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Nancy Grace
Las Vegas Clinic Shut Down After 40,000 Exposed to Hepatitis, AIDS
Aired March 04, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. How often do you go to the doctor? Routine visits, allergy shots, illness? And what about your children? Do you take them? Tonight, shock waves in Nevada after investigators reveal one clinic, one single clinic, may have infected over 40,000 patients after routine tests, tests ordered by doctors, infected patients with deadly HIV, hepatitis B and C. Why? Staffers ordered to reuse syringes and vials, one patient after the next, to cut costs. Tonight, the FBI on the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As many as 40,000 people who visited the hospital may have contracted the AIDS virus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new warning about the safety of health clinics across the country. The Centers for Disease Control is suggesting the recent outbreak of hepatitis C at a clinic in Nevada could be just the tip of the iceberg. The head of the CDC blames in outbreak on sloppy infection control practices, like nurses reusing syringes and vials, passing the infection from patient to patient. The Nevada clinic was shut down after it was learned six patients had contracted hepatitis C due to unsafe practices.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m thinking, Who`s responsible for using dirty syringes when they could have put my mother`s life in danger? It endangers not only my mother, myself, my children, but our whole family. Hopefully, they get shut down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: America loves "American Idol," but tonight, a 3-year-old baby girl fighting for her life after being submerged in the family tub for an unknown period of time, Indianapolis. Where`s Mommy? In another room watching "American Idol." Tonight, just released, that heart-wrenching 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This police report reveals new details the night 3-year-old Syrius Brooks (ph) slipped under water. The only witness, her 2-year-old baby sister. The girl`s mother, Sheila Brooks (ph), stepped into a bedroom to get clothing, but instead got distracted. According to police, she started watching "American Idol" with her 7 and 5-year-old and forgot the babies in the tub. Several minutes later, she sent the 7-year- old to bathe the toddlers. That`s when Syrius was discovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: What`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A baby was playing with (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A baby was in the tub (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: A baby was what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A baby was in the tub and must have passed out or something. My sister`s trying to get her to breathe. We need somebody over here.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Stay on the line for the ambulance. Don`t hang up.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight, mystery surrounding the massacre of a Memphis family. Six dead, including two small children. Few leads tonight as police cobble together a motive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A violent attack in Memphis has left six people dead, including two children, and fire officials say the victims were shot and police say at least one of the children was stabbed. Three children are hospitalized after being found barely alive at the scene. The wounded are a 7-year-old boy, a 10-month-old girl and a 4-year-old. Police say they have no suspects or motive and they`re appealing to the public for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are children that were brutally killed and injured. We`re looking for anyone that has any information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Shock waves in Nevada after police reveal 40,000 patients exposed to the deadly HIV virus, hepatitis C and B, and other diseases after a single Vegas clinic recycled syringes and vials to cut costs. Cut costs? The owner of the clinic just bought a $4 million luxury home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A really disturbing development in the case of that Las Vegas clinic that may have exposed 40,000 patients to hepatitis and HIV, incredibly frightening. No one can remember anything like this happening before on a scale like this. Three more medical clinics in Las Vegas are now closed. Officials say workers may have used the same syringes on multiple patients, potentially exposing them to hepatitis and HIV. And now the CDC is saying this may just be the tip of the iceberg. Health officials are now trying to reach patients who visited the Endoscopy Center of Southern Nevada between March of 2004 and January of this year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The majority of people who would be infected in a setting such as this would not know that they were infected. The sooner they can identify that they have been infected, the sooner they can take steps to protect their own health.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been extremely angry. And when I read that it could have only happened in two days -- how can you say that? You cannot determine it could only happened in two days. You don`t know what days these vials were contaminated. You have -- it has no idea. That`s just blowing smoke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Forty thousand people at risk to cut costs by reusing these -- how much can one of these cost, 50 cents, 25 cents -- while the owner of the clinic just moved into a nearly $4 million luxury home, people looking at the prospect of developing AIDS from the HIV virus, hepatitis B, hepatitis C after routine visits to a clinic, tests ordered by their doctors!
Let`s go out to Elizabeth Cohen, CNN medical correspondent. What happened?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, what happened here is just as you`re describing, Nancy. These are syringes, just as you showed, that they reused. They used them on one person, they used them on another. We have a great illustration that shows what happened here. They would use this syringe on one person, let`s say on this lady. So you use the syringe, you fill it up with the vial, with that yellow liquid. You then give that anesthetic to someone with hepatitis C. Well, inevitably, some of her hepatitis C is going to come back into that syringe. You use the syringe again on this poor guy who doesn`t have hepatitis C, you`re giving him hepatitis C. That`s how it happened.
You know, another way of looking at it is like this. You can see this milk bottle. If I drank from this milk with a straw and I was sick, and even if I took the straw out and gave you a new straw, Nancy, and you sipped out of it, you`d get sick because my germs are in there.
GRACE: You know, it`s amazing to me, 40,000 people looking at the prospect of HIV, hepatitis B, hepatitis C. Explain to me the symptoms that they would be begin to have, Elizabeth.
COHEN: Well, this is part of the problem, is really what they`re worried about mostly, is hepatitis C, and people don`t have symptoms for a very long time, often. Like, 80 percent of people who get it don`t have any symptoms until they become really severely ill, and often by then, it`s too late.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Ashley in Nevada. Hi, Ashley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just had a question. What type of prosecution are we looking at for the nurses who knowingly, like, infected all these people?
GRACE: Let`s go to a special guest joining us from Vegas. Peter Wetherall is with us. He is an attorney for approximately 500 of these patients. What about the nurses or the staffing that actually reused syringes and vials, Peter? Are they looking at any possible jail time? Is the owner of the clinic looking at any jail time? It was by his direction.
PETER WETHERALL, ATTORNEY FOR PATIENTS: Well, Nancy, the real disappointing thing about this is that, apparently, over the last four years, no one did speak up, no one whom you would expect to. And so we have nurses, we have assistants, we have management all with this code of silence just to further this profit motive.
And in fact, what`s being reported out here is that the district attorney`s office is investigating. They are looking at this from top to bottom. And whether or not the district attorney decides to prosecute anyone is up to his discretion.
GRACE: OK, I`m going to try that question with you, Ed Bernstein, attorney for Michael Washington, one of the people already diagnosed with hepatitis C. Thank you for being with us, Ed. What are possible criminal charges against the nurses, the staff, and the owner of this clinic?
ED BERNSTEIN, ATTORNEY FOR INFECTED PATIENT: I think it`s very likely. I`ve already spoken with investigators from the district attorney`s office, and representatives from the Metropolitan Police Department are coming to see me tomorrow about documents that we have regarding this case.
GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Paul Batista, Ray Giudice. Ray Giudice, just give me the charges. You know what? I`ll ask myself and give myself the answer. Possible aggravated assault, aggravated battery...
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Reckless endangerment. Sure. Sure.
GRACE: Reckless endangerment. Explain, Ray, your theory on reckless endangerment.
GIUDICE: Well, absolutely. If you have knowledge that a product or something you`re doing to somebody can reasonably lead to harm, which clearly anyone in the medical community knows this would happen, that`s going to be reckless endangerment. But let me say I think the plaintiffs` lawyers have a concern about the criminal charges, Nancy, because criminal acts can void insurance policies for negligence.
GRACE: Oh! I didn`t know that. Is that a concern to you, Peter Wetherall?
WETHERALL: Not only is that a concern, but just because of the sheer quantity of people involved, there`s an issue as to how much money is out there to facilitate a remedy for these people. I mean, keep in mind, Nancy, that we`re talking about 40,000 people that passed through that clinic over the last few years, but to the extent they had intimate or sexual contact with a spouse or a loved one, they could have spread it without knowing.
GRACE: Back to Paul Batista, defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness." Paul Batista, do you agree with -- I`m thinking aggravated battery, not aggravated assault, because aggravated assault is putting someone in fear of immediate serious bodily harm...
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`m thinking...
GRACE: ... all right? Battery is the actually loss of a limb, an organ. What do you think?
BATISTA: Or the punching, and the injection, in this case. There are also potential charges for conspiracy here, particularly if, as the plaintiffs` lawyers are indicating, nurses and other personnel were involved, all the way up to the top of the pyramid here. So there are potential conspiracy charges to do exactly the things that we`ve identified -- the assaults, the reckless endangerment. It`s a pretty horrific set of circumstances.
GRACE: Well, I`m stunned.
GIUDICE: Nancy, one last thing. Quickly. There may also be insurance fraud, Medicaid, Medicare fraud, if these were separately billed. It sounds insignificant, but 40,000 needles and syringes that are billed to an insurance company that this doctor was getting payment for that, that`s a slam dunk insurance fraud case.
GRACE: Ray, Ray -- I want to see him, please -- Ray Giudice, Paul Batista. Ray, I appreciate you thinking of the financial end here, but if I found out that my doctor ordered the staff to reuse a syringe and a vial and I was possibly infected with HIV, hepatitis B, and -- the last thing I would be worried about is some Medicaid fraud!
GIUDICE: I understand, Nancy...
GRACE: But thank you.
GIUDICE: ... but there`s more doctors in jail for Medicaid fraud right now than there are for intentional harm.
GRACE: I didn`t know that.
GIUDICE: And that`s a great slam dunk case.
GRACE: You know what? That`s an excellent point. Now I get where you two are coming from on Medicaid fraud. You`re right, it`d be easier to prove a case like that criminally...
GIUDICE: That`s right.
GRACE: ... than the aggravated assault or battery.
Out to the lines. Michelle in Colorado. Hi, Michelle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congratulations on both of your children.
GRACE: Today is their 4-month birthday, Michelle. I didn`t know how I was going to work it in tonight, but-...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question...
GRACE: ... since you brought it up -- thank you. Go ahead, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question and a point for you. When it comes to needles, they`re supposed to be covered and packed and brand-new because, for example, I know, my husband is a diabetic, I have to take it out of a plastic syringe cover to give him a diabetic needle at night.
GRACE: OK. So what`s your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, why didn`t people say anything when they brought a needle into the room that it`s opened and not in a package?
GRACE: That`s a very good question. But I`ve got to tell you, you know, very often, people see syringes already laid out for them when they go into the doctor.
Let`s go to Elizabeth Cohen on that. I noticed when I was in the hospital for so long after the twins` birth, you know, in the middle of the night, Elizabeth, I`m talking 4:00 AM, I would hear this. And it would be a nurse, standing right there, taking a syringe out of the plastic. And that would wake me up, just like the caller, Michelle in Colorado said. But a lot of patients go in, and the needles are already all laid out, and you never think that they are reused, recycled needles and syringes.
COHEN: Well, actually, in this case, Nancy, they weren`t reusing the needles. The needles...
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: It was the syringes that were used over and over. It was like my milk bottle, a new straw. Who cares if you`re using a new straw if someone else just drank out of that bottle. You could still get sick.
GRACE: You know what`s amazing to me -- let`s go out to Kristen Flowers, news anchor at KXNT AM 840 -- Kristen, that so many people sat by and did nothing. Those were educated nursing staff members, medical staff, following the order to reuse vials and syringes, one patient after the next after the next after the next, to save money. Now, 40,000 people could have HIV and hepatitis B. Why would people sit back -- didn`t they notice that this was going on right there in the clinic where they worked?
KRISTEN FLOWERS, KXNT AM 840: Well, I mean, that`s the interesting thing about this, is these -- there were so many people involved and no one said anything about this. And also, in addition to the 40,000 people that have possibly been affected -- I mean, this dates back from March 2004 up until January 11 of this year. Anyone that`s went to these clinics are at risk for contracting these diseases.
And on top of that, the centers may not even have correct contact information. We learned from an official at KXNT that they have about 1,400 people they don`t even have correct information for. They couldn`t even send out a notification letter. That`s so scary.
And all these nurses that stood by, all these staff members, they were all a part of it, and they should all be correctly involved in this case. I mean, this is a huge deal. Even if you knew just a little bit of what was going on, this is a huge, big thing.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Toni in Utah. Hi, Toni.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy Grace. Happy 4-month birthday on your babies.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had a question. Who notified the authorities? Was it the nurses, or did it happen to be the patients that had contracted something through them?
GRACE: Elizabeth Cohen, who did notify authorities?
COHEN: Yes, as we understand it, some patients got sick. They went to health authorities, and the health authorities basically put two and two together. They were finding several patients who were sick who`d been to this clinic on the same day. And that`s sort of how this puzzle got put together.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, it`s really, in my mind, no different from other violent crimes that we evaluate every day and every night because you had the actor and you had people standing by enabling, saying nothing.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: These are medical professionals, Nancy. I mean, I was an emergency medical technician. Every time you used a syringe, you`d take it, you put it in the sharps container. Any time you go into a medical office, you see -- usually, you see the syringe and the needles goes right into the sharps container, and that`s now medical waste. So they`re reusing, basically, medical waste.
It`s going to take a long time to do this investigation, though, Nancy, if there are not sufficient records there because it sounds like most of the patients coming to this clinic were from referrals. So if anyone`s watching this show tonight and they were treated any time between March 2004 and January of this year, they should be contacting the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department because, especially if they had a syringe and a needle used, they could be at risk.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight, two of the attorneys on the case. Amazingly, one single clinic, the Endoscopy Center of Southern Nevada, may have infected up to 40,000 people with the deadly HIV, hepatitis C and B.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m thinking, Who`s responsible for using dirty syringes when they could have put my mother`s life in danger? It endangers not only my mother, myself, my children, but our whole family. My next step is taking her to get tested, and then going from there. Hopefully, they get shut down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I have to be very careful with the needles and stuff I use. I throw them in the container so they can be disposed of properly. I try to control the anger and the depression so it doesn`t reflect back to my wife. And I hope that she`s able to deal with the changes that I`m going through.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not going anyplace. That`s just -- that`s - - come on. My vows said, For better, for worse, in sickness and in health. I had breast cancer years ago, and he didn`t leave me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Stunning news out of the Las Vegas area. A local clinic has infected possibly 40,000 people with the deadly HIV, hepatitis B and C after reusing syringes and vials, one patient after the next after the next after the next.
Out to the lines. Nikki in Nevada. Hi, Nikki.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you, Nancy, for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just -- you know, I feel so strongly there should have been some order against this guy who ran this clinic. I was one of the patients who was in his clinic, along with -- there`s been five now in Nevada that have been shut down today. So we have more than just the 40,000 patients. And this guy is free to leave the country at any time. He does not come from within this country. No one reported him, because why? He was on the state board for this kind of work. So you know everyone was scared to go up against him. And I just think they should be putting a stop order on him leaving the country at this point so he can deal with the ramifications of having infected people and their families and their loved ones!
GRACE: Kristen Flowers, is Nikki correct that there are five clinics shut down, and this guy doesn`t -- what`s his name? And he doesn`t have even an order keeping him from leaving the country?
FLOWERS: Well, right now, it`s just considered an open investigation. Obviously, you`re aware that there`s a procedure. They can`t just stop him from leaving the country right away. And yes, five clinics have been shut down.
GRACE: Dr. Dipak Desai is his name.
FLOWERS: Right. Right. And only the Endoscopy Center of Southern Nevada is the one that has the possible infection. Now, the same medical group owns the other four clinics, and as a precaution -- better be safe than sorry -- they did shut doors on those clinics. But right now, there`s no evidence to show that anyone was infected from those clinics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The majority of people who would be infected in a setting such as this would not know that they were infected. The sooner they can identify that they have been infected, the sooner they can take steps to protect their own health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been extremely angry. I`m very angry with them. And when I read that it could have only happened in two days -- how can you say that? You cannot determine it could only happen in two days. You don`t know what days these vials were contaminated. You have -- he has no idea. That`s just blowing spoke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Virginia in Ohio. Hi, Virginia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering, if these nurses were instructed to do so, who can eventually be held accountability for this?
GRACE: You know, let`s go back to Peter Wetherall. Who can be held accountable, Peter?
WETHERALL: Well, first of all, Nancy, the nurses themselves can because they`re regulated by the state of Nevada and they are supposed to be advocates for patients, not for management of facilities. So I would expect that, eventually, they will be held accountable, if, in fact, they were simply following orders and that`s their excuse.
GRACE: Ed Bernstein, agree or disagree?
BERNSTEIN: (INAUDIBLE) agree. And I think the problem transcends the syringes. It`s my understanding that they weren`t properly cleaning the scope equipment...
GRACE: Oh, no!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: For endoscopies! Oh, no! Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, that is blatantly dangerous, to give one endoscopy after the next, where it goes down your throat, one patient after the next. How could people stand by and be silent, Doctor?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I cannot imagine it. It is the most basic medical practice that you keep things absolutely sterile. It`s unthinkable they would do that, never mind reusing those syringes.
GRACE: Joining us tonight, Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist. Weigh in, Doctor.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, you`ve been discussing fatal diseases. And as I understand it, this is not an accident. The lawyers better be prepared -- at the instance of the first patient to die, they better be prepared for the medical examiner to call this or declare this a homicide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: You need to dial 911.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes. There is an emergency at this address.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What`s the address? What`s the address?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: 9326 East 42nd Street.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A baby was playing with.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A baby was in the tub.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: A baby was what?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A baby was in the tub and must have passed out or something. My sister is trying to get her to breathe. We need somebody over here.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Stay on the line for the ambulance. Don`t hang up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: America loves "American Idol," but tonight a 3-year-old baby girl is fighting for her life in intensive care. She was found submerged in the family bathtub. Where was mommy? In another room watching "Idol."
To Devon Scott with WIBC Newsradio 93.1FM, Devon, what happened?
DEVON SCOTT, REPORTER, WIBC NEWSRADIO 93.1FM: This happened last week. Sheila Brooks had walked out of the room after putting her 3-year-old daughter, Sirius, and her 1-year-old daughter in the bathtub, and her two older daughters were in the next room. They walked into the other room, started watching "American Idol" when, according to the 7-year-old, this is what the 7-year-old told police, that her mom all of a sudden stood up and said, "Oh, my gosh, I forgot about the kids in the bathtub. Will you go check on them?"
The 7-year-old walked back into the bathroom and saw that her baby sister, the 3-year-old, was submerged under water.
GRACE: Joining us tonight, Lieutenant Jeff Duhamel.
Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. He`s with the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department. Lieutenant Duhamel, what do you think happened? What did your people find when they arrived?
LT. JEFF DUHAMEL, INDIANAPOLIS POLICE DEPT.: Well, when officers arrived on the scene, of course, it was pretty chaotic at first. The medics were already there. They were starting CPR and they subsequently transported the 3-year-old to the hospital.
Their investigation at this point is ongoing. We`re looking at probably down the road here for filing charges of (INAUDIBLE), filing charges of neglect on Sheila Brooks. However, at this time, what they`re doing, the child is still in critical condition at the hospital. My understanding at this point, she does have pneumonia, she had a severe fever two days ago. She is responding to voices from the mother. And that`s why at this point there has not been an arrest.
We feel it`s important that the mother is there at the hospital and she is being supervised as far as visitation. But she is responding to the mother`s voice. So you know, our prayers are with the family and hopefully the child pulls through.
GRACE: Joining us tonight, Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist.
Doctor, she says she was just gone a few moments. That`s what is always said when a child dies or is injured by neglect. I just turned my back and this happened. Can you look at the child and determine how long she had been submerged?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: No, you can`t tell exactly how long, but for a child to die with submersion, it usually takes about four minutes. This child isn`t dead, so you`re looking at something under four minutes.
If this child dies, they`re likely to call this a homicide based on child neglect and a death resulting from child neglect.
GRACE: How do you drown in eight inches of water?
ARNALL: Well, eight inches is plenty of water to drown in. There`s a couple of possibilities. Everyone has probably considered the possibility that the child slipped and fell, maybe hit its head, but I don`t know how you`ve secluded the possibility that the child was held under water. Some parents have figured out that when a child is crying and is loud, one of the ways to quiet it down is to prevent it from breathing.
Some parents squeeze the child -- to prevent it from breathing, but I don`t know how you`ve excluded the possibility that this child was held under water until it stopped crying.
GRACE: To Lieutenant Duhamel, how has that possibility been excluded or has it?
DUHAMEL: Well, one thing they were looking at is apparently the child at one point was being treated for seizures. Now whether that plays a part in it at this point, we`re looking into it. There was another child in the tub with her, a 1-year-old.
GRACE: OK. Well, that`s all the more reason the child should not be left alone, if it has ever had a seizure alone in the bathtub.
Out to the lines, Kelly in North Carolina. Hi, Kelly.
KELLY, FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. First, I`d like to say I think you`re awesome and I love how you stand up for children.
GRACE: Thank you.
KELLY: My question, first of all, is does the mother have a history of any child abuse, and also, what you all were just talking about, could the 1- year-old child have held the baby under water?
GRACE: Let`s talk about it.
Devon Scott with WIBC Newsradio, Devon, I assume the 3-year-old is much bigger than the 1-year-old. I don`t see a 1-year-old being able to hold the 3-year-old down, but, what do we know?
SCOTT: Well, we`re not sure, because the 1-year-old probably isn`t the most reliable witness, but I guess looking at the police report, the 1- year-old was the only witness to see this other little girl go under water. And as far as the mom, I know your caller had mentioned, does she have a criminal history. She had some brushes with the law and in every case the charges were dismissed.
GRACE: Weren`t they with her boyfriend, fights with her boyfriend?
SCOTT: Yes. One did include -- there was something about somebody hitting someone over the head.
GRACE: Right, but it was never anything with the children. Is that correct, Devon?
SCOTT: Yes. That`s what it appears to be.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sierra in South Carolina. Hi, Sierra.
SIERRA, FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
SIERRA: Well, it`s actually a comment.
GRACE: OK.
SIERRA: I watch you every night and I think I was watching a story.
GRACE: Thank you.
SIERRA: .last week about a mother that went on, you know, a 12-hour drinking binge or whatever. This absolutely just appalls me, what mothers are able to do with their children because.
GRACE: Oh I remember the case. She was gone overnight.
SIERRA: Correct.
GRACE: .and the police got there the next morning.
SIERRA: Correct.
GRACE: .and she came in smelling of alcohol. The children had been alone all night long.
SIERRA: Right. And we just keep seeing this about mothers that are just basically abandoning their children for really stupid reasons. My husband and I are expecting our first child next month and he`s going to be born with a very serious heart conditions and I`ve been afraid to take Tylenol. You know I just don`t understand how mothers can be this way with their children.
GRACE: You know it`s the same way while I was carrying the twins. I was afraid to take any type of medication. You can imagine how I am now.
SIERRA: Right.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Leslie Austin, especially this little girl had seizures, or even not, it doesn`t matter. To leave a toddler and a 1-year- old alone in water, about 10 inches deep? Well, I mean, what were they thinking?
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Honestly, I don`t know. What makes this even more tragic is I suspect it`s a mindless, stupid error, which makes the tragedy that much worse. This kind of neglect is just a terrible tragedy all around.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former cop with the feds, Mike, weigh in.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know what, Nancy, there`s other things, too. In this room where she was watching the "Idol," instead of bathing her children like she should have been doing, in this room were apparently almost an ounce out in plain view of the 5-year-old and 7-year-old of a green leafy substance, a.k.a., marijuana. And in another adult bedroom, there were five used up marijuana roaches, burnt little -- just little pieces that they`d already smoked.
So you know -- and also, I think, Nancy, they found a scale there. So what does the scale mean? Is that for your personal use? Probably not. What else was going on in this apartment? She should never see these kids ever again. But you`ve got two fathers of the other children, too. You know, are they fit parents? Probably not.
GRACE: Yes, I keep wondering and we keep hammering the mom, which she deserves, but where are the dads? They`re not even in the home.
Everybody, you`re seeing "American Idol" from last Thursday night. As you know by now, this mom in the other room watching "American Idol" while her 3-year-old daughter is submerged in the tub. Police show up, as Mike Brooks has pointed out, to find the place with marijuana everywhere, blunt -- roaches already smoked.
I mean, bottom line, let`s go to the lawyers. Paul Batista, Ray Giudice, she was probably watching "Idol" having a big, fat duby. You know what? That`s not going to go down very well with a jury, Ray Giudice.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy. Mike -- I mean Mike pointed out the criminal defense lawyer`s biggest problem, the marijuana use.
GRACE: Yes.
GIUDICE: .will elevate these charges to an intent matter. Instead of involuntary homicide, you could have a voluntarily homicide charge.
GRACE: What about it, Paul?
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, I have to dissent from all of this. The fact that the woman had marijuana roaches in her apartment does not necessarily have any crucial bearing on whether she`s guilty of child neglect, child abuse or as I heard suggested the murder of this child.
GRACE: The fact that the -- the fact that the marijuana was right there in plain view of the children, that means nothing to you, Batista.
BATISTA: Arrest her for marijuana use. Don`t accuse her of murder because there was marijuana in the home.
GRACE: OK. Let me just ask the lieutenant a quick question.
Lieutenant Duhamel, did somebody take her blood alcohol? Had she been smoking pot at the time of the incident?
DUHAMEL: To my knowledge, no. They`re still looking at all the facts about the marijuana. You`re right, there could be additional charges, not only with a, like a B neglect and a B neglect with a 1-year-old, but also possession of marijuana as well.
GRACE: OK. And very quickly, lieutenant, how`s the little girl tonight?
DUHAMEL: Well, my understanding, she -- like I said, she has pneumonia in both lungs. She still is on life-support. Like I said, she has been responding to some stimuli, which is a good sign. But I think right now it`s very critical. She`s -- the 72 hours was very critical initially. Now we`re in the sixth day so she just, if you can imagine, is clinging to life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Memphis police are calling in the public`s help in finding whoever is responsible for a mass killing, a shooting of an entire family. Six people are dead including two children. Three more kids are barely alive in a hospital. The wounded include a 7-year-old, a 10-month- old, and a 4-year-old.
Officials say two men, two women, and two boys were fatally shot. At least one of the children had been stabbed. Police say they have no suspects and they think the killer was not among the dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An incredible mystery there in the Memphis area.
Let`s go out to Janice Broach with CNN affiliate WMC-TV.
Janis, a whole family, what happened?
JANICE BROACH, REPORTER, WMC-TV: Well, it`s amazing and that`s a very good question. We know that they are dead, but we don`t know exactly what happened. You can see behind me, that`s the Memphis Police Department`s CSI unit. They have been out here all day, they were out here all day or rather last night looking for clues in this case.
We know that the people inside the house are dead. The Memphis police are not saying very much about where they were in the house. They -- we do know that they were shot. There was the one child who was also stabbed.
It`s also not clear exactly when this happened. We know that neighbors say that they heard several shots around 6:00 or 7:00 Sunday night. We also know that the mother of one of the children inside the house who was killed, she came and knocked on the door on Sunday. She wanted to get her child. She said that the door was slightly ajar, but she didn`t go inside. She yelled, no one came out, she did see two cars in the driveway. She came back again on Monday and she did not get an answer.
Finally, around 6:00 Monday night, last night, she did knock on the door, didn`t hear anything, and that`s when police were contacted and they went inside and they found the two males, two females, and two children dead and then three other children also, they were shot. They are at a local hospital here and there`s an awful lot of security around those children. They are in protective custody.
And relatives I have talked with say that they are not being allowed to see the children, they assume, because one of them certainly is old enough to be a witness and there is a fear that maybe someone might go to the hospital and try to kill those children as well since they were not successful the first time that they tried.
GRACE: Any possible motive, Janice Broach?
BROACH: There is not any motive that the police have put forth at all. They don`t have any suspects. They said they do not have any motive. We - - I talk with the family members. They said that there were no problems with drug. They said that he didn`t have anything. They didn`t know if there would be -- for a robbery, there will be nothing that anyone could take.
So at this point we don`t have any real motive at all. It`s just a mystery. Some horrible crime that has occurred and no one seems to know exactly why it happened or who did it.
GRACE: You know, Mike Brooks, it`s very difficult for me to believe that carnage at that level goes with no DNA, no fingerprint, no fibers left behind.
BROOKS: There`s always going to be something left behind, Nancy, but again, you have to have a suspect. But what just baffles me, one of the neighbors across the street said the apparent man of the house would sometimes go out and shoot his gun off on fourth of July and New Year`s Eve, and they said they hear gunshots there all the time.
I don`t care where you live, you hear gunshots, you pick up the phone, you dial 911. Someone in that neighborhood, Nancy, had to have seen or heard something between Saturday night and Monday morning, period.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Anthony in Missouri. Hi, Anthony. I think I`ve got Anthony in Missouri. Anthony, are you with me? OK. Can`t hear Anthony. Liz, let me know when we get him back.
Back to Janice Broach.
Janice, exactly how were police notified? Who called them?
BROACH: Well, the mother of the one of the children who was inside the house, the man who rented the house, he is the father of five children. The woman in the house, the woman identified as his girlfriend, she is the mother of four of the children. The fifth child, the mother of that child, that`s the one who kept coming to the house, trying to pick up her child and couldn`t get them. And that`s who notified police.
GRACE: OK. I`m going to go out on a limb. Anthony, are you with me?
ANTHONY, FROM MISSOURI: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
ANTHONY: My question was, do they have any suspects, like maybe the ex- boyfriends or husband or anything to that nature?
GRACE: You know, it`s really interesting, Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist joining us tonight, this sounds very much like some type of a domestic or drug murder.
AUSTIN: It sure does. This is a very personal crime to go to that extreme of devastation and hate. This was not random, it was targeted to these people and it`s vengeance oriented.
GRACE: You know, another issue -- out to Mike Brooks. Remember the Groene family where the whole family was wiped out and Shasta and Dylan Groany were taken?
BROOKS: Right.
GRACE: And nobody could figure out why the whole family had been killed? It`s really hard to call it at this juncture with so little facts.
BROOKS: It really is, Nancy. But we go back to what you were just saying. We`re talking about the evidence. Once they develop a possible suspect, they can go back, because I guarantee you there`s going to be some kind of trace evidence. If there is that much violence using guns and knives, there might have been some kind of a maybe possible blood exchange of one of the perpetrators inside.
There`s going to be some kind of evidence, but again, finding out exactly what that evidence is and developing a suspect, that`s going to be the problem with the police. Trying to put all the -- pieces together in this puzzle.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Paul Batista and Ray Giudice, any chance that this is death penalty jurisdiction that the police can get the perp to turn himself in? Paul?
BATISTA: Well, a deal can always be worked out, I`m sad to say, on any basis. If the perp calls a lawyer, the lawyer contacts the D.A., and part of the deal for coming in and giving information is immunization from the death penalty. That can be done.
GRACE: Ray?
GIUDICE: Yes. It`s one of the things about the death penalty. It does give the prosecution and law enforcement some leverage. However, if you`re looking at six consecutive life sentences.
GRACE: Yes.
GIUDICE: .what`s the difference?
GRACE: And to Dr. Michael Arnall, doctor, how do you process a scene like this?
ARNALL: It takes a long time. One of the things they`re going to ask the pathologist is to tell them whatever they can about the size and the shape of the knife. They`re also collecting the bullets and try to determine whether there`s more than one caliber.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE on the hunt for parents who inspire. Now, tonight`s extraordinary parent.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEVERLY MCMINN, NANCY GRACE EXTRAORDINARY PARENT FINALIST: I was treated no differently than my sisters. I was expected to do the same things as my sisters did growing up.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Beverly McMinn has been overcoming life`s obstacles since the day she was born without arms or legs.
JASON MCMINN, BEVERLY MCMINN`S HUSBAND: You don`t even know what she can do until you see this girl right here.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When Beverly and her husband Jason had their first daughter, Skylar, they were met with criticism and doubt.
B. MCMINN: As the years went by, I was able to prove to ourselves and the rest of the world, that we were able to care for our son.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today Beverly is a busy mom of two. With the help of her kids, she runs the household while her husband is at work.
B. MCMINN: I don`t know how many times I`ve had people told me, man, it must be nice to just sit around and don`t do nothing. I don`t do that. That`s just not who I am.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Beverly hopes that her story of perseverance in the face of adversity can be an inspiration to others.
B. MCMINN: I`ve overcome a lot of challenges in my life, take life just one step at a time and enjoy it while you can.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Jason Lee, 26, Fruitport, Michigan, killed, Iraq. Remembered as the life of the party and a free spirit. Loved guitar, science, outdoor, hunting and fishing with dad. Has two brothers, a newlywed, leaves behind grieving parents, Thomas and Susan, brothers Sean and Ryan, and widow, Lisa.
Jason Lee, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially you for inviting us into your homes.
And a special good night from friends of the show, Dr. Lou and Kathleen (INAUDIBLE), supporting the Connie Dwyer Cancer Center in New Jersey, a state of the art facility providing treatment, education and prevention programs to fight another killer tonight, breast cancer.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
