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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Credit Card Companies Hike Interest Rates Without Warning
Aired December 04, 2007 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf.
Outraged Americans today venting their anger at credit card companies for hiking interest rates without either warning or clear notice, consumers telling Senate investigators their interest rates have been raised by the credit card companies even though they are paying their bills on time. It could be happening to you. Another example of abusive and confusing credit card practices driving many consumers deeper and deeper into debt. We'll have that report, all the day's news and much more, straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Tuesday, December 4. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
Just one day after a key intelligence report said the nature of Iran's threat has changed the president all but dismissed that report, saying nothing has changed. And President Bush called upon U.S. allies to keep the pressure on Iran. Ed Henry has our report tonight from the White House. Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, at a press conference here at the White House today, the president was hit with a series of questions, questions of credibility, but Mr. Bush made clear, he's not backing down on Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): Classic President Bush. Confronted with new facts on Iran, he insisted the national intelligence estimate changes nothing.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the N.I. makes it clear that Iran needs to be taken seriously as a threat to peace. My opinion hasn't changed.
HENRY: But the intelligence has changed. With the president's own administration now declaring Iran suspended its nuclear weapons program four years ago. Mr. Bush called that a great discovery. But warned Iran could restart the program at any time.
BUSH: Iran was dangerous. Iran is dangerous. And Iran will be dangerous if they have the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. HENRY: The president was hit with a barrage of questions about how U.S. credibility was damaged by hyped intelligence before the war in Iraq and whether he made the same mistake with Iran in October.
BUSH: And if you are interested in avoiding World War III.
HENRY: Mr. Bush insisted he made that comment before he learned of the new report, though he acknowledged his director of national intelligence gave him an inkling something was up last summer.
BUSH: I was made of the NIE last week. In August I think it was John -- Mike McConnell came in and said we have some new information. He didn't tell me what the information was. He did tell me it was going to take awhile to analyze.
HENRY: But Senator Joe Biden, a Democratic presidential candidate, said he refuses to believe the president got tipped off in August, and didn't follow up until last week. "If that's true, Biden told reporters, he's one of the most incompetent presidents in modern American history."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, White House officials dismiss that as presidential posturing by Biden, but the fact is this White House is concerned about instability in the Mideast. White House officials just confirming moments ago that Mr. Bush will travel to the Mideast in early January to try and help seal a peace deal in his final year in office. Lou?
DOBBS: Well, Ed, presidential politics aside, for crying out loud, if the president's security advisers, national security advisers are telling them that they have new information on Iran, which is the focal point of this administration's concern in the Middle East next to, of course, Afghanistan and Iraq, why in the world would the president not say to that adviser, you have new information, is there something you would like to tell me now?
HENRY: That is the question the president is eventually going to have to answer. I have spoken to some intelligence officials who say that on one hand, the president understandably needed some time from his advisers to check and recheck this intelligence. As you know, there have been many intelligence mistakes before.
And they wanted to be certain that this time the assessment was right, but on the other hand, why the president didn't push more between August and last week to get more details before he went out there and talked about World War III and other things, a major question of credibility looming over this president, Lou.
DOBBS: There is the issue, of course, why the president would not ask more directly and far sooner as you suggest. Why in the world, knowing the sensitivity of the failure of all of the intelligence agencies in this government, going into the war in Iraq, would not the director of national intelligence, would not any of the president's national security advisers including Stephen Hadley say to the president that this is where we are in the process, as this NIE is being developed, and this is what you should know, Mr. President.
HENRY: Absolutely. That question, absolutely, Lou, why that did not happen, again, is a major question looming over this president. There was a wide gap there between the summer and now, here in the fall-winter, where they have finally are making this assessment public, but there is a lot going on behind the scenes and why there wasn't more digging and why that did not affect some of the president's and the vice president's public comments is a big question, Lou.
DOBBS: One would believe that the American people could be forgiven, if they have run out of patience with this administration and its excuses on intelligence and a president who is not accepting or assimilating that intelligence brought to him by U.S. intelligence agencies and then acting on it. Ed Henry reporting from the White House, thank you, sir.
HENRY: Thank you.
DOBBS: Iran today said the results of U.S. intelligence were no surprise. Iranian officials have asserted they are not developing nuclear weapons. They will, they say, continue their nuclear development program which is, they maintain, for civilian purposes only. Aneesh Raman is in Tehran and has our report tonight -- Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, good evening. It was not surprisingly with open arms that Iran welcomed this report. The only high official we heard from today was the country's foreign minister, who welcomed a correction, in his words, in the U.S. intelligence estimate of Iran's intention over its nuclear program.
Now what happens next is key. The vast majority of Iranians do want this issue resolved peacefully. The problem is President Bush again today reiterated a key thing for Iranians. They will not talk with the Iranian regime unless they first suspend their nuclear program. Iran has said it won't do that as a precondition for talks.
Another part of this is Iran's president, who consistently makes controversial statements, leading to the fear in the West that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapon. There's growing dissent within Iran about the president, about Ahmadinejad's strategy, and it seems more and more this issue is about two presidents who simply will not budge. Lou?
DOBBS: Aneesh Raman from Tehran.
Turning now to the war in Iraq; insurgents there have killed another of our troops. The soldier was killed by an explosion in the Anbar province. Two of our troops have been killed so far this month; 37 were killed in November; 3,883 of our troops have been killed since the war began; 28,629 of our troops wounded; 12,817 of them seriously.
President Bush today pounded congressional Democrats for not approving spending bills and funding for the conduct of the war. The penalty also warned the Democratic leadership in Congress that he holds the veto pen and will use it. Jessica Yellin has our report from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Listen, and you might wonder, where is the love?
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: The last seven years, the president is stubborn and unwilling to work with us on anything.
BUSH: The Democrats in Congress and the House and Senate need to work out their differences before they come to the White House.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: What does he have to show for his presidency? He's the president of the United States, already talking about his library. What is he going to have in the library? A tax cut for the wealthiest people in the country at the expense of the middle class and a war without end?
YELLIN: There's always partisanship in Washington. But some observers say it hasn't been this bad since the nation's leaders resolved their differences with duels. Jason Grumet runs a group dedicated to breaking the partisan stalemate in Washington.
JASON GRUMET, PRES., BIPARTISAN POLICY CENTER: Both parties have an agenda to not let anyone accomplish anything. We've become I think to this that the way to win elections is to stop the party in charge from getting anything done and that's different.
YELLIN: For example, 11 spending bills are stalled in Congress and have been for months. The president says they cost too much and he's threatening to veto most of them. Democrats say they fund important priorities, the current disagreement, two percent of the total package, and neither side will compromise.
On children's health insurance, the farm bill, the energy bill, and the terrorist surveillance bill either the Democrats and the president refuse to negotiate or Republicans and Democrats can't come to terms, and they're setting records for obstruction and delay. But maybe the politicians aren't the only ones to blame.
GRUMET: The media also plays a role in this process. There's not a lot of coverage for members of Congress who come together and strike thoughtful agreements. There is a lot of coverage when people shout at each other.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN: And that might be a fair point, Lou, I have to say, but I also think that if Congress did get some of these bills done before they go home, they would get plenty of media coverage for that, too. Lou?
DOBBS: Well Jessica, let me say to the gentleman, he couldn't be more wrong. The fact of the matter is these two political parties, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are led by, frankly, nincompoops who have seemingly no understanding of the requirements of leadership, nor the needs, and the requirements of the American people. I don't know who they're representing or who they say they're representing this week, but the reality is they're not representing the American people in nearly all legislative initiatives.
YELLIN: Well they know that their poll numbers reflect that most Americans feel disappointed, gravely disappointed in their work, and there is a sense of urgency here, I will say, for these folks to get something significant done before they go home. They know their voters expect it of them.
DOBBS: The voters may expect it. I don't think, however, Jessica, there would be a great debate in this country about whether this leadership, Democratic and Republican, in Washington, is capable of great things. Jessica, thank you very much; Jessica Yellin from Capitol Hill.
Coming up here next, desperate consumers tell senators they're the victims of unfair practices by credit card companies, practices that in fact predatory, as Bill Tucker will be reporting with that story. Bill?
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, if you think paying your bills on time, meeting the minimum payment will keep your interest below 20 percent, you're wrong. We'll have that story coming up next, Lou.
DOBBS: Do you remember, Bill, when 20 percent was what a loan shark charged?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Absolutely. Look forward to the report.
Also a rare agreement between the White House and Congress -- how about that -- to build up the Food and Drug Administration to protect American consumers. What took them so long and why now? We'll have that report.
And the crisis caused by efforts of state governments to give away illegal alien drivers' licenses, states struggling to find a way out of the mess, the federal government, just struggling.
We'll have the story and much more straight ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Credit card holders in this country, many of them, are simply being screwed by credit card companies. And many of those holders are simply furious about the latest predatory and unfair practices by banks and financial institutions. Consumers telling irate lawmakers on Capitol Hill today how credit card holders in good standing are being hit by massive interest rate increases. Bill Tucker now reports on the credit card crisis that is emptying the pocketbooks of consumers and lining the profits of financial institutions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): The credit card industry was taken to task by senators for the way it extends credit and then raises interest rates on that debt.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: This goes to fundamental fairness. This -- these folks have made their payments on time regularly to you, at least in the reasonable past. They've done it and suddenly they are given an increase.
TUCKER: Bonnie Rushing suffered when Bank of America jacked up her rate from 7.9 percent to 23 percent.
BONNIE RUSHING, BANK OF AMERICA CARDHOLDER: When you're faced with having made $150 pays well on one credit card and then all of a sudden, you are making a $674 payment on a credit card, look how that will impact the rest of how I make my payments.
TUCKER: Unbeknownst to her, her rate and her minimum payment rose when she opened two store credit cards to get a promotional discount.
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: They are really foisting in some ways debt on the middle class in this country, and then, saying, hey, by the way, because you've got all this debt, we're going to raise your interest rates.
TUCKER: Discover and Bank of America didn't hesitate to defend the practice.
BRUCE HAMMONDS, PRES., BANK OF AMERICA CARD SVCS.: We have a responsibility for the safety and soundness of the institution to make sure that we're doing the right thing from a credit standpoint for the institution, for our customers, and for our shareholders.
TUCKER: So instead of cutting off credit, they raise rates.
TRAVIS PLUNKETT, CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA: They sit at a hearing on Capitol Hill and they say, oh, this is all very exact. This is essentially a science. It's not a science, it's an art. And what we saw today was that some companies are still using traps and tricks.
TUCKER: Such as charging fees to pay over the telephone or Internet, retroactive rate hikes on existing debt, multiple charges for exceeding credit limits.
SEN. NORMAN COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: Folks out there are actually feeling ambushed. They feel like they're not getting sufficient notice of interest rate increases and credit card companies need to do a better job here.
TUCKER: Senator Levin has a bill pending that would end most of those practices. (END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now today's hearing ended with an admission from Senator Levin that the credit card companies can and should do better, and if they don't, Congress will force them to do so. Lou, one of the things they didn't talk about today were those usury rates, how common it is to see interest rates at 25, 30, 35 percent, and I did ask Senator McCaskill about that, and she said the point of the hearing today was really to look at what prompts these jumps to those high interest rates, and she admitted that those rates are a problem.
DOBBS: Well, I believe that everyone watching this broadcast, for example, should be very grateful Senator McCaskill, Senator Levin, Senator Coleman in Minnesota and others who are taking this issue up. And I believe everyone watching this broadcast tonight, I would love it if you would ask one question of yourself and this is why in the world are you putting up with these kinds of rates?
And is that is responsible -- you know we heard the gentleman, the credit card, saying he has got a responsibility to the institution, well, you got a responsibility to come back at these people full blown. I cannot believe that the attorney generals of this state, the consumer advocate groups will be putting up with this kind of nonsense. And I think everyone should be asking themselves, why is it that main stream media is not focusing on the predatory practices, and I'm saying this, MasterCard, Visa, all of you, why in the world are you doing this?
And there's only one answer; because you can get away with it. You know it's not the right thing to do. You know that these rates are usurious, and you should be ashamed of yourselves, and American consumers should be protecting themselves from this, period. Why in the world isn't mainstream media focusing on this, naming names, naming these credit card companies, naming these banks, like Bank of America and others.
TUCKER: I don't know. Fortunately on this broadcast, Lou, we've answered that question, by putting a spotlight on it and naming those institutions.
DOBBS: And I employ our colleagues in this business who pride yourselves, and correctly, in many cases, on your ability to dig to the heart of an issue. This is one that millions and millions and millions of Americans deserve an answer. And, we're going to continue to focus on it, and I home that our colleagues in this craft will join us, because this is absolutely a disgusting and I believe unprincipled business practice on the part of financial institutions, particularly the credit card companies.
Bill Tucker, thank you very much and our hats off to Congress for beginning to look into this, hopefully with some result.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is do you believe credit card companies should be allowed to raise your interest rates even when you've been a good customer and paying your bills on time? Yes or no. We would love to hear your answer to this one. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
Let's take a look now at some of your thoughts. Jim in Georgia wrote in to say, "When is just one of those idiots running for president going to realize the middle class people are worried about debt, trade and citizenship? Don't they care about our children and grandchildren?"
Well, just listen to what they're saying. Unfortunately, they're not saying much about, for example, the fact that we have $50 trillion in un-funded liabilities, $9 trillion national debt, a $6 trillion trade debt that's rising faster than our national debt. Unfortunately the debate is not forming around many of those issues that will be critically important to our children.
Julie in New York, "Just adding my two cents, Lou. I'm changing my voter registration from Republican to Independent. I'm sick of both parties and their handling of this country or mishandling, I should say. I'm glad you're here to tell it like it is."
And Rick in Colorado, "Lou, we Independents need a candidate. Come on, Lou, picture it. 'Live from the White House, Lou Dobbs is next'. How sweet is that?"
Well, part of it would be kind of sweet, I think, the part about just being from the White House and live. We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit".
If you happen to buy it, you might want to buy a couple of copies for a couple of senators and congressmen, maybe send one to the White House to a few other folks and for sure, think about registering as an Independent. I employ you.
Up next, lawmakers questioning the Food and Drug Administration's ability to protect our food supply. There's no question, they're not doing it.
And new developments in the Mitt Romney presidential campaign, did he employ illegal aliens and what is he doing about it?
And the mayor of Phoenix reversing his long-held position on illegal immigration in his city, he joins us here next. Stay with us. It's quite a revelation.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: American consumers understandably are losing confidence in the safety of our food supply, after a rash of tainted food scandals. Today, lawmakers on Capitol Hill were demanding answers from the Food and Drug Administration, the agency that was once supposed to protect us from bad or poisonous food products. Louise Schiavone has the full report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Millions of pounds of recalled meat, deaths from E.coli and spinach, pets killed by imported foods, problems with lettuce, peanut butter, chicken potpies, pizzas. All part of the problem faced by an overburdened an ill-equipped Food and Drug Administration.
GAIL H. CASSELL, FDA SCIENCE BOARD: They're operating in a crisis mode, fire fighting mode, as it relates to regulatory science, not a pro-active mode, and this is where you really run into problems, because you're only addressing emergencies and crises.
SCHIAVONE: No argument from Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt.
MICHAEL LEAVITT, HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES SECY.: We have seen the warning signs in the last several months that our current system is not keeping up and that we have to respond.
SCHIAVONE: In Congress, where the spending begins, the push is on to expand the FDA's budget, in keeping with the recommendations of an advisory panel to the FDA.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The FDA does not have the capacity to ensure the safety of food for the nation.
SCHIAVONE: The FDA admits that its current budget level of less than $2 billion falls far short of what's needed to accomplish a mission greatly expanded by lawmakers in recent years.
CASSELL: Their inspection rate has gone down 78 percent in the last 35 years, while, as we know, in fact, the number of sites producing food and countries in which we importing foods have increased exponentially.
SCHIAVONE: Secretary Leavitt told Congress that the panel's recommendations have been taken to heart, and that the administration was expanding its budget proposal for the FDA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, despite the obvious failings Leavitt asserts the U.S. food supply is one of the safest in the world, but the advisory panel report says, "The way things stand now, the FDA is barely able to protect American consumers". Lou?
DOBBS: Yeah and I think, Louise, we should be straightforward here. I think that it is incumbent upon us. The FDA is not protecting American consumers. The FDA is not doing its job. And it is not doing its job because the Bush administration categorically has not funded it nor has it in any way supported the FDA in its proper regulatory role.
Inconvenient to the president's ideology and to this administration's way of thinking about the role of government, in fact pushing the American consumer to a very low priority, if any at all, in this administration's sense of responsibility. Louise, thank you very much. Louise Schiavone.
Up next here, President Bush keeps pushing free trade, how about that. Does anybody in this administration care about good paying middle class manufacturing jobs? Middle class jobs of any kind? How about just our middle class? We'll have that report.
And Hillary Clinton under fire for her position on Iran. I'll be talking about that and a whole bunch of other stuff with three of the country's very best radio talk show hosts.
A big city mayor reversing his position on sanctuary and illegal immigration, the mayor of the City of Phoenix joins me to talk about what is amounting to a change of direction. Stay with us. We'll find out more from the mayor in just one moment. Coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Just a little over a year ago, everybody got excited, and voted in the Democrats to lead the Senate and the House. Guess what? The U.S. Senate today passed another free trade agreement. This one with Peru, a clear victory for President Bush, a free trade agenda being supported by both the democratic and the republicans. Just hours earlier, President Bush urged Congress to ratify a similar agreement with Colombia. But as Kitty Pilgrim reports now, many lawmakers say that could lead to more job losses for Americans and bigger trade deficits.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The president today said U.S. trade deals counter the influence of President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, and promote democracy in South America.
PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, UNITED STATES: I like to quote the Prime Minister Stephen Harper. He said the biggest fear in South America is not the leader in Venezuela. The biggest fear is if the United States congress rejects the free trade agreement with Colombia. It would be an insult to a friend.
PILGRIM: One democrat says not so fast. First of all, it's a bad trade deal.
REP. MARCY KAPTUR (D), OHIO: The United States should not be signing agreements with countries with which we have trade deficits until we fix those to balances. We're already $3 billion in deficit with Colombia. Why would we not fix that first?
PILGRIM: The reason why Colombia is such an attractive trading partner for the Bush administration is about a third of Colombia's exports to the United States are oil. Another democrat says the deal is not good for this country's middle class.
REP. STEPHEN LYNCH (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We see a very corrupt government. We've had, in the past three years, about 250 union organizers executed in Colombia. Only five of those cases have resulted in convictions. PILGRIM: The Bush administration points to Colombian President Alvaro Uribe saying trade would boost his standing in Colombia and help his efforts to quell drug violence in the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Today, Secretary Paulsen, after the congressional approval of the Peruvian free trade deal says, he looks forward to working with Congress to get trade agreements with Colombia, Panama and South Korea. It's one of the few things the Bush administration is hoping to point to as a sign of success. Lou?
DOBBS: This president was quoting the former prime minister of Canada as a reason to pass a free trade agreement with Colombia?
PILGRIM: Yeah. And the argument is a little bit silly, too. Democracy is the reason to do all this.
DOBBS: This administration has -- I mean, I -- obviously, I'm an independent populous. I got to tell you. I have never been so proud as to be a member of neither of the republican or democratic party. These leaders in Congress, in this White House, are among the most incompetent, the most absolutely negligent political and governmental leaders in this country's history, in my opinion. They don't understand what they're doing, or if they do, they don't care about what they are doing to the American people. This is -- this is simply atrocious.
PILGRIM: With the Peru deal, we had a lot of republicans support, of course, but then we had a lot of democrats support. And it passed by a very wide margin.
DOBBS: Imagine that. Is anyone paying attention here? There isn't a dime's worth of difference between these two sham political organizations and parties that have become nothing more -- they're nothing more than branding mechanisms and fund-raising organizations. They have no fidelity whatsoever to American national fundamental values. You know little things like individual liberty, equal opportunity. I can't stand these people. Did you notice, Kitty?
PILGRIM: Yes, I did.
DOBBS: All right. Thank you.
Well, Victoria's Secret, my goodness, even Victoria's Secret wants to work against the basic tenants of fair and good labor practices. The problem? Reports of some of those very fancy lacey garments are put together in a not so fancy sweat shop in Jordan. By the way, we got a free trade agreement with Jordan, too. Don't we? I completely forgot. Just coincidental that I would bring it up here. A National Labor Committee report showing 150 employees from Bangladesh and Sri Lanka working long hours in poor conditions in Jordan. But Victoria's Secret is famous for those sexy runway shows that may not keep too many people from watching their fashion show on another network tonight, a show where you can see more model, of course, than clothes. And, if it doesn't bother you, the idea that free trade agreement with Jordan has a role in all of this. Well, so be it.
Up next, the major of the fifth largest city in the United States, changing course on a very important illegal immigration issue. A very important discussion about sanctuary coming up here next. I'll be talking with the mayor of the city of Phoenix about a major policy reversal that he's just undertaken.
And you heard of an opinion changing in a New York minute. Well, national opinion of the two presidential candidates who come from New York is changing just as fast. We'll explain. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: One of the largest so-called sanctuary cities is preparing to enforce the nation's laws against illegal immigration. The mayor of Phoenix, Arizona today saying he can no longer support a Phoenix police order that bars officers routinely asking the immigration status of those they arrest. That rule was written, he said, in another time on the premise that the federal government would fulfill its responsibilities regarding immigration enforcement. Obviously the mayor said, that's changed. Joining me now is the mayor of Phoenix, Mayor Phil Gordon. Mayor, good to have you here.
MAYOR PHIL GORDON (D), PHOENIX: Thank you very much. Good evening.
DOBBS: Good evening. This is quite a dramatic step for you. Why are you making it now?
GORDON: Well, the operational order has been the catalyst, that has attached that label, which, I will say, I think is unfairly attached based on what Phoenix police has done. It doesn't really matter. That operational order was written a couple of decades ago, when the federal government was enforcing all of the immigration, both on the border and locally, and, obviously, that's changed. And everybody has a role. We need to make sure that the officers have the tools to enforce those laws, but at the same time, make sure we protect constitutional rights and no racial profiling. And that's a hard balance, when the rhetoric is so high, that people won't listen to what is going on.
DOBBS: Well, when you say the rhetoric is so high that people won't listen, it's been my experience in covering this now for some number of years, that the people who won't listen in most cases are the elected officials, primarily in Washington, D.C., of both parties, and the elites who think they understand what is best for the people, and are ignoring the will of the majority in this country. When you say, tell us more about what you are thinking is in terms of the rhetoric and the time.
GORDON: Well, first, let me make your point. It is exactly right. No matter where one has been on this debate, the multiple sides of immigration, and reform, and what order, and border security, everybody has agreed it is the most important domestic issue for years, and you can have the president, the majority of Congress, and we can't pass anything? It's unconscionable, in that sense, and it is a national responsibility. Until we have that done, it's never going to get solved. But you're right. Locally, we have to have a balance, between local police, going after the criminals, the robbers, the murderers that are legal and illegal in this city, and also, at the same time, those that are committing crimes, not be prevented from asking what the immigration status is.
DOBBS: You've got a number of towns around you, the chief of police, of Phoenix, point of fact, a man who works for you in the city of Phoenix, has been very adamant in support of order 1.4, and maintaining a sanctuary city, in the midst of Maricopa County where Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been working with immigration and customs enforcement under 287-G that permits his deputies to carry out enforcement of immigration law. So are you saying you are going to go to 287-G as well in the city of Phoenix?
GORDON: Mr. Dobbs, no, actually, if I may -- first of all, we have, I believe, the best police chief, best manager in the country, and the best department. Obviously, every mayor, you know, a little biased, but Phoenix's police record is unblemished. And --
DOBBS: Wait, wait -- I want to be clear. I'm not casting any criticism.
GORDON: No.
DOBBS: I want to get to the issue of 287-G that gives your officers in that city the opportunity to work with immigration -- federal immigration authorities.
GORDON: Absolutely. The point that I was going to make, though, is, so that nobody misunderstood, that's watching, with respect to what our chief is about, in the department. We actually work with ICE, in the company. We have ICE agents embedded full time within our police department. And, in fact, while the sheriff has discussed what he and his deputies are doing, the Phoenix police have been the individuals that arrested 5,000 --
DOBBS: Again, mayor, I'm not in any way criticizing your police department. I'm saying that they have been proponents of what has been effectively a sanctuary city. And what I'm trying to understand is, if you are going to use 287-G, which was would allow, as does, it does the sheriff and the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, the opportunity to work directly with immigration and customs enforcement. And the enforcement of immigration law.
GORDON: The answer would be no on that.
DOBBS: Why not?
GORDON: We're actually being able to get ICE directly by the officers, involved, so that we don't divert the time, hours to take a police officer off the street, once that is determined, and then go book them and everything, so, it's a partnership that we're developing that will balance that, the police officer on the street, and still require the federal government to do some of the responsibility.
DOBBS: Why would you not use 287-G, a tremendous resource?
GORDON: Right, well, we have 3,000 offers to train, 3,000 officers at six months, take so many off the street. We've answered, the Phoenix police have 2,300,000 calls a year.
DOBBS: What will be the immediate effect of the city of Phoenix as you change the posture of Phoenix?
GORDON: Well, one, again, I think it will allow everybody to know that we haven't a sanctuary city. We cooperate with the federal government and ice and arrest individuals, because of their status, or turn them over to ice, if they are found at drop houses, if they have committed crimes. But to answer your question directly, it will allow officers, as you said, who have arrested someone for violating a crime, not to be prohibits from calling ice, the federal government in, or determining their immigration status through ice.
DOBBS: All 3,000 of your officers will be able to do that under the program that's going to be created.
GORDON: That's what the professionals are developing right now.
DOBBS: Mayor Phil Gordon, thank you very much. And, I have to tell you, as one who has covered this issue for some time, I think you have made a correct decision to reverse that direction of your city, in regard of order 1.4. And I wish you all the very best. I'm sure the people of Phoenix are grateful, as well.
GORDON: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Less than a week after being accused of hiring illegal aliens, republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney today well he took action. He fired the landscaping company working at his home, a home that Rudy Giuliani referred to as a sanctuary mansion. Last week, Romney and Rudy Giuliani squaring off in a heated debate over sanctuary cities on the CNN/You Tube debate, that's when Giuliani blasted Romney for hiring illegal workers as I said calling Romney's home a sanctuary mansion. No longer.
Coming up at the top of the hour, "OUT IN THE OPEN," Rick Sanchez has it. Rick.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Pretty clear, I mean, if the Bush administration, Lou, knew that in 2003, Iran no longer had a nuclear weapons program, why, then, did they continue to say to the American people that there was this huge threat. At one point, the president of the United States actually raised the specter of World War III talking about this. There's a real serious creditability issue here that we're going to be addressing directly forthrightly and directly by asking John Bolton, former U.N. ambassador John Bolton, who is a Bush loyalist, arguably, these questions about this and it should be a fabulous interview. And you know, Joe Biden. We know what Joe Biden's going to say. He's furious about this, and he's going to tell us why he's furious about this. And, also, we're going to be talking about -- you are going to love this. O.J. Simpson can't avoid being in front of cameras. Like that's a surprise. We're going to go into that. And there's a new show, it's called "Who Wants to Marry a U.S. Citizen." We're going to have the producer here, and we're going to ask him about what his intent is, because there's obviously a lot of meat in that one, if you know what I mean.
DOBBS: Ask him, you might ask him if I could suggest, Rick, what will keep anyone who happened to tune into it from just throwing up at the very premise. Rick Sanchez, thank you very much. "OUT IN THE OPEN" coming up next.
Up next, former president Bill Clinton stands up for his wife, saying the media is being unfair to his wife. And Oprah Winfrey proving her star power from the Obama campaign. Those stories and more. I'll be talking with three of the best radio talk show hosts in the country as we continue here. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best radio talk show hosts in the country. In Chicago, Steve Cochran, WGN Radio. We're also simulcasting right now over WGN, WGN over CNN. That's the way that works. Steve, good to see you. In Los Angeles, Doug McIntyre, KABC Radio. Doug, good to see you. It's been awhile.
DOUG MCINTYRE, KABC RADIO: The only way can I get on WGN. Come on your show.
STEVE COCHRAN, WGN RADIO: Call me.
DOBBS: Did you hear, Cochran, he's going to work something out with you here.
MCINTYRE: He won't take that call.
DOBBS: And here in New York, Rachel Maddow of Air America. Good to have you here Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, AIR AMERICA: Nice to see you.
DOBBS: Let's start with Bill Clinton on the campaign, stumping, and, bristling at the idea that the media's being unfair to his wife, what do you think Rachel?
MADDOW: I think that's his job at this point in the campaign is to stand up for Hillary Clinton to play the role of husband and protector. I think this is something that makes people comfortable. They like hearing Bill Clinton talk and him sounding like a husband to his wife.
MCINTYRE: There's an interesting piece of this, though, Lou, and that is, there's a lot of people I'm running into who keep saying, I can't wait to get Bill Clinton back in the White House. He's not running. And I can't really picture a lot of scenarios once Hillary is elected, they are sitting around the fire, and she says, honey, what would you do about China? I think people need to get that out of their head. And she spent a lot of time this week on the Obama has no experience. She hasn't been in the gig that long herself. I don't think that's a real strong path for her.
MADDOW: That's the issue why it is good Bill is saying those things. He's not weighing in on policy. He's weighing in be nice to my wife. He's playing a first lady kind of role here. People are comfortable with that.
COCHRAN: He's got Elizabeth Edwards. He's playing. Well, it's true, because, until there is a vice presidential candidate on the ticket to be the pit bull, the spouse has to sort of be the wing man here. And that's what he's doing. I do disagree with one thing. He is running again.
DOBBS: I think that's an interesting point, too. The idea, by the way, we find out week that -- that the national intelligence estimate was kept from a president for three months, and that it reveals that Iran is not pursuing a bomb. Seemed like something of a bomb to me, and the Washington press corps was dealing with it as if it was business as usual. Your thoughts, Rachel?
MADDOW: I was shocked that President Bush did not address that huge looming issue today in the press conference. We walked away, looking, I think, upset, and concerned and like he didn't quite know how to answer the question, but in the "Washington Post" this morning it says that the Bush administration officials were all briefed last summer on the fact that Iran doesn't have a nuclear program. Bush didn't learn until Tuesday? What kind of administration is that?
DOBBS: Doug, do you believe that the president didn't really ask when advised this summer, in august, that there were new developments on the intelligence on Iran?
MCINTYRE: Lou, I don't know how to respond to these stories anymore. To me, this is a vindication of Vladimir Putin. Have we come to this? You know, the caption for this time, in my time capsule, is we're living in the age of post-truth.
DOBBS: That's a great way to look at it.
MCINTYRE: Because, what's up is down and what's down is up. How is it possible that we go back to our allies and try to get them to believe us on anything?
COCHRAN: You know, I think down the rode, and I don't know how far down the road, but this president is going to be remembered as being crazy like a fox. Like a crazy fox. A crazy, crazy fox.
MADDOW: Crazy like a crazy fox. I'm stealing that.
COCHRAN: I believe I think all of us generally probably feel he probably on some level got the memo. I don't know what legacy you could protect at this point. Having said that, Iran has done something traditionally, and cyclically almost, where they build up just as far as they possibly can and then they get some pressure from the international community, and they back down. Those sort of games don't go away. And at some point, they will be nuclear ready. That in no way makes you go, okay, let's invade. We can't, we shouldn't, and we won't. We do have to take them seriously. And it would be nice to have China and Russia and the rest of the international community put some pressure on Iran, as well.
DOBBS: I believe this week, folks, does demonstrate one thing. That any American who takes their government seriously on intelligence estimates, or, their president seriously without a major, major consideration, solidly based in outright skepticism is committing an absolute negligent act as a citizen.
MCINTYRE: No, it's really dangerous.
DOBBS: It's crazy.
MADDOW: Because we're living --
MCINTYRE: The CIA did not see the collapse of the Soviet Union coming. The CIA called in coordinates during the war for an air strike and they hit the Chinese embassy that was on a tourist map. You know, this is real serious business, we're told over and over again, and I believe this, that the war on terror is real. There are people conspiring to kill Americans and kill the west, but we have to have actual intelligence that's processed intelligently, and I don't know what to say. I can't read satellite photos. I see Colin Powell before the U.N. and believe him and none of this stuff turns out to be true.
DOBBS: We used to say that military and intelligence were constituted an oxymoron, the Bush administration and intelligence is the oxymoron.
COCHRAN: I've been fired for a lot of reasons. Most of them legitimate. But nobody got fired for 9/11.
MCINTYRE: That's right. Gave medals.
MADDOW: There was a medal of freedom involved.
MCINTYRE: The worst day in our country's history, arguably the worst day. I don't know that anybody got it on their permanent record. This is the great underreported story among the candidates. How come they're not talking about this? Not talking about what they are going to do when they get the gig about fixing it?
MADDOW: There's one really important thing about the NIE. It says that Iran stopped its nuclear weapons program four years ago when it was exposed they had a secret program. In other words, inspections worked. The old boring a political system that's been so derided is what caused them to stop. For the White House now to be ignoring this, I think it's bordering on insane.
DOBBS: Well, I don't know where you find that border with this administration, frankly. One of the insanities has been the prosecution of two former border patrol agents, Ramos and Compean. A day in appellate court and looks like a good day I'm going to take that up with Doug McIntyre who has been following that story very carefully, and we'll be right back. Steve Cochran has to leave us to continue his radio show. We're going to be right back with Doug and Rachel. Steve Cochran, we thank you for being with us. And it is always great to see you. Great seeing you.
COCHRAN: Thank you, sir.
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DOBBS: We're back with Doug McIntyre and Rachel Maddow. Doug, it looks like a very favorable beginning, at least in the oral arguments before the appellate court yesterday.
MCINTYRE: Yeah, Judge Jolly, what a perfect name, as we go into the Christmas and holiday season. It looks like, very interested in hearing more about this case, as are millions of Americans, because, here is a situation where the prosecution, Johnny Sutton, offered immunity to a drug dealer and let him plead the fifth. I thought part of immunity deals are that you get testimony? So how can you send two guys to jail for more than a decade without allowing them to cross examine their accuser?
DOBBS: Well, it's very clear that the deputy U.S. attorney in the western district in Texas who went after these border agents didn't care one whit about justice or doing the correct thing and Johnny Sutton has responsibility for what his office perpetrated which is in my opinion and I know yours an outrageous miscarriage of justice. So let's hope that justice is finally available to these fine men here.
Rachel, Romney is going to attempt apparently the Kennedy speech this Thursday. What do you think the odds are that he can pull it off?
MADDOW: Well, he's announced that he's going to give his big religion speech. He's another Massachusetts attractive politician with great hair from a minority faith running for president. He's got to give his religion speech. He's trying to lower the expectations so that people think he's not trying to follow in JFK's footsteps but he is.
I think the big problem for him is that JFK speech in 1960 was all about how important it is to keep church and state separate. Romney can't give that speech in the Republican Party in 2007. It's going to be hard for him to come up with another argument for why a minority faith still gets the presidency.
DOBBS: Doug, you get the last word. Any thoughts on religion, Romney in 2007?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think that the same people that are building up Huckabee will hate him if he actually gets to be the nominee, because you talk about separation of church and state; he's a minister. So it almost seems to me that the Democrats want him to be the nominee, because they think he'd be the easiest to beat. DOBBS: All I can say to both of you and Steve Cochran, he's still with us, is hallelujah and thank you for being with us. Doug McIntyre, Rachel Maddow, thanks very much.
MCINTYRE: Always good, Lou, thanks.
MADDOW: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll. 97 percent of you responding that credit card companies in this country shouldn't be allowed to raise your interest rates even if you've been a good customer and paid your bills on time. What would that be about? Would that be about usury and greed and just unprincipled business practices? You betcha.
Time now for more of your thoughts. Thomas in Texas -- "Hi, Lou. I was watching the debate today by our illustrious Congress on the win-win Peru Trade deal. Bull crap! If we had Mao sitting in the White House and the red Chinese Congress sitting in our Capitol, we would probably have better trade agreements than we've had from the Clinton and Bush administrations."
Well, I think that can be demonstrated empirically. The Chinese have $250 billion trade surplus.
And William in Pennsylvania -- "Hi, Lou. If it wasn't for you keeping an eye on what's going on in the world, we would never get the true facts. Thank you."
And thank you.
Fernando in New Jersey -- "I love your populist position and messages on your show. I have been highly unsatisfied with the direction that the federal and local governments are taking in the United States, and have registered as an independent."
Good for you and thank you.
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose email is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
We thank you for being with us tonight. Join us here tomorrow. Good night from New York. "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez begins right now -- Rick.
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