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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Make or Break Debate Showdown for Clinton and Obama; Senator McCain Rips "The New York Times"; Independents key Voters in Texas Primary
Aired February 21, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf.
Tonight Senators Clinton and Obama one hour away from a pivotal debate in this campaign. Senator McCain today blasting "The New York Times" after the paper reported he had an improper relationship with a lobbyist. We'll have all of that, all the day's news and we'll be telling you about some success stories, all of that and much more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: news, debate, and opinion for Thursday, February 21. Live from New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Senators Obama and Clinton face-off in less than one hour right here on CNN for what could be a make or break debate for Senator Clinton. The debate could be one of the last chances for Clinton to halt Obama's run before the next round of primaries. It's also an opportunity for the candidates to address a vital issue they have been ignoring, the seething anger in Texas over the Trans-Texas Corridor, the so-called NAFTA superhighway.
Meanwhile, Senator John McCain today insisting there's absolutely nothing improper about a relationship he had with a lobbyist eight years ago. McCain saying "The New York Times" report suggesting he gave that lobbyist special treatment is untrue. We have extensive coverage of the presidential campaign tonight, of course.
And we begin with Jessica Yellin who is at the site of tonight's debate, the University of Texas in Austin -- Jessica?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is a must win state for Senator Clinton. Texas is and tonight could be her last opportunity to turn her campaign around and stop Barack Obama's momentum.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN (voice-over): He started his day touring the home of the Texas Longhorns.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have got to rub your horns right across there, huh? Like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
OBAMA: I get you. Yes, it's not a game. (INAUDIBLE) YELLIN: She was on the job further south.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is a difference between rhetoric and reality. The reality of the people here in Webb County and Laredo is what I'm focused on.
YELLIN: For her, an uphill fight. Obama who has won 11 contests in a row and raised almost three times as much money as she did last month. The stakes are as high as they can be for Clinton, her husband summed up why.
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If she wins in Texas and Ohio, I think she will be the nominee. If you don't deliver for her, I don't think she can be. It's all on you.
YELLIN: Tonight's debate could be a turning point. He has more to lose and the key is to avoid a stumble like this.
OBAMA: You're likable enough.
H. CLINTON: Thank you so much.
(LAUGHTER)
YELLIN: It helps stir sympathy for Clinton who won the New Hampshire primary three days later. She has to stop the hemorrhaging avoid a sniping match like this.
H. CLINTON: Your contributor (INAUDIBLE) and his slum landlord business and inner city Chicago.
YELLIN: It backfired and he trounced her in the South Carolina primary five days later. What can Clinton do? Renew her appeal to her base, women, Hispanics and blue collar voters who have been defecting to Obama. She is trying with a more personal approach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are often over worked, under paid and sometimes overlooked. She understands. She's worked the night shift, too.
YELLIN: And she must try to convince voters that with just 69 delegates separating the two, this race is not over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN: Lou, bottom line, the key for Senator Clinton tonight is to convince voters to scrutinize Obama's case for the presidency, to persuade them that as she put it in the past he is all hat and no cattle and do it without seeming negative. On the other side, the challenge for Barack Obama is to just not mess up -- Lou?
DOBBS: All right. Jessica, thank you very much. Jessica Yellin from Austin, Texas, the site of tonight's debate there at the University of Texas at Austin.
The latest opinion polls showing Senators Obama and Clinton are in fact in a statistical dead heat in Texas. A CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll taken before Obama's victories in Wisconsin and Hawaii gave Clinton 50 percent, Obama 48 percent. The difference between them is well within the margin of error and as Jessica Yellin just said, the delegates separating these two, frankly, minuscule.
Joining me now for more on tonight's debate between Obama and Clinton our senior political correspondent Candy Crowley who's in Austin.
Candy, do you expect Senator Clinton to a lot more aggressive than she's been against Senator Obama in the debate tonight?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it depends on your definition of aggressive. Here's her box. She does need to go after him because he's the front-runner. That's what you do when you're behind. You have to find some way to nick him up and to pull down those poll numbers.
On the other hand, if she goes after him too aggressively, too negatively, it looks like the same old Washington. And that's what he's been campaigning against and found so much success doing, so she can't look like just another politician, but she has to go after him, so they call it in the Clinton campaign compare and contrast, so they want her to talk about policies. Here's where he says this. Here's where I say that, that kind of thing, but she's got to watch that line, Lou.
DOBBS: It's an interesting line. In fact, she's got to -- she's got to do some severe damage tonight. Where do you believe Senator Obama is most vulnerable?
CROWLEY: Well, you know, since they last met, a couple of things have come up. You know his relationship to a real estate developer who's now in jail. And what that developer did or didn't do to help Barack Obama secure a Chicago home. We had the whole episode about what the Clinton campaign called plagiarism, the borrowing, if you will, from the Obama campaign side of words from an Obama friend.
So we have had a number of things that have come up that I know the Clinton campaign is hoping will come up in this debate. They don't think she needs to bring that up. There has always been the feeling inside the Clinton campaign that Obama has not been scrutinized. That she has been always the one under the spotlight and that he's the one that really needs to be scrutinized and that is part of their plan basically going forward is the feeling that now that Barack Obama is looking like he is walking away with this, that people will look at his record more closely and that will really bring down part of this -- his high-flying campaign.
DOBBS: That really speaks to the ineffectiveness and the clumsiness of the Clinton campaign as well there, doesn't it? Is it too much for the senator to expect her fortunes to reverse tonight?
CROWLEY: Well, you know, you and I have seen debates in the past. I mean, history is littered with them of debate moments that have changed the dynamic of a campaign. But there have been other debates as you know that didn't change much. But, you know there can come a moment -- remember George Bush the dad looking at his watch, looked like he was like too impatient actually to be talking to the American people about anything.
That kind of thing that makes someone look out of touch, so lots of things can happen. But it still is difficult. Barack Obama you know is a smart guy, a very smart guy. He has not had any major stumbles in these but you have to know that Hillary Clinton in the debates has always been the one with her, you know, masterful understanding of policy and the details of it has always done very well in these debates and that's why the Clinton campaign has been pushing so hard to have more of them.
DOBBS: All right. Well, one thing we need is more debates, I believe. Candy, thank you very much. Candy Crowley from the site of tonight's debate in Austin, Texas.
Republican front-runner, Senator McCain, today ripped "The New York Times" after the paper reported he had an impropriate relationship with a lobbyist. McCain said that report is simply not true and the lobbyist's employer accusing "The New York Times" of character assassination. Senator McCain calling it a smear. "The Times" standing by its story saying the story speaks for itself.
Dana Bash with the McCain campaign reports for us now from Toledo, Ohio -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, when John McCain first ran for president eight years ago he ran on a promise to clean up corruption and impropriety in politics just like he is now. That's why a story suggesting McCain is part of the problem in Washington is a huge problem for his campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): With his wife by his side, a subdued John McCain issued an unequivocal denial.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm very disappointed in "The New York Times" piece. It is not true.
BASH: That emphatic not true was meant for every suggestion in this lengthy article, first that he had a romantic relationship with lobbyist Vicki Iseman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator, can you describe the relationship with Vicki Iseman?
J. MCCAIN: Friends, seen her on occasions, particularly at receptions and in fund-raisers and appearances before the committee.
BASH: On that, an assist from Mrs. McCain.
CINDY MCCAIN, WIFE OF JOHN MCCAIN: My children and I not only trust my husband but know that he would never do anything to not only disappoint our family but disappoint the people of America. BASH: Then, the charge that McCain used his powerful position on the Senate Commerce Committee to help Iseman's corporate clients.
J. MCCAIN: At no time have I ever done anything that would betray the public trust nor make a decision which in any way would not be in the public interest and would favor any one or any organization.
BASH: "The Times" also says eight years ago during McCain's first presidential run his advisers were so concerned about his relationship with Iseman they confronted both and tried to block her access, again, flat denial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) nobody in your campaign said, Senator, she's a problem. Don't deal with her.
J. MCCAIN: No. No.
BASH: The one "Times" source to go on the record is McCain's former top political adviser John Weaver. He confirms to CNN he was worried and did confront Iseman, but insists it wasn't about a romantic relationship, rather that Iseman was spreading word quote, "around town" that McCain helps her lobbying clients, something Weaver said would undermine McCain's reformer campaign.
My concern wasn't about anything John had done, it was about her comments. It was about access she claimed to have had", Weaver told CNN. McCain insists he knew nothing about that.
J. MCCAIN: I never discussed it with John Weaver. And so, as far as I know, there was no necessity for it but that's -- that's a judgment that he made.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Iseman's lobbying firm issued a statement calling the story, "fantasies of a disgruntled former campaign employee," saying it is without foundation or merit. As for the McCain camp, they're actually relishing in this controversy because it allows the candidate who's trying to court conservatives to pick a fight with one of their biggest enemies and that's "The New York Times." McCain's campaign manager even issued a fund-raising letter calling on donors to help them fight the, "liberal establishment" -- Lou?
DOBBS: And of course we should add Weaver let go by the McCain campaign last summer. Dana Bash reporting from Toledo, Ohio. We'll have a lot more on the confrontation between Senator McCain and "The New York Times" later here. Did the "The New York Times" go too far? Did it have enough to go to press? Did "The Times" simply practice good journalism? Two of the country's leading authorities on the media join me here later.
Also tonight, the economic downturn crushing our middle class. Christine Romans will have the report for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, look no further than your local car-repo lot for signs that America's middle class is in distress. Those lots are full. Car repossessions are rising by double digits -- Lou.
DOBBS: Christine, thanks. We're looking forward to your report.
Also, Independent voters could play a decisive role in the biggest remaining primary. We'll have a special report for you.
And the U.S. Navy shoots down a disabled spy satellite. Incredibly now the Pentagon appears to be exceeding to a Chinese demand to share information about the shoot down. We'll have the story about how the military sometimes snatches defeat from the jaws of victory. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Rioters today broke into the U.S. Embassy in the Serbian capital of Belgrade. At least one person is dead. The Serbs protesting against Kosovo's recent declaration of independence with U.S. support. The State Department confirmed that a burned body has been found inside the U.S. Embassy compound. A spokesman said the victim appears to be one of the rioters.
No diplomatic staff were in the Embassy at the time. The White House expressing its quote, "concern and displeasure", end quote, to the Serbian government. Kosovo declaring its independence from Serbia Sunday, a move supported of course by the United States and major European nations.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates today focusing on the political impact of the U.S. Navy's successful shoot down of a disabled spy satellite over the Pacific Ocean. Secretary Gates said the Pentagon is prepared to share some information about that shoot down with communist China. This is the first time a sea-base (ph) missile has been used to destroy a satellite. Jamie McIntyre has the report from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It took just three minutes for the SM-3 missile to lift off the USS Lake Erie and launch its sophisticated kill vehicle directly into the path of the dud satellite 150 miles above the Pacific Ocean. From the ground, it looked like a bull's eye, a direct hit on the fuel tank. The sizable explosion along with a spectral analysis of the resulting vapor cloud indicates the thousand pounds of potentially dangerous hydrazine was dispersed harmlessly in space.
GEN. JAMES CARTWRIGHT, JOINT CHIEFS VICE CHMN.: Right at high definition imagery that we have indicates that we hit the spacecraft right in the area of the tank.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon is still analyzing the data on the fuel tank, but there is little question the satellite itself was pulverized. No fragments have been tracked that are any bigger than a football and so far most of the debris seems to be burning up in the atmosphere posing no hazard to the people on earth. The Pentagon argues the unprecedented shoot down was not intended as a warning to potential adversaries and that the U.S. has no plans to field satellite killing weapons.
CARTWRIGHT: Will I be able to convince everybody that that's the case? No. But at the end of the day, it would have been in our judgment irresponsible to try not -- to not try to remove some of this risk.
MCINTYRE: Count among the unconvinced, Russia and China. Moscow called the shoot down an attempt to move the arms race into space and China despite conducting its own anti-satellite test last year...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MCINTYRE: ... warned about possible harm. It called for more answers from the U.S.
On a stopover at the U.S. Pacific command in Hawaii, Defense Secretary Robert Gates responded that the U.S. already provided a lot of information before the shoot down and is prepared to do more in the spirit of complete transparency.
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We certainly are prepared to share with whatever appropriately we can.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now the Pentagon has argued all along that this shoot down was not just target practice for missile defenses, but flush with this success, Defense Secretary Gates says he believes that the questions about whether the technology works have been answered -- Lou?
DOBBS: Well indeed, they have. What hasn't been answered is why this administration continues to play the fool for communist China. Every -- every request for information and transparency from the United States to the government of China has been rebuffed and yet here after a successful demonstration of U.S. technology and fire power, the secretary of defense says he will accommodate the Chinese rather than tell them frankly go to hell. What is that about?
MCINTYRE: I wouldn't read too much into what Secretary Gates said. First of all he said was look, this was not a secret operation unlike when China shot down a satellite last year and did it completely by surprise and by the way left hundreds of thousands of pieces of space junk in orbit. The U.S. said right up front what it was doing. They're trying to be transparent about what this operation was about.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Again, my question would be, Jamie, why would they care?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Why would they even begin to share information with the -- any -- whether it is the Russian government or the communist Chinese government? MCINTYRE: They're not giving away secret, classified information. What they're trying to do is -- this is the behavior that the United States would expect to get from other countries including China and Russia if they're going to conduct this kind of operation, so they're trying to lead by example and what Gates was simply saying was look, we gave them a lot of information about what we're doing.
If there's some more we can share, we're happy to do that but they're not talking about giving away sensitive missile technology. What they're saying is trying to goad China into being more transparent in how it operates.
DOBBS: And how's that working so far?
MCINTYRE: Well not too good.
DOBBS: OK. Jamie, thank you as always and our compliments to the U.S. Navy for a highly successful mission, I think we can safely say tonight with some pride, go Navy.
MCINTYRE: It was an amazing feat.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
Well there was something of a red storm last night that the Pentagon wasn't concerned about. Sky watchers treated to a total lunar eclipse. That eclipse giving the moon a reddish tint as the moon passed into the earth's shadow blocked from the direct rays of the sun. The total eclipse lasted almost an hour. It was absolutely wonderful. The next total lunar eclipse, by the way, will occur in 2010.
Bad weather forced a helicopter carrying three senators to make an emergency landing today in the mountains of Afghanistan. Senators John Kerry, Joe Biden and Chuck Hagel were on board at the time. They were not injured. The helicopter landed in a field during a snowstorm. The U.S. military evacuated those senators and their aides by land to Bagram Air Base, so they later continued on to the next scheduled stop, that in Ankara, Turkey. The senators are on a trip including stops in India, Turkey and Pakistan to observe elections.
And coming up here next, "The New York Times" raising questions about Senator McCain's previous relationship with a lobbyist. Did the newspaper cross the line between journalism and tabloid journalism? We'll discuss that with two of the country's leading media watch dogs.
And Independents could well cast the deciding votes in the must- win Texas primary. We'll have that report and a great deal more coming up here next. Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well Senators Obama and Clinton square off in just over half an hour right here on CNN for one of the final debates before the critical primaries in Texas and Ohio, that coming up on March 4th. Polls show the candidates are now in a virtual tie and in the states' open primary, Independent voters will have a voice. But will the candidates be listening? You better believe it.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
H. CLINTON: Please join with me and let's make history together.
OBAMA: And if you will stand with me, Texas, if you will vote for me, Texas.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Texas primary voters are not constrained by party affiliation. Republicans can request a Democratic ballot and vice versa. About 40 percent of the state's voters identify themselves as Independents. So in the hotly-contested Texas Democratic primary, Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are both emphasizing independent themes.
OBAMA: I believe in capitalism. I believe in the free market. I believe in entrepreneurial opportunity. But when a CEO is making more in 10 minutes than an ordinary worker's making in an entire year, and the CEO gets the tax break and the worker gets nothing, something is wrong. Something has to change.
WIAN: By a wide margin, Texas voters of both parties say the economy is the most important issue in this year's election.
H. CLINTON: When I am president, we will have an energy policy that makes us more secure and puts people to work.
WIAN: Both candidates are also trying to attract Latino voters who make up about one quarter of the Texas electorate, Obama with his familiar bilingual homage to United Farm Workers founder Caesar Chavez.
OBAMA: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
WIAN: And Clinton with reminders she once helped register Latino voters alongside LARAZA (ph), the country's biggest Latino organization and promises for what she calls comprehensive immigration reform.
H. CLINTON: We will strengthen our border security and we will provide a path to legalization for those who are here who are willing to pay a fine and willing to pay back taxes and willing to learn English...
WIAN: In the meantime, both candidates are practicing their Spanish.
H. CLINTON: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) that is right. Yes, we can.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WIAN: Tonight's debate will be broadcast in English here on CNN and in Spanish on Univision -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well that sounds like a plan and a neat trick. How in the world are they going to do that?
WIAN: I know, I know.
DOBBS: The reality is that these two are pandering as fast and as furious and as frequently as they possibly can to the Latino population in the state of Texas. And it doesn't seem to have occurred to either of them that the so-called Hispanic-American in Texas is not some sort of monolith that you can simply buy with favors for illegal aliens.
WIAN: Yes. And it seems that their positions on illegal immigration, the main issue that they believe is important to Latino voters in Texas, there is very little difference between their two strategies on how to deal with the illegal immigration crisis in this country. They both say they want to secure the border, but at the same time, they say they want to give amnesty to millions of illegal aliens already in this country, Lou.
DOBBS: Yes. I think that probably we could say the basic difference between these two on comprehensive illegal -- comprehensive immigration reform, Casey, maybe we can say it this way. Senator Obama would have illegal aliens drive to their amnesty with brand new drivers' licenses issued in their states. Casey, thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Time now for some of your thoughts and we'd like you to respond to our poll tonight. The question is: Do you believe the candidates should clearly state whether they support the NAFTA superhighway that will run through about 4,000 miles of Texas during the course of tonight's debate in Texas? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
Thousands of you are e-mailing us your opinions about that NAFTA superhighway and not just from Texas. Pat in California said: "Lou, the saying 'if Texas goes, so does the rest of the country' rings true regarding the NAFTA superhighway. All of us should be outraged."
Ed in California: "Lou, I could support the NAFTA superhighway on one condition. It would have to bisect George W. Bush's Texas home." That's an interesting thought.
And by the way, it was just a year ago I believe that the Texas officials were saying there was no such thing as a NAFTA superhighway contemplated. No such thing as a Tans-Texas Corridor that we had to worry about. Well, looks like we not only have a problem with our federal government but perhaps with the state government of Texas, as well.
We'll have more of your thoughts here later in the broadcast. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book "Independents Day: Awakening the American Spirit". Up next, "The New York Times" accused of a smear against Senator McCain, two of the country's leading authorities on the media will be here to give us their assessment.
Also, so-called super delegates not voters could have the final say in the race between Senators Obama and Clinton. Two of those super delegates, one from Mr. Obama's side and one from Mrs. Clinton's side will be here.
And a CNN presidential debate between Obama and Clinton begins in Austin, Texas, in just little over a half hour. We'll tell you what's at stake, who has the best chance of winning, talking with some of the very best political analysts in the nation.
Stay with us. We're coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "The New York Times" and Senator McCain have squared off against each other over a "Times" report questioning McCain's relationship with a lobbyist some eight years ago. The senator saying he is disappointed in "The New York Times" piece. He says it's not true. The "Times," for its part, stands by its story.
Joining me now, Mike Hoyt. He's executive editor of the "Columbia Journalism Review."
Mike, good to you with us.
And Howard Kurtz, media reporter, "Washington Post," host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES."
Howard, good to have you here.
Let's begin, Mike, with you. You believe that this was a fair piece and meets all the precepts and tenets of journalism one would expect of "The New York Times?"
MIKE HOYT, COLUMBIA JOURNALISM REVIEW: I think it was a close call. I think it look a long time to get into print and I think the reason for that is that they were pushing and pulling and trying to make it better and I think that's what happens in investigative pieces. I think it's a close call. I mean, there's these two areas, proving a quid pro quo is really difficult and --
DOBBS: Do you think they did that?
HOTY: Do I think -- yeas. I think in one case, I think it looked -- this is a story essentially about -- whether he has a pattern of getting too close to people who want things from him and at least in one case, the Paxson case, it looks like he did something for her that was on the edge.
DOBBS: Do you agree with that, Howard?
HOWARD KURTZ, CNN HOST: Well I think the "Times" story demonstrates that remember this is a decade ago that McCain aides at the time were concerned about at least the appearance of John McCain's close relationship with this Washington lobbyist, Vicki Iseman, and went so far as to meet with her and tell her to stay away from the senator.
What the "Times" piece did not prove and doesn't claim to have proven and in fact has been denied by both parties was that there was any kind of romantic or illicit relationship. And so to throw that out there and have us all be talking about it now is perhaps something I wouldn't have done.
DOBBS: Yes. And I'll tell you, we're not doing it on this broadcast because I don't -- as other broadcasters tell you today have on various networks, the reality here to me it seems to set off a bit of a firestorm. If "The New York Times," Mike, did not endorse Senator McCain, I would swear they were trying to absolutely harpoon his candidacy.
HOYT: Well I don't think you can get into their motives. I mean, they're journalists and I think they have a record of honorable journalism. There are people who are going to disbelieve anything they say when they attack their guy, but I don't believe that. I mean, I think Howie is right. I think they did not say that this was an affair. It is not about an affair.
DOBBS: But listen to what you said. Even though that was not alleged by "The New York Times," you have just -- you have now just brought it up. And it was remarkable to me, Howie, that we are in this sort of situation and one wonders about - I know that we as journalists don't worry about the impact of our reporting nor are we supposed to. But it is really quite a salacious impact from a story that as you and Mike suggest, you know, from a news organization, with a rich, strong and respected heritage. I mean, it is stunning to me.
KURTZ: Well, some people have questioned, Lou, why "The New York Times" didn't publish this if they thought it was a solid story last December when its team of reporters was working on it. The editor of "The New York Times" Bill Keller told me today that he didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the political calendar. They were continuing to work on this, try to confirm and publish this story when it was ready.
I do think we have to recognize that whatever the "Times" liberal editorial page does, endorsing McCain and Hillary Clinton, that is very different from what the journalists in the newsroom do.
HOYT: I think people would have worried about the timing whenever it was published. If it was published during the primaries, they would have screamed even louder. In a way, this is the least.
DOBBS: Yes. I think Bill Keller - I'm going to throw this out. I think Bill Keller is in a heck of a poor position for an editor. He had four of his top reporters working this story. He was under pressure to publish it. He's under pressure not to publish it obviously, from the McCain people. It is -- it is a tough as you say, Mike, tough journalistic call. In the end, do you think it's the correct call?
HOYT: He has a tough job and I think it was a tough call. I do think it was the right call. I think we have a right to know about these candidates. You know, there's nothing more sensitive than a marriage. And there's nothing tougher to prove than quid pro quo. When you put those together, when you have a staff that confronted him multiple times, it adds up.
KURTZ: The one part of this, Lou, that is the most legitimate, I think most people would agree would be questions about whether or not Senator McCain did any legislative favors for the clients of this lobbyist who is by his own acknowledgement, his friend. The problem with that is those stories, those letters he wrote to the FCC, were reported eight and nine years ago so that part of story is not new. It's the more salacious aspect that has obviously catapulted it to the front of the campaign today.
DOBBS: And it is that salacious by inference aspect of this reporting that I have the most trouble with because the issue - frankly, I'm one of those - I'll say it straight out. I'd love to hear what you guys think. On this broadcast, we are not getting into the sex lives and the personal lives of candidates or public officials. It is just not going to happen here.
Do you think that's an appropriate view to take in this day and age, Howie?
KURTZ: Well, personally, I don't care what politicians in their private lives unless it has some impact on their public performance and that certainly was true with Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky because she was a White House intern. If we knew for a fact, which we don't and I say again - both people have denied it. The "Times" doesn't have to evidence to the contrary.
But if we knew that there was some sort of a very personal relationship between John McCain and this lobbyist and he was doing -- writing letters to the government regulators for her clients, then that would fit my definition of not just being about his private life but about his public performance.
DOBBS: But as you heard Howie, he put it in the hypothetical.
HOYT: It is not a sex story and it is a sex story.
DOBBS: Scaring me, Mike, scaring me.
HOYT: You can't extricate it. I think we have a right to look at the lives of these people and to go back in time.
DOBBS: I think we have a right but I wonder about our responsibility.
HOTY: And the -- a major part of this man's story is his redemption after the Keating Five incident getting too close to somebody that wanted something from him and he asked regulators to do things that he shouldn't have asked and it was a huge deal and it was wrong and he admits it and the story is one of redemption since then. And this story, it too, is an echo of that. It doesn't rise to that level, but it's echo of that. So I think it's a legitimate thing for voters to put into their mix.
KURTZ: It's so interesting, John McCain as everyone knows has a very friendly relationship with reporters that ride around on his Straight Talk Express, but today his team went after the "Times" very hard, accusing it of being a third rate tabloid and so forth. So that romance may have soured a little bit today, Lou.
DOBBS: I guess the good news is he and I had a lousy relationship to begin with. So I have nothing to lose. Mike, thank you very much. Howie, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Coming up next, will the Democratic Party's power elite, the so called superdelegates decide the party's nominee? We'll hear from two superdelegates, one supporting Obama, one supporting Clinton next.
And 25 minutes, just a little -- around that, Clinton and Obama will face-off in the final debate before the critically important Texas primary. Up next, three of the nation's leading political analysts join me. Stay with me, we're coming right back. It's just going to get better and better.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, Senator Obama and Senator Clinton both a long ways from the 2,025 delegates needed to cinch their party's nomination. That means superdelegates could have a final say on the Democratic nominee. Joining me now, two of those superdelegates, Robert Zimmerman, Democratic National Committeeman, supporting Senator Clinton and a LOU DOBBS TONIGHT contributor, we're proud to say.
And James Zogby, a member of the DNC Executive Committee supporting Senator Barack Obama.
Not yet tonight a LOU DOBBS TONIGHT contributor, but we can fix that, Jim. You have got to be feeling pretty good about going into tonight's debate, 10 straight wins. Give us first your assessment of what you think will happen tonight.
JAMES ZOGBY, OBAMA SUPPORTER: Well, I think it will be tough and I think it will be sharp and I think Senator Obama will be up to the task. He's been great at defining issues not only for his campaign I think but for the campaign in general. And no doubt there'll be an effort to define sharp differences. But he's up to the test. I think he'll be clear on the issues affecting the economy, on foreign policy. He's been, I think, marvelous in defining clear differences between -
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, CLINTON SUPPORTER: Well I think James is valid in that he's very good at defining issues, he's just not good at offering solutions to the issues.
ZOGBY: I don't think that's true.
ZIMMERMAN: The debate is going to be ultimately who can provide the best solutions to the visions and the best results for these visions we're talking about.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, we're just showing right now video of Senator Obama arriving just a few moments ago there at the University of Texas. Let me go to -- and Senator Clinton right now. These are now live pictures. Senator Clinton showing up. The debate to start in just about 17 minutes. I can feel the tension mounting from all the way up here in New York down there in Austin, Texas.
And -- but I do want to turn to the issue of superdelegates and the role of the two gentlemen will play in the nomination process here. Jim, the idea that just about 70 delegates, 70 delegates now separate the two -- it's clear that no matter what happens here, just about no matter what happens, we're not going to see a majority. Superdelegates are going to have the loudest voice at the end of this in determining who the nominee will be.
Do you believe that that should be free will or do you think they should follow the majority -- the delegate who -- the -- let me try this all over again. The candidate who has the greatest number of votes?
ZOGBY: Lou, it's actually about 160 delegates on the pledged elected side that separate the two. The 70 is when you throw in some of the superdelegates but I think it is a combination of the two. Listen, the superdelegates are good, intelligent, very representative people in America. The fact is that they are not going to put themselves in a position of overturning the will of the people. I've already --
DOBBS: Wait a minute. That's what I want to understand here. And then I want to turn to Robert. How do you know what the will of the people is if neither one has achieved a majority that's necessary, the number of delegates necessary to reach that level?
ZOGBY: Right now Senator Obama is up around 900,000 votes in terms of voters cast and 160 delegates in terms of delegates elected. At the same time -- let me finish, Bob.
DOBBS: It wasn't Bob, it was Lou. I'm the one getting nervous about the time.
ZOGBY: You will have almost half of them have not committed. They're not going to commit at all. I don't think they're going to commit until they get a closer to the convention and what they're going to do --
ZIMMERMAN: This is the most gratified decision.
DOBBS: I have to interrupt you now because I've got to give Robert a little time here.
ZIMMERMAN: OK. You know, this is the over reported story in the political cycle. I have to tell you the notion that superdelegates are going to fly into the convention and make the decision, it's a sort of a comic book version of what's going to happen. Personally I think one of two is going to emerge in the month of March and that person is going to ultimately coalesce the momentum and the support. But the point here is the Obama and Clinton campaigns both believe superdelegates should use their independent judgment and make the best evaluation as to the best candidate and who would be the best president. Also important to remember Lou, almost all of the superdelegates are elected individuals. Either elected through serving in the House and Senate or through their political parties.
DOBBS: OK. Now, if we look at Michigan and Florida --
ZIMMERMAN: That is right.
DOBBS: Fewer than 300,000 votes separate these two candidates. Should those delegates be counted?
ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely. You can't have a viable Democratic nominee unless you're going to include those delegates.
DOBBS: Jim, you've got the last word here.
ZOGBY: Yes. Simply Michigan and Florida are not going to count. They're not going to count because the rules were very clear on that. There was no one on the ballot except for Senator Clinton in Michigan.
(CROSSTALK)
ZOGBY: And I know Democrats in Michigan who ended up voting for McCain because they wanted -- for Romney because they wanted to defeat McCain. It simply would not be fair to include the Michigan delegation. Now could they be seated? Of course. Will they get a vote? No.
DOBBS: So you're going to give them shelter, but you're going to disenfranchise them?
ZOGBY: They're not disenfranchised. They made a mistake by violating the rules of the Democratic Party and the Democratic Party --
DOBBS: I've got to be honest with you, gentlemen. I'm looking forward to this being a very tight race into the convention because it looks like a far more interesting --
ZOGBY: Senator Obama is going to win it and I think we're going to see that happen in the next couple of weeks.
DOBBS: Jim Zogby, thank you very much. Who do you think will win?
ZIMMERMAN: I think Hillary Clinton is well on her way.
DOBBS: Thank you both for surprising me with your forecasts. Robert Zimmerman and Jim Zogby, thank you, gentlemen.
Up next here, Senator Obama, Senator Clinton, they've just arrived as you have seen for the debate tonight in Austin, Texas. That is now just about 13 minutes away, little bit more. We're going to come right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The CNN/Univision Democratic debate in Austin, Texas just a few minutes away now. Joining me, three of my favorite political minds in the country, CNN contributors Miguel Perez, syndicated columnist Errol Louis, columnist "New York Daily News." And from Austin, Texas, Ken Vogel, senior political reporter, Politico.com.
Ken, thanks for being with us. The excitement is building there in Austin. Are you ready?
KEN VOGEL, POLITICO.COM: Oh, I'm ready and the campaigns are definitely ready. Senator Clinton really has to use this debate to present some sharp contrasts with Senator Obama and we expect her to continue to hit on the themes that her campaign has hit on in the last couple of days. Those being this idea that Obama has lifted some lines from Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick and also that he may have waffled on a pledge to accept public financing in the general election should he win the nomination.
DOBBS: Yes, what is that about, Errol Louis? My gosh. They said they were going to do public financing. What's going on with Mr. Obama?
ERROL LOUIS, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Something changed. Back when he said that he was going to do that, he wasn't raising a million dollars a day.
DOBBS: Or a minute it seems like.
LOUIS: Sometimes it does seem that way and so now that things changed, he's going to take his time, I think. I think he's going to take his time about coming to an agreement because every day that he delays in making a decision, it's another million dollars in the bank.
DOBBS: I love this is time for a change, Miguel, but it sounds to me like it's politics as usual. Isn't this stuff we're kind of used to?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: You expect politicians to break the pledge after they become elected, not before.
DOBBS: Well, he went and made a big mistake. He made a pledge that could be enforced or broken before. What do you expect to happen, Ken?
VOGEL: Well, the goal of the Clinton campaign is to kind of chip away as some of the veneer that Obama has established as the candidate of sort of authenticity and inspiration and that's one of the ways they'll do it. They'll present him as sort of a brilliant rhetorician but having little else.
And what they hope to do with these two issues, the pledge on the public financing or the not pledge depending on how you look and also the lifting of the rhetoric from Deval Patrick to show that he's all about words and you can't even trust his words. That's their goal here.
Obama, the goal is real simpler. He just has to do no harm in this debate. The momentum is really looking good for him. And as long as he makes no significant blunders, I think he'll emerge still as the front runner from this debate.
DOBBS: Well Miguel Perez, let's go to one of your -- in fact, your latest column and if we could put that up on the screen for our viewers. You say "Instead of asking whether Texas Latinos can save Clinton's candidacy, we should be asking whether they should." Whoa. Tough stuff.
PEREZ: Well, you know, on the issue of immigration, which is by far the most important issue for Latinos, certainly in Texas which is a border state, the one who has been the straight talker has been Senator Obama. It has been Clinton who has gone back and forth on driver's license to illegal immigrants.
Gone back and forth when Senator Obama said, hey, listen. Illegal immigrants are not taking jobs from inner city youths. That's called scapegoating. She went the other way and she says, oh I can understand the African-American community's concerns. She walks on both sides of the border fence and it's about time that she -- Obama can use this in this debate tonight.
DOBBS: What I find impressive if that you've been able to find a narrow sliver of difference between them in their pandering to the Hispanic community in Texas.
PEREZ: There's no way of trusting the Clintons on immigration or any other issue.
DOBBS: I think we have a declared direction here. Errol, that's pretty strong.
LOUIS: That is kind of strong. Look, I think a lot of this - and we've underestimated up until now gets to the mechanics because I think you are right. On many issues, they're really very close but the mechanics of how you pull this off, I think they're going to be really important. I mean when Obama was talking before a crowd in Houston the other night, he explained the complicated dance that Texas voter haves to go through in the primary. They have to vote first.
DOBBS: Who's better organized in Texas?
LOUIS: Well he's proved that he's better organized everywhere. I mean the Clinton campaign says they have half of the 8,000 precincts, the'yve found about 4,000 or so precinct captains. That is not going to cut it. They have got to --
DOBBS: Obama has?
LOUIS: Well I assume that they've got a plan. They showed in state after state after state that they have this stuff figured out, how to win a caucus.
DOBBS: Well we're going to wait to see who wins the debate here. Stay with us, we're coming right back with our panel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're back with Miguel Perez, Errol Louis and Ken Vogel.
Ken, your thoughts as we approach debate time.
VOGEL: Well, I think that we'll see Clinton really go after Obama. It is kind of getting close to desperation time for her and so she needs to sharpen these distinctions. She really needs to show how she's different than Obama on more than just sort of the message on the policy, but then also to show that she's more substance there.
And then going forward, I think that we'll see Obama continuing to have a better organization than her both in Texas and Ohio. He's just raising more money than her so he can afford to put more people on the ground particularly in these caucus states like Texas.
DOBBS: Isn't this a surprise?
VOGEL: Oh, yes, certainly, certainly.
DOBBS: That Obama is better organized than Clinton.
VOGEL: Well, yes. Clinton coming in had all the trappings of being the front-runner. She had the fund raising, she had the network established and she really built a campaign that was kind of structured around that premise, that she would be able to continue to outpace him on fund raising, put more people on the ground, air more ads. That has proven not to be the case and Obama forced her to spend more than she thought she would have to.
DOBBS: Errol Louis, Miguel Perez -- one of the big issues right down there in Texas is the trans-Texas corridor, 4,000 miles. State officials are even denying its existence over the past year. Now it is a big deal because it's coming right down if you will, the turnpike. And one of the -- one of the competing bidders is a very large Mexican company. What do you make of it, Errol?
LOUIS: Well I would expect that both candidates will avoid that issue like the plague, Lou. And this is not something that's going to get them any votes or any attention that they're looking for and what they're really looking for I think is to go after each other. There's unfortunately not much to be gained this close to this very important primary by talking too much about issues.
DOBBS: So --
PEREZ: Good question to bring up tonight for them. This would be an absolutely great question because they are in Texas. Texas is going to be the state that is most affected by this highway obviously. So this is -- this would be a good time to pressure them and talking about this issue. DOBBS: Ken, do you think that's going to happen tonight? Univision, CNN, all going to be -- are we going to see the beginning tonight of real substance in these debates? These candidates forced to take a position?
VOGEL: I think certainly in this debate there's more chance that we'll have a real healthy dialogue on immigration, on border issues. Senator Clinton has sought to kind of reach out. She's established in her appearances in south Texas that she has roots in the area, that she registered voters down there years and years ago before she entered public life.
And she has spoken to some local issues in the valley as they call it - the need for a veterans administrations hospital down there. She also has spoken about immigration reform. It will be interesting to see how they address it. I imagine it will be pretty delicately tonight.
DOBBS: The Hispanic-American vote in Texas, Errol Louis, these two are working hard for it. But are they making a mistake because in survey after survey, we are seeing the Latino vote is not monolithic. That the issue of illegal immigration leaves Hispanic-Americans divided, adds well.
LOUIS: Not only that, but let's look 20 years ago. Jesse Jackson matched Michael Dukakis' vote there because they have some odd rules down there that favor challengers.
DOBBS: You get the lat word, Miguel.
PEREZ: It just depends on how well they can split the Hispanic vote. If Obama gets a good chunk of it, he wins.
DOBBS: All right, Miguel, thank you very much. Ken, thank you in Austin, Texas. Errol, good to see you.
Tonight's poll numbers, the results overwhelming - 98 percent of you say these candidates should clearly state whether they support the NAFTA superhighway during the course of tonight's debate in Texas. We'll see.
We're going to Austin, Texas in just a minute where the CNN debate between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
And we want to, if we may, bring to your attention something that has many Texans outraged. They want answers on that corridor, the NAFTA superhighway running from Mexico through Texas all the way to Canada. Most Americans have joined Texas in wanting answers tonight. But Washington and the companies competing for those contracts don't want to provide them.
That's our broadcast for tonight. The Democratic debate begins right now.
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