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Nancy Grace

San Francisco Tiger Attack

Aired December 28, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV CORRESPONDENT: And tonight, the deadly tiger attack mystery continues. What really happened in the crucial moments before a huge Siberian tiger mauled three young men at the San Francisco Zoo. Tonight police and family members of 17-year-old Carlos Sousa Jr. say he spent the last moments of his life trying to help his friends from the Siberian tiger. Was it then that the animal turned on him, ending Sousa`s with a slash to the throat? But there is so much more to this story. Tonight, the two survivors in the hospital are reportedly not cooperating with police and one of the biggest unsolved questions, was the tiger taunted before the attack? Also tonight the San Francisco Zoo remains closed while investigators scramble to figure out why Christmas Day at the zoo went so terribly wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zoo officials making a significant correction. It turns out the wall that protects the public from the tigers is only 12.5 feet tall. According to the "Associated Press," the Association of Zoos and Aquariums say it should be at least 16 feet tall. The lower wall might make a jump by the Siberian tiger out of the enclosure seem more possible, but the zoo`s director is still stunned that the animal apparently made that leap. As for why that wall is only 12.5 feet, the director says the zoo regularly gets visits from the AZA, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums and he says the wall has never been cited for being too short.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And good evening, I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV in for Nancy Grace tonight.

A family grieves and wants to know how their teenaged son died in one of the worst deaths imaginable on Christmas Day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The San Francisco Zoo is closed again today as police investigate the fatal tiger attack on Tuesday. The zoo director says it seems certain now that the tiger leaped or climbed out of its enclosure. The zoo official admits the wall surrounding the exhibit is lower than the national standard or recommendation. San Francisco police are studying photographs of a shoe print found on the railing, but they say they have not determined if anyone went over the railing. The "San Francisco Chronicle" reports those two young men wounded in the attack were hostile with investigators, at first refusing even to give their names.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I talked to my brother`s friend and I guess I come to find out my dad called them to find out where my brother was and they lied about saying they weren`t together and then come to find out today, they were together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police and family members say 17-year-old Carlos Sousa Jr. was mauled to death by the tiger when he tried to distract the animal, which had first attacked his friend.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CASAREZ: Animal expert Jack Hanna is joining us tonight, along with a lot of wonderful guests. But first let`s go straight out to San Francisco and Sebastian Kunz, news anchor for KNEW radio for the very latest. Sebastian, we are now learning the order of the attack by this tiger. The first crime scene was right outside the lion`s den. Tell us what police are now saying about that order.

SEBASTIAN KUNZ, NEWS ANCHOR, KNEW RADIO: Well initially we understand, Jean, that 23-year-old Kulbir Dhaliwal was the initial person injured right outside that zoo enclosure and he`s the person who ran about 300 yards up to what they call the Terrace Cafe. That`s the little restaurant where you can buy food. In fact, this trio of young men was reportedly -- had stopped at this cafe to buy some food before all of this happened.

It started right after 5:00 on Christmas Day. Of course we understand that first attack happened right outside the enclosure and then the second attack where the police were involved and tried to stop a second death from occurring in fact happened right outside the Terrace Cafe, about 300 yards toward the entrance to the zoo and that`s where police fired the shot that finally killed the tiger.

CASAREZ: Sebastian, the "San Francisco Chronicle" is reporting that the living victims that are still in the hospital, that they are not cooperating with law enforcement.

KUNZ: That`s absolutely what we understand. In fact it`s not only law enforcement they have not been cooperative with. We understand they were combative at the time they were taken to the hospital, in fact swearing at some of the doctors that were trying to treat them that night.

CASAREZ: Unimaginable. Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "Killing for Sport." Pat, if you were the investigator on this case and you went to the hospital to interview and talk with the surviving victim and you were met with people that wouldn`t tell you their names, wouldn`t tell you what happened, wouldn`t tell you the names of the victims that died, what would be going through your head?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well Jean, I think No. 1 I would have red flags going up. I think somebody`s feeling guilty about something here because this is not the normal response of totally innocent bystanders getting attacked by a beast. This sounds like somebody feels responsible for what happened and I would be separating the two of the young men and I would be working very hard to get the truth out of them.

CASAREZ: In the law, we call that consciousness of guilt. To Jack Hanna, world renowned animal expert, behavioral aspect, he has his own show, "Jack Hanna`s Into the Wild." We have appreciated so much you being on the past few days because your expert analysis is invaluable. We have learned today that it appears as though the very first victim was of the two brothers outside of that lion`s den. And the deceased victim Mr. Sousa started yelling and screaming to try to get the tiger away from that brother and that`s when the tiger turned and attacked Carlos Sousa, killing him.

What I want to ask you, as you know, there are reports that possibly there was taunting of that tiger. As the tiger would be jumping over the fence, would it be animal instinct to go for the person first that was taunting him or would he go for whoever was closest as he jumped over that wall?

JACK HANNA, ANIMAL EXPERT: Well I`ll answer that question but first off, I have been doing this since you started. If you go back to look at the tapes, you`ll see what I said the very first time you interviewed me. Somebody was doing something.

I feel sorry for two people here, that`s the parents and the San Francisco Zoo. Now if you cross a fence and someone comes into your yard and goes in your house, what do you do? You do something, don`t you? You would call the police or you would go after them probably is what you would do.

That fence that keeps people back from that tiger, that moat`s been there for years. So what all of the sudden would cause this tiger to do something like this, to get out of the moat, which maybe now it could. Let`s say OK, the thing has been lowered.

But when you come across that fence, that tiger is saying why are they in my territory right now? And let`s say they were taunting the tiger which maybe I`ll be wrong, and I`ll have to say an apology on your show nationally if I have to.

Something went on here with those young men and that tiger. And at that point, that tiger just maybe exploded depending on how much they were taunting him and did something. You`ve got to remember something. That thing has been here for years. As I said before, somebody needs to find from an investigator, did those boys love animals enough to go there at 5:00 at night on Christmas Day to see them? If it was me as a young boy, yes I would have. But did they do that?

Also at 5 p.m., what does this tiger usually do? Does he usually eat? Are they putting him in his den? What are the keepers doing at that time of year?

Remember something. And I realize it`s news, but 146 million people went to zoos last year. I have to repeat this again, I`m sorry. And this is the first death in 40 something, maybe in 50, 60, 70 years, we don`t know even know. The first death ever in a zoo that had billions of people going to the zoo. So the safest thing to do is still to go to the zoo. Everybody is getting all riled up here and going around saying zoos have to raise their walls and we have to do this and that.

Before we start jumping the gun here, in a NASCAR race if you go across the fence at NASCAR race and a car comes by and hits you, I mean how high do we have to raise these fences? Fifty, 60 feet? I mean, there`s a certain point here folks where you have to stop and say - what caused this whole thing to happen? And I think that`s where - I`m not an attorney. I`m sure they could sue the zoo and sue everybody. But there comes a point and time in life where if you do something, you pay the consequences. And that`s all I want to find out for those parents and those boys should fess up here real quick as far as I`m concerned.

CASAREZ: All right, Jack Hanna, looking at the individuals at this point involved.

Let`s go to the attorneys because this is a legal case. This has been designated a crime scene, this is at this point a criminal investigation. First to Mark Eiglarsh, a former prosecutor out of Miami, Florida. To Alex Sanchez, defense attorney out of New York.

First, Mark to you. These young men if they are not cooperating with authorities, as police and the "San Francisco Chronicle" are reporting tonight, that doesn`t look good for credibility of a witness. They were the eyewitnesses for the attack of the deceased victim.

MARK EIGLARSH, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, but let me just in their defense point out some other reasons other than consciousness of guilt. First of all, it`s possible that they`ve spoken to attorneys who say don`t talk to anyone. That`s the first thing that I would tell them to do because at a minimum, there is going to be a personal injury suit for sure. Secondly these are guys who have a history. They have pending criminal matters. Both have been arrested independently and collectively for resisting an officer without violence. So they have a natural distrust of law enforcement. I don`t think that we can immediately draw the inference that that meant that they did anything inappropriate.

CASAREZ: All right, let`s look at that. Alex Sanchez, I want to hear from you. But first, let`s talk about what our people here at the show found out. The two surviving victims currently have been charged in criminal courts in northern California with some charges that stem from an October 2007, just several months ago incident. First of all, both brothers and the "Associated Press" has named them, 19-year-old Paul Dhaliwal and 23-year-old Kulbir Dhaliwal. They both have been charged with disorderly conduct in public under intoxication and willfully obstructing or resisting a public officer. In addition to that, the older -- the younger brother has been charged with possession of alcoholic beverages in public under 21.

Alex Sanchez, if you were representing the zoo, would you hope that the hospital did toxicological testing when those young boys arrived?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Because toxicological tests would reveal whether or not there`s drugs in their system or whether or not there`s alcohol in their system. And it seems to me that these young fellows have a history of getting in trouble. They`re anti-social personalities. I mean, why are they fighting with police officers? It seems that if they were at that zoo at that time and something very tragic occurred as what happened in this case, why wouldn`t they come forward and tell us exactly what happened so that the public could possibly protect themselves? Instead they are clamming up, they don`t want to speak. The former prosecutor on this show should be very interested in wanting to hear what they have to say.

CASAREZ: Doesn`t quite make sense.

EIGLARSH: Alex, wait a second, I disagree with Alex for a second. Yeah, I want to hear what they have to say, but I recognize their right to not to have to speak to anyone if they don`t want to. And I am tired including Jack Hanna of blaming the victims here because when a tiger jumps over a fence, even if these boys did bang on the fence because they somehow want to see the tiger wear a Nazi hat, ride around on a bicycle like they`ve been grown up to see or they want to see him jump through hoops and the tiger is just sitting around, even if they did bang on the fence, that somehow does not absolve the zoo from liability when a tiger jumps over a fence that`s not the required 16 feet in height.

HANNA: Even if these guys crossed the fence and went to the moat and maybe dangled something over? You`re telling me that that`s not wrong? Give me a break, that`s what`s wrong with you guys.

EIGLARSH: Well where are we getting those facts? There is no evidence whatsoever, excuse me, that these guys went over the fence at all. There`s no evidence of that. In fact, the evidence seems to suggest that they never went over the fence.

CASAREZ: There is a shoe print though and the police are looking at that shoe print forensically with the shoes of the three victims. Let`s go to Kathy, a caller from Florida. Good evening, Kathy.

CALLER: Yes hi, good evening, Jean.

CASAREZ: Hi.

CALLER: I have to agree with everything that Jack Hanna has said all along. My question is though, is there any kind of security at these zoos walking around protecting the people and the animals and where was security at the zoo that evening?

CASAREZ: All right, great question. Jack Hanna, I`ve got to go back to you. Here`s what we have learned. There were zoo personnel there that who were trained in how to deal if an animal left it`s habitat. They were armed with firearms. They were armed with tranquilizers. But the fact is the police have said they were dispatched shortly after 5:00, got there at 5:08 and it was the police that ultimately, literally people believe saved the lives of many other at that zoo. Why didn`t zoo personnel step in?

HANNA: The police did the right thing. The point is that you can`t in a zoo, our zoo is 600 acres, you can`t have a policeman at every single habitat at the zoo.

And to go back to what that first attorney said, we have a pretty good record out of several billions of people over the last 50 something years going to zoos and never being harmed. That`s a pretty good record.

I`m not an attorney. I can see where he`s coming from, but the other attorney said it very well. Not just with the track record, again I`ll go back to what I`m saying. Why on Christmas Day at 5:00 were these three young men in the zoo? If somebody good just do a little research on that and let me know. Were they were all animal lovers and they weren`t drinking, they were having fun and they were just looking at a zoo animal and the zoo animal got out, then the attorney that`s kind of arguing with me, I would agree 100 percent with him. But right now, there`s something fishy here and somebody ought to find out for those parents sake and for everyone else`s sake.

CASAREZ: Well you know, we do want to just say objectively saying the great researchers here at the NANCY GRACE show found that alcohol is served at the zoo. Beer is served and wine is served. We`re not making any conclusions there, just saying it is served. Let`s go to Wanda in North Carolina. Good evening, Wanda.

CALLER: Good evening, my question is, do we know yet whether any of the guys were under the influence of alcohol or any type of narcotics?

CASAREZ: OK, good question. Pat Brown, if you were an investigator on this, would you immediately make sure that a toxicological test was done not only of the living victims, but even the deceased victims.

BROWN: Well, I would want to know if they had been drinking, because that would obviously add a little bit fire to some maybe poor behavior. But it doesn`t necessarily mean anything because they could be behaving poorly without the drinking.

I`d be looking mostly at the blood patterns. Whose blood is where, what comes first. I don`t know if you remember the joke about the bear, where the guy says you can get away from a bear and the guy says, how do you that? He says, you run. And he says, how can you run away from a bear? And he says, I don`t have to run away from the bear, I just have to outrun you.

Now what I`m wondering is, did these two men just simply outrun Sousa? Is that what happened? That the tiger attacked one of the brothers and the brother got his leg away and they just outran Sousa and he went down? I don`t know if I believe the story that Sousa yelled and that`s why the tiger turned on him. The just may have outran him. That`s what we know exactly what the truth is, who did what and who is maybe responsible for the tiger making that first charge.

CASAREZ: And that may be very difficult to find out without the truth, without surveillance cameras and with one deceased witness.

I want to go out to Dr. Marc Siegel, medical doctor, internal medicine, former emergency room physician. I called the medical examiner`s office in San Francisco today and they told me that the body is still there. They said that some testing was done today. They would not confirm if an autopsy had been performed. But they told me the cause of death and the manner of death are still pending and they are not going to know for quite a while. What does this tell you?

MARC SIEGEL, MEDICAL DOCTOR: Well you know Jean, I think they could actually -- they want to preserve the crime scene and see, as been said, where the blood is. But the tiger traditionally will go for the throat and I think given that there`s major arteries in the area, the carotid artery, the jugular venous vein there, it`s so easy for this victim to have bled to death or to have the throat crushed that I`m betting that that`s the likely cause of death. But they have to preserve the crime scene, which is probably why the body is still there.

CASAREZ: All right, it is very interesting to know that that body is still at the medical examiner`s office.

Tonight`s "Case Alert." A shocking discovery of violence against a Bengal tiger found dead with at least five bullet wounds, including one to his heart. Sanitation found the body, ironically on Christmas day, wrapped in a bloody sheet in the Dallas, Texas area. This female tiger was about 180 pounds, one-to-two years old. It was declared and had a collar and wire cable that may have served as a leash. It is illegal for individuals to keep exotic animals within the Dallas city limits.

And more on the San Francisco Zoo tiger attack when we come back, but first check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins. And coming soon, video of the twins will debut on the baby blog. That`s at CNN.com/NancyGrace. Remember to mark your calendars because Nancy is back on January 7, 8:00 sharp Eastern time. Be sure to join us, right here on Headline News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning America, I`m Captain Marty Stuckelbeen (ph) stationed here in Kabul, Afghanistan. I would like to send a merry Christmas to my family back in Elizabethtown, Kentucky. My wife Ellen, my daughter Colleen, my son Trace, I miss you all and I love you and I`ll be home soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New questions this morning in the wake of that deadly tiger attack on Christmas Day. It`s looking more and more like the tiger who killed one person and seriously injured two others at the San Francisco Zoo jumped the fence around its pen. Now the zoo`s director has admitted the wall around the pen is just 12.5 feet tall. Now that`s below the recommended height of 16 feet. A 17-year-old boy died. Two others were mauled. The tiger was shot and killed by police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And I`m Jean Casarez of Court TV in for Nancy Grace tonight. Let`s talk about these victims, the survivors of this attack. Out to Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. They were viciously attacked by what is now being termed a 350-pound tiger. I can`t even imagine being a part of literally that attack. When they say that they are not cooperating with law enforcement, could they be so traumatized they just can`t?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s not the usual the reaction to violent trauma like this, Jean. Usually people become either become numb and just don`t feel anything, kind of robotic or go through the motions or they`re trembling pieces of jelly just terrified out of their mind.

It`s unusual for a trauma victim to become this aggressive. I quote Nancy. If you don`t know a horse, look at its track record. These guys do have a history of alleged anti-social behavior, risk taking provocation, aggression. So it`s very possible that they played some part in this attack.

CASAREZ: And they have pleaded not guilty though to willfully obstructing and resisting a police officer, that`s from October of `07, so just a couple of months ago.

Out to Jack Hanna, I still want to understand this initial crime scene right outside of the habitat where all three victims were originally standing. The tiger somehow gets out, he initially attacks one of the brothers. And then goes on to Carlos Sousa, who ultimately died. Is a tiger behaviorally going to attack someone who has taunted him or just go for anybody?

HANNA: He would probably go for anybody. In other words the tiger got out, got somebody. The other young men they were probably screaming, the tiger was on top of the other. Sousa may have said something, tried to grab the tiger off and then the tiger saw that something was on top of him and his natural reaction is to go for him and death was probably instantaneous. As I said before with these tigers in the wild, which we filmed in the film, when they take a 2,000 water buffalo down, it happens in 30 seconds. So it`s like a bolt of lightning going off.

CASAREZ: Another fast question, yes or no. There was a blood trail 300 yards because one brother was injured. Did that tiger continue because of that blood trail of the victims.

HANNA: Either that or follow the victims. They were running, they were definitely followed, but they were running, yes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this tiger, if she grabbed on to something, it could have been a ledge. She had to have jumped. How she was able to jump that high is amazing to me. But it`s an exotic animal.

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CASAREZ: To Jack Hanna, world renowned expert on wild animals, wild animal behaviors. Jack, the "San Francisco Chronicle" is reporting that the tiger`s hind claws showed stress and wear. If a tiger climbed up a 12.5-foot wall, would the hind claws have that stress and wear?

HANNA: Obviously they would have to have that, the tiger stands up probably, that animal could be anywhere from 9-to-12 feet tall. I`ve never got up and measured one, but they`re big when they get up there. And of course if something was being taunted, something was hanging over there, whether it be a leg or something, let`s say that foot does get on - see I don`t know if it`s gummite or just smooth concrete - but if it got into that, got a claw into that stuff and just made one push, that could probably bring it up.

But, again, being there for that many years and nothing ever happening, it had to be something drastic to make the animal, because this is not a wild animal. If this was a wild animal looking for food, then I would say, yeah, he just pulled him out of there to get the food. But this animal, they have a great habitat, they`re there. They`re relaxing, they`re with their mates, all of a sudden something disturbs them and all heck breaks loose.

CASAREZ: Thank you Jack, so much.

HANNA: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: February 24th, a 140-pound jaguar mauls a zoo keeper to death at the Denver Zoo. Zoo officials say the keeper broke zoo rules by opening the jaguar`s cage door. The cat was shot and killed when it approached emergency workers.

March 18th, 2004, a 340-pound gorilla escapes its pen at the Dallas Zoo and goes on a 40-minute rampage before being shot dead by police. The gorilla picked up a toddler with its teeth and injured three other people.

October 3rd, 2003, an attack that grabbed headlines worldwide. A tiger severely mauls Roy Horn during Sigried and Roy`s show in Las Vegas. Horn was bitten in the neck and dragged offstage, badly injured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASARES: Welcome back. I`m Jean Casares of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace tonight. I want to go back out to the attorneys, Mark Eiglarsh, former prosecutor out of the Miami jurisdiction, and Alex Sanchez, defense attorney from New York City.

First of all to Mark, if you are representing the zoo and this lands into court, you are going to want to bring in some of these prior bad acts, as we call them, of these surviving victims. That they allegedly persecuted and willfully obstructed and resisted public officials, just like they did as they were transported to the hospital. Too prejudicial?

EIGLARSH: No, I would want to get it in if I do represent the zoo. However I would turn to my client and say let`s not push this to far, because no matter if they`re Charles Manson or Ted Bundy, that 350-pound tiger went over the fence. They didn`t pull him over the fence. That tiger went over the fence. And if they have got a record dating back to the disco crisis, that doesn`t increase the chances of the tiger going over the fence.

The tiger went over the fence. It`s not their fault.

CASARES: However, Alex Sanchez, there is something in civil law called contributory negligence. They have a shoe print right now on the railing. They are comparing to it the victims` shoes. If it is found ultimately that there was taunting, that someone was standing on the rail, that that caused the tiger to come up and somehow get out, that`s going to be effective for the zoo, isn`t it.

SANCHEZ: Absolutely, they keep talking about they`re investigating this as a crime scene. The only crime they should be investigating is whether or not these kids committed trespass, whether or not they climbed over a fence. You know, the word taunting, what does taunting mean? It could be anything from throwing rocks, bottles. They could be throwing mud at the animal, dangling over the edge.

Then you`re provoking an animal. The animal is nice and peaceful. All of a sudden, you decide to go there, break every rule in the book, and go there and taunt the animal, and you wonder why the animal would jump over the fence and attack you? Is that so surprising?

EIGLARSH: With all due respect, where are you getting these facts? Let`s assume for a second -- there`s no evidence that they did any of that. But let`s assume for a second that they yelled at the tiger, they hit the fence -- let`s just assume that for a second. First of all, that is reasonably foreseeable. People go to the zoo, and they want to see animals do stuff. My little kids will bang on the fence. Somehow, is the tiger justified then in jumping over and taking a bite out of his throat? Come on now?

SANCHEZ: You know something, it`s reasonable to assume people are going to engage in some minor behavior when it comes to taunting animals. But if you`re climbing over certain restricted areas of the fence, and you`re taunting an animal in a way that should not be taunted, like throwing branches at it or rocks or in some other manner --

(CROSS TALK)

CASARES: We do want to say that the police have said -- the police have said they found no rocks. They found no brush inside the habitat at all. But I want to ask both of you -- let me focus on Alex for a second. You don`t think at all there would be any reckless behavior that would ultimately be found, that if there was taunting that the boy knew or should have known that death or serious bodily injury could come from taunting a tiger?

SANCHEZ: You`re using the term boy, Jean. This boy was 23 years old. The other one was 19 years old.

CASARES: And one was 17.

SANCHEZ: Yes, but the one that`s 19 and 23, you`re old enough to vote. You`re old enough to go to war. You`re old enough to get married. You`re old enough to possibly obtain a handgun. You`re old enough to engage in a lot of adult behaviors. So now, if you decide that you`re going to taunt an animal, and that animal escapes it`s cage, you may bear some responsibility.

EIGLARSH: You`re old enough to know that a 350-pound tiger is going to scale a tall fence and maul three innocent people? Are you kidding me?

SANCHEZ: No, you`re old enough to know that when you provoke a wild animal in a zoo, there`s going to be a reaction. And there was a reaction here. And they, unfortunately, should bear some responsibility for what happened here.

CASARES: Let`s go out to Jennifer in Canada. Jennifer, good evening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you? First of all, I think we all need to listen to the expert, who is Jack Hannah. I think that obviously this is not normal. This is not something that has happened. The fence has been that way for a while. So my question is, are they able to have tranquilizers at the zoo, or can they somehow have the staff do that?

CASARES: That has been a big question. And we did learn that there were supervisors at the zoo security that had the ability to tranquilize and even were armed with fire arms, but they didn`t make a move. It`s the police that did. Out to Dan Stockdale; in some way was the zoo negligent, that in that 300 yard dash, we could say, that the tiger made, that someone, some supervisor or superintendent, should have done something to tranquilize that tiger to stop it from going to the cafe area?

STOCKDALE: We don`t know exactly how many people were on staff that had tranquilizer guns. There`s a lot -- Like I said last night, there`s a lot of unanswered questions in this whole scenario. The thing is -- and I`ve got to go back to the whole thing with taunting. The tiger is a wild animal. It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you taunt a tiger, you`re likely going to get a reaction and you`re not going to like that reaction.

CASARES: We do want to remind everybody, though, that the police have said that there is no evidence of taunting. There is no evidence at this point, they are saying, of taunting, merely that they have a shoe print. All right, Dan Stockdale, animal behavioralist, go on.

STOCKDALE: The other thing I want to say here is, although they say they don`t have any physical evidence, the tiger`s behavior alone speaks volumes about what went on. It`s like Jack said earlier, the tiger has been living in that exhibit for many, many years, and has never been able to leap out of that enclosure. There`s not been an issue along those lines.

But the tiger`s behavior alone in this instance, you know, certainly, although it may not be evidence, it certainly is a strong indication that something was going on that was not usual for that animal.

CASARES: Let`s talk about some of the evidence that is being reported that was at the scene. To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, reports are saying that there was blood spatter on one of the signs that was right behind the railing. I know through my experience in the court system that blood spatter can be examined, forensically tested, and you can learn how a crime happened. Do you think they`ll look at that blood spatter to determine the height or where the initial victim was?

BROWN: Absolutely, I think that`s very important. Which direction did the blood spatter come from, who did it come, and what part of the body did it come from? Here`s the bottom line for me, I look at that fence as a big line. If the boys were outside the fence yelling -- just yelling at the beast, well, then I would say, if that beast jumped over the wall, then that`s the responsibility of the zoo.

However, if they went over the fence and they added some element on the other side which brought the tiger over, for example a limb that the tiger could hang onto, and helped bring the tiger over, and that is proven through the blood spatter pattern and other evidence, then I would say, the zoo is not at fault then, because something was added that would not have been there had the boys not gone over the fence. So I think that`s the big issue.

CASARES: Isn`t it just amazing that if you have a problem with witnesses, that forensically you can have blood, you can have shoe prints that can help tell the story of what happened. Let`s go out to Lanora in West Virginia. Good evening, Lanora.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have wondered about this through this whole situation; the zoo had a moat; why wasn`t there water in there that would have collected algae that would have made it slippery, made it difficult for the tiger to get up the wall? And if they were supposed to have water in it, is the zoo going to be fined for that?

CASARES: Lanora, great question, I have wondered that myself. The moat is basically the ditch that went around the habitat. To Dan Stockdale, conservationist, exotic animal trainer. Are moats usually dry, as the zoo has said this one always has been.

STOCKDALE: It`s my understanding that this one has always been dry. To be honest with you, though, tigers love water. As a matter of fact, tigers have been known to swim up to one mile across water. So the moat, whether it`s filled with water or not filled with water, is really not much consequence in this case.

CASARES: All right, well that is very interesting. We will continue all of the legal issues, all of the questions when we return. More on the San Francisco Zoo attack.

But, first, check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins. And coming soon, video of the twins will debut on the Baby Blog. That`s at CNN.com/NancyGrace.

Remember to mark your calendars -- you know the date -- it`s January 7th, 8:00 sharp Eastern time, 5:00 Pacific time. Be sure to join us right here on Headline News. rMD+IN_rMDNM_

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(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two officials making a startling admission, it turns out that the wall that protects the public from the tigers is much shorter than we originally thought. The wall is only 12.5 feet, and industry standards call for it to be about 16 feet. What that means is that it would be much easier for the tiger to scale the wall and break free from the enclosure.

As for why the wall was only 12.5 feet, the AZA, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, came in here and determined that there were absolutely no problems with that wall, so the zoo never made it any bigger.

In terms of where we are right now, of course, police are continuing to treat this as a crime, and investigating what if any role the three victims played in the attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASARES: And welcome back, I`m Jean Casares of Court TV, in for Nancy Grace. I would like to go out so Sebastian Kunz, news anchor for radio station KNEW, right there in San Francisco. Sebastion, the Sousa family obviously is mourning. I think they are in shock to have such a tragedy unexpectedly happen. But Mr. Sousa has been talking a bit and did say that he made a cell phone call personally to one of the two surviving victims earlier in the day. Can you tell us about that?

KUNZ: We do understand that that`s the case. And from what we are hearing, it sounds like he was trying to find out the location of his son. In fact, we know that Sousa`s mother, who`s not married to the father anymore, was expecting her son to come home for Christmas dinner and never showed up. The father made a call to one of the Dhaliwal (ph) boys, who did have a cell phone, and we understand that which ever brother was called -- we`re not clear on which -- basically was not truthful with the father and said he didn`t know where he was.

CASARES: And there is going to be a vigil for Carlos Sousa, Jr.?

KUNZ: Indeed. The MySpace page for Carlos Sousa has been turned into something of a memorial on the Internet, and it was my colleague Valerie back at the news room who located the MySpace bulletin that indicates tomorrow night at 7:30, down in San Jose, where the boy is from, there`s going to be a vigil with family and friends, trying to mourn and get past this tragedy. All the while, they are working on setting up funeral arrangements and requesting help from the public there, as well.

CASARES: What did Carlos Sousa have on his MySpace page? It was a very positive statement, I remember.

KUNZ: Yes, we understand that it`s describing him as a regular kid. He was into rap music. He was hoping to become a musician one day. And, you know, it`s -- obviously, the family is just entirely devastated by this and are waiting for answers from the two boys, who remain in the hospital.

CASARES: And I think he also said that he had so much life to live and his life was going to get so much better. Such a wonderful statement from a 17-year-old.

Let`s go back out to the attorneys, Mark Eiglarsh out of Miami and then also Alex Sanchez. Mark, the zoo director has been talking a lot in the last few days. First, he said the height of the wall was 18 to 20 feet. They then measured it, found out it was 16.5 (sic). He said that the zoo was deficient in many, many ways. If you`re representing the zoo, are you getting nervous right now, because there`s a lot of statements he`s making.

EIGLARSH: Absolutely. When you decide not to have it at the required or recommended height of 16 feet, you say, we`re OK with that. It`s going to be safe; there`s no problem. But the bottom line is, that tiger went over the fence. There`s no signs up there that say, don`t yell at the tiger, don`t taunt the tiger, don`t do or say things that will cause the tiger to get agitated. That is reasonably foreseeable. That`s going to happen. And whether these guys did or said anything, the bottom line is -- I said it before, I`ll say it again -- the tiger went over that fence. And you bear responsibility.

CASARES: Alex, I have got the give you your say.

SANCHEZ: I think the director of the zoo deserves a lot of credit. I wish more government officials would be as open as he is. He`s coming forward. He doesn`t appear to be trying to cover his tracks. He`s indicating, yes, there were some errors. There were some mistakes. Things could have been done differently. We`re going to try to make some amends in the future. I think he deserves some credit for the way he`s handling the matter right now.

I`ll tell you one thing, he deserves a lot more credit than these two brothers, who are clamming up, not speaking to the police, and lying to supposedly their friend`s father. I think that tells you something about these two guys.

CASARES: All right, Sierra in Indiana. Good evening Sierra. What is your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was aware that the tiger is a repeat offender, and obviously wasn`t scared of humans; so why was this tiger still out on display? Why wasn`t there more heavy security on the tiger?

CASARES: That`s a very good question, Sierra. A repeat offender, boy, you know those legal terms. What she`s referring to is that a year ago, almost to the day, this tiger, Tatiana, attacked her feeder and almost took off the entire arm of the feeder. The female feeder at the zoo has had multiple surgeries. She was able to keep her arm.

But back to Dan Stockdale, wild animal expert, should the zoo have taken this tiger and put it in an area that would be safer even for the public, since it was an attacker already of a human?

STOCKDALE: No. The attack that occurred a year ago was because the zoo did not have -- from what I understand from the reports, the zoo did not have proper feeding facilities and the keeper had not been trained adequately for feeding the tiger.

Let me remind you guys, these are stunning, magnificent animals that can be handled and exhibited very, very safely, and have been handled and exhibited safely for years. And the other thing we need to remember too is these animals are on the very verge of extinction. At best, we have 3,000 wild tigers left in the entire world, and zoos and also responsible private owners are doing an extraordinary job maintaining the gene pool of these animals, so that our children and grandchildren can actually see them in the future, when they are completely extinct in the wild.

CASARES: Very quickly, in your estimation, are officials performing an autopsy on this tiger, an animal autopsy, I believe necropsy or something, it`s called?

STOCKDALE: Yes, I`m sure they are.

CASARES: Are they looking for anything, such as rabies, or anything that the tiger could have?

STOCKDALE: They probably are, but they`re probably also looking at the tiger`s feeding, and how often it had been since it had been fed and that type of thing, just to ensure that that was not a contributing factor.

CASARES: Very interesting. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASARES: What a week in the news this week. Take a look at some of the stories.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you be telling Drew Peterson right now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would tell him, obviously, to keep his mouth shut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get yourself back in the house and shut your mouth. You`ve got a wire his jaw shut, take him out Dodge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would start with duct tape wrapped liberally around his mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let your lawyer do the talking. Let your lawyer have the comments to make to the media.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Continue to talk and a jury will never let you walk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t talk to anyone, don`t talk to the media.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s killed himself in the public eye.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every one of these statements is going to be lined up against this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s better off keeping his mouth shut.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The less he speaks, the better off he will be, ulitmately, whether he is charged or not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the San Francisco Zoo, Christmas Day, a Siberian Tiger managed to get loose and attack three visitors, killing one man. It happened at the Terrace Cafe, an eatery inside the zoo. Police arrived to find one man mauled and the tiger, Tatiana, had a second man cornered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to know what three 17, 19 and 23- year-old youn men are doing in a zoo near a tiger cage at 5:00 Christmas Eve Day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m still confused how the one gentleman that passed away was in front of the enclosure, then, all of a sudden, 100 yards away, the two other guys were. How would that tiger know to go after those two guys in a certain area 100 yards away? The whole thing is very, very confusing and I can see why the police might be calling it a crime scene.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And tonight, let`s stop to remember Thomas Martin, 27 years old of Ward, Arkansas, killed in Iraq during combat operations. Martin was a Cavalry scout officer, who graduated from the U.S. Military Academy in 2005. As a youth, Martin was active in church, his high school band, theater, even the Boy Scouts. He`s survived by his parents, his grandmother, two sisters, and his fiance, who is serving as a MedeVac pilot in Iraq.

Thomas Martin, American hero.

I want to thank all of our guests tonight. We`ll see you Monday night and this weekend. Be sure to catch the best of Nancy Grace at 8:00 Eastern time sharp. Good night, everyone.

END