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Nancy Grace
Governor Spitzer Still Mulling Resignation
Aired March 11, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. He was New York state attorney general, prosecutor Eliot Spitzer, then New York state governor, the honorable Eliot Spitzer. Well, tonight, he`s just client number nine. And if the feds have their way, he`ll be inmate number nine in short order. A federal investigation reveals not just a one-night fling with a hooker but a long-time customer, most recently with the Emperors VIP Club, a high- priced prostitution ring spanning from New York to Paris to LA to London and beyond.
Tonight, it only gets worse for Spitzer, AKA client number nine. Bombshell. In the last hour, it`s revealed, Spitzer`s tab up to $80,000 on hookers. And don`t blame the vice squad this time. As usual, when all the others fall by the wayside, it`s the IRS who`s left standing. That`s right, the IRS busted Spitzer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Federal investigators have linked Spitzer to a prostitution ring that initially resulted in four arrests last week described in a federal affidavit. Sources tell CNN the link was the result of a money laundering probe after a bank initially filed a suspicious movement report with the IRS.
GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: Over the past nine years, eight years as attorney general and one as governor, I`ve tried to uphold a vision of progressive politics that would rebuild New York and create opportunity for all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigation is based on electronic communications, e-mails and bank records. Spitzer has not been charged. It`s a devastating blow to a man who built a career on bringing ethics back to politics and busting prostitution rings.
SPITZER: I do not believe that politics in the long run is about individuals. It is about ideas, the public good, and doing what has best for the state of New York. But I have disappointed and failed to live up to the standard I expected of myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hasn`t been charged? Anybody else would have ink on their fingers by now!
And breaking news in the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a beloved couple with ties to Atlanta and South Carolina. They vanished into thin air. Business exec John Calvert and his attorney wife, Elizabeth, last seen at their exclusive gated community, Harbortown (ph), South Carolina. The pair never made it to work the next day. Police combing the Calverts` 2006 silver Mercedes found abandoned, Hilton Head. Tonight, the police hone in on a person of interest in the couple`s disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fast-breaking developments as multiple law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, search for prominent well-known couple John and Elizabeth Calvert. Police reveal a person of interest in the case. Dennis Ray Gerwing (ph) is a business associate and apparently the last person to see the Calverts before they vanished without a trace. Their last known whereabouts, exclusive Harbortown, where the couple lived part-time on their 40-foot yacht. With connections all over Georgia and South Carolina, friends and co-workers say it`s out of character for the Calverts to miss business appointments or work. Their cell phones have been turned off. And tonight, police say Dennis Ray Gerwing is refusing to cooperate with authorities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: A beautiful 22-year-old student body president, UNC Chapel Hill, last seen 1:30 AM doing homework, 5:00 AM, shots fired, 22-year-old Eve Carson found dead in an intersection near campus. Tonight: More grainy surveillance photos emerge, a possible suspect caught on camera driving Carson`s Toyota and using her ATM card.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New photos are now out showing a possible suspect in the murder of UNC student Eve Carson. These images from a local convenience store were taped moments before someone tried using Carson`s ATM card. And not only was this man the only customer in the store at the time, police think he`s the same guy previously recording trying to use Carson`s card at a drive-through ATM. At the very least, police say he might provide information leading to the suspect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. New York governor/tough guy crime fighter Eliot Spitzer looking at 10 years on federal charges revolving around alleged repeated trysts with hookers, all in cash, the hookers rated on a system of three to seven diamonds. Tonight, just in. Did inmate -- excuse me -- Governor Spitzer spend $80,000 on hookers?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A source with knowledge of the investigation says Spitzer is called client number nine in the court document. The document states client number nine arranged for a prostitute named Kristen to travel from New York City to Washington, D.C. Client nine said he would pay for everything, train tickets, cab fare from the hotel and back, minibar or room service, travel time and hotel. When asked about payment, client nine said, yes, same as in the past, no question about it. And when client nine wanted a reminder of what Kristen looked like, he was told she was American, petite, very pretty, brunette, 5-foot 5-inches and 105 pounds. That encounter took about two hours on February 13, the day before Valentine`s Day. When her co-worker asked if client nine, quote, "Would ask you to do things that you may not think were safe," Kristen replied, "I have a way of dealing with that. I`d be like, Listen, dude, do you really want the sex?"
SPITZER: I`ve disappointed and failed to live up to the standard I expected of myself. I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That will take some doing. Straight out Richard Roth, CNN correspondent. He`s standing by outside Spitzer`s New York City headquarters. Richard, thank you for being with us. Richard, did I hear correctly, $80,000 on hookers?
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that`s what investigators are telling news agencies, $80,000 Governor Spitzer would have paid to hookers. And who knows, it may even go further than that. The money would have been what notified the IRS that something was fishy because federal law requires banking institutions to report any transaction over $5,000. Any activity that looks suspicious (INAUDIBLE) start notifying agencies that would investigate them. That`s what happened here.
GRACE: Richard, you just stated, basically, "that we know of." Do you have any -- do you know of any suggestion that it`s more than 80,000?
ROTH: Well, they always say, Follow the money. We don`t know which investigators are saying, how they determined 80,000. And Governor Spitzer certainly has had a long life. We don`t know what the pattern is. I can`t confirm $80,000 at this point. I mean, you watch Watergate and other of these scandals, you never know. The money could go lower, higher in dramatic jumps. Will this ever get to court? Will we ever find out?
GRACE: Outside Spitzer`s New York headquarters, Richard Roth, CNN Correspondent.
To Roger Simon, chief political columnist for "Politico." He`s joining us from Washington, D.C. Roger, welcome. Talking about the $80,000, at this juncture, Roger Simon, how far back have they traced Spitzer to get generally that tab?
ROGER SIMON, POLITICO.COM: I don`t know. And in a way, it doesn`t matter whether he spent $80,000 or $8,000, it matters that he spent all this money on hookers. I mean, you got to wonder, has this guy never heard of interns? You get caught in an affair with an intern, you get to keep your job, and 10 years later, people still think you`re a hero.
Also, what`s amazing to me is that according to the affidavits, anyway, he uses e-mails and text messages and phone calls to arrange for acts of prostitution. This man has never watched "The Wire," apparently. He`s a former prosecutor, but he doesn`t understand the basics of electronic surveillance? The stupidity of this, the arrogance of this, is what gets me more than how much money he spent.
GRACE: You know, Roger, you just said either stupidity or arrogance, and we know that Spitzer is not stupid. I mean, he graduated from an Ivy League school. He has a formable reputation as a crack trial lawyer. He brought down entities throughout Wall Street. They were dancing in the halls when this happened yesterday.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: But long story short, if it`s not stupidity, that only leaves, according to you, the choice of arrogance. What do you mean by that?
SIMON: I mean the arrogance of power. You rise so high, you have such an elevated opinion of yourself, you think you`re holier than thou, and really, you`re holier than nobody. Then you think you`re invulnerable. We see time and time again reform politician after reform politician gets caught in an act of criminality or ill-doing, and they`re astonished because they know they`re good and they can`t believe that anyone would think ill of them. They think there are special rules for them, and there are not special rules for them.
GRACE: To Daniel Gross, "Moneybox" columnist with "Slate" magazine. Daniel, thank you for being with us. Daniel, I`m trying to get a handle on -- we`ve got this $80,000 figure floating around that he spent on hookers. All right. That`s a whole Pandora`s box right there. But let just look at the evidence. At this juncture, how far back do you believe they have looked?
What I`m getting at, Daniel Gross, is when you don`t know a horse, look at his track record. You want to know how much he`s spent over the lifetime of his political career on hookers, look at this segment of time and back time it to the beginning of his political career. So what are we dealing with, Daniel Gross?
DANIEL GROSS, SLATE.COM: Well, the reporting I`ve seen says that he started using this particular service in the middle of 2007. So if that`s $80,000 over the course of seven or eight months, and you want to multiply that -- but you know, it`s quite possible that this just started relatively recently. If, as Roger was saying, this is a byproduct of his hubris, his arrogance, his sense of invulnerability -- you know, he was -- five or six years ago was not all that well known. He had lost a couple of elections. He was getting his feet wet in New York as attorney general.
And it`s literally within the last five years, when he started busting all the Wall Street people, when the press, including people like myself, started to lionize him as the scourge of Wall Street, redeeming investors after the dot-com meltdowns -- you know, it`s really only within the last few year that he was sort of carried aloft and stormed, you know, by a very large margin to victory in Albany.
GRACE: Right now, we`re showing you a shot of inmate -- excuse me -- Governor Spitzer dressed up in a tuxedo. That`s a pretty nice tuxedo, maybe Armani. I don`t know. Beautiful, gorgeous, intelligent wife.
To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor. If he were anybody else, he wouldn`t be walking around in that tuxedo right now. As I say, he`d have ink on his fingers. Why no charges, Eleanor? What`s the hold-up?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I`m wondering if maybe they`re dotting all their I`s and crossing their T`s because...
GRACE: Hello! It`s the IRS.
DIXON: Exactly.
GRACE: They did that two times over!
DIXON: And they`re going to do it, and if they`re getting ready to come down with an indictment, how much better would it be, then, for the press to be aware of his impending arrest and to be able to catch that on film. Maybe it`d be better to see him in an orange jumpsuit than in his tuxedo.
GRACE: Let`s look at the reality of any actual criminal charges being filed against him. Let`s unleash the lawyers. You`ve already met Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor out of Atlanta. Pam Hayes, defense attorney, New York, and Ray Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Ray, are there going to be criminal charges?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I think so. I think that there`s a whole host of charges, not just the solicitation of prostitution, which is just a misdemeanor. We`ve got this federal Mann Act violation of bringing a prostitute across state lines for the illegal act.
But more importantly, what the IRS is looking at are these structuring charges. That`s federal code 5324, which if you use methods of avoiding detection by trying to transfer large sums of money, usually $5,000 or more, for an illegal act, it could be up to a five-year federal penalty. And if it`s more than $100,000 of structuring in a 12-month period, it can go up to a 10-year penalty. That`s why the amount...
GRACE: You know, I like the way you say over a $100,000 of structuring. You mean transferring money to hire hookers.
GIUDICE: That`s right. Well, that`s right. But technically, it`s called "structuring." And that`s why going back to how much and how long, it actually is very relevant.
GRACE: Pam Hayes, what about it? Criminal charges? Yes, no.
PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think they`re probably thinking about it. But in their quest to bring down the great governor of the state of New York, they`re going to have to worry about the other johns on that list. This is not just Eliot Spitzer. He`s just the most famous one that anybody has tagged so far. There are a lot of other people that are involved in this investigation, and we`re just going to have to wait and see...
GRACE: Wait for what? Why?
HAYES: ... who they pull up. Wait -- you`ve got to wait for the federal government to charge somebody. It doesn`t make any sense if they`re not going to charge anyone. We`ve got to wait to see who gets charged.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, question. We know Spitzer is the focus of this investigation. He`s already apologized, which in most court cases, some type of an admission. Why isn`t he being treated like every other john out there on Broadway? That`s what is wrong right now! He is getting preferential treatment because of who he is, Eleanor Dixon!
DIXON: Well, I think you hit the nail right on the head, Nancy. Of course. It`s the way it always is. But remember, maybe we`re going to see a mighty man really falling now with these potential charges of solicitation and the financial charges. And hopefully, he`s going to get hit hard with this.
GRACE: But the reality is, Ray Giudice, you know the feds as well as I do.
GIUDICE: Yes.
GRACE: They would never have come forward, nobody would have even heard about this complaint unless they were ready to pounce.
GIUDICE: They`ve got their...
GRACE: You know how long it takes them to put together a case!
GIUDICE: They`ve got their case in a can, so to speak. And it may even be a sealed indictment ready to be announced. I mean, realistically, I think they want to see if Spitzer`s going to step down, give him maybe a chance to do that. Look, there may be some friendships going on. But I think Eleanor is right on target. They`re going to arrest him. They`re going to prosecute him. And quite frankly, I represent regular folks who get charged in these kind of things. They have to pay lawyers. They have to do time. And they have their record besmudged. And it`s only fair the powerful and the mighty are treated the same way. He deserves an adequate defense, that being said.
GRACE: Well, and the reality, though -- very quickly, Pam Hayes, before we start our calls tonight -- usually, the johns don`t get prosecuted, the hookers get prosecuted. Why? Because it`s easier for the cops to make a legitimate case by doing a sting on a hooker than it is to actually catch the john in the act with a hooker. But when you do catch one, they are prosecuted. And it sounds like they`ve got Eliot Spitzer dead to rights.
HAYES: They probably do have him dead to rights, but this is not a prostitution case. This is...
GRACE: Says you!
(CROSSTALK)
HAYES: Nancy, this is a RICO action. You don`t think they`re going through this...
GRACE: Who do you think Kristen is?
HAYES: ... whole thing just for a misdemeanor...
GRACE: No.
HAYES: ... in criminal court. No.
GRACE: But the two are not...
HAYES: This is about a felony case.
GRACE: ... mutually exclusive.
HAYES: They don`t even generally...
GRACE: Eleanor...
HAYES: ... prosecute men...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Eleanor, the two are not exclusive.
DIXON: Exactly. And look again, what somebody said, look at the money. The money trail led right to Eliot Spitzer, and he`s going to pay the consequences. This is about prostitution. It`s wrong ethically and it`s wrong legally, as well as the money issues.
GRACE: I want to go out to the lines. Tad in Pennsylvania. Hi, Tad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Long-time listener. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a question. I want to know if, allegedly, the $80,000 was from his own pockets or from the taxpayers`.
GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the $80,000 that he allegedly used from his own pockets or from the taxpayers.
GRACE: Oh, that is a big concern. What about it, Roger Simon? Is any of this taxpayer money?
SIMON: The evidence so far, if you can call it evidence -- the accusations so far, to the best of my knowledge, don`t include any accusation that he used anything but his own money, not even campaign money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPITZER: I have acted in a way that violates my obligations to my family, that violates my or any sense of right and wrong. I apologize first and most importantly to my family. I apologize to the public, whom I promised better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like it`s only a matter of time before New York governor Eliot Spitzer resigns. A source tells CNN it`s a question of when, not if. A top staffer says aides for the governor are in transition talks with the lieutenant governor`s office. Spitzer`s reputation was shattered yesterday when "The New York Times" reported he could be linked to a high-priced prostitution ring, a federal wiretap leading to accusations that he paid for a high-priced call girl. He has not been charged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Eighty thousand dollars in hookers? Whew! Wow!
Out to the lines. Chrystal in New Jersey. Hi, Chrystal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`d like to say you`re an idol for me to become a reporter.
GRACE: Thank you very much. I kind of think of myself as a lawyer, not a reporter, but I`m going to take that as a compliment, Miss Chrystal. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I know the prostitute can`t go over states. I`m wondering if this prostitute can get in trouble, too?
GRACE: What about it, Eleanor Dixon? I think you just generally get busted for prostitution. If you cross a state line, does that enhance your penalty in any way?
DIXON: Not necessarily, Nancy. She`s going to be prosecuted probably in federal court, but for prostitution.
GRACE: Well, something`s cooking, Robby in New York, because we haven`t seen an arrest of Spitzer or Kristen, the woman in question. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, I love your show. My question was, where was his security detail when this all went down? And are they obligated to report it?
GRACE: It`s my understanding -- to Richard Roth, CNN correspondent standing by outside Spitzer`s New York headquarters -- that he ducked the security detail. How did he do that? And what is their obligation?
ROTH: I don`t know exactly. It hasn`t been described. How did Spitzer get away from his security detail? An aide to former New York governor Pataki said troopers are outside the governor`s hotel room at all times. Spitzer, we know, took another room in the name of George Fox, the name of a friend of his who has no part in this scandal, apparently, and then snuck out and went to that room, I think on the 8th floor of the Mayflower Hotel in Washington.
GRACE: Whew!
ROTH: So somehow, he avoided the troops, and there`s likely going to be a separate investigation, we`ll find out did the troopers keep their mouths shut when we don`t know what went on behind closed doors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When her co-worker asked if client nine, quote, "would ask you to do things that you may not think were safe," Kristen replied, "I have a way of dealing with that. I`d be, like, Listen, dude, you really want the sex?" Now, the encounter took about two hours on February 13, the day before Valentine`s Day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Eighty thousand dollars! I just can`t say it enough. I can hardly take it in. Out to Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. Eighty thousand dollars that we know of on hookers? What -- what is that?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: You know, it`s so tempting to want to analyze this. It`s a split-off part of his sexuality he`s expressing with them that he cannot express with his wife. But I think that`s all too high-falutin`. If he was my patient, the fact that he subsidized a criminal enterprise, I would be thinking about this through the lens of criminality and sociopathy. And I would be wondering if the fact that he wanted to bust people involved in prostitution and in banking fraud was because, on some level, he had a deep and abiding fascination with it himself. So sometimes contempt and disgust for others can actually cover up a deep and abiding fascination.
GRACE: You know, Roger Simon with "Politico," many people, many crime fighters looked up to Spitzer. What do you predict is going to happen?
SIMON: I predict what is probably going on right now is that he`s trying to plea bargain his way out of it, or he`s having his lawyers plea bargain his way out of it and simply escape criminal prosecution in terms of a resignation.
GRACE: When we come back, the mystery surrounding a couple with ties to Atlanta and South Carolina who vanished into thin air. Breaking news tonight regarding the person of interest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators found the Calverts` missing Mercedes Benz at a parking lot at Palmetto Dunes resort area. But the Calverts were not inside and police found no evidence indicating what happened to them. While the Calverts` friends pray the couple turns up safely, the investigation is back to square one. The FBI and South Carolina law enforcement officials have now joined the search. Still, no one has seen John or Elizabeth Calvert and their voice mails have gone unanswered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A couple who had worked their whole lives to attain the American dream now missing. Tonight, breaking news in the couple`s disappearance.
Out to Lori Mack, reporter with the Metro Networks.
Lori, what`s the latest?
LORI MACK, REPORTER, METRO NETWORS: Well, Nancy, Dennis Gerwing, who was -- is described by the Beaufort County Deputy Sheriff`s Office as a person of interest in the disappearance of John and Elizabeth Calvert, was found dead this afternoon in his upstairs apartment. He was found in the bathroom. His attorney actually found him and called 911 around 3:58 this afternoon.
So the person of interest in the disappearance of John and Elizabeth Calvert has been found dead of an apparent suicide, authorities say.
GRACE: Lori, how did he, Dennis Ray Gerwing, age 54, become a person of interest? What do we know about him?
MACK: Well, we know, according to authorities, that he was the last person to see the Calverts. And he -- according to authorities, he is a business associate of the Calverts. So they say he was the last person to see them alive, and they describe him as a business associate.
CARLSON: Well, what was -- what were the Calverts` business?
MACK: Well, the -- John Calvert, he manages properties. He owns -- it`s called the Harbour Town Resort in Hilton Head Island -- on Hilton Head Island. Excuse me. He owns that and he manages those properties.
Elizabeth Calvert is a business attorney.
GRACE: I want to go to Mike Brock, friend and former colleague of Elizabeth Calvert.
Mike, looking at the evidence from this vantage point, the fact that the person of interest, 54-year-old Dennis Ray Gerwing, has committed suicide, we`re just learning this right now as we go to air, does not look good for the Calverts. He left behind two notes. We don`t know what those notes say anymore -- say as of yet.
Mike, what can you tell us about the couple?
MIKE BROCK, FRIEND AND FMR. COLLEAGUE OF NANCY CALVERT: Nancy, I worked with Liz when we were both at UPS back in Atlanta in the mid `90s and I can tell you that she was a very professional corporate attorney. She was very candid, very punctual, you know, in our business was all about time sensitive material, and she was the epitome of that. So for her to come -- to go missing and for no word, no communication, that`s just totally unlike her. I don`t know John.
GRACE: Let`s go to Jeff Moore, chief of investigation with Blue Moon Investigations.
Jeff, the public had just learned about the person of interest. And before we could really find out that much about him, he has committed suicide. Thoughts?
JEFF MOORE, CHIEF OF INVESTIGATIONS, BLUE MOON INVESTIGATIONS: Well, you know, I mean, I think as soon as we heard he wasn`t cooperating with the Sheriff`s Department and other agencies, I think he was a big time subject of interest.
GRACE: Interesting his lawyer called 911. When 911 paramedics EMT arrived, they find a person of interest dead.
Lori Mack, what can you tell us about the actual disappearance of the Calverts? What do we know?
MACK: The Calverts were last seen Monday, March 3rd. They had just left a business meeting around 5:30. Now, they were scheduled to meet, according to reports, they were scheduled to attend another meeting. And also at that other meeting was Elizabeth Calvert`s brother. When she didn`t -- when they didn`t show up to that meeting, Elizabeth Calvert`s brother called 911 and reported them missing.
GRACE: What about any clues? I understand they actually left their cat on their boat?
MACK: Yes, the cat was left on the boat. They also owned a dog. The Calverts have no children. They own a dog. And they say the dog is in an Atlanta kennel because they have a residence in Atlanta and they also live on a yacht on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina.
GRACE: Lori, exactly, exactly what time and where were they last seen?
MACK: They were last seen -- last on March 3rd around 5:30 p.m.
GRACE: At?
MACK: At a business meeting. They were last seen at a business meeting.
GRACE: Location?
MACK: They -- I`m not exactly sure. It was -- I believe it was at one of the businesses that they owned.
GRACE: Meeting along with?
MACK: It was a meeting along with business associates. It had to do with their business.
GRACE: Was Dennis Ray Gerwing one of them?
MACK: Yes. He was -- according to authorities, Gerwing was the last person to see the Calverts.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Heather in Georgia. Hi, Heather. I think I`ve got Heather with me. Heather, are you there? OK. When we can re- hook up with Heather, let me know, Elizabeth.
I want to go to Dr. Stephen J. Cina, deputy chief medical examiner, joining us out of Miami. The first thought is to search the waters. If they were in the water, what could we learn from their bodies if that be the case, doctor?
DR. STEPHEN J. CINA, DEPUTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, decomposition does progress in water, albeit not as fast as on land. The water temperature around there is 60 degrees this time of year so much of the skin should still be preserved. Any kind of penetrating injuries such as a gunshot wound or stab wound should be identifiable plus bullets would show up on x-ray. Blunt trauma would also be fairly easy to recognize.
But due to the decomposition, you may lose some subtle findings such as from suffocation or smothering, but that would be unlikely if two people are found dead.
GRACE: We are standing by for the latest. We now learn in the case of this disappearing couple, the Calverts, a beloved couple both in Atlanta and there on Hilton Head, the person of interest has committed suicide. Also police are stating they believe other people in the community know more about the case. Does that suggest co-persons of interest? As soon as we learn, we will alert you.
Everyone, when we come back, is there a break in the case of student body president, UNC Chapel Hill, 22-year-old Eve Carson found dead, multiple gunshot wounds?
Everyone, the devastation left behind by 2005`s Hurricane Katrina continues today. The Christ United Methodist Church lending support to Katrina victims, New Orleans, trying desperately to get families back into homes. In the shadows of the Superdome, the Broadmoor community in particular sustaining extensive damage, left under 10 feet of water for weeks. Carpentry, painting, plumbing, flooring, Christ Methodist also providing financial backing. The church raised it themselves. Joining forces with schools, churches, government. For info or to make a donation, please go toBroadmoorimprovement.com.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are examining new surveillance photos that may show the man suspected of killing a University of North Carolina student. Take a look at this. They believe it is the same man photographed trying to use that card at an ATM machine. Those were pictures we showed you yesterday.
22-year-old Eve Carson was the North Carolina student body president. She was shot to death near the university campus last week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Is there a break in the case regarding a 22-year-old president of the student body, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill?
Out to Gurnal Scott with WPTF Radio. Gurnal, what`s the latest?
GURNAL SCOTT, REPORTER, WPTF RADIO: Well, the latest is it`s been a very quiet day for the Chapel Hill Police Department as it relates to recent days when they`ve had pretty much a lot to say. But really the investigation process is going on right now. They`re staying within themselves right now trying to find out as much as they can. And we do know some of the specifics that they are looking at. They`ve retrieved, as we have told you, the laptop that belonged to Eve Carson, her cell phone, USB storage device.
Basically what they`re trying to do at this point is use some of the information that they can glean from those devices, perhaps try to go back in time and retrace her final steps to see where she was going, maybe who she talked to before she was on the way to where she was going. And right now that is what they`re doing. They`ve processed the car. They`ve done that themselves. And they`ve had the state bureau of investigation check behind them on that.
And they are trying to, again, get as much forensic evidence as they can to try to place the person that we see in those surveillance photos perhaps to the scene of that crime and perhaps link that person to the murder of Eve Carson.
GRACE: Here`s my understanding of what is new tonight. Police releasing more photos showing the suspect trying to use Carson`s ATM card. Also, police looking for a second man they believe that was in the vehicle with the suspect. Third, police trying to determine that the hat worn by the suspect signifies any type of gang affiliation. Take a hard look at these photos.
Back to Gurnal Scott with WPTF Radio. In this store, it looks like a 7-Eleven with the suspect walking around. There he is, I believe, trying to use the ATM card, but in the store where are those photos coming from, Gurnal?
SCOTT: Well, those photos, I believe, are coming from, and police haven`t been very specific about this, but they have portable ATMs in those stores. There may have been a camera mounted up there on the ATM or perhaps even above that ATM in that convenience store.
Again, police aren`t saying precisely where this convenience store is or the name of the convenience store. They are waiting to see if they can -- and once they get the suspect that they are trying to get, they will ask those questions then. And they are trying.
GRACE: OK.
SCOTT: .to protect the integrity of that investigation.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Pam Hayes, Ray Giudice.
Eleanor Dixon, certainly by now law enforcement know what is convenience store, what 7-Eleven is pictured, yes?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, because that`s where they got the surveillance tape from. So they have to know the store but they`re keeping that information to themselves. And these are actually pretty good surveillance photos. I`ve been surprised to see them. I think they`re going to get that person.
GRACE: Do we know, Gurnal, if the suspect was successful in using her ATM card?
SCOTT: Again, once -- in the news conference that was held yesterday, Chief Brian Curran said he wasn`t going to give out that piece of information. All he would say is that the person in that photo tried, indeed, to use that ATM card. He would not say, though, if he was able to actually get money out of that machine.
GRACE: Back out to the lawyers, Pam Hayes, Ray Giudice, Eleanor Dixon.
To Ray Giudice, if you`re the defense attorney in this case, there`s your man right there on video. Think he should go ahead and turn himself in.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well.
GRACE: .in exchange for not getting the death penalty?
GIUDICE: Well, if I could get him into my office and I`m sure what his story sounds like is that guy number two is actually the killer.
GRACE: Right.
GIUDICE: And that my client only wound up using the ATM machine, which is a theft defense and, of course, he would roll on defendant number two. So that`s what I would envision happening.
GRACE: Well, you must be clairvoyant. What about it, Pam Hayes?
PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think so. That`s what you want to do. You want to just make out that all you have here is receiving stolen property, using stolen property, and he`s just the front man and the real killer wanted to keep off camera and was sitting in the back of the car. And I`m just.
GRACE: The real killer.
HAYES: Yes. I`m interested in knowing.
GRACE: Johnny Cochran there.
HAYES: Does he have a name?
GRACE: You`re channeling. You`re channeling.
HAYES: Who is he? Who is he? We want to know who he is so we can get some people to start sweating him.
GRACE: OK. Eleanor, you know what this is shaping up to be? A little bit of this. I would put both of them on trial if the evidence pans out and let them blame each other right in front of the jury. What do you think?
DIXON: I love that. And you remember, you use your gold old party- to-a-crime defense. You`re in it just like you`re a member of the basketball team. Doesn`t matter if you`re on the sidelines cheering or, you know, making the winning basket, you`re still a member of the team.
GRACE: To Jeff Moore with Blue Moon Investigations, how do you go about finding these two suspects?
MOORE: Well, you know, you`re going to have to continue to just search those videos. You`re going to have to put out those videos all across the news and the papers. And sooner or later I think they also have informants within these gangs. Somebody`s going to talk and when they do, they`re going to get busted.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Stephen J. Cina, chief deputy medical examiner joining us out of Miami. Police are looking for a second man in the vehicle. Can you determine, based on Carson`s injuries, whether there were two people involved?
CINA: Well, as you and I have both seen, multiple gunshot wound cases are commonly caused by one assailant. Of course, they can be caused by multiple assailants. What would be really useful in this case is to find out if different types of bullets were recovered from the body, if any different types of casings were recovered from the scene. With that kind of evidence you`re bringing two weapons into play which highly raises the possibility of two different shooters.
GRACE: I`m still betting on one shooter, two perpetrators.
Out to Bethany Marshall. Dr. Marshall, this guy or guys, clearly has no fear about going and using her ATM card or trying to use it. Don`t care if they actually got money out or not. Irrelevant. But what does that suggest psychologically speaking? What does it suggest?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, let`s see. He stole her life, then he stole her car, and now he`s steeling her money. We could say it`s the worst parasite in the world, we could say it sociopathy. But the way he stole her life, he shot her in the temple, he stole her car for a day and then abandons it? What is he taking 20 dollar bills out of her ATM?
The reasons for the theft are so shallow and so inconsequential it shows complete and utter disregard for the lives of others. And the wish to take that goes on and on, what is he going to do if he doesn`t have a life in jail? How many more lives and dollar bills is he going to take?
GRACE: Out to the lines, Mark in Virginia. Hi, Mark.
MARK, FROM VIRGINIA: Yes, ma`am. How are you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
MARK: I want to ask you if he`s convicted of this why shouldn`t he get the death penalty?
GRACE: Well, I can`t think of any reason.
MARK: OK.
GRACE: Let`s throw it to the defense attorneys.
Pam Hayes, in a nutshell?
HAYES: Well, you have to see what the statute says. Maybe a felony murder isn`t about a death penalty in that particular jurisdiction. I don`t remember what it is in North Carolina, but I`m just not sure.
GRACE: I see. So that sounded like a lot of legalese. Give it to me from the heart, Giudice.
GIUDICE: Well, I mean, they could try to get the death penalty but our Mr. Cribs up in Ohio just walked on the death penalty, too. So, you know, I mean folks got to understand, it takes two. It takes an indictment for capital and a jury to bring back the death penalty.
GRACE: To Andrew in Oregon. Hi, Andrew.
ANDREW, FROM OREGON: Hi, Nancy. I`m wondering why they don`t already know who this guy is. Most likely he`s got a record. Why aren`t they looking through mug shots and like, you know, trying to place the face?
GRACE: You know, Gurnal Scott, he has an excellent point. Even if it is a juvenile record, you don`t just -- well, typically you don`t. Well, there are exceptions like Scott Peterson and others, suddenly commit a murder, usually graduate to murder, maybe a little carjacking, a little armed robbery leading up to it.
What about it, Gurnal?
SCOTT: Well, that`s right. You usually -- you don`t usually start out in something like this. And judging by the pictures you`re seeing in the latest surveillance photos, it`s not like they don`t have a really good picture to go on that they could possibly go through mug shots and say, here is the person we`re looking for. This could be that person.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE on the hunt for parents who inspire. Now, tonight`s extraordinary parent.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTY OBIE-BARRETT, A FAMILY FOR EVERY CHILD: I knew that I had a bigger calling and a bigger mission and a lot more passion and energy to share. And so I decided to make foster care the focus of my attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raising 12 children, nine of whom are adopted, was not enough for Christy Obie-Barrett.
OBIE-BARRETT: I knew that I wanted to make a bigger impact and I wanted it to be with children and I want it to particularly be with foster kids because it`s just not the kind of life that I think children deserve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With that in mind, Christy started A Family for Every Child, an Oregon based nonprofit. The older foster child becomes, the more difficult it can be to find that child a permanent home. Christy`s mission is to change that.
OBIE-BARRETT: The only really true way to solve the problems that children experience in foster care is to provide them a permanent family. And that is our goal of everything we do in all of our programs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Although just a few years old, A Family for Every Child has helped dozens of local children find adoptive homes.
OBIE-BARRETT: All of the wonderful things that hear, all of the success stories, all of the times that you reach out to families and they are so grateful is more than any money I could ever see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant James Craig, 26, Hollywood, South Carolina, killed, Iraq, on a third tour. Awarded a Bronze Star, Purple Heart and two army commendation medals. Loved family, God, country, making others laugh and pen-pal letters. Dreamed of making a difference and starting a family with his new bride. Leaves behind parents Joel and Phyllis, four sisters and widow Natalie.
James Craig, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but most of all to you for inviting all of us into your home. And tonight our thoughts and prayers go out to friend of the show and one of the best defense lawyers in the state of New York, Sandy Shift. Stay strong.
See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
