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Illinois Refuses to Allow Feds to Enforce Immigration Laws; GOP Candidates Prepare for CNN-YouTube Debate

Aired November 28, 2007 - 19:00   ET


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. And good evening from Chicago, Illinois.
Tonight one of the most reckless examples of a sanctuary state in the nation, sanctuary state for illegal aliens, Illinois refusing to allow the federal government to enforce some of our immigration laws. And one of the illegal alien lobby's most outspoken leaders, Congressman Luis Gutierrez joins us.

Some states such as Arizona are trying to uphold the rule of law and stop the harsh impact of our illegal immigration crisis. But the pro-amnesty lobby and corporate supremacists are doing everything possible in that state to block law enforcement. We'll have that special report.

And Republican presidential candidates tonight making final preparations for the CNN/YouTube debate in St. Petersburg, Florida; one of the candidates, Rudy Giuliani facing startling new allegations about his conduct. Is it hype or is there something to this or is it just another attack. And we'll review the debate with three of the country's sharpest political analysts and strategists, all of that, and all the day's news, much more straight ahead here tonight.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Wednesday, November 28. Live from Chicago, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.

Tonight from Chicago, the Pentagon today issued a formal protest to communist China after Beijing refused to allow one of our aircraft carriers to visit Hong Kong as had been planned and approved. That protest comes one day after two senior U.S. admirals blasted China's decision calling it both surprising and troubling. It is the strongest criticism of communist China by U.S. military commanders in years.

Jamie McIntyre has our report from the Pentagon. Jamie?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, you know the old saying, any port in a storm, that apparently is not the policy of the Chinese government. And that has the Pentagon seeing red.


MCINTYRE (voice-over): A reunion delayed. U.S. soldiers finally see their families in Yokosuka, Japan after a planned Thanksgiving celebration last week in Hong Kong had to be scuttled. When China reneged on a promised port call for the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk; now China's offering its first explanation. Its foreign minister telling President Bush it was all just a misunderstanding. The Pentagon says that's not good enough.

GEOFF MORRELL, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: There does not seem to be such a reason at this time that's obvious or apparent to any of us. It is baffling. It is -- it's regrettable. And we have not to date received sufficient explanation as to why it took place.

MCINTYRE: Angry, the Pentagon called in the Chinese defense attache to lodge a formal protest, not just about rebuffing the Kitty Hawk, that simply disappointed and inconvenienced some 300 family members who flew to Hong Kong for nothing, but also to protest a more troubling breach of protocol the day before. Two American mine sweepers, the Patriot and Guardian, among the smallest ships in the Navy were refused refuge from rough seas, when a sudden storm blew up. The top commander in the Pacific was outraged.

ADMIRAL TIMOTHY KEATING, U.S. PACIFIC COMMANDER: They suffered no damage, but this is kind of an unwritten law amongst seamen that if someone is in need, regardless of phylum or species, you let them come in. You give them safe harbor. Jimmy Buffett has songs about it, for crying out loud.

MCINTYRE: The inexplicable snubs follow a trip to Beijing just three weeks ago by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates. It seemed like relations were improving so China's motives are all the more mysterious. One theory is the Chinese are miffed that on his visit, Gates failed to mention new Patriot missile sales to Taiwan, but the Pentagon says that's never been a secret.

Another guess is China was hiding naval maneuvers, but the U.S. Pacific command says the exercises were miles to the south. Some even suspect retaliation for President Bush giving a congressional gold medal to the Dalai Lama, but military commanders reject that as unlikely.


MCINTYRE: China has launched a protest of its own after the USS Kitty Hawk returned to Japan by way of the Taiwan Strait which China sees as its territory. The U.S. Navy denies that was any sort of "in your face gesture," saying it was simply a matter of better weather making smoother sailing. Lou?

DOBBS: Well a lot of feathers ruffled, as the cliche goes in the Pentagon. The fact is it was an outright insult to the United States government, the U.S. Navy. What is the White House saying?

MCINTYRE: Well, you know, they still haven't gotten a good explanation from China about why this happened. And that's the part they say is the most baffling about it. I think what they're going to look for is to look ahead and see what happens in the next couple of days and weeks, whether there's any sort of repeat of this again. But again, the most troubling incident they felt, the Pentagon feels is this case where two ships needed to refuel and get out of a storm and China said no. That's just sort of against every international protocol.

DOBBS: Well, and the suggestion that the Kitty Hawk going through the Straits is somehow a violation of Chinese claim to waters is absurd. But I think the American people would like to hear from the Pentagon and certainly the commander in chief when he finds the courage to do so. Something more than bafflement and outright protest against what communist China is doing. That would be my suspicion.

Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.

President Bush today intensified his efforts to achieve a peace agreement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. In an exclusive interview with our Wolf Blitzer, President Bush said he's determined to ensure the peace talks that began in Annapolis, Maryland this week, remain on track.


DOBBS: ... the White House.


ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The day after Annapolis, President Bush continued his new hands-on role trying to broker Mideast peace.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the commitment of these leaders to working hard to achieve peace. I wouldn't be standing here if I didn't believe that peace was possible. And they wouldn't be here either if they didn't think peace was possible.

HENRY: He met in the oval office with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to begin trying to turn a tentative agreement signed at Tuesday's Annapolis conference into an actual accord.

BUSH: Yesterday was an important day. It was a hopeful beginning. No matter how important yesterday was, it's not nearly as important as tomorrow and the days beyond.

HENRY: Behind closed doors, Mr. Bush prodded the leaders not to lose sight of the ultimate goal by getting bogged down on emotional issues.

DANA PERINO, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There would be days when it looks like things were really tough. But if you keep your eye on the big picture, you can help make sure that you have a successful negotiation.

HENRY: But they dodged the tough issues in the written agreement at Annapolis, such as whether the two states would share Jerusalem as a capital. AARON DAVID MILLER, FMR. U.S. MIDEAST NEGOTIATOR: The "J" word, for example Jerusalem, was not mentioned. And I think that's emblematic. As understandable as it is given their constraints, it's emblematic of the mountains that need to be climbed if this thing is going to actually work.


HENRY: The president is making clear he can't climb those mountains. That's up to the Israelis and the Palestinians. But he's willing to be a facilitator to try and help get this deal done. Lou?

DOBBS: Thank you -- Ed Henry from the White House.

Well, one of the mountains that must be confronted and climbed in the course of a presidential campaign, or the politics of destruction. And our John King will have a report on allegations against Rudy Giuliani upcoming, and a confrontation in our illegal immigration crisis that's now being watched across the entire country. Christine Romans is here with a report for us. Christine?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the federal government is suing the state of Illinois saying Illinois is blocking the enforcement of federal immigration law. I have that story, Lou.

DOBBS: Looking forward to it. Christine, thank you.

Also tonight corporate supremacists in Arizona trying to thwart the will of the people in that state in their battle against the impact of illegal immigration. We'll have the report and one of the amnesty lobby's most outspoken leaders and advocates. Congressman Luis Gutierrez is among our guests here tonight. He wants to reward illegal aliens, who have broken our laws, and I'll have a few words for "The New York Times" after one of its columnists, well, he admitted I'm winning the argument against corporate elites and socio- ethnocentric special interest groups, but he said a few other things, too. We'll take it up with him. Stay with us as we continue live tonight from Chicago, Illinois.


DOBBS: We've reported extensively on this broadcast for years about state governments taking action to enforce immigration laws, state governments forced to do so because of the utter failure of our federal government to enforce the law. But here in the state of Illinois, it's a much different situation. In fact, as Christine Romans now reports, the entire state is something of a sanctuary for illegal aliens.


ROMANS (voice-over): Welcome to Illinois. A state the federal government says blocks the enforcement of immigration law. The Justice Department is suing Illinois for prohibiting employers from enrolling in E-Verify, a Web-based tool to verify legal status of new hires. Illinois is quote, "interfering with the federal government's approach to enforcing federal immigration laws, in a state with one of the largest populations of aliens not lawfully present in the United States."

The suit calls illegal immigration quote, "a substantial problem attributable to employers who violate federal law." But the legislature here overwhelmingly opposes E-Verify. The governor signed legislation passed by both chambers that prevents employers from using this tool. A spokeswoman says quote, "the governor agreed with the majority of legislators who said we should not be using a database riddled with errors." Department of Homeland Security says 93 percent of queries come back accurately within one day. The state says that's not good enough. Republican Congressman Peter Roskam says his state rewards illegal immigration.

REP. PETER ROSKAM (R), ILLINOIS: So here it is a tool that's out there, and we've got an administration in Springfield, Illinois, that's going to deny that to Illinois employers? I think that's the wrong thing to do.

ROMANS: Also wrong, Roskam says, is an initiative supported by the governor for driver's certificates for people in the country illegally. At the same time, Illinois Congressman Rahm Emanuel, a top Democratic strategist, has called illegal immigration the new third rail in American politics. Something no one wants to touch. Josh Hoyt is the director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights.

JOSHUA HOYT, COALITION FOR IMMIG. AND REF. RIGHTS: The immigration debate has descended into the realm for bigots and bullies and demagogues.

ROMANS: Hoyt says the path to citizenship for those here illegally must go hand in hand with enforcement and border security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that the position that Rahm Emanuel has been advocating within the Democratic Party is moral cowardice. What this country wants are solutions, not politicians that run and hide anytime Lou Dobbs calls them part of the amnesty lobby.

ROMANS: A spokesperson for Congressman Emanuel says quote, "neither Josh nor his comments are worthy of a response."


ROMANS: Here in Illinois, illegal immigration remains a contentious issue. As you can see, the federal government estimates that Illinois has the fourth largest population of illegal aliens in the country, Lou.

DOBBS: Incredible. Josh Hoyt, like nearly everyone else in the amnesty lobby, the open borders Lobby, surely he had to introduce race into the discussion. What are his thoughts?

ROMANS: Again, and again, we hear this. The bottom line is that this is racially motivated. It is fueling racial discontent. Lou, I want you to listen to an exchange I had on that score. DOBBS: OK.


ROMANS: Do you think that it is possible to be critical of illegal immigration and not be a bigot?

HOYT: There is a legitimate debate to be held about what should be done to end illegal immigration. We want to end illegal immigration. The question is how. But the debate, as it's being held, panders to those people who are bigots.


DOBBS: Bigots.

ROMANS: And he says that this program in particular panders to racial extremism.

DOBBS: Well Josh Hoyt, you know, what you pander to, partner, you are part of a coalition of the Catholic Church, corporate America, special socio-ethnocentric groups who are working to subvert the will of the majority of the people of this country. You're working with corporate America and some other misguided abject fools who believe that your reasons are superior to our democracy, our system of government.

And you, sir, are going to lose, and you're going to lose big to the American people on this issue. You had your run at introducing the concept of race instead of reason, introducing race instead of putting forward facts. Your day is done.

Christine Romans, thank you very much.

Let's take a look at some of your thoughts now. And let's turn to Larry in New Jersey.

"Lou, when I see the results from all the polls on illegal immigration, it seems pretty obvious what the American people want. Is our government blind, deaf and dumb? Have they seen their approval ratings lately? When are they going to wake up and listen to the people?" They're going to wake up and listen when you force them to. And with 2008 upon us, this is a great time to make your views known.

Ed in Oregon said, "Lou, there are two things that legal citizens can do to send a clear message to our government and the Mexican government. Register Independent and boycott Mexican goods until Mexico and the United States stop illegal immigration." That's a thought.

And Gerry and Bev in Illinois said, "My wife and I are now registered Independents thanks to you. It's never felt better to be free of the yoke of two-party politics. However, now where do we focus our efforts to make the changes in Washington we so desperately need? You've already begun and even if you don't run yourself, they say your guidance is desperately needed." Well we're going to offer you a little food for thought. And one of those things is registering as an Independent is just the beginning. Now, let's start taking over our local government, our local neighborhoods and communities and making sure they're working. The rest will fall in order.

We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit".

We're now less than 45 minutes away from tonight's CNN/YouTube GOP presidential debate in St. Petersburg, Florida; tonight, new allegations about the conduct of Rudy Giuliani when he was mayor of New York City. John King has a report now from St. Petersburg. John, what's going on?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, new questions being raised tonight about tens of thousands of costs that Mayor Giuliani had for travel from his security detail in his final couple of years as office as mayor. These questions are now being raised because this money was not put in the police department budget, but was instead allocated to very obscure agencies within the mayor's office like the New York City Loft Board or the Office for People with Disabilities.

Another reason questions are being raised about this accounting anyway and these expenses is because some of the trips were from New York City out to the Hamptons to visit his then girlfriend Judith Nathan at a time when Mayor Giuliani was still married to his second wife, Donna Hanover. He is now of course is married to Judith Nathan.

Now, the city comptroller said he found questionable accounting questionable expenses and started to do an audit, but he said this in a January 2002 letter to now Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

He said quote, "The mayor's office refused to provide my auditors with supporting documentation for payments. Therefore, they were unable to verify that these expenses were for legitimate or necessary purposes."

That letter went on to say that these types of expenses, again, which the comptroller called questionable, ballooned in Giuliani's final years in office. That letter said quote, "Specifically, the non-local travel related expense charges increased from $245,896 in fiscal year 2000 to $618,014 in fiscal year 2001; a 151 percent increase."

Now, Lou, we've been asking the former mayor's staff when he was mayor about this, his campaign staff about this all afternoon. They refused to go on camera. But Tony Carbonetti, who is now with the campaign, who was Giuliani's chief of staff when he was mayor did tell CNN this.

He said quote, "These were all legitimate expenses incurred while protecting the mayor, which is a 24/7 enterprise." Tony Carbonetti though, Lou, could not explain why charges that you would expect to be on the mayor's central budget or on the police department budget, were instead allocated to these obscure agencies.

They say in the Giuliani campaign they are trying to get those answers but they insist they weren't trying to hide anything at all, that the government records are available. And of course, now, we have them in this story. We should note it was first reported by the news organization Politico -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well good work by Politico, but why in the world is this only coming out now? And why is the timing so interesting on the day of a GOP presidential debate?

KING: That is an excellent question, because we are five weeks from the Iowa caucuses, but all I can tell you is the Politico says it received these records after filing a Freedom of Information Act request. When we saw the story, we filed a similar request and did get these same documents from the city government in the state of New York. If there are any other nefarious reasons beyond them, Lou, we certainly don't know about.

DOBBS: OK. Well you know, the great thing is politics of personal destruction are still alive and well in American presidential politics. I know it weighs on you and the rest of our colleagues in this network when we have to report this kind of thing because it is -- it's right on the edge both in terms of the motivation, what drives us to those records and really to be able to access within a great conviction the weight that should be given these charges.

KING: I don't know of any specific charges raised against the mayor, Lou. I would say that any of his spending practices as mayor is certainly fair game and that we requested these records only after this additional report, so there is no -- certainly no nefarious motivation on our part or on our part to somehow undermine Mayor Giuliani. Questions were raised about action, spending and accounting when he was the mayor of New York City. He has campaigned on that record and like any of the candidates he is going to have to explain his record.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And what was the implication that in all of this that somehow that the mayor, irrespective of what he is doing personally with whichever woman was in his life at the time, was still the mayor and entitled to security? One would assume that he would be and do you think the assumption would be incorrect?

KING: There is no question that the mayor gets security 24/7. The question being raised by the city comptroller himself, the man who audits the city financial account, is why is that not money not allocated to the mayor central budget, why is it not allocated to the police department, why is there not a line item that says security for the mayor? Why instead is an agency called the Loft Office, the Loft Board of New York City or the Office for People with Disabilities being charged for the mayor's security detail, gas for his SUV and things like that. Those were the questions raised by the auditors.

DOBBS: Raising also one last question, that's why the city comptroller didn't get the answers to those questions while Giuliani was in office as mayor. KING: That's certainly another question as well. This investigation, of course, the documents here are dated after Giuliani left office when those audits were underway. That is certainly a fair question as well.

DOBBS: All right. Well John, thank you very much. I know you'll keep us up-to-date as developments occur in this investigation. Thank you, sir. John King from St. Petersburg will be covering the presidential debate tonight. We look forward to that, John. Thank you.

Coming up here in just a little over half an hour, our question tonight on the poll, do you believe any of the Republican candidates in tonight's YouTube/ CNN debate will express something of a populist philosophy? Please yes or no. Cast your vote at We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.

Coming up next, business interests fighting a state government's move to punish employers, illegal employers of illegal aliens. Why don't they want the state government to follow the law? We'll have a special report. And Congressman Luis Gutierrez and I have never seen eye-to-eye on the illegal immigration crisis, the border security. He joins me next. He will give me instruction. I will listen. We will continue to disagree. But it's always good to talk with him. And we'll also perhaps learn something.

Stay with us. We'll be right back.


DOBBS: Business interests in Arizona tonight are fighting a state law that would punish employers, illegal employers of illegal aliens. That state law requires companies in Arizona to use a federal system to check eligibility of new employees. But as the deadline nears, thousands of Arizona businesses apparently are refusing to enroll. Casey Wian has our report.


CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Beginning January 1st, Arizona employers with illegal alien workers risk losing their business licenses. A new law requires businesses to enroll in the federal government's E-Verify system, which employers use to determine if a potential hire is a legally authorized worker. But Arizona employers are suing to block the law, claiming E-Verify is flawed.

Now attorneys for the businesses are recommending that companies wait until the last few weeks of this year to enroll in E-Verify. "The Arizona Republic" reports quote, "What's more, lawyers are telling employers to sign up en masse, in part to test the system's capacity and cast doubt on its effectiveness at a time when some lawmakers in Congress are pushing to expand E-Verify to all states."

The paper quotes employer attorney Julie Pace saying, "If you have 100,000 people signing up in December, how are they going to handle it? State Representative Russell Pearce sponsored Arizona's employer sanctions law.

RUSSELL PEARCE (R), ARIZONA STATE LEGISLATURE: Clearly, these folks are out of control. They're doing everything they can to try to get the law not to go into effect. It is bad advice. These attorneys are putting these employers at risk. It's the law.

WIAN: Pace told LOU DOBBS TONIGHT it's not the intention of her law firm to overwhelm the E-Verify system and its personnel with a flurry of last-minute applications. Pace says the firm has advised employers to wait to enroll until after a judge rules on legal challenges to the law. The ruling is expected early next month. David Selden is Pace's partner.

DAVID SELDEN, EMPLOYER ATTORNEY: Obviously we are preaching compliance and unless and until the law is stricken as unconstitutional, businesses have to be prepared to attempt to attempt to comply with it. But the very dangerous thing for it and what's harmful for businesses is that you can have a business where the very existence of the business is at risk.

WIAN: Sponsors of the Employer Sanctions Law say they've been assured by the Department of Homeland Security that E-Verify is fully prepared to enroll Arizona's more than 100,000 businesses.


WIAN: Supporters of the law say they are confident the judge will rule in their favor. What they're most worried about is an immediate appeal by the Arizona business lobby to the Ninth Circuit in San Francisco, where illegal rulings are often, charitably put, highly unpredictable, Lou.

DOBBS: Well the very fact that those attorneys and advising the businesses of the state of Arizona, it's not in the spirit of either an attorney or a court officer to make such a -- take such a position, it seems to me. And if this is an example of the kind of leadership on the part of the businesses of the state of Arizona, the people in Arizona, I mean I can't even imagine the outrage it must feel toward those businesses. Who in the world do those businesses -- what is the Chamber of the Commerce in the state of Arizona saying, what is the business lobby saying, and do they have no shame?

WIAN: Apparently not, Lou. The business lobby is clearly very worried about the loss of employees, because so many businesses in Arizona in construction, in agriculture, hire illegal aliens. And they're very worried about the impact of their businesses. They're also worried that some employers are using the E-Verify system in ways in which for now it's not intended and that is to check the legal status of current workers, not just new hires. They've got a lot of objections to this law and they're doing everything they can to stop it from taking effect in just a little over a month, Lou.

DOBBS: Do those businesses have any concept of what could happen with the legal citizens of the state of Arizona? They're talking about the loss of illegal labor in their state. What about the loss of those legal citizens who buy and -- products and services and who work in those industries?

WIAN: Well, I haven't talked to them about that specifically, but one of the complaints that the businesses do have about this law is that some legal workers may be impacted by the use of E-Verify because the Social Security database does contain some significant errors, Lou.

DOBBS: Casey Wian, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Coming up next, a lawmaker who's pushing an open border amnesty agenda with legislation to give citizenship to millions of illegal aliens and one of our most decorated military commanders gives us his assessment of Pentagon plans to keep tens of thousands of our troops in Iraq indefinitely.

Republican presidential candidates squaring off tonight in less than 30 minutes in Florida for the CNN You Tube republican presidential debate. We're coming right back.


DOBBS: One of Illinois's leading congressman, Congressman Luis Gutierrez, is the chairman of the Democratic Caucus Immigration Task Force. He's also author of legislation that would put millions of illegal aliens on a path to citizenship. And we're pleased to have Congressman Gutierrez with us here tonight. Good to be in your district, your home city.


DOBBS: It's great to be here. Let's start with your legislation, along With Congressman Flake. You've got, what, 79 sponsors right now in the house. Do you believe it's going to see the light of day? Is it going to be passed?

GUTIERREZ: I think it's necessary that the democratic congress, this democratically controlled congress take up the legislation to show the courage and to show the fortitude that it should on such a vital and important issue as comprehensive immigration reform. I don't know if they're going to show that kind of courage. I mean, we ran saying we would bring about comprehensive immigration reform. We are the majority. We shouldn't wait for the minority. We should act.

DOBBS: The democratic leadership, let's be honest, in both the house and senate absolutely looked like a pack of fools. They haven't done anything. Your poll ratings in both the house and the senate are devastatingly low, historic low levels. It's just a little over a year ago that that leadership was voted in by the people. It's got to be of great concern to you guys to see the democratic leadership on the senate immigration reform, twice in a row, to lose that vote with a republican president pushing it. What's the point? At what point does the Democratic Party in this country understand the American people won't stand for amnesty?

GUTIERREZ: Here's what I think. I think that in the senate, they have attempted it twice. One time it did pass. The house failed to act when the republicans --

DOBBS: The house bill.

GUTIERREZ: Yeah, the house bill.

DOBBS: The senate --

GUTIERREZ: The senate did approve comprehensive immigration reform when the democrats were in charge in the last congress. In this congress, they failed to acquire the 60 necessary votes. But I will say that 80% of the democrats in the democratic majority in the senate did vote for comprehensive immigration reform. It was the failure of the president and republicans to join them --

DOBBS: What about the will of the majority in this country, Congressman? Why is it the democratic leadership, these democratic presidential candidates, every one of them, pushing comprehensive immigration reform which your office said would be a disaster? You continue to push for it as if the American people don't mean a damn thing to you. What happened to the idea of the majority rules in this country?

GUTIERREZ: I think that if you look at poll after poll, when the American people have spoken, they believe in comprehensive immigration reform.

DOBBS: You're not looking at --

GUTIERREZ: Well, I -- poll after poll has indicated that when you address the American people and you ask them what do you want done, they say we want our borders secure, we want internal security, and checks, and you ask them, should there be a pathway for legalization for those that are already here spending a number of years and haven't committed any other crime, pay a penalty, learn English, get to the back of the line, most of the American people say that sounds like a reasonable approach. As a matter of fact, Lou, the enforcement measures have been so great during the last year, that this past year 270,000 people were deported from the United States. That's an increase of 120,000 people from last year. But even at that rate, Lou, it will take 40 years to deport 12 million people.

DOBBS: That really isn't an issue, and you know that. Come on. Nobody's calling for deportation of 20 million illegal aliens.

GUTIERREZ: Well, yes, they are calling for it.

DOBBS: Who? Name one person.

GUTIERREZ: Tancredo.

DOBBS: He's calling for it?

GUTIERREZ: He's calling for their massive deportation. So is Bilbray and so are many others in the congress of the United States. I didn't make that up. That's what they think should happen. The problem is they have never come forward with a plan that would actually --

DOBBS: Why is it the democrats can't see their way to saying we're going to secure the borders and ports of this country first and we're going to take control of those borders and ports so we can control immigration, so if we were to reform immigration, which we know is a sham in every effort put forth so far, we'll reserve yours, we'll reserve yours, why not secure those borders and put the discussion of immigration law reform on the table and take care of the nation's business first?

GUTIERREZ: Because that's what where we disagree.

DOBBS: Okay. But why?

GUTIERREZ: I'm going to answer that question. What we disagree on is not whether we should have secure borders. Not whether we should have a biometric system. Not whether my social security card, my dad's social security card, and my grandfather's social security is using the same technology, we should use the biometric system --

DOBBS: Why the biometrics?

GUTIERREZ: That is in my bill. When you introduce me today --

DOBBS: The question is this, congressman --


DOBBS: I get to ask the questions.

GUTIERREZ: It's America's airwaves.

DOBBS: In point in fact, the American people can be the arbiters. I asked a question.

GUTIERREZ: I'm trying to answer it.

DOBBS: I asked you, why will you not secure our borders and our ports as a condition precedent to immigration reform law?

GUTIERREZ: Because it will fail if that's all you do. Because Lou, you will still have 12 million people in this country, we don't know where they live, we don't know where they bank, we don't have any vital information on them. You have 12 million people walking around this country and you feel secure without knowing who they are? Without having their fingerprints? Without having --

DOBBS: Thanks to you --

GUTIERREZ: A process so we can identify who they are? I think that's vitally important. And we know if you deported 12 million people tomorrow and they vanished from the United States of America, it would cripple certain sectors of our economy.

DOBBS: Name one.

GUTIERREZ: Agriculture.

DOBBS: It would not. It won't even begin to.

GUTIERREZ: Our own department of agriculture, our own department of labor, our undocumented workers this country --

DOBBS: Wouldn't even begin to.

GUTIERREZ: It would, Lou. Okay. But here's the point.

DOBBS: What would happen if -- we have seven minutes, Congressman. Give me your best shot.

GUTIERREZ: I'm going to give you the best shot. When you introduced me today, you introduced me very kindly. And I appreciate that. But it was a little incorrect in that you said, and here's Luis Gutierrez who wants all the undocumented workers to have a pathway to citizenship. That's true. But the first 180 pages of my legislation is about border security, internal security. As a matter of fact, when Flake and I introduced that legislation, it has more security measures than the Heath Shuler proposal currently before the congress of the United States. We're all for security. So our difference is, how do you piece this together. Not what the pieces are.

DOBBS: And my answer, Congressman is, you're over complicating a straightforward issue. Secure our borders, secure our ports. Just for the following reasons, because that southern border is the principal source of methamphetamines, cocaine, heroin, and marijuana into this country. It would be a major step toward ending the war on drugs. And number two, to stop illegal immigration. Number three, we're now six years past September 11th and no one in this congress and this administration can possibly stand before the American people and rationalize the fact that 95% of the cargo entering this country is not inspected, that we still have a border in which millions of people are crossing that border.

GUTIERREZ: And we have -- and the issue is that half of the undocumented workers in the United States of America did not cross that border.

DOBBS: Forty percent.

GUTIERREZ: But you want to focus simply on the border. So if we secured the border --

DOBBS: I said ports.

GUTIERREZ: You said ports and borders.

DOBBS: Borders.

GUTIERREZ: No, no, you always talk about Mexican border.

DOBBS: No ...

GUTIERREZ: You never speak about the Canadian border. You haven't spoken about the Canadian border during this conversation. It's always Mexico and drugs.

DOBBS: Wait, use the ...

GUTIERREZ: I didn't make that.

DOBBS: Come on. Get in the game.

GUTIERREZ: No, I won't.

DOBBS: Come on. Your friend Josh Hoyt --


DOBBS: Come on.


DOBBS: Just give me one shot.

GUTIERREZ: This is too serious an issue for the American people, for me, to use --

DOBBS: Forget the nonsense and get to the American people.

GUTIERREZ: Here you go again, calling me socioethnocentric ...

DOBBS: Absolutely. Can I ask you a question? Let me ask you a question.

GUTIERREZ: You're the one that keeps mentioning Mexico.

DOBBS: Let me ask you a question.

GUTIERREZ: You here on this program say that 40% of the undocumented workers did not cross that border. Yet you never emphasize what we need to do in order to control them. I do have that in my legislation.

DOBBS: Here we go. The reason I focus on Mexico is more than 60% of the illegal aliens in this country are from Mexico. The reason I focus on the border with Mexico is because it is the principle source of methamphetamines, heroin, cocaine, and marijuana into this country. And you find that --

GUTIERREZ: No, I find it --

DOBBS: I find it amazing that you could possibly ignore it.

GUTIERREZ: I ask the American people, I hope you Tivoed this, because I never raised the issue of race here whatsoever.

DOBBS: No, I'm asking you --

GUTIERREZ: I didn't do it here. Nor will I ever.

DOBBS: You're very kind. GUTIERREZ: Thank you.

DOBBS: And you're almost alone amongst the open borders amnesty state lobby.

GUTIERREZ: Thank you.

DOBBS: Coming up next, the liberal "New York Times" has declared Lou Dobbs is winning. Congressman Gutierrez would agree. But that's not all. I'll have something to say about that as well.

Stay with us. We'll be right back.


DOBBS: Is the Pentagon making plans to keep as many as 50,000 of our troops in Iraq indefinitely? General David Grange joins me now, one of the country's most decorated former military commanders. Good to have you with us. What do you think of that Pentagon plan?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it's going to be very similar to what happened in Korea and World War II half a century ago and I think the country has to adjust to the fact that we're going to have troops on the line in a different part of the world for a long time. In this case, the Middle East.

DOBBS: You know, at the same time, I look at those troops in South Korea, I look at those troops in Germany, what in the world are we doing? The European Union is one of the great wealthy centers of this planet. These troops, I will defer to your judgment, but those troops sitting along the DMZ, I don't know how effective they would be. I doubt they would be very effective. They're certainly vulnerable to North Korean attack. Why in the world don't we bring those people back? Why don't we try looking at things differently in this country?

GRANGE: As you know, we are bringing back the troops in Europe.

DOBBS: Right.

GRANGE: It's going to be very low. The Germans are very upset about that, because the Americans became a very much a part of the social fabric of Germany during those tours.

DOBBS: It's a lot of money.

GRANGE: It cost us a lot of money. Now in Korea and I served on the line on a DMZ. In fact, my wife was also in Korea at the same time. And I had a son born over there in an American hospital. They're in a tough position if there's a fight. There's a North Korean army. There's a very powerful army but they are a deterrent.

DOBBS: The point being that the legacy about our attitude of leaving troops around the world because of conflicts is, for me, it's an idea whose time has passed. The idea of leaving those troops in Iraq, we have a limited amount of time in which to be successful. It appears that General Petraeus and our troops are being successful over the course of the past 90 days. Is it in your judgment likely that we can project that success across the next year, and come to a, what we could at least label as a victory against the insurgency and stabilize Iraq?

GRANGE: I believe so. But under several conditions. One, the political process, as you know, is the weak link in the whole thing. The military, the people themselves, are doing a great job. That's going to happen. The footprint of the American military is going to change. The Iraqis will continue to be trained and get better every month, every year. We're going to be there for a while, but in a different posture.

DOBBS: And we want to say General Granger is not only one of the most heroic military commanders, he's also the CEO of the McCormack Foundation. We are broadcasting to you tonight from a very special place, for us as well as General Grange and all the citizens of Chicago, frankly, all the citizens from the country, from the McCormack Tribune Freedom Museum, a wonderful display, and highlighted one of our very favorite, among all of the bill of rights, the first amendment. Tell us a little bit about it real quick, if you could.

GRANGE: Well the Freedom Museum is based on freedom. We had to focus on a specific area because freedom is a very broad topic, and that's the first amendment. The five freedoms are the first amendment. We ran a survey. We know that only one out of four Americans know more than one of those five freedoms, which is a civic education shortfall in this nation. And so we're proud to support and serve the citizenry in educating people with reference to the first amendment.

DOBBS: General Grange, you and your folks have done a wonderful job here. I encourage everyone, particularly the young people, to come here. And see a wonderful tribute to the freedoms here at the McCormack Tribune Freedom Museum. General Grange, I know you busted everything to get it done and to build it. It's a wonderful tribute to the country and to your organization. Thank you very much.

GRANGE: Thank you, Lou. We have a great staff.

DOBBS: Outstanding.

Coming up next, the "New York Times" says I'm winning. I'll have a few words about that. Yes, I'm winning, but why does "The Times" insist on losing. Three top political analysts join me. We'll be previewing tonight's CNN You Tube republican presidential debate coming up next. Stay with us.


DOBBS: "New York Times" columnist David Brooks wrote a piece entitled "Lou Dobbs is Winning, Special Interest, Corporate Supremacists, And Special Interests," I must be running scared to find out I'm winning. They should be scared of independent voters and what I hope will be an outright revolt against the political orthodoxy in faith based economics of both partisan political parties, democrat and republican. Those elites appear terrified of truth and me. Imagine that. None other than the house organ of the country's liberal establishment, "The New York Times," allowing one of the columnists to declare that Lou Dobbs is Winning." In a remarkable admission, columnist David Brooks admits "Lou Dobbs is winning, he's not winning personally. He's not going to start winning presidential awards." Oh, my god, I won't be able to have a presidential award? But his message is winning. And that, I hope, translates to a win for all of us. Hallelujah.

But wait, Brooks and his fellow elitists can't quite admit reality when it's abundantly clear to everyone that their bankrupt ideas have failed, that the orthodoxy is not getting it done, and in fact, are contributing to the destruction of what's left of our middle class and the promise of this great nation for millions of Americans. Corporatists, free traders, illegal aliens, open borders, amnesty advocates simply don't care about the quality of life for millions and millions of working men and women, our middle class in this country and those who aspire to it.

Those elites have bribed, intimidated political leaders into silence, spending $2 million on lobbying, even outright betrayal of working men and women and their families, and of course, rejecting the rule of the majority in favor of the elites who have, through some endowment of DNA, a superior view to all of the people of this country and all of it in the name of faith-based economics, so called free trade policies and of course amnesty, no matter what the will of the people.

I'm winning, yes, David Brooks, because I'm trying to talk straight, I'm trying to be honest with reason, while Mr. Brooks and some of his friends are not quite doing that. A rising number of Americans are declaring their independence from political orthodoxies of the left and the right, republican and democratic partisanship and they're standing up for a better America serving all of us of whatever race, color, creed, rejecting ideology and rejecting nonsense like questions over, well, open borders, amnesty, and instead focusing perhaps on the quality of life for millions of Americans, including future generations.

Well, the presidential candidates tonight are expected to throw more mud in a television advertising blitz to influence the first caucuses and then primary voters. Campbell Brown, investigating negative campaign advertising, she's joining us now with her first special. Campbell, what can we expect? I can't believe the mud slinging.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, never, never. Well Lou, what we've done is we put together an hour that looks at sort of the evolution of the attack ad, going back to some of the most devastating attacks of all time and what we do expect in 2008. We've got one of the ad makers who takes us through the anatomy of an attack and walks us through some of the techniques they use to put these things together. But we're also going behind the scenes with the people and the groups who are really driving this process now. It's much less about the candidates and the political parties now, and a lot more about independent groups, 527s, who are the most influential. And seem to be doing the most damage. So we'll have again that at 11:00 eastern time after the debate. Lou?

DOBBS: Campbell Brown, at 11:00 eastern tonight with that special. Thank you very much, Campbell. Look forward to it.

And joining me now to take a look at the upcoming republican presidential debate, tonight's CNN You Tube debate, three of the best political analysts in the country. Joining us tonight from New York, Republican strategist, Ed Rollins, Ed also former White House political director; Michael Goodwin, Pulitzer Price winning columnist "New York Daily News;" Democratic strategist Hank Sheinkopf. Hank, you seem to have a night off on this. You don't have a dog in this hunt. What do you make of the allegations coming as they do today against Rudy Giuliani?

HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, frankly, he's got to take care of them very quickly or they're going to get out of control. After all, he's still in the lead. When you're in the lead, it's fair to take shots. Deal with the problems and answer the questions and move forward. Or if they're true, prepare to bail.

DOBBS: Michael Goodman, what do you make of it?

MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well, the interesting question that I think we all have is, why was the money hidden? It seems to be on its face a legitimate expense. The mayor gets 24-hour police protection, his entire family does. Let's assume it is for the sake of argument legitimate. Why was it hidden? Why was it not allocated in the way the other money was? That's the question. Perhaps they were trying to hide it from the press. The mayor was going through his divorce at that time, political opponents, who knows. That's what we have to find out. I suspect his opponents tonight will ask that question.

DOBBS: Ed Rollins, your advice to Rudy Giuliani?

ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Get it out. You know, I think the bottom line is these are the kinds of things that hurt you. Ordinary people can understand it. Why are they paying for his wife to have protection in L.A. and paying for his girlfriend to have protection going to the Hamptons. You can't run as a multi-family candidate. And obviously that's one of the problems Rudy Giuliani has.

DOBBS: Wait a minute --

ROLLINS: The critical thing tonight --

DOBBS: Are you sure you can't?

ROLLINS: With the exception of Romney and Huckabee and a couple of others. I think the critical thing is one guy is on the move and the others are sort of sliding back a couple of weeks. Mike Huckabee has had a good couple weeks. This is the first debate he's going to have where people are going to be looking at him in the first tier. Obviously, Romney and Giuliani may have to turn their guns toward him a bit. DOBBS: Do you think there will be, Michael Goodwin, any discussion about communist China rebuffing the Kitty Hawk Task Force from Hong Kong and denying two of our mine sweepers safe harbor in a storm?

GOODWIN: It will be interesting to see if that comes in through any of the You Tube questions that the viewers post. Or if the CNN anchors, if they work that in as a moderator. It should be a question ...

DOBBS: And Anderson Cooper, we should point, is the moderator tonight of the debate.

GOODWIN: Right. And it really is an important issue. And Gates has been to China. Now, obviously the Chinese are upset about something. They did it for some reason. Our Pentagon doesn't seem to know the reason yet. Obviously it's the kind of thing that presidential candidates should deal with.

DOBBS: Illegal immigration, Rahm Emanuel being attacked by someone within his party and certainly the open borders amnesty crowd for saying that illegal immigration is a third rail of American politics. Your reaction.

SHEINKOPF: Lou on this program some weeks back we called it the hot pot where if you touched it, your hand would sting. The facts are, no one's going to talk about it in real terms. Why? Because you can't win votes when you talk about it and you can only lose them.

DOBBS: Can the democratic presidential candidate whomever is selected by the party in the primaries succeed in the general election supporting as they all do comprehensive immigration reform?

ROLLINS: You can't talk about open borders. Once the concept becomes that there's no restrictions whatever on anybody coming across, I think that's a death nail for any candidate, democratic or republican.

SHEINKOPF: We saw just briefly when Hillary Clinton seemed to support drivers' licenses for illegal aliens, how that backfired on her. Again, I remember in New York a very blue state, 75% opposed to it here. It's clearly an issue across the country.

DOBBS: Hank Sheinkopf, thank you very much. Michael Goodwin, Ed Rollins, we thank you very much. We're getting ready for the GOP presidential debate, the CNN You Tube debate coming right up.

Our poll results, 78 percent of you replied that you do not believe the republican candidates in tonight's debate will express a populist philosophy.

We thank you for being with us tonight. I hope you're wrong.

The CNN You Tube debate is beginning right now. Thanks for watching. Good night from Chicago.