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Nancy Grace

Gunman Kills 8 and Himself at Omaha Mall

Aired December 05, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight: Shots ring out at an Omaha, Nebraska, mall packed with people doing their Christmas shopping. Multiple gunshots go off as hundreds scramble for cover. A gunman armed with a rifle opens fire on numerous shoppers and employees. Nine people are now dead, several others injured, some of them critically, in the shooting rampage at the Westroads Mall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Omaha. Gunshots, chaos, the scene unfolding after someone opens fire on unsuspecting shoppers at a mall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just turning around, getting ready to go back to work, and all of a sudden, I heard this poop -- you know, bang, bang, bang. And it sounded like someone shooting fireworks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The shooting took place in the Westroads Mall, in Omaha, Nebraska, in the Von Maur store, which is a department store, apparently in the furniture department. Witnesses say it appeared the gunman was targeting a specific person. One witness said that person was shot in the head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. First tonight, breaking news. A gunman goes on a deadly shooting rampage at a crowded Omaha, Nebraska, mall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were a lot of shots. It sounded like two rounds of shots because there was a round of shots, then it stopped, and then there was another round of shots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this point, we can tell you that we have confirmed nine people that have been -- that have died from their injuries. We have five other people that have suffered injuries, have been transported to the area hospitals. The person we believe to be the shooter has died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

At this point, we believe that it was a rifle. The person that we believe to be the shooter came to the mall in a vehicle, so we will be looking for that.

We have investigators in the mall. They are interviewing everyone that we can possibly talk to that may have any information about what happened inside that mall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight. Pandemonium, horror and death at the most popular shopping mall in Omaha, Nebraska. Tonight that mall is a crime scene, information pouring in by the minute about the rampage that has left nine dead and a slew of answered questions.

For more on all of these late-breaking developments, let`s go straight out to Brian Barks, news director at Newstalk 1290 KKAR. Brian, what is the very latest?

BRIAN BARKS, NEWSTALK 1290 KKAR: The very latest, as far as the victims are concerned, as you mentioned, nine dead, including the gunman, five wounded, two of those still in critical condition. Just before 2:00 o`clock this afternoon Central time, a teenager apparently dressed in some type of a camouflage or military-style outfit with a rifle went into a department store and opened fire. Multiple, multiple shots were fired. We`re hearing anywhere from 15 to 20, 30, maybe even 40 shots were fired before the gunman took his life.

Now, once the 911 call was placed, it took Omaha police six minutes to respond to the scene, and then they immediately sealed off the mall and went in for a search for the gunman. And before they arrived there, the gunman turned the gun on himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have information just in to our studios. We can now tell you police believe they know the gunman`s name and they are giving that name as Robert A. Hawkins, once again, dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound within the mall, believed to be about 19 or 20 years old.

Keith Oppenheim, CNN correspondent on the phone with us, what can you tell us? Because we understand that this involves a suicide note and a mother going to the police with that note.

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Jane, just let me tell you that in the about the past two minutes, I`m just coming on to the scene. I`ve just flown into Omaha. I`m in a cab right now, and I`m coming to the -- I`m going around the Von Maur department store where this incident happened. And it`s interesting just what I see because the whole mall, which is, you know, fairly large for this area, is surrounded by police units. And there are a lot of vehicles that have been left behind presumably by patrons inside the mall.

What we know about the suicide note you refer to is that, according to our police sources, that the gunman, Robert A. Hawkins, left a note at home, and his mother found it and she turned in that note to authorities. Exactly what the note said, I don`t know. But our source said it`s something to the effect that he wanted to go out in style.

Again, just describing the scene here, lots of police vehicles with lights flashing, and really almost like a ghost town, with all these cars in the parking lot, but no people there, just police.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I understand that they are suggesting that people who are concerned about injured family members or deceased family members go to the Hampton Inn (ph), which is nearby. This is kind of a staging area where they can get some kind of help?

OPPENHEIM: That`s something that you know that I don`t, to be honest with you, because I`m in transit here. But it is common for police to use central points exactly like that so they can unify information and give people a place to go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Brian Barks, news director talk -- Newstalk 1290 KKAR, what can you tell us about this Hampton Inn? Because obviously, pandemonium, people upset, let`s say somebody hasn`t come home and they can`t reach this loved one, they might assume, Oh, maybe they were in the mall. There`s a lot of fear. What can you tell us about that, Brian?

BARKS: The Hampton Inn is pretty much catty-corner to where the Westroads Mall is located, and they`re just using that, again, as you mentioned, as kind of a -- as a staging area. Police are saying the mall itself obviously closed down right now, will be closed, and police say that they will stay there until they determine exactly what happened and why.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And of course, all this happening in Omaha, Nebraska.

We have a caller in, Max from Nebraska. What is your question, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, we are not going to go to Max. But one fascinating aspect of all of this, Mike Brooks, is that President Bush was in town earlier today in Omaha and left approximately 40, 45 minutes before this shooting, this rampage erupted. And we also hear that there was a six-minute response time by authorities to the mall. Now, could authorities have been, let`s say, on the other side of because they were providing security for the president?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No. I think, in fact, a six-minute response time is good. I mean, all day -- we`ve been on this all day on Headline News, and we`ve been hearing from witnesses on the scene, nothing but praise for the police, for the fire department, for the emergency medical service people who were there at the scene. We`ve heard witness after witness just say that they were there extremely quickly.

Now, the Secret Service, they do have a detail there and I`m sure they will look into this, but right now, it looks like that this was a lone gunman, Jane. But there`s still a lot going on. Now, they`re trying to put all the pieces of this puzzle together.

There`s also -- there was -- last Friday evening, there was also an incident at this mall where someone let security know that they found what appeared to be a hand grenade in the parking lot of this particular mall. The Omaha Police Department bomb unit was called to the scene, and apparently, it was a pineapple type grenade. They went ahead and cleared the scene. But we don`t know if this had any connection whatsoever to do with this. But again, just very, very strange that this just happened at this mall this past Friday evening.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s certainly very bizarre. And we can also say that CNN is reporting this is the fourth mall shooting this year in America. This is a serious problem. We`re going to get into that in just a moment.

We do have Max from Nebraska back on the line. Max, what is your question, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I would like to know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... do you have any information on the suicide note?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s what we`re trying to find out. Now, we heard some of the basics, and perhaps the most disturbing thing about it -- and again, this is information just coming in, so it may change.

But let`s go psychologist Caryn Stark. Here are some things that we know, possibly, about this suspect, who died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He left a note that his mother apparently took in to police. He`s approximately 19 or 20. And this note said something about going out in style.

Also, some of the people who were inside the mall and who saw him in action said that he was acting in a very bizarre manner and actually shot a teddy bear as he was randomly going about shooting human beings. He was also wearing camouflage. What does all this tell you, Caryn?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, what it tells me is, it`s very typical of this kind of a person who does this -- if you think of Virginia Tech, that person -- that he has all this suppressed rage and he needs to take it out. He needs to have a cathartic rage event happen. He`s going to kill other people before he kills himself, probably somebody who blames or projects his problems onto other people, onto bad luck, doesn`t feel good about himself, a loner, very depressed.

Somebody -- if you think about a teddy bear, he is angry and he`s going to get negative attention. He is going to go out in style.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And somebody who can tell us all about the horror and the pandemonium this man created, Todd Trimpe. He was at the mall. I believe, Todd, you were kind of pulling up as this whole thing was unfolding, so you kind of saw the pandemonium from the outside as people were exiting with their hands up and just absolutely in fear. Tell us about all that.

TODD TRIMPE, WITNESS: Well, I was in the -- I was in the area for business, and I saw the large police presence at the mall and curiosity got me. I pulled into the parking lot to see what had happened. Especially because of the grenade being found on the prior Friday, I thought that there was some other little prank or hoax that maybe had happened, and nobody had any idea that it was something of this magnitude.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You apparently saw, while you were there, something else happen very dramatic because authorities had gotten word that the suspect was wearing camouflage. Take it from there.

TRIMPE: Yes. I had seen a large police presence at a bus terminal about a block away from the -- about a block away from the mall, at the edge of the parking lot, and I headed up there to just get a little closer look. And I saw that there was a man in camouflage crouched under a bus bench, kind of curled up, apparently trying to hide. But there wasn`t a whole lot to hide behind. And there was a large police presence. They made a perimeter around him and he wasn`t going anywhere.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, this was a so-called suspect, possible suspect, but it turns out, Todd, that this wasn`t the actual suspect. This just happened to be another person innocently wearing camouflage that...

TRIMPE: I believe so.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That is absolutely wild. Keith Oppenheim, CNN correspondent, fill us in a little bit on this because we were hearing conflicting reports throughout the day that, Oh, well, they`ve arrested somebody outside the mall, and then later, we hear somebody died with a self-inflicted gunshot wound inside the mall.

OPPENHEIM: Yes. My understanding is that the gunman was -- killed himself inside the mall. And it is also our understanding that the shootings happened in a specific store, in the Von Maur store, as opposed to other locations in the mall.

Now, right now, Jane, I just want to let you know I`ve made my way to where the satellite trucks have been cordoned off, but we see the mobile command center just outside the J.C. Penney store, with American Red Cross and Salvation Army support. But this is where the police are based to start their investigation. So I`m getting really my first raw look at the scene right now, and it looks pretty active, but a ghost town in terms of people, just their cars left behind.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And once again, we are mentioning that this is the fourth shooting at a shopping mall this year. This sadly has become a horrible trend.

Mike Brooks, former D.C. detective, as well as having served on the FBI terrorism task force, what about it about malls and security? I mean, obviously, they`re easy targets because they`re so open. The whole point is to get people to go into these malls, and hundreds and hundreds of people were in this very popular mall with more than 100 stores today.

BROOKS: Yes, there`s 135 stores in this Westroads Mall, Jane. Now, it`s always looked upon that shopping malls could be what they consider soft targets. You know, when you talk about terrorism, that`s one of the things you always say, Well, is this a soft terrorism target? But when you have a random gunman like this, it`s very, very difficult to guard against.

But I can tell you there has been training -- in fact, there was a training program that rolled out this past April. It was a joint effort between the George Washington Homeland Security Policy Institute and the International Council of Shopping Centers. I was actually part of that group, putting together an awareness program for security officers in malls dealing with chemical, biological, radiological, things like this, on dealing with liaison, with your local law enforcement, with the FBI, who was also there on the scene today.

And again, but just an awareness -- but we also -- citizens who are going to malls, especially this time of year, when you have so many people there, you have to be aware of your surroundings. And I want to emphasize to our viewers, if you`re anywhere at a place like this and your gut tells you that something just doesn`t look right, let somebody know about it. Let them investigate it because we don`t want anything like this happening.

And you know, now and then, when you hear things like this, now and then, you might have copycats. We hope that doesn`t happen with this particular shooting, but it`s something that everyone has to be aware of. And I think this is also kind of a vigilance alert for everyone during this time of year, during the holiday season.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And again, all this happening in Omaha, Nebraska. The calls are coming in, particularly from Nebraska. Carol, your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`d like to know if this man had a mental illness and if he was on or off of his medication.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, it`s very early to say any of that. Caryn Stark, psychologist, the information is just coming in. But to repeat some of the points which bear repeating, he was wearing camouflage, they believe he was a loner in the sense that they believe he drove himself to this mall by himself and did not have any accomplice. He left a suicide note saying he wanted to go out in style, reportedly. This what`s just coming in. And he also was wearing this camouflage outfit.

You know, Caryn, when I see that, maybe I think camouflage -- does that have symbolic significance, I`m at war with the world, the world is my enemy?

STARK: Without a doubt. That`s why it was as though he was dressed to commit these crimes. And you have to think that there is some kind of a behavioral disorder that`s going on here, probably sociopath with other paranoid tendencies, because he seemed to be out to get people. He wants to go out with a splash.

And also, Jane, if you take a look at -- it`s often these guys are -- they`re just about to enter the adult world, and I don`t think they feel equipped to be able to handle it, sort of like you shoot the teddy bear and you`re shooting the innocence of where you came from and where you need to go now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and if you think about, like, the Virginia Tech shooter these are loners, young people, people who seem alienated. They can`t seem to connect to another human being. They can`t seem to get a very genuine relationship with other people.

We`re going to learn more about this suspect, clearly, in the coming hours and days.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." A California high school chemistry teacher is accused of using his own classroom lab to make methamphetamine. Jeff Scheidemantel goes on the police radar when he tries to buy red phosphorus on an overseas Web site, that phosphorus a key ingredient for making meth. A police raid at the teacher`s Bakersfield home turns up chemicals and recipes to make the drug, plus weapons. The 32-year-old is on paid administrative leave tonight, facing charges of drug possession, drug manufacturing and child endangerment.

Also tonight, on a much lighter and happier note, check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins on her baby blog. And coming up soon, exclusive pictures and video of the twins -- yes, the twins -- will be up on Nancy`s baby blog. That`s all at CNN.com/nancygrace. And remember, Nancy Grace makes her much anticipated return right here on Headline News on January 7. Mark it on your calendar, 8:00 o`clock Eastern.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were in the center part of the mall, and with all the construction going on, it sounded like nail guns and whatnot going off. But then people just started running frantically, saying there`s been a shooting in there. And I gathered my wife and kids and got out as soon as possible. I didn`t see anybody -- I just seen all the people running from the Von Maur area.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it was pretty confusing because you`d never think this would happen here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. A rampage and pandemonium at this very popular shopping mall in Omaha, Nebraska. Nine dead, including apparently the gunman, and five injured, some of them very seriously.

For the very latest on their conditions, let`s go to Dr. Marty Makary, who is a physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins. Fill us in on these injuries, sir.

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, it sounds like there`s an injury to the armpit in one patient, and that`s often associated with a collapsed lung. There`s also two patients, one with a bleeding injury from a gunshot to an arm and perhaps one injury that led to somebody falling, and they have a head injury. So that`s what we know right now. There are also two other patients involved, we believe.

You know, Jane, we`re seeing more and more gunshot injuries in medicine that involve multiple gunshots, closer-range gunshots and injuries involving children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And apparently, two hospitals at least are involved in treating the injured, University of Nebraska Medical Center, Creighton University Medical Center, as well. How do they coordinate? When something like this happens, does an alert go out to these hospitals, saying, Hey, you guys have to coordinate so we know where to send the patients and which hospital to send which patient to?

MAKARY: Absolutely. This is essentially what we all train for. Once a year, we have a disaster protocol and we go into high alert mode, call everybody in the hospital that`s got a set of free hands. I can tell you those are two outstanding hospitals.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know, there was talk of, well, one has trauma facilities and the other might not, and I`m not totally clear on that, but I heard the idea of some kind of rotation of the trauma. Do you know anything about that?

MAKARY: Sure. There are a limited number of trauma surgeons in any community, and they often rotate in hospitals. But both these hospitals are ACS, or American College of Surgery-accredited level one trauma centers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there are so many heroes throughout this story, those at the hospital, working in surgeries to save people`s lives, the police officers who arrived on the scene, employees who helped shoppers hide. We`re going to talk about all of that in just a moment.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." The search for a missing Yonkers, New York, man police say maybe the victim of foul play, 29-year-old James Tony Devine, last seen Friday night leaving a Manhattan bar. Surveillance video from earlier that evening shows Devine outside the bar, talking on his cell phone. According to phone records, that was his last call before he vanished. Devine last seen wearing jeans, a blue shirt and a brown jacket. He is 5-10, weighs 170 pounds. If you have any information at all, please call Yonkers police, 914-377-7299.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) the escalator to the second floor. I was stepping off the escalator, and I heard loud booms. And she turned around and walked towards the escalator, and I grabbed her and we started running to the back. I don`t think anybody believed it was gunshots. But we were hiding in a clothes rack in the back of the men`s department. And we heard about 35 to 40 shots. They were just echoing through the whole thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. As we have been reporting, the shooter apparently dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound at the mall.

Let`s bring in Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney. Starting with Renee, does this leave the victims in the lurch, in a sense? They have no one to face in terms of facing this person who did this.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Why, because he killed himself? Well, the way you can look at it is that there`s no trial because this obviously would be a death penalty case, if there`s no insanity defense. Now, you may find that this child was on anti-depressants, was -- as a matter of fact, we already know that he was out on bond and facing some misdemeanor charges. But shoulda, woulda, coulda -- what could we have done to prevent this? Like Mike says, it`s a soft target.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Holly Hughes, jump in.

HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I have to agree with Renee. We know for a fact because one of his friends was interviewed and told us he was on anti-depressants. So clearly, there was some mental disturbance going on. He was seeking treatment. We don`t know if he was on them today, Jane. But I think this particular fact that he killed himself is going to save the victims the trauma of a trial. It is, in a good sense, finality for them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I was just standing around, getting ready to go back to work, and all of a sudden I heard this bang, bang, bang, and it sounded like someone shooting fireworks. Well, I knew enough to know that that wasn`t fireworks. It`s almost like you don`t believe what`s happening.

And we didn`t know if it was on the first floor or on the third floor or what, we just didn`t know where he was or who it was. And so I stood there for a minute and all of a sudden, we all kind of stood in shock and then we heard some more, bang, bang, bang.

And the next thing we knew, why, I kind of ran back towards the back of the floor to try to get away from whatever was happening. And Susan (ph), who works on the same floor I do, she said she walked over to the center of the atrium and it looked like a customer walked up alongside her and the shooter reached over the top of the third floor and just shot the man. And she was right there and as she looked he was shot in the head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Obscene violence in Omaha, Nebraska. A mall shooting, a rampage that leaves nine dead, including the shooter, and five injured, some of them critically. We have on the phone with us tonight Kevin Kleine, this is a woman who hid in the store during the shooting.

First of all, Kevin, we are so happy that you are with us tonight talking, that you survived. Did you survive unscathed and what can you tell us about what you saw and heard?

KEVIN KLEINE, WITNESSED SHOOTING: Yes. We survived and it was a horrible situation and I just -- you know, I want to say that my heart goes out to all the victims` families. It was a horrible situation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a nightmare. What a nightmare to be -- and you were there with apparently your daughter? You have a young daughter?

KLEINE: Yes, actually I was -- we stopped there to waste some time before I had to go get my son at 3:00, and I was going to go get a few Christmas presents. And my daughter, who`s 4, and I were there about 10 minutes and actually were going to go up to the third floor because she wanted to get a pink headband and that was where the children`s area was.

And kind of turned to walk that way and heard four gunshots and then a pause and then four more gunshots. And we kind of didn`t know. She actually said, maybe -- mom, maybe they`re hammering, maybe they`re doing construction. So, yes. It was pretty scary after that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did you do?

KLEINE: We -- I kind of looked around at everybody. It wasn`t packed. So there was about six people around me. We ran to the dressing room, towards the back of the dressing room, there was a stock room, we got in there, I had her sit on the floor and we called the police, we barricaded, there were two doors, one on each side, sat behind the doors and barricaded the doors with the tables and racks and waited for police about a half an hour.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you were inside the Von Maur department store where this broke out?

KLEINE: Yes, yes. We were on the.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

KLEINE: Sorry.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.

KLEINE: We were on the second floor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And apparently the gunman was found dead with a self- inflicted gunshot wound on the third floor. And I had heard reports of him sort of shooting down. Can you paint a picture of like how he moved? I understand that he shot a teddy bear at one point while he was shooting people. Can you paint a picture of what you felt his movements were as you ran and hid?

KLEINE: I actually -- when I heard it, I didn`t know if they were coming from the bottom, the first floor or the third floor, I just knew that they were right there. They were close. That`s all I knew. And I didn`t wait, I didn`t look, I just ran and I just wanted to make sure that my daughter and I were in some safe area.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And while you were huddled there, did you see other people trying to sort of flee to safety as well or crying?

KLEINE: Yes, there were six of us in the room, we were in a storage room so we put stuff in front of the doors and racks and underneath the handles because there were no locks. And I just told my little girl, I said, just sit here and pray and I`m going to try to do what I can.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I`m sure you must have been doubly scared not just for your own life, but for your little baby girl`s life. What thoughts ran through you? It`s so interesting when people are facing these kinds of life and death moments, what they think of. Do they feel, well, this is important in life, or, I`m going to do this if I get out of here alive?

KLEINE: Well, I just thought -- my first thought was, what am I going to do if this man comes through this door? And my second thought was, well, if he comes through this door, I`m going to stand in front of it. I mean, I will do anything I can to keep it from happening. And I just -- I thank God that everything went our way today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I am so happy and you are -- all the people there, so courageous. How did people in general respond, I mean, yes, there was pandemonium, but it wasn`t like a stampede where people were not thinking of anybody else but themselves, you get the sense that people were still being very civilized despite this uncivilized experience.

KLEINE: Yes, I mean, we went into that back room and there were six strangers, we were all strangers and we all -- you know, we all just -- it just seemed like we just kind of worked together to make sure -- I mean, there was another lady that was pregnant and when I was helping the lady to pick up the racks, I asked her to hold my daughter, you know, because I wanted her to be safe. And we just all tried to work together to make sense of it all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know, it`s so important to discuss that because this is very depressing when we cover stories like this. It just seems like you want to throw up your hands, what`s the world coming to? This is the fourth mall shooting and what`s wrong with people?

But then when we hear stories like this of people banding together and acting in such a courageous fashion during a time of crisis when they`re terrified, it warms your heart. Did you get that feeling too?

KLEINE: Yes, oh, yes. You know, everybody there helped us and we did what we could and thank gosh the people that I was with and the people that were there in this room with me were safe, and like I said, my heart goes ought to the families of all of those victims that were there today. I just -- I couldn`t imagine.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you speak for all of us, all of us here at the NANCY GRACE show extend our condolences to those who lost family members or whose family members are injured and fighting for their lives tonight.

Calls coming in. Shirley from South Carolina, your question, ma`am.

Hello? All right, let`s go back to John -- actually I think we have somebody new on the phone, John Bishop, news director, KLIN Radio.

You are out of Lincoln, Nebraska, what can you tell us about the information that is filtering in minute by minute about this particular suspect? We`ve heard about a suicide note, we heard he shot a teddy bear. He was wearing camouflage, what else do we know?

JOHN BISHOP, NEWS DIR., KLIN RADIO: Well, we know that there may have been as many as three notes, all with some hint of suicide in them. One that was addressed to the family or at least to the guardian that he was living with, apologizing, saying he was sorry that things couldn`t work out.

There was another note written to friends, and there was a third note that apparently contained some details of where he wanted his possessions to go, a will of some sort. But we`re not sure which of those notes, whether it be the friends of the family note that had this statement about wanting to go out famous or go out doing something big.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now let`s bring in the lawyers. That`s new information that we`re just getting now, more than one note. What do you make of it Renee Rockwell?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, my question would be, when were the notes written? Whoever had the notes, how long did they sit on the notes? Did they bring them to the police department? Did the police just sit on their hands? I think not, but it certainly becomes a question for who else might be responsible, at least for the delay.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Holly Hughes, there always seems to be foreshadowing when something this horrible happens. I mean, if you look back at the Virginia Tech massacre, there were teachers who came forward and said, I tried to help this guy and I went to the administration and said, this guy is out of control. And it doesn`t seem that anybody listens until it`s too late sometimes.

HOLLY HUGHES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, Jane, that`s why we have expressions like hindsight is 20/20, because we do look back and then we begin to question behaviors that at the time may not have seemed that abnormal. And you know, his friends were saying he was taking anti- depressants but they really had no idea.

One of his friends said, I had no idea he would go this far, when I heard it was him, and he had killed himself, he said, I didn`t know he was suicidal. So I think what happens is when he look back, Jane, we look at that with a knowing eye and you might not have necessarily known how bad it was ahead of time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Caryn Stark, hindsight is always 20/20, right?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s correct, And I think that people are really averse to making that kind of assumption that someone is that sick, that they have that many problems. They really try to keep it to themselves and believe that everything can be worked out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And unfortunately when it comes to mental illness, it only gets worse most of the time. So wishful thinking doesn`t help.

On a much, much happier note, coming soon, exclusive pictures and video of the twins who will make their debut on Nancy`s Baby Blog. In the meantime, check out the latest messages from Nancy about Lucy Elizabeth and John David. It`s all at cnn.com/nancygrace.

And remember, Nancy Grace makes her much anticipated return right here on HEADLINE NEWS on January 7th, 8 p.m. sharp. It`s a date.

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(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First couple shots I didn`t acknowledge it until I climbed up on the scaffold and looked over the temporary wall that we were working behind. And I see a group of people running out. And from there I heard another round of shots, another 10 or so.

I got down myself because I wasn`t taking no chances and just -- we helped get the customers from that store to the back of the store along with the rest of the people we were with, and just tried to head out until we were -- until we got to OK to be released.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. A community in Omaha, Nebraska, in total shock tonight after a horrifying and sudden massacre at the height of holiday shopping. For the very latest let`s go straight out to Keith Oppenheim, CNN correspondent at the scene.

What is the very latest, Keith?

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me lay the scene a little bit for you, Jane. First of all, as you can see behind me, there are a whole lot of vehicles in this lot behind me. And we presume the obvious, that these are vehicles that have been left behind by patrons.

Now I`ll ask my photographer John (ph) just to zoom in a little bit to the background, just under the J.C. Penney sign. And you can se the Omaha Police Command Center van. That`s where the police are stationed right now to deal with this crime scene, which is really the entire mall.

You know, one thing I wanted to mention to you, Jane, as we come back over here, is that just about 10 minutes ago, I had a chance to speak to Jim Von Maur, the Von Maur department store, on the other side of those buildings behind me, was where most if not all of these shootings took place.

He is a corporate executive of the family business. And he came here, and I asked him, did he know if any of the people who died were employees of the store? He didn`t know, and he was clearly stunned by what`s happening.

So we`re just sort of getting our feet on the scene here, trying to get a sense of what the investigation will be reveal. But as we have been reporting, nine people, including the gunman, killed in a store on the other side of the mall behind me. Back to you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And five injured and so many other victimized, people`s lives just devastated in that community. The phones are lighting up, Kivvetta in Nebraska, your question, ma`am.

CALLER: Yes, I just wanted to say that this is not an isolated incident. We just recently had a 6-year-old child that was killed by a 14- year-old. And my question is, you know, what are we doing as far as our children that are in the foster care system and preparing them when they are released as far as being adults to operate in the world?

This young man was supposed to be on his medication, how do we know that he was taking his meds, was he seeing his doctor? I mean, there are just a lot of unanswered questions and it`s just really sad that it had to happen this way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I agree with you, it`s very sad that it had to happen. Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, and Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, you have both spoken about the fact that there will no criminal trial because the suspect is dead. But what about civil cases, Renee? Do you think that there are possible lawsuits in the works stemming from this, and if so against who?

ROCKWELL: Can I jump back to the criminal question first?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure.

ROCKWELL: We`re not totally satisfied -- I`m not yet that there won`t be criminal charges. First of all, where did he get the gun? Did somebody allow him to have access to the gun? Did he steal the gun? A 19-year-old does not need to have a gun like that.

Secondly, where did he get the medication? Was he supposed to be monitored? Was his medication -- was somebody else on anti-depressants that would allow him access to that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but he`s an adult. He`s a 19-year-old, supposedly -- or 20-year-old.

ROCKWELL: I`m just saying, but he`s too young to have that kind of a gun, would you agree with me.

(CROSSTALK)

HUGHES: What`s too young to have that kind of a gun? Nobody needs that kind of a gun, guys, I mean, it`s an assault rival. There`s absolutely no need for that unless you are in a war. OK? The guys in Iraq need that kind of gun. There`s not too young, there`s not too old, Renee, nobody needs that kind of gun.

ROCKWELL: Well, Holly, just to disagree with you, the gun was not illegal, I don`t think. We`ll have to have more investigation about how rapidly the bullets were going off. But I don`t think that that`s an illegal gun. It would be illegal for somebody that is under 21 to be walking around with that gun. Did he get it from another adult? That`s where I`m going with that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hold your thoughts, we are going to be back in a moment, but first tonight, "CNN Heroes."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAYLA CORNALE, "YOUNG WONDER": My cousin Lorena, she`s 11 years old and she`s diagnosed with a form of autism. I knew that at some times at family gatherings she would not want to talk to others or she would be to herself or just little things like that. But I just saw that she had an interest in music. She might not necessarily remember something that we say to her, but she would remember song lyrics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember this song? You`ve listened to that before.

CORNALE: So I thought if she likes music, why don`t I create something that she likes already and then she can build upon that?

My name is Kayla Cornale, and I`m from Burlington, Ontario, Canada. I thought that if I could maybe teach her a few letters of the alphabet or teach her a little bit about the emotions and how to express herself, she would feel better about herself and we would all be able to interact with her better, because she has got a great sense of humor, she is a very fun kid to be around.

That`s what drove me to take a different route. And I thought maybe I could take this 26 letters of the alphabet and just place them on the central 26 keys of the piano keyboard. So to identify each letter with a sound, rather than just an isolated symbol that you can`t really have any feeling for.

K, A, Y.

After working a year exclusively on the piano keys, I saw that she had now mastered the alphabet. So I moved to the computer keyboard.

You said it before, what`s this letter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s A.

CORNALE: That is A.

I started to implement the use of animation, bringing this to the computer, and when I did that, she just, boom, immediately had a lot of interest in it. We got to the point where she could sit down at the computer and for over an hour and I would have to tell her that the lesson was over, she would want to keep going.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Fast- breaking developments coming in to the studio as we speak. CNN has now obtained a photograph of the individual police believe to be the gunman who killed eight people and himself at the shopping mall in Omaha, Nebraska.

His name, Robert Hawkins, he is believed to be 19 or 20 years old. He wrote several suicide notes, reportedly including one that said: "I want to go out in style." Those are the reports.

And that is the young man, Mike Brooks, former D.C. police detective, that they probably have on surveillance video. Tell us about that situation, the security surveillance situation at the malls.

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Jane, they apparently had this car in a parking lot. So they were able to see exactly where he came into the store. But there is a lot of other questions that need to be answered.

Right now the whole mall is considered a crime scene. A lot of questions need to be answered. Did he in fact act alone? We don`t know that for sure as of yet. We`ll find out more as the investigation goes on. What is the true motive behind this? Are they going to find anything else out?

In fact, they`re probably at his house right now executing a search warrant. Did he have a MySpace page? Did he have anything on computers? Did anyone else know about this? These are all questions that they are going to answer. This is early on in the investigation, but I can tell you, they`re going to check for fingerprints on the shell casings.

Were his fingerprints the only ones on there? Was anybody else`s fingerprints? This weapon, I`m hearing from sources, we are hearing early on today it was an M16-style weapon, we don`t know if it was semiautomatic or fully automatic.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you for that, Mike Brooks. A tragedy all the way around.

Tonight let`s stop to remember Navy Seaman Apprentice Shayna Ann Schnell, just 19 from Tell City, Indiana, recently enlisting. She was a master-at-arms, serving a Naval security force. She loved the outdoors and horseback-riding. She also loved baking, arts and crafts, and watching her favorite Disney movies, devoted to family and friends, she leaves behind parents Doug (ph) and Susan (ph), sister Nicole (ph), two brothers and her grandparents. Shayna Ann Schnell, an American hero.

We want to thank all of our guests tonight for their insight. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very sad case with us. A special happy 65th (ph) birthday to a friend of the NANCY GRACE show, nurse Donna-Kay, happy birthday, my dear. And remember to visit Nancy`s Baby Blog at cnn.com/nancygrace. See you tomorrow night right here at 8:00 p.m. sharp. Until them, have a terrific and please make it a safe evening.

END