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Reverse Judgment; From Prison to Freedom; Amen to Sen. Clinton; Luck of the Draw; Sen. McCain Speaks Out
Aired January 20, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: An African-American church in Harlem says, "Amen" to Senator Hillary Clinton. The pastor says race won't be the basis for his endorsement.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I respect Senator Obama. I applaud him and I love him as my brother. But a vote for Hillary is not a vote against Barack Obama.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
HARRIS: The battle for Harlem's support straight ahead.
Plus fresh off his South Carolina win, Senator John McCain sits down with our Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We expected this to be a very hotly contested race and for the last 28 years, the candidate that has won South Carolina has been the nominee of the party.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
HARRIS: More of this interview plus how McCain really feels about his opponent, Rudy Giuliani.
And home auctioned for as little as $6,000? Sounds too good to be true - we will tell you how you can cash in.
And later - grab your glasses - U2 in 3d.
You're in the CNN Newsroom.
Nine years gone forever spent behind bars for a murder Tim Masters apparently did not commit.
Hello everyone. I'm Tony Harris and we begin tonight in Fort Collins, Colorado. On Tuesday, look for this 36-year-old man to be out of prison.
In the spring of 1999, Masters was convicted of stabbing and sexually mutilating Peggy Hettrick (ph). Now a special prosecutor tells us DNA evidence points to Hettrick's former boyfriend and Masters is speaking out from behind bars. (BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TIM MASTERS: Feelings of anger, resentment over all the time I've lost, my life's been -- ten years of my life's spent here. I mean, yeah, I expect that some big egos involved, once they made up their mind, nothing could convince them they were wrong.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
HARRIS: Once they made up their minds, nothing could convince them they were wrong. How could that happen?
CNN investigative reporter, Drew Griffin asked some key players in the investigation that very question.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
LINDA WHEELER-HOLLOWAY, POLICE INVESTIGATOR: I told my husband never make me choose between you or --
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (voice-over): She raises draft horses on her Colorado ranch. But her real job as a cop and investigator for more than 30 years has been putting hardened criminals behind bars which is why what she about to say is so surprising.
HOLLOWAY: The day he got convicted, I was just almost sick to my stomach.
GRIFFIN: Linda Holloway says one man she helped put in prison for murder back in 1999 is innocent. And she has known that ever single day for the eight years Tim Masters has been locked up.
Is the murderer still on the loose?
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Why is this tough cop feeling such anguish? To understand, we need to go back two decades to February 11, 1987, the day a 37- year-old woman named Peggy Hettrick was found dead and sexually mutilated in an open field in sleepy, safe, Fort Collins, Colorado; her bare legs pointing directly at a trailer where a 15-year-old boy named Tim Masters lived with his dad.
(on camera) It was field just like this and Masters would have to cross it every morning to catch a school bus to go to school. But on that morning, he saw something. Something he couldn't believe; the body of a half naked woman lying there. He would later explain he thought it was a mannequin.
He kept walk willing, got on the bus, went to school and said nothing. That more than anything else would make Tim Masters suspect number one in a murder investigation that would follow him for the next 12 years.
HOLLOWAY: Because Tim Masters found the body and didn't report it, people couldn't get over that there has to be something wrong with that.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Based on that alone, Tim Masters was pulled out of school, brought into this interview room in the Fort Collins Police Department and without an attorney was interrogated over and over for hours.
Five different officers peppered him with questions. Masters was even strapped to a lie detector, then lied to when police said he failed.
For seven hour, the 15-year-old stuck to the same story. He saw the body, didn't report it because he thought it was fake. And though the victim had been savagely stabbed and mutilated, there was not a trace of her blood on him, not any clothing, not in the sinks of his trailer, not even on his hunting knife collection.
(on camera) He never broke. No physical evidence, right?
HOLLOWAY: None.
GRIFFIN (voice over): But Holloway says she and the rest of the Fort Collins police never looked for another suspect.
HOLLOWAY: I got caught up in that, to, where it's like he's good enough. Just keep working on this Tim Masters lead until you have enough pieces of the puzzle in order to take him down.
GRIFFIN: Tim Masters grew up and joined the navy. And for 12 years, Peggy Hettrick's murder remained unsolved until 1999 when the same old suspect, Tim Masters, now a grown man of 27, was brought back into court, tried and convicted and sentenced to life.
What was the new evidence that finally caught him? No new evidence at all just Tim Masters's old sketches. And Master's attorney says police and prosecutors used these old sketches to paint their own picture of a killer.
(on camera) I don't understand how he ever got convicted in the first place.
ERIK FISCHER, MASTER'S ATTORNEY: When they allow them to paint somebody as a dangerous sexual pervert, it's easier to convict somebody.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
HARRIS: Those prosecutors are now judges which makes these new allegations all the more troubling. Did they hide evidence that Tim Masters was innocent? And does new DNA testing reveal the real killer?
Questions we've asked and people have answered. And none of it is what you might expect.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Back now to our top story. A convicted murderer soon to be set free on Tuesday. A judge is expected to toss out Tim Masters' murder conviction. It took police 12 years to make a case against him at all. Masters had gone off to serve in the U.S. Navy to start a new life. But police never forgot about him.
Here's CNN's Drew Griffin with part two of his investigative report.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
GRIFFIN (voice-over): When she heard that after 12 years Tim Masters had finally been charged with murder, the former lead investigator, Linda Holloway, was thrilled until she saw the new evidence that broke the case.
HOLLOWAY: I kept thinking there's no way he's going to get convicted. They don't have any evidence against him.
GRIFFIN (on camera): But what prosecutor did have were these - Tim Masters' own drawing, one of them a body bleeding, being dragged across a field. Another showing what could be a stabbing, a wound, a diagram of the field, the spot where the body was placed.
A forensic psychologist hired by prosecutors told the jury these all add up. Whoever drew them was the killer and worse, could kill again. That psychologist, Dr. Reed Malloy (ph) wouldn't talk to CNN for this report and, by the way, never interviewed Tim Masters.
And remember this, 12 years had passed. Tim Masters was no longer 15 years old and skinny. He was a grown man.
FISCHER: The basic gist of what we understood from the jurors was, again, what I said before. They were afraid to let him go.
GRIFFIN: But the testimony on the drawings wasn't the only damaging testimony. Linda Holloway was also called to the stand. She was asked by Eric Fischer point blank, "You don't believe Tim Masters is guilty, do you?"
Holloway froze, afraid her answer would throw away years of detective work. She said nothing. Masters was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life.
GRIFFIN: So doesn't it bother you that when you were there and had the chance to defend an innocent man, you didn't?
HOLLOWAY: By answering that one question, yes.
GRIFFIN: Now Holloway is back on the case, this time on the side of the defense.
The defense says new DNA testing they conducted proves Masters never even touched Peggy Hettrick, let alone stab her to death and drag her into a field.
And keeping them honest, we found a special state prosecutor signed to review the case says the original prosecutors and police failed to disclose four significant pieces of evidence that pointed away from Tim Masters, including that surveillance of Masters produced nothing suspicious, that an FBI profiler hired by police told them Masters' sketches proved nothing, and a plastic surgeon hired by police who said it would be difficult for a 15-year-old boy to make such skill full incisions to the woman's body.
(on camera) Significant pieces of evidence.
DON QUICK, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. How significant is something that still needs to be determined.
GRIFFIN: You're a prosecutor, right? Would it be significant in case you were prosecuting?
QUICK: I think that they -- that's why we stipulated to those.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Late Friday night in a stunning development, special prosecutor Don Quick went beyond just stipulating withheld evidence. He announced new evidence; DNA tests pointing to a new suspect, not Masters, as the more likely killer.
QUICK: The results of this comparison was to confirm the presence of DNA consistent with the alternate suspect and inconsistent with Tim Masters. It is our belief as special prosecutors in this case that this new evidence meets the constitutional requirements of rule 35-C that requires a vacation of the original conviction and sentence and entitles Mr. Masters to a new trial.
GRIFFIN: Tim Masters' next court appearance is Tuesday when it is expected he will be freed from prison.
The alternative suspect, Masters' attorney tells CNN, is an old boyfriend of Peggy Hettrick. And Fort Collins police only briefly suspected 21 years ago.
Drew Griffin, CNN, Fort Collins, Colorado.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
HARRIS: Well, you've heard his story. Now you will hear from him. Tim Masters speaks out about what he calls the twilight zone.
You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And back now to the harrowing story of Tim Masters. Just to remind you, he's been in prison for almost a decade, serving a life sentence for a murder conviction. Now a Colorado special prosecutor plans to recommend that Masters be released Tuesday because DNA evidence points to a different suspect in the case.
Yesterday, Tim Masters talked about his ordeal in a prison interview with Paula Woodward of CNN affiliate, KUSA.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE) PAULA WOODWARD, KUSA: Saturday afternoon, a different Tim Masters. He is in the zone between being free and not. Pretty sure he's going to get out on Tuesday, but not quite trusting it. Have you had a chance to make any plans?
MASTERS: No. I haven't made any plans yet.
WOODWARD: Do you know what's going to happen on Tuesday when you walk out the door?
MASTERS: I imagine we'll get together with my family, all of us will all get together, probably have a little party.
WOODWARD: Who will you stay with?
MASTERS: I don't know yet.
WOODWARD: He's a self-described hopeful pessimist.
MASTERS: I've always had hope; just I've been pessimistic at the same time, though. Hope for the best, expect the worst. But what was the other part of the question? Two hours of sleep.
WOODWARD: Imagine, if you can, being in prison for nine and a half years. Nine and a half years. And you've killed no one. How do you survive? How did he survive?
MASTERS: My family is my support system out there. I couldn't have done it if I didn't have such a supportive family out there. They kept me going through all the dark days.
WOODWARD: Think about that time.
MASTERS: I've been locked up for ten years, so the world is bound to have moved on in the last ten years. So I have to re-acclimate myself to the world out there.
WOODWARD: Like cell phones?
MASTERS: Like cell phones, yeah. What's the job market like right now? I was locked up before 9/11. So what's it like to travel now? I don't know. What kind of - how hard is it to get a driver's license in this day and age? How hard is it going to be to make a living? I mean, when I got locked up, gas was $1.10 a gallon. Now it's $3- something a gallon.
WOODWARD: He admits he was teary last night over thoughts of seeing his family and, yes, he has emotional babies from prison.
MASTERS: Just feelings of anger, resentment over all the time I've lost. My life's been -- ten years of my life's spent here. Yeah, I expect that.
WOODWARD: About those who prosecuted him in 1999.
MASTERS: Some big egos involved. Once they made up their mind, nothing could convince them that they were wrong.
WOODWARD: Maria Liu, one of his two attorneys, will say it more strongly.
MARIA LIU, MASTERS' ATTORNEY: He was convicted because he was framed. He was framed.
WOODWARD: Tim masters, the hopeful pessimist, says he knows he'll be free quite frankly, when the following happens.
MASTERS: It will completely sink in -- like I've been saying -- when the door hits me on the butt in the final time on the way out.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
HARRIS: Remember you can see a complete run down of the Tim Masters case and lots of other crime stories on our website. Here's the address, cnn.com/crime.
Well, today Senator Hillary Clinton went up to Harlem, but what does this rally illustrate about her support within the African-American community? More than you might think.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Senators Hillary Clinton and John McCain riding very high tonight with two big wins behind them. But the road to the White House is still long and winding.
Clinton edged out Senator Barack Obama in the Nevada Democratic caucuses yesterday by just 6 percentage points. She scored high with women and Latinos. This is Clinton's second win of the race so far.
And McCain racked up his second win at the South Carolina Republican primary beating out his rivals with 33 percent of the vote.
The Democrats get their turn in South Carolina next Saturday and the nomination is still up for grabs. Right now Senator Hillary Clinton is campaigning in her home state of New York. The primary there is on Super Tuesday; that's February 5th. And both Clinton and Senator Barack Obama are battling for votes in New York City's historic Harlem neighborhood.
CNN's Jim Acosta has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Honorable Hillary Clinton.
JIM ACOSTA: On a roll after her victory in Nevada, Hillary Clinton didn't fly to South Carolina where the next Democrat primary is less than a week away. She campaigned in Harlem to defend her home turf.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This election is about the future and it's particularly about the future of the young people growing up right here in this community. ACOSTA: Harlem is fast becoming a key battle ground in the race to win the New York primary on Super Tuesday. Over the weekend, Barack Obama opened up a campaign office in the historic African-American neighborhood. He has his own version of show time at the Apollo.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I need you standing with me so our children and our grandchildren have the same hopes and opportunities that somebody gave me.
ACOSTA: After Bill Clinton left the White House, he chose Harlem as the site of his post presidential office, but he's not running, she is says State Senator Bill Perkins, an Obama supporter.
ACOSTA: You're not being very neighborly supporting this guy from Illinois.
BILL PERKINS, SENATOR, NEW YORK STATE: The definition of neighborly is not the way you're suggesting. He's my neighbor. We welcome him as a neighbor. But we're talking about something more important than being a neighbor. We're talking about the future of this country.
ACOSTA: But Harlem's legendary congressional leader Charles Rangel is backing Clinton despite Obama's pioneering candidacy.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL, NEW YORK: It's a sense of pride. But in terms of governing the country, I think it's safe to say we really know Hillary Clinton better.
ACOSTA (on camera): These days, campaigning in Harlem isn't so easy for Clinton. She's careful to congratulate Obama on his historic run for the presidency, while at the same time arguing she's a better fit for the job.
Jim Acosta, CNN, Harlem.
HARRIS: And much more politics to talk about tonight, including this generational divide. The Clinton campaign seems to be more appealing to seasoned African-American voters while the Obama campaign is attracting voters who are just starting out, starting to cut their political teeth.
Tonight at 10:00 eastern, we delve into the gap.
Only in Vegas, one precinct there couldn't break a tie in yesterday's Nevada Democratic caucuses, so they relied on a good old fashioned card draw.
Tom Komenda (ph) is a Clinton supporter and he was there. Listen to him describe the process.
TOM KOMENDA: They pulled out a deck of cards and drew. Highest card won the extra delegate.
HARRIS: Okay. So let's break this down. So a supporter of Barack Obama went first and drew what card?
KOMENDA: They ended up drawing the ten of spades.
HARRIS: The ten of spades. And what was the reaction in the room?
KOMENDA: Well, my reaction was oh, shoot.
HARRIS: And tell me -- full disclosure here. Why was that your reaction?
KOMENDA: Well, because I'm a Clinton supporter.
HARRIS: Okay. So now the Clinton supporter pulls a card and the card is?
KOMENDA: The queen of hearts.
HARRIS: The queen of hearts, right and there you go. Now, let me ask you something. Do you get to go now to - do you get to go to Denver?
KOMENDA: No, I don't get to go on Denver. The way it goes right now is the Clinton supporters there asked me to be one of their delegates, which is a city delegate.
From there, I will be nominated as a city delegate; going from there if I'm elected there, I become a county. Then I will go to the state. And if elected at the state, I will then go on to Denver and see you guys in person.
HARRIS: All right. How do you like your chances?
KOMENDA: I love my chances.
HARRIS: You love your chances. Any shenanigans with the cards? Who was shuffling?
KOMENDA: Well, you know what, it started out - they started shuffling the cards and you could actually see the actual playing card. And I was like stop, stop, stop. What casino go you go in to where they're going to show you the playing cards when you're playing blackjack?
HARRIS: Oh, my goodness. Only in Vegas.
KOMENDA: So I went up there and I said, no, if we're going to shuffle, we're going to shuffle the way they do it in the casinos where you can't see the face cards or the playing card at all. So I shuffled. Then an Obama representative shuffled. And then one from the Obama picked the ten of spades and one of the Clinton supporters picked the queen of hearts.
HARRIS: Well, Tom, what a great story; only in Vegas. And good luck. And maybe we'll see you in Denver.
KOMENDA: Sounds great.
HARRIS: Again, that was Clinton supporter Tom Komenda again. Sounds like politics in Vegas.
They gave him a hard time once, but John McCain and the people of South Carolina made up last night.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
MCCAIN: It took us a while, but what's eight years among friends?
(END VIDEOCLIP)
HARRIS: South Carolina has foretold the GOP nomination for more than 20 years. And John McCain hopes the trend holds. He sits down with our Dana Bash for an interview you won't want to miss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: He has won two presidential primaries so far, and now Republican John McCain says he's ready to earn the votes of Florida Republicans.
The Arizona senator sat down with our Dana Bash following his big win yesterday in the South Carolina GOP primary.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Senator, congratulations.
MCCAIN: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: Obviously this is a big win in a very conservative state. But if you look at the exit polls, about three in ten voters describe themselves as Republicans who voted for you, just three in ten.
So what does that tell you about your ability still at this point to get your fellow Republicans to vote for you?
MCCAIN: Well, it says I got more votes than anybody else and it says that I got it from across the spectrum all over the state, a little heavier in the coast. But we expected this to be a very hotly contested race. And for the last 28 years, the candidate that has won South Carolina has been the nominee of the party. So we're taking it all the way to the bank.
BASH: The fact, though, that still only three in ten of the people who voted for you, even here, were Republicans, that a lot of your support seemed to still come from independents.
MCCAIN: The information we have, that we have broad based Republican support. I don't know what your database is, but all over the state of South Carolina we received broad based strong support from conservatives, moderates, liberals all over the state. We're very happy with the result.
BASH: Now, you're moving on to Florida where unlike this state, unlike your last win in New Hampshire, independents aren't going to be part of the electorate. How do you, John McCain, consolidate support among Republicans?
MCCAIN: Well, you, of course, pick up on the momentum that you get from these victories. The second thing is Florida's a very patriotic state; a lot of veterans, a lot of people who care about national security. There's great concern about the economy and the excess spending that's been going on.
I think I have a strong economic proposal that includes tax cuts and restraint of spending. There's a lot of environmental concerns in the state of Florida. I think I have a good record on that. And we'll be campaigning hard.
We've got a very slight lead in the polls now and I'm confident we will do very well there.
BASH: Your friend, Rudy Giuliani, is already there waiting for you. And he has already been really aggressive essentially going after you for not supporting President Bush's tax cuts.
MCCAIN: Well, I appreciate his attention back some months ago when we weren't doing so well, we were the closest friends. So I'm running on my record. I'm a fiscal conservative. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows I was part of the Reagan revolution where we had tax cuts when, frankly, Mayor Giuliani was supporting a Democrat for governor of the state of New York.
So I'm proud of my fiscal record. I'm proud of the efforts to cut spending. I'm proud to have the support of people like Phil Graham, Jack Kemp, and Marty Feldstein (ph), the strongest fiscal conservatives in our party that are all supporting me. That's there for a reason.
BASH: You mentioned that Rudy Giuliani supported a Democrat candidate. Are you suggesting that you're more of a fiscal conservative than he?
MCCAIN: I know that I'm a fiscal conservative and that's why I have the support of Jack Kemp, Phil Graham, Marty Feldstein, a broad group of economic conservatives as well as four former secretaries of state, by the way, which leading the nation and making it secure is -- I still think the number one priority of the American people.
BASH: You still, even though you talk nonstop about the need to cut pork barrel spending, you still seem to have a little bit of a challenge in convincing Republicans that you are a fiscal conservative perhaps because of your vote against the bush tax cuts.
MCCAIN: Well, the people who examine my record, people who see me with Jack Kemp, people who see me with Phil Graham, people who see me with Senator Tom Colburn, and all the strong economic and respected conservatives. That is one of the reasons why we just won this race and why we won in New Hampshire.
DANA BASH, CNN, CORRESPONDENT: Now, on the economy, as soon as the president came out with his stimulus plan, you said that there has to be a cut in spending. Now that you've had a chance to look at it, will you vote for any kind of stimulus plan that doesn't have a cut in spending to go along with it? MCCAIN: We have to have restraint in spending. Everybody knows that. Last time we did one of those things, they loaded it up with pork barrel projects. They loaded it up with billions of dollars of pork barrel projects. Americans won't stand for that and I won't either. But I'm for middle class tax cuts, for cutting the corporate tax rate from 35 to 25, for dispensing investments, to R&D tax credits. Things that making the tax cuts permanent, those things can be done immediately. Immediately and would an immediate stimulus effect. So I have not seen the details of the President's proposal and I've not seen what Congress will do. So I can't tell you what I will do until I have a chance to see it. But I have a proposal of my own that's very strong and is what this American economy needs.
BASH: But in theory, based on what you -
MCCAIN: I have never seen it, so I don't know. I cannot tell you what I can vote for -
BASH: Would you vote for anything that would increase the deficit?
MCCAIN: Pardon me.
BASH: Would you vote for anything that would increase the deficit?
MCCAIN: If there's plan for restrained spending, I would have to look at the proposal. I can't make a judgment. But there has to be restraint of spending. Spending out of control is why we are in the position we are in today. Why the Chinese own so much of American paper? Why the dollar is weak? Why interest rates are as high as they are? Because we let spending get completely out of control. Phil Graham, Jack Kemp and I, we wouldn't put soldiers in the Reagan revolution and we restrained spending and that was one of the keys to the success during the Reagan years.
BASH: When you came here to South Carolina, you seemed to change the tone of your talk about the economy. In Michigan, you talk about the fact that jobs aren't coming back here, you were more optimistic. Did you learn that perhaps there's such a thing as too much straight talk?
MCCAIN: No, actually, I didn't change and I said there was the old jobs not coming back and South Carolina know that they (inaudible) aren't coming back. But they've got a government and a governor and a legislature that is business friendly. Businesses are coming here. South Carolina economy is on the rise. And that's the kind of government that matters. And it's a fiscally responsible government. But I didn't change anything. I doubt if I will.
BASH: Are you the front-runner now?
MCCAIN: I think we're doing very well. I'm optimistic about doing well in Florida. And I'm glad we've had these wins. And, again, 28 years, whoever's won here has been the nominee.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TONY HARRIS, CNN, ANCHOR: So he stopped short of calling himself the front-runner, but Senator McCain is definitely looking for a little momentum out of South Carolina. So far, the republican race has really been wide open. Six different states have held contests and three different candidates have claimed victory so far.
So he triumphed last night. But can Senator McCain keep his momentum? Well, that's one of the questions we will we pose to our political bloggers. There they are Pam, good to see you. Mary Katherine, good to see you. Put the gloves on for now. We'll take them off later in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: OK. The political blogs are exploding with talk on the left and the right after Senator John McCain nabs his second win in the presidential race. How far will the voters take him? And Senator Barack Obama is getting a lot of flack for seemingly complimenting the republican party. Joining me now, Pam Spaulding, author of "The liberal blog." Pam's house blend and conservative blogger Mary Katherine ham from townhall.com. Good to see you both, ladies. And as always, please feel free to sort of leave me out of conversation and go back and forth and talk amongst yourselves here. Hey, Mary Katherine, let me start with you. John McCain after the victory in South Carolina last night, is he the frontrunner?
MARY KATHERINE HAM, TOWNHALL.COM: You mean, we're not talking about the playoffs tonight?
HARRIS: Not yet. Not yet. We'll get there.
HAM: I think McCain and Hillary both are banking on the fact that two wins finally means they're front-runners because one certainly didn't. So, here we go from here. McCain certainly won with military voters in South Carolina. But it does not mean that he's this big consensus juggernaut now by any means. In 2000, his vote total was much larger. It's much smaller this time. And the regular conservatives/evangelical vote was split between Fred and Huck, which is a lot of the reason why he came out on top.
HARRIS: Pam, what do you think?
PAM SPAULDING, PAMSPAULDING.COM: OH, I absolutely agree. I think that anybody but Huckabee campaign is trying to gain momentum. That's what we are seeing here. Because that vote is split, I think we've seen a very interesting race in South Carolina. I think you might have seen a Huckabee win had Fred Thompson not been a part of that race.
HARRIS: That's interesting. And John McCain says he has broad-based republican support. He said that just a moment ago to our Dana Bash. Mary Katherine, what do you think, do you agree with that?
HAM: Well, you know, conservatives are not on board with the McCains. So they have not ever, it's been a long time since we've loved McCain. But it's long troubled relationship. But I think, you know, people respect him. He's obviously a war hero. He's a good guy. He's got a of experience. And there is some buzz about the fact that he could be a good match for Hillary. So although he bugs us, we're not afraid to watch him like wipe the floor with Hillary in a debate or something. So, that could be fun.
SPAULDING: Whatever.
HARRIS: Whatever. Hey, Pam, how about this, from the exit polling in South Carolina. Where are my glasses? I need my glasses here. Eight in ten of those voting yesterday called themselves republicans, yet just three in ten voted for McCain. When we get to the place where independents can't really sort of go their own way here, what does this mean for John McCain when he has to win conservatives, republicans?
SPAULDING: Well, he's in a world of hurt. I think in certain states this is going to be problematic in the general. But he's still got to prove something. He won in South Carolina. He won that heavy, independent vote. And he's still got something to prove. It really is going to be interesting on super duper Tuesday.
HARRIS: Last word on this before we turn to the democrats, Mary Katherine.
HAM: Well, nothing's being settled. That's the beauty of this primary season. Apparently more than two states are going to get to see these nominees...
HARRIS: How about that the voters are actually get to play and make some decisions here and taking it out of the hands of the pundits? And there I said the bloggers. OK.
To the democrats now. Let's see, let me see if I can phrase it this way, you lose in New Hampshire, you lose the overall race in Nevada. How confident do you feel if you're Barack Obama going into South Carolina and how important is tomorrow's debate, Pam?
SPAULDING: Well, I think the debates are also very critical when you're winding your way down to a primary right in front of one. I think that he's going to have - it's going to be interesting to see where the black vote goes. I think that the signs out of Nevada were troubling for Hillary.
HARRIS: Yes. And Michigan, as well. Wouldn't you say?
SPAULDING: Yes. So I think that's a factor. And I think we're going to get a good look at whether or not the Bradley effect is truly in play.
HARRIS: Now, what is that? Remind us again what that is.
SPAULDING: That is when white voters go to the polls and in entrance polls they say they may vote for the black candidate but when in fact they close that curtain, they vote for the white candidate.
HARRIS: Wow, Mary Katherine what do you think?
HAM: Well, you know, Obama has already shown himself to be a winner in an overwhelmingly white state in Iowa and in New Hampshire, I would add in the exit polls, they actually didn't underestimate or overestimate Obama's support. They underestimated Hillary's. So I don't know what that means. But it's not exactly a Bradley effect. So, we'll see what happens. But I think Pam's right, that the black vote is going to be huge in South Carolina. She was getting eight of ten coming into Vegas, eight of 10 black voters and it's really going to make a difference in South Carolina. And that racial politics dust up between Obama and Hillary last week is not going to help.
HARRIS: Oh, that was - what did you think of that? I thought that ended up being much a do about nothing. But you know look, you talk to folks everyday, probably more that I do, what do you think of it?
SPAULDING: Well, I think all of this dialogue sort of racial tinged charges and sort of back biting comments that have that flavor to them really ruins the discourse and takes away time that we should really be spending on talking about policy and differences between the candidates. And the real problem is our country does not have the difficult discussions about race that we need to have when it's not - the stakes aren't as high.
HARRIS: Mary Katherine, it felt like this was an attempt by surrogates, by Hillary herself, to pull Barack Obama into a discussion about where do you stand on issues, where do you stand on issues important to you?
HAM: Well, this is a huge issue. I think part of the problem is that, you know, we've become so hypersensitive about race that it's hard to talk about it without being accused of being a racist. So that's part of the problem. I think..
HARRIS: Essentially and at the end of the day doesn't that feel silly?
HAM: Yes, it does. But I think that the, you know, democrats and the press to a large degree have been instrumental in creating that.
HARRIS: I think you're right.
HAM: And so...
SPAULDING: And the consultant, don't forget them.
HAM: Yes, well, these are surrogates, but you have to take responsibility for what your surrogates are doing as well.
HARRIS: Hey, Pam, great to talk to you. Mary Katherine, great having you on the program. You know that. Back to the football games. We'll talk about the results of the games next week. Have a great Sunday morning.
HAM: Have a good one.
HARRIS: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, subprime lending has the housing market in a real mess right now. But some people are still, well in, a buying mood. We will tell you why this home auction is as much bad news as good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: In the market for some real estate? Well, how about a house for six grand? I kid you not, thousands of foreclosed homes and this is really sad, are going off the auction block all over the country right now. And this week, our Josh Levs showed up at an auction in Atlanta and this is, we talked about the subprime mortgage crisis, we talked about the credit crunch right now. And you got to see this. This is really where the rubber meets the road on this.
JOSH LEVS, CNN, CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We talk about people losing their houses. But when somebody loses it, somebody gets it.
HARRIS: Right, exactly.
LEVS: So, this is really the flip side of the whole economic system that keeps you going. So what I want to come now is show you this auction because if there's anyone out there at all who can profit from this mortgage crisis, these are those people.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEVS (voice-over): It's fast paced, big bucks and the sign of America's new realty as the mortgage crisis leads to record numbers of foreclosure, more and more people are spotting the opportunity and packing the foreclosure auctions. Mostly investors like Reginald Jackson.
REGINALD JACKSON, INVESTOR: You can make an average of at least 10, 15, 20,000 per property. It depends.
LEVS: He's done his home work. Looking at some modest homes as long term investments. The homes are listed online, so the bidders arrive knowing what they want. Jackson already bought six foreclosed homes this week.
JACKSON: I'm purchasing at least another six houses tonight.
LEVS: You know that sounds like a Monopoly.
JACKSON: Yes, I do. I'm pretty good at that game.
LEVS: So another property sold. This is one of many auctions taking place in the Atlanta area this week. They're selling off more than 500 homes valued between about $30,000 and $700,000. Many sell well below market value, but some folks here want the prices high. Realtors who list the properties. Michelle Gilbert now focuses on foreclosures.
MICHELLE GILBERT, REAL ESTATE AGENT: That's the way to go now. Unfortunately, the market is going in that direction.
LEVS: And for the company that runs the auction, it's a booming business.
DAVID WEBB, HUDSON & MARSHALL, INC. : Just last year alone, we did about 8,000 assets and this year we'll do 12,000 to 15,000.
LEVS: And when you look ahead, it's going to be more, right?
WEBB: It's going to be more. There's plenty on the market and really the auctions, the institutions that own these properties, really like the deal to go into the market area and move a lot of property in a very short period of time.
LEVS: Which plains why at these auctions, speed is the name of the game.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEVS: And I'll tell you, if there's one thing you should know as you look at that, there's actually 18 months between when a home gets foreclosed on and when it hits auction. Which means those were foreclosed in 2006. Which means if you think about all these foreclosures right now, certainly we are going to see so many auctions this year and next year because of that delay process. At least a couple more years.
HARRIS: Josh, there are the people who speculate on this kinds of market right now and are buying homes. I'm just curious about the folks who lose their homes.
LEVS: Right. What happened to them. Yes. Unfortunately, I guess, by the time they're the auctioned, people are usually are not living in their homes anymore so it's like at home, nervous, oh, no, somebody might get my home. Usually, because of this delay, they've moved in with families. A lot of people in these cases we find can only afford to live in rental properties, usually cheap rental properties, some even declare bankruptcy. You find very few people able to actually own a home, Tony, at that point but yes at this point by the time of the auction, they're generally moved on.
HARRIS: What a story. It is sad. And it is happening right now all across the country.
LEVS: Literally, everywhere.
HARRIS: Great to see you. Thanks.
U2. U2 in 3D. Sounds like a little like this character of a "Star Wars" movie. No, we're talking about one of the biggest films showing at the Sundance Film Festival. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: So you think it's cold where you live, here's one of those see to believe it videos we received from an I-reporter in Indiana today. He takes a bottle of water out of his garage refrigerator, and, well, take a look for yourself at what happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT FEHLINGER, I-REPORTER: See how cold it is in Elkhart, Indiana. Take a bottle of water out of the refrigerator. Make a little twist. Make that water and watch this. It freezes solid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Wait a minute. Jacqui Jeras, we know it's cold there in Indiana, but come on now. Is that real? If it's real, why isn't - well, he's going to have frostbite right about now, shouldn't he?
JACQUI JERAS, CNN, METEOROLOGIST: He should. Well, I looked at that I-reporter and he said the temperature was 10 degrees. And I'm telling you, most people have their temperature in their fridge at 40 degrees. So there's to way you're getting 40 degree water out in the 10 degree temperatures and having it freeze instantly like that.
HARRIS: Hello.
JERAS: So, you know, he must have a very cold fridge.
HARRIS: Exactly. Exactly. Good to see you, Jacqui. Cold all across the country right now.
JERAS: It really is. And just to prove my point, as well, I called my cousin in Minneapolis, Minnesota, actually Buffalo if you will. And it was four degrees there and he put the water bottle out at 5:00 and I said call me back when it's frozen. My phone hasn't rang yet.
HARRIS: Exactly. Come on. We do this for a living. Give us a break here.
JERAS: Exactly but it's fun to think about. I also heard these little tricks here. If you put it in a freezer, you take tout, you tap it - I don't know, anyway.
HARRIS: I'm calling him after the show by the way. Yes.
JERAS: Exactly. We want to know what's going on. All right. Check out these wind chills, Tony, because this is brutal out there. 21 below zero in Duluth, 21 below in Green Bay, 8 below in Milwaukee, 4 below in Chicago. It is extremely cold out there. You can get frostbite very easily. Cover everything up if you have to go outside. That cold, arctic air, all the way down here to the southeast, too.
Check out Nashville at 21. 30 degrees in Little Rock. 35 in Mobile. Almost freezing already down along the Gulf Coast. Wind chills not getting better here. Look at this throughout the day tomorrow, tomorrow night, we're still talking about well below zero. Feeling like it's 20s and 30s below even into Rapid City, South Dakota. Now, the arctic air is filling across the good portion of the country. You're not alone. Everybody's feeling the cold.
In fact, just about everybody with the exception of a small part of Texas is seeing temperatures at least slightly below average. But the real cold stuff staying up here. Cold air over the warm lakes means some lake effect snow bands are extremely heavy. We're tracking this one just north of Syracuse. I-81 was closed for a short time earlier today because of all that heavy snow. And we'll have more on that coming up at 10:00. HARRIS: All right, Jacqui. See you. Appreciate it. Thank you.
The biggest band in the world now starring in a larger than life feature film. It's called "U2 in 3D" and it's making its debut at the Sundance Film Festival. Our Brooke Anderson gives us a first look and listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN, CORRESPONDENT: A dizzying excitement permeates performances by the rock band U2.
BONO, U2: It's a rock and roll show, but there's lots of other feelings in it.
ANDERSON: Feeling the Irish rockers are now expressing in an unprecedented way, with the first live action 3D concert documentary. Why bring U2 in concert to 3D?
THE EDGE, U2: We've always been in 3D. We just thought it was time that everyone sawn us in 3D.
BONO: If you're wondering why I've been wearing the goggles...
ANDERSON: Because you've been in 3D the entire time.
BONO: Look, I've been looking at things in 3D.
ANDERSON: The band is premiering "U23D" at the Sundance Film Festival where celebrity friends including Woody Harrelson and Randy Quaid turned out to support them.
CATHERINE OWENS, CO-DIRECTOR, "U23D": We tried to take a seriously high-technology and give it a very intimate feel and bring a lot of emotion to it.
ANDERSON: The film's co-director, Catherine Owens has a long history with U2, having worked with them since the early '90s. The film offers movie goers with 3D glasses, a front row seat to their 2006 Monster Stadium shows in South America with crowds of up to 100,000 people.
BONO: These people are incredible people and they took our bands to their hearts, you know, for a long time. In Buenos Aires, Rio, Mexico City, Latin people. Irish people are essentially Latin people who don't know how to dance.
ANDERSON: U2's trademark anti-violence messages are prominent in the film with a spotlight on the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. The rockers see their mission as more than music.
BONO: People feel that our band is part of something bigger than just our band. And they're right. We're humble to be part of what's happening in the world.
ANDERSON: The message and the music are a powerful combination, especially in 3D.
BONO: This is the closest thing to being in the front row. It's not like a normal concert film. It's sort of totally immersing experience.
ANDERSON: Brooke Anderson, CNN, Park City, Utah.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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