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Out in the Open

Encore Presentation - What Would Jesus Really Do?

Aired December 25, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. Merry Christmas. I'm Roland Martin.
And if you're shocked to hear someone on CNN saying merry Christmas, well, you ain't heard nothing yet, because this is the Christmas version of "What Would Jesus Really Do?"

Now, this year, Christmas is extra special, because we're sharing it with a whole bunch of presidential candidates. Make that a holy bunch of presidential candidates. Three months ago, almost no one knew Mike Huckabee's name, but, today, he's at the top of the polls going into the Iowa caucuses, leading heavyweights like Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani on the Republican side.

Now, is it divine intervention? Well, Huckabee says, could be.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is only one explanation for it, and it is not a human one. It is the same power that helped a little boy with two fish and five loaves feed a crowd of 5,000 people.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

HUCKABEE: And that's the only way that our campaign could be doing what it is doing. And I'm not being facetious, nor am I trying to be trite. There literally are thousands of people across this country who are playing that a little will become much. And it has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: So, how important is Mike Huckabee's faith to his rise to the top of the GOP? And do the Democrats have a prayer?

Well, we turn to the best political team on TV, CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider, along with correspondents Dana Bash and Jessica Yellin in Iowa.

Dana, I want to start with you.

A busy, busy time for Mike Huckabee, the Christmas ad, the so- called cross in the ad. Then, of course, you have Senator McCain with a cross in his ad. What is going on with Mike Huckabee's rise? It seems like Jesus is his running mate.

(LAUGHTER) DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's pretty good. That sounds like a new bumper sticker for his campaign.

Listen, this is something that is you're doing just so well for him here in the state of Iowa; 40 percent of Republican caucus-goers are evangelical voters. And that is contributing. There's no two ways about it. That is contributing big time to Mike Huckabee's rise.

And if you go to his events, as I have over the past several days, really the past several weeks, you talk to voters, and that's the first thing that they say to you. They like him, they trust him because of his faith. And he plays it up, just like that sound bite you just played. He plays it up big time, whether it's because that's just who he is or because he knows it play. It's a thread throughout his stump speech. It's a thread throughout everything he says and does on the campaign trail.

MARTIN: Hey, Bill, Mitt Romney really tried address the issue of faith a couple of weeks ago in a speech.

I want to play a sound bite and get your opinion as to whether or not it had any effect on his chances in Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together or perish alone."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: So, Bill, was the congregation of Iowa actually listening to Mitt Romney?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they might have been, but if it was intended to win over evangelical voters, I don't think it seems to be working, because they're rallying to Mike Huckabee.

Now, the statement that he made offended some secular voters, when he said, freedom requires religion. Now, does it? I can think of some free countries, like England, that are not very religious. And I can think of some religious countries, like Saudi Arabia, that are not very free.

MARTIN: Now, Jessica, what is going on here? Because typically when you think about Iowa -- and Dana made the point earlier how religion is so important. But all hear about ethanol and all kind of other things along those lines. So, what is it? Is it a matter of morals and values that are forming their opinion? Is what the issue here when it comes to these faith voters?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think you hear a lot about morals and values. And in fact, on the Democratic stump, it's something fascinating. This year, more of the Democrats are really talking about religion, but they're talking about in the moral terms of our imperative, our moral imperative to take care of the poor.

They talk about health care, providing health care for all as a moral imperative. They talk about it in terms of the Iraq war and the economy. They frame all these issues without talking directly about religion or their relationship with God in terms of individuals' responsibility as laid out in the Bible to take care of the lesser people who need your help. And it's a major theme running through especially with the Democrats that I'm seeing in the fields here in Iowa.

MARTIN: And, Dana, Jessica talks about these Democrats, and all of them have really had a major outreach campaign to various faith- based folks. Obama has talked about it.

But let's also deal with Bob Kerrey having to apologize for bringing up the whole Muslim point, and then John Edwards talking about poverty and his faith as well.

So, what's going on with Democrats? Did they figure out after 2004 that, if they did not address evangelicals, even progressive evangelicals, they would have a problem in '08?

BASH: Absolutely.

I mean and you talk to pretty much any Democrat, and they will admit that. That's why the dynamic is the way it is, and just the way Jessica described it on the Democratic side. For a long time, Democrats frankly were just afraid -- you know this -- afraid to talk about their relation, because that sort of offended the progressive, if you will sensibility.

But they realized it did hurt them, and not just because it didn't sort of appeal to Republicans, if you will, but there are a lot of rural Democrats, rural Democrats, who are very religious. And values matter a lot to them. And Democrats nationally were losing them. That's why they're turning to this kind of rhetoric, reaching out on moral and values issues.

MARTIN: Bill, what about South Carolina for Democrats? And, of course, African-Americans make up nearly 50 percent of voters in the Democratic primary. They really want to address them. Is faith going to come up into play more for the Democrats in South Carolina, as opposed to Iowa and New Hampshire?

SCHNEIDER: What the Democrats have to do in South Carolina, particularly with African-American voters, is make it clear that they respect, value and honor religion, as most voters do, but they believe that religion should be kept separate from politics, as most voters do. It's a private matter.

Values are one thing. That's part of politic, morality, values, very important. Democrats talk about that all the time. Religion, faith, that's something else.

MARTIN: Folks, you have gotten to see why this is the best political team on all of television.

Bill Schneider, Dana Bash, Jessica Yellin, I certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

All right, folks, all the presidential candidates want your vote. But throughout this hour, we're going to be asking how would Jesus vote on several key issues.

Here to help us tackled the hot-button issues, from the political left, is Mark Ellingsen of the Interdenominational Theological Center in Atlanta. He's author of the book "When Did Jesus Become a Republican?"

Pretty good title, Mark.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: And coming up actually from the right is Gary Cass. He's the founder of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission. His latest book is called "Christian Bashing."

OK, here's the first question, gents. How would Jesus vote on the death penalty?

Both of you have 20 seconds.

Mark, you're first up.

MARK ELLINGSEN, INTERDENOMINATIONAL THEOLOGICAL CENTER: Well, I don't think Jesus took a side on Democrats and Republicans, but he and historic Christianity have some views that really help us to do politics.

And on most issues, the Democrats take those views right. On the death penalty, for example, yes, the Bible teaches an openness to the death penalty. But Jesus has this hangup about forgiveness.

(BUZZER SOUNDING)

MARTIN: Uh-oh.

ELLINGSEN: Jesus has this hangup on justice.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: And we got to hang up. About time, because you are out of time.

Let's go, Gary. What say you?

GARY CASS, AUTHOR, "CHRISTIAN BASHING": Well, with 20 seconds, we know that Jesus did not forfeit the moral law. He said, I came to uphold it. And if you take someone's life, an innocent person's life, you forfeit your right to life. The cross of Jesus Christ is proof that the death penalty is something that God takes seriously, where Jesus Christ himself died for my sins. So, I believe that Jesus would support the death penalty.

(BUZZER SOUNDING)

MARTIN: I got you. And I would disagree. I think that Jesus would not support the death penalty, because that would not give people an opportunity again to give their soul to him. So, I would disagree on that one.

All right, Mark and Gary, stick around. I will be throwing more issues at you as the show goes along.

Now, start thinking about how Jesus would vote on the Iraq war. That's coming up next.

But first I want to consider the troops themselves. How do Christian soldiers cope with Christmas in a war zone? And how do they kill, when the Bible teaches them not to?

One military chaplain who's on duty in Baghdad helps put it in perspective.

And, later, vanishing nativity scenes, missing Christmas trees, and the war on Christmas at home.

And what does Christmas mean to money who is Jewish or Hindu or Muslim or even atheist? We will tell you which one threw a Christmas tree out of their parents' home when she was 9 years old. We bring them all together.

Stay here to find out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTIN: That's a great shot of a Christmas tree there, but that's a little different than what we normally see. That's coming from the Holy Land, a place I certainly want to visit one day.

Christians view Bethlehem and the Holy Land as places to be revered, especially during the holidays. But we're talking about a region that's known centuries of bloodshed.

CNN's Ben Wedeman is in Manger Square in Bethlehem.

Ben, Jesus was called the prince of peace, but that's not always the case when we talk about the Middle East, especially of the area where the holy land is located.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: No, actually, peace has been rather elusive here for many years, in fact, and certainly in the last seven years, during the Palestinian uprising that's been going on. And, therefore, peace has really eluded this region for a very long time.

MARTIN: Ben, we have some video, and we want to pull it right now, of demonstrations and peace activists. You even had one guy dressed as Santa Claus. And they got into a scuffle with Israeli police. Tell us about that and what took place.

WEDEMAN: Essentially, what we understand is that a group of approximately 50 activists, Palestinians, as well as foreigners, approached the wall that surrounds Bethlehem.

This wall has been put up by the Israelis several years ago to say what they -- to stop what they say are suicide bombers from entering Israel. So, what these people did was go protest that wall. We see demonstrations like this fairly frequently. The only difference is that Santa Claus took part in it -- Roland.

(LAUGHTER)

MARTIN: Now, a lot of folks travel from across the world to the Holy Land. Since 9/11, travel has been down. What is tourism looking like this year?

WEDEMAN: Actually, tourism is looking much better this year than it has, certainly since September 11, 2001.

We're told by local officials that they expect more people to come here than they have in seven years. The problem is, because people are still nervous, not altogether comfortable, that they come very quickly, they go to Manger Square, they go to the Church of the Nativity, which is behind me, and then they leave.

So, it's a better year than we have seen in seven, but there's still room for improvement -- Roland.

MARTIN: Hey, Ben, real quick, I see the lights out there. How do folks there view the way Westerners celebrate Christmas?

WEDEMAN: Well, by and large, the attitude is fairly positive. People here, there are lots of Christians in Bethlehem. and certainly those who aren't Christians, the Muslims, they do, to a certain extent, like to take part in the festivities.

And let's not forget that tourism relating to the holy sites is an essential part of the local economy. So, certainly, you won't hear too many people in this town saying anything bad about Christmas. In fact, they would like to see it happen more than once a year -- Roland.

MARTIN: Ben Wedeman from the Holy Land, thanks a bunch.

And you have a great new year.

For centuries, soldiers of different faiths have found themselves on patrol during the holidays. And sometimes they find themselves in conflict between the religious command thou shalt not kill and the military imperative to kill or be killed.

So, how do you reconcile that?

CNN's Alessio Vinci took that question to some of our troops in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Father in heaven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm glad we washed the trucks, huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Patrolling the streets of Baghdad is risky business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay on the gas, dude.

VINCI: Fear of getting stuck in hostile territory can require help from a higher power.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Earth as it is in heaven, give us this day, our daily bread.

VINCI: For some soldiers, a quick prayer releases tension and, mixed with a little bit of black humor...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes.

(LAUGHTER)

VINCI: ... it boosts morale.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Father, we're grateful to gather here in your presence.

VINCI: Faith plays a big role in the lives of many soldiers deployed in Iraq. Some gather for silent prayer before setting out on patrol. Others express their beliefs more openly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In your way in that you will watch after them.

VINCI: And church services held at most U.S. bases here give soldiers a chance to pray together for friends lost in battle and family far away. Their faith also helps them deal with the anger and resentment that can, and often does, well up inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have been having a lot of problems dealing with the fact that I heard my child's first cry on the phone. And right now, I'm having a lot of problems praising God, because of bitterness.

VINCI: And that is why Army chaplains are always on hand to help ease the pain.

CHAPLAIN TIMOTHY WALLS, U.S. ARMY: Just like human nature, when things are going well and those times people tend not to look towards God as much. When things are very difficult, that forces us to come to our knees, and to come to God.

VINCI (on camera): Each battalion is assigned one Army chaplain. That's about a minister or priest for every 400 soldiers deployed here in Iraq. And they don't just provide spiritual support, but also moral comfort.

(voice-over): This Army sniper says faith is essential to achieve his duties, which include killing other human beings if necessary.

STAFF SGT. CESAR ORTIZ, U.S. ARMY: Me, personally, I have been to have faith and believe that there is somebody above that would forgive me of my sins and protect me always. And I feel like the decisions that I have made would never come back to haunt me.

VINCI: Faith and combat can be a difficult combination for believers, especially when the Sixth Commandment, thou shalt not kill, isn't part of their mandate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amen.

VINCI: Alessio Vinci, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN: Joining me now from Baghdad Father Kerry Abbott. He's a U.S. Air Force major, as well as a Catholic priest. Right now, he's deployed as a chaplain to service men and women in Iraq.

Now, Father Kerry, that's what your troops call you. And you have been on your fifth tour of duty right now. You have been in the military for, what, nearly 20 years. You were an Air Force brat.

How do you confront this whole issue of being a strong person of faith, but being in a position where you may have to kill someone?

MAJOR KERRY ABBOTT, U.S. AIR FORCE CHAPLAIN: Yes, sir, that's a great question. And it is a difficult situation to face. But there are times when we are presented with a certain situation which may cause us to defend those that can't defend themselves and, in extreme cases, even take the life of another person.

But, again, that isn't something we would choose to do, but we would consider it a matter of duty.

MARTIN: Of course, although Christians focus on Christmas, you have Hanukkah. You had -- we just had the end of the hajj.

And so talk to us about when you reach out to soldiers of other faiths, those who are not Christian, and the kind of interaction you have with them.

ABBOTT: As a Roman Catholic priest, you don't need to have a Catholic code or a cipher lock to come and speak to me. And, in fact, much of what I do involves Christians of other traditions and non-Christians as well and even with people who wouldn't espouse a particular faith. But it is a time when a soldier, a sailor, airman, or Marine might approach me because they're wondering at this time of year how their family might be.

Love is common to the human experience. And hope is common to the human experience, regardless of our traditions. And those are opportunities for us to really share and support one another, even if we come from a different nation, a different creed, a different religious background.

MARTIN: Well, Father Kerry, we certainly appreciate your time. And, again, our prayers go out to you and all of the troops.

And for those people who are watching who don't believe in prayer, well, they can send positive thoughts as well.

(LAUGHTER)

MARTIN: We certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot, Father Kerry Abbott.

ABBOTT: Well, thank you.

MARTIN: Now, support for the war and how it is conducted is still splitting the voters this Christmas season. The Democrats and the Republicans want your vote on this vital issue in the upcoming caucuses and primaries.

Just like we did before, we're going to ask again, how would Jesus vote?

Back again, on the right, Gary Cass, founder of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission. And from the left is Mark Ellingsen of the Interdenominational Theological Center.

All right, gents, how would Jesus vote on the war in Iraq? You each have 20 seconds.

Gary, you go first.

CASS: Well, I absolutely believe the Republican position is the right one. Self-defense is a duty we all owe to ourselves, our families and our neighbor. And it's the first duty of government. A strong defense is essential.

The Iraq war was justified on the basis of the intelligence that we had at the time. So, self-defense and liberating those under tyranny are Christian virtues...

(BUZZER SOUNDING)

MARTIN: OK.

CASS: ... just as Christ defends and liberates his people. MARTIN: All right.

Let's hear from the left.

ELLINGSEN: Yes.

Gary didn't say everything about what a just war is. Even if we grant that this was a war of self-defense -- and it certainly wasn't -- it's not a just war, according to the Christian faith, if you are gaining something from it.

And we -- our American companies are gaining a lot of oil reserves from this war. It's not a just war. The Democrats are right.

MARTIN: Well, I don't think Jesus would be for the Democratic side or Republican side, because Jesus had enough power to have peace, regardless of your actual beliefs.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Gentlemen, I certainly appreciate. And we will come back to the both of them throughout the show of how you think Jesus would vote on a variety of issues, hot-button issues.

Later in the show, we have the whole point about same-sex marriages and gun control. So, I definitely want to see what you have to say.

Now, I want you to look at something really -- look at something you might find really odd. This is a politically correct Christmas tree. There's no angel, cherub, cross, or nativity scene.

So, exactly who declared war on Christmas?

Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTIN: Welcome back to our special, "What Would Jesus Really Do?"

I'm Roland Martin.

And merry Christmas to all of you. Maybe I shouldn't have said merry Christmas, because, increasingly, in America, some people have a problem with saying the word Christmas.

A Florida library has ordered its workers not to say the word Christmas.

This is what the library's director wrote -- quote -- "Happy holidays is OK. But, if you initiate even that verbally, you may be opening up concern by some folks" -- unquote. That's according to Danny Hales, director of the Suwanee River Regional Library. Now what kind of sense that that make? But now listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONNA BUCKNER, SALES ASSOCIATE: We got tired of everybody saying "Happy Holidays," when "Merry Christmas" is really what it's all about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: That's a bit more traditional, the story owners in this Tennessee boot barn (ph) said they were just sick and tired of a local shopping mall banner saying "Happy Holidays."

And finally in Oklahoma City, a war is waged on anything Christian, there are no angels, crosses or nativity scenes on or around this Christmas tree in a city building. That's because the city issued an order that forbids city employees from displaying any symbols of clear religion significance in their work space.

Evergreen trees, reindeer and Santa Claus displays are exempt from that order.

And then there's Spokane, Washington. The Spokane Police Department removed crosses from the patches of the uniforms of volunteer chaplains. The city pulled the patches to settle a lawsuit filed by, get this, an atheist who was Lutheran pastor for 30 years. He said it's illegal for religious symbols to appear on government signs.

Well, Ray Ideus is that former Lutheran pastor turned atheist. He joins us now. And for the opposing view, Dinesh D'Souza, he is the best selling author of "What's so Great about Christianity?"

Now, Ray, I got to ask you. What's the deal? You were a preacher for 30 year, what's the problem with the crosses on the badge of a volunteer Chaplin who's giving their time?

RAY IDEUS, ATHEIST AND FORMER PASTOR: I see it as a problem. Because in the State of Washington when a loved one is killed in a car accident, the police have to come to your home in person and the chaplain comes with them to notify you of it. And if that person is not a Christian, it would be inappropriate to have a cross on their shoulder on the patch.

MARTIN: But, Ray, all these years, did you ever problem with the crosses on the patch? All of a sudden, that you've changed because now you're an atheist. So it was OK for you for 30 years, not for someone else?

IDEUS: All those 30 years, I wasn't in Washington, first of all, and secondly, I kept my religion in the church. And I removed the flag from the church because the church is a sanctuary from the world. And there they ought to be able to free, able and free to criticize what the government is doing, what the president is doing. I don't want them to make political speeches, but they certainly should be free to criticize what the government is doing. In a sense, they're the conscience for the government. MARTIN: Now, Dinesh, Ray said that the church is a sanctuary from the world, but the reality is Jesus called his disciples to go forth and bring more folks to him. What do you make of all of this? Do you think this is going too far? In fact, you called this demented, this idea of removing Christ, removing God from the public square.

DINESH D'SOUZA, AUTHOR: Well, I think there's a certain deep foolishness here. And what I mean by that, if you look at history, you see that the hospitals, the universities, so much of our culture and civilization, even the values that secular people and atheists live by, the value of compassion, for example, the value of equal dignity, for example the preciousness of human life, these are values that came into the world because of Christianity. So Christmas in a sense is a celebration of the values undergirding our civilization. I don't see why anyone really has a problem with it.

MARTIN: Ray, you took offense to that word demented. Explain your feelings, why?

IDEUS: No. I said I didn't use it. I didn't use the word.

MARTIN: It wasn't you, it was Dinesh who actually described that in terms of how they feel. Ray, I got to ask you this question. Dinesh talked about the values, and the reality is, a the lot of people believe we're in a Judeo-Christian country, that's where our values come from and so therefore why should we be removing it from society like you proposed when it came to these patches?

IDEUS: First of all, the whole thing started with simply asking the volunteer appreciation night chairman to remove the invocation and benediction. That's all I had objections to. But were when I took to the Center for Justice, they discovered they had a requirement that chaplains had to be Judeo-Christian. We objected to that then in the end, they really objected to us saying they had to minister to all faiths including non-faiths. They really objected. That was their biggest objection. But we were able to settle out of court. So it's settled.

MARTIN: Dinesh, go ahead.

D'SOUZA: Let's remember, that if you have a chaplain, the railroad idea of a military or police force having a chaplain, you're hiring a religious guide to provide a certain kind of spiritual consolation that's unavailable in a purely secular sense. Now people who are religious come in denominations, you're Catholic, our you're Protestant or you're Muslim, or whatever. You don't belong to some kind of generic faith, you belong to a particular faith. So the cross reflects that. There's absolutely no reason a Christian chaplain can't console somebody who is not Christian. The deeper point I think here is simply this, that is that there's a pathological aversion, I think to religious symbolism in our culture.

And we see this at Christmas. If you're celebrating Martin Luther King Day, imagine if someone wanted to take down all symbols of Martin Luther King because there are people who disagree with Martin Luther King, this would be absurd, but we are seeing it with Christmas.

MARTIN: Gentlemen, I appreciate it. We're out of time for the segment. Dinesh D'Souza, Ray Ideus. We certainly thank you and gentlemen, have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

D'SOUZA: Thank you.

MARTIN: Immigration is one of the hot topics of the presidential campaign, and politicians on the left and right each claim the high ground on this issue. So far the debate pits compassion versus security. Just like we did before, we're going to ask again, how would Jesus vote?

Let's bring back again Mark Ellington, our house lefty, and on the right, Gary Cass. OK, gentlemen, how would Jesus vote on the issue of immigration? You each have 20 seconds. Mark, start with you.

ELLINGTON: Jesus has a bias on behalf of those who are getting the shaft. In fact, his favorite people, the Jews, were illegal immigrants. They didn't their papers. Jesus is against those who exploit the poor. This is actually what's happening with regard to the way in which the fat cats are who are employing illegal immigrants and getting cheap labor. Jesus is against that kind of practice. The Democrats have it right.

MARTIN: I certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot. You say Democrats have it right. Let's go to you, Gary.

CASS: No, I do not think the democrats have it right. I think we have to balance the rule of law with compassion. Most illegal immigration is based on some notion that people have a right to a better standard of living. If that was true, why aren't I living with Bill Gates? We don't do that because you can't simply move in where you want just to improve your standard of living. We have compassionate exceptions for political refugees, we spend billions feeding the poor all around the world and no one will die if we secure our borders. It's like I get to go to heaven through the door. I can't - I've got to go over the fence.

MARTIN: You should know, Republicans get more time on the issue of immigration. I'm soccer both of you are wrong. This is Jesus' world, there could be no borders. There's no feed for illegal immigration. I'm sorry, he wouldn't support either position. But I'll say, sit back, hold tight. Both of you please stay with us. Our next vote is coming up, how would Jesus vote on the very controversial topic, same sex marriage. That's going to be a hot one.

And I realize not everyone in the world is Christian. So what do non-Christians do this time of year? Do Hindus put up Christmas trees? I'll ask one next. And he'll be joined by an atheist who says this whole time of year sucks. He said it, I didn't. You'll want to stick around for this conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MARTIN: Welcome back to our special tonight. "What Would Jesus Really Do?" I'm Roland Martin. We've discussed how Christians celebrate Christmas. So we got to thinking how do people of other faiths celebrate Christmas.

Well, David Silverman is a communications director for American Atheists. Michael Gross is a constitutional attorney and here to represent the Jewish perspective. Here is Irshad Manji, my good friend, the best selling author of "The Trouble with Islam Today, a Muslim's Call for Reform in her Faith."

And Vineet Chander is an acting Hindu chaplain at Rutgers University. So I want to deal with Vineet. You talked to our producers and you said look, I love Christmas, trees, presents and all. Talk about that.

VINEET CHANDER, ACTING HINDU CHAPLAIN: I did. I group, born and raised in America, the Hindu faith. I represent the Hari Krishna tradition which is a devotional monotheistic tradition within the broad Hindu family of faiths or community. And speaking from that perspective I really appreciate the devotional significance behind Christmas. I feel like it enriches my understanding of another faith and it also just helps me to be a better person and be a better Hindu, frankly.

MARTIN: I got a feeling, Michael, you disagree with that, you say this nation is becoming too much of a Christian nation.

MICHAEL GROSS, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY: It's not that the nation is becoming Christian. We're not a theocracy, we're a democracy. Our First Amendment separated the government and religious practices and what I'm frightened about is that particularly Christians fear somehow the very strength that they got from the First Amendment that allowed them free religion, flourished with it, better than anywhere ever in the history of the world and now they want to take it away. They're going to cut their own throats.

I feel that we have to support the separation of church and state. And I do not care for this, frankly, whining about war on Christmas. That's ridiculous. I've been around probably a little bit longer than some of you. Surely you know that you didn't have nearly as much as you have now. A great majority of practicing Christians, wonderful. But don't demand it of everybody else. Surely we can respect the concept, admire the prophet, admire and respect the language without being told we have to participate.

MARTIN: You talk about admire the prophet, this, Irshad, is one of the points you rise raised in terms of how muss lips view Jesus.

IRSHAD MANJI, AUTHOR: Jesus is a top tier prophet in Islam and we are told quite rightly that his teachings ought to be as much respected as the teachings of say, Mohammad or Moses. Roland, it's precisely because I love Jesus that I have to wonder if would he have even wanted his birthday celebrated? Wouldn't he have been two humble to crave that validation let alone commercialize it?

MARTIN: Now, David.

GROSS: Yes.

MARTIN: Most people at home probably saying the atheist on the panel, he hates Christmas.

DAVID SILVERMAN, AMERICAN ATHEISTS: Right. We have a war against Christmas. Don't you know this?

MARTIN: But you don't.

SILVERMAN: No, we don't. Actually before Christmas, before December 25 was a Christian holiday it was pagan holiday. Before it was a pagan holiday it was an atheistic secular holiday, the winter solstice which is a planetary event.

GROSS: It's tonight.

MANJI: Oh here you go imposing it on us. Oh you guys.

SILVERMAN: It affects every single human on the planet including you.

MARTIN: We can can't even doubt it.

GROSS: It's only the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. It's the summer solstice ...

SILVERMAN: It's amazing how much the four of us disagree on so many things and how well the four of us get together. It really speaks so sell. But the point I want to make is reason for the season is the season itself. OK? It's a secular event. Atheists celebrate the shortest day of the year because it's a darned good reason to throw a party. That's why.

MARTIN: You talk about throwing a party, I do know that one of our panelists got into some trouble when it came to this issue of Christmas and the tree. Irshad, you tell us this story, you grew up in a Muslim family and something about you tossing a Christmas tree out the door.

MANJI: Yeah, man, I'm a little bit sheepish and embarrassed to say this but I'll tell it anyway.

MARTIN: You embarrassed? No!

MANJI: I said a little bit. I choose my words carefully as you know. At the age of nine I snuck downstairs into the family room and threw the family's Christmas tree right out the window into the backyard because I was adamant that as a devout Muslim family we should not be celebrating anything having to do with Christmas but only later did I learn just how respect and loved Jesus is in Islam. So I figure I got the best of both worlds, I was able to rebel against the commercialization, the materialistic aspect of Christmas at the same time as later, really appreciating you know the spirituality behind it. So I think this is something that frankly all of us, despite our different faiths and non-faith tradition can embrace.

GROSS: I don't feel that welcome. I don't feel comfortable anymore.

MARTIN: You don't feel comfortable with Christmas?

GROSS: No, I feel separated. I feel that the whole concept requires that we be divided. That we be introduced now ...

MARTIN: But you celebrate Hanukkah.

GROSS: Hanukkah is not a national holiday.

MARTIN: No, but if you celebrate Hanukkah and I don't necessarily celebrate it, I don't feel as though I'm set aside. So I can actually participate. I can learn more.

CHANDER: Let me jump in here.

GROSS: But I don't do the same thing that Christians do to non- Christians at Christmastime.

MANJI: But you don't have to engage in the traditional rituals to be a part of the spirit of it. For example, on Christmas Day this year one of the things I'm going to be seeing "The Great Debaters" starring Denzel Washington. What does this have to do with Christmas?

MARTIN: Spending money.

MANJI: No, I'm going to get my sister to pay for it, by the way. Frankly, it's about showing your chops in a nonviolent way. Now for anybody who has ever been an outsider in your community your family, being nonviolent for redemption is a revolutionary message, very worthy of Christ.

MARTIN: Folks we're out of time. Appreciate it. I would love to continue it. We'll do it another day.

UNKNOWN: Peace on earth.

MARTIN: Absolutely. Vanit Chandra, Michael Gross, Ishdar Manji, thank you so very watch.

SILVERMAN: Happy solstice, everyone.

MARTIN: It's probably safe it say that the Bible is quoted more often on this social issue than any other in this country. I'm talking about same sex marriage. Republicans and Democrats are generally split on the issue. And just like we did before. We're going to ask how would Jesus vote? Here to answer that question on the right again, Gary Cass, on the left Mark Ellington. OK, we know this is a controversial topic. How would Jesus vote on same sex marriage. Gary cast you're first up. Twenty seconds. CASS: Jesus affirmed the natural created order. He said for this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and two shall become one flesh. Marriage was created by God for happiness an procreation. Homosexuality is forbidden because it violates the natural order and violates the Seventh Commandments. It's Gospel, Jesus is the bridegroom redeemer.

MARTIN: Gary, appreciate it, let me go to Mark.

ELLINGTON: Roland, I want to be clear that I've been agreeing with you that you can't say Jesus was a Democrat flat out. Just that Democrats have a it right more often. When it comes to homosexuality, the Bible doesn't condemn committed relations. And we've got to remember what Jesus said, before you get all bent out of shape about the speck in your neighbor's sexuality, don't forget the log in your own heterosexuality.

MARTIN: Mark, you made a big mistake, you didn't answer the question. The question there was same sex marriage. And I got to agree with Gary, if we have anything in the Bible, he did speak about man marrying woman, I would disagree, fall on the Republican side of that one. You got the issues confused. But it's OK. You'll have another shot at social security, that's the next question we have. Both of you please stick around and tell us what you think about that one and folks, let's also be real, for the most part, Christmas has nothing to do with religion. It's about shopping. That's where my next guest comes in. His message, please cut it out, stop it -- international.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTIN: The International Council of Shopping Centers estimates we will spend over $260 billion on Christmas gifts this November and December and that works out to over $865 for every man, woman and child in the country.

The guy you just saw? Well, he says all of this shopping is leading Americans directly into debt. He is trying to stop it. I followed the Reverend Billy to see what he's up against, I caught up with him in Herald Square, the heart of New York's Christmas shopping frenzy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

REVEREND BILLY, ANTI-SHOPPING PREACHER: We're slowing down our consumption. We're not going to spend anymore money on a credit card. Hallelujah.

MARTIN: Reverend Billy.

BILLY: Brother Roland.

MARTIN: What are you doing? BILLY: We're saving Christmas from the shopocalypse, Brother Roland. We don't need to get on the interstate with in that traffic jam with an I-this and I-that plugged into our faces and we don't have to get into the big box store and go into personal debt 25 percent interest rate to the bank.

MARTIN: But you got people out here who look, Christmas, that's what we do. We shop, we buy gifts, that's what it's all about.

We can give gifts this year that don't involve the mega corporation, these indebtedness, these sweatshop goods. We can have a creative personal Christmas this year.

Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow debt.

BILLY: What do you make of this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's ridiculous, I really do.

BILLY: Americans are slowing down their consumption this year.

MARTIN: Do you think people have truly forgotten that Jesus is the reason for the season?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think people have forgotten the real spirit of Christmas. What this whole time is about -- I'm Jewish. And the time of Hanukkah, the time of this rite of passage into the New Year needs to be remembered from the heart, it's not a commercial enterprise.

BILLY: You don't have to buy a gift to give a gift this year. Amen.

MARTIN: You got your family here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we have.

MARTIN: What do you make of Reverend Billy saying stop shopping? What did you come to New York for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we're here to shop. And we're shopping till we drop.

MARTIN: So you don't particularly like his message of not shop?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's mad. Business and industry is what America is all about. That's why we're here. You're the best at it and it's great.

BILLY: What would Jesus buy? Slow down your buying. Put the credit cards away. Don't spend 25 percent to the banks. Keep your own cash. Stop shopping!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN: Too funny. And madman is here. Reverend Billy, look, now you're not really a reverend. What really is the church of stop shopping? What is this?

BILLY: We're trying to get the American consumer to draw back, pull back from that product, stop your shopping. That's going to take a lot of faith. So we're faith builders. Some people think we're imposters. Some people think we're from a ministry and it looks like what Jesus wanted to do.

MARTIN: I know that you guys have a docucomedy that came out a couple years ago in movie theaters. But this is really an act. Do you believe your ministry is actually going to have an affect on people shopping.

BILLY: Sometimes you need an act to have an effect on people. You know that. Changealujah, we're trying to get the message across to folks that are lost in shopping. You don't have to buy a gift to give a gift this year, Brother Roland.

MARTIN: Actually, give a gift a little later for one second.

So stay with us right now. Let's turn now to a trillion dollar issue that is dividing Democrats and Republicans. Both parties have different visions of how we should fund Social Security as a federal system that guarantees a minimum livelihood for those of us who retired after years of work. How would Jesus vote on this issue. Let's ask Mark Ellington again and Gary Cass.

OK, guys, how would Jesus vote on social security? Mark, batter up.

ELLINGTON: Republicans got it wrong when they want privatization. Jesus warns against that kind of free market unbridled capitalism. He wants us to be able to protect ourselves from ourselves. That's why he had it with the Book of Acts when he had his followers get a social system. We had had Paul do it and when he had the 16th century reformers set up a welfare system in the 16th century.

MARTIN: Time's up, got to go to Gary.

CASS: No, Jesus would support privatizing it because social security is a family duty and we're to honor our father and mother by supporting them in their old age. Only those without families, widows and orphans deserve any kind of financial assistance.

MARTIN: Hey, I think Jesus would disagree with both parties because they've done a horrible job of fixing the problem.

Gentlemen, thanks a bunch, I certainly appreciate it.

Coming up next, Reverend Billy's choir is going to bring us the sounds of the season. You better believe it won't be cash registers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTIN: Before we go, I have this shameless plug to do. They're making me do this. My latest book is called "Listening to the Spirit Within, 50 Perspectives on Faith." You can pick it up at rolandsmartin.com. And you can wait till after the Christmas shopping season so you don't make Reverend Billy mad.

So check it out. I'm Roland Martin. Merry Christmas, and we leave you with a song from Reverend Billy and his choir. Reverend Billy, the church doors are now open.

(MUSIC)

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