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LOU DOBBS TONIGHT

Presidential Candidates Campaign in Super Tuesday States; Interview With Janet Murguia of the Council of La Raza

Aired February 4, 2008 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight presidential candidates making a last effort to win the support of voters before Super Tuesday, those voters have had a belly full of partisan bladder by now. They're demanding clear policy prescriptions. Will they get them?

And the leader of one of the nation's biggest pro amnesty group is Janet Murguia, accusing me of quote, "demonizing the Hispanic community and she wants me fired. She is here tonight to explain why. Janet Murguia, president of the National Council of La Raza will be here for a frank discussion about free speech as well.

We'll have all of that, all of the day's news and a lot more straight ahead here tonight.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Monday, February 4. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Senator Clinton, Senator Obama tonight in an extremely tight race in the final hours of campaigning before Super Tuesday. Both Clinton and Obama today launched a day of frenzied campaigning in the northeast, one of the most important regions in this coast-to-coast battle.

Meanwhile, Senator McCain intensified his campaign, buoyed by polls showing he is the GOP front-runner. His chief rival, Mitt Romney, striking back, accusing Senator McCain of not being a true conservative. We'll have extensive coverage here tonight and we begin with Suzanne Malveaux in Hartford, Connecticut, where she's with the Obama campaign -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, Senator Obama is still here shaking hands. Really a lot of enthusiasm from this crowd, Connecticut an important state, he is really trying to rally the Democratic base, but also gets some free media attention, local markets in neighboring states and at the same time trying to win some of the Republicans, so it is Republicans who gave McCain his victory over George W. Bush in the last G.O. (ph) primary here, about 50 percent of those Republicans identifying themselves as moderate and even liberal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): In a race to the finish, where every delegate counts. A fierce fight over a former Clinton stronghold, New Jersey, where 107 delegates are at stake.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How is it going New Jersey?

MALVEAUX: His second stop, Connecticut, where only 48 delegates are up for grabs, but the state has the highest per capita income in the country. Obama intends to do well among the upper and middle class voters. In an effort to appeal to Republican crossovers in women, three female Democrats elected in red states touted Obama's appeal in the "Wall Street Journal" saying he is "a nominee who can bring all of us together, push back the special interests and offer leadership that is honest, open and inspiring."

The Obama camp also using new rap video with star power to reach those critical new young voters who have turned out in record numbers. Tonight a big blow out rally in the Democratic stronghold Massachusetts, where the gray headed establishment, Senators John Kerry and Ted Kennedy passing the torch to new leadership, Massachusetts' first black governor, Deval Patrick, and the new hope for the presidency Barack Obama.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And Lou, the Obama campaign is already trying to lower expectations for tomorrow. They say they fully expect Senator Clinton to win more states and more delegate, if Obama within 100 delegates of Clinton and he win some states they say they reached a threshold for success and that they also believe it puts him in a better ability to win the nomination. It is all about the headlines and the expectation game, Lou, and of course they are spinning it already. Lou.

DOBBS: Presidential politics, you got to love it, not only are they competing in the races but defining what success is. It is a pretty good approach, don't you think?

MALVEAUX: They know that the race is going to go for some time after Super Tuesday so they are hoping for those headlines that say, he did better than expected -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Suzanne Malveaux with the Obama campaign.

Senator Clinton today also barnstorming across the northeast trying to win every last minute vote possible. At one point Senator Clinton today lost her voice. She also teared up during a reunion with a former colleague from the early days of her legal career. Candy Crowley has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Regardless of what happens tomorrow, they believe her ace in the hole is the experience factor.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But there are differences between me and my opponent, differences in approach and vision and understanding of what it's going to take to make the changes that we want. Change is hard. I wish it were easy. I wish all we had to do was just say it's going to happen and it would materialize but it is going to take hard work.

CROWLEY: Camp Clinton concedes Obama is closing in on the polls but they toss it off as partly due to Edwards' voters' influx and partly due to this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next president of these United States.

CROWLEY: As one Clinton adviser put it nobody in the country doesn't know that Ted Kennedy endorsed Obama, he got an up tick. Clinton strategists say they don't expect tomorrow to bring definitive results. They figure her delegate pickup in New York will be offset by his in Illinois that they will split delegates in the swing states. They are talking already about Ohio, Texas and well into April, Pennsylvania. Today, for her it was New York, Massachusetts, and New Haven, Connecticut, where she was introduced by a friend from her law school days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will know what needs to be known, you will say what needs to be said, you will do what needs to be done and you will make our beloved America the great nation for children we have always dreamed it could be.

H. CLINTON: I said I would not tear up.

(LAUGHTER)

H. CLINTON: And already we're not exactly on that path.

(LAUGHTER)

CROWLEY: Safe to say that early on they did not believe this is where is they'd be on Super Tuesday but they insist the destination will be the same. As one Clinton source put it whenever the narrative is driven that Obama soon be the nominee, there is an experience backlash and voters return to her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: In the end, Clinton's message now is much the same as it was when she began. She will bring change and has the experience to do it.

DOBBS: This looks like it's going to take a little longer than the campaigns, either the Obama or Clinton campaigns expected.

CROWLEY: Absolutely and what's interesting is now in the Clinton campaign this afternoon, conference call with advisers, they're even talking about a brokered convention. Now you know I'm with Suzanne. You never know like exactly what they're doing in the expectations game, but just the fact that they bring it up, I mean you know you and I would love that, right?

DOBBS: I would absolutely relish that. And I think most Americans would. It's fascinating, there is such -- talk about expectations. The national media continues to want to have this thing over with, they want to move onto the next step, it seems to me in general. Instead of letting the process go forward and I much prefer the process going forward, you know that democracy thing at work, isn't that nice?

CROWLEY: It's amazing. Yeah, actually I'm one of those that thinks you know it would be great if it went on because I mean we keep talking about how this is a historic election, it is. Why not let it play out? I mean...

DOBBS: Absolutely and the reality is that a national presidential election is an opportunity to create national political consensus.

CROWLEY: Absolutely.

DOBBS: There hasn't been enough substance discussed and debated even after 30 debates for the American people to have anything approaching that consensus developed. So sign me up with you, Candy.

CROWLEY: It's a deal.

DOBBS: Let's get that brokered convention. Thanks, Candy Crowley.

The latest national poll is showing the race between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama is still too close to call. Imagine that. In a new CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll shows Obama has 49 percent, Clinton with 46 percent, well within the margin of error, you'll be pleased to learn.

And a national poll of polls giving Clinton 45 percent, and Obama 43 percent, again a statistical dead heat. In the Republican contest the latest CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll shows Senator McCain with 44 percent, indicating McCain has a clear lead over rivals and in this latest poll of polls is very similar the poll showing Senator McCain with 45 percent of support and of course tomorrow we can see all of this dashed by willful Americans going to the polls.

Senator John McCain and former Governor Mitt Romney today escalating their battle to win the support of conservative voters, Romney accusing McCain of being friends with liberal Democrats, McCain insisting he's a proud conservative. John King has our report from Boston where Senator McCain today strongly defended his conservatism and his record.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Historic Faneuil Hall was in Mitt Romney's home turf, this a John McCain show of confidence.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you all. Thank you for being here.

KING: A defiant rebuke of Romney and others who suggest his eagerness to work with Democrats betrays the conservative cause.

MCCAIN: I will preserve my proud conservative Republican credentials, but I will reach across the aisle to the Democrats and work together for the good of this country.

KING: McCain sees a big Super Tuesday in the offing and knows an upset victory here would be devastating to Romney.

MCCAIN: I believe we have every good shot at carrying the state of Massachusetts tomorrow and winning this state and sweeping...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Romney backers though dismiss McCain's chances in Massachusetts and mock him as too fond of liberal Democrats, a message Romney himself echoed as he campaigned in Tennessee, Oklahoma and here in Georgia.

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do you want as our nominee somebody who fought for McCain-Kennedy, which is an amnesty bill for illegals.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (INAUDIBLE)

ROMNEY: And so you guys were going to hand the liberals in our party a little surprise on Tuesday evening when we take California and we take Georgia and we take states across the country and we get this nomination.

KING: But Romney's southern strategy is complicated by more than a rally around the McCain movement.

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know Mr. Romney has been trying to do a little voter suppression by telling people that a vote for me is really a vote for John McCain.

KING: In Tennessee and elsewhere former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee vowed to fight on and yet again took sharpest aim at Romney.

HUCKABEE: A vote for me is exactly what it is. It is a vote for me, a vote for somebody who hasn't just decided this year where he stands on the Second Amendment. I've stood there, always have, always will. It's a vote for somebody who knows where he stands on the sanctity of life; it is somebody who knows where he stands on the federal marriage amendment.

KING (on camera): And as Governor Huckabee vows to fight on, a McCain campaign (inaudible), began on the East Coast, is ending on the west as both Senator McCain and Governor Romney race to hotly contested California to make one last pitch in Super Tuesday's biggest prize.

John King, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: Much more on the final hours of campaigning ahead of Super Tuesday, also foreign governments buying stakes in some of our most important financial institutions in this country. Christen Romans will have our report -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, large and secretive foreign government funds have come to the rescue of an American banking system in crisis giving billions of dollars of desperately needed cash but also raising some concerns about motive and transparency -- Lou.

DOBBS: Christine, thank you, looking forward to it.

Also the president of the National Council of La Raza, Janet Murguia, accuses me of using what she calls hate speech about illegal aliens. Really? Janet Murguia joins us for a debate, a discussion, a frank one, and I think pretty civil.

The state of California could play a pivotal role in the presidential election for the first time in nearly four decades. We'll tell you how and why. Stay with us. We're coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Delegates in 24 states have stake in tomorrow's Super Tuesday primaries and caucuses. California will be one of the Super Tuesday states for the first time. With more than 500 delegates, California will have a significant voice in who the nominees for both parties may ultimately be. Casey Wian has our report from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The last time California played a major role in deciding a major party's presidential nominee was in 1972, when George McGovern beat fellow Democrat Hubert Humphrey, state lawmakers tired of seeing California voters treated as an after thought moved up their primary from June to Super Tuesday.

REP. XAVIER BECERRA (D), CALIFORNIA: I think it's phenomenal that my state will make a difference in this election. It's been a long time since the most populated state, the most diverse state has this opportunity.

WIAN: The bill moving California's primary four months earlier was signed by Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and proposed by Democratic State Senator Ron Calderon.

RON CALDERON, CALIF. STATE SENATE: This will make California more relevant and the people that elect our nominee will be sending that message loud and clear.

WIAN: Presidential primary candidates used to stop in California mainly to raise money from Hollywood and Silicon Valley, now both parties are courting voters here. ROMNEY: It's critical I think at this time and that's why I think I have got a good shot of getting real support from Californians.

WIAN: Some invoke the memory of California's most acclaimed politician, Ronald Reagan.

MCCAIN: I stand for the principles and policies that first attracted me to the Republican Party when I heard, in whispered conversations and tap codes about the then governor of California who stood by me and my comrades and who was making quite a reputation for standing by his convictions no matter the changing political winds or thought and popular culture.

WIAN: Others run from Reagan's legacy.

H. CLINTON: You talked about admiring Ronald Reagan...

OBAMA: I'm sorry...

H. CLINTON: You talked about the ideas of the Republicans.

(CROSSTALK)

H. CLINTON: I didn't talk about Ronald Reagan.

OBAMA: Now, wait. We just had the tape and you just said that I complemented the Republican ideas. That is not true.

WIAN: But all the candidates agree California matters this time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: And voters also apparently agree, 700,000 new California voters have registered since the last presidential primary, a quarter of a million of those since December, so turnout here could be very strong -- Lou.

DOBBS: And the role of the Independent could be interesting because Independents are registering at a rate far higher than either Democrats or Republicans nationwide.

WIAN: Absolutely and the number of undecided voters are still in the teens in California, a lot of those undecided voters tend to have the independent leanings, so they could very much play a big role in this election, Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Casey Wian from Los Angeles.

A poll of California voters showing a very tight race among the front-runners in both parties, the Republican contest tied in the latest California poll of poll, Senator McCain and former Governor Mitt Romney, each at 35 percent, 12 percent undecided or unsure if you prefer.

And on the Democratic side, Senator Clinton at 44 percent to Senator Obama's 40 percent, 16 percent of those Democratic voters still unsure as to whom they will vote for.

Time now for tonight's poll question in this broadcast, do you believer these presidential candidates of both parties are motivated to run out of political ambition or a sense of national service? We'd love to hear what you think. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.

A u-turn in the state of Oregon, strict new regulations today went into effect to stop illegal aliens from obtaining drivers' licenses in the state of Oregon. Starting today anyone in Oregon applying for a driver's license must provide a verifiable Social Security number of similar proof of legal status in this country and at least one other piece of identification. Only four states in the continental United States now still give drivers' licenses to illegal aliens. They are Maine, New Mexico, Utah and Washington. It was just a few weeks ago that the number was eight.

Coming up here next, foreign governments spending billions to buy more and more of America, so what's our federal government, our president, our Congress, what are they doing about it? We will have a special report on what they do best.

And National Council of La Raza president, Janet Murguia has launched a new campaign against me. She accuses among other things of quote, "handing hate a microphone". She wants me fired. I'll respond to her accusations, we'll have a bit of a debate when she joins me here tonight. Stay with us. We're coming right back with that and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: It's time for economic consequences because of the public policies that have been followed by this country for 30 years. America is not only for sale, it's a fire sale. And a Singapore Sovereign Wealth Fund now says it will offer greater disclosure of its activities following major investments in two U.S. companies. This comes after rising concerns of foreign governments...

(AUDIO GAP)

DOBBS: ... in the United States. Critics fear those governments could become increasingly influential as they buy large stakes in everything from the NASDAQ stock market to critical defense technology and they are also warning there are no guarantees about those government's intentions, as Christen Romans now reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS (voice-over): Bad bets on sub prime mortgages have left marquee financial companies desperate for cash. Middle Eastern and Asian governments have it thanks to America's massive appetite for imported oil and manufactured goods. China has invested billions in Bear Stearns and Morgan Stanley. Singapore has shored up Citigroup and Merrill Lynch, Merrill also tapping Kuwait, South Korea and wealthy Saudi investors. Each investment just under the threshold to trigger examination by U.S. authorities, yet the usual concerns about the intentions of the government are notably silent.

SEN. JIM WEBB (D), VIRGINIA: We're seeing some sort of willful turning of the blind eye to potential dangers here. And we need as a government to examine very carefully the national interests that is at risk here.

ROMANS: Some say the uneasy reality is beggars can't be choosers, but...

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D-IN), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: We should not sell our sovereignty for any price, so we should welcome the capital. We want the investments. It strengthens our economy, but governments are different than private investors and from time to time governments will have interests other than simply maximizing their profits.

ROMANS: What those profits are we don't know except for Norway's Sovereign Wealth Funds they don't disclose performance, assets or objectives. The Treasury Department puts Sovereign Wealth Fund holdings at $2.5 trillion and growing by a trillion dollars a year, reaching according to one forecast, $13.4 trillion in a decade, roughly the size of the entire U.S. economy today.

PROF. KEN ROGOFF, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: If we're really bothered by the Sovereign Wealth Funds and we don't like the idea that they're buying up so much of our assets, then we ought to figure a way to raise our savings rate so that we're not running these giant trade deficits because of that at the end of the day is what's pouring money into the rest of the world that's coming back in the form of these Sovereign Wealth Funds.

ROMANS: He says without their infusions of cash, the financial crisis in this country today would be far worse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: The Treasury Department and the president just last week downplayed concerns about the intentions of Sovereign Wealth Funds saying above all the United States is open for international investment and will remain so. Even critics say this country is frankly in no position to turn down foreign government investment into U.S. infrastructure, into U.S. companies because of our trade deficits and our current situation.

DOBBS: Well as the good professor pointed out, and it's nice to hear Harvard breaking with orthodoxy, at least in his case, suggesting that we have to look at these trade imbalances, which I have been says literally for years and years. Now the trade debt is over $6 trillion.

The fact is that Henry Paulson and this economic team and this failed administration in terms of economic policy, they have to say whatever they can about this money because without that foreign capital we have institution after institution that simply insolvent.

ROMANS: And there's also this feeling, Lou that many people say with no evidence they're anything but long-term investors in the capital system...

DOBBS: In the case of the Sovereign Wealth Fund?

ROMANS: Right. Exactly, that they're just your average long- term investor with hundreds of billions of dollars, we don't even know how much money is out there, that there's been no evidence that they're trying to do anything to -- you know untoward at this point but there still are those questions out there that national interests can sometimes trump investment interests and we just haven't seen that yet.

DOBBS: In every country of course but this where the national interest is never considered by any part of our government or corporate America. Thank you very much, Christine Romans.

Well time now to look at some of your thoughts. Alan in Rhode Island said, "I cannot believe it when someone prefers the term undocumented workers over illegal aliens, perhaps if someone broke into their home, they would prefer the term, keyless entry over breaking and entering."

And Jim in Wisconsin, "As if we need any more reasons to register as Independents, I just turned on CNN and was given 3.1 trillion more reasons to kick all of these panderers out of Washington", referring to the new Bush administration budget.

Charlie in Maryland, "Hi, Lou, and with so many leaders and legislators pandering to and giving into the demands of special interest groups, it would be really nice if they could pander to the largest special interest group of all, the American middle class." Now that is a great thought.

And Chet in Florida, "Lou, if these candidates know how to fix our problems why haven't they already introduced bills to do so?", a great question.

We'll have more of your thoughts here later in this broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit", the book that corporate America, the Democratic and Republican Parties, La Raza and a few other groups probably don't want you to read. Do so anyway.

Up next, many of the country's bridges, highways and dams literally falling apart, our political leaders refusing to take action. We'll have a special report.

And Senators Clinton and Obama in a statistical dead heat nationally just ahead of Super Tuesday, I'll be joined by three of the best political analysts to discuss that and the Republican contest of course.

And one of the country's leading pro-amnesty advocates, Janet Murguia of La Raza, says I demonize Hispanics and she wants me fired. We'll be discussing that. I hope it will be a cool and frank discussion. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Janet Murguia is the president of the National Council of La Raza. She attacked me last week for in her words "handing hate a microphone" and for driving the debate on illegal immigration in such a way that demonizes the Hispanic community. She is also criticizing the presidential candidates for their newfound focus on illegal immigration.

We called Janet Murguia and we're told that -- at least I found out today, before we could ask you, your PR director asked us for you to be here, and we're delighted you are.

Janet Murguia joins us now.

OK. You and I have talked over the years, many times about illegal immigration. You accused me of being basically a hatemonger. And the reality is, I'm not. And you know that. So let's get to...

JANET MURGUIA, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: OK.

DOBBS: ... what in the world are you doing with this organization?

MURGUIA: Well, I think the key fact is that we can document now a wave of hate and different ways in which that...

DOBBS: Let's be -- no, I want to be specific.

MURGUIA: Different ways in which the hate is manifested.

DOBBS: You're talking about me.

MURGUIA: Again...

DOBBS: You're talking about me.

MURGUIA: Let me just make my case.

DOBBS: Sure.

MURGUIA: We're talking about a wave of hate and the way that that hate is manifested in different representatives that you have on this show.

We have got self-avowed vigilante representatives. This is Chris Simcox. He's been on your show five times on CNN.

DOBBS: The founder of the Minutemen.

MURGUIA: Founder of the Minuteman Project. And according to the SPLC, Southern Poverty...

DOBBS: Which is nothing more than a fund-raising and...

MURGUIA: That's your opinion. Let me just get this stuff...

DOBBS: That's right, but I'm going to tell you what it is.

MURGUIA: Simcox was convicted in 2003 of carrying a weapon in the national park while searching for undocumented immigrants. That same year, he was quoted in an Orange County newspaper saying, "So far, we've had restraint, but I'm afraid that restraint is wearing thin. Take heed of our weapons, because we are going to defend our borders by any means necessary."

He's a self-avowed vigilante...

DOBBS: Is he in charge of the Minutemen?

MURGUIA: Yes. He's the founder of the...

DOBBS: No, he's not.

MURGUIA: ... of the Minutemen Project.

DOBBS: He's no longer associated with the Minutemen.

MURGUIA: He is associated and is a spokesperson...

DOBBS: No.

MURGUIA: ... and was a spokesperson all these times.

DOBBS: Jim Gilchrist?

MURGUIA: Jim Gilchrist -- co-founder of the Minutemen Project, self-avowed vigilante. And he's been on your show eight times and on CNN 27 times.

You said that you proudly, proudly support these projects, that they're fine Americans and who make up all...

DOBBS: Can we see what you...

MURGUIA: Sure. I'm sorry. You said that you support the Minuteman Project, and that they're fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished fully, relentlessly, and proudly.

DOBBS: Right.

MURGUIA: So I want to make sure you understand. These are folks who are documented to be part of hate groups.

DOBBS: Who documented them?

MURGUIA: Southern Poverty Leadership...

DOBBS: Southern Poverty Law Center...

MURGUIA: And the American Defamation League, ADL.

DOBBS: Both of whom are absolute advocate groups for open borders and amnesty for illegal aliens. MURGUIA: That's your opinion.

DOBBS: No, it's not my opinion.

MURGUIA: Yes, it is your opinion.

DOBBS: No, it's a fact.

MURGUIA: We have a Web site that documents not just these individuals, but others who are tied to hate groups or vigilante groups...

DOBBS: What did President Bush call them?

MURGUIA: ... and we've seen them on the air...

DOBBS: What did...

MURGUIA: ... relentlessly...

DOBBS: You have never...

MURGUIA: ... representing a point of view on immigration. It's like having David Duke on a panel to talk about affirmative action.

DOBBS: You're way...

MURGUIA: It's unaccepted -- it's unacceptable...

DOBBS: You're way overreaching (ph)...

MURGUIA: And we don't want to tolerate it anymore. We're taking our case to the network heads and we're asking them to hold the networks accountable. We want to hold...

DOBBS: You want me fired, don't you?

MURGUIA: No, I'm saying that...

DOBBS: Don't you want me fired?

MURGUIA: No, I want to hold you accountable for how you use your microphone every night.

DOBBS: Who am I to be accountable to? You?

MURGUIA: No. You're accountable to the broader...

DOBBS: Aren't I accountable to my audience?

MURGUIA: You're accountable to the broader public, in making sure that we're bringing factual information...

DOBBS: OK, let's talk about some facts, shall we?

MURGUIA: ... to the people. DOBBS: I want you to get through your charts.

MURGUIA: Sure.

DOBBS: I want to point out one thing, if I may, on this. The statement about the Minutemen came after President Bush had called the Minutemen vigilantes.

MURGUIA: That's right.

DOBBS: The fact is, that the Minutemen -- and please, this is your opportunity. The Minutemen have never, ever been charged with an act of violence...

MURGUIA: Chris Simcox was arrested and convicted.

DOBBS: Oh, was he a member of the Minutemen when that occurred?

MURGUIA: Yes. It was in 2003, and he was founder of the Minutemen Project.

DOBBS: And he was doing what?

MURGUIA: He was convicted -- arrested and convicted of carrying a gun into a national park searching for undocumented immigrants. All this is documented on our Web site.

DOBBS: So you would cast the entire organization of the Minutemen...

MURGUIA: I'm casting him. I'm holding you accountable for putting him on the airwaves and saying that he is an expert on immigration reform. That's ridiculous. He's not an expert on immigration reform.

DOBBS: Did we say he was an expert, or did we say that he was one of the founders of the Minutemen?

MURGUIA: I think you couch this -- you gave him this aura of respectability. You also cited in 2006 a source of your, you know, branding it CNN and Lou Dobbs, around the Council of Conservative Citizens, which also the SPLC has named as a white nationalist hate group. This is a group that denigrates routinely blacks as genetically inferior, complained about, you know, Jewish power, and also denigrated homosexuals as perverted sodomites.

All I'm saying is, you're co-branding yourself and CNN with a white supremacist nationalist hate group.

DOBBS: Did we do that?

MURGUIA: This...

DOBBS: Did we really?

MURGUIA: ... was on your program on May 23rd... DOBBS: How long was that on the air?

MURGUIA: ... 2006.

DOBBS: How long was that...

MURGUIA: It doesn't matter how long.

DOBBS: Of course it does.

MURGUIA: It doesn't.

DOBBS: Of course it does.

MURGUIA: You're using hate speech, hate group to make a case on immigration.

DOBBS: I'm going to tell you straight up...

MURGUIA: To make a case on immigration.

DOBBS: Do you want the answer?

MURGUIA: Sure.

DOBBS: You want to know how long it was on the air?

MURGUIA: It doesn't matter.

DOBBS: Seconds. You have just given them more airtime than this network, this broadcast ever did.

MURGUIA: And I'm holding you accountable for having given them any sort of exposure.

DOBBS: Oh, you are?

MURGUIA: And the fact that you're associating yourself...

DOBBS: So you should be...

MURGUIA: ... with this extremist...

DOBBS: I associated myself?

MURGUIA: You cite them as a fact...

DOBBS: I did?

MURGUIA: ... on this...

DOBBS: Did I?

MURGUIA: This says, "Dobbs -- LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, CNN."

DOBBS: Right. MURGUIA: That's there for everyone to see.

DOBBS: Right.

MURGUIA: This is from your show on May 23rd, 2006.

DOBBS: Right.

MURGUIA: This kind of hate speech, this kind...

DOBBS: What year?

MURGUIA: 2006.

DOBBS: You got anything a little more recent?

MURGUIA: We have got a whole Web site that documents all of this.

DOBBS: I -- let's go through your Web site. OK?

MURGUIA: Yes, sure.

DOBBS: Let's go through this.

MURGUIA: Yes. Because we've made a case.

DOBBS: I want you to...

MURGUIA: We want to make sure that you need to know. Just make one point -- hate speech has consequences. We have seen the rise in hate crimes in the same time that these types of comments and people were on your show and on other CNN shows...

DOBBS: So I'm responsible for that?

MURGUIA: ... Fox, MSNBC -- we're holding all three networks. We saw a rise in hate crimes against Hispanics raised by 23 percent. And twice that in California.

Hate speech has consequences.

DOBBS: Janet, OK, is it my turn? You have now been talking for over four minutes.

MURGUIA: You have the mike every night.

DOBBS: So you're taking it away from me tonight?

MURGUIA: I'm just saying, I want to make my case.

DOBBS: So you wouldn't like -- OK.

MURGUIA: I appreciate...

DOBBS: Would you like me to -- OK. So what would you like me to do? I will tell you what, we'll give you some more time, and then I'll respond to you tomorrow evening.

MURGUIA: OK.

DOBBS: How about it?

MURGUIA: Well, I appreciate that.

I just want to make sure you know, for us, it's intolerable and untenable.

DOBBS: Who's us?

MURGUIA: The National Council of La Raza. We represent a civil rights and advocacy organization...

DOBBS: You're a civil rights and...

MURGUIA: ... for 40 years.

DOBBS: You're a socio-ethnocentric organization with a specific interest in driving illegal immigration and amnesty, and you know it.

MURGUIA: That's your opinion.

DOBBS: You are being...

MURGUIA: That's your opinion. That's like me saying...

DOBBS: You are...

MURGUIA: ... you're part of the media elites...

DOBBS: You are racially focused (ph)...

MURGUIA: ... because CNN is a conglomerate.

DOBBS: If I...

MURGUIA: We represent 40 years of history in this country of advancing...

DOBBS: You are abusing it...

MURGUIA: ... the interests of Hispanics.

DOBBS: You are abusing it now in a way...

MURGUIA: And when you attack immigrants...

DOBBS: ... that's (inaudible).

MURGUIA: You're attacking now...

DOBBS: I have never attacked an immigrant, ever.

MURGUIA: When you use these kinds of representatives... DOBBS: No, I have never, ever.

MURGUIA: When you use these kinds of representatives...

DOBBS: Have I ever attacked an immigrant? Have I ever?

MURGUIA: I'm saying that when you...

DOBBS: Have I ever spoken against legal immigration in this country?

MURGUIA: You make a case...

DOBBS: Have I ever...

MURGUIA: ... supporting these individuals.

DOBBS: I have made a case...

MURGUIA: Dan Stein with FAIR...

DOBBS: ... for securing the borders.

MURGUIA: FAIR is a known, documented hate group.

DOBBS: Dan...

MURGUIA: They receive...

DOBBS: They're a hate group?

MURGUIA: That's correct.

DOBBS: From -- oh my gosh. You...

MURGUIA: This is now -- this is from the Southern Poverty Law Center. They document that their founder, their creator, is John Tanton, a man who remains on FAIR's board and operates a racist publishing company. He once has compared immigrants to bacteria...

DOBBS: Janet -- OK.

MURGUIA: FAIR has employed members of white supremacists. They promote racist conspiracy theories, and they receive funding from the Pioneer Fund, which is a racist foundation devoted to eugenics and proving a connection between race and IQ.

You trot these folks out. You cloak them with an air of respectability, and you give them a platform. That's not acceptable to us, to have these kinds of individuals spewing their rhetoric...

DOBBS: Well, you're -- I guess what I'm saying is...

MURGUIA: ... on this...

DOBBS: ... ladi-da, it's not acceptable to you. What gives you such special prerogative here?

MURGUIA: It's not me. This is hate speech.

DOBBS: Who is this -- I'm sorry...

MURGUIA: This should be offensive not just to us.

DOBBS: ... you're the one who's making the charge.

MURGUIA: These types of individuals and the words that they use have consequences. We've seen that documented over the period of the last three years.

(CROSSTALK)

MURGUIA: According to the FBI and the Department of Justice, and that's on our Web site too.

I want folks to be able to know that there is a wave of hate out there. It's being generated in many respects by the cable news networks, and we want to hold them accountable for the individuals that they're using on the airwaves. And we don't want commentators parroting their speech, because it only manifests...

DOBBS: Well, I'm a lot of things, but I'm sure not a bigot and I'm sure not a parrot. And I think what gives you the greatest trouble is I'm an independent, and I'm not going to put up with the nonsense, whether it originates with La Raza, whether it originates with FAIR, and the fact that you...

MURGUIA: This isn't about you, Lou.

DOBBS: Oh, yes, it is.

MURGUIA: No, it's not.

DOBBS: Yes, it is.

MURGUIA: It's about holding...

DOBBS: You have attacked me.

MURGUIA: ... your network accountable.

DOBBS: You called me...

MURGUIA: It's about holding your network accountable...

DOBBS: My network is accountable...

MURGUIA: ... for allowing...

DOBBS: ... every day.

MURGUIA: Well, we are going to make sure...

DOBBS: This network...

MURGUIA: ... that that's the case.

DOBBS: Oh, you're not going to make certain at all.

MURGUIA: We are meeting -- I already have a meeting with CNN worldwide president...

DOBBS: Jim Walton.

MURGUIA: ... Mr. Jim Walton...

DOBBS: Right.

MURGUIA: ... to talk to him about this.

DOBBS: He's a good man to start with.

MURGUIA: Well, we're going to hold you accountable. We're going to hold the other networks accountable.

DOBBS: And what are you going to do?

MURGUIA: We're going to ask them to remove these kinds of representatives...

DOBBS: So you want me -- you want me fired?

MURGUIA: Not you. I said these representatives, who are tied to vigilante and hate groups, as documented by the ADL or by the Southern Poverty Law Center. They have no place on the airwaves.

DOBBS: Let me tell you something: The Southern Poverty Law Center...

MURGUIA: And we want to make sure that you're not parroting their speech.

DOBBS: Now -- now, may I respond? Now, for you to inject hate and bigotry into this debate on illegal immigration...

MURGUIA: I didn't inject it.

DOBBS: ... on your Web site...

MURGUIA: I didn't inject it. I can document how it has been injected.

DOBBS: It's my turn. It's my turn. I've given you, I think, seven, eight minutes.

Let's start with the reality. I have never said a word against a legal immigrant into this country, nor would I ever. I have called for more legal immigration, not less.

Now, listen. I listened to you, OK? I want to -- do we have that record on -- let's put up the -- you said a 23 percent increase in hate crimes against Hispanics. Can we put up the full screen on this?

MURGUIA: You know, the ADL documents code words for hate.

DOBBS: The ADL -- oh, yes, sure.

MURGUIA: And you've used a few of those code words for hate.

DOBBS: Name one code word.

MURGUIA: Well, they talk about dehumanizing. They're demonizing immigrants...

DOBBS: That's their word. That's not my word.

MURGUIA: Well, I'm telling you, they've had a...

DOBBS: What's my word?

MURGUIA: ... clear record of documented hate speech.

DOBBS: They have.

MURGUIA: Yes, they have. They are a very well respected voice.

DOBBS: Not by me.

MURGUIA: The Anti-Defamation League...

DOBBS: They are a joke.

MURGUIA: They are not a joke. They are an outstanding organization.

DOBBS: I want you to go to that Web site of yours and listen to that discussion on there. That woman is a joke. OK?

MURGUIA: That's your opinion. We document this.

DOBBS: It's my opinion.

MURGUIA: She talks about...

DOBBS: May I continue?

MURGUIA: ... the efforts to dehumanize and demonize Latinos.

DOBBS: Would you please -- oh, come on.

MURGUIA: When you refer to them as bringing in massive disease, as we know you have...

DOBBS: Do you -- excuse me...

MURGUIA: We can document that.

DOBBS: Eight seconds on the air, referring one time -- let me ask you something. Do you think that illegal aliens should be exempt from public health standards that are applied to every legal immigrant in this country, is that what you're saying?

MURGUIA: This is about code words for hate speech.

DOBBS: Code words.

MURGUIA: That's right.

DOBBS: You are...

MURGUIA: And we document that...

DOBBS: Janet, you and your organization...

MURGUIA: ... on the Web site.

DOBBS: ... are completely out of your minds on this issue. If you think -- you have -- are you calling me a bigot?

MURGUIA: Lou, I stand by my record as leading an organization...

DOBBS: You can stand by your record as you want to...

MURGUIA: ... for 40 years as a civil rights advocacy organization, represents 44 million Hispanics in this country.

DOBBS: You're sitting here, attacking freedom of speech, suggesting that the only one who can oppose you would be (inaudible)...

MURGUIA: We have to draw the line on freedom of speech, when freedom of speech becomes hate speech.

DOBBS: You wouldn't be involved in this debate if it were not...

MURGUIA: Hate speech is not acceptable.

DOBBS: Excuse me. You would not even be involved in this debate on illegal immigration unless the preponderance of those illegal aliens were Hispanic. And you know that is a fact.

MURGUIA: I know...

DOBBS: I would be involved in this debate no matter what.

MURGUIA: ... that we can't stand for dehumanizing and demonizing and scapegoating a segment of our society...

DOBBS: Then why in the world have you not taken on the government of Mexico and Central America, and those who create the conditions that drive -- that drive illegal immigration?

MURGUIA: We have been engaged in this issue...

DOBBS: You have not been engaged.

MURGUIA: Yes, we have. And we are making...

DOBBS: You have not. When was the last time you spoke...

MURGUIA: ... every case right now...

DOBBS: ... with the...

MURGUIA: ... to push back on the hate that dehumanizes...

DOBBS: When was the last time -- when is the last time you even addressed a foreign government and the quality...

MURGUIA: I'm concerned about what's happening here in this country.

DOBBS: Oh, I see.

MURGUIA: This is about...

DOBBS: Why aren't you worrying about our borders being secured, our ports being secured? Why aren't you worried about building...

MURGUIA: We are for comprehensive immigration reform, but this is about hate speech.

DOBBS: Comprehensive immigration reform?

MURGUIA: This is about hate speech, and it has no place...

DOBBS: Janet, what this is about is...

MURGUIA: ... on the air. You can try to divert this away from the hate and the representatives of vigilante groups, and you're standing with these vigilante groups. These are self-avowed vigilante groups. You're standing proudly by them.

You can try to sort of dismiss that, but the reality is, is we can't allow...

DOBBS: No, Janet, I'm dismissing...

MURGUIA: ... for hate speech to be part of this debate...

DOBBS: ... you know...

MURGUIA: ... or to control the network airwaves.

DOBBS: You know that as you speak right now, I have never spoken a hateful word against illegal immigrants.

MURGUIA: You have allowed these folks to have a microphone.

DOBBS: Excuse me.

MURGUIA: You've given hate a microphone by giving them time on this show.

DOBBS: Do we have -- since...

MURGUIA: And you've done it repeatedly. CNN...

DOBBS: OK, would you please put up...

MURGUIA: ... has done it repeatedly.

DOBBS: Oh, come on.

MURGUIA: And in the course of the last three years...

DOBBS: Crimes against Hispanics. Let's put that up. Hate crimes.

MURGUIA: ... the three cable networks have allowed these folks to have the airways...

DOBBS: Here's what you said.

MURGUIA: ... 110 times.

DOBBS: You said on your Web site, 23 percent increase in hate crimes. This is, according to the anti-Hispanic biased crimes in the Federal Bureau...

MURGUIA: According to the FBI and the Department of Justice, yes.

DOBBS: Please, look. In 2005, 522 incidents against Hispanics.

MURGUIA: It's increased by 23 percent in the past three years.

DOBBS: I'm just showing you what the FBI's showing us.

MURGUIA: And 50 percent in California alone.

DOBBS: To 576 against Hispanics...

MURGUIA: There is no coincidence between the extreme rhetoric that the debate has taken and a rise in hate crimes. Words have consequences. And our community is feeling the brunt of that.

DOBBS: Let me show you -- let me show you something.

MURGUIA: Any time you demonize a segment of our society...

DOBBS: No, you're trying to demonize me. And I'm going to show you the reality.

MURGUIA: This isn't about you, Lou. I know this is your...

DOBBS: You took me on and now you got me.

MURGUIA: It's not about -- it's about your networks. It's about your networks holding you and other networks...

DOBBS: I want you to...

MURGUIA: ... accountable.

DOBBS: Oh, please. You can't hold yourself accountable. How could you hold anyone else?

MURGUIA: We are here...

DOBBS: Could you please put this up?

MURGUIA: ... with the facts. Look at the Web site, making a very documented case on this.

DOBBS: Put up what I've said about illegal immigrants in this country, OK? If you would? We're waiting patiently.

MURGUIA: You know...

DOBBS: I think -- let's just go through this here.

MURGUIA: The white hate mail has gone from hate mail to death threats.

DOBBS: If you don't mind -- if you don't mind...

MURGUIA: You know...

DOBBS: By the way, I get a few death threats too. So Janet, you're not the Lone Ranger.

Here's -- may we -- would you do me the service, the kindness...

MURGUIA: I don't have a microphone every night.

DOBBS: Well, you're not going to have one very long here if you don't at least permit me to respond.

MURGUIA: Go ahead.

DOBBS: "I think I'm the only one on this panel" -- this is going back to May 15th, 2006 -- "who's actually worked with migrant workers in the fields, with beans, potatoes, hay in my youth. I know them to be good and decent people."

That was on Larry King.

MURGUIA: Who said that?

DOBBS: I said that. And by the way, I've said I respect illegal immigrants in this country dozens of times, but you don't seem to take note of that. Here's what I said on... MURGUIA: Not when you parade these individuals...

DOBBS: Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me...

MURGUIA: ... who are tied to hate groups and vigilantes...

DOBBS: Oh, come on.

MURGUIA: And when you embrace...

DOBBS: It isn't working, Janet.

MURGUIA: ... vigilante organizations...

DOBBS: We're going to finish this. And then I said...

MURGUIA: When you embrace vigilante organizations, that speaks for itself.

DOBBS: Oh, yes. Well, first of all, they're not a vigilante, they're a volunteer organization. And I think the president...

MURGUIA: Lou, they carry -- they believe in arming themselves.

DOBBS: By the way, it's the Second Amendment, do you believe in it?

MURGUIA: I believe in the Constitution.

DOBBS: They have a right to bear arms.

MURGUIA: But when they go after...

DOBBS: May we complete this?

MURGUIA: ... and hunt down undocumented immigrants -- how do they know who's undocumented...

DOBBS: "I have great respect for the people...

MURGUIA: ... and how do they know who's here legally?

DOBBS: ... who make up...

MURGUIA: You can't tell the difference.

DOBBS: Janet, Janet, just, please...

MURGUIA: They're tracking these folks down in stores...

DOBBS: Just listen. I want to save you as much embarrassment...

MURGUIA: ... not just on the border anymore.

DOBBS: ... as I can.

MURGUIA: Lou...

DOBBS: "I have great respect for the people who make up the preponderance of the illegal alien population in our country, that is Mexican migrant workers." On March 29th, 2006. To Jorge Ramos, who said, "I would love you to meet these illegals that you so called." OK?

I had to tell Jorge, Univision anchor -- unfortunately, partner, there's nothing to be gained here, because I worked with them, I know them, I respect them.

MURGUIA: You don't respect them when you trot out these individuals...

DOBBS: Oh, please.

MURGUIA: ... and when you embrace a vigilante organization.

DOBBS: No, no, you don't respect...

MURGUIA: You don't respect them, Lou, if you're going to continue to put these individuals on the air...

DOBBS: What you're basically saying is my words...

MURGUIA: ... who use this as a platform...

DOBBS: Only the words...

MURGUIA: ... for hate.

DOBBS: ... that you want to use are the ones you'll pay attention to.

MURGUIA: And they're tied to hate groups and vigilante groups.

DOBBS: You won't pay attention to the other words that I use. This broadcast has covered illegal immigration in this country and border security for six years. In that period of time, we have referred to disease three times.

You make a comment on your Web site, that I referred to invaders. You may find it intriguing -- referring to the illegal immigration population in this country -- you may find it intriguing, because we thought we'd go back and look. Invaders has been used six times on this broadcast.

MURGUIA: And we...

DOBBS: Do you know how many...

MURGUIA: You, Glenn Beck, Pat Buchanan -- you're not the only one...

DOBBS: Do you want to listen to what I'm saying?

MURGUIA: I am just making sure you understand...

DOBBS: No. Because I want you to understand...

MURGUIA: ... we documented every piece that you did on this...

DOBBS: But there is, as you say, accountability. And there is truth.

MURGUIA: That's right.

DOBBS: And the reality is it has been used six times on this broadcast. I used it once, and you have used it one-third of the times used on this broadcast.

MURGUIA: You've used these individuals 18 times...

DOBBS: The word "invader" fell from your mouth, not mine.

MURGUIA: You've used these individuals 18 times in the past two years.

DOBBS: Do you want to deal with what I'm saying?

MURGUIA: CNN has used them 48 times.

DOBBS: Or do you want to just keep...

MURGUIA: I'm making the case.

DOBBS: Try it.

MURGUIA: You've used them 18 times.

DOBBS: Invaders, six times.

MURGUIA: We document every time you've done that.

DOBBS: No, we document it. We don't pay attention to your documentation anymore.

MURGUIA: Well, it's hate speech. It's parroting...

DOBBS: Oh, it's hate speech?

MURGUIA: It's parroting hate speech.

DOBBS: OK. Let me tell you what...

MURGUIA: There's no room for hate in this debate.

DOBBS: You're not going to -- you're not...

MURGUIA: There's no room for hate.

DOBBS: There's no room for further distortion.

MURGUIA: We can have an honest policy discussion....

DOBBS: You will not distinguish...

MURGUIA: ... but we need to take hate out of the debate.

DOBBS: You can't have an honest policy discussion.

MURGUIA: We can have an honest policy discussion.

DOBBS: Let's try a couple of things and just see if we can agree on a couple of them, shall we? All right?

MURGUIA: Sure.

DOBBS: We need to secure our borders and our ports for the following reasons. For national security. And the war on terror. To win the war on drugs, because Mexico is the principal source of methamphetamines, heroin, cocaine and marijuana. And to stop illegal immigration. Can we agree?

MURGUIA: We can. This isn't about immigration, though. This is about hate speech and hate groups and vigilante groups, OK?

DOBBS: Oh, I understand. I understand. I know what it's about.

MURGUIA: So we can have...

DOBBS: It's pure political advocacy...

MURGUIA: ... a discussion about immigration policy.

DOBBS: It's fine.

MURGUIA: This isn't about immigration policy.

DOBBS: Do you want to try it?

MURGUIA: This is about hate speech and hate groups.

DOBBS: Do you want to try to go through the list?

MURGUIA: Of?

DOBBS: Of what we might agree on?

MURGUIA: We just talked about the need for comprehensive immigration reform.

DOBBS: And you dismissed it. Sure, if you want to talk about hate speech, let me tell you...

MURGUIA: We agree on the need for comprehensive immigration reform.

DOBBS: If you find -- even though the Congressional Budget Office itself declared that it would deal with only 25 percent of the problem of illegal immigration, would cost the country a fortune.

MURGUIA: What would? Dealing with...

DOBBS: Comprehensive immigration reform legislation that was declined (ph) in the United States Senate on June 28th, 2007.

MURGUIA: We can have -- we can have a separate discussion on immigration.

DOBBS: No, that's what the Congressional Budget...

MURGUIA: But don't dismiss this hate speech and the fact that these individuals that you parade and cloak with an air of respectability are identified and self-avowed vigilante organizations and hate groups.

DOBBS: OK.

MURGUIA: I mean, we can have a separate discussion about immigration. This is about keeping hate and hate speech out of the debate.

DOBBS: You said it wasn't about me. Now, is it about me or it isn't?

MURGUIA: It's about holding you accountable with your networks. And we did cite other networks, MSNBC and Fox.

DOBBS: I don't care about them. I don't care. I care about this broadcast...

MURGUIA: Well, we care about it, because...

DOBBS: ... and me.

MURGUIA: ... this repeated and relentless...

DOBBS: And I care about it because I believe you...

MURGUIA: ... use of these individuals to distort...

DOBBS: ... and your socio-ethnocentric interest group....

MURGUIA: ... immigrants -- oh please, Lou.

DOBBS: ... are trying to drive an agenda that has nothing...

MURGUIA: Ethnocentric -- we're a civil rights organization.

DOBBS: You're an ethnocentric organization...

MURGUIA: ... trying to level the playing field...

DOBBS: You're not trying to level anything.

MURGUIA: I'm as much of an ethnocentric organization as you are part of...

DOBBS: You're trying to...

MURGUIA: ... the media elite, a corporate conglomerate here on CNN.

DOBBS: Really?

MURGUIA: Yes.

DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more.

MURGUIA: Well, OK. Embrace that title. I don't embrace your title that you've given me. We're a civil rights and advocacy organization...

DOBBS: You're going to have to (inaudible) something...

MURGUIA: ... with the record of creating opportunities...

DOBBS: You are now attacking me...

MURGUIA: ... for the Hispanics in this country.

DOBBS: You are attacking people for hate speech...

MURGUIA: We've opened the door for opportunities...

DOBBS: ... and I'm going to fight you with every resource I have, because you have stepped over the line. And you are trying to tear apart the First Amendment. You can't stomach the fact...

MURGUIA: Not at all.

DOBBS: ...that there are different opinions...

MURGUIA: Free speech is one thing; hate speech is another thing.

DOBBS: Should I ask for La Raza to be disbanded because you and I disagree about illegal immigration with me?

MURGUIA: I'm not trying to disband you.

DOBBS: Should you disband?

MURGUIA: I'm saying...

DOBBS: You said, take me out of my chair?

(CROSSTALK)

MURGUIA: If you don't...

DOBBS: If I don't conform to you and your standards.

MURGUIA: If you don't conform to standards that any American would embrace.

DOBBS: La Raza is now an advocacy group trying to drive amnesty for illegal aliens in this country...

MURGUIA: That's your opinion.

DOBBS: No, it's what you're doing.

MURGUIA: No, it's not.

DOBBS: OK, then you tell me. You don't want amnesty?

MURGUIA: We're here talking about hate speech.

DOBBS: You don't want amnesty?

MURGUIA: No.

DOBBS: OK.

MURGUIA: We're supporting...

DOBBS: Then we're good.

MURGUIA: We have supported taking deliberate steps to allow for an earned citizenship pathway for the folks who are here. We need to address the issue of immigration.

But today, Lou, this is about taking hate speech and representatives of hate groups...

DOBBS: No, you're trying to stifle speech.

MURGUIA: ... and vigilante...

DOBBS: You're trying to stifle speech.

MURGUIA: Absolutely not. There is a line that has been crossed...

DOBBS: And you know...

MURGUIA: ... and we know when that line is crossed, Lou...

DOBBS: You do.

MURGUIA: We've seen it crossed before.

DOBBS: You are now the standard bearer for truth and free speech in this country?

MURGUIA: We need to hold networks accountable.

DOBBS: I thought you were a civil rights -- you need to hold yourself accountable.

MURGUIA: As a civil rights organization...

DOBBS: You've got half the Hispanic kids in this country almost dropping out of high school.

MURGUIA: And we can work on agendas to help...

DOBBS: You are -- and you're going -- and what are you doing?

MURGUIA: ... address that, but we can't, because every day we're tarred and feathered...

DOBBS: What you are doing -- you're working on illegal immigration...

MURGUIA: ... with this issue, and you contribute to that.

DOBBS: Janet Murguia, you have contributed to, to me, just a reprehensible approach on the part of any organization. You've joined the Southern Poverty Law Center, which is now nothing more than an advocacy and fund-raising organization. I think you are the one who should be held accountable.

MURGUIA: We are going to hold you accountable with the networks and we're going to hold...

DOBBS: And we're going to hold you accountable as well.

MURGUIA: ... Glenn Beck accountable, we're going to hold...

DOBBS: You can hold everybody accountable.

MURGUIA: ... all those individuals who...

DOBBS: The reality is, you can't stand the fact that we have free speech in this country, that you can be opposed and opposed effectively...

MURGUIA: Free speech is one thing...

DOBBS: ... by people who care about reason...

MURGUIA: ... hate speech is another, Lou.

DOBBS: ... in this country. Oh, come on.

MURGUIA: We won't tolerate hate speech.

DOBBS: You won't tolerate it?

MURGUIA: That's right.

DOBBS: Neither will I.

MURGUIA: OK.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. MURGUIA: Thanks.

DOBBS: Janet Murguia.

Still ahead, three top political analysts join me. We'll have the latest on the presidential campaign. Stay with us and I just want to say, Janet Murguia, you're welcome back any time to continue this discussion. Anyone who wants to advocate on the basis -- we delight in having you here.

MURGUIA: Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political newspaper analysts in the country. Pulitzer Prize winning columnist "New York Daily News," Michael Goodwin; Michael, good to have you with us. And Keith Richburg. He is New York Bureau Chief, "Washington Post." Keith, good to have you. Jonathan Martin, Politico.com, good to have you with us, Jonathan. The day is upon us, Keith. Who wins tomorrow. Is it all resolved?

KEITH RICHBURG, WASHINGTON POST: One thing we learned in this season, don't predict anything. The polls have always been wrong.

DOBBS: Notice we blame it on the polls.

RICHBURG: Blame it on the polls.

DOBBS: Political journalists were not wrong.

RICHBURG: We will say the democratic race will probably continue a while. They will probably come out somewhere in parity unless there is a tidal wave we're not seeing, and the republicans, looks like it could be wrapped up but look for California to have surprises. Always leave an escape hatch.

MICHAEL GOODWIN, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: I was going to leave myself the same way. I believe McCain certainly looks as though he's going to not mathematically seal the deal tomorrow but some very close to it. California though is kind of shaky for him. Southern California republicans send to be more conservative. Romney has been on the air there a long time. I think California could surprise him.

Democrats, one of your numbers earlier about new registered democrats in California could -- you have to assume, those registering late is probably an Obama phenomenon. So Obama could surprise people in California.

DOBBS: Well Jonathan, I see you nodding your head so let's move to another issue.

JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO.COM: I agree. DOBBS: The lineup today, Maria Shriver, Oprah Winfrey, Caroline Kennedy, Michelle Obama, emotional Hillary in Connecticut, women are really asserting themselves in this campaign in a way that I think perhaps was unexpected. It's a campaign in which the Edmund Musky tear factor has been removed as a consideration, has it not?

MARTIN: It seems like it. In New Hampshire, it actually helped her the day before the primary. There's no question about that. The support of Shriver yesterday was a huge boost for Obama and Obama's wife is his secret weapon. Bill Clinton gets all the attention, Michelle Obama, negotiation can tell you who have seen her, is quite a force on the campaign trail.

GOODWIN: Throughout the democratic process, one of the things fascinating, you go back to Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, I think in Nevada or I'm sorry, South Carolina, 61 percent of the democratic vote was female. 59 percent in Nevada, 56/57 percent in New Hampshire and Iowa, women are really turning outs for democrats

DOBBS: When people tell us it's the evangelicals, African American males. It's going to Roman Catholic males, it's really women coast-to-coast and Latino vote as well?

MARTIN: Working class especially for Hillary saved her in New Hampshire. Getting the blue collar votes. That's her safety valve.

DOBBS: You know as we talk about blue collar voters in various states and the way in which you folks slice and dice the elements, demographic elements, it's really not the same world it was. Blue collar is really sort of a pink collar, blue-and-white together.

GOODWIN: And Hillary has green collars now.

DOBBS: There are only a few hundred of those in this country.

RICHBURG: It's not the same world. What Barack Obama is trying to do is transcend those worlds. He's trying to say vote for me whether you're blue collar, Latino, black, a woman or whatever, He's trying to transcend that and Hillary Clinton's more establishment campaign is divide the electorate up.

DOBBS: That sounds vaguely editorial.

You're saying he's transcendental.

RICHBURG: He's trying

DOBBS: Is that why he's pandering to Latinos and Senator Clinton is pandering to Latino?

RICHBURG: He's saying we're all in this together.

GOODWIN: He's focusing on them because he's not been doing well on them.

DOBBS: I'm not doing well with them and I can move on. GOODWIN: That's why you won't be elected.

MARTIN: To be fair here, there's plenty of pandering going on here. It's not just Obama, it's certainly Clinton, and obviously on the republican side, too.

DOBBS: Well, the pandering in this case, the reason why I react Keith to what you're saying, we're watching group and identity politics, in my judgment, at it if not at its worst, certainly at its all time height. It hasn't receded at all. That's sort of a disgusting quality to me and I think other voters, particularly independent voters who really are very tired of people not representing the middle class in this country, representing the majority.

But I think -- and I do make the case often -- that I think the greatest, greatest crisis in this country right now is that the will of the majority is not being reflected in our government, and the fact is, that's a fundamental tenet of any democracy.

RICHBURG: Well, that's precisely what Barack Obama is trying to make as his argument, that we shouldn't be divided by this way, we should just be the United States of America...

DOBBS: But meanwhile, let's get divided...

RICHBURG: Meanwhile, let's get divided because that's what the other campaign is doing.

(CROSSTALK)

GOODWIN: Historically, I mean, it's fascinating. Historically, you've always had two white males doing this. And now you've got an African-American man and a white woman doing it. And so I think it is more pronounced. But it was always there anyway.

DOBBS: Proving they can be just as tedious politicians as any white male.

MARTIN: Politics is politics, you know.

RICHBURG: And also, to get elected, he has to go out and get a broader -- he can't get elected by African-Americans alone.

DOBBS: Well, the fact, I would hope, that no one could get elected by one group alone, but I would hope that we could sort of move beyond this partisan nonsense -- not this year, obviously.

MARTIN: Well, if it's Obama and McCain in the fall, I think you're going to see a lot of sort of cross-pollination, more so than you will with Clinton or Romney. I think both of them really want to reach across party lines.

DOBBS: Jonathan cannot forecast what will happen tomorrow in the primaries, but he's got a handle on what (inaudible) McCain and Obama.

Jonathan, thank you very much.

MARTIN: Thank you, Lou.

84 percent of you in responding to our poll believe these presidential candidates of both parties are motivated to run out of -- get ready -- political ambition. Only 16 percent say you believe they are motivated by a sense of national service, wherein lies perhaps a national problem.

Stay with us for a special edition of "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: Independents Day, Awakening the American Spirit," starting right now.

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