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Presidential Race Gets Personal in Iowa; Supreme Court Hears Guantanamo Bay Case; Mall Shooting in Omaha, Nebraska

Aired December 05, 2007 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Talk about a fixed rate. Relief may be at hand for subprime mortgage holders whose rates have gone through the roof.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: A permanent fix, it's not. But, with winter on the doorstep and foreclosures hot and heavy, a freeze could come in handy. Our Gerri Willis runs the numbers for us this hour.

Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon live at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.

PHILLIPS: And I'm Kyra Phillips. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Let's talk more about this deal that may be near on freezing subprime mortgage rates.

Brianna Keilar working it for us out of Washington.

What do we know, Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, the Bush administration has been trying to address what really has become a crisis with this credit crunch.

And we understand now the president is close enough to a deal that an administration source says he is expected to talk about this tomorrow. Now, we don't know exactly what he's going to say, because this agreement is still being hammered out.

But here's what we do know. This deal, this deal that he is expected to possibly talk about tomorrow, would freeze rates for homeowners facing possible steep increases on their interest rates for mortgages, that according to administration sources.

Now, what the plan would do is to freeze rates for five years on subprime mortgages. These rates would be frozen if borrowers meet certain criteria. For instance, they would have to be current on payments and they would have to prove that they couldn't afford higher rates. So, officials caution at this point the mortgage industry has yet to sign off on this. But at this point they are cautiously optimistic, optimistic enough that it's being discussed that President Bush will address this some time tomorrow, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. We are going to follow up even more and figure out what it means for you and me specifically. Brianna Keilar there at the White House, thanks very much.

Personal finance editor Gerri Willis joining us now.

Put it out there in layman terms for us, Gerri, and what this means for homeowners.

GERRI WILLIS, CNN PERSONAL FINANCE EDITOR: Well, here is what they are talking about and what Henry Paulson, the treasury secretary, has been talking about all week. They want to try to give some relief to homeowners with these mortgages that have very steep interest rates. The devil is in the details, though.

It looks like from what they have been talking about this week that not all subprime mortgage holders will be helped, only some, as Brianna said. It would be those people who have subprime mortgages, could afford the original teaser rate, but once that teaser rate goes higher, they wouldn't be able to afford the mortgage.

Now, here's what I have heard this week from industry analysts who have been talking about how a program like this might work. You wouldn't go out and apply with it with the federal government. In fact you would get a letter from your lender or servicer saying that you are eligible for help.

So, these letters would be generated by the industry and sent to you at home. Now here's what you need to know. You may not know that you have a subprime rate. There's no one definition for subprime out there and, certainly, if you took out a subprime loan, that word was not stamped on the cover of the loan.

Here's what you can look for, though, in your loan document, if you're wondering whether your loan is subprime or not. A high interest rate of 8 percent or higher indicates you could have a subprime loan. Prepayment penalties indicate you could have a subprime loan. Prepayment penalties are just a fee, a charge if you refinance early in the life of that loan.

And, of course, if you pay points that cover more than just the interest rate, pay points at the close of a loan that cover more than just prepayment of interest rate, then that indicates you may have a subprime loan. But the devil is in the details here. Very tricky stuff. People will need to do some digging to find out if they are even eligible and certainly if you think you need the help and you're not getting the letter, well, you need to take action yourself by contacting that lender and asking for it.

PHILLIPS: Start going through the paperwork.

All right, Gerri Willis, thanks.

WILLIS: My pleasure.

LEMON: Reality hits. Reality hits after the storms. However, homeowners should get their first glimpse of muddy misery across the Pacific Northwest. CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is in soggy Burien, Washington, a suburb of Seattle. And Chad Myers, well, he is keeping watch in our Severe Weather Center.

But, first, we have some amazing video to show you, some of the rescues we have been telling you about, families stranded by high water. And, as you can see, some of the communities in western Washington can only be reached by helicopter. Man, oh, man.

The Coast Guard and the National Guard have picked up about 300 people and six pets so far. Here, a young family in Chehalis was whisked to safety.

Chad, we hear there are still flood warnings out today. True?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: They are absolutely true, almost all of the rivers as you're getting now closer and closer to the Pacific as the water runs away from the mountains where it piled up, and as it runs back into the Pacific, all of those really still under flood warnings.

It is not raining anymore. The rain is gone. And one thing I wanted to show you, you can kind of go on to Google Earth, you can go on to other places and look at this. But we have kind of called up -- here's Seattle. Here's Portland. We have called up all the river gauges. And all the gauges that are nice and green or light blue, especially the ones that are farther to the east, those are going down and out of flood stage.

If it's dark blue -- these are all the gauge all around -- if it's dark blue, then you have an area there where it's bank full, but not overfull. And all the black dots that you see here -- there's at least, I don't know, it must 15 or 20 of them there -- that are already in still over bank full at this point.

Our Thelma Gutierrez is up where it has been a muddy mess for most of the day.

And it doesn't look much better behind you at this hour -- Thelma.

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, Chad, I can tell you, it's an absolute mess out here. Cleanup crews and residents have had to dig through the mud to try to even get to their property.

You can take a look right behind me. This is what they are up against. This front-loader has been out all morning long trying to clean out the driveway at Barbara Bull's house. If you take a look here, you can see a chunk of her neighbor's yard that literally slid into her driveway, pushing her car right through her living room. She says she was on a cell phone at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA BULL, HOMEOWNER: We talked only about a minute-and-a- half when this huge explosion was. And I said, oh, Jack, I said that -- and there's a bomb in my house. Hang on. And I went to my window and here's my car sticking in the door. And I ran back and I said, please call 911.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTIERREZ: Now, fortunately, Barbara Bull was not injured, but her home was red-tagged.

Now, Daniel Bretzke has been out here with the cleanup crews all morning long. He's the maintenance manager for the city of Burien.

Thanks for joining us. Tell us what's going on right behind us here.

DANIEL BRETZKE, BURIEN PUBLIC WORKS MANAGER: Pretty much what we are doing is cleaning up where the slide went into the road and trying to stabilize, keep any more stuff from coming out into the street.

GUTIERREZ: Now, what are we looking at here? We see the cement barriers, then across the away some bales of hay.

BRETZKE: The barriers are there to prevent any more sliding into the street. The bales of hay, we are going to be using that to pick up -- to protect the ground from eroding anymore.

GUTIERREZ: You have been pretty busy this morning.

BRETZKE: This morning and yesterday all day actually.

GUTIERREZ: You said this is one of the worst storms that you have seen.

BRETZKE: This is -- the amount of rainstorm we had this year is definitely one of the worst we have had since I have worked here, which is about five years. So...

GUTIERREZ: All right. Well, good luck to you. I know you have a lot of work. Thank you so much.

(CROSSTALK)

BRETZKE: Thank you very much.

GUTIERREZ: And right now, Chad, what we are hearing is that there are 20 major road closures in the area and 50,000 residents are still without power, so, a lot of work ahead of them -- back to you, Chad.

MYERS: Thelma, thank you. Be careful out there. That -- that ground is still going to be moving for a while. It is still very saturated. Thank you for your reporting.

(WEATHER UPDATE)

LEMON: All right, Chad, thank you very much, sir. PHILLIPS: It's a basic right guaranteed to every American, habeas corpus. And the 300-plus detainees at Guantanamo Bay want it too. Their lawyers made the case just hours ago before the Supreme Court. And once again, the Bush administration is fighting back.

CNN's Jamie McIntyre was in court today. He's been following it for us.

Hey, Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Kyra.

Outside the court today, in this snowy day in Washington, demonstrators clad in orange jumpsuits were portraying the plight of the prisoners in Guantanamo, held indefinitely without access to their attorneys, without being able to face their accusers, without the ability to present evidence, have legal representation, or challenge their detention in court.

It was exactly the argument that was hit very hard by the lawyers for the detainees in the opening statements before the Supreme Court today.

Here's a little excerpt from Seth Waxman, the detainees' attorney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SETH P. WAXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DETAINEES: All have been confined at Guantanamo for almost six years, yet not one has ever had meaningful notice of the factual grounds of detention or a fair opportunity to dispute those grounds before a neutral decision-maker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: There was some sympathy for that argument on the court, particularly among Justices Breyer and Ginsburg.

But, at the same time, Justices Robert, the chief justice, and Antonin Scalia, in particular, took up the administration take on things, challenging those attorneys to come up with a single case that provided a precedent for providing habeas corpus rights, the right to challenge unlawful detainment, to foreign prisoners held in the U.S.

Here's a little of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONIN SCALIA, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Counsel, we had 400,000 -- 400,000 German prisoners in this country during World War II, and not a single -- you say it's clear, in the Vietnam example that the chief justice gave you, that it's clear that habeas would lie -- 400,000 of these people, it never occurred to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MCINTYRE: Of course, they were prisoners of war. And prisoner of war status is something that's been denied to the Guantanamo detainees.

Still, the government argues that opening up the federal courts to detainees would make it virtually impossible to hold terrorism suspects, would be a nightmare.

Ultimately, the case may hinge on whether Guantanamo is considered U.S. territory, because, after all, the U.S. is the law of the land there. That's what the detainees' attorneys argued. And so for the 300 or so detainees in Guantanamo, some there as long as six years, they are going to have to wait about six months more to hear what the Supreme Court thinks -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: And we will keep following it. Jamie McIntyre, thank you.

LEMON: Police are out on the water today in search of Stacy Peterson. Boats and divers are probing the Illinois Michigan Canal, reportedly trying to pull up something under water.

Stacy's husband, Drew, has been a suspect in her disappearance for weeks now. As time goes on, we are hearing more from people who know Drew Peterson best.

CNN's Gary Tuchman spoke to the husband of Drew Peterson's first wife. Their conversation airs tonight on "A.C. 360" at 10:00 Eastern.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What is the reason that she divorced him back then?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, because he was unfaithful. And that's pretty much it, same as 99 percent of the divorces, I'm sure.

TUCHMAN: But he wasn't cruel to her or threatened her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all, no. That never came up and, like I said, not even threatening.

TUCHMAN: So, do you believe what you hear about the second wife and the allegations about the third wife and then maybe about the fourth wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, believe? I just hear what I hear in the papers and that. So, I, you know, really can't say. But it's not like the Drew I knew 30 years ago.

TUCHMAN: And you knew drew as a kid. What kind of kid was he?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what I say. He was normal, too, then. He was a -- he ran cross-country in high school. I was on the football team. So, we would see each other in the locker room. I played tennis with him after we graduated and stuff like that, just normal things that 18-year-old guys do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Stacy Peterson has been missing for more than five weeks. Drew Peterson says she left him for another man.

PHILLIPS: British tabloids having lots of fun with the surprise reappearance of a man believed to be long dead. We will have the details and lots of unanswered questions.

LEMON: Presidential politics. The polls are tightening and time is growing short before the Iowa caucuses. We will take you to Iowa, where the race for the White House is getting personal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We have a very serious story to tell you about, breaking news.

Fredricka Whitfield working on it for us.

What do you have, Fred?

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, in Omaha, Nebraska, reports of a shooting taking place right in the middle of a very busy and one of the biggest shopping malls to that area.

We understand that there are conflicting reports coming from various affiliates there, anywhere from one to maybe even five people who have been shot. Police are looking for the person responsible for opening gunfire in this shopping mall.

We understand from one of our affiliates. And they're reporting, KETV, they are saying that at least one person was shot right inside a store called the Von Maur store in the Westroads Mall after a shooting taking place, all of them .

You're looking at live pictures right now. That mall is, of course, on lockdown. You're seeing the police presence there and what appears to be a stretcher. Now we're -- oh, no, it looks like one, maybe even two stretchers, that they may be bringing inside the mall there. You're looking at the exterior pictures of the mall there at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, again a very busy or ordinarily a very busy, but at least one of the biggest shopping malls in the area.

We have a couple stories there when we get any more information about exactly what has happened there, because our live picture -- things are just happening within the past hour there, so our affiliate just getting on the scene, and it's unclear where this gunman is, if it's one or two, but the search is under way, the mall on lockdown.

You see what looks now to me, just my trying to count there of those stretchers, three stretchers that have been brought inside. But there is no telling how many victims. Various affiliates reporting anywhere from one to five who may have been shot inside this mall.

More information when we get it, Don.

LEMON: Absolutely, Fred. We will definitely check back. Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Three Sixteen Eastern time. Here's a number of other stories that we are working on in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Breaking information out of Washington. Administration sources tell CNN the Bush administration is close to a deal on freezing interest rates on some subprime mortgages for five years. It would apply to homeowners who could face a big increase in mortgage interest rates.

The search for Stacy Peterson takes to the water. Divers and boats are checking the Illinois-Michigan Canal right now for the missing woman. Meantime, police have executed a third search warrant in the case, this one focused on husband Drew Peterson's cars. Peterson is a former Illinois cop.

Flood warnings still in effect the Pacific Northwest, even though some of the waters are starting to recede. Some evacuated homeowners are now getting their first look at the damage and muddy mess left by back-to-back storms.

LEMON: You know, voters say they don't like it when candidates go negative, but political strategists will tell you they do it for one reason. They say it works.

With the Iowa caucuses now less than a month a way, our Suzanne Malveaux reports, the presidential candidates are talking less about the issues and more about each other.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite the freezing temperatures, Iowa is heating up.

While the Democratic debate in Des Moines on National Public Radio was mostly civil, hot rhetoric has been blasting between Democratic front-runners, Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, now here in a statistical dead heat.

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are not going to take it anymore.

MALVEAUX: With John Edwards right behind. Residents are already growing weary of the back-biting.

DEB BREWER, IOWA RESIDENT: It's just very disappointing. We really need to focus on hearing what the candidates want to do for our country and helping us. And I can't make a decision when it's all negative.

JOSH MOKLESTAD, IOWA RESIDENT: I understand, if you're getting attacked, your natural reaction is to fight back. But it does kind of reflect negatively on their character.

MALVEAUX: Over the past week, the Obama, Clinton and to a lesser degree the Edwards campaigns have been sparring over who is honest, cowardly or kind, in language that has sometimes turned nasty, a big risk, says political professor Arthur Sanders of Drake University.

ARTHUR SANDERS, POLITICAL PROFESSOR, DRAKE UNIVERSITY: You obviously want to make some comparisons. You have got to give undecided voters or people who are not sure reasons why your opponent isn't as good as you, but not too much.

MALVEAUX: That too much negativity proved devastating for some Democratic candidates hoping to capture Iowa in 2004.

SANDERS: When Dick Gephardt and Howard Dean started going after each other, and that allowed both John Kerry and John Edwards to move up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Suzanne Malveaux joins us live from Des Moines, Iowa.

Suzanne, despite the fact voters say they don't like the negativity, candidates still do it, don't they?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, it's almost like they can't help themselves.

The big moment in the debate yesterday was when Senator John Edwards accused Senator Clinton of supporting what he said was a near declaration of war with Iran. Well, Senator Clinton hit back. She hit back really hard, saying that it was really an outlandish political charge, that he had gone much too far.

But this whole controversy over Iran, really much too tempting for the opponents of Clinton not to use. They are trying as part of a strategy to paint the former first lady as being very similar to President Bush -- Don.

LEMON: All right, our Suzanne Malveaux in Des Moines, Iowa -- thank you very much for that report, Suzanne.

And if you want the most up-to-the-minute political news available anywhere, CNNPolitics.com is your one-stop shop -- CNNPolitics, the Internet's premier demonstration for political news.

PHILLIPS: And out of Omaha, Nebraska, we are following that shooting at a shopping mall. We are working the details right now. Live pictures from our affiliate KETV. We will bring it to you right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Fredricka Whitfield, what are you working on for us?

WHITFIELD: Well, Kyra, this in Omaha, Nebraska. Take a look at these very sobering and frightening pictures right at a shopping mall in the height of the holiday shopping season. And shots ring out. And now you see the latest images coming in.

These are shoppers all leaving this Von Maur store in the Westroads Mall after a shooting taking place, all of them streaming out with the hands up because police are still looking for the suspect.

And so, as of yet, almost everybody being treated just like they were a potential suspect, being filed out. They will be questioned, of course, to see if they happened to be the innocent bystanders or if any of them have anything to do with or know anything about the shooting that took place.

So, just within the past hour, a shooting did take place right there inside a very popular store inside this rather large and popular shopping mall. At least one person has been shot. You see these shoppers here with their hands up and holding their goods after spending an afternoon at the busy shopping mall there.

Other affiliates are reporting that possibly as many as five people may have been shot. Right now live pictures now, the entire mall on lockdown. We saw moments ago -- you saw it here live on CNN -- how the first-responders were taking in at least three stretchers inside the mall, in pursuit of these potential victims who may have been hit by this gunfire.

Still unclear exactly what precipitated this fire and if there is a reasonable explanation -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Fred, thank you very much.

And, Fred, we are getting some new information in.

We want to go to one of our correspondents out on the West Coast, Dan Simon, who hails from Omaha, Nebraska.

Dan, thanks for joining us. Can you tell us what you know about this particular mall?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, don, I was born and bred in Omaha. Most of my family still lives there. I can tell that you everybody in that town goes to the Westroads shopping mall. It is probably the most popular shopping mall in town. There really are not that many malls in Omaha.

This is actually in a very nice part of the city, in what is considered West Omaha. I actually, you know, lived in a house not too far away from that mall.

But this is very shocking that there would be a shooting at the Westroads. I have never heard of a shooting actually taking place there.

I'm monitoring some of the affiliates in Omaha. Some of the news organizations there are reporting that as many as five people have been shot, perhaps as many as 15 shots fired. This is just absolutely shocking that there would be a shooting there.

LEMON: So, Dan, I know you're monitoring some of the affiliates there. Are you able to see CNN air where you are?

SIMON: Yes, I am.

LEMON: You are.

Well, explain, what is this store? And we saw the people before coming out with their hands up. Do you know the facade that we are looking at now?

SIMON: This appears to be the main entrance to the Westroads. There is a Von Maur store there, and it appears that we are looking at the entryway going in to the Von Maur store, which is, obviously, a very popular department store in many parts of the country. And we are seeing people leaving the...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hey, Dan, real quick, I just want to jump in, because we are seeing a stretcher go in. And, of course, we know shots fired. And if you see a stretcher go in, one would assume, not exactly sure because this is all happening as we speak, but there may possibly be some injuries or more injuries to report in all of this, Dan.

I know that you're working your sources there as well, since you're from there. Are you hearing anything from any of your sources there about this particular shooting?

SIMON: No.

It just happened just a short time ago. Obviously, it's a fluid situation, a number of police and folks. I am going to call other people I know to see what they are hearing.

But, like I said, just absolutely so surprising and shocking that it would occur in this particular part of town, which is a very nice part of Omaha, West Omaha. And, like I said, everybody knows the Westroads in Omaha.

LEMON: Yes. You said -- it's pronounced Von Maur, right?

SIMON: It appears the shot that we are looking there is the Von Maur.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, Von Maur, because we just saw -- I just saw the exterior. I just wanted to make sure, with the sign, wanted to make sure I was pronouncing it right.

And you see all of this apparatus on the -- on site there, a number of different ambulances. And, of course, this could not have happened at a worse time because of the holiday shopping season just gearing up. We are monitoring our affiliates as well.

Dan Simon, I am going to let you go and call some of your sources. We appreciate you calling in to the CNN NEWSROOM. If you get any more information, can you let us know?

SIMON: You bet.

LEMON: All right, Dan.

SIMON: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Dan Simon, thank you very much.

We are monitoring our affiliates there in the Omaha, Nebraska area, also checking all of our sources, a shooting at a shopping mall happening just a short time ago, as many as five people shot at this Omaha, Nebraska, shopping mall -- details to come in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: And we're going to listen just for a few minutes here to KPTM, brother-in-law out of Omaha, Nebraska, as we're following this report of a shooter at the Westroads Mall in Omaha. It appears to have happened at the Von Maur store. Paramedics at the scene. The mall is locked down. Possibly one person shot.

Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- did you see the shooting?

Did it happen inside Von Maur?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It did happen inside Von Maur. There was a series of shootings. Like it would stop for a couple of seconds and then it would come back. And it was from one of the higher floors, because I am on the first floor and I was looking out into the atrium.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you were on the first floor when this happened.

You heard it from coming -- coming from either the second floor or third floor then?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It was coming from either the second floor or the third floor, because they shot down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So they shot from the upper floors down to the lower floors then?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they did both, because I only saw a couple of shots come down through. But, yes, they did shoot down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see any victims taken away? Did you see any victims?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did. I don't know what's happened to them. I don't know what's all going on -- what all kind of happened. But, yes, I did see them shoot down and hit someone. So...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you -- was it one person or several people?

Do you know exactly how many people may have been shot?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don't know. And I -- I'm not smart enough to know, due to how many shots were fired, how -- if it was one or two people or if it was more than one. But I didn't see anybody. I just saw it because I was on the first floor and they were on the higher floors. I'm guessing second.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you happen to see the shooter or a shooter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I could not, no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They -- we hit the dirt. We hit pavement as soon as possible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your response? Obviously, that's the last thing you would expect to happen when you are working at the mall, doing your normal job. What was your response? What did you do once the shooting stopped?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, it was -- I had, you know, unfortunately, we had customers there. And so luckily for us -- and especially in cosmetics, we have the base where you can kind of duck down and get under. And my first instinct was to get as many customers down and away from any sort of eyeline as possible. So we just kind of stayed down. I tried to call 911 and it was busy, so I called my dad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: That's KPTM, one of brother-in-laws that's following the breaking news out of Omaha.

On the other side of the screen here, you're seeing live pictures from KETV. That's our other affiliate. But you heard from KPTM, the woman inside this store -- in the shopping mall where that shooting has taken place -- this is the Von Maur store at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska. You heard from a woman inside that store who actually called into the station.

And she was on the first floor and she said she could actually hear the shots, see the shots coming from either the second or third floor. Right now, just moments ago, one of the injured, possibly the individual who has been shot, being brought out by paramedics.

There was reports from another affiliate that possibly an elderly man was shot inside this store. That could be him. We are following it. Once again, the Von Maur store there at Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska. A shooting breaking out. We're following all the affiliate coverage and working details, too, from our end.

LEMON: Absolutely.

We're going to get back here to our Dan Simon, who is an Omaha, Nebraska native and has lots of sources there, knows the area pretty well -- Dan, you're watching these live pictures come in.

Tell us what you know.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: My sister-in-law is actually headed that way. She's going to scope out the scene for us. But everything is basically unfolding. A lot of pandemonium, from what we're hearing, over in that area, as you would expect.

Just to give you some context, the Westroads shopping mall is in a very nice part of town. That Von Maur store where the shooting reportedly took place is without a doubt the nicest department store in Omaha. And, obviously, with the Christmas season unfolding and a lot of people out and about, no question, there were a lot of people inside that mall today.

So we're still trying to get more information, but from what we're hearing from various affiliates, perhaps as many as five people shot and, obviously, lots of shots fired.

LEMON: And, Dan, because you're from there and you know the area, you can give us a more personal feel. You said that, you know, one of the nicest areas in Omaha, Nebraska, of course, is this area that this shopping mall is located and this store is located in.

Give us some other context about this particular area. Obviously, you said it's a shock -- not a place where you would think someone would just open fire on people.

SIMON: No, I actually grew up about two miles away from that mall. That's what -- where our house was. And it's just so surprising that it would take place at the Westroads shopping mall. I mean we used to go there all the time. And everybody in Omaha is very familiar with the Westroads shopping mall. It's the last place where you would expect any type of violence to occur, Don.

LEMON: Yes. And this is obviously where you guys did your shopping for the holidays and back to school and what you have and all that stuff.

SIMON: That's right.

LEMON: So, Dan, you said your sister-in-law is headed to the area.

How far away does she live from this, do you know?

SIMON: She lives probably 10, 15 minutes away from this mall. You know, it -- you know, Omaha is kind of a smaller community. It doesn't take that long to get from place to place. But she's going to be there in just a few minutes for us and hopefully we can get her on the phone, as well, Don.

LEMON: Yes. I was going to say, if you can, have her call in, even if she doesn't get to the store -- because I'm sure they blockaded or blocked the area around the store. If she can give us the scene setter on the phone, we would certainly appreciate that.

And, Dan, of course, if you would get anymore information, we would appreciate it if there's something you can offer, being from there at all.

SIMON: You bet.

LEMON: Thank you so much for that.

SIMON: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: We're going to continue with this shooting, Kyra. What's happened, they believe as many as five people shot inside of this mall. And as we have been looking at the live pictures and the video coming in from Omaha, Nebraska, on -- at this Westroads Mall at the Von Maur -- we saw -- that's the exterior of the store that we saw there. As we get more information on this, we're going to continue to monitor it.

And something is coming across right now. According to the Associated Press, I'm seeing here that police have locked down a busy Omaha mall after at least one person -- they said one person was shot this afternoon. Authorities say it is not known whether the shooter is still inside the mall or how many people may have been shot or injured. And this mall, again, is called the Westroads Mall.

PHILLIPS: And it happened here in the Von Maur store. Live pictures from brother-in-law, KETV. Just moments ago, we did see someone being brought out on a stretcher. Rescue crews working on not -- sure if it was a male or female. But one of brother-in-laws, KETV, did report that they believe it was an elderly man shot inside this store at Westroads Mall. We're still not sure yet, but we have seen -- here it is right here, that individual being carried out to the ambulance.

And it says here, as well, five people may have been shot. Apparently, a woman who answered the phone at Old Navy shortly after 2:00 says 20 to 30 customers were huddled with other employees in a back storeroom. That's basically what happened in all the stores when they heard the shots fired.

We actually heard from a woman inside the Von Maur store when it happened. She called in to one of the affiliates, KPTM, and started giving a play by play to the anchors to what had happened. She apparently heard the shots fired. She was on the first floor and said she could actually see the shots coming from either the second or the third floor. They were actually coming down through to the first floor. We've heard about 15 shots were fired -- possibly five people injured. We have seen one person being carried into the stretcher. Live pictures, once again, from KETV. We're going to keep following this story. We're working more information.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Live to Omaha, Nebraska right now, where brother-in- laws are helping us tremendously with covering this story.

We've been hearing from KPTM, KETV, also, KFAB offering us live pictures and information.

This is what we can tell you so far, that this mall -- the Westroads Mall in Omaha -- is on lockdown. The shooting happened here at the Von Maur store in that mall. Paramedics are on the scene. The shooting appears to have happened just a couple of hours ago.

We're getting reports that up to five people may have been shot. We have seen two people come out on stretchers. Rescue workers working on them intensely. You see individuals here being led out. This is proper procedure, where they come up with their hands up, so police can recognize if they are shoppers or if they are somehow involved with the situation there. It's just a safety technique.

Here's other live pictures coming from our other affiliate now at the other side of the Von Maur -- OK, we're going to listen in, actually, to the affiliate coverage now with KPTM.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All information that we're just kind of gleaning. None of it has been confirmed by police yet. But the information we are getting preliminarily is that it looks like at least five people shot. That seems to be the best estimate that we can get just from talking to different people on the scene here. We are trying to move in on the shot here.

Right now, the witnesses are telling us that this shooting probably happened either in Von Maur, JC Penney or both -- or possibly in between them near some escalators. That's the best estimate we can get on exactly where this happened. If we're looking over toward Von Maur, you can see there is a mall entrance right over there with a Panera Bread right nearby, too.

These are -- these are very popular stores, stores that people are shopping in this time of the year, especially given the fact that this is -- given the fact that this is Christmas shopping season. People are -- people are out shopping. You know, it may seem like a -- you know, a normal Wednesday afternoon, there might not be that many people out.

But believe me, during Christmas season, people have time off. This mall is crowded. You can see a lot of, you know, private vehicles here that aren't police vehicles in the parking lot. The parking lot is full before the police cars. And now the police cars are just kind of blocking everything in and off. As far as evacuations, we know that a number of people came streaming out of the mall or continued to stream out of the mall once our first crews got here. We have now seen a few people go back into JC Penney. From the looks of it, they look to be employees. So it looks like employees have been let back into JC Penney -- probably not customers at this point.

A lot of customers are probably in their cars at this point, because they can't get out. Police have this area blocked off. We've seen a few able to find selective ways to get out. But for the most part, people are kind of stuck in the parking lot here.

We are actually in a little plaza across the street from the mall and we have -- we have seen a couple of people come over here wondering what has happened. A few of those people heard gunshots. The best estimate we've been getting from people, about 15 gunshots -- possibly more than 15 gunshots. Some people, you know, say a few less. Some people say a few more. The best estimate, though, we have right now is 15.

Head over this way, Jason (ph), if you can, to the left. You can see that there's a fire truck right over there. That's another one of the many, many rescue vehicles that are on the scene right now.

PHILLIPS: We're listening to live coverage from one of brother- in-laws, KPTM, out of Omaha, Nebraska.

If you're just tuning in, there's a gunman on the loose right now after opening fire in the Westroads Mall right there in Omaha, the Von Maur store, they believe, where it happened. But now we're hearing from this reporter on the scene that it might have happened in the JC Penney or another store. We did hear from a witness inside the Von Maur store.

She had called into one of the affiliates and said she heard the shots inside that store. She was on the first floor, believed it was coming from the second or third floor -- actually saw the bullets coming through and coming downward. Two people carried out on stretchers, possibly five people shot.

Let's try and confirm some of these details. News director Tom Stanton on the phone with us now, with one of brother-in-laws, KFAB.

Tom, bring us up to date on what you're reporting there in your newsroom.

TOM STANTON, NEWS DIRECTOR, KFAB TV: Well, right now we do -- we're hearing the same thing, that five people have been shot. One employee of the Von Maur store told me that he was coming back from lunch and heard a few rounds of gunfire -- and then a few more. And then pretty soon it was in panic mode.

People were hiding in clothes racks, in rooms. They were taking shelter wherever they could. One employee told me that, according to another employee he works with, that one person was shot in the head, critically wounded, perhaps killed. That is what we're hearing here at the scene from those who were inside.

We have not gotten official police confirmation yet. Right now, the police helicopters continuing to circle overhead as the search, we believe, is still on for the gunman. We don't have any indication that any arrests have been made. We've also heard indications that there may have been a self-inflicted gunshot wound somewhere in this area. That yet has not been confirmed.

So right now it's pretty much a very chaotic scene, especially for those who were inside. We've talked to several who were able to come out. Very upset with what they saw and what they heard. Can't believe this is happening. And right now, they're out here in the parking lot. It's a very cold day here in Omaha. And many of them standing out here without coats. Some have been offered some coats as they wait out here in this cold, but...

PHILLIPS: Tom...

STANTON: ...we...

PHILLIPS: Stay with us. Stay with us. We're going to listen real quickly. New information coming to us from KETV.

CHUCK WRIGHT: Myself and another lady named Meredith (ph), who is part of the team, she went back there, too. We were both there. And we would stick our heads out once in a while and we couldn't hear anything. There was no sounds or anything. I have a cell phone. I called 9/11 and told them that there was a shooting at Von Maur. They already knew about it. They found out. They said do you have -- did you see the shooter?

Did you get the description? I said, I didn't see him. And so, we were probably in there 10 minutes and then all of a sudden we hear all this yelling. And we looked out and there were the police officers telling people to get out, you know, raise your arms, you know, come out of the building. So that's as much as I know right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that person that was hit, did she know him, the guy (INAUDIBLE)?

WRIGHT: No. He was just a customer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did it look like the guy was targeting that guy or...

WRIGHT: It looked like it was random. That's the way she said it. I mean he just leaned over and fired -- fired at the guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many shots did you hear altogether? Do you remember (INAUDIBLE)?

WRIGHT: Oh, God. I would say -- before I got in the room, I'd say 12 to 15.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was on the second floor?

WRIGHT: I was on the second floor, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you work there on the second floor?

WRIGHT: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where -- what part do you work in?

WRIGHT: I worked in what they call the men's furnishings department.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your name, sir?

WRIGHT: My name is Chuck Wright.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you spell that for us, please?

WRIGHT: W-R-I-G-H-T.

PHILLIPS: You're actually listening to an employee who worked inside the Von Maur store there. He works in men's furnishings. And he was actually -- there's a lot of chatter going on, so I'm not quite sure if he was describing what other employees were telling him or he actually saw the shooter.

But he was saying that there was a gunman leaning over the counter talking directly to an individual and then opening fire on that person. So it's possible this was a targeted shooting -- that this shooter came in looking for someone specifically and opened fire.

LEMON: And we heard from Mr. Wright there, Kyra, the man who works in men's furnishings, as he said. But, also there were people inside of the store when all of this was going on.

Francisco Barajas was one of them. You heard the shooting, Francisco. Tell us about your ordeal.

FRANCISCO BARAJAS, HEARD GUNSHOTS: Well, I was walking through just looking at clothing. And I heard five or six shots come off. They kind of caught me off guard. I -- I was looking around, just walking. Then the shots got a lot louder. And I immediately -- I'm an old -- I was in the military and from my training, I knew it was -- what kind of sound that is.

So I dropped to the floor. And I looked over and there was a guy talking on a cell phone. And I wanted to yell at him, but I was just -- I was just taking cover. I was just so shocked. And then I looked over and he was laying on the ground, apparently with a gunshot. I'm so -- it was -- the whole experience was surreal.

LEMON: Francisco, you're obviously on a cell phone. Can you make sure you speak into the phone. We're having a little trouble hearing you.

BARAJAS: OK.

LEMON: If you can put it close to your mouth so we can hear. So you said there was someone near you. First of all, which store were you in?

BARAJAS: I was in Von Maur.

LEMON: You were in the Von Maur. So you're in the store and you said someone next to you was speaking on a cell phone. Did you -- did you actually see the shooting or you just heard it?

BARAJAS: It was all audio. I did not see the shooter, but I saw a man talking on a cell phone that got shot and I saw him on the ground about five seconds later when I was looking around.

LEMON: OK. So you saw the man who got shot on this cell phone near you in the Von Maur store?

BARAJAS: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. And then five seconds later, you said he was on the ground?

BARAJAS: Yes, he was on the ground and he looked like he was -- that he got killed.

LEMON: Obviously, after -- well, you know, we don't know exactly what happened to him. So you said you had military training and you wanted to jump in. What were the other people around you doing?

BARAJAS: They were shuffling all over the place. So I started yelling at them, "Get down! Get down! Hide!" Just, really, you have no idea what's going on. And the next thing I heard was the store sirens go off. Mainly, I was just taking cover.

And then after that, there was -- there was no more gunshots. I sat around for 20 minutes and we were taken out of the store.

LEMON: Well, just real quick, since you were so close to this and we don't know for sure here, does it -- does this appear random? And the man who was near you, does it appear like this person had been targeting this person or was this just a random shooting, in your observation?

BARAJAS: In my observation, I would say that was a random shooting. He probably saw like this guy leaning over with his cell phone. And I don't think the person that I saw that was killed was targeted.

LEMON: Yes. Obviously, you are very upset by this -- and who wouldn't be -- by witnessing all of this. Anything I'm not asking you or I'm missing that you want to relay to us, Francisco?

BARAJAS: Not really. That's my description. I just feel lucky I was in the right place at the right time. I could have been that guy.

LEMON: Francisco Barajas, someone who witnessed the shooting or at least hearing some of it and seeing one of the people who was injured.

Thank you, sir.

BARAJAS: You're welcome.

PHILLIPS: We're getting incredible support from brother-in-laws out of Omaha, Nebraska. We're getting video and sound from KPTM, KETV. Also, we talked to news director Tom Stanton from KFAB, just helping us to push this story forward as we learn more about this mall shooting at Westroads Mall in Omaha. The Von Maur store is where we believe it happened. Possibly five people shot.

We're now hearing from people that were there inside the store. A worker who worked in men's furnishings actually saw the shooter -- believes that that shooter might have come in looking for someone specifically when he opened fire. We know two individuals have been taken by stretcher to the hospitals, possibly five people shot.

Here's a little more from both that have -- that were either inside the mall or on the streets. It's coming to us from brother-in- law, KETV.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were in the center part of the mall. And with all of the construction going off, it sounded like nail guns and whatnot going off. But then people just started running frantically, saying there's been a shooting in there. And I gathered my wife and kids and got out as soon as possible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see anybody running from the mall?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't see anybody -- I just seen all of the people running from the Von Maur area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me -- describe that scene for us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, it was pretty confusing because you never think it would happen around here and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe what you heard (INAUDIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounded like four or five rapid shots. It sounded like a nail gun. You know, there's so much construction going on in there, you just never -- then when you seen -- I seen an older gentleman pushing a stroller, getting out and people following behind him saying, get out, there's somebody shooting a gun in there so -- then we saw somebody with camouflage on the other side of the mall. But -- so I come over here to tell the police and they went over to the bus and that was a cam, but they don't know...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I was just standing around getting ready to go back to work and all of a sudden, I heard this poop -- you know, bang, bang, bang. And it sounded like someone shooting fireworks.

Well, I knew enough to know that that wasn't fireworks. It was probably some sort of -- you know, it's almost like you don't believe it's happening. And we didn't know if it was on the first floor or on the third floor or what -- you know, we just didn't know where he was or who it was.

And so I stood there for a minute. And all of a sudden, we were all kind of sitting shocked. And then we heard some more bang, bang, bang. And the next thing we knew, why, I kind of ran back toward the back of the floor to try to get away from whatever was happening. And Susan, who works in the same floor I do, she said she walked over to the center of the atrium and then it looked like a customer walked up alongside her. And the shooter reached over the top of the third floor and just shot the man. And she was right there. And as she looked, he was shot in the head.

PHILLIPS: That was one of the employees inside men's furnishings in the Von Maur store, where that shooting took place at Westroads Mall.

We're now hearing from brother-in-laws, apparently the gunman tried to take his own life and was unsuccessful.

LEMON: Yes, we've been speaking to Dan Simon, who works out on the West Coast and is also from Omaha, Nebraska. He mentioned to us that his sister-in-law on the way to the scene to try to give us some information about what's going on.

Kim Simon, how are you?

KIM SIMON: Hi, there.

I'm out in the parking lot, right outside of Von Maur, speaking with some folks who were in the store when this happened. I've spoken to one young woman who is just far too shaken up to get on and talk to you all herself. She was up on the third floor by customer service. It's a very open mall. And she was astounded when I told her that the reports are saying there were five shots. She said she thinks she saw at least five people dead.

And I heard some other employees also saying that they think that the count will probably be much greater than what we're thinking as we're listening to the radio and the television reports here.

It is an open mall. So the ricochet -- it could have maybe sounded like far -- many more shots than actually occurred. But those that were in the store are very shaken up and just waiting outside. They aren't able to leave. They're aren't able to go back in. And they're just waiting for the word on what to do next.

LEMON: And, Kim, I mean, you know, from your brother-in-law doing this, I imagine you would -- you know, you know kind of how to do it.

Do you have anyone there near who can talk to us about their experience near your cell phone, who we can relay some questions to?

K. SIMON: I'll try and get someone on the phone. I did have someone who was speaking with you all just a few minutes ago. Let me see if I can get someone else.

LEMON: And just, Kim, just -- we're going to continue here. Just jump back in if you find someone.

K. SIMON: OK.

LEMON: We're going to leave you on the line and we'll and I'll update the viewers.

In case you're just joining us here in the CNN NEWSROOM, there's a -- you can see there's been a shooting at a mall in Omaha, Nebraska. It is called the Westroads Mall. And we believe the shooting, according to witnesses, happened in the Von Maur department store. A very busy time because of the Christmas shopping.

And as you look at the video here, Kyra mentioned it earlier, you can see this is how they ask folks to come out of the store, with their hands up. It is just procedure so that they know no one is carrying a weapon when they do this.

PHILLIPS: And if you're just tuning in, we've seen at least two people taken out in stretchers. We heard from Dan Simon's sister-in- law, who is there on the scene. She lives there. And saying that people are reporting -- that were inside the store -- they might have seen more people shot, more dead bodies possibly inside. The count might come out. But we can't confirm that yet. We only know that we're hearing possibly five shot. Two taken in stretchers that we have seen. And the shooter, apparently trying to take his own life, but was unsuccessful.

LEMON: Absolutely. And, of course, in situations like this, it is very fluid, because it's unfolding right in front of us.

Are we going to go to Wolf or are we going to give an update on Wall Street real quick?

PHILLIPS: Wolf Blitzer is going to take it from here.

LEMON: OK. We're going to go to Wolf Blitzer.

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