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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Oprah Campaigns for Barack; CIA Destroys Interrogation Tapes; China and the WTO
Aired December 07, 2007 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Wolf.
Tonight, rising controversy over the CIA's destruction of videotape showing harsh interrogation methods. That controversy is spreading to the White House, Capitol Hill and the campaign trail. We'll have that story, all the day's news, and much more straight ahead tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Friday, December 7. Live from New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Christine Romans.
ROMANS: Good evening everybody. Outrage tonight over the destruction of CIA videotapes showing harsh interrogations of al Qaeda suspects. Congressional Democrats have written to the U.S. attorney general demanding a complete investigation. CIA Director General Michael Hayden says the agency destroyed those tapes to protect the identities of CIA officers.
Kelli Arena has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lawmakers want to know if anyone at the CIA broke the law by destroying those interrogation tapes.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: What would cause the CIA to take this action? The answer is obvious, cover-up.
ARENA: They're also angry about being left in the dark. In a letter to employees, CIA Director Michael Hayden said that congressional leaders were told of the intention to destroy the tapes ahead of time, but Congresswoman Jane Harman, who was the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee and other lawmakers insist that's not true.
REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: No one ever informed me that tapes were being destroyed.
ARENA: The tapes were made in 2002 after the president approved severe interrogation techniques for terror detainees, which included water boarding or simulated drowning. Government officials with knowledge of what was on them say they included interrogations of two prisoners, one of them al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah (ph). The CIA says the tapes were destroyed in 2005 right in the middle of a major debate over whether the agency's actions amounted to torture. They were never made available in any terrorism trial or even to the 9/11 Commission.
DANIEL MARCUS, 9/11 COMM. GEN. COUNSEL: If the commission had known at that stage that videotapes of some of the detainee interrogations existed, we would have insisted on seeing them.
ARENA: Hayden says the tapes were destroyed to protect CIA interrogators, if their identities were ever leaked, he argued, they could be targeted by al Qaeda, but it's not flying.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: It's a pathetic excuse. They'd have to burn every document at the CIA that has the identity of an agent on it under that theory.
ARENA (on camera): The CIA maintains there was no legal or internal reason to keep those tapes. In the meantime, the Justice Department says it has received the congressional request to investigate and that it's in the process of fact finding.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Democratic presidential candidate Senator Hillary Clinton today said the videotapes raised, quote, "very serious concerns about the CIA's conduct. Senator Clinton said it's vital to find out what happened in this case to protect the reputation of the United States around the world.
A Republican presidential candidate, Senator John McCain, said the CIA should not have destroyed the videotapes. He said the CIA's action will harm the agency's credibility. Senator McCain today declared he will win the New Hampshire primary election next month. The senator hoping he can repeat his success in New Hampshire seven years ago and reinvigorate his presidential campaign.
John King has our report from Hampstead, New Hampshire. John?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christine, John McCain begins nearly every event here in snowy New Hampshire by joking that the folks at the Phoenix Chamber of Commerce ask him to pass along that it's 80 and sunny back home in Arizona. That John McCain is joking at all these days ought to tell you something.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): The telltale signs are everywhere. Winter's blanket means the wait is almost over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
KING: And the candidate written off in the summer heat is angling for another New Hampshire surprise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) said before, it will never be said enough. Welcome home.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
KING: The diner stops and town hall start early and can run late.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to do the (INAUDIBLE) things. First we have got to eliminate the waste (INAUDIBLE) from spending practices and then take on Social Security and Medicare.
Listen, I thank you for being here...
KING: Independents powered his surprise primary win here in 2000, but are overwhelmingly against the Iraq war. McCain talks about Thanksgiving visit with the troops and insists things are finally looking up.
MCCAIN: Senator Edwards used to call it the McCain surge and the McCain strategy. He doesn't call it that anymore, but he used to do that. I knew what was the right strategy and that strategy is succeeding.
KING: At every turn, reminders of the issue that sent him from front runner to frustrated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I am truly really concerned for this country as far as illegal immigration is concerned.
MCCAIN: So I tried to fix it.
KING: He tried by pushing a path to citizenship for millions here illegally. Listen now.
MCCAIN: So it seems to me my lesson is secure the borders first. First secure the borders.
KING: Lesson learned doesn't necessarily translate into comeback kid. Money is still tight, but unlike 2000, at least at the moment, Independents here are leading left.
ANDREW SMITH, UNIVERSITY OF N.H. SURVEY CENTER: They're going to be voting in the Democratic primary so he doesn't have those people to go to, and I think that's the major reason you're seeing John McCain running a much more traditional Republican campaign this time.
KING: But McCain has clawed back into second place here and hopes the backing of this state's conservative "Union Leader" newspaper brings more progress.
WHIT AYRES, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: When Pat Robertson endorses Rudy Giuliani and when the Manchester union leader endorses John McCain, it reinforces my sense that the Republican presidential nominations like the 2007 college football season. It just doesn't make a lot of sense and is not particularly predictable.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney of neighboring Massachusetts still runs well ahead of McCain here, but McCain's thinking goes like this. A Romney stumble in Iowa will dramatically change the landscape in New Hampshire. That is a hope far from certain, but for John McCain, hope is something that for months has been in short supply. Christine?
ROMANS: All right, thanks, John; John King reporting there from New Hampshire.
Oprah Winfrey this weekend will hit the campaign trail to help Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama. Their goal is to win over Democrats who are likely to be supporters of Senator Hillary Clinton.
Candy Crowley reports from Des Moines, Iowa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are calling it the Oprah-Bama (ph).
KARLETTA WHITE, STUDENT: Oprah's a girl, she's a woman and Obama is a man.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CROWLEY: From Iowa to South Carolina to New Hampshire, presidential candidate Barack Obama will campaign this weekend with the woman of daytime TV. It's a programming trifecta (ph) that's selling out tickets in South Carolina and lighting up the gray winter of New Hampshire in Iowa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the secretaries was just so excited about the fact that Oprah was coming and she said who would have thought Oprah coming to little old Iowa.
CROWLEY: Oprah speaks daily to almost nine million viewers, turns books into best-sellers, makes experts into household names. Can she boost Barack? Oh, how this campaign hopes so.
CHERYL CARTER, OBAMA PRECINCT CAPTAIN: I think that having Oprah here on Saturday will definitely pull women out and I think it will just show that women in Iowa are Barack Obama supporters.
CROWLEY: Operative word, women, the crux of the '08 election. Did we mention that Oprah's audience is 75 percent female. Forty-four percent make less than $40,000. A quarter have no more than a high school education, more than half are women over 50. It is a profile of the female Clinton voter and this is a direct pitch for that demographic. Linda Peterson from North Liberty, Iowa, is leaning Obama. LINDA PETERSON, NORTH LIBERTY, IOWA: I think it's going to help him with the women my age because she's very popular, very respected among my age group.
CROWLEY: While Oprah's support is unlikely to translate directly into a significant number of Obama votes, we are talking loads of free media and if they come to see her, they'll hear him.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And if you stand up in this caucus for me, then I promise you that I will stand up for you.
CROWLEY: Like all Obama precinct captains in Iowa, Monique Washington got as many tickets as she wanted. She's dispensing them to supporters and wayfarers (ph).
MONIQUE WASHINGTON, OBAMA PRECINCT CAPTAIN: When I make phone calls a lot say a lot of people say they are undecided and I say would you like to come see Oprah and Obama and Michelle. And they go yeah, I want to come out.
CROWLEY: Obama workers also handed out tickets to anyone who volunteered four hours to the campaign or signed up for a caucus seminar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Those public tickets that were left were free to anyone if they would just walk into a campaign headquarters some place and give the Obama people their name and address. So this isn't just an event, Christine. This is an organizational tool.
ROMANS: You know there's a celebrity endorsement, Candy and then there's, you know, an Oprah Winfrey endorsement and those aren't necessarily the same things. She's kind of a celebrity in her own right. How worried are the other campaigns about this?
CROWLEY: Yeah, she's a super nova endorsement. There's no getting around that. Just because of her name and also her audience. Look, you know any time you are this close to the caucuses and you have someone who basically is going to steal the limelight for a couple of days here in Iowa and then South Carolina and then New Hampshire, that's worrisome, particularly in a race that's this tight.
We have seen that Bill Clinton's going to go into South Carolina over the weekend. Hillary Clinton will be here with her mother, so they're trying, but you know basically the best thing you can do when your opponent has this kind of mega star is to kind of sit back, let it happen and get back on track Monday.
ROMANS: All right, Candy Crowley in Des Moines. Thanks, Candy.
Still to come, the battle over a virtual fence along our southern border escalates. Jeanne Meserve will have our report -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The Department of Homeland Security issues an ultimatum to some Texas landowners to get a border fence built and we'll tell you about the virtual fence that some critics consider a high tech boondoggle (ph).
ROMANS: Thanks, Jeanne.
Also corporate elite and special interest launch a new attempt to impose illegal alien amnesty on the American people. We'll have that story.
And new evidence that communist China is refusing to obey international trade rules. You won't believe the Bush administration's response. We'll have a special report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Despite skyrocketing costs, delays and technological problems, the fence along our border with Mexico is on track, at least that's what the Department of Homeland Security says. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff opened a 28-mile stretch of border fence in Arizona today.
But as Jeanne Meserve reports the fence is not made out of stone or concrete, instead, it's a virtual one.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice-over): Telephoto cameras, motion detectors, thermal imaging devices, all perched on 98-foot tall towers, integrated to form a virtual fence along the border. The $20 million project along a stretch of the Arizona desert has been bedeviled by software problems, but now six months later than expected, the Department of Homeland Security is declaring it operational.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: It's not the be all and end all at this point and it's not what it can be eventually, but we needed to get possession of it and we need it to operate in order to really develop the next stage of this.
MESERVE: That next stage could cost an additional $64 million. Are taxpayers getting their money's worth? In a letter to Chertoff the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee questions whether the project really does much to improve border protection. Some critics think they already know the answer.
MICHAEL CUTLER, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: The virtual border will stop virtually nobody. If you want to keep people out of the United States you need to have fences. You need to have barriers and you need to have enough dedicated border patrol agents who can get the job done.
MESERVE: Building that physical fence is a priority for Chertoff, too. Friday he sent letters to about 160 uncooperative landowners saying if they don't give the government access to their property, the government will see them in court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can't surrender the keys to the kingdom to private landowners so we need to go to court in order to make sure we're moving forward on this important security project.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Chertoff is giving the landowners 30 days. The door is still open to talk, he says, but it is not open for endless talk -- Christine.
ROMANS: So Secretary Chertoff, Jeanne, says that the fence isn't the end all be all. It isn't all it could be, so then why did he agree to accept it as it is?
MESERVE: Well, he says it is functioning and they want to put it in the field and really give it a real world test. They want to put it in the command centers. They want to have it in the cars and have the actual border patrol agents working on it, not the contractors, and then he says they'll be able to see what additional modifications they might want to make, what add-ons they might want to make to the system.
ROMANS: And is the secretary of the department, are they talking about a timetable for the next section of virtual fence then?
MESERVE: No, they're not. They're not talking about that. He's sort of saying let's wait and see if we can get this part working and make sure it's exactly what we want and then we'll move forward.
ROMANS: Right, 28 miles. Jeanne Meserve, thank you so much, Jeanne.
MESERVE: You bet.
ROMANS: Police in Mexico are investigating a rash of killings of popular musicians. The latest victim is a trumpet player. Jose Aquino (ph) was found dead in southern Mexico with his hands and feet bound and a nylon bag over his head. His body was discovered the same day that two other murdered musicians received posthumous nominations for Grammy awards.
The killings of Sergio Gomez (ph) and Zada Penna (ph) have Mexico's musicians worried that they are targets of drug gangs. In November 2006, another musician was killed after his song became a drug lord's anthem.
A bipartisan House resolution is calling on President Bush to free two imprisoned border patrol agents by Christmas. Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean are serving 11 and 12-year sentences for shooting and wounding an illegal alien Mexican drug smuggler. That drug smuggler, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila (ph), was given immunity to testify against the border patrol agents. Davila is currently in a Texas prison pending a bond hearing on drug charges.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Should President Bush commute the sentences of Ramos and Compean so they can spend Christmas with their families? Yes or no, cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast. Time now for some of your thoughts; Jim in Indiana, "Lou, we lose a $15 per hour or a $20 per hour job, we replace it with a $10 per hour job, multiply it by several million jobs and our smart government wants to know why the consumer is not spending money and driving this country into a recession. We don't have money to spend."
Giuseppe (ph) in Arizona, "Lou, you're doing a very good job on many important issues, as far as the food safety is concerned we need to push for the country of origin labeling."
Darla in Arizona, "We have two Democrats and one Republican in our house who have all changed to be Independents. Thanks for telling America the truth about what our government is really doing."
We'll have more of your e-mail later on in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here on the program receives a copy of Lou's new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Coming up, business owners say they're hurting because of a patchwork of state and local and illegal immigration laws and millions of Americans are losing their jobs because China still fails to play by international trade rules.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT has learned that an upcoming government report on trade finds that six years after joining the World Trade Organization communist China is still failing to obey the rules.
As Kitty Pilgrim reports, this document comes at a critical moment for U.S.-China relations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Next week, Treasury Secretary Paulson returns to Beijing for more trade talks, just as the U.S. issues its latest annual report on China's compliance since joining the World Trade Organization in 2001. Officials tell CNN that the U.S. trade representative's report is likely to be unfavorable.
China continues to subsidize its own industries and fails to crack down on piracy of software, pharmaceuticals and other products. The Treasury secretary says he understands why Americans are anxious.
HENRY PAULSON, TREASURY SECRETARY: Many Americans worry about losing jobs to low-cost manufacturing or assembly in China. Some worry about losing their economic pride in leadership.
PILGRIM: But he says, there is progress and the strategic economic dialogue started in 2006 is working. Some trade groups disagree.
WILLIAM HAWKINS, U.S. BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY COUN.: We've (INAUDIBLE) for quite a while. The numbers on this, particularly in regard to China have gotten worse year after year. Over the last five years the trade deficit with China has tripled.
PILGRIM: And that will continue. Economists expect the trade deficit to save about $20 billion a month. Americans still buy China's low-cost goods despite a string of warnings and recalls here over faulty or tainted Chinese-made tires, toothpaste and other food products.
Congressional leaders have threatened that without tangible results new bills forcing tariffs are in the works. Today Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley sent a letter to Paulson urging measurable results.
Quote, "China promised to open its markets to U.S. beef consistent with international scientific standards, he said. It also committed to liberalize the payments regime for credit card providers and lift the moratorium on new foreign securities firms and China promised to protect and enforce intellectual property rights".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well even if the votes exist in Congress to pass legislation on China, to pressure the Chinese to regulate their currency, that legislation could face a veto, meaning such a law probably could not go into effect until after the 2008 elections -- Christine.
ROMANS: Kitty, all this dialogue and all this talking, I mean you can go back to Treasury secretaries for several administrations and the Chinese have been pretty consistent in that they say they will go at their own timetable.
PILGRIM: That's right. They set their own pace. This is the fifth trip for Secretary Paulson since he took his post and the strategic economic dialogue is what it describes a dialogue. Dialogue is one step lower than a negotiation, so...
ROMANS: (INAUDIBLE) recently and its annual report said all this dialogue is simply a lot of talking so far. They'd like to see more concrete results. All right, Kitty Pilgrim. Thanks so much, Kitty.
Coming up, time is running out on the congressional calendar. We'll have a report on how the government could be headed for shutdown.
Also less than four weeks to the Iowa caucuses and it's coming down to a handful of major issues. Are the candidates and voters on the same page? Some of the best political analysts weigh in with us.
And the U.S. Chamber of Commerce urging local governments not to introduce laws against illegal immigration, sounds like code perhaps for an amnesty agenda? We'll take a look.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: States and cities across the nation are passing laws to curb a rising tide of illegal immigration because the federal government is failing to take action, but business owners say the patchwork of legislation is hurting them and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce agrees.
As Louise Schiavone reports the business group held a conference today to push its agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arizona is poised to implement one of the toughest crackdowns on illegal workers in the nation; forcing employers to make sure workers are legal or lose their licenses. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is hopping mad.
TOM DONOHUE, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: That's great. That's really American, right?
SCHIAVONE: But in the absence of federal immigration reform, states and localities are taking matters into their own hands, as of mid-November introducing no fewer than 1,500 pieces of related legislation across the nation; 244 became law in 46 states; 11 of which have been vetoed.
Among the front line industries feeling the shock, construction, the Labor Department reports that just last month construction lost 24,000 jobs due in no small part to the current mortgage crisis with residential construction continuing a job's decline of many months. The nation's homebuilders employ between eight and nine million workers, but they say the pressures of changing laws presenting a patchwork of conflicting state and local regulations is killing them.
JERRY HOWARD, NATL. ASSN. OF HOME BUILDERS: To put a burden on them to comply with umpteen different laws in a small business, run out of your home is very, very difficult. It literally can't be done.
SCHIAVONE: Lawmakers in Arizona are sympathetic to the business burdens, but as one state senator described it, the citizens there have had quite enough.
ROBERT BURNS (R), ARIZONA STATE SENATE: The desert areas along the border look like a dump. I mean it's just unbelievable the amount of trash. We've had a number of environmental groups come and volunteer to try to clean this up and they can hardly make a dent. It's just unbelievable. There are thousands of people coming across.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Christine, the provisions and severity of immigration laws vary from state to state and many are facing court challenges, making employers already worried about the economy now think twice about the people they hire -- Christine.
ROMANS: What we hear, Louise, over and over again from these states and you know local officials, is that they are forced to try to do something because the federal government has failed. So if you accept that, then what do these businesses expect the states and local governments to do? SCHIAVONE: Well there is a tremendous amount of pressure, as you say, on these state and local governments to try to make this better, to make their environment more orderly. The businesses in the meantime have come, as you know, to depend upon this very low-cost source of workforce. So what they would like is really ultimately for the federal government to take the lead to establish one law. Nobody ever said the word amnesty today, Christine, but what they would like is to be able to tap into these workforces from other countries without having to pay a price for it.
ROMANS: All right. Louise Schiavone in Washington. Thank you, Louise.
Mixed news for the nation's economy today. The unemployment rate held steady at 4.7 percent last month and employers added some 94,000 jobs to their payrolls. Still, that's well down from October's gain of 174,000 jobs and far short of the new jobs that economists say are needed each month to simply keep the economy healthy.
Up next, the federal government could shut down next week if Congress doesn't act soon. We'll have a special report.
Oprah Winfrey hits the campaign trail. Can she really bring out voters for Barack Obama? We'll also tell you what some of the other candidates are doing and saying about that.
And republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee says he has a plan for the border. We'll tell you what that plan is. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Lawmakers in Washington seem determined to live up to their reputation as a do-nothing Congress. They have less than a week to pass some kind of spending bill or the government will run out of money over the holiday break. Now many congressional critics are afraid of what Congress might do. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Next week the temporary funding that Congress is currently using to run the government runs out and without action, the government comes to a stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you solemnly swear ...
TUCKER: Yet the elected representatives, the members of Congress who nearly a full year ago promised action, have passed only two out of 12 spending bills needed to fund the government and one of those was vetoed. Watchdog groups call Congress a failure.
STEVE ELLIS, TAXPAYERS FOR COMMON SENSE: They certainly haven't done their constitutionally-appointed duty. The constitution says Congress has the purse strings. Congress has to spend the money and this is their one most important job and they're failing at it, utterly. TUCKER: Come next week, Congress will face three options, pass an Omnibus spending bill, pass another temporary funding bill known as a continuing resolution, or shut down the government. Congressional critics say it's most likely that Congress will cram together a last minute Omnibus bill, one that they will pass on their way out the door in a rush to get home.
TOM SCHATZ, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVT. WASTE: Can you imagine anyone running a business like this, a board of directors approving a budget that they don't have time to review that's thousands of pages long especially when you're spending $940 billion at one time.
TUCKER: Most observers don't believe there will be a shutdown. The last time Congress shut down the government was 1995 and people were angry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Angry people are angry voters. The Government Accountability Office, did try to help, offering the suggestion that Congress forego all the earmarks in all their bills. Congressman David Obi at the house gave his okay and said but generally the idea went over like a lead balloon and the rest of Congress earmarks after all, are the political currency of reelection Christine and nobody wants to eat those up.
ROMANS: So I guess a critic could say the do-nothing Congress has trouble doing everything including spending our money.
TUCKER: Isn't that remarkable? I mean, it's really true and it's a fair observation. Look. They're not going run out of money. They will pass a continuing resolution. The real shame of this is that they will end up passing a bill, Christine, much like the comprehensive immigration reform bill that will be thousands of pages thick, that no one will read and then they will pass and then in January and February, you and I will be doing stories and say can you believe? Did you know this was in there and they'll be going no. They won't be lying.
ROMANS: Fine-toothed comb in the middle of the night. Bill Tucker, thank you very much, Bill.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Should President Bush commute the sentences of Ramos and Compean so they can spend Christmas with their families? Yes or no. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We will bring you the results in just a few minutes.
Up next, the top issues on the presidential campaign trail. Democrats and republicans intensify their campaigning this weekend. We'll tell you what the candidates will be talking about and rising GOP candidate Mike Huckabee says he has a plan for the border and later, heroes, our tribute to the brave men and women who serve this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ROMANS: Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee today announced what he calls a strong plan to end the mess of illegal immigration; simply, sealing the border with Mexico. That, says Huckabee, would mean hiring more border patrol agents. Huckabee says he'd make illegal aliens return home as a condition for re-applying to re-enter the United States, otherwise he says they'd have to wait ten years to apply.
Joining me now are three of the best political analysts in the country. From San Francisco, republican strategist Ed Rollins. Ed was a White House political director under President Reagan. Joining me here in New York, "New York Daily News" columnist, Michael Goodwin and syndicated columnist, Miguel Perez.
I want to get to the Huckabee story in just a moment but I also want to talk about these startling poll numbers that are shaking up that campaign but I want to begin with out top story, the CIA videotapes. The timing of this, videotapes taken in interrogations of 2002. Videotapes then subsequently destroyed and now the controversy. What's happening here?
MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Well, as I understand it, it's simply "The New York Times" got wind of the destruction of videotapes and printed an article, told the administration it was going to, confirmed it, it certainly seems to have gotten the story dead-on and as a result the CIA had to tell its employees. The notion -- what I find really extraordinary is the notion that President Bush didn't know about this until yesterday. That, to me, is extraordinary. I mean, last week we found out he really didn't seem to know much about the new NIE on Iran until recently. It's gotten scary.
ROMANS: Miguel, I mean do you think this is a hit against the Bush administration?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: It's getting not only scary, it's terribly embarrassing. As an American, I feel embarrassed that we have who going on in the White House. It, you know, for the president to now all of a sudden pretend that everything is okay when in fact he had all of this information on his lap and just a few weeks ago he told us that if you want to avoid a nuclear war, you've got to be concerned about Iran. You know, he had the information so that he could have told us that the nuclear war was not around the corner at that time.
ROMANS: What about the magnitude of the controversy over the CIA videotapes in particular? I mean do you think this is something that is going to endure here?
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Sure, it is, because I think the CIA is running amok, and I think first of all, everybody questions their intelligence reports. You're not sure whether they're accurate or inaccurate. We went to war and then we found out they weren't accurate. Hopefully they're accurate on this particular time, but we're not sure. But more important, when you find out that Porter Goss was the CIA director, didn't want this to happen, wasn't notified until after the fact, the CIA has to basically report to the ranking members of Congress on any activity they do, the intelligence committee, and they clearly didn't do that and these guys think they're above the law and that's outrageous.
ROMANS: Ed, I want to talk about Huckabee and I want to give you some props here because you have been telling me and this broadcast for months that you were predicting some sort of a Huckabee surge and there's this Newsweek poll that is showing an incredible gain for Mike Huckabee. It's a poll of republican -- potential republican caucus goers. It shows 39%, Romney 17%. Thompson 10, Giuliani 9, McCain 6. You compare that with the recent Des Moines Register Iowa poll among likely republican caucus goers and that shows 29-24. It's a little bit tighter in the Des Moines Register Iowa. What's happening here?
ROLLINS: He has momentum. He's connecting with voters. He's getting a lot of free media time. He has very little money to be on television unlike Romney and others and people believe him. People like him and I think to a certain extent he's doing well in South Carolina. He's now starting to take some leads in the national polls and he's a very credible candidate.
ROMANS: Miguel, he comes out strong with a very strong seal the border immigration policy today. Does that help him with potential caucus goers?
PEREZ: It helps him depending what else he says about the border and immigration. It's not just about sealing the border.
ROMANS: Right.
PEREZ: Mr. Huckabee has demonstrated that he has compassion for illegal immigrants as opposed to some of the other republican candidates. So if he can propose.
ROMANS: Compassion how? The dream act, right?
PEREZ: No, compassion for the immigrants who are already here in terms of eventually giving them some kind of legalization plan for them to stay here. You know, if he seals the border, I mean, I can live and a lot of Latinos in this country can live with, we'll shut the border. We'll really control the borders from now on, but give a legalization plan to the immigrants that are here. I think Mr. Huckabee would go along with that.
GOODWIN: No question Mike Huckabee is having a terrific surge. Across the country now I think you're starting to see him pick up in the south where he should do well, Florida and probably South Carolina. I wonder, however, and this is always true of anybody who is on a roll, is it something to trip it up? When you look at some of the stories about Huckabee with the rapist murderer he set up for parole, and this NIE thing, the intelligence estimate on Iran, 24 hours later on this network, he didn't know about it. So -- and the foreign policy issue is a serious dent in him because he doesn't have an experience. He doesn't talk about it much. I think in the last debate he didn't get asked any questions. So he's clearly on a surge. The question of whether he's the flavor of the month, among primary voters haven't really settled on anybody else, I think more among republicans and democrats. Democrats have narrowed it down to two, really. Republicans are still searching among really five different candidates who have some kind of support in some states. So he's doing well. We'll have to see whether it can hold on for another month or so.
ROMANS: And Ed, we haven't talked at all about religion here. You know, Romney with his big speech this week, about Mormonism saying Mormon once, but talking about common values and the like. Is religion something that you think is pushing this surge behind Huckabee?
ROLLINS: Well, I think, first of all, the speech yesterday was a very credible effort and I thought Romney should be applauded for doing it. I think it's sad, if religion is a part of all of this. I think each individual has a right to choose what it is they want to believe in and I think we have some very fine people on both sides who have their own personal beliefs.
I think Huckabee, obviously, has connected, captured a certain segment of the electorate who are looking for a candidate. I think he's honest. I think he basically has a great ability to communicate. As Michael said, it's now a game. He's certainly one of the two or three front runners and then you get counter punched and people coming after you and you have to defend yourself, but I think he's at least being looked and the looked at hard today. And I think that's a good place.
ROMANS: He was up against a lot of high expectations for Romney's speech yesterday, everyone comparing it to the JFK speech 40 years ago and 90 miles away. I mean how did it shape up for you?
PEREZ: Well you know, religion has never been a factor for me. I don't think we should select the president based on his religion, but definitely the other issues and the things that I have a problem with, Mr. Romney. There are other issues and the flip-flopping thing.
ROMANS: Like what?
PEREZ: You know his flip-flopping his position on immigration and let's not forget that just this week, his yard became news again because in fact like Giuliani said, he does have a sanctuary mansion.
ROMANS: It's incredible that this is the state of the illegal immigration situation in this country that a former governor's yard can be some kind of a touchstone in the illegal immigration debate.
GOODWIN: I think Romney really made lemonade out of lemons. I agree with Ed. It's too bad that he had to give the speech, but he had to give the speech in part because Huckabee is exploiting the prejudice against Mormons in Iowa in particular. And so Huckabee, former minister, pastor can sort of talk that talk so well that people were peeling away from Romney.
On the other hand, as Miguel says, not everybody who dislikes Romney does so because he's a Mormon. I mean there are lots of reasons not to like Mitt Romney so far. I think he did help himself. Whether that has staying power, again, depends on his larger positions and not the religion.
ROMANS: Let me ask you about two names, both start with O, both have five letters and they're going to be together in South Carolina and there will be a lot of news about Oprah and Obama. How important is this, Miguel and what does it mean for other campaigns? They must be running scared to a certain degree because as we reported with Candy Crowley, I mean there are celebrities and celebrity endorsements, which some people say they don't mean anything, and then there's Oprah.
PEREZ: That's normally my feeling. I'm not crazy about celebrity endorsements. I don't really think they mean anything. But Oprah is totally different. She has a tremendous following among African-Americans and especially among women and she can help Obama on both of those fronts.
ROMANS: And now Ed, we're hearing that Bill Clinton is going to head down the day before in South Carolina. I mean I imagine the campaigns are going to pull out the big guns that they have as well, right, Ed?
ROLLINS: Well, the critical thing here is they attract attention. They have moved the venue from an 18,000 seat stadium to an 80,000 seat stadium for Oprah. So I mean she doesn't make the sale. Obama has to make the sale, but she certainly brings the audience and I think she has great credibility especially among women who watch her every day and I think to a certain extent, that's one of the strengths of Hillary so at least he'll get an opportunity to talk to these women and try to make his own case. That's critical.
ROMANS: Does she translate, Michael, into votes, though? I mean all those ears will be listening to the senator, but Senator Obama but will she translate into votes for him?
GOODWIN: We don't know. We've never seen this in any -- it's never been tried on this level. There's never been an Oprah who's gotten into politics this way. One of the interesting facts of the week was that Hillary Clinton countered the Obama/Oprah union by announcing endorsement of Barbara Streisand. Really. That's one that won't move the needle. Oprah might.
ROMANS: Ed, does she translate into votes?
ROLLINS: Certainly Barbara Streisand, I was a great fan of Barbara Streisand and now shah she became a political activist I don't even listen to her. That's my bias. Great talent, but lousy chooser of candidate.
ROMANS: That's the problem with celebrity endorsements. You love your celebrity. You love their CD and suddenly they go and they endorse somebody.
GOODWIN: They ruin it.
PEREZ: But look, a lot of African-Americans are undecided on whether to go with Hillary or go with Obama. I think Oprah can help Obama in that direction convincing African-Americans that they can have win, that they can have a black president. I think she's trying to do that.
ROMANS: I want to talk about Hugo Chavez because this is something you and I have talked about a lot. Hugo Chavez, over the past year and a half or so, trying to use democracy there in his country in Venezuela to push a socialist revolution and then on the ballot he really -- democracy sort of bit him.
PEREZ: Well you know Christine, Venezuelans came very, very close from giving us the world's first democratically-elected dictatorship.
ROMANS: Isn't that remarkable?
PEREZ: You know it's like the people saying take away our freedoms, you know, here's this maniac who wants to be our president, who fights with the whole world and we keep voting and referendum, after referendum, election after election, we keep voting for him. They finally put the brakes on. Why? Because they realized this guy is a madman. He's going around the whole world. He's - you know the king of Spain, the president of Peru, he's about to start a war with Colombia. He came to the United States and called President Bush the devil. I mean the guy is just -- he's creating all kinds of alliances with Iran and the axis of evil. He's creating a front, an anti- American front in Latin America. He wants to be the dictator of all of Latin America. He wants to unite Latin America and be the head of it all.
ROMANS: You know Michael, was this a victory for U.S. foreign policy or despite U.S. foreign policy, this happened?
GOODWIN: Well, I think probably what's going on in addition to all that Miguel said, I think he has problems domestically as well. I mean the economy is not doing well despite the oil prices which is their main product, it's not being shared. A lot of people are not prospering and then when you have the crackdowns on rights, dissidents locked up, that sort of thing, suddenly you say wait a minute. What are we doing with this guy? In terms of American foreign policy, we made a mistake in trying to support the coup to get rid of him, but we've got some several victories around the world; Sarkozy in France, for example. Gordon Brown has turned out to be a stalwart ally in Great Britain already. There were worries about that, but I think we're doing pretty well in that front.
ROMANS: And Ed, I'm going to let you have the final word. You can talk about Chavez, foreign policy or you can take another victory lap about the Huckabee surge.
ROLLINS: No, here's what I want to say. The amazing thing to me and I'm going over two big hurdles. We have an African-American and a woman who are leading the Democratic Party. The mere fact that we're still debating whether someone as a Mormon has a chance to win I think is the last hurdle that we need to get over here. Americans ought to basically pick on the personalities, on the strength and the character and the records of people and I think that's what we'll get to by the end of this campaign.
ROMANS: All right. Well said, my friend. Ed Rollins in San Francisco, thank you for joining us, former White House political director during the Reagan administration, also Michael Goodwin, New York Daily News, thank you and Miguel Perez, syndicated columnist. A pleasure as always, gentlemen.
Still ahead, heroes, our tribute to the men and women who serve this country in uniform.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: And now heroes, our tribute to the brave men and women who serve this country in uniform. Tonight, we introduce you to Army National Guard Lieutenant George Collins. Lieutenant Collins was awarded the bronze star with valor for his work destroying roadside bombs in Iraq. Philipa Holland has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPA HOLLAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Homecoming, Platoon Leader Lieutenant George Collins has two families. Today, he's saying good- bye to his army family and joining the family he's been dreaming about for the last year.
LT. GEORGE COLLINS, ARKANSAS ARMY NATIONAL GUARD: You wait so long to see somebody that you know, dreamed about and you wanted to see and it's just the happiness and peacefulness that you forget about once you're over there.
HOLLAND: November 27, 2006, was the night Collins and his alpha company won't ever forget.
COLLINS: We were in a mission looking for IEDs. There was a convoy behind us and they were taking extremely large amounts of fire, so I turned our patrol around and we went back and looked at it and we jumped lanes and pretty much blocked off the traffic that was coming towards us. They were in a heavy ambush, so we blocked the enemy fire against the coalition forces and got them to change lanes and get out of the area.
HOLLAND: Collins was awarded the bronze star with valor. He says he was just doing his job.
COLLINS: That's the number one killer of coalition forces. That to me, takes bravery. That doesn't make us heroes. Eric Smallwood was a hero, not us. That was just our jobs.
HOLLAND: Sergeant Eric S. Smallwood was recognized posthumously. Smallwood died when an IED detonated near his vehicle during a route clearance patrol.
Collins' father is a Vietnam vet and serving in the army goes back generations.
COLLINS: Just as far as we can go back, somebody in my family has been in the army and you know, there are times when I get discouraged, you know, with conflicts of interest and that sort of thing, but when I put on the uniform it just makes me proud to know that I'm part of this tradition.
HOLLAND: But for now, Collins is putting away his uniform. He's just glad to be home.
COLLINS: Looking forward to not having to wear armor every day. I'm looking forward to not having to worry about if something will explode on the side of the road. I'm looking forward to waking up next to my wife every morning.
HOLLAND: And this family is more than happy to have him back.
Philipa Holland, CNN.
ROMANS: We welcome you back, sir.
Now the results of tonight's poll; 98% of you think President Bush should commute the sentences of Ramos and Compean so they can spend Christmas with their families. As we reported earlier, a bipartisan house resolution is calling on President Bush to do just that.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Jack in South Carolina, "Free trade, free trade! When are Bush and our government going get off this free trade kick and start considering fair trade? Fair trade is a win-win situation. Our so- called free trade is a win for our trading partners and a loss for U.S. citizens."
Mark in Arkansas, "Lou, keep up the good work and please remind the American people that contrary to what our government wants you to think, the constitution is and always has been a document limiting government power, not limiting our freedom."
Mark in Texas, "I suspect that if those two border patrol agents had last names of Scooter or Libby they would have been out long ago."
June in Colorado, "Border patrol agents Ramos and Compean should not even have to go through another trial. They should be pardoned, exonerated, given their jobs back, even if they want them -- if they even want them and receive generous compensation for wrongful imprisonment."
Erma in North Carolina, "Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thanks to you, my husband and I have been able to make an informed decision and we registered as independents after 30 years as democrats. Please keep up the good work. We love you." Wow. We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. Each of you whose email is read here receives a copy of Lou's new book, "Independents Day, Awakening the American Spirit."
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. From all of us here, thanks for watching this program. Good night from New York.
Now a special encore presentation of CNN's "Heroes."
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