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Nancy Grace
Deadly Zoo Tiger`s Wall Not High Enough
Aired December 27, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: Tonight: After a Christmas Day trip to the San Francisco Zoo turns deadly, the nation struggles to understand how did a 300-pound Siberian tiger escape from its pen, the tiger brutally killing a 17-year-old visitor and mauling two other young men. Tonight, a shocking revelation as the zoo director acknowledges that the wall around the tiger enclosure was only 12-and-a-half feet high and is below the recommended industry standard.
And also tonight, new evidence of the shoeprint on the railing in front of the tiger compound. Whose shoeprint was it? And more startling questions are swirling. Did the zoo do enough to protect visitors, especially since the same tiger attacked a zookeeper only one year ago this month? And was the tiger in any way provoked?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The big question remaining, how did Tatiana escape her pen. The zoo, which was closed for the day, has been declared a crime scene as detectives search for physical evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seventeen-year-old Carlos Sousa, Jr., was killed when the 300-pound Siberian tiger got out of its enclosure. Police shot and killed the animal at the scene, as well. Two other young men are recovering from deep bites and claw wounds. Susan`s parents, meanwhile, are trying to deal with their loss.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just know that my son is dead. I seen him at the morgue. It`s very (INAUDIBLE) he`s the oldest that I have. And I lost everything!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace tonight. The tiger attack investigation heats up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some very legitimate questions about what role these three young men may have had in provoking the tiger. "The San Francisco Chronicle" is reporting that police found a footprint on a fence, a fence that separates the general public from the outer perimeter of the enclosure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a shoeprint on the railing that is in front of the same place where the attacks happened. We have obtained photographs of that shoeprint, and we also have all three pairs of shoes from the victims. And our forensic analysis will allow us to determine if any of those shoes match the print that is on there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: We have a lot of special guests tonight, including a survivor of a wild animal attack. You`re going to want to meet her. But first let`s go straight out to San Francisco and Sebastian Kuntz, news anchor KNEW radio. Sebastian, what`s the latest with the investigation?
SEBASTIAN KUNTZ, KNEW RADIO: Well, Jean, the latest is they`re expecting the zoo to be closed probably for another day tomorrow, as they continue their investigation. And they`re expecting changes to the exhibit of the animal enclosure where the big cats are held at the San Francisco Zoo. Now, there will be surveillance cameras. There`s going to be electrified wire, new fencing, all kinds of new attempts to make sure something like this doesn`t happen again. And all the while, they`re trying to investigate how this happened in the first place, and all of that seems to be resolving around whether one of these teenaged boys possibly dangled their legs or some other body part into the zoo enclosure.
CASAREZ: All right. And the police said today in a press conference that they have no evidence that that did or did not happen, so I think that`s an outstanding question. Talk to us about the shoeprint that they are saying that they found on the railing.
KUNTZ: Well, I`ll start by talking about the wall surrounding the animal enclosure. It was at first said to be a 20-foot-high wall. Now, today, during the press conference, the zoo director, Manuel Mollinedo, had talked about how they actually had some differing opinions about the size of this wall. Turns out the wall is 12-foot 5-inches in height, not 20 feet high. So it`s obvious that that is something of a problem. Also, the moat that surrounds the area is said to be 33 feet wide, which is also a different figure than they were originally saying.
It makes some people wonder, especially after they have given directives to zoo employees not to speak to the media, that maybe they initially sort of fudged the figures a little bit and now are dialing back, once people are realizing that that wall is not 20 feet tall at all, it`s 12-foot 5-inches. And even though animal experts are positive that a tiger cannot jump over a wall like that without some help, it`s still being looked at as kind of a major -- one of the factors that contributed to this just serious tragedy on Christmas Day.
CASAREZ: Let`s go straight out to Jack Hanna, world-renowned expert on wild animals, the host of his own show, "Jack Hanna`s Into the Wild." Mr. Hanna, last night, we were quoting from the zoo director, who said that the wall surrounding the moat, which is really a ditch, was 18 feet high. Now, today he said they measured it, and it`s not 18 feet high, it`s actually a little over 12 feet high. Is that a big difference, in your mind? Do you think a tiger could jump over a wall 12-and-a-half feet high?
JACK HANNA, DIR. EMERITUS, COLUMBUS ZOO: Well, it depends on what -- you`re talking about jumping from the very bottom, jumping up straight up? That might be very difficult. However, if the tiger is on the land and jumping -- see, I don`t know what the angle is from the land above the moat, where the tiger stays and walks around. Is he directly jumping across a moat that`s only 12 foot tall? Is it directly across or is it across and up? Do you follow what I`m saying?
CASAREZ: Yes. Exactly. And why don`t you help us explain this because, first of all -- let`s talk about the moat. The moat is basically a ditch, and the police said today during a press conference that the moat does not have water, that it`s never had water. I think we can envision like a fairy tale, and there`s a castle and you`ve got the moat around this, normally filled with water.
HANNA: That`s right. Just like our tiger habitat at the Columbus Zoo. Exactly.
CASAREZ: Right. So that moat, investigators are saying now, is 33 feet wide. And the height of the wall surrounding the moat is 12-and-a- half. So with all of your experience, how do you think that tiger would get outside?
HANNA: Well, I can tell you now I don`t think the tiger jumped 33 feet. That`s number one. The longest-leaping cat in the world that we know of is a mountain lion or cougar, and I think that record`s 32 feet, from what (INAUDIBLE) from what people have seen, as far as a mountain lion that`s wild.
Number two, this is not a wild -- this is a wild animal but not an animal that`s out there looking for food. This animal`s fed on a daily basis. So if there was this -- this (INAUDIBLE) leg dangling over, if you follow what I`m saying, and the tiger stands up -- and who knows, a big tiger like that may be seven, eight feet at least standing up. If he can grasp anything at all on that wall -- if there`s little -- if it`s a flat concrete wall, that`s one thing. But if it`s a gunnite wall -- you know what gunnite is, molded concrete. If there`s a little any kind of thing at all that tiger could get his paw into to make that one pull-up (INAUDIBLE) very powerful (INAUDIBLE) pull up, then 12 feet`s not that tall. Do you follow what I`m saying?
(INAUDIBLE) the bottom, and all of a sudden, if somebody`s sitting there dangling a foot over or -- or -- who knows? You know, that could be a possibility. Now, did someone bet somebody? You know how young people are, Hey, I`ll bet you you can`t sit there on the wall. Or who knows what could have been said with the individuals that were there. Of course, the only people that know are the two individuals there that I guess aren`t talking. And I think this whole thing can be put to rest here in about a split second once we find out what actually went on that night.
CASAREZ: Right. Well, let`s go out to Steve Rogers (ph), detective lieutenant of the Nutley Police Department You are a CSI investigator. They have said that there is a shoeprint on the railing. And I think we can visualize the railing, like a leaning railing that you would look at the animals, sort of a guardrail type of thing. Now, the police department said they have pictures of the shoeprint and they have the shoes from all three victims. How are they forensically going to try to match them up?
STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, they`re going to do a comparative analysis between the shoes of the victims, as well as the print that was photographed. And there`s going to be two other things that these officers are going to do. One, they`re going to interview animal experts, such as Jack Hanna, to find out if the behavior of such an animal would lead the animal to attack like this one did. And secondly and perhaps more importantly, the victim`s friends and acquaintances -- was there any discussion at all before these young people went to the zoo to, as Jack Hanna put it, dare them to do something, maybe to film it? So all this is going to go on, and that`s going to be a piece to this puzzle, along with that shoe.
CASAREZ: All right. Tina in Ohio. We have the callers coming in. Tina, good evening. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Jean. I want to say you rock. And my question is actually for Jack Hanna. I have cats, always have, and I know my cats sense when there`s a problem. So my question is, will the other tigers that are there -- will they understand the loss of Tatiana, and will that increase any kind of aggressiveness with these animals with the zookeepers or anyone else?
CASAREZ: That`s a great question, Tina. Mr. Hanna?
HANNA: Yes. Obviously, I don`t think it`s going to increase aggressiveness. No, it won`t -- I don`t think it`ll do that. Will there be a loss felt by the animals? Yes, it will be. I don`t think it`ll be that long of a loss because there`s so many other tigers with that one tiger. Now, if you had just two tigers in there for -- been there for five to ten years together, then yes, that could -- they`ll stop eating for, you know, several days, and sometimes maybe a week or so that that would definitely affect it. But when you have several tigers -- and I understand there were four or five -- then I don`t think that probably wouldn`t affect that tiger that long.
But I really believe the one thing, as the officer just said, the investigator, that somebody needs to find out is, What happens every day around 5:00 o`clock or so, when this accident took place? As I said yesterday, what happens? Is there a feeding time? Are the animals put back in their night quarters? Are the animals usually sleeping? These keepers know what these animals usually do every hour of the day because that`s their family. That`s their life. And I think that`s very important to know what these cats usually do at that time of day.
If they`re supposed to be sleeping and someone is dangling something over -- because it`s like you if somebody comes in your front yard, you cross that fence. That tiger knows right away, right off the bat, Oh, this is not right, there`s somebody coming in my territory. And right away, that animal is going to be in an aggressive mood, usually, you know, saying, What`s that person doing there across that fence and coming in here at this hour of the day? It`s just like you would if somebody came in your home. And obviously, they`ll find out that, the officers will, hopefully, soon.
CASAREZ: And that is many -- one of many unanswered questions at this point. Let`s go out to the lawyers because this is a legal story. Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct." I want to talk about the shoeprint because this is forensic evidence. And when you interview witnesses, they can point the fingers at each other, one is deceased, but a footprint can`t lie, correct, Eleanor Dixon?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: That`s true. And you can tell a lot about who was maybe standing on the fence or dangling their leg over the fence. But they`ll be able to tell from that shoeprint, if it matches one of those three people`s shoes. However, you`ve got to look at the other side. It may not match any of these shoes, and then you`re still left with the mystery until one of the victims can talk, the two surviving victims can talk.
CASAREZ: That`s exactly right. Joe Lawless, I picture this railing. Don`t you see parents and kids there, and the kid tries to start...
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely.
CASAREZ: ... to climb up the railing, and the parents say, Get down off of that.
LAWLESS: Absolutely.
CASAREZ: That could be the situation, right?
LAWLESS: Jean, the tiger in this case is innocent. The victim in this case is innocent. The villain in this piece is the zoo. A tiger is a predator. He`s a carnivore. He`s inherently dangerous. And if there`s any way for that cat to get out, which the cat did, it`s the liability of the zoo. That`s like saying they had a substandard containment facility in a nuclear power plant. If it gets out, it`s the zoo`s fault, no one else`s. How do you taunt a tiger? What are you, insulted? unless these people were in that area, in the cage itself, it`s the zoo`s responsibility if that tiger can get out, under any circumstances.
CASAREZ: All right, true. However, Eleanor Dixon, if that shoeprint would turn out to be one of the victims, and if it would be proven that there was taunting going on or something like that -- and CNN has not confirmed that, but it is a report that is out there -- do you possibly see any criminal charges at all?
DIXON: There might be one for whoever -- of course, not the deceased person. There could be. But I see more of a charge perhaps against the zoo itself...
LAWLESS: Absolutely.
CASAREZ: ... because they knew, first of all, the tiger has chomped on somebody`s arm before, had already injured someone. And secondly, the height of the wall may be in question. The zoo knew that. And yet they didn`t have anybody watching this tiger or have any cameras on them or in any way taking some precautions to make sure nothing happened with a tiger that has hurt somebody very badly before.
CASAREZ: Exactly, foreseeability. We`re going to go back to the zoo and their responsibility, but I want to go to a very special guest today. We appreciate so much that she would come on with us. Her name is Anne Hjelle. She is the victim of a wild animal attack. She is a survivor. Anne, are you with us?
ANNE HJELLE, SURVIVED MOUNTAIN LION ATTACK: Yes. Thank you.
CASAREZ: Thank you so much. This was 2004. Can you just tell us, where were you? What were you doing? How did this happen?
HJELLE: At the time, I was mountain biking with a friend of mine, Debbie Nichols (ph), in Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park in south Orange County, and was taken by surprise as we were mountain biking that day by a mountain lion that attacked me.
CASAREZ: What do you remember?
HJELLE: Well, I remember basically catching a glimpse of some kind of fur in my peripheral vision, looking over my right shoulder. And the next thing I knew, I was slammed to the ground. So it happened very, very quickly.
But if I said one thing that might provide comfort for the families of the victims is that during the attack, I really didn`t feel pain. I did feel the strength of the lion, but I didn`t have any pain during the attack. And it happened very, very quickly.
CASAREZ: You know, Anne, I`ve seen some pictures of your attack, and we are not showing them on the air because they are very gruesome and we`re not going to invade your privacy in that relation. But when do you remember waking up? When do you -- do you remember waking up at the hospital?
HJELLE: Actually, I passed out during the attack, when the lion clamped down on the front of my throat and cut off my air supply. But I came to probably 30 seconds later. And at that time, the lion had released, so -- and I was conscious all the way while the paramedics treated me on the trail and while I was being air-lifted to the hospital. So I was aware of what had happened.
CASAREZ: If anybody has any questions, please call Anne because she wants to answer questions tonight.
How did the mountain lion release? Was it your biking friend that was with you that helped in that area?
HJELLE: I think it was a number of things coming into play. My friend definitely played a huge, huge role in saving my life. Without Debbie, I wouldn`t be here today. And five other mountain bikers also came to my aid. They heard screaming and came down the trail to where we were and started throwing rocks at the lion, which did eventually get the lion to release.
CASAREZ: How many surgeries have you had?
HJELLE: I`ve had seven at this point, and they are getting more spread out, which is good. And I`m just thankful that my surgeon -- you know, as long as he feels like there`s something he can do to help me, I`m willing to undergo further, you know, reconstruction. But it`s been -- you know, it`s been a challenging four years. But I feel so blessed to be here still and to be able to still go out and mountain bike and enjoy the sport that I love, so...
CASAREZ: Anne, you are such a survivor. We`re going to be back with Anne later in the hour.
To tonight`s "Case Alert." Shockwaves and chaos follow the assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto after a rally outside the capital, Islamabad. Bhutto, seeking office again as an opposition leader, died soon after the gunfire and bombing attack. It killed more than 20 people. Later, a crowd of supporters carried a casket with Bhutto`s body. No group immediately claiming responsibility for the attack. Pakistan, a nuclear power, is a key U.S. ally in the war on terror. The assassination presents a new threat to Pakistan`s stability.
And more on the San Francisco Zoo tiger attack when we come back. But first, check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins. And coming soon, video on the twins will debut on the baby blog. That`s at CNN.com/nancygrace.
And remember to mark your calendars. January 7, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern time, be sure to join us right here on Headline News.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocked. Shocked. I cannot explain how (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard to believe. (INAUDIBLE) something you never expect to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Never. No, I cannot really explain how we feel right now. It`s...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hurt, very much hurt. Very much hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) part of me (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: And welcome back. I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Let`s go straight out to Jack Hanna. Mr. Hanna, you are such a world expert on this, and we appreciate your expertise so very, very much.
I`m perplexed by what you talked about, the 5:00 o`clock closing time. We know that the gates were closed at 5:00 o`clock, but they allow one hour for the people at the zoo to leave.
HANNA: Right.
CASAREZ: There were about 20 to 25 people at the zoo. Here you have kids that are 17 years old, 23 was the oldest. It`s dark. You can`t really see the animals anymore. Why were they still there?
HANNA: See, that bothered me the last two days because, as you know, I`ve been in the zoo business 40-something years, and it`s great if one of those three were really animal lovers, or even two of the three. In other words, you would say, Hey, let`s go to the zoo. Like when I was a little boy, that`s where I always wanted to go because that was my love.
But if all of a sudden -- if they ask the parents or either of the other two guys` parents or somebody, Did these guys really have a love for animals, and if they didn`t, that`s a very good point, you know, which has bothered me the last two days. Why were they at the zoo at that hour of the day if they really didn`t love animals? Or what were they doing at the zoo? You follow what I`m saying? It`s like going to -- going somewhere to -- to a car race. Like, I wouldn`t go to any car race because I`m not a race car fan. But why would Jack Hanna be there if he were that age with three other -- you see what I`m talking -- it just -- that confuses me, as well.
CASAREZ: Especially when we realize that there were not lights. It was dark.
HANNA: Right.
CASAREZ: The CHP, California Highway Patrol, had to use strobing lights to even see in the park.
Let`s go to Brooke in California. Brooke, good evening. Hi. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean. I cut it up in two parts. I take my son to the San Francisco Zoo about twice a week. We`re zoo members. My question is, is number one, for Jack Hanna. You know, I know the zookeepers actually go around to the front of the cages and throw meat into their cages. And I know sometimes it lands in the -- I don`t know how you say it -- the ditch, the moat.
CASAREZ: Jack Hanna, think about that question. We`ll answer it when we come back.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every lock was in place. There was absolutely no way that that tiger could have escaped out of the back area or the building portion of the lion house, which leads us to believe that the tiger actually must have escaped in some location in the front part of her exhibit. Where she escaped exactly I can`t tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Out to Jack Hanna. Brooke from California was asking that -- a tiger is a carnivorous animal and that the food, the meat, as it goes in, if it could end up in a place that it`s not supposed to end up, and if could that have lured the tiger to ultimately go out of the habitat area.
HANNA: Well, you know, if the guys threw some meat in there, if the keepers have done that -- a lot of zoos -- some zoos feed that way so the folks can see how the tiger eats, that type of thing. So if the meat happened to land in the bottom of the moat, and that happened, you know, every once in a while, then the cat was used to going down in there and getting a piece of meat out of there. Now, if all of a sudden, somebody dangled over the side there and was trying to fiddle around with something, throwing it down at the cat, and the cat jumps up, then that`s -- then that`s your story right there.
CASAREZ: Right. And we also do know that since the first incident with this tiger, Tatiana, one year ago, they put in several safeguards. One was a feeding chute, so that you put the food right through the chute, so that there is no way, they say, that the food can land anyplace else or harm anyone that`s feeding.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New details about that big cat exhibit at the San Francisco Zoo. It`s now a crime scene after the deadly tiger mauling that took place on Christmas Day. The investigation is continuing and now they`re taking a look at what role, if any, the victims may have played in that attack. The teenager who was killed has been identified as 18 year old Carlos Sousa Jr. Police say that he suffered a fatal slash to the throat.
Sousa knew the tiger`s two other victims, two brothers who were also seriously hurt. This morning, the "San Francisco Chronicle" is reporting that one of the friends may have taunted the tiger before the tiger was able to make its way out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: And I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace. That is right, this has been designated a crime scene by San Francisco Police. That means it`s a criminal investigation. Let`s go straight out to Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, from the Nutley, New Jersey police department. You are an expert at CSI, Criminal Scene Investigations. Tell us -- they believe they`re going to open the zoo tomorrow. Yet we have heard that there was a blood trail, that actually one of the two victims that ended up at the cafe began to be injured right outside the habitat.
Is that smart to open the zoo when you`ve got 300 feet of possible blood spatter?
STEVE ROGERS, DET LT., NUTLEY, NJ POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, I`m sure between tonight and the point in time that that zoo`s open, that the police will comb every inch of that zoo, every bit of trace evidence, blood evidence. That will all be picked up. Now, if the police are not satisfied with what they have, that zoo`s not going to open. That`s a call that the police chief is going to make.
CASAREZ: OK, and so important for that investigation, that CSI investigation at the beginning. Sebastian Kunz, news anchor at KNEW Radio in San Francisco, talk to us about the timeline, because today police at their press conference gave a more detailed timeline of when police and fire were first dispatched and what went on from there?
KUNZ: Well, Jean, I understand 19 minutes went by from the initial call to when the shot was fired that killed the tiger. The first attack happened right outside the tiger`s enclosure. That much we know. The details there are a bit sketchy.
It was one of the brothers that survived that was initially attacked. Now, the victim that died, Carlos Sousa Jr., initially, I understand, started to run away and then went back to help his friend, and it was at that point that, at least it`s believed, that the tiger struck the fatal blow and the two brothers ran up to the Terrace Cafe, a little food court near the entrance of the zoo.
It`s at that point that the two police units, accompanied by zoo officials, rolled up on the scene. They saw one of the teenagers there sitting on the ground bleeding from the face and sitting next to him was the tiger, just sitting there. The tiger began to attack a second time. The police units started to distract, made some noise to distract the tiger, and it was at that point the tiger advanced on the plain clothed police officer. And it was at that point that the fatal shot to the tiger was fired. And it all ended there.
CASAREZ: Exactly and what we learned at the press conference today by police is that police and fire were dispatched a little after 5:00 that evening, on Christmas, that they arrived at 5:08 to the entrance of the Lion`s Den, and 19 minutes later the threat from a loose tiger in that park was curtailed.
Let`s go out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dickson, prosecutor from the Atlanta jurisdiction, and Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct."
Eleanor, I`m concerned about the zoo officials, because the zoo has said that they are trained if a zoo animal gets loose, that they have firearms on them, that they have abilities to subdue a wild animal. But it appears as though the zoo officials didn`t do anything. They waited until the police, who we learned were not trained with wild animals, arrived on the scene.
ELEANOR DICKSON, PROSECUTOR: That`s what so shocking about this case; everybody wants to blame the victim here, and you`ve got to look at the fact that the zoo official should have taken responsibility from the very moment they knew this tiger was dangerous and would attack someone. As I said before, no surveillance cameras; they didn`t do anything with any weapons.
And zoos assume some risk too. They know that people of all ages might try to pet an animal or taunt them or whatever. The zoo is the one who has to take the ultimate responsibility here.
CASAREZ: Let`s go out to Anne Hjelle, victim, survivor of a mountain lion attack in the Santa Ana Mountains of Southern California. How are you doing today? Are you still in physical therapy or have you healed to the point that you`re whole again?
HJELLE: I`m doing great. I was able to get back out mountain biking probably about four months after the attack. So physically I`m doing fine. Like I said, I am still possibly undergoing further reconstructive surgery, but physically I`m doing great.
CASAREZ: Now were you recommended by a mental health expert to get back on that mountain bike? Or did you just decide yourself that you were going to do it?
HJELLE: I just decided I was going to do it. I love the sport. I met my husband while I was mountain biking, and that`s what I do and all of my friends do. So it was never a question of if. It was a question of when. And I simply had to wait until I felt like my body could handle the -- how jarring the sport can be. So that was the reason I waited to that point.
CASAREZ: What a hero -- heroine you are. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, let`s talk about the mental aspect to all this. You know, the survivors are still in the hospital, but they say they`re in stable condition; they`re doing well. But the mental aspect of this, that can be lingering, can`t it?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It can, but also, like Anne, you can overcome this kind of a trauma with a really positive attitude. Look at the fact that you recovered, you`re safe, you survived, you went through a trauma. Life can be good if you look to the future and not to the past. You don`t want to dwell on the negative of what happened.
I do want to point out that it`s not just this tiger, it`s any tiger. And if you don`t understand animal psychology and behavior and how they see behavior, you can be in big trouble as a human being. So it`s a terrible tragedy that this happened to anyone at any time.
CASAREZ: It sure is. Let`s go out to Dan Stockdale, who is an expert in his own right, conservationist, exotic animal trainer, TigerGuy.com is his website. What is your analysis of all of this, based on the information that has come out today from the police department?
DAN STOCKDALE, TIGERGUY.COM: The thing that I find most intriguing is we had some misinformation in regards to the height of the wall. Initially, it was reported as 20 feet. Now we`re down to 12 feet. That certainly causes me to pause. the concern is how accurate a lot of the information has been up to this point.
CASAREZ: So how do you think the tiger could have gotten out. If the moat is 33 feet wide -- that`s the ditch -- and then the wall is now, we understand, 12 and a half feet tall, what`s the progression of that tiger? Does it jump down over? Does it jump down into the ditch and then up on the other side?
STOCKDALE: That`s one of the big questions here. That`s one of the problems with this case right now is there are so many unanswered questions. One of the reports that I read said that the zoo`s being very tight with the information they`re releasing. And we have got to know more about this exhibit. We have got to know more about the behavior of the animal, where this tiger was fed, where -- was there a grassy area on the other side of the moat, where it could have launched itself up.
The 12 feet is still is a huge stretch for a tiger. So there`s too many unanswered questions right now.
CASAREZ: Wow, that`s really something, coming from an expert like you. Let`s go out to Joy in Connecticut. Good evening, Joy. What is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, for such a public place, why were there no surveillance cameras.
CASAREZ: Boy, is that a good question. Let`s go out to Dan Stockdale, who his an expert with wild animals. Surveillance cameras; the zoo has admitted that they`re going to put them in now. But they didn`t have them. Is it routine that zoos do have surveillance cameras.
STOCKDALE: Some zoos do, some don`t. My personal belief is that any facility that is open to the public, that is allowing the public through the gates to view the animals, should have surveillance cameras, especially around the exhibits, where they`re housing dangerous animals. Not only does it answer a lot questions because everything`s right there on the tape. But it also provides accountability for those visiting the zoo. People are going to be less likely to taunt an animal if they can look up to the side here and see that there`s video cameras watching their actions and that everything`s being caught on tape. I think it`s an excellent idea and should be implemented.
CASAREZ: Derren in Arkansas, very quickly, good evening. What is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, do any of the victims have a cell phone? And if they did, have the inspectors looked at those to see if they took pictures or video of doing anything in front of the tiger enclosure?
CASAREZ: That is a very good question. My thought was, they were probably running for their lives those 300 yards. But their friend was just mauled by an animal. Sebastian Kunz, very quickly, any evidence there were cell phones on the victims?
KUNZ: In fact, yes. Now, I know that the victim who is deceased did not have a cell phone. Nor did he have ID on him. But one of the other victims -- it was reported today that the father of the deceased victim called his son`s friend on a cell phone to see what the situation was. So I believe there is word that one of the victims had a cell phone on him.
CASAREZ: Very interesting and it will be also interesting if they called 911 at all.
More on the San Francisco Zoo tiger attack when we come back. But first, check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins. Coming soon, video of the twins will debut on the Baby Blog. That`s at CNN.com/NancyGrace. Remember to mark your calendars; Nancy is back January 7th, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Be sure to join us right here on Headline News.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re also learning some chilling details about where the three young men were when the tiger attacked. Apparently they were all together. The two surviving victims apparently witnessed the whole thing, witnessed their friend being attacked and killed right there on the spot. Carlos Sousa, of course, died on the scene. The other two victims apparently ran for their lives, running some three hundred yards before the tiger ultimately caught up with them.
Of course, they were injured and they are now in the hospital surviving their injuries. What they have to tell police undoubtedly will be critical to this case.
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CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace. Let`s go out to Dr. Mark Siegel. He`s an internist, the author of "False Alarm," formerly an emergency room physician. Doctor, the hospital has said that they are keeping the surviving victims because of fear of infection and it`s infection that could result from even a normal cat bite. How serious of a potential is that?
DR. MARK SIEGEL, AUTHOR, "FALSE ALARM": That`s a really serious potential. First of all, the big issue is blood loss to begin with. They actually got them to the hospital without losing that much blood, which is a great, great accomplishment. When the cat attacks to the throat, a tiger attacks to the throat, there are major arteries going through the throat there; they could bleed to death.
Once they`re in the hospital, we`re dealing with puncture wounds. Cat bites get very easily infected, especially tiger bites, which are deep puncture wounds. This can go on for a long time, so they have to stay on intravenous antibiotics and the have to watch very closely, and the wounds have to be cleaned out very carefully, because infection can occur for several days afterwards.
CASAREZ: That was going to be my next question; how long should they stay in the hospital? Because how often do we see people get released from the hospital, infection sets in, they`re back in the hospital.
SIEGEL: Absolutely, and I`m betting that they got very seriously maimed here. And, again, there may have been significant blood loss which they had to replace. So they`ve got to get the blood counts normal, and then they have to watch them for several days. Plus, wounds have to heal without surgical intervention. If they try to close them, the risk of infection is much greater. So they leave them open. They let them drain. They start to heal on antibiotics, then they can go home.
CASAREZ: OK, very good. Let`s go out to defense attorney Joe Lawless. I was doing a little bit of legal research today, and in California they follow normally a strict liability for owners or possessors of wild animals. In other words, if you own or possess a wild animal, if you do nothing wrong and that animal perpetrates a vicious attack, you are responsible.
Now, there`s a defense to that. And it`s called assumption of the risk. Can you explain that?
LAWLESS: Assumption of risk essentially means the person who`s injured and is claiming injury puts themselves in a position where they are more likely than not to be hurt. And something Jack Hannah said spurred a thought earlier in the program. I would like to know what three 17, 19 and 23-year-old young men are doing in a zoo near a tiger cage at 5:00 Christmas Eve day? In none of the press reports that I have read do we hear that any of them were wild animal lovers or, nature lovers or anything like that. What were they doing there?
CASAREZ: Which, Joe, brings me to contributory negligence. If it`s found that one of those shoe prints is one of the victims, and they were up and over or taunting or anything, can the zoo have that affirmative defense of you contributed to this?
LAWLESS: I think the zoo would absolutely have that as an affirmative defense. More importantly, if these young men and the family of the decease`s victim in this case are thinking about a lawsuit, which I guarantee you they are, that`s something that can go to mitigate any damages that might be awarded. But contributory negligence can also be an absolute defense to liability.
If these men were -- they`re men. They`re young kids -- were talking to their friends about, we`re going to go down to the zoo and we`re going to get out picture taken with a tiger, or we`re going to go down and see if we can touch the tiger -- if that`s floating around out there -- and you`re probably going to have to get that from a source other than the two survivors, because I guarantee you, they`re going to be very careful what they say. But if that`s out there, and it can be proven, the zoo has an absolute defense to this. And I`m sure the zoo is already looking into it.
CASAREZ: Which could be very good for the zoo and it`s liability. Let`s go out to Joe in the great state of Nevada. What is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is your attitudes when confronted by a fairly or mostly wild animal, in that case, your response to that, how can it affect whether you will be successfully attacked or whether you can stand your ground?
CASAREZ: Great question, Anne Hjelle, when you started to be attacked, how did you respond? Do you remember at all?
HJELLE: Yes. My initial reaction was to try to punch the lion in the face. He had me by the back of the neck initially, so I tried to punch over my left shoulder, which was unsuccessful. And, like I said, the only reason that I`m still here is because there were other people that helped me. And I think probably the presence of humans -- the lion, more and more people showing up, probably he got to the point where he decided it wasn`t worth the risk and decided to let go.
CASAREZ: Dan Stockdale, exotic animal trainer, animal behaviorist, did Anne do correctly? What should you do if you are attacked by a wild animal?
STOCKDALE: Especially in the zoo environment, you always want to stay standing up. You want to cluster together with as many people together as you possibly can, if you see an animal that`s on the loose. And, you never, ever run. That`s going to be -- they`re prey instincts, the predatory instincts are going to kick in immediately and they`re going to take off after you. Stand up, stay together in groups and try and get yourself immediately to an area of safety, and never run.
CASAREZ: Very quickly, what do you think about the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, which is the renowned accrediting agency for zoos in this country, passed the San Francisco Zoo for the height of it`s tiger den.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was attacked in the face and drug off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, drug off and the mountain lion clung to her face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, does she have just bite marks or did they take off a lot of the skin?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s skin. It`s pretty bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she unconscious?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she`s sitting up and she`s currently breathing.
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CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace. You were just listening to the 911 call that was made for Anne Hjelle, a survivor of a mountain bike attack -- a mountain lion attack. Anne, who made that call for you?
HJELLE: You know, I believe it was one of the guys who came to my aid, who I didn`t know at the time, Neils Magnusson (ph). There were actually two 911 calls made that day.
CASAREZ: When you hear it, do you relive what happened that day?
HJELLE: You know, I have heard it many times, so it really doesn`t bother me anymore. Even telling the story in the very beginning, when I was in the hospital, I was in shock that it had happened, but I have never had a problem talking about it.
CASAREZ: To the surviving victims of this attack that are still in the hospital, what advice would you give them?
HJELLE: Hang in there. They have a tough road ahead. But, you know, safely there were two surviving victims. It`s horrible what happened to Carlos, but I`m just glad to hear that they`re doing well and I just pray for the best for them and a quick recovery.
CASAREZ: All right. And just to reiterate, the zoo has said that it`s going to make a lot of changes, higher fences, lights, surveillance video, things that it did not have before. But the investigation continues and this is a criminal investigation. So many questions and not too many answers at this point.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember 28-year-old Army Sergeant First Class Justin Monschke of Texas. He was killed in Iraq. Monschke, a special forces Green Beret, was deployed to Iraq in July for the very first time. As a high school freshman he was nicknamed Goose because of his unique running style. He wanted to go into the Army ever since he was a little boy playing with toy soldiers.
He leaves behind his wife, his young daughter and his son, his parents and his grandparents. Justin Monschke, American hero.
Thank you so much to all of our guests. I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace. We will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 eastern, good night, everybody.
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