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Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush: Storms Clouds Over U.S. Economy
Aired December 17, 2007 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tonight, a startling admission by President Bush. The president telling Americans what we've been reporting for some time, that there are storm clouds hanging over the economy. All that, all the day's news, much more straight ahead tonight.
Good evening, everybody. A blunt admission by President Bush today on state of our economy. The president acknowledging there are storm clouds over the economy because of the mortgage crisis. It was a marked change of tone for President Bush. For months, the president has been insisting the economy is, in his words, "vibrant and strong." Ed Henry reports from the White House. Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, presidents choose their words on the economy very carefully because they know that they'll move markets and that's why it is significant that Mr. Bush is admitting there are some problems here in the short term.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): For the first time this year, President Bush acknowledged storm clouds hanging over the U.S. economy, even as he sought to reassure Americans about the future.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I fully understand the pinch some of your folks are going to feel. And, having said that, this economy's pretty good. There are some -- there's definitely some storm clouds and concerns, but the underpinning is good.
HENRY: A far cry from the high hopes the president was projecting back in January at a Caterpillar plant in Peoria.
BUSH: I would suggest moving back. I'm about to crank this sucker up.
HENRY: Before things stalled, Mr. Bush was saying the economy was strong.
BUSH: People are working and putting more money in their pocket. And the question facing the country is, what are we going to do to make sure it's strong tomorrow?
HENRY: The day after that stop in Illinois, the president was bursting with optimism as he visited New York City to deliver what he billed as a state-of-the-economy speech. BUSH: As we begin this new year, America's businesses and entrepreneurs are creating new jobs every day. Workers are making more money. Their paychecks are going further. Consumers are confident. Investors are optimistic.
HENRY: While the president now acknowledges some trouble, he's trying to point the finger at Democrats.
BUSH: And the most negative thing the Congress can do in the face of some economic uncertainty is to raise taxes on the American people.
HENRY: Democrats insist the president is trying to distract attention from a possible recession.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: The administration continues to see the economy through rose-colored glasses, whether it be the subprime crisis, the credit crisis, the energy crisis, the declining dollar crisis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now the president says he has taken steps to help the economy from his early tax cuts to that recent plan to deal with the mortgage mess. But the fact is that in his final year, Mr. Bush would much rather be spending time taking victory laps on key issues, rather than dealing with a potential recession that could doom his legacy. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Ed Henry. Thanks, Ed.
Now President Bush of course still insists the economy is still quote, "pretty good." Millions of homeowners are in danger of losing their homes because of the mortgage crisis. And there are concerns in some quarters that the economy is on the brink of recession. Christine Romans reports on the escalating war on the middle class.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the president, corporate America and the very rich, this economy is pretty good. But that pinch, as the president calls it, for many feels more like a sucker punch. Stagnant and declining wages are not keeping pace with rising household costs. College costs are up 51 percent over the past five years for public in-state tuition. Year over year, food prices up more than 4 percent. Gas up 30 percent, heating oil up 33 percent. A grim scenario prompting former Fed chief Alan Greenspan to reflect back on the bad old days of the 1970s.
ALAN GREENSPAN, FORMER FED CHAIRMAN: We are beginning to get not stagflation, but the early symptoms of it.
ROMANS: Forty-seven million are without health insurance. And then there's the widening chasm between rich and poor, an income gap the president himself in January acknowledged has been growing for more than two decades. New data from the Congressional Budget Office confirms that trend. JOHN IRONS, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: We see that the top 1 percent is getting an even greater share of the national economy. And that fact is growing, whereas people in the middle are just not seeing the gains that they should see at this point in an economic recovery.
ROMANS: The president meanwhile hails 51 straight months of jobs growth. But this economy is hemorrhaging construction and manufacturing jobs. Corporate profits are strong. But that's thanks to overseas strength and a weak dollar.
And the White House says it's being aggressive in the face of a housing crisis, touting a mortgage freeze plan it says will help 1.2 million homeowners. But an analysis by Barclays projects only some 240,000 will actually be helped by the White House plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: As for that growing income gap, the Economic Policy Institute says back in 1979, the top 1 percent of income earners took home about eight times to what the middle class did. Today that share has grown to 21 times, with no signs of slowing. It explains why so many fear a recession now when the outward signs of the economy point to strength, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Well no matter how they paint this politically in Washington, the American public knows how their economy, their private personally economy, their kitchen table economy is working out. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
Well President Bush today focused on Iran, also the president saying Iran remains a danger to world peace. President Bush made his remarks as Russia delivered its first nuclear fuel to Iran. Now this fuel is for a nuclear power station under construction in southern Iran. The United States and Russia say Iran must now abandon its nuclear enrichment program. But Iran says it won't stop enriching uranium under any circumstance.
A top U.S. general in Baghdad today warned against any rapid troop withdrawal from Iraq. Major General Joseph Fil said Iraqi troops and police are still not ready to fight without U.S. help. His remarks contrasts with the position of Britain. The British yesterday handed over their security responsible in Iraq, to Iraqi forces. Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon. Jamie?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well Kitty, this is the way it's supposed to work. Iraqi forces are supposed to stand up and U.S. or in this case British forces are supposed to stand down. The signing ceremony took place over the weekend when Britain turned over the oil rich province of Basra to Iraqi control. But the British troops aren't leaving. They're staying in their base in Basra in a so-called overwatch position, ready to move back in if things start to go wrong. In addition, the U.S. says it would have the ability to send troops south in necessary, although they say they don't think that will be the case.
As with almost everything in Iraq, nothing is happening on schedule. President Bush originally predicted that all of Iraq's 18 provinces would be turned over to local control by November. Instead, this marks the ninth of the provinces turned over to Iraqi control.
And today, briefing from Baghdad, Major General Joseph Fil said although attacks are down 80 percent, murders are down 90 percent and car bombs are down 70 percent, America is not yet ready to do in Baghdad what the British did in Basra.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR GENERAL JOSEPH FIL, U.S. ARMY: It's clear that pulling out too quickly, before the Iraqis are truly able to take over these areas independently, would be very risky. And there are some areas in this city where at this point, it would fail. They're simply not ready to stand entirely on their own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: As I said, little goes as planned in Iraq. The U.S. thought that Baghdad would be stabilized first and then they would move to outlying regions, other areas of Iraq. Instead, peace is breaking out almost spontaneously in other parts of Iraq and Baghdad is proving to the area where despite the successes of the surge, requires constant U.S. attention. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Jamie, what about the prospect of shifting troops from Iraq to Afghanistan, as that is going quite badly at the moment?
MCINTYRE: Well clearly, NATO has not provided enough troops in Afghanistan. And there's some pressure on the U.S. to do that. But frankly, until there has been a much more significant drawdown of U.S. troops in Iraq, the U.S. simply doesn't have forces to do that. So they'll continue to put more pressure on NATO to provide more troops.
Thanks very much, Jamie McIntyre. Thanks, Jamie.
Two more of our troops have been killed in Iraq. One in combat, the other in a non-combat related incident. Thirteen of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month -- 3,894 of our troops have been killed since the war began, 28,661 troops wounded, 12,829 of them seriously wounded.
Still to come, infighting among Republican presidential candidates. That escalated sharply and Bill Schneider will have the report. Bill?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well Kitty, there's a dustup between two leading Republican candidates. What's it all about? I'll tell you shortly.
PILGRIM: All right Bill, we look forward to that. Also fighting in the Democratic camp intensifies. It's Bill Clinton versus Barack Obama. And Senator John McCain wins another major endorsement. But do political endorsements matter? And one of the country's most distinguished political analysts and journalists Carl Bernstein will join us. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Iowa caucuses just two weeks away and the campaigns are playing hard ball as they compete for voters. Now for the Democrats it's Clinton on the offensive against Obama. But it's not candidate Clinton who's on the attack, it's former president Bill Clinton who's been leading the charge for his wife's campaign. Suzanne Malveaux has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The battle lines have been drawn. It's Bill versus Barack. On PBS's "Charlie Rose Show," the former president delivering this zinger over Senator Obama's credentials to become president.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In theory, we could find someone who is a gifted television commentator and let them run. They would have only one year less experience in national politics.
MALVEAUX: Ouch. Obama's comeback.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I was 20 points down, they all thought I was a wonderful guy. So, obviously, things have changed.
MALVEAUX: Boy, have they. With Hillary Clinton's lead over Obama now gone in Iowa and diminishing elsewhere, it's her husband Bill Clinton who is sharpening the attack describing Obama as.
CLINTON: Compelling, incredibly attractive, highly intelligent symbol of transformation.
MALVEAUX: Symbol. His wife on the other hand he calls an agent of change. Translation, the real deal. What's going on?
STU ROTHENBERG, ROLL CALL COLUMNIST: I think Bill Clinton has adopted a different role. Before, he was a credential for Senator Clinton. Now he's much more of an advocate, a surrogate, taking a more aggressive role.
OBAMA: You don't let somebody else tell you ...
MALVEAUX: Obama is fighting back, citing the very words then Governor Bill Clinton used to take on his critics when he ran for president at age 45.
OBAMA: Here's a quote. "The same old experience is irrelevant. You can have the right kind of experience or the wrong kind of experience. And mine is rooted in the real lives of real people and it will bring real results if we have the courage to change." And that was Bill Clinton in 1992.
MALVEAUX: But Clinton counters he had the good sense not to run when he wasn't ready. CLINTON: I could have.
CHARLIE ROSE, PBS ANCHOR: That would have been '88.
CLINTON: '88. And I had lots of Democratic governors encourage me too. I know in my bones I shouldn't run, that I was a good enough politician to win, but I didn't think I was ready to be president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Kitty, keeping them honest, Bill Clinton was 42-years- old at the time that he was mentioning that. Barack Obama is 46, but the Obama camp says look, it is not about age. It is not about traditional Washington experience, but rather it is about the timing being right, as well as voters seeking change that they believe makes Obama suitable for the job. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Kitty, what does it mean when Bill Clinton is out saying these things?
MALVEAUX: This means that the gloves have come off. This means that everybody is using every tool possible, available to them to make a difference here in this two and a half weeks that is left before the Iowa caucuses. There is a caution some political analysts believe. If Bill Clinton is too harsh, it may backfire against Hillary Clinton.
PILGRIM: It's interesting stuff. Thanks very much, Suzanne Malveaux. Thanks, Suzanne.
Senator Obama, defending his stand on immigration, took a shot against our own Lou Dobbs. Now speaking in Storm Lake, Iowa, Obama said "We are not going to be able to solve the problem if we are just shouting about it, you know like Lou Dobbs and folks on television. Let's actually try to solve the problem."
Well, if Senator Obama had been watching this program, he would know that Lou Dobbs brings open debate on the issue and actually explores ways to solve the crisis of illegal immigration in this country and its impact on middle class Americans.
As the Iowa caucuses approach, the Republican front-runners are battling among themselves. Now the fight intensifying between Republican candidates Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee. Huckabee standing by his remarks critical of the Bush administration, while Romney demanded an apology. Now what is this dustup all about? Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): It all started when Mike Huckabee wrote in Foreign Affairs" magazine, "American foreign policy needs to change its tone and attitude, open up, and reach out. The Bush administration's arrogant bunker mentality has been counterproductive at home and abroad."
Arrogant bunker mentality? That's quite a thing for a Republican candidate to say about the Bush administration, as Mitt Romney was quick to point out.
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I said, well, did this come from Barack Obama or from Hillary Clinton? Did it come from John Edwards? No, it was one of our own. It was Governor Huckabee.
SCHNEIDER: Huckabee explained.
MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I didn't say the president was arrogant. And one of my opponents has -- has mistakenly -- and maybe purposefully -- my position on that. I have said that the policies have been arrogant.
SCHNEIDER: Huckabee wrote: "Much like a top high school student, if the United States is modest about its abilities and achievements, if it generous in helping others, it is loved. But, if it attempts to dominate others, it is despised."
Republican caucus and primary voters may not worry too much about whether the United States is loved.
ROMNEY: The truth of the matter is, this president has kept us safe these last six years. And that has not been easy to do.
SCHNEIDER: Sixty-one percent of Republicans approve of the way President Bush has handled foreign policy. Nearly a third are critical. At the same time, about half of Republicans endorse the view that the next president should take the country in a new direction.
HUCKABEE: I have got to show that I do have my own mind when it comes to how this country ought to lead, not only within its own borders, but across the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Huckabee is betting that the desire to change has resonance, even among Republicans. Now there's a risky bet. He risks being called disloyal to a Republican president. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Bill Schneider. Thanks, Bill.
The presidential campaign is intensifying. Senator John McCain picking up some key backing and Carl Bernstein will join us to discuss the impact of that endorsement among voters. We'll have all that a little bit later in the broadcast.
But time now for some of your thoughts. Fred in Pennsylvania writes: "Lou, today my wife and I who were registered Democrats for 40 plus years, changed our status to Independent. We watch your show every night and your reports are right on. Keep up the good work and keep telling it like it is."
And Adriane in Arizona: "Lou, I come from a long line of Democrats. However, with a great deal of insight from your show and a strong dose of common sense, my entire family, myself included, are now registered proud Independents." We'll have more of your e-mail a little bit later in the broadcast. And each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of Lou's new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Coming up, U.S. workers claim there's no justification for bringing in cheap foreign labor to work on American farms. We'll have that story.
Also, new endorsements breathe life into a stagnant McCain campaign. But do they really mean anything to the voters? Carl Bernstein will join us to discuss that and a lot more, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A new challenge tonight to the agriculture industry over the use of foreign farm workers. The United Farm Workers and Farm Workers Justice are suing the Labor Department for information about employers who use the H2A visa. Now at issue is whether large farming operations are importing cheap foreign labor at the expense of legal workers in the country. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (vice-over): For years, tech companies have warned of worker shortages and lobbied Congress for increases for more foreign workers, invoking images of a collapsed technology industry.
Farmers watched and learned and they now are warning of worker shortages. But there are some differences between foreign farm workers and foreign computer workers. For example, there is no limit on the number of farm workers that farmers can bring in. And there are more stringent rules governing pay and working conditions that the farmers must follow.
Farm worker advocates believe the farmers are crying shortage to get the government to relax the rules and lower wage requirements. They don't believe there's any worker shortage.
ERIK NICHOLSON, UNITED FARM WORKERS: We're at the largest farm workers union in the United States and they have made no effort to talk to us. We think it would be a no brainer if you're looking for domestic workers, well tell us, and we'll get the word out.
TUCKER: To help workers get these jobs, Farmworker Justice and the United Farm Workers asked the Department of Labor to release the names of employers who use the H2A visa program, the visa for agricultural and season workers. Under the rules, those employers must document that they looked for U.S. and legal domestic workers before they brought in guest workers. The Labor Department has refused to release the information. The farm workers advocates have sued to get it released, because they believe employers are skirting the rules.
BRUCE GOLDSTEIN, FARMWORKER JUSTICE: There are hundreds of thousands of U.S. citizens and legal citizens who do farm work in the United States. They deserve an opportunity to apply for jobs at agricultural employers that are applying to hire guest workers based on a claim that they can't find enough U.S. workers in these jobs.
TUCKER: The Department of Labor declined to comment on the lawsuit as a matter of policy. On the subject of rule changes, a department spokesman said that rule changes to the H2A visa program are being considered. But that there is no time frame for the changes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now President Bush called for changes back in August. Farm workers advocates believe those change will be to lower wage requirements and lessen the restrictions on working conditions. Which Kitty raises the question that if there is a labor shortage, shouldn't wages be rising instead of the effort to push them lower?
PILGRIM: Well economic logic would point to that. Now is there date to support that there's a labor shortage?
TUCKER: No, there's not. There's been a lot of farmers who say the onions, the potatoes, the whatever will rot in the fields if we don't get farm workers to do it.
There's lots of evidence however to say there's not one. Philip Martin, the ag economist at U.C. Davis has looked at wages in the industry and said farm wages are not rising as fast as other wages in this economy.
The fact that the Department of Labor wants to keep from releasing this information - for some it's just a red flag to say there isn't a problem, they can't document there is a problem, they're skirting the rules. They're around to bring in cheap foreign labor.
PILGRIM: Well it seems critical information for this discussion to be withholding it.
TUCKER: You would think so.
PILGRIM: The other thing that I want to really clarify with you, there's no limit on the H2A for bringing in foreign workers to work.
TUCKER: If I have a farm and I need workers and I can't get workers, I'm supposed to document it. But part of the fear here is I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, which is documenting it - and then I'm bringing in workers from outside and paying them a lower wage. The importation of cheap foreign labor at the expense of legal workers and citizens who work in that industry.
PILGRIM: There's more economic incentive to bring in cheap workers than to actually spend a lot of time looking around for higher paid workers. So the whole economic equation is skewed to bringing in more foreign workers.
TUCKER: Exactly. PILGRIM: Unbelievable. Bill Tucker, thank you very much - thanks.
In tonight's poll, do you believe the government and corporate America should always look for U.S. labor before hiring cheap foreign labor? Yes or no, cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in this broadcast.
Also coming up, Senator John McCain's second wind. But can Senator McCain sustain the political surge? Distinguished political commentator Carl Bernstein is among our guests.
Also the political president election approaches. And new concerns about the integrity of our voting system. We'll have a special report on that.
Also the state of Oklahoma wins a major battle in its fight to stop the harsh effects of illegal immigration. We'll have a very spirited debate on that subject.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The campaign of Senator John McCain regaining some momentum today. Three major endorsements for the senator whose campaign was all but written off a few months ago. The big endorsement from Senator Joe Lieberman, former democrat, now independent of Connecticut. That shocked some democratic leaders. Mary Snow has our report from Concord, New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He was once called the maverick of the Republican Party. He jokes that he may be seen as the eccentric uncle of the Democrat Party. Senator Joe Lieberman, the democratic vice presidential nominee in 2000, he's now turned independent, knew crossing the aisle to endorse republican Senator John McCain for president would draw attention.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (I), CONNECTICUT: You know I know it's unusual for a democrat to be endorsing a republican.
SNOW: McCain says he sought Lieberman's endorsement hoping to show he can work with partners across the political aisle.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it's courageous when anyone crosses party lines to support a candidate from another party. The easiest thing for Joe to do would have been to sit on the side lines in this campaign that way no one would criticize him.
SNOW: While their political parties may be different, they stand together on one issue, supporting the surge in Iraq. Lieberman says he thinks McCain is the best candidate to fight Islamic extremists and Lieberman took a swipe at the democrats.
LIEBERMAN: And I think the Democratic Party to its damage has left that tradition of a strong foreign defense policy tradition, that includes the leading democratic presidential candidates.
SNOW: McCain is appealing to independents in his early primary state.
MCCAIN: Town hall meeting after town hall meeting, people stand up and say why can't you work together? Why can't republican and democrat work together for the good of the country?
SNOW: McCain is hoping to recreate his 2000 victory in New Hampshire when independents supported him but political observers in this state are skeptical.
SCALA DANTE, UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: I don't think he can do exactly what he did in 2000, because times have changed so much. And independents have changed up here as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: One of the big changes here in New Hampshire, since McCain won the primary here, is that independents have helped democrats get elected in recent elections. And this time around, the McCain camp has stiff competition and view stiff competition from presidential hopeful democratic Senator Barack Obama. Kitty.
PILGRIM: Mary, how did the endorsement come about?
SNOW: Well, Senator McCain said that he actually called Joe Lieberman a few weeks ago and asked him to think about it. And Lieberman has said he wasn't really planning on endorsing anyone until after the primaries but this is a very crucial race in this state for John McCain to stay in this presidential campaign and Lieberman decided that he would come out and support him.
PILGRIM: Let's flip this over a bit. What are the repercussions for Lieberman?
SNOW: Well you know that was one of the big questions we were asking him and some democrats have already come out voicing their disappointment and of course saying they disagree with him. Some even said they were saddened by his decision. We asked Lieberman about that. He is in a unique position because he's an independent that caucuses with the democrats. And he reminded everybody today that he is the 51st vote. So democrats rally can't afford in his - what he was trying to signal there is they really can't afford to alienate him that much.
PILGRIM: I guess that's what you call a position of strength. Thanks very much, Mary Snow.
It may be the largest single day fundraising total in U.S. history. Republican candidate Ron Paul raised more than $6 million on Sunday. Now the congressman has a major online following. His campaign already raised about $16 million during the last quarter. In terms of poll numbers, Congressman Paul is still in the single digits.
Coming up, we have Carl Bernstein. He'll join us and we'll discuss the real value of candidate endorsements.
Also, new evidence that electronic voting is putting the democracy at risk. We'll have a special report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: When it comes to the power of endorsements, Oprah's support for Barack Obama is pretty hard to beat. Hillary Clinton has Barbara Streisand, of course a former president. It's not just celebrities. Many politicians and newspapers also put their stamp of approval on the candidates. Do they mean anything at the polls? Carl Bernstein is a CNN contributor. He's also the author of "A Woman in Charge, the Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton," and he joins us now. You've been immersed in thinking about the campaign for a while?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: And Hillary Clinton particularly for about six or seven years.
PILGRIM: I can imagine. Let's start with Lieberman though because that's the most interesting news of the day. The endorsement came out for a candidate who's not even in his own party; a candidate who's been behind a little bit.
BERNSTEIN: The most important thing to understand about both Joe Lieberman and about John McCain is that each is more popular in the other party than in his own party. They are both considered increasingly pariahs in their own party particularly by their colleagues on Capitol Hill and Lieberman in particular is in private held in great disdain but a great number of his colleagues in the Senate who are democrats but nevertheless are a little afraid of his defection. But McCain's appeal, of course, has always been and the reason he ran such a strong campaign in 2000 was because democrats moved across to support him. That hasn't been quite as evident this time around. The important thing about this is that it gives a sense of momentum in New Hampshire with these other endorsements that McCain has picked up in New England from the Manchester union leader, the Boston paper. He also got endorsed by the Des Moines Register. The fact that the press will think he's more in the hunt. Whether voters are going to say the same thing. You know the voters are usually a little bit ahead of both the reporters ...
PILGRIM: There's a big independent sway in New Hampshire, 44%, right?
BERNSTEIN: New Hampshire has always been famously independent. And the people up there like all this attention, and they like being thought of as flinty, a word they like, and independent. What's really important is whether McCain get his machine started again.
PILGRIM: Let's listen to what Joe Lieberman said about the whole endorsement and then we'll get back to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIEBERMAN: Being a republican is important, being a democrat is important, but what's more important than that is the interest and well being of the United States of America. Let's put America first again and John McCain is the man as president that will help us do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: When someone does something like this, or a celebrity say the Obama/Oprah endorsement, does this help?
BERNSTEIN: I think you can't say this about Joe Lieberman and Oprah. I would venture to say that Oprah has both more political credibility and cultural credibility than Joe Lieberman believe it or not. I don't think that Lieberman is a terribly credible figure in our politics anymore and yes he got re-elected in Connecticut. I think he's king of going through his last hurrah here. He's looking for both publicity and he also believes strongly that this war has to be supported and McCain is the one candidate who really has traction on that particular issue and that's why he's going with him. Plus this notion of, I think it's a little bit of more Lieberman hitching his train to McCain than McCain hitching his to Lieberman.
PILGRIM: I want to get you to Hillary because as you say, you've spent seven years writing this book on Hillary, "A Woman in Charge." Senator McCain received an endorsement from the Des Moines Register. So did Senator Clinton and let me just read you the Register's editorial board said, "Both candidates share two essential traits, competence and readiness to lead." What are your thoughts?
BERNSTEIN: Well, if you read that whole editorial, it's a very strange editorial because the first 400 words or 350 out of 720 are about other things and other people. It reads more like an endorsement of a candidate of a high school student body president than the president of the United States. It's kind of disappointing in that regard. And at the same time, it's important because the Register carries same weight with people that have not made up their minds in Iowa. It doesn't go to their own doubts about her that they mentioned quickly in the editorial. Then they don't go into what might it be that has the voters in Iowa moving south on Hillary at the same time that the editorial board, these three women who are the editorial board of the Des Moines Register, have been moving toward her.
PILGRIM: Is this a coincidence?
BERNSTEIN: There's a kind of disconnect between the board and what the voters seem to be saying. It doesn't explain why the voters are moving away from her or their answer to it. They never answer it. The words they use about her experience and some other things can come straight out of my book. And at the same time, the big question, that has to do with her credibility, her lack of spontaneity, perhaps, her lack of candor, and her campaign apparatus, increasingly being viewed by voters there if we were to believe the anecdotal evidence and some of the polls as really an ugly machine sometimes, particularly with as we see what happened in New Hampshire with the so called cocaine issue raised by the chairman of her New Hampshire campaign about Barack Obama and then retracted. Then he resigns. He says he resigned himself with no urging from the Clinton campaign and today she says, well, we fired him.
PILGRIM: It's been a tough campaign. But Carl, we have to conclude. You have such insight I'm afraid we could tap into it further.
BERNSTEIN: I think you need to read the book.
PILGRIM: I think I do. And by the way, the book is "A Woman in Charge," by Carl Bernstein.
BERNSTEIN: You know the interesting thing, not a vote has been cast and every day we're looking at this as if there are huge changes going on when in fact, there's been very gradual movement to the coalescent point now where we see a very tight race in Iowa and a very tight race in New Hampshire and it's anybody's guess who can win.
PILGRIM: Critical time.
BERNSTEIN: And the voters, not these endorsements, are going to decide it.
PILGRIM: Carl Bernstein, thank you very much.
A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Do you believe the government and corporate America should always look for U.S. labor before hiring cheap foreign labor? Yes or no? Caste your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
Coming up at the top of the hour, "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez. Rick.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, the Reverend Al Sharpton, Kitty, could be in hot water with the FBI. Let me explain to you what's going on here. We were the first to have him on last week when he was talking about these allegations that he may have been taking, and this is what the FBI is investigating, that he may have been taking some of his funds from the private organization, pardon me, his nonprofit organization into his more private organizations, for profit. We had a long conversation about that. That's still on the table. The problem now is we understand that the FBI has a secretly recorded videotape of him in a hotel room and now there's discussions of some money that he may have tried to make a deal on during his 2003 presidential bid. The reverend is going to talk to us about this tonight and defend himself against these latest allegations or maybe intimations we should call them at this point in fairness to him. We're going be all over this thing.
And then you know, in Phoenix, there in Maricopa County, Joe Arpaio, he has been going through some demonstrations of late. And these are demonstrations because some people on one side of the argument say we aren't going far enough with the illegal immigrations. Arpaio says we can't go far enough. Listen to this. And then on the other side of the street, you have immigrants' rights activists who are saying just the opposite. This gets nasty. So we're going to have Arpaio here and we're going be talking to him and someone on the other side of the debate as well. So we've got a pretty hot show for you tonight. Kitty, back to you
PILGRIM: We look forward to it, Rick Sanchez.
Up next, a judge throws out a lawsuit against Oklahoma's tough crackdown on illegal immigration. We're going to talk to the plaintiffs and a state representative behind the bill.
Also, serious flaws in Ohio's voting system. Why some fear it could lead to massive voter fraud.
All of that and more when we return. Stay with us.
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PILGRIM: Last month the state of Oklahoma passed the nation's strictest laws targeting illegal immigration. Several groups, including the Coalition of Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders, filed a lawsuit that challenged the law. Last week, a district judge upheld the law, dismissed the lawsuit. Joining me now in Oklahoma is the author of the state bill, Representative Randy Terrill.
RANDY TERRILL (R), OKLAHOMA STATE HOUSE: Great to be with you.
PILGRIM: And joining me now here in New York is Reverend Miguel Rivera. And Reverend Rivera is the president of the Coalition of Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders. And gentlemen, thank you.
Let's start with you, Representative Terrill, I want to point out that this bill passed in the House, 88-9, and in the Senate, 41-6. This was extremely widely supported in Oklahoma and upheld by the judge. Do you think there is any issue here?
TERRILL: Well you're exactly right. This bill respects the overwhelming majority of the will of the people of the state of Oklahoma. It passed by overwhelming bipartisan veto proof margins in both the House and the Senate and was signed by a democrat governor. And by the way, that fact, Kitty, played a very important role in the judge's decision. He said that judges ought to be deferential to the elected bodies. And so that was very much a center point of his decision.
PILGRIM: Let me bring up a quote of what the judge actually said about this case and I think it fairly sums up the case and his viewpoint of the case very clearly. Let me refer to that. The judge said, "These illegal alien plaintiffs seek nothing more than to use this court as a vehicle for their continued unlawful presence in this country." Now, Reverend Rivera, what do you have to say about that?
REV. MIGUEL RIVERA, NATIONAL COALITION LATINO CLERGY & CHRISTIAN LEADERS: Well first of all, this bill is a reality of what is happening when Congress, members of Congress, they don't take seriously matters of immigration. They were supposed to do something. We have 12 million undocumented people, 38 percent of the members of our Latino Angelical churches are undocumented. That's why we have to pursue seeking social justice for the membership. TERRILL: Kitty, he's avoiding your point.
RIVERA: And the reality is - Mr. Randy Terrill, let me finish.
PILGRIM: OK. Mr. Terrill, just two seconds and we'll let you reply.
RIVERA: Appreciate it.
TERRILL: You bet.
RIVERA: To so the reality is that the opportunism that was given to Mr. Randy Terrill, by the way, to both members of parties in Oklahoma, they took advantage. Congress has done nothing.
PILGRIM: OK. You're saying that the state of Oklahoma is --
RIVERA: It's political opportunism for them. That's why the law passed with so much.
PILGRIM: Mr. Terrill, what do you have to say?
TERRILL: Well you know, what you're watching is federalism in action. It's always been the states who have stepped in to fill voids that have been left by Congress, whether that was welfare reform in the mid to late 90s or whether it's immigration reform in 2007. But Kitty, the reverend was avoiding your point and that is that what these plaintiffs were doing, illegal alien plaintiffs, who were seeking to proceed anonymously in this case, they were asking the court to aid and abet and further their unlawful presence here and the court said no, that is not going to happen and that's going to establish a very important precedent in future challenges that will be brought against state and federal - I'm sorry, state and local immigration reform legislation.
RIVERA: Mr. Terrill, I don't see it that way. I see that definitely the judge's position was a non-prudent one. First of all, instead of dealing with the constitutionality of 1804 of your bill, he avoided that responsibility and he went onto seeking technicalities of looking for what standing for, who has standing for it. The reality is that your legislation in Oklahoma is a very frivolous legislation. It's something that was not supposed to be there except for the purposes of giving you the opportunity and giving others opportunity in the legislature of Oklahoma to seek numbers and votes for the next election. That's why we're going back to re-file.
PILGRIM: You intend to appeal it?
RIVERA: Oh, yes, definitely. We're going to be giving opportunity to the judge to reconsider his position.
PILGRIM: Let me get a question in here, Reverend Rivera. This was not a lawsuit by individuals who were seeking to remain anonymous, correct, but it was also some commercial interests. There were two restaurants, two churches, and a construction company and in the judge's words, a handful of illegal alien people who wanted to remain anonymous. Why this conglomeration and was it not a commercial?
RIVERA: 80% of the contractors that need licenses in the Tulsa County area, most of them are Hispanics. 25,000 of Latinos left, fled the Tulsa County area just because this type of a law or legislation created that type of animosity so businesses are hurting. The economy is hurting. Riverside, New Jersey, by the way, Riverside - Mr. Terrill, let me finish. Let me finish. And by the way, you smile pretty good. Riverside, New Jersey, by the way, is an example of exactly what Mr. Terrill wants to do with Oklahoma, a ghost town. Nothing happening in Riverside, New Jersey and that's exactly what's going to happen in Oklahoma if we don't have a solution, a remedy, to this type of legislation.
PILGRIM: Representative Terrill, I believe you would know basically what's going on economically in the state. What's your response to that?
RIVERA: Well you know, the reverend is right about one thing. And that is that there is significant anecdotal evidence that the law is achieving its intended purpose. Illegal aliens are leaving the state, particularly out in the northeast area, in and around Tulsa, out in the panhandle around Guymon and now there's evidence of that beginning to surface in south Oklahoma City. But you know, Kitty, the great thing about that is that's going put upward pressure on wage and benefit levels. People can feel well going into Christmas this year because they're going to feel good about the fact that their neighbor is working at a better wage and benefit level than they would have had we permitted ...
RIVERA: This is polarizing the communities and creating more animosity. And even Senator Coats said clearly this is creating racism among the community in Oklahoma. It's a very sad time for Oklahoma State.
PILGRIM: Gentlemen, we have to hold it there. Thank you very much for being with us.
RIVERA: Thanks for having me, Kitty.
TERRILL: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Reverend Rivera and Randy Terrill, thank you.
Still ahead, rising concerns over Ohio's voting system. That plus more of your thoughts, the results of tonight's poll. We'll have a great deal more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: An alarming new study finds serious security flaws in Ohio's electronic voting system. Now the state requested the study in an effort to prevent a repeat of long lines at the polls and massive voter fraud. Louise Schiavone has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not ready for prime time, the conclusion of a $2 million review of voting machines in the state of Ohio. Computer experts who have themselves examined and hacked into these machines are not surprised.
STEPHEN SPOONAMORE, CYBRINTH CORP.: Here's the truth. There is no computer in the world that cannot be hacked.
SCHIAVONE: In Ohio, a panel of academic and corporate experts and a bipartisan advisory team of election board officials determined that as electronic machines are now configured, there's plenty of opportunity for mischief.
Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner commissioned the study of electronic voting machines, servers, tabulators and memory cards.
JENNIFER BRUNNER, OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE: The memory cards actually provide portals for essentially attacks on the system. We're not trying to be alarmists here. We have to understand with computer based voting systems, we have to expect the same industry standards would have been observed as they would be for the computers that we use for banking or for communication.
SCHIAVONE: Brunner wants Ohio to move to optical scan machines that start out with a paper ballot.
SPOONAMORE: Those paper ballots are then scanned into a machine. The machine is tabulated. You then do random samples of say one half of one percent or once you send the ballots, you manually count them and make sure it matches the machine. If anything doesn't match, you manually count all the ballots.
SCHIAVONE: Election systems and software have vouched for the security of their machines and charged that the report ignored "the fundamental importance of election officials, poll workers and security procedures." Another manufacturer, Hart InterCivic, promised to work with Ohio pledging, "its dedication to providing secure, accurate, reliable, accessible and manageable voting solutions." At Premier Election Solution, which used to be known as Diebold, voted to continue working with Ohio and stated, "The goal must be to create voting systems that incorporate the highest possible barrier to attacks."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Kitty, Ohio Secretary of State now wants to get rid of touch screens in almost two thirds of all the state's counties in time for the presidential elections next November. Kitty.
PILGRIM: Louise, these vulnerabilities are the same that were pointed out months ago. This broadcast has reported extensively on these vulnerabilities in the past year and they're just coming to this decision now in Ohio. Isn't it ironic?
SCHIAVONE: There's been a lot of push back in every state where this has been discussed on this issue. There are a lot of interests who don't want to be embarrassed by these kinds of reports. There are a lot of people who feel that there's nothing wrong with these machines, that replacing them is very expensive.
So it's very difficult getting to this point. But you can really give an A for effort to the secretary of state in Ohio for being brave enough to go forward with this. It was a $2 million study, and she's achieving some results there.
PILGRIM: Well, let's hope so. And there's nothing more embarrassing than a flawed election, I can imagine. Thanks very much, Louise Schiavone.
Now, the results of tonight's poll: 99 percent of you believe the government and corporate America should always look for U.S. labor before hiring cheap foreign labor.
There's time now for some of your emails, and Ken in New York wrote to us: "I'd like to welcome myself to the legions of like-minded former registered voters on the list of growing list of independents. With all the babble from both donkeys and elephants, I can't wait for election day to finally get our just rewards."
Richard in California wrote: "After watching the Democratic debate, no wonder we have such a problem with the illegal alien assault on America. They don't know about it or were they just ignoring it like they have for the past 30 years."
Gary in Kentucky wrote in about the fact that nine congressmen actually voted against Christmas. He writes: "I was a Democrat 41 years. The Christmas vote did it. Next week, I will be independent."
And Harry in Nebraska wrote in about the proposal to make English the official language of this country. And he writes: "How about having to press 3 for German, 4 for French and any other language so as not to offend any group? When I asked my grandmother to teach me German, she replied, 'You're in America, speak English.'"
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose email is read here receives a copy of Lou's new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit."
Thanks for being with us. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "OUT IN THE OPEN" with Rick Sanchez starts right now -- Rick.
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