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Nancy Grace
Long-Awaited Mitchell Baseball Steroid Report Names Names; Peterson Says Stacy Had Fascination With Guns
Aired December 13, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight, bombshell. A former senator brings down the hammer, exposing the rampant use of steroids in baseball, the Mitchell report naming dozens of players, including a high- profile roster of MVPs, All-Stars and potential Hall of Famers. The stunning 400-page report blames major league baseball and the players union for allowing a serious drug culture to go unchecked, from the clubhouses to the baseball diamond. But tonight, will this explosive report make enough of an impact on baseball and possibly other sports to actually stop the use of performance-enhancing substances?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The secrets of baseball`s steroids era blown wide open today as many of the game`s biggest stars were named in former senator George Mitchell`s comprehensive report on steroid use in baseball. MVPs like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, plus dozens of current and former stars, all part of baseball`s extensive steroid culture. Just moments ago, we heard from baseball commissioner Bud Selig, who says those caught cheating would face some pretty swift (ph) punishment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And tonight, the search goes on for one young mom of two Stacy Peterson, vanishing in the Chicago suburbs. Former police sergeant and suspect Drew Peterson speaks out about a gunfire incident inside their home before Stacy Peterson goes missing. He says a gun did go off, but it was an accident, and his young wife was the one who fired the shot. He claims Stacy Peterson was fascinated with guns and even bought her a Glock as a Valentine`s Day gift. And since a minister came forward with stunning information about the death of Drew Peterson`s third wife, Drew Peterson just can`t seem to stop talking about the relationship between that minister and his missing wife, Stacy Peterson.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have an update in the Stacy Peterson disappearance case, Drew Peterson, her husband, responding to a claim that he fired a gun at his wife. He told "The Chicago Tribune" that it was his wife, Stacy, who actually pulled the trigger. He said she had a fascination for handguns and that he bought her one for Valentine`s Day, telling the paper, quote, "Nothing says I love you like a Glock. That was our joke."
But his (SIC) sister tells a different story. Her sister said that it was Drew that fired that gun and that it missed Stacy by just a few inches. She was in another room at the time.
Meantime, a judge will rule next week whether police should return 11 guns, two vehicles and other items seized from Peterson. He has been named a suspect in Stacy`s disappearance but has not been charged with anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, the bombshell Mitchell report now rocking major league baseball, dozens of star players allegedly linked to performance-enhancing substances.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All-Stars, at least two MVPs, the all-time home run king and a seven-time Cy Young Award winner -- they`re among the baseball players linked somehow to steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs today. Former Senate majority leader George Mitchell released his long-awaited report, hundreds of pages. The report contains the names of dozens of present and former players. He also said every team -- every team -- in baseball has had players involved with steroids or performance- enhancing drugs.
GEORGE MITCHELL, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: The evidence we uncovered indicates that this has not been an isolated problem involving just a few players or a few clubs. Many players were involved. Each of the 30 clubs has had players who have been involved with such substances at some time in their careers.
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LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. A great panel for you tonight to discuss this. We`re going to go right to Luis Llosa, Senior, investigative reporter, "Sports Illustrated" and SI.com. Bring it home for us. What does this mean to we, the fans?
LUIS FERNANDO LLOSA, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Well, this is, I guess, the last straw here. I mean, if you`re a fan and you thought that these guys were not enhancing to perform, what do you have left? You have Roger Clemens, possibly, you have Andy Pettitte, you have Miguel Tejada, you have Eric Gagne, all these superstars involved in this now.
It`s been a rough ride for baseball today, and going forward, you can`t just, you know, put this in a box and say this was a steroid era because there are other investigations ongoing and more names may come out of those investigations. And also, there are ways to beat tests, so even if a better testing system is implemented, will designer steroids become more marketable and more widely used by baseball players to circumvent those tests? I mean, this is an ongoing problem for baseball.
LALAMA: Where there`s a will, there`s a way, I guess. This includes Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Lenny Dykstra, Troy Glaus. I mean, the list goes on and on. So Chris Dimino, sports anchor 790 "The Zone," you know, in a way, when I first heard George -- the former senator`s report, I thought, Well, I don`t know. He`s saying, Let`s forego any kind of prosecution and let`s have a new start. It sounded like the beginning of the war on drugs. I mean, how serious do we take this?
CHRIS DIMINO, SPORTS ANCHOR 790 "THE ZONE": Well, here`s what I know. It took 20 months and millions upon millions of dollars to come up with, in my opinion, not much. You know, it seems funny. George Mitchell and Bud Selig both said the same thing today. They said this report was put forward -- this investigation was put forward to get the answer how and why did this happen? Well, I could have saved them a whole lot of time and a whole lot of money if they would have called me.
Here`s how it happened. It was easily accessible, and there wasn`t a hint that there would be any problem with purchasing, using, even distributing. Why did it happen? Well, that`s simple, as well. That`s economics 101. It was a business decision. They pay more to be in the majors than do the minor leagues. They pay more for home runs than doubles. Plain and simple, the how and why of it didn`t take very long, 30 seconds, and that was free on top of everything else.
LALAMA: Well, let`s go Peter Killeen, former Port Authority of New York police officer trauma expert. You know, one of the things Senator Mitchell brought up very early on was the impact on young people. We cannot forget this is your child who`s looking up to these people. How accessible are steroids for young people?
PETER KILLEEN, TRAUMA EXPERT, FORMER NY PORT AUTHORITY POLICE OFFICER: I think the steroids are very accessible today. And going back to the issue of whether it is a money issue or whatever, I think it`s a message that`s being given out to the students and the kids today that it`s OK if these athletes are, you know, making all this money, then you know what, I`m going to spy (ph) for that, and taking those enhancing drugs is going to potentiate them to be better athletes. And so guess what? They`re going to do it.
LALAMA: Anne Bremner, defense attorney, the fact of the matter is that baseball`s had its greatest years. I mean...
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Right.
LALAMA: ... the seats are filled up. Everyone loves the sport more than ever. Does that say to you the fans don`t really care if these guys are pumping up?
BREMNER: Well, yes. And I -- exactly, Pat. And I was also thinking, Well, maybe they should all be on steroids or nobody be on steroids, so then it`s fair. I mean, we have a 409-page report from Mitchell about all of this that`s based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence. Most people don`t care.
LALAMA: Richard Herman, defense attorney, you know, what Senator Mitchell is saying, Oh, you know, let`s just move forward, let`s not prosecute. However, Bud Selig took a little bit of a different tack. He said, I`m going to go on a case-by-case basis. And then the players union, we all know what kind of stonewalling they`ll probably do. How realistic is it to think that anybody`s going to get punished for this?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they may get punished, Pat, but like Anne just said, you know, this report was commissioned by major league baseball to get an end result that they wanted. So you know, internally, if they want to punish these guys, they can try to. I mean, it`s hearsay. It`s when a drug law didn`t exist prior to `03 in major league baseball. There`s a lot of problems with this report. There`s a lot of problems with the hearsay findings. And you know, they may just want to move forward.
But you know, when a guy like Roger Clemens`s fastball is faster in his 40s than it was when he was in 20s, and Barry Bonds`s shoe size grows three inches, I mean, it doesn`t take a rocket scientist to know that, you know, there`s steroids going on in baseball.
LALAMA: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, what kind of psychological impact will this have on, let`s start with the players and then the fans.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I mean, the players are probably shaking in their boots, at this point. But I think the biggest impact has been on the youth of our culture. I mean, they look up to these guys. Their parents encourage them to get scholarships, athletic scholarships to go to college. And so the use of performance-enhancing drugs amongst our youth has run rampant, at this point. And if you`re a parent, tonight is the night to have a dialogue with your children, to have a dialogue that being a good athlete means that you follow the rules of the game.
LALAMA: Well, that takes us to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins. This stuff is dangerous, dangerous stuff. What in the world can we do to keep the next generation from getting involved?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, what we`re witnessing right now is a massive collision between an Internet era and a time when competition to perform well in sports is at the utmost importance. So we`re seeing a lot of these drugs that have really very small and few short-term consequences getting really popular.
LALAMA: Luis Llosa from "Sports Illustrated," my understanding is Senator Mitchell had, A, no subpoena power, and no access to any previous test results. What`s the point of the commission?
LLOSA: Well, exactly. I mean, that`s -- he was under tough constraints, to begin with. And here`s what you do, you take Kirk Radomski, the Mets -- the Mets clubhouse attendant. You take him away and the stuff that Mitchell learned because the Balco guys forced under a plea agreement for Radomski to release these names and the checks that were signed and all this evidence -- you take away the other 10 or 15 players from the Albany investigation that came up, through Internet pharmacies and wellness centers, who`s left? Eight or ten guys, who include John Rocker and Jose Canseco.
I mean, if it weren`t for those two investigations, the law enforcement ones, we wouldn`t have much in this report anyway, except GMs and different people within baseball talking about a culture that we already knew was -- had -- you know, was endemically problematic, in terms of performance enhancing. So you know...
LALAMA: Yes.
LLOSA: So that`s -- that`s a big question here. But to be fair, other investigations are ongoing. There`s more to come from the Albany investigation. There`s more to come from the DA`s "raw deal" investigation, which traces powders coming from China...
LALAMA: Whoa!
LLOSA: ... and right into your -- right into your -- you know, your neighbor might be a dealer and be using his garage or his basement to mix up these steroids with converter kits.
LALAMA: And you don`t even know.
LLOSA: And you don`t even know about it.
LALAMA: Chris Dimino, sports anchor 790 "The Zone," you know, one of the things I think that Bud Selig did immediately was he said, All right, no more 24-hour warning. I mean, was that just sort of, you know, a good faith, I`m going to show you I really take this seriously? And can we really expect more changes?
DIMINO: Well, here`s the problem that I have with the report overall. Bud Selig should have been the first one interrogated -- not questioned, not asked, interrogated. And he should have been the last one, interrogated again. If George Mitchell didn`t sit down with Bud Selig for a longer amount of time than anybody else and ask him things as simple as this -- Hey, it seems to me that the baseball perhaps was played with (ph) some more runs were scored. Why can I not assume that baseball was turning a blind eye on purpose during all of this?
I find it amazing that Bud Selig seems to be the guy who gets a chance to talk the way he does without ever being put on the hot seat. He should have been first guy. He should have been asked in the middle of all of this, Here`s what we have, what do you say? And at the very end, he should have had the last word. His feet need to be put to the fire, and until that happens -- here`s what I know. Bud Selig is going to be known as the commissioner during the steroid era. I don`t think anything`s going to be resolved, at the end of the day, because I don`t think Bud Selig has the wherewithal to be the guy who can lead baseball through this.
LALAMA: Well, let`s talk about the possibilities. You know, I guess you could argue, if there isn`t going to be an actual prosecution, you could strike the records that exist. You could put an asterisk next to the name. You could keep people from the Hall of Fame. Luis, you know, is any of that going to happen?
LLOSA: Tough to say. I mean, the best example is Marion Jones, who it was known that she was using steroids from `99 on, and the IOC has wiped the slate clean. Every record, every award she won from then until today is now gone, doesn`t exist, it`s taken out of the record books.
Frankly, I think that the same thing should be done in some of these cases where it`s clear-cut because you can`t prosecute these guys for taking steroids when it wasn`t illegal in baseball, but you can take away those awards that they got, if they didn`t do them fairly -- they didn`t win them fairly.
LALAMA: Chris Dimino, who paid for this investigation?
DIMINO: Pat, that`s the greatest point. Nobody`s willing to give a number. To me, what I`ve heard is tens of millions of dollars. I have a question. Were they burning cash in between phone calls during this investigation? Because there`d be no way possible, based upon at least what I read today, that they could have spent the money they did.
Nobody seemed -- it was a baseball-commissioned report. Baseball is footing the bill. Bud Selig was asked today. He didn`t want to give a number, and rightfully so. He should be embarrassed by the amount of money and time that was put into, in my opinion, at the end of the day, basically adds up to things that we all knew.
And quite honestly, at the end of the day, if nobody`s going to be prosecuted -- bud Selig said he`s going to go case to case. I didn`t realize he`d turned into Barnaby Jones all of a sudden. He doesn`t have the wherewithal to actually get the minor things in baseball done right most of the time. Why would I think that his case (INAUDIBLE) investigation? And by the way, why would Bud Selig have to do another investigation on top of an investigation? Is he going to have subpoena power? Is he all of a sudden going to be better at this than George Mitchell was? I find that hard to believe.
LALAMA: That brings me to the lawyers, Anne Bremner and Richard Herman. I mean, the fact of the matter is, if you look at the evidence, it`s a lot of people who kind of ratted out people in order to save their own you-know-what.
BREMNER: Right.
LALAMA: That makes things a little sketchy. They didn`t look at any real tests. What`s the evidence? I mean, would this really hold up anywhere, Anne?
BREMNER: No. And you know, what`s all American as baseball and apple pie? How about all American as due process and the Constitution? This George Mitchell is from the largest law firm in the world. And none of this would be admissible in court. It hearsay, it`s anecdotal, et cetera. And so what does -- where does it get us? We`re not going to prosecute. No subpoena power, et cetera. At the end of the day, you have people that are maligned with no resource.
LALAMA: And Richard, want to weigh in?
HERMAN: Oh, she`s absolutely right, it`s not admissible. It`s commissioned by baseball to get an end result that they wanted. It`s not admissible. The feds aren`t going to prosecute on it. The state`s not going to prosecute on it. It`s going nowhere, really, Pat.
LALAMA: OK. Brennan, caller, Virginia. Hi, Brennan. What`s the question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I live in northern Virginia, and I`m 12 and I`d like to comment on the...
LALAMA: You`re 12?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LALAMA: All right!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d like to comment on the -- this impact on young people.
LALAMA: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, what`s happening is we don`t look up to these guys. We`ve known Barry Bonds is...
LALAMA: Good for you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve known Pettitte. You know, we`ve suspected Pettitte and Clemens. You know, there have been rumors. And we do not look up to these guys. I mean, they`re already good players, and then they just take these and make them better? We don`t -- young people don`t like that. We do not think it`s OK to cheat. We want to play with what we have.
LALAMA: Oh, wow!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know...
LALAMA: There`s hope for America, ladies and gentlemen! You`re a good kid, Brennan. I am so thrilled to get this call.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, how about that?
MARSHALL: Well, he just taught me something. We have a very smart 12-year-old, probably great parents...
LALAMA: Yes.
MARSHALL: ... and great teachers and good community support.
LALAMA: Right. Absolutely. And Peter Killeen, you want to weigh in on that very quickly, a few seconds, as a member of law enforcement? I mean, it really starts with the parenting. It doesn`t matter what they see on TV or on the field, right?
KILLEEN: ... and what that young person just said, you know, they don`t look up to these people as heroes anymore. But we need heroes to identify with, and these kids nowadays in high school and grammar school, they need those heroes that they`re going to be able to look up to. And something will come out of this, I think, something positive, but it`s just the beginning. It`s going to transfer over to any other sport, as well.
LALAMA: Well, Brennan`s my hero as of right now.
To tonight`s "Case Alert." Las Vegas police make an arrest in a school bus stop shooting leaving six young students injured, 18-year-old Nicco Tatum now in custody in Denver after a tip he was heading to Chicago on a bus, Tatum facing six counts of attempted murder and six counts of battery with a deadly weapon. A second suspect is still on the run. Police say the after-school shooting may be linked to a previous fight at a high school over a girl.
And on a much lighter note, it`s a brand-new message from Nancy about the twins. You can check this out at CNN.com/nancygrace. And coming soon, video of Nancy with the twins will make its debut on the baby blog. And remember, Nancy returns to Headline News January 7 at 8:00 PM Eastern in this very chair where I`m sitting. Mark it down on your calendars.
When we come back, the search for young mom Stacy Peterson. Her former police sergeant husband, a suspect, tells his side about a gunfire incident before Stacy Peterson goes missing.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL BRODSKY, ATTORNEY FOR DREW PETERSON: Drew bought Stacy a Glock, a .9-millimeter Glock, as a present. Stacy would -- used to like to handle the gun from time to time. She was up in the bedroom handling the gun, and it accidentally discharged, striking the floor. She was embarrassed. Nobody called the police because she was embarrassed. They didn`t want to get anybody involved. Nobody was hurt, so they just let it go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Of course, Joel Brodsky talking about this gunfire incident at the Peterson house before Stacy went missing. And Kathy Chaney, Drew has now come forward and he`s talking about it publicly, saying she had a fascination with guns, and he gave her a Glock for Valentine`s Day because nothing says I love you like a Glock, right?
KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": Yes, and...
LALAMA: Those are his words, not mine.
CHANEY: Exactly. That is what he said, and he is explaining what Cassandra Cales said that Stacy told her, that he fired the gun. He`s saying that she fired the gun. It was her mistake. It was her accident. She was embarrassed about it, not the other way around.
LALAMA: All right. Well, we`re fortunate to have Steve Carcerano, a friend of Drew Peterson, with us. And we appreciate your time. You probably want to defend Drew on this. He`s saying she had a fascination with guns. Everybody else says, No way. What do you say?
STEVE CARCERANO, FRIEND OF DREW PETERSON: The incident that happened up in the bedroom was Stacy did fire the gun, and it was an accidental shooting into the floor. I actually went over there yesterday and took a look at the garage and saw the bullet hole in the ceiling. I think the story that we heard was that Cassandra said that Stacy told her that Drew shot the gun off, and before shooting the gun off, he asked her to go downstairs and get him a can of beer in the garage, and then the gun went off. But that`s not true at all.
LALAMA: Well, Kathy, I think the way it goes is that Stacy`s family is saying that -- like Steve did mention, that their side of the story is go down to get a soda or a beer, whatever, and all of a sudden, Pow! And she`s freaked out. The question would be, you know, why would she make up this story that -- out of -- what, out of embarrassment, is that the allegation?
CHANEY: That is the allegation is that, you know -- her family is standing by. She`s a mom. She has kids at home. Why would she do that? And if she did accidentally do it, then why would she say she didn`t?
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drew Peterson`s attorney says his client didn`t have any blue containers in his home.
BRODSKY: Stacy`s sister said that there was a blue barrel of chlorine. Now we`re talking -- now we`re told there`s a blue container of cable. I mean, the story just is not consistent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Well, we do have some relatively new information, I believe it`s from ABC News, about, allegedly, Drew Peterson and his former pal now, Ric Mims, who once bought blue boxes from a cable company, and now that`s being looked into.
Kathy Chaney, a little bit of detail on that very quickly, please.
CHANEY: Pretty much, it`s just this -- the color blue is basically what`s coming up again, big blue containers, big blue boxes. So now everything`s blue. It`s kind of crazy.
LALAMA: Steve Carcerano, friend of Drew Peterson, what`s this sound like to you, a witch hunt or legitimate? Did Drew have blue boxes? And where are they now?
CARCERANO: I have heard things from blue containers to blue barrels to blue boxes to a blue tote. When I asked Drew about a blue barrel, when everybody was talking about that, he says, I don`t know what they`re talking about, a blue barrel. So again, I mean, it`s hearsay. The stories keep changing, and it`s crazy.
LALAMA: But Steve, do you -- you`ve have known him. You`re good friends. Have you ever seen blue boxes? Yes or no.
CARCERANO: No, I haven`t.
LALAMA: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would want to know why a police officer and Drew, who knew that children were in the house, would actually allow his wife, and Stacy being the mother as we know her, would play with a gun in the house with children around. That is beyond reason.
JOEL BRODSKY, DREW PETERSON`S ATTORNEY: I`m sure that`s why she was embarrassed about the accidental discharge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, embarrassed?
BRODSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Poor explanation, Mr. Brodsky, poor explanation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. You know, it does sound a little strange, Anne Bremner, defense attorney, I`m not saying Drew is not telling the truth, but my wife, you know, she did it, but she was embarrassed so she put the blame on me.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and Valentine`s Day, I got her a warm gun. I mean, that doesn`t work either, really. But the fact is, it wouldn`t probably be admissible if he`s ever charged. And we hear about everything, Pat: blue barrels, blue crates, et cetera. I mean, is he going to have a blue Christmas with being charged? There`s no evidence in this case yet.
LALAMA: Yes, that`s true, but Richard Herman, the fact of the matter is that none of this gets in court, but it does have a perception on the public. And the public are the people who become jurors should anything happen in terms of him being charged.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Pat, this whole gun thing is ridiculous and the fact that hiss lawyer again continues to grab face time on TV to talk about it and he cannot control his client who gets up there and yaps about this incident, this has nothing to do with her disappearance.
All it does is wreak havoc upon him, there is nothing he can do or say to gain favor in the public. There`s nothing he or his attorney can do or say to gain favor. They both have to shut up right now, go away and let`s see if there`s something, because there`s no evidence here, there can be no prosecution against Peterson unless these two give him one.
LALAMA: Well, Steve Carcerano, that`s a question for you, because you`re like the last man standing in terms of your stalwart defense of your friend Drew. Do you ever say, Drew, the more you talk, the worse it is for you? Or you don`t believe it, you think he`s doing fine?
STEVE CARCERANO, FRIEND OF DREW PETERSON: No, obviously he needs to stop talking. Recently he has said a couple of things when he goes out to the mail and things. But this is an individual that you have to understand, he is getting potshots taken from a fiance from 25 years ago. She is saying things that aren`t true.
Other people are saying things that are untrue. You`ve got the trucker coming out that that was false. You have got Mark Fuhrman saying there is a Krispy Kreme surveillance tape. Nothing has been correct at this point. There`s absolutely no evidence against him.
But, again, he`s supposed to sit in his house and just take it all. And right now I think he`s -- you know, he`s backing up from the media.
LALAMA: Well, let`s hear what some of the callers have to say. Hi, P.J., in California. What is your question.
CALLER: Hi, Pat. You are doing a great job. Love you.
LALAMA: Thank you.
CALLER: And hi to Nancy, we love and miss her.
LALAMA: Yes, we do.
CALLER: I have a comment and a question about Stacy`s pastor.
LALAMA: OK.
CALLER: First of all, I find him to be very credible and do you think he has any legal recourse for the slander he has endured by Peterson`s attorney?
LALAMA: That`s a good question, Richard Herman, because we are going to get to the issue of, you know -- just to refresh ourselves. The pastor said that Stacy came to him and said he did it, meaning that Drew allegedly killed Kathleen Savio. Now is there a legal recourse? Is there libel, slander, malice? What is in there, anything?
HERMAN: Pat, defamation is so difficult. This pastor threw himself into the public eye. I saw that interview with the pastor. This guy looks like he`s about 15 years old. He`s counseling her at a diner somewhere, not at a church? I don`t know what`s going on. That whole story looks so ridiculous to me.
LALAMA: Well, funny you should say that because some of the other comments are regarding her relationship or past relationship with the minister. And if I`m not mistaken, the very words from Drew are that Stacy thought Neil Schori was very cute, that, "she would get all dolled up when she was going to go see him." That she had a big crush on him and, "she would get sexied up."
Now this caused a huge, huge firestorm for his attorney and for Drew. I mean, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, this is like -- I mean, we don`t even know where Stacy is and we`re accusing her of hitting on the minister.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, it makes me wonder if Drew suffers from pathological jealousy because she went to the minister because she felt helped, and did he resent when she got help from other people?
But I want to make a point that even the deceased deserve confidentiality. When Nicole Simpson Brown was murdered, her therapist went on the national television and opened her record and said that Nicole had accused her husband of being abusive, and that therapist`s license was investigated. So the deceased do deserve confidentiality.
LALAMA: Steve Carcerano, I mean, I`ve got to ask you, it seems a little harsh, I mean, you know, to accuse her of like getting hot for the minister. It just -- he has a right to say it and I`m not saying it didn`t true, who knows, but it seems that this is just not the appropriate time to be saying something like that.
CARCERANO: No, it`s something -- if I could say something, he told me about this about two weeks ago, that he thought that she had the hots for the minister. But to take it a step further. This is a 53-year-old man, Stacy is 23. To him he might feel that she`s getting all dolled up and sexed up. But as 23-year-olds today, you look at how they dress. They might just think that they look nice.
So there`s a big difference in age here, which you know, people are taking that to the extreme. But again, that might be how he portrayed her going to see him. I do know on one occasion he did tell me that she drove a motorcycle with her bikini top to see him. Now that`s not appropriate.
LALAMA: To see the minister? Hold on. You`re saying that Drew says she put on a bikini top to get on a motorcycle and go see the minister?
CARCERANO: She went to see the minister and she had her bikini top on. She always drove through the neighborhood with it. But whether she went to see him, if they had a scheduled meeting or not. But he did tell me there was one occasion that she went to see him on the motorcycle.
LALAMA: Anne Bremner, I mean, as a defense attorney, it is -- I mean, I have covered a lot of trials, but hearing this kind of stuff before we even get into a courtroom, it`s like whoa, what do you say about this one?
BREMNER: Well, absolutely. I mean, what is this, you know, hot for the preacher? You know, "Thornbirds"? The bikini top is -- you know, was it the Lafave case in Florida, remember the bikini and the motorcycle in that criminal case? I mean, it just makes your head swim, Pat.
But the fact is I don`t see it coming in the trial. And you know, what we have here is a dead man talking, if he keeps talking. And that is the case it is all going to be about.
LALAMA: Richard Herman, would you tell Drew, listen, Drew, come on, dude, back off a little bit, you`re really sliming a woman, we don`t even know where she is?
HERMAN: Pat, I told you before, I would have his jaw broken and wired, I would take him out of Illinois, hide him away somewhere and not let him be heard by anybody. He`s only drawing the air of the public. He cannot help himself. He has got to shut up. There`s no evidence. Don`t give him a case.
LALAMA: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, I know you wanted to say something going back to be the gun issue and about the comment that was made just recently. I gave her the gun for Valentine`s Day because nothing says love like a Glock.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: "Nothing says `I love you` like a Glock." Well, first of all, it makes me wonder about the dynamics of emotional abuse, because in emotionally abusive marriages, aggression and love are confused. The abuser relates to the victim on the basis of power rather than affection.
For instance, I can love you more if you`re about, whenever you walk out the door and I become jealous, I can wave a gun at you and get you back. That makes me feel more comfortable to love you. So I would wonder if that`s what those comments imply.
LALAMA: Well, it`s very interesting, Kathy Cheney, it`s sort of like he was staying quiet there for while. Now we have got comments about the minister, we have got comments about the gun. So does it seem like he really can`t help himself? He has got to talk?
KATHY CHANEY, THE CHICAGO DEFENDER: Exactly. Like I said the other day, it`s that he`ll be quiet for a while, but it`s in his nature, he can`t stay quiet. He has to, I guess give us what he thinks he want. We want him to talk, so he has got to do it. He can`t help himself.
LALAMA: OK. You know what, I want to try to get in another caller here, Robert in Connecticut. Hi, Robert.
CALLER: Hi, how are you?
LALAMA: I`m good. What is your question?
CALLER: My question is what is the latest information having to do with the investigation regarding the demise of Drew`s third wife? I`m thinking that that could be as big as the media problem.
LALAMA: Well, my understanding, Kathy, tell me if I`m right, that we`re still waiting on results and we may never hear them and it`s basically kind of a closed door right now, that is right?
CHANEY: Correct. Initially the Will County State`s Attorney said that the autopsy results will not be made public, and as we know, they`re either just still pending or they know what the results are and they`re not just letting us know.
LALAMA: And very quickly, Dr. Marty Makary, I mean, just a couple of seconds, you know, even if we did find the results, it`s kind of hard to connect somebody after all of these years, right?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN: Absolutely. But what we do know is that there was clearly air in the lungs. And any time there`s air in the lungs and a drowning, that means that the epiglottis has spasmed. There was a struggle. And water was not able to get through that valve. So that is a very important finding that we know about.
LALAMA: Thank you so much. All right. Switching gears tonight, check out Nancy`s new message about the twins on her Baby Blog. And coming very soon, exclusive video of Nancy at home with those babies. That`s at cnn.com/nancygrace. Remember, Nancy makes her very much anticipated return to HEADLINE NEWS in her chair on January 7th at 8:00 p.m. So mark your calendars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I`m Lieutenant Colonel Jim Aliffi (ph) in Balad, Iraq at LSA Anaconda (ph), wishing all of my family and friends in Decatur, Georgia, happy holidays. I love you. I miss you. Hi, Becky (ph), Nado (ph), and Meg (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did it. Drew Peterson is putting the blame squarely on his missing wife Stacy for the recent explosive detail about a gun going off in their house and nearly missing Stacy. The former police sergeant admits the gun did go off in his house this summer, but he says it was his wife who accidentally pulled the trigger, not him. This of course directly contradicts Stacy`s sister`s version of events.
And also, Drew`s 28-year-old son is questioned at a special grand jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. And before we get back to the issue of the minister and the gun, I just want to go back to Dr. Marty Makary. You said something really that caught all of us, and that was that there was air in the lungs. Now what could that signify, a struggle or that she was in the water, then out of the water, then back in the water? Tell us lay folk.
MAKARY: Well, that`s a good point you raise here. When there is a struggle, when there is wrestling, when there is a gasping for air, a true struggle, then the epiglottis will spasm, and that acts as a valve and air will not enter the lungs. That is why bodies float when somebody dies. And that indicates that there was not a sudden heart attack or a stroke or a bruise or a fall which led to the drowning.
LALAMA: Very, very interesting. All right. We have a new guest now, Anthony Laatz, Stacy Peterson`s family friend.
And you also run the Web site. And thank you so much for being with us. What do you make of Stacy on a motorcycle in a bikini top? Let`s start with that one.
ANTHONY LAATZ, STACY PETERSON FAMILY FRIEND: I don`t believe that has happened. I`m sure it`s just another ploy to discredit Stacy and her personality.
LALAMA: Was she in the habit of running around on a motorcycle with a bikini top?
LAATZ: Not that I know of.
LALAMA: And what about the gun, Anthony, and this firing of the gun in the house?
LAATZ: I don`t believe that she would have fired the gun. She wasn`t all that interested in playing with guns.
LALAMA: You know what, Anthony? Let me interrupt right there, did she ever say to you, I have a fascination with guns?
LAATZ: No.
LALAMA: All right. So, is this all a big surprise to you to hear this?
LAATZ: Yes, it is.
LALAMA: And, Steve Carcerano, I mean, Anthony is saying this is just not true.
CARCERANO: Well, here`s the thing, here`s the thing. She has driven her motorcycle more than one occasion in our subdivision with a bikini top on. So that`s one. Two.
LALAMA: Have you seen.
CARCERANO: . she had a firearms card (ph).
LALAMA: Steve, have you seen her -- did you see her in her bikini?
CARCERANO: Absolutely. I had seen her at the end of September pull- up in front of my house. I had a 25-minute conversation with her with her bikini top on. Not only that though, she did have an arms card that was licensed with the state in terms of the gun.
So you know, maybe her sister Cassandra might have known about that. Maybe this Anthony doesn`t know that.
LALAMA: Well, then let`s go to Peter Killeen, former Port Authority, New York police officer.
How hard would it be to find out whether there was really a gun licensed to her or registered to her?
PETER KILLEEN, TRAUMA EXPERT: That wouldn`t be a problem at all. If you have a gun, you have to have it registered and licensed by the state. That wouldn`t be difficult at all. And it`s really whether she had a gun license and she shot the gun. The fact of the matter is, if you look at this case, it really stinks and one of the key issues here is that the information that I have reviewed was the fact that Drew Peterson, even his own department, they have turned their back on him.
And that`s very critical with law enforcement because that blue wall, if they`re with you, they`re with you 100 percent. And if they`re against you -- so something is wrong and if you look at this guy, he`s very narcissistic and he loves the media, he`s playing to the media and that is what`s going to trip him up because something stinks here.
LALAMA: Well, you know, Peter, that`s a brilliant point you make up. And I`m a big law enforcement fan, but there has been times in this case where I have wondered, have people been covering for him, possibly, if he`s guilty of something, up to now and then suddenly they`re going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is just too dangerous.
I mean, did you get the sense that he did have a lot of support for a long time through Kathleen Savio, through the domestic violence allegations, up until now?
KILLEEN: I think he had a lot of support. And I think with the support from the department. Now here`s a guy who`s in his fourth marriage and there`s something wrong here and the third wife is -- we don`t know if she has been murdered or not. And now this is one us missing, you just look at him and study him and you know that there`s such grandiosity there, he plays to the media. And.
LALAMA: And likes it. Likes it.
KILLEEN: He loves it. And there is something radically wrong here.
LALAMA: All right. You know, let`s go to one of our all important viewers, and that would Aileen in Vermont. Hello, Aileen.
CALLER: Hi, how are you?
LALAMA: I`m good, what is your question?
CALLER: My question is every time I go to visit with my pastor, which has been many, many times, I look my very best. My pastor is a very handsome man, but that has nothing to do with him being handsome, that has everything to do with -- that`s who I am.
LALAMA: Well, you know, if there is something to be said about that, let`s go to Anthony Laatz, a family friend. You know, she got dolled up as Steve has said and Drew has said. You know, is there any wrong with looking nice for the pastor?
LAATZ: No, there`s not. That`s something you do when you go to a church or go visit with a minister, you try to look your best.
LALAMA: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, what about that?
MARSHALL: Agree, when I read this report, I thought, many of my patients when they come to therapy, they try to look their very best, they want to be liked and they feel very grateful for the help. And so they`re sort of giving some back by bringing their best self to the treatment.
Some people who are really regressed, they come all sloppy and sort of bedraggled, hoping that you will love them anyway. But most people want to look their best. Who cares if she had a bikini top? Who cares if she got dolled up? This is the same guy who that said she went off with another man but he has not produced one name or one cell phone record. Can we really believe Drew Peterson?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: OK. Last couple of questions here. Steve Carcerano, a lot of people ask me to ask you, with everyone else seemingly turning away from Drew, what keeps you as the last man standing?
CARCERANO: Well, I have known Drew since 1999. He has always been on a scale from one to 10, a 10 neighbor, a great, great person. And you know without having any evidence, it`s very difficult for me to turn my back on him.
LALAMA: Well, you`re a good friend, Steve, but I mean, sincerely, doesn`t some of this just sound a little bit -- don`t you sometimes go, hmm, that sounds a little strange, never?
CARCERANO: There are times when, of course, I do that. I`m not an idiot and I`m not going to say that some of it doesn`t sound strange, but, you know, look at all the facts that are -- it`s all circumstantial right now and a lot of this stuff has come out as being false, false accusations and that`s why I`m sticking by him. I go to his house, I talk with him on a daily basis and, you know, I`m looking right into his eyes when I`m talking to him and he`s giving me the answers. So it looks different than what the media is portraying.
LALAMA: Well, we commend your loyalty. Anthony Laatz for Stacy, last few seconds here, what`s happening with the family right now? How are you doing around the holidays?
LAATZ: The family`s handling it pretty well, despite the situation that`s in front of them. They`re staying strong through this dilemma.
LALAMA: Have you seen the kids? Has anyone seen the kids?
LAATZ: I do know that Cassandra did see the kids shortly a couple days after Thanksgiving. But that`s the only time that I know of.
LALAMA: Oh, bless all of those children and hope the best for them these holidays.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Corporal Benjamin Dillon, only 22, from Rootstown, Ohio, killed in Iraq. Proud to serve, awarded the National Defense Service Medal, Army Service Ribbon and the Purple Heart. Kind-hearted, always wearing a smile, he never met a stranger. He loved the outdoors, campfires, riding four wheelers, baseball, basketball and golf. He leaves behind grieving parents Linda (ph) and Terry (ph) and two older brothers Nicholas (ph) and Stephen (ph). Benjamin Dillon, a true American hero.
Thank you to all our guests and to you at home for being with us. Remember to visit Nancy`s Baby Blog, cnn.com/nancygrace. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern, until then, have a wonderful, wonderful evening. Good night.
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