learned that Michael Vick may be spending Thanksgiving in jail, Don. Here's what we know.

It's according to "The Richmond Times-Dispatch," and they're reporting today that Michael Vick has turned himself into the U.S. Marshals Office in Richmond today to get a head start on serving whatever sentence he receives on December 10th for a dogfighting conspiracy.

He was transported to the jail where federal prisoners are housed about 1:30 p.m. Eastern. Vick and all three of his co-defendants have, as you know, Don, pleaded guilty in connection with dogfighting charges. The maximum crime is five years in federal prison, so it appears that Vick is trying to get a head start on that.

He's not going to receive his official sentence until December 10th, but, again, as we mentioned, he is in jail today. And it looks like he's going to stay there for some time, at least until December 10th, when he gets the actual news on how long his sentence will be -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Betty. Thank you very much for that.

Thanks to a new crime report, Detroit becomes America's most unwanted address. The police chief isn't the only one who is hopping mad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back now to the breaking news desk. Betty Nguyen working on a developing story.

Michael Vick, Betty.

NGUYEN: It looks like he's going to be spending Thanksgiving in jail, as far as we know. This coming to us from "The Richmond Times- Dispatch." Of course, we're trying to confirm it as well, but we know that Michael Vick, according to the paper, has turned himself into the U.S. Marshal's Office there in Richmond, Virginia, to get a head start, Don, on serving whatever sentence that he receives.

Again, he hasn't been sentenced just yet, and that's not scheduled for December 10th. Of course, for the dogfighting conspiracy.

So he doesn't know exactly how long he's going to be sentenced to jail, but he's getting a head start on that Thanksgiving week, in fact. He was transported earlier today around 1:30 p.m. to the regional jails where federal prisoners are being held. Vick and all three of his co-defendants have pleaded guilty in connection with dogfighting charges.

And one more thing I want to tell you about. Not only this, Don, has a maximum of five years in federal prison, but Vick also faces state charges of animal cruelty. So we're going to learn much more about that once that comes to pass, but for the moment Michael Vick is in jail and will stay there presumably until December 10th, when he receives his sentence -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Betty. Thank you very much for that.

(WEATHER REPORT)

PHILLIPS: Rain, snow, fog, wind, they all can throw the nation's air traffic system into chaos. But there are some other reasons you might want to -- or you might end up getting stranded at the airport this holiday season. Here's CNN's Josh Levs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The fastest form of travel comes with ridiculously frequent delays. The government knows it has a problem.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The skies are too crowded.

MARION BLAKEY, FMR. FED. AVIATION ADMINISTRATOR: As we look at it annually over the whole year, it's a $10 billion problem for the United States.

LEVS: But for all the talk, we're not seeing the problems fixed. 2007 is the worst year for flight delays on record. One of every four flights delayed.

Why?

BLAKEY: Well, I can tell you right now that the biggest problem is always the weather.

LEVS: Not exactly. The Department of Transportation says nearly half of flight delays can be linked to weather, but the department says many of those could be avoided with corrective action by the airports or the Federal Aviation Administration. So, if a better system were in place, many delays currently blamed on weather just wouldn't happen. The number of delays due to extreme weather that prevents flying, just one percent of all lights for the year.

What about security concerns? Are they causing many delays? Nope. The government says less than a 10th of one percent of all flights were delayed because of security.

So what are the cause of the delays? Aircraft arriving late, the national aviation system, and air carrier delays. Why is this happening? Airlines acknowledge they have work to do when it comes to organization and efficiency, and the FAA itself says this...

ROBERT STURGELL, FAA ACTING ADMINISTRATOR: More people are flying than ever and more smaller planes are carrying them.

LEVS (on camera): There are talks under way about reshaping the whole aviation system, but for now, there's no reason to believe things will be fixed anytime soon.

Josh Levs, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Well, he picked the court. Now the court is backing him. Pakistan's supreme court today rejected some major legal challenges to President Pervez Musharraf's re-election bad. Musharraf packed the court with judges he picked himself shortly after declaring a state of emergency more than two weeks ago. The court will hear a last legal challenge on Thursday, but pro-democracy activists say its decisions are no longer valid.

How is the political crisis playing out in the countryside?

CNN's Karl Penhaul visited one small village.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is a farming village like many in Pakistan, where time is marked by the harvest. Where progress and politics slip by with most unnoticed.

General Pervez Musharraf's two-week-old emergency crackdown seems to have caused little upset here. "We felt no change in our village after the state of emergency. We're too far from Islamabad," he says.

Around two-thirds of Pakistan's 160 million population live in the countryside. According to United Nations figures, around three- quarters of Pakistanis survive on less than $2 a day.

Mohammed Ayub (ph) is too busy scraping a living milling corn to worry about the current political upheaval. He says Pakistan's politicians have rarely done any favors for the poor. "Look around you and you can see how much the politicians care about us," he tells me.

A few yards away stone mason Hussun Din is shaping a rock into a bowl. He can sell each one for around 30 cents. He's grateful to President Musharraf for helping pave the village streets (INAUDIBLE), but he has no respect for Musharraf's rival, Benazir Bhutto, who many see as corrupt.

"Some of the politicians remember us, others don't. The ones who come to fill their own pockets forget us," he says. But while some politicians may forget, the religious leaders do no not, teaching poor village children to read and memorize the Koran.

The imam at this mosque welcomes us but refuses to talk on camera. He says most of Pakistan's politicians are only for the benefit of the rich. But it's those wealthy political elites like Benazir Bhutto that U.S. officials still hope will cut a deal with Mr. Musharraf and defuse Pakistan's political crisis.

JOHN NEGROPONTE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: We believe that the path of political moderation is the best way forward for Pakistan, and that to the extent that that is true, reconciliation between the moderate political forces is a very desirable thing.

PENHAUL: Political maneuvering that few poor villagers here believe will herald an improvement in their fortunes.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Pakistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Thanks to a new crime report, Detroit becomes America's most unwanted address. The police chief isn't the only one who is hopping mad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Is Detroit the most dangerous city in America? A new crime report says yes, but Detroit isn't taking the news laying down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't agree at all. You see, I'm here on a Sunday night, Greektown. I mean, it's really a good experience. I mean, we're at the bakery, plenty of people in here. I don't think anybody is in fear at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can't leave it all to the police department. They have a lot to do. And we appreciate the work that they are doing but they can't do it alone. We have to be their eyes and their ears.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Police chief Ella Bully Cummings joins us from Detroit with reaction, and publisher John Jenkins is in Washington. He heads the CQ Press, the group that did the study.

Thank you both for joining us today in the CNN NEWSROOM. We know it's a very busy time for you at the holidays.

CHIEF ELLA BULLY-CUMMINGS, DETROIT POLICE: Thank you very much for having me on.

JOHN JENKINS, PUBLISHER, "CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY": Glad to be here.

LEMON: Chief, you took particular -- I guess I should say interest in this study, obviously. But you don't think it's accurate. You don't think Detroit belongs at the top of the list?

BULLY-CUMMINGS: What I will tell you is that I've taken exception to the way the data has been presented. I don't believe that I'm the only one that is taking exception to it.

You have the American Society of Criminology. You have the U.S. Conference of Mayors.

What has happened is voluntary data that we provide to the FBI for the uniformed crime reports -- free data, mind you -- that the FBI uses to do trend analysis, trend analysis on a national and regional level, has been taken. So free data has been taken by a company, an organization that, in my opinion, has manipulated the data and is now offering it for sale. So, yes, I take exception.

LEMON: OK, Chief. All right, Chief. I want Mr. Jenkins to get in on this.

You published this. You say that this is just -- the cities and the folks in the cities who take exception to this, you say they are just shooting the messenger. JENKINS: Well, we're just -- we're not manipulating the data at all. We're simply reporting the official government FBI statistics that we have. It's as simple as that.

We're a journalistic entity, a journalistic organization. We're doing what in the time-honored tradition of journalists is, presenting data fairly and factually. So that's exactly what we're doing.

LEMON: And I want to talk to you about that data, because even the FBI criticized this report. And I just want to read what they say.

This is Rob Casey, who heads the FBI section that puts out the Uniform Crime Report. He says that, "You're not comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing watermelons and grapes. These rough rankings provide no insight into the numerous variables that mold crime in a particular town, city or county, state or region. Now, consequently, they lead to simplistic and/or incomplete analysis that often create misleading perceptions adversely affecting communities and their residents."

Even the FBI says that this information, Mr. Jenkins, is misleading.

JENKINS: No. The FBI is not saying that the information itself is misleading. The FBI is actually collecting this information for very good reason, because it is...

BULLY-CUMMINGS: No. You know what? They're not -- no, no, no, no, no.

LEMON: The information the way that you're presenting it, is what I'm saying.

BULLY-CUMMINGS: It's taking the data and throwing it in a box and shaking it up and making it smell different. That is not what the FBI is doing.

That was never the intent. And the FBI will tell you the intent of law enforcement sharing this information was for trend analysis, regionally and nationally. There's a big difference when you weight a homicide the same as you would an auto theft. That's manipulating data.

JENKINS: Oh, I think there's a very good reason for doing that, Chief Bully-Cummings.

And I think the chief has a very difficult job. And my hat is off to her actually for stepping up and coming out and being right in front of the matter this afternoon.

But the fact is that what we're doing is telling the public, what is the likelihood of being affected by a crime? It isn't...

BULLY-CUMMINGS: Then why don't you use all of the factors which contribute to crime? Why don't you provide how you arrived at your analysis? Why do you call your analysis proprietary? You know?

JENKINS: The analysis is not proprietary. BULLY-CUMMINGS: If you really wanted to provide the truth to America, you would -- well, that's what your press release said.

LEMON: I've got to jump in here.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Mr. Jenkins, she actually brings up a very good point here. When you look at certain cities, she said that certain things are not put in the mix.

You rank a homicide the same way you would a sort of petty crime or quality of life crime. What about in cities with huge -- hang on.

JENKINS: No, there's only...

LEMON: Cities like Philadelphia, New Orleans and other large cities who have huge crime problems did not rank anywhere near Detroit. Why are they not even in this? Chicago was taken out of the mix because of data, because they didn't have the data that was supposed to be supplied.

JENKINS: There are a couple of cities that are not in the mix because the FBI did not put them into the mix. But, in fact, we've looked at the data from those cities and it doesn't change the overall rankings, it doesn't change the overall rankings.

We're not sociologists. We're reporters. We're journalists. We're taking the information that we get from the government and we're doing a ranking that is absolutely valid.

LEMON: There's...

BULLY-CUMMINGS: Then why would you do something which if you go on the FBI's Web site it cautions against doing the very thing that you're doing?

JENKINS: That's the FBI acknowledging that there are criminologists and sociologists who believe there are many, many other reasons for crime. And we don't -- I don't take a position on that. We're taking the FBI data and collecting it and compiling it fairly and putting it into a form that's useable by the average person.

LEMON: OK.

Really quickly...

BULLY-CUMMINGS: You're putting it in a form which is totally out of context.

LEMON: Chief, I hate to cut both of you off, but we're running out of time. And I just want to say real quickly, if you can respond yes or no, these findings they say are groundless and do more home to the than help even by just reporting it in this manner.

Do you agree, sir, Mr. Jenkins? JENKINS: I think that it's not up to me to speak for the Detroit Chamber of Commerce.

LEMON: OK.

And Chief?

BULLY-CUMMINGS: I find that when you put information out of context, it does a lot of harm to cities. It does a lot of harm to the communities in those cities. And it does an injustice to law enforcement.

LEMON: All right.

Chief Ella Bully-Cummings from Detroit, and also publisher John Jenkins, who heads up CQ Press, we thank you both for joining us today.

JENKINS: Thank you.

BULLY-CUMMINGS: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Some news on NFL player Michael Vick.

Let's get to the newsroom. Betty Nguyen working details on this story -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Yes, we've learned that Michael Vick is going to be spending Thanksgiving in jail and a lot longer than that. In fact, CNN has confirmed that he pretty much turned himself in today around noon in Richmond, Virginia.

Now, his sentencing isn't scheduled until December 10th, but he decided to get a head start on serving whatever that sentence will be for dogfighting conspiracy. He was transported to the Northern Neck Regional Jail in Richmond a little bit earlier today, around noon Eastern Time.

Vick and all three of his co-defendants, Kyra, have pleaded guilty in connection with dogfighting charges. The maximum sentence in this -- and we'll hear more about that on December 10th -- but he could get up to five years in prison. Again, on December 10th, that is when the sentencing hearing will take place and we'll know exactly how much time he'll be spending behind bars -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. We're going to talk with Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst, at the top of the hour.

Betty Nguyen, thanks.

A new twist in a bizarre case of murder in Italy. Three suspects in custody, including the victim's American roommate. But now a bloody fingerprint turns up that doesn't belong to any of them.

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