Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Obama Gets a Boost from Oprah; Major Development in Growing CIA Controversy; Mid-Air Collision; Update on "Atlantis" Glitches; Stresses of War and the Impact at Home
Aired December 08, 2007 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right. One of the leading presidential contenders.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: How about that.
WHITFIELD: Democratic Senator Barack Obama getting quite a boost perhaps from TV star, Oprah Winfrey.
HARRIS: This has been topping the scene. There's no doubt about it. When Oprah Winfrey walks into a room, my goodness. The wall is going to shake a little bit, huh.
WHITFIELD: That's right. Well, you got the momentum now to take in to the NEWSROOM, Tony.
HARRIS: Really. Let me get a (INAUDIBLE) up here. All right.
WHITFIELD: OK, have a good evening.
HARRIS: All right, thanks, Fred. And I'm Tony Harris. Welcome, everyone, to the CNN NEWSROOM. Barack Obama, a rally in Iowa with star power front and center. Oprah Winfrey is there and you will be too. We'll take you back just minutes away.
But first a major development in a growing controversy at the CIA. And good evening, everyone. The Justice Department and CIA have now announced they will review the spy agency destroying some videotapes. The agencies will decide if the situation merits further investigation. CNN's Gary Nuremberg is in Washington tackling the developing elements to the story. Gary, good to see you. What is the very latest?
GARY NUREMBERG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good afternoon, Tony. The announcement came this afternoon and CIA director Michael Hayden issued a statement saying that he welcomes that investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NUREMBERG: The Justice Department sent a letter to the CIA Saturday. It says justice will conduct a joint inquiry with the CIA's Office of Inspector General and ask the CIA to turn over its own preliminary investigation. A former intelligence official tells CNN the CIA's top lawyer, John Rizzo and then CIA director Porter Goss both oppose the destruction of videotapes showing the interrogation of terrorist suspects and did not learn of that destruction until after the fact. The White House said Friday President Bush was unaware.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has no recollection of being made aware of the tapes or their destruction before yesterday.
NUREMBERG: Two senior administration officials tell CNN that then White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Harriet Miers told the CIA in 2003 or 2004 not to destroy the tapes which were made after the president approved severe interrogation techniques. In a letter to CIA employees, Director Michael Hayden says leaders of Congressional Oversight Committees at the time were told the tapes had been destroyed, but some of those leaders say the CIA didn't tell them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have been ignored, repeatedly, in our effort to get full information.
NUREMBERG: A Congressional hearing could begin within days.
SEN. CHRIS DODO, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're not getting the full story, hence the reason why there should be an investigation.
NUREMBERG: Republican presidential candidate John McCain said Saturday, destruction of the tapes could be damaging.
JOHN MCCAIN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What does that do? That confirms suspicions of people, or our enemies that we engage in interrogation techniques which are illegal.
RONALD KESSLER, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE CIA": It creates a specter of a CIA out of control, sort of a rogue agency.
NUREMBERG: Ronald Kessler is author of "Inside the CIA" and "The Terrorist Watch," inside the desperate race to stop the next attack."
KESSLER: There's no question that these tapes should not have been destroyed. People within the CIA themselves are dismayed but at the same time, these techniques are something that worked and that were approved by Congress. And that were need to protect us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NUREMBERG: The announcement by the CIA and Department of Justice of the joint inquiry is just the first step in determining whether a full Justice Department investigation will take place. The first step, Tony, in determining whether any laws were broken when those tapes were destroyed.
HARRIS: OK, Gary, here is the question. I'm wondering did the CIA director, Michael Hayden, any indication that he ordered the tapes destroyed himself?
NUREMBERG: No, not at all. Remember that he wasn't the CIA director at that time. That was Porter Goss. Interesting, that Mr. Goss is a former intelligence committee chairman on the hill. At that time, there were reports that Goss told the CIA, he didn't want the tapes destroyed. The question is why were they destroyed under his watch. Why is he informed, only after the destruction? HARRIS: You're absolutely right. Hayden was not the CIA director at the time. All right, great to see you. Thanks for reporting on this.
Let's go back to Des Moines, Iowa right now and take a look at Barack Obama on stage. Des Moines, Iowa, just over his right, left shoulder there, Oprah Winfrey bringing all the star power you can imagine. Oprah Winfrey into the hall, just a few moments ago and it felt like figuratively the walls shook, just a huge ovation for Oprah Winfrey, but now it is time for the stunt speech, and that's what we have now from Barack Obama. We will check in with our Candy Crowley in just a couple of minutes right here in the NEWSROOM.
Hillary Clinton's star card this weekend. Her own husband, Former President Bill Clinton, pushed Mrs. Clinton's health care plan at an event in Charleston, South Carolina. Health care is a big issue in the Palmetto State. Nearly 700,000 people there don't have insurance. The former president says his wife's plan will provide care for all. He also talked about economic challenges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE USA: Issue, we keep being told we're in the seventh year of a recovery and we got the highest mortgage foreclosure rate in 30 years. Median incomes, the ones in the middle, that's not average, that includes rich people like me, I love saying that. I never had any money when I was in the White House. But average is misleading term. Somebody says average to you, that's like having your one hand in pot boiling water and one hand in a pot of cold and you ought to feel this good, because it's average. You need to know what the median income, how do people in the middle do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: And a more family support for Hillary Clinton. Daughter Chelsea and her 88-year-old mother, Dorothy Rodham both made campaign appearances this weekend in Iowa. Clinton and the rest of the candidates are all appealing to women voters who could hold the key to the Iowa caucuses. They kick off the nominating season less than four weeks.
And Republican Mitt Romney hit the air waves this week to talk about his Mormon faith. In less than 30 minutes, we will take an in-depth look at the roots of Mormonism and a place you might not expect. That is coming up at 5:30 eastern time. President Bush has declared flooding in Washington State a major disaster. Clearing the way for some federal aid. The money will be used to help recovery efforts in five counties, but a federal emergency official say more counties could be covered after damage surveys are completed.
The violent storms this week, triggered the flooding, early estimates put the damage near the billion-dollar mark. Washington Governor Chris Gregoire has schedule the news conference for 5:30 eastern time to talk about the federal response. OK, Jacqui. Jacqui Jeras in the severe weather center. Just how bad is it for our friends there in Washington. Jacqui, good to see. (WEATHER REPORT)
HARRIS: Just want to give you a quick update on the breaking news we start reporting. Just a short time ago, a mid-air collision, first pictures in to CNN now just a short time ago that occurred all about 2:40 p.m. Eastern Time is the information that we're getting. About six miles northwest of Pompano Beach, Florida. And this involved a piper PA 30 aircraft, if you're familiar with that aircraft and it was involved with a still unconfirmed second aircraft over the everglades as you can see from the pictures here, and the first pictures indicating some of the wreckage on the scene there.
This occurring in Palm Beach County, Florida. No indication yet of how many people might be involved. Their conditions at this time. We will continue to gather more information on this and we'll get you an update as soon as we have that information, right here in the "NEWSROOM."
But still to come, a fight over Christmas lights dims the holiday spirit. Yuletide gunfire? Next in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: OK, Britain's canoe man paddling in more hot water today. Police have now slapped John Darwin with charges of fraud and lying to get a passport. He is due in court Monday. Darwin was declared legally dead in 2003. A year after his empty kayak washed up onshore. Investigators say Darwin faked his death to get out of debt. He claimed he's been suffering from amnesia the past five years.
Chicago police arrested the ex-boyfriend of a woman found dead in September, Nailah Franklin was reported missing after she didn't show up for a work meeting. Today, officer said Reginald Potts' cell phone record shattered his alibi. Frank had accused Potts of making threatening phone calls and was seeking an order of protection against him before she disappeared.
During the holiday season, the sentiment's usually peace on earth and good will. Well, you know the rest of it, that sort of thing. But in one Florida neighborhood, not so much. Police say an argument involving Christmas decorations got way out of hand leading one man to shoot his neighbor. The suspect, Matt Lankford allegedly ran over Doug Sheldon's light up snowman, giant snow globe and blow-up Santa. After Sheldon confronted Langford, the gun came out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BO SHELDON, BROTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: It just tears me up inside. I've just been praying about it. All the way down the street, it's awful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Doug Sheldon is hospitalized in stable condition. Prosecutors had charged Matt Lankford with attempted murder. An update from NASA on its shuttle "Atlantis" glitches. In a statement, just a little while ago, NASA said it now hopes to launch the space shuttle "Atlantis" tomorrow afternoon. Engineers are still trying to resolve the sensor problem on "Atlantis'" main fuel tank. Too faulty sensors force NASA to scrub Thursday's launch. Those sensors help track the shuttle's fuel supply so the main engines can shut off in case of a problem. If a launch is a go, CNN will bring it to you live at 3:21 p.m. tomorrow.
I'm sorry. I'm getting information right now at the moment that NASA has confirmed that the shuttle launch is a go for tomorrow, 3:21 Eastern. You'll see it right here in the "NEWSROOM."
Still to come, it's an aspect of war we rarely think about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have M-16 strapped to your back all day and thinking that, you know, I'll have to use this thing at one point while I'm here. You just, it plays tricks on your mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Up next in the "NEWSROOM," the stresses of war and the impact at home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: The war on terror is in its sixth year. The invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan have stretched the U.S. military thin. But it's not just the troops who are feeling the stress. Vince Gonzalez examines a disturbing aspect of the longer more frequent deployments, the toll on military families, especially the children.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VINCE GONZALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This marine, an Iraq veteran, pleaded guilty in June, after his 7-month-old died from bleeding in the brain. Even though this Iraq vet pleaded not guilty last month, police say he admitted beating his 5-year-old with a military belt. Investigators say the girl had more than 100 bruises. And before he was sentenced to 15 years this week, this former soldier said stress from Iraq led him to abuse and starve his girlfriend's daughter.
According to government studies, child abuse and neglect rates in the military are normally half that of the general population. But records from the Pentagon's Family Advocacy Program given to CNN showed child maltreatment rates for military families while still much lower than civilian incidence, rose in the years just after 9/11. One possible cause, stress from frequent war-time deployments. Recent studies including at least one funded by the Pentagon, found abuse or neglect increased 30 percent to 50 percent in families where a parent deployed.
Sometimes the abuser was the service member. Sometimes it was the spouse, male or female, left behind. Another possible factor, posttraumatic stress brought on by combat, breath in day-to-day life in the war zones.
JONATHAN KLINKER, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: Especially when you have M- 16s strapped to your back all day and thinking that, you know, I'm going to have to use this thing at one point while I'm here. You just, it plays tricks on your mind.
GONZALES: Before Jonathan Klinker went to Iraq, Amanda Radetsky, also a soldier, said he seemed...
AMANDA RADETSKY, EX-WIFE: Like the man of my dreams.
GONZALES: But here at Fort Carson, where the couple was stationed, Klinker began flying into rages, losing control, even put his pregnant wife in the hospital.
RADETSKY: The guy who went to Iraq before he went was loving and kind, and always showed affection and always wanting to be together, and just totally in love, and the guy that came back was an absolute jerk.
GONZALES: Klinker was sent to counseling, and after their daughter, Nicolette (ph) was born, things seemed to get better.
RADETSKY: And then, in the first week, I went back from maternity leave, that Friday the 13th, I was playing with her and getting her dressed and for the first time, I saw her first real smile, and when John came out and said just let me keep her home, I thought to myself, I can play with her for a few more minutes before I have to go to work, if I just let her stay today. So, I did and when I left my house, everything was fine. He was feeding her and playing with her, and things at my house were normal.
GONZALES: But when Radetsky returned home a few hours later...
RADETSKY: My baby looked horrible.
GONZALES: Eventually, they took her to the hospital.
RADETSKY: That's when they told me that Nicolette (ph) had bleeding in her brain.
GONZALES: As doctors examined the 7-week-old, Radetsky noticed something terrifying about her husband.
RADETSKY: He had the same look on his face that he had when he had put me in the hospital, right before I had the baby.
GONZALES: She confronted Klinker, demanding he tell the truth.
RADETSKY: AND at that time, Jonathan, gave me and the baby a kiss, said he loved us and went and talked to the detectives.
GONZALES: Klinker told them he shook and dropped Nicolette. He now says he fell asleep and may have rolled on top of her. Other injuries, he says, might have been caused by his attempts to revive her but admits being frustrated by his inability to calm Nicolette.
KLINKER: It was like a surge of like anger over me. I didn't really know how to control it or slow it down. It's just like a train with no brakes it felt like.
GONZALES: Klinker was taken away from the hospital by police, leaving Nicolette to fight for her life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: And still ahead, more of Vince's special report. When we come back, a young mother's anguish.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RADETSKY: And I held my little girl as she gasped for air for two hours. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: More now on the fallout of the war on terror on America's military families. The military is taking a proactive approach, trying to reeducate troops about stresses they'll face as they transition back into normal life and the warning signs of post traumatic stress disorder. More now from Vince Gonzalez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GONZALES: Jonathan Klinker says he doesn't remember much about the day his daughter, Nicolette, died.
KLINKER: I do know that it did not feel like it was me, like somebody else was controlling my hands, and it was a straight, somebody who was angry at a whole lot of people for no reason.
GONZALES: Klinker was in custody and wasn't at the hospital when doctors told Nicolette's mother, Amanda Radetsky, her baby would never recover.
RADETSKY: That evening, we gathered all of my family and friends, and we took her off life support, and I held my little girl as she gasped for air for two hours. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. My baby wasn't here. I couldn't take my baby home from the hospital that night. I had to leave her there.
GONZALES: Nicolette was 7 weeks old.
RADETSKY: Nicolette's baby blanket. It's the only piece of her that I have.
GONZALES: Klinker will spend up to 40 years in this Colorado State prison, after pleading guilty to causing Nicolette's death. Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Goodman of Italian Commander at Fort Carson says the army had begun trying to help Klinker immediately after he put his wife in the hospital, months before their baby's death.
LT. COL. MATTHEW GOODMAN, FORT CARSON, COLORADO: We still took all of the action that we legally could to deal with this situation. He was immediately enrolled in marital counseling. He was directed to enroll into parenting classes, and additionally he enrolled in anger management classes.
GONZALES: According to Pentagon numbers, child abuse and neglect rates in military families hit a high in 2004 and then began a steep decline. But the war still goes on and long deployments are a fact of life. So what happened? Officials credit a better safety net for military families and a tough no tolerance policy.
LT. COL. AARON ALDRIDGE, MARINE CORPS RECRUITMENT DEPOT: It's definitely not acceptable, its unacceptable behavior, so that's, you know, the bottom line.
GONZALES: U.S. Marine Corps has historically had one of the best child abuse prevention records in the military, with a steady decline in rates. Lieutenant Colonel Aaron Aldridge of the Marine Corps Depot in San Diego credits the recent dramatic drop in military-wide cases to a Pentagon investment in classes and programs aimed at spotting abuse and helping families with deployment stress. Aldridge says this commitment is important to military preparedness.
ALDRIDGE: Oh, absolutely, readiness issue. You know, if you're tied to, you know, problems at home, or family issues, then you're not going to prepared to go when you're called upon.
GONZALES: Sean Cowly (ph) who recently left the military, and his wife, Major Marissa Serrano are one of the corps fighting families. Both have been stationed in the war zones. Before their new baby arrived, they took marine family classes. One made quite an impact on him.
It was the shaken baby video. That scared the hell out of me. One act of rage or missing a moment of sanity in your mind could potentially affect her for the rest of her life.
GONZALES: It's a lesson Jonathan Klinker, who admits skipping some counseling opportunities, learned too late.
KLINKER: I loved my daughter. I hope I see her again, you know, if heaven is a true place, I really hope to see her again.
GONZALES: Amanda Radetsky divorced Klinker. The papers were served in prison. But she can't escape the haunting images of her baby daughter. What do you see when you look at that picture now?
RADETSKY: Pain. It just hurts. I just feel pain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GONZALES: Nicolette is buried in Southern Colorado. Amanda Radetsky tells us she hasn't been able to go back there since the funeral, that pain she mentioned, the pain she feels every day, she says that just prevents her from going to the cemetery.
Tony?
HARRIS: Wow, Vince, powerful stuff. You mentioned that the case of Nicolette and abused hit the, sort of, high water mark into 2004. Does anyone know, can explain, why that was the case?
GONZALES: You know, most in the military officials we talked to, said deployment stress seems to be the just. They're not sure but it was drug abuse, alcohol abuse, suicide, in one service, suicide went up 90 percent from 2003 and 2004. It was just a bad, year all the way around, a big red flag for military leaders for them to begin focusing on military families and how to help them.
HARRIS: We're not just talking about the stress on the service members through these deployments, are we?
GONZALES: That's right. A lot of times the studies show that the parent is left at home, a male or female, suddenly finding themselves with all of the responsibilities on their shoulders, new families, low pay in the military. It's a lot of pressure on one person when a loved one is also away in a dangerous situation. It can become a dangerous situation at home as well.
HARRIS: What a couple -- what a series of reports. Vince, thank you so much.
GONZALES: Thank you.
HARRIS: We take you back to Des Moines, Iowa. Just moments ago -- where's our sound? Can we hear anything under this? A lot of glint going on now and Barack Obama in the crowd right now. The big campaign event in Des Moines, Iowa, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, and, oh, yeah, by the way, Oprah Winfrey on hand to start the first three- state swing of appearances, Iowa, new Hampshire, south Carolina. Barack Obama in Des Moines, Iowa. Still to come in the "NEWSROOM."
And still to come, presidential candidate Mitt Romney turned a huge spotlight on the Mormon Church this week. How much do you know about LDS? Up next, we take to you the faith's birth place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Happening now in the news, the Justice Department and the CIA have now announced they will review the spy agency destroying some videotapes. The agencies will decide if the situation merits further investigation.
Family support for Hillary Clinton. Daughter, Chelsea, and 88- year-old mother, Dorothy Rodman, both made campaign appearances in Iowa. Clinton and the rest of the candidates are appealing to women voters who could hold the key to the Iowa caucuses. And today at least, there are two "O's" in Iowa.
Wait a minute. Are we leaving out Michelle, Barack or Oprah? Minutes ago we heard Oprah Winfrey kick off a three-state tour to rally Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.
Time to see what's hot at cnn.com for millions of kids who grew up in the 1980s. Your first computer in the 1980s was Commodore 64. 25 years later, the love affair strong as ever.
Josh Levs here with more on that.
JOSH LEVS, CNN BUSINESS ANALYST: You remember that, the 64?
HARRIS: No, I don't.
LEVS: You don't.
HARRIS: I totally missed out on one.
LEVS: I was dying for one when I was like 3 or 4.
HARRIS: I grew up a poor black child in Baltimore. Couldn't afford a Commodore 89, 4, 60.
LEVS: We didn't get one either, trust me, until years later until we got our Apple 2E.
I'm going to trace a couple of things and look at that. Let's start off with this. It's all about the "O" today in I-O-Wa. On cnn.com, it looks at other celebrity endorsements for major candidates. Halle Berry for Obama, Jim Denson (ph) for Edwards and Barbra Streisand for Clinton. On the Republican side, Robert Duvall for Giuliani and Chuck Norris for Huckabee. A lot more information there at cnn.com.
Another story you heard mentioned today, this is a big story about Canoe Man, John Darwin. This is the number one story all day. People are fascinated by this guy who disappeared, went and turned himself in to police -- guess what? I think I'm a missing person. Now he's charged with fraud. His own kids don't want to talk to him. That's on cnn.com. People clicking on it all day.
The fun stuff. People are writing in about the Commodore 64 and how much they loved it and what it meant to them, how it fit into their lives. And it's a reality check on how far we've come.
I'm going to read two quotes here that we've got from these people.
First of all, from Ian Schaeffer of Staten Island, New York, he wrote us this. "The computer changed my life. It was the most important birthday gift I've ever received. I now run a successful digital advertising agency."
See, that works. He says "I love you, C64. That was the beginning of the computer era.
As a reminder of how slow they were, here's the other quote I want to give you. This is great, from gadget girl. That's what she goes by, gadget girl, from Canada. "The C64 was the first computer that I owned. I recall that I could go and wash and dry two loads of laundry while it was spellchecking my 60-page undergraduate thesis."
Ah, good times.
HARRIS: The Commodore 64.
LEVS: We've come a long way.
HARRIS: We really have.
LEVS: I get more information in that mini card that goes in my cell phone than an entire C64.
Tune in tomorrow, 8 a.m.; we're going to have one. We've got one. We unearthed the Commodore 64. You'll be able to see it.
HARRIS: Can't wait. We'll take a quick break and back with more "CNN NEWSROOM" right after this.
LEVS: Thanks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: The shoppers are there, alongside glaring reminders of a deadly shooting attack just three days ago. Omaha's Westroads Mall reopened today with extra security. On Wednesday, a troubled teen walked into a department store and opened fire, killing eight people, then himself. The store where it all happened remains closed, with people leaving poems, flowers and pictures outside stores. One shopper saying it seemed like the community is pulling together to move on.
Moving on. Hmmm, that is a tall order. Something an Ohio family has firsthand experience with. Last February, their world was ripped inside out when a shooting at a Salt Lake City mall robbed them of one life, forever changing their own.
Kenny and Sue Antropas and Jenny Campbell lost a daughter and sister, Vanessa Antropas Quinn in that shooting. They join us from Cincinnati.
And from Stamford, Connecticut, the chief consultant for the Hospice Foundation of America, Ken Doka is with us as well.
Welcome to you all.
Ken, good to see you as well.
KEN DOKA, CHIEF CONSULTANT, HOSPICE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA: Thank you.
HARRIS: Sue, Ken, Jenny, great to have you here. Not even a year, as we talk to you. I'm just sort of curious. Sue, why don't you take this one? How are you guys doing?
SUE ANTROPAS, FAMILY OF VANESSA: We're taking it a day at a time. That's about all you can do. So you just get through one day, and hope that tomorrow will be better.
HARRIS: Ken, if you would, tell me about Vanessa.
KEN ANTROPAS, FAMILY OF VANESSA: Vanessa was an athlete, a born athlete. I coached her when she was younger. She became a fantastic soccer player, and her and Jen played for the Bear Cubs.
HARRIS: University of Cincinnati, yes.
K. ANTROPAS: Yes. And I was so proud to watch both my daughters play on the same college team, her and Jan, Vanessa and Jan. And I'll have those memories the rest of my life. She was outgoing, helped -- would help anybody. Vanessa was that type of person. She was a pleasure to be around.
HARRIS: Ken, let me stay with you. I'm interested in what happens mentally, emotionally, when you lose a loved one as suddenly as you lost Vanessa. Do you remember anything about those early days when you learned of Vanessa's death?
K. ANTROPAS: We got a phone call at 3:30 in the morning and my wife answered the phone, and when I seen her go to her knees, I knew I was in trouble.
HARRIS: Yeah.
K. ANTROPAS: But I just didn't know which daughter it was. And when I heard Utah, I knew it was Vanessa, because she was out there working, and it was bad. And I got on the phone with my son-in-law, and he told me, you know, it's over, she's murdered. And then we turned the TV on, and it was, you know, all over the TV, and the reporters start showing up, and it's just -- we went into shock, you know. At first, you don't really cry. You scream, and you don't know what to do with yourself. And I think you go through shock, because the crying really gets bad, maybe three to six months later.
HARRIS: Whoa, Kenny, let me stop you right there.
Dr. Doka, does this sound familiar? What are you are hearing here?
DOKA: I'm hearing grief. I'm hearing a person who is struggling with a loss that's both incomprehensible, and yet struggling with it, with the strength that he has and his family has. I think shock is a very, very realistic way of explaining that first reaction. And then often after that, we begin to experience the emotions, the thoughts, the feelings, the physical sensation, the spiritual questions, all very intensely.
HARRIS: Well, Sue, as a point of fact here, you tell us that you lost your faith in God for awhile, didn't you? S. ANTROPAS: Yes, I did. I questioned my faith. I blamed him. I've gotten that back now, because I think God is healing and is going to pull us through this. And I pray every week to get my family through another week, another day, another minute, another second. Anything that it takes.
HARRIS: Yeah.
And it sounds like, Doctor, these are similar feelings, perhaps emotions that the families are the victims, of the victims in home has might be going through as well.
DOKA: It's important to recognize that when anybody experiences grief, that grief is going to be very different for each individual. Our relationships are different. Our stories are different. But again, I think you do see some of the common bounds, that shock, that intensity, all those kinds of reactions emotional, physical, and the like.
HARRIS: OK, let's take a quick break. And you all have agreed to stay with us for one more segment. We appreciate that.
Still to come, like the Columbine killer, the Omaha shooter, wanted to be famous. When we come back, we will hear from a survivor of the Columbine attack in 1999.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLUMBINE ATTACK SURVIVOR: I don't know if that makes sense, but I like to put a focus. We like to put a focus on something that's good, something that's worth sharing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Is there misplaced media attention in events like this? More with our guests, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: A routine shopping trip to the mall, yet that day changed everything for a family we've been speaking with tonight. Kenny and Sue Antropas and Jenny Campbell, lost a daughter and a sister, Vanessa Antropas Quinn in Utah last February. And they're joining us tonight from Cincinnati.
And from Stanford, Connecticut, the chief consultant for the Hospice Foundation of America, Ken Doka, is with us as well.
Sue, I've been a little bothered by the attempts this week to understand the mind of this Hawkins kid, and the Omaha shooting. I'm wondering at the time you lost your daughter, was there, in your mind, undue attention paid to the motives of the young man involved in that shooting? And how painful might it have been to watch that?
S. ANTROPAS: To be honest with you, I didn't watch TV. I was scared to death to even turn on the TV. HARRIS: You were scared to death to turn on the television, why is that?
S. ANTROPAS: Because of what I would see. I heard there was -- I heard there was a picture of my daughter in the mall laying on the floor.
HARRIS: Oh, boy.
S. ANTROPAS: And I didn't want to see that. So you know, I didn't turn on the TV. I didn't look at a TV. I didn't pick up a newspaper, and to this day, I have never, you know. We've got the newspapers when we came out there for the funeral, from the people that were with us, picked some up, but I've never looked at them. You know, I don't know if I ever will.
HARRIS: Ken?
K. ANTROPAS: Yes.
HARRIS: Let me ask you your thoughts on that same question.
K. ANTROPAS: I think, in Vanessa's case, the gunman was shot. He tried to shoot the police officers.
HARRIS: Yeah.
K. ANTROPAS: And they took him out. And I thank them for doing that; saved me a lot of problems of flying back and forth to Utah for trials and all that.
HARRIS: Um-hum.
K. ANTROPAS: In the case with the Nebraska, I think he did. I think they did give a little bit too much air time to this murder.
HARRIS: Yeah.
K. ANTROPAS: He's not a hero. He's a coward, and he should just get a quick, here's the person that did it, and back off that subject.
HARRIS: Yeah.
Dr. Doka, let me turn that same question to you. What do you think? Do we, at times, get too obsessed with this idea? I understand the natural curiosity of trying to figure out why something like this happens, and what's going on in the mind of the person that would perpetrate such a crime. But is there a tendency n your view, to go overboard on that?
DOKA: I think sometimes it's a fine line because I think, as you said, we try find meaning, try to find some reason to understand what was going on. Is there any sense we can make out of this, which is essentially a senseless act. But I think we often forget to memorialize the victims, the people who the man killed, and to really say, these were some significant lives and they were lost. HARRIS: Yeah.
DOKA: And these are people of value and substance who we as a community, as a society, as a family, want to remember and hold out.
HARRIS: Doctor, that's great because that gives me an opportunity to turn to Jenny.
Jenny, if you would, talk to us, memorialize your sister, Vanessa, if you would, please.
JENNY CAMPBELL, FAMILY OF VANESSA: Vanessa and I, we shared the same friends, we went to school together. She was tremendously fast, and I'll never forget the memories of us on the UC campus, just discussing going to school, and she was just a great person. She loved animals. She loved outdoors. And there's lots of tributes that went on to memorialize, to put her memory in us.
HARRIS: You are still very much grieving, aren't you?
CAMPBELL: Yeah, I mean, you go through your ups and downs, talking about her, makes the grief come about. I also want to say there's lots of people, like friends, family, neighbors, that have helped us get through a lot of this, and also look at your state resources and local resources. They can also be of help, getting counseling and stuff that benefits you and gets through this.
HARRIS: A great piece of advice for folks and the families in Omaha. Counseling, is that what you just said?
K. ANTROPAS: Look for counseling.
HARRIS: Look for counseling, is that what you said, Ken?
K. ANTROPAS: Look for counseling. You will need it. You might not think you need it, but you will need it.
HARRIS: I can't thank you enough, Sue, Kenny, Jenny. I can't thank you enough for being here this evening. It really means a lot to me. And I hope there is something in this conversation that will help the families of the victims in Omaha.
Dr. Doka, thank you for your time as well.
DOKA: Thank you.
S. ANTROPAS: Thank you.
K. ANTROPAS: Thank you.
CAMPBELL: Thank you.
HARRIS: The funerals begin Monday for the victims of the mall shootings in Omaha. Their families and friends still can't believe what happened -- understandable. CNN's Don Lemon reminds us these victims were beloved husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, brothers, sister, grandparents and friends.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DON LEMON, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Beverly Flynn was a gift wrapper at Von Maur but the 47-year-old was also a real estate agent. Every time she closed a deal, she planted a rosebush in the yard as a move-in present to the new home owners.
Customers loved Janet Jorgensen. While she loved her work, her family was her life. She leaves behind three children, eight grandchildren and the husband she wed some 50 years ago.
Gary Joy always ate with his 91-year-old mother. She says he always came when I needed help. But when they sat down to Thanksgiving dinner, Inez Joy had no idea it would be the last time she saw her son.
John McDonald loved music and played the guitar. He and his wife Kathy were together for 40 years of marriage, two kids and seven grandchildren, all girls. They were also together as she watched him die on the third floor of the Von Maur store.
A story best describes 48-year-old Gary Sharve. He recently stopped to help a single mother whose car was stalled. Sharve started her car but that wasn't the end of it. He got her address and later delivered a package of groceries and blankets to her doorstep.
Angie Schuster's sister says she was in a very happy place in her life. They last saw each other on Sunday, and Angie was excited about her fiance's plan to give her a ring for Christmas.
Diane Trent loved her animals, her flowers, and her large extended family. One of six children, she never missed an opportunity to dote on a niece or a nephew. One of those nephews says of her, she was at every birthday we had, every family event, she was there.
Maggie Webb was on her way up in the world, born in the small town of Moline, Illinois, she graduated from Illinois State University in 2005. Then at just 24 years old, she had moved to Omaha to manage the Von Maur store. A few months later, she became this American tragedy's youngest victim.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: It's too early to tell whether Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's speech on his Mormon faith will win over some evangelical Christians reluctant to join his campaign. Some in the religious right strongly disagree with Mormonism.
To understand how Mormons differ from other believers in Christ, you have to travel to upstate New York to the little-known birthplace of Mormonism.
CNN's Jim Acosta takes you there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM ACOSTA, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Far from Utah, near the tiny town of Palmyra, New York, the roots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are on full display. The story told here is what separates Mormons from other believers in Christ.
JOANNE SORENSON, MISSIONARY: This is a recreated log home.
ACOSTA: Missionary Joanne Sorenson took us on a tour of a replica of the log farmer, named Joseph Smith, founded the Mormon Church. In the 1820s he said an angel appeared to him and later guided had to this hill, called Camorra, where he said he discovered golden tablets detailing how Christ visited an ancient civilization in the Americas. The tablets are the basis for the book of Mormon.
The story is re-enacted in this elaborate pageant staged in Palmyra every year.
(on camera): Do you realize that there are millions and millions of Americans out there who don't know this story?
SORENSON: I do. And for some people who hear the story I'm sure they'll think that's very strange. And yet I believe it and I know that it's true.
ACOSTA: This is the most visited site in Palmira, the Sacred Grove where Joseph Smith says he saw God and Jesus Christ in the flesh. It is that vision that sets the Mormon Church apart from other certain faiths.
DAVID COOK, MORMON LEADER: We have certain beliefs that are different from others in traditional Christianity.
ACOSTA (voice-over): David Cook, one of the highest ranking Mormon leaders in the northeast, knows his faith will be getting plenty of attention these days because of the presidential campaign of Mitt Romney.
MITT ROMNEY, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe in my Mormon faith. And I endeavor to live by it.
ACOSTA: But Cook worries Romney is being judged unfairly by some conservative evangelicals.
COOK: I know there are some that view us as not Christian.
ACOSTA (on camera): Is that accurate?
COOK: No. Absolutely not.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Romney witnessed hostility firsthand.
ROMNEY: Hello, sir. How are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am the one person who will not vote for a Mormon.
ROMNEY: Oh, is that right. I can shake your hand anyway?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Mormonism, says religion scholar, Jan Shipps, is undergoing a political test.
JAN SHIPPS, RELIGION SCHOLAR: They've been conducting a campaign to convince the world that the Mormons are not Christians.
ACOSTA: That's something Mormons vehemently deny. At the birthplace of their faith, they too have a nativity scene.
Jim Acosta, CNN, Palmyra, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: I'm Tony Harris. "Lou Dobbs this Week" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com
