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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Spitzer: Scandal and Resignation; Will the Girl Involved be Considered a Victim

Aired March 12, 2008 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: Tonight, crash and burn -- a high power career derails. Eliot Spitzer resigns the governor's seat, as scandal continues to swirl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIOT SPITZER (D), FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: I'm deeply sorry that I did not live up to what was expected of me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Why did a man who had it all risk it all with prostitutes?

Plus, a former sex worker takes us inside the world of dangerous liaisons.

Powerful men, poor choices, sex and its consequences, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Our guest in the first segment in Albany will be New York State Senator Joe Bruno. He's the Senate majority leader, the well-known Republican, a former -- well, he's a former foe, because the governor is about to say good-bye, as of Monday.

And in New York City is Diana Williams, anchor for WABC TV.

Before we talk with the Senator and with Diana, let's see and hear what the governor had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: In the past few days, I have begun to atone for my private failings with my wife, Silda, my children and my entire family. The remorse I feel will always be with me. Words cannot describe how grateful I am for the love and compassion they have shown me.

From those to whom much is given, much is expected. I have been given much -- the love of my family, the faith and trust of the people of New York and the chance to lead this state. I am deeply sorry that I did not live up to what was expected of me.

To every New Yorker and to all those who believed in what I tried to stand for, I sincerely apologize. I look at my time as governor with a sense of what might have been. But I also know that as a public servant, I and the remarkable people with whom I worked, have accomplished a great deal. There is much more to be done and I cannot allow my private failings to disrupt the people's work.

Over the course of my public life, I have insisted -- I believe correctly -- that people, regardless of their position or power, take responsibility for their conduct. I can and will ask no less of myself. For this reason, I am resigning from the office of governor.

At Lieutenant Governor Paterson's request, the resignation will be effective Monday, March 17, a date that he believes will permit an orderly transition. I go forward with the belief, as others have said, that as human beings, our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time that we fall.

As I leave public life, I will first do what I need to do to help and heal myself and my family. Then I will try once again, outside of politics, to serve the common good and to move toward the ideals and solutions which I believe can build a future of hope and opportunity for us and for our children.

I hope all of New York will join my prayers for my friend, David Paterson, as he embarks on his new mission. And I thank the public once again for the privilege of service. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Any follow-up to that, Diana?

DIANA WILLIAMS, ANCHOR, WABC-TV, NEW YORK: Well, Larry I think I've now seen that about 10 times today. And every time I see it --

KING: Me, too. Enough already.

WILLIAMS: Well, a little bit of that. But it still makes me sad. I think New Yorkers are feeling very sad on this day because they know that this was a man who did want to make for great change in this state and wanted to do good. And he has fallen so far from such a high place.

KING: Senator Bruno, is this -- is the anger at a crime or at hypocrisy?

SEN. JOSEPH BRUNO (R), MAJORITY LEADER, NEW YORK STATE SENATE: I think at the hypocrisy. He set himself above everyone else here in this state when he campaigned, promised everything. And, you know, it's truly -- today I think he made one of the best statements I've ever heard him make -- appropriate and proper.

But, Larry, he acts like an angry person generally. He'd rather fight than get along, it seems. And he's sort of governed by intimidation, by threatening. And that's too bad, because as you said, he had everything in the world going for him and here we are.

So he's got to collect his life. And, hopefully, he can do that for himself, for his wife, for his children for his family and just put a life back together.

KING: By the way, "The New York Times" has now identified Kristen -- that's the high-priced prostitute who met with Governor Spitzer at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, D.C. .

Twenty-two-year-old Ashley Dupre is the name. "The Times" refers to her MySpace page, where she writes about leaving a broken home at 17, coming to New York, settling in Manhattan to pursue a music career.

Diana, you know the New York business -- news business as well as anybody. How big is this going to get?

WILLIAMS: Oh, big -- big. In fact, you know, there are crews out at her apartment in the Flatiron District. She lives on 25th Street. She's got an apartment there. There are people outside that building right now trying to track her down.

Her family lives in Southern New Jersey. There are people who are approaching the family's house at this moment, I can bet, who are trying to get information from her parents.

This is a 22-year-old girl who talks about a love of music on MySpace. She's a confused young woman and she got involved, allegedly, in prostitution.

KING: One of the first major things that hit Spitzer after he took office and he came in under his golden arc and tremendous vote was when the Attorney General Cuomo revealed that he had somehow police following you around, Bruno. Where is that story, Senator?

BRUNO: Well, it's before the district attorney here in Albany and before the Ethics Commission, the State Ethics Commission. And they're investigating all of the allegations. And it's apparent that because he kind of admitted that he had the state police track me and report on what I was doing, with the intent, really, of getting me out of office.

And that's kind of what's unfortunate and what's too bad, because we could have governed. He could have done some great things. And, who knows, he could have gone on to be president of the United States. So that's what's so disturbing, so unfortunate about all that's going on.

But, Larry, we now -- we have to move on in New York State. We have to govern. David Paterson is going to take over Monday. And so I'm looking forward to really getting on with our lives. I think what's going on in his life is going to take on kind of a life of its own and we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

KING: A couple of other quick things. Diana, do you think he may have targeted?

WILLIAMS: Do I think he was targeted? It's a big question, Larry, that a lot of people are asking, whether he was or is targeted. We'll certainly be seeking that out and trying to find that information.

KING: Is a part of you, Senator Bruno, feeling very good?

BRUNO: No. You know what? Actually, I'm not feeling good at all -- not for him, not for the 19 million people here in New York, for his family.

This is disturbing. It's not in anyone's best interests. It's just plain sad. So, you know, hopefully, we all get on with our lives and this just becomes kind of a bad chapter in what's gone on here in the annals of New York State politics.

WILLIAMS: Yes, Larry --

KING: Do you get along with Governor Paterson?

BRUNO: I get along extremely well with him. He was the minority leader in the senate while I've been majority leader. We communicate in a very collegial way and we get along just fine --

KING: Good.

BRUNO: So I see us partnering and getting some results for the people here in New York. And we're going to show that the Republicans, who control the majority in the senate, can govern, can do what's right for the people of the state...

KING: That's good to hear.

BRUNO: ...get results for the people of this state.

KING: Diana, you were going to say?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I think there, as Joe Bruno said early this morning, it's time to move forward. And I think people in New York do feel that.

I think they feel a great relief about what happened today, that the governor finally came out, after 48 hours, and offered up his resignation. Eighty-five percent of New Yorkers said they thought he should do it and then he did it.

KING: Yes.

WILLIAMS: You know, the real question now -- and it's a matter for the rest of this week of kind of tying up the loose ends, of trying to get a better understanding of, you know, this prostitution ring and also the fact of whether or not he should be charged. Because right now about 64 percent of New Yorkers do think that he should face charges for this.

KING: They do?

Thank you both very much, New York State Senator Joe Bruno and Diana Williams of WABC TV.

BRUNO: Good night, Larry.

KING: Thank you guys.

We've got a lot to cover tonight and we're just getting started. We'll see you when LARRY KING LIVE returns. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: In the past few days, I have begun to atone for my private failings with my wife Silda, my children and my entire family. The remorse I feel will always be with me. Words cannot describe how grateful I am for the love and compassion they have shown me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We have an outstanding panel to go at it in the next two segments.

In New York is Linda Fairstein, the former prosecutor. Her "New York Times" best-seller -- she's always on the list. Her newest is "Killer Heat." Also in New York is Dina Matos McGreevey, the estranged wife of the former Democratic governor of New Jersey, Jim McGreevey, who resigned in disgrace, you will remember.

Here in Los Angeles, Dr. Drew Pinsky, the addiction expert, host of VH-1's "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew".

And in Washington is Detective Mark Gilkey, a D.C. police detective. He's worked prostitution cases for 26 years. He's not involved, however, in the Spitzer case.

Linda, you worked with Eliot Spitzer. How does this hit you?

LINDA FAIRSTEIN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I was as stunned as everyone. Many people knew him better than I, but were colleagues together in the Manhattan D.A. 's office in the '80s for a number of years.

We were both bureau chiefs and so worked together frequently. I've spoken to many, many former colleagues yesterday and today, and however this piece of the governor was compartmentalized, nobody saw this side of him. Nobody saw this coming.

KING: Did you see that side of your husband, Dina?

DINA MATOS MCGREEVEY, HUSBAND RESIGNED AFTER AFFAIR, SCANDAL: No, I did not. You know, I was as stunned as I believe Mrs. Spitzer was and the rest of the residents of the State of New York. You know, the -- it seems that both of them were leading double lives that the people even closest to them did not know.

They were actually -- in my husband's case, you know, for his entire life he was leading a double life. And he did a great job. He -- I don't know how he was able to compartmentalize. And, you know, he stayed on script and that's why he never deviated. And I guess that's the only way to be able to lead a secret life.

KING: Dr. Pinsky, those who walk the double line, how do they do it? DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION EXPERT, HOST, "CELEBRITY REHAB": Well, I actually don't know. It's amazing that they're able to do the things they do. But I've seen people be able to hide unbelievable things from the people closest to them.

And the way it usually happens is -- it's not the way people think, that they're somehow protesting too much and that they're compensating for something they feel guilty about. That, actually, I rarely see.

What I see -- and I think is the case here with Mr. Spitzer's case, Governor Spitzer, which is that they -- they tend to have difficulty experiencing other people's feelings. They tend to be very aggressive and sometimes even ruthless, as he was in his case. And they really are out for their own sake.

And when they get the power that they're looking for, oftentimes they sort of feel special and excepted from the kinds of things that they're expecting of everybody else and they minimize it, decide that it's OK for them, and they just sort of rationalize it and off they go.

KING: What about the person who chooses the prostitute over the affair?

PINSKY: You know, I don't know that we can generalize about that...

KING: It's got to be different, though, right?

PINSKY: It is a little different. In my world, it tends to be the people that are a little more sexually compulsed, that are a little more -- a little more about unregulated aggression, that kind of thing. Not that they're -- you know, people -- I've heard some people on some of the talk shows talk about how Mrs. Spitzer's wife was not giving enough intimacy and caretaking. That's nonsense. I'm sorry, that's flat out wrong.

The fact is these guys are doing these things almost in an addictive way. They're not -- I'm not saying they're necessarily an addict, but it's something walled off, separate and they're pursuing it because they think they can and it has very little to do with relationships.

KING: Detective Gilkey, do you pursue prostitution as hard as you would armed robbery?

DET. MARK GILKEY, WORKED DEMOCRATIC PROSTITUTION CASES FOR 20 YEARS: I do because that's my career and that's what I've done for 26 years. And it's just -- prostitution is not a victimless crime. There is victims in prostitution. And the families are a victim here.

KING: So the people who say, with regard to the Spitzer case, what did he do wrong, you disagree with?

GILKEY: Yes. You know, I really wouldn't want to talk about it without the facts of the case or anything.

KING: But from what you know.

GILKEY: From what I know -- you know, I feel sorry unfortunate for the family, society as a whole, the constituency he represented.

KING: Linda, is there a victim in prostitution cases?

FAIRSTEIN: Oh, yes. I agree with the detective completely. So many of the young women who go into this -- and I think it's true in the story that Kristen's telling so far -- have themselves been victims of abuse -- child abuse, sexual abuse.

The age of these girls -- I mean 22, that really shocked me when I just learned that coming into the studio tonight. I didn't know what Kristen's age was. So at what age did she start and become involved?

And although this is just speculation at this point, there's a lot of talk about for how long the governor has been involved in this kind of conduct. And so that might bring into question ages of the women involved. There certainly are victims in these cases.

KING: Yes.

We'll take a break and we'll be right back with more. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: From those to whom much is given, much is expected. I have been given much -- the love of my family, the faith and trust of the people of New York and the chance to lead this state. I am deeply sorry that I did not live up to what was expected of me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Dina McGreevey, anger is obvious in this. How angry do you think Mrs. Spitzer is tonight?

MCGREEVEY: Well, I don't think she's at that stage yet. I think --

KING: No?

MCGREEVEY: I think she's still in shock. I watched her on Monday and I watched her again today as she stood next to him. And I could see the pain and the anguish on her face. I think it will be a few days before she gets to the next stage, which is anger.

She's in shock. She's confused. She appears to be in a state of disbelief. And next will come the anger and, also, the sense of loss. You know, when my husband resigned, I felt as if I were going to attend a funeral without a corpse. And she probably feels the same way. Someone asked me a little bit earlier, what did you make of her outfit today? And the first thing that I thought when I watched her coming out this afternoon was that she was in black -- a symbol of mourning. And I think that's what she's feeling right now. I don't think she's feeling any anger yet. But she'll get there.

KING: But you, I am told, wore powder blue and pearls when you stood by your husband. And that's what she wore the other day. You put any meaning into this or is it absurd?

MCGREEVEY: You know, when I was watching the split screen, I could not believe the resemblance, from the colors that we were wearing, the pearls. And if you look at Governor Spitzer and you looked at Jim, they were wearing the almost identical suit and identical tie.

KING: So we have outfits?

(LAUGHTER)

MCGREEVEY: It's -- you know, it's a real tragedy. And my heart just ached for her when I saw her on the (INAUDIBLE) again today standing (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Drew, what is the governor going through?

PINSKY: You know what, the guys that perpetrate things like this, the men oftentimes feel a deep sense of shame. And it is frightening to them to get anywhere near shame. And so they seem to us to be somewhat Teflon, like they're skating past it.

You don't really feel that he's contrite. It doesn't look like he's feeling the deep sense of shattering that we'd expect for something like this. And sometimes, I have to say -- I don't want to get too histrionic about this, but sometimes these guys, when they actually do feel the shame, hurt themselves.

I mean they really do horrible things because they will -- they build their whole personality around avoiding shame. So it feels as though things are collapsing around them and they're fighting to try to hold it together.

KING: Detective Gilkey, in apprehending -- looking into -- finding prostitutes, how tough are you on the johns?

GILKEY: You attack it from all angles. And it's definitely one of the enforcements. And the johns do -- are -- they do -- they are accepted as in the criminal system. They're part of the solicitation. They face penalties just like the sex workers would.

KING: In Washington, johns are arrested?

GILKEY: Oh, we arrest thousands -- probably approximately about a thousand a year.

KING: No kidding? And it's a misdemeanor, right -- or isn't it? GILKEY: Well, it all depends. But the majority of cases are misdemeanors with johns' arrests, not unless there's involving juveniles or crossing state lines or something of that nature.

KING: Have you run into a prostitution ring, as purported to have taken place here?

GILKEY: We have several prostitution avenues that -- and structures that we're investigating on a daily, weekly basis. Yes. The answer to that question would be yes.

KING: Was it major crime, Linda, when you were in the office?

FAIRSTEIN: Well, it wasn't ever a major crime in New York. Yes, we had rings. We, of course, had things like the Mayflower Madam cases. Because there were prominent individuals involved, because there were money issues, many of those cases received more prominent attention.

Yes, guys are arrested for patronizing prostitutes every day in New York. It's a misdemeanor. I can't think of the last time anybody went to jail for it.

The underage cases are a problem, of course, and are treated very differently, just as the detective said they are. And there may be special circumstances. There are cases in which there's high risk behavior.

And I know the doctor can talk about that, as well. I think it's one of the things, when you asked him the question earlier about why not an affair if you're in a marriage, as opposed to a prostitute -- many of the men who seek these women out are seeking out women who will perform things for a price -- certain kinds of sexual acts that their wives or lovers would not perform.

So I think there are issues in all of these cases. And I don't mean just the governor, but clients one through whatever the number goes to. We're -- reporters and prosecutors will be looking at what the behavior was. That sometimes determines it. Were any of these women hurt?

And, again, I don't mean through the governor. But that, in a prosecutor's decision, would determine what the John would be subject to. You may recall, Larry, and some of your viewers are old enough to remember when we couldn't clean up the streets in New York and Mayor Koch used to read, on the morning paper, the names of Johns who had been arrested on the air and the radio because there really was no other punishment for them. And many of them would be home before their wives, families, bosses, jobs ever knew about it.

KING: I remember that well.

FAIRSTEIN: Um-hmm.

(LAUGHTER)

FAIRSTEIN: So very few resulted in jail time, but there are other means of sort of getting at the problem.

KING: Detective Gilkey, how young have you found young girls?

GILKEY: Unfortunately, I think the youngest that I locked up was 12-years-old.

KING: Whoa! We're just tipping the iceberg here.

Thank you, Detective Gilkey. Thank you, Linda Fairstein.

Dina McGreevey and Dr. Pinsky remain. Two other panelists will join us.

The Spitzer story is a familiar one our next guest can relate. He'll tell about his own fall from grace.

Plus, a former sex worker will offer insights about powerful men and prostitution.

Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: To every New Yorker and to all those who believed in what I tried to stand for, I sincerely apologize. I look at my time as governor with a sense of what might have been. But I also know that as a public servant, I and the remarkable people with whom I worked, have accomplished a great deal. There is much more to be done and I cannot allow my private failings to disrupt the people's work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back.

Dina Matos McGreevey, the estranged wife of the former Democratic Governor of New Jersey Jim McGreevey, remains with us, as does Dr. Drew Pinsky, the addiction expert, host of his own program on VH1.

Joining us now in New York is Tracy Quan, former sex worker, author of the novels "Diary of a Manhattan Call Girl," and diary of a married call girl. Like Dina McGreevey, she has an op-ed in "The New York Times" today headlined Really Dangerous Liaisons.

And in Cincinnati is Mike Allen, criminal defense attorney, former elected official who saw his career crash and burn because of a sex scandal. In 2004, he decided not to seek re-election as a prosecutor for Hamilton County, Ohio following his public admission that he had had a long extra-marital affair with a female colleague.

Mike, during all of it, did you know you were treading on thin ice?

MIKE ALLEN, FORMER OHIO PROSECUTOR: No question about it, Larry, I did. But while it's going on, you just don't think about the consequence. It's obvious that you should, but you don't. And what I did was obviously wrong and I paid a price for it. But while it's happening, you really don't consider the consequences. And I'm certain that's what happened in Governor Spitzer's case.

KING: You think this man who's the governor of the state, who's squeaky clean, has gone into hotels, meeting girls coming down by train from another city, and he thinks things are going to be all right?

ALLEN: I don't think what he was thinking, Larry. I can't get into his head. The only thing I can say is: he didn't consider the consequences of his actions. The consequences made themselves clear today by his resignation.

KING: Nancy Quan, what do you make of this whole story?

TRACY QUAN, FORMER SEX WORKER: Tracy.

KING: I'm sorry, Tracy.

QUAN: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that I had a lot to do with escort services when I was very young. I was 17 years old. I was making a rational decision because I was trying to keep a roof over my head. I don't think it was particularly rational for Governor Spitzer to be doing this. Do you see what I mean?

He's like -- he's a certain age. He's a certain kind of guy. He should be dealing with a private Madame. He shouldn't be exposing himself to this type of risk. And look at all the other people whose lives are affected.

A 22-year-old girl who is just getting started in life has to deal with this onslaught of media attention. When I was a 22-year-old sex worker, I was building a business, and I was able to see five clients a day. But I could never have dealt with this kind of a crisis. It would have blown me away.

KING: Did you think, Tracy, what you were doing was wrong?

QUAN: No, no. But I'm talking not so much about morality but the whole private/public thing. You can be very competent in private situations. But this lady Kristin, Ashley, she has to deal with a ridiculously public situation that's thrust on her that she wasn't preparing for. That's very different.

KING: Is it not a moral question, Dr. Pinsky?

PINSKY: I try not to look at these things as right and wrong. We can certainly make that case. But the fact is that people suffer. Although Tracy makes the case that she was building a business, the fact is when I deal with these women, when I treat them later, they are completely void of any affect, any feeling about what they are doing.

And when you begin to get them in touch with their real feelings -- again, they're almost all, as Linda said in the last segment, almost always abuse survivors. When they begin to have real feelings, they can't do what they're doing anymore, because it's too painful. It's too humiliating. There's all sorts of feelings that they have.

As the prosecutor was just saying, when he's doing these things, he has no feelings about them. He doesn't think about them. He's in denial. That's how people maintain this.

The rationalization is, it's just me. I'm special. I know what's right and wrong. It's not a big deal. We have all kinds of ways of thinking about it. But the fact is, they don't think much when they're doing these behaviors. They're in a form of denial.

KING: Dina, when you think back, don't you think of, I should have known?

MCGREEVEY: No, Larry. There was no indication that he was leading a double life. As in Governor Spitzer's case, he was out late. He was on over-night trips to Washington or other parts of the country. But he was the governor of the state of New Jersey.

And I also thought, you know, here's a man who's traveling with an assistant and state troopers wherever he goes. They're following him everywhere. They know where he is at all times. So how can he -- it never crossed my mind that he would engage in that sort of behavior under such scrutiny.

Obviously, everyone knew who he was. If he went to Washington, he was recognizable, and certainly within the state of New Jersey.

KING: Mike, did your marriage end?

ALLEN: Yes, it did. We're separated now, contemplating a dissolution. I was very fortunate, though. Through the very tough times, my spouse and my family stayed by me.

For that, I'm very grateful and I will never be able to repay them for the pain that I caused them. But, no, the marriage did not and will not survive what happened and what I did by my actions.

KING: Tracy, what do you think of what the governor did?

QUAN: Well, it's obviously very arrogant. As I said, it's inappropriate for a guy at that level to be visiting escort services. I know people at escort services who feel that way.

They're kind of puzzled as to why a governor of a state would be doing that. Why doesn't he have private contacts of his own. So to me it's like he was acting more like a 28-year-old stock broker than a 48-year-old power broker.

KING: And what do you make of coming down on a train and the exorbitant prices he was paying?

QUAN: The train? What's this about the train? You mean --

KING: Why a train? QUAN: It's crazy to fly from New York to Washington, nobody does that.

KING: Everybody does it. It's called a shuttle. It goes every half hour and takes 37 minutes.

QUAN: You're going from the inner part of the city -- I've done both and I prefer the train. I mean, that's just how I feel. And also there's like all this security at the airports.

KING: Dr. Pinksy --

QUAN: Seriously, it takes five hours to fly --

PINSKY: You're right, Tracy. And I spoke on a radio program today with Dennis Hof, who runs a legal organization in Nevada, the TV show "The Cat House," runs that organization.

He was saying that when the women travel on the train, it's because they're carrying paraphernalia that wouldn't get through the airport. That was his assessment. And the particular prices that were being paid to him had specific meaning.

QUAN: Now that --

KING: Hold it. If you're paying a certain amount, you're getting a certain kind of --

PINKSY: That's what Dennis Hof --

KING: What were you saying, Tracy?

QUAN: What? Say it again.

KING: What were you saying?

QUAN: I've been on a train with paraphernalia, but that's just because the train was the way to get there. I just think people are making too much of this train paraphernalia connection. It's just -- this is a job.

People are trying to earn a living. This gentleman said earlier that I said I was just building business. I didn't say I was just building a business. That's a very serious endeavor. You have to have quotas. You have to think every day about how you're going to run your business. It's not just building a business. It's very tough, actually.

KING: We'll take a break and be right back with this outstanding and unique panel. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPITZER: I am resigning from the office of governor. At Lieutenant Governor Paterson's request, the resignation will be effective Monday, March 17, a date that he believes will permit an orderly transition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Tracy Quan wrote a terrific piece in the "New York Times" today. Why do you think, Tracy, that men take this kind of risk?

QUAN: Not all men do. My clients, for the most part, didn't. After I left the escort service -- or it sort of left me -- I hooked up with private brothels and private Madames. There I met some perfectly rational guys, who were extremely careful and not interested in taking risks. They chose very carefully, very wisely.

I don't know whether Spitzer was trying to get caught. Is that possible? He seems -- it's very foolhardy behavior.

KING: Doctor?

PINSKY: It's not been my experience these guys want to get caught. When they are caught, they're not happy. I tell you that. What I see more is a little bit of a grandiosity, a little bit of insolence, a denial. It's, again, I'm special. I'm not going to get caught.

KING: He could have been more private.

PINSKY: He certainly could have. Again, it's part of that -- it substantiates the rationalization. It's not a big deal. I don't need to hide this. What's the big deal? It's me. It's me. That's sort of how they think.

KING: Mike, how private were you?

ALLEN: Fairly private. And as I said before, you don't think about the consequences of it. Obviously, you should. You just don't think it's going to happen. And ultimately it takes getting knocked over the head with a board to realize that hey, this is inappropriate. This is wrong. It hurts your family. You pick up the pieces and go from there.

KING: Does Governor Spitzer sound contrite to you, Mike?

ALLEN: He does. He did today. Not necessarily in his first press conference. But I think he really did today. I don't know a lot about his career, being from Ohio.

But as I understand it, he's a pretty aggressive guy. He sounded contrite. One thing that he said that I felt -- I related to, is he talked about getting up after falling. And I'm sure even now he's thinking about that.

He's got some pretty serious legal issues in front of him. But there is light at the end of the tunnel for him. And it's going to be a while. But it's not all over Governor Spitzer. I agree with him, as the case with me, his public life is over. But he can still have a pretty fulfilling private life, I think.

KING: Was Jim contrite at his conference when you were standing there, Dina?

MCGREEVEY: No, I don't think he was. I don't think there was anything genuine about what he said. He was -- it's as if he were making another political speech during a campaign season. This is such a tragedy.

And throughout the day, yesterday and today, I've heard people criticize Mrs. Spitzer for standing there, as I've been criticized and continue to be criticized for standing by my husband. But this is a real family tragedy. And this woman did what she thought was right for her and for her family.

I know I did it for my daughter and I thought about my family and my daughter's future. And certainly, I don't know what she's going through. I don't know what's on her mind at that point. But I'm assuming that she made the decision that she made to stand next to him, both on Monday and today, because she's thinking about her daughters.

And also, she's been married for over 20 years. And I was married for a shorter amount of time. But I married my husband because I loved him. I trusted him. I believed in him. And we had a family together. And your feelings don't evaporate overnight.

So for people to criticize her, people who have never walked in her shoes, don't know what it's like, I just think it's very, very sad during this very difficult and painful time for her and her family.

KING: Well said. Let's check in with Anderson Cooper. He hosts "AC 360" at the top of the hour.

Probably a lot more of the same, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Larry, you're talking about it, we're talking about it. Frankly, the whole country is talking about it. Until now, she's only been a name, an alias, Kristin, the call girl behind Eliot Spitzer's dramatic fall from grace. Tonight, according to the "New York Times," we know her real name. Her face, you see it there and her story.

We're now getting more details as to who exactly she is. Our reporters are at her New York apartment right now. We'll bring you everything we know at the top of the hour in about 15 minutes.

There were also major developments in the controversy stirred up over former vice presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro's comments regarding Barack Obama and race. We'll tell you what happened today and why some are saying tomorrow is the day that Florida has to decide if they're going to redo their primary. All that and more at the top of the hour.

KING: What do we hear about Michigan? COOPER: We haven't heard as much about Michigan. It seems right now like Florida seems to be the focus of a lot of behind-the-scenes dealing. We'll see what we can find out about Michigan tonight.

KING: If anyone will, you will. Anderson Cooper, "AC 360," 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific. We'll be back with more right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. In case you joined us late, the "New York Times" has identified Kristin, the high-priced prostitute who met with Governor Spitzer at the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, as 22-year-old Ashley Dupree. The Times refers to her Myspace page where she writes about leaving a broken home at 17, coming to New York and settling in Manhattan to pursue a music career.

Tracy Quan, what do clients, customers, Johns, tell girls -- do they talk about their intimate lives or their work habits?

QUAN: They talk about everything. They just talk about their lives the way anybody does. As far as their marriages, they're not as likely to talk about problems in the marriage.

Most of the men who talk about their marriage are the men who are happy at home. They'll talk about their wife. But it's usually in fairly glowing terms. If it's somebody who's unhappy with his marriage, he does not talk about it.

KING: Would Eliot Spitzer be -- do you think Governor Spitzer would be the type to talk about his job?

QUAN: I would hope not. That would really indicate an even higher -- like a greater lack of judgment than I had ever imagined.

KING: You said if they're happily married. Many people come to prostitutes who are happily married?

QUAN: Absolutely.

KING: Why?

QUAN: What I really object to is the way people have been suggesting that there's something wrong with his marriage. I find that completely crazy.

KING: And Dr. Pinsky's nodding --

PINSKY: I agree with her.

KING: He might be happily married?

PINSKY: When you hear -- I know that Laura Schlesinger made some comments on "The Today Show." I have great respect for her and I love her idea of the care and feeding of the husband. But that's not the case in situations like this. Oftentimes, these behaviors have very little to do with the relationship or the happiness that the husband, particularly, is experiencing in the relationship.

There's problems in the relationship but neither of them often are aware of what those issues are.

KING: In an affair-type, Mike, did you love your wife?

ALLEN: Absolutely. My wife is and was a wonderful woman. It was no failing or short coming on her part whatsoever. It was my failings and my shortcoming shortcomings.

KING: Dina, do you think Jim loved you?

MCGREEVEY: Unfortunately, no. I think he married me for political gain. He always wanted to be the governor of the state of New Jersey and he thought that he had to have a wife and a family in order to do that.

And I don't know if you know this, Larry, but he in addition to having homosexual encounters and a relationship, he also solicited prostitutes because apparently there were rumors about his sexuality. So in order to hide those, he was going to go-go bars and engaging the services of prostitutes as well, and putting me in danger.

But, no, I don't think that he loved me. I think he married me for political expediency. He wanted to be the governor and he believed he needed a family in order to do that.

KING: What do you make of that, doctor?

PINSKY: I'm not sure that's true. Dina, you're describing sexual addiction, sexual compulsion there. Those guys do love people to the best that they're able.

MCGREEVEY: But he was living a lie.

PINSKY: I understand. But, again, these people oftentimes, particularly to the degree of pathology you're describing here, don't have much capacity for love. They would describe their feelings for you as deeply affectionate, and that they, quote, love you. But I'm certain what you think when you look back, you think, that was empty. There's nothing there.

MCGREEVEY: That's true. And that's exactly what I believe, that he did it because it was what he thought was right and what he needed to do in order to achieve the level of success that he did.

KING: On that note, we'll take a break and be back with some more moments of this outstanding group. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Dr. Pinsky, does the governor need help?

PINSKY: I think so. And that's one of the things that concerns me. I don't see the kind of contrition that I see from Mike Allen here, of someone that would really reach out and be willing to change. I just don't see it.

KING: But he needs help?

KING: In my opinion, all the things we have talked about tonight have treatment. They work. I treat people like this all the time. They get a lot better.

KING: Did you get help, Mike?

ALLEN: Mainly self-help. But we were in counseling for a while. But I think that's a process that the governor's going to have to go through by himself, and also family counseling as well. I guess it remains to be seen whether his marriage will remain intact. But he's got to get himself straight first.

PINSKY: It does work, guys. It really does.

KING: Dina, what's going to happen to our young lady? Tracy, rather, what's going to happen to the young lady?

QUAN: I hope she has a good lawyer. I understand that a lawyer has been appointed. Does that mean that she can't afford her own lawyer. I am concerned about that. We don't know what's going to happen to her. I've heard rumors she might be doing a book.

KING: I'm sure she'll do a book.

QUAN: I hope she gets a huge advance because I think she's going through something really tough right now.

KING: La Hoya, California, we take a call, hello.

CALLER: Larry, thanks for taking my call. I'm wondering from the doctor how long it's going to take the young woman in this case to recover from the emotional as well as the physical trauma and the media scrutiny that she's obviously being exposed to.

KING: She's only 22.

PINSKY: She's only 22. But, Tracy, I think you would agree with me that many of the people that go into these kind of lifestyles have trauma histories. And it's really those early trauma histories that are more at issue. They often have post-traumatic stress disturbances. This can only add to that.

But many times, these kinds of crises motivate them to change. In fact, this may be an opportunity for her to do something with her life and with her condition, let's call it that, that may improve things.

KING: Dina, what do you think is going to happen to Mrs. Spitzer?

MCGREEVEY: I can't answer. I've been asked several times today what she should do. I can't answer for her. I hope, for her sake and her family's sake, they are able to pick up the pieces of their lives and continue. Whatever form that takes, I don't know. Only she can answer that.

They have a long marriage. They have three children. So I believe that they can, perhaps, repair their marriage. But only she can answer that question.

KING: Mike, what would you advise him?

ALLEN: I think, as I said, you have to look into yourself and get yourself straight. He'll have to make the decision whether he wants to stay in the marriage or whether the marriage is salvageable. As I said, one thing that he said today in his press conference, he talked about getting up after falling and that's something that can happen, but it's going to take some time for him. But he will live to see another tomorrow. I think you can be certain of that.

KING: Dr. Pinsky, he's a brilliant guy, brilliant pedigree.

PINSKY: For sure.

KING: Does he have a future in business?

PINSKY: Of course he does. He sort of alluded to that as well. I think the problem, though, is if he doesn't really accept the consequence of what's happened here and take a good look at himself, as Mike Allen is saying here, you could see more of the same down the line. That's the really horrible part about this, is that people that have these sort of issues, if they don't do something to change them, they resurface in this way or other ways later on.

It's not as easy as going back into another job. Addicts try this all the time. They move locations. They move jobs, but the things follows them where they go.

KING: How long does the story go?

PINSKY: How long are we going to talk about it in the press? A couple more weeks I'm sure. There's more to be revealed. Once this young woman begins talking about what her experience was, I think we'll have lots of conversations about what this is, why men do this, what we're going to do about this problem.

KING: You think she will come forward?

PINSKY: I suspect. I bet you.

KING: Thank you all very much. Dina McGreevey, the estranged wife of the former Democratic governor of New Jersey, Jim McGreevey, Dr. Drew Pinsky, the addiction expert, host of VH1's "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Pinsky," Tracy Quan, the former sex worker, author of "Diary of a Manhattan Call Girl," and "Diary of a Married Call Girl," and Mike Allen, the criminal defense attorney who went through some tough times of his own.

Check out CNN's show page, CNN.com/LarryKing. You can e-mail upcoming guests, sends us an I ask question, or download our latest podcast. We're online all the time at CNN.com/LarryKing. I want to remind you that Dr. Laura is our guest tomorrow. She'll have a lot to say about husbands who cheat and the wives who still love them. That's LARRY KING LIVE Thursday.

Right now, Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."

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