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2ND UNC Student Murder Suspect Also Charged With Duke Student Murder
Aired March 13, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 22-year-old student body president, UNC Chapel Hill, last seen 1:30 AM doing homework, 5:00 AM shots fired, 22-year-old Eve Carson found dead in an intersection near campus. A late night Crimestopper tip leads police straight to murder suspect one, 21-year-old Demario James Atwater.
Tonight, a second anonymous tip and cops bust murder suspect two, 17- year-old Lawrence Lovette. Both suspects caught on tape, grainy surveillance video, in Carson`s Toyota using her ATM card, both suspects on parole at the time of Carson`s cold-blooded shooting.
And another bombshell tonight. Murder suspect Lovette also facing murder one in the shooting death of yet another college student at nearby Duke University. Disturbing reports surface the murder of 22-year-old Eve Carson could have been stopped after we learn suspect Atwater in court on another case just 48 hours before Carson`s murder, but he walked free.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news out of North Carolina, police arresting a second suspect in the murder of UNC student. She was the student body president, Eve Carson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities arrested 17-year-old Lawrence Alvin Lovette, Jr., after a stand-off at his home. Here`s a surveillance photo from the cash machine. It allegedly shows Lovette using Eve Carson`s ATM card on the night she was killed. Yesterday, police charged the other suspect, Demario James Atwater, with murder in the case. And in another twist to the story, today police also charged Lovette with murder in the death of a graduate student at nearby Duke University. Abhijit Mahato was found shot dead in his apartment on the Duke campus in January. Police say Carson was shot in the right temple, execution-style. Her body was found lying in the street only a mile from the UNC Chapel Hill campus.
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GRACE: And tonight: Just north of Tucson, police make a disturbing discovery in a triple-wide trailer, 800 dogs, 82 exotic birds living in one trailer, many very, very ill, with paws bitten off, some even dead.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A disgusting scene in an Arizona triple-wide, nearly 800 dogs inside the trailer -- 800. A couple of elderly dog breeders were living and operating in total filth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never seen anything like this. I was horrified by the filth that not only the animals were living in but the two residents of the trailer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we eventually found was 744 dogs, most of them Chihuahuas, also 36 parrots, all living inside a trailer with feces on the floor. The smell of ammonia from the urine was just overwhelming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... found at least two dead dogs so far and a lot of medical problems with some of the dogs that are in there. We`ve seen dogs that are missing paws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight, a young North Carolina mom gets the shock of a lifetime when she heads to work and logs on to her self-installed secret nannycam set up right there in the den. Within hours of setting up the nannycam, her brand-new infants spotted being manhandled by the nanny, a nanny that fooled Mommy, and it`s all caught on nannycam. Headline tonight: Charges finally come down, but those charges are not enough to hold her behind bars. She`s walking free and reportedly looking for another job in day care.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A nanny caught on video roughing up and mistreating two little twin infants. It all unfolds in the living room at the North Carolina home of Lindsay Addison, and it`s all caught on a secret, self-installed nannycam. On it, 26-year-old Stephanie Merrill picks up the 7-month-old twins by their clothes, flinging them onto the sofa. At one point, one of the twins is left alone at risk to suffocate. And Merrill even carries a twin tucked under her arm like a clutch purse. Tonight, the nanny faces child abuse charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. Finally, not one but two murder suspects behind bars in the shooting death of 22-year-old UNC student body president Eve Carson. And in a stunning development, one alleged killer wanted in the murder of another student miles away at Duke University.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police arresting a second suspect in the murder of UNC student Eve Carson. They say that they received an anonymous tip that 17-year-old Lawrence Lovette was hiding out in a house in Durham. A SWAT team surrounded the house at around 4:00 AM Apparently, Lovette put up no resistance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The suspect surrendered peacefully. No weapons were fired, no struggle and no injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Members of the selective enforcement team arrived around midnight. They used bullhorns to try to make contact with the suspect inside. And when they didn`t get anywhere, when they didn`t get a response for about an hour-and-a-half, they finally tossed a phone through a window in order to make contact. And that`s when investigators say Lovette picked up the phone and talked with them. Negotiators were able to convince Lovette to come outside. He walked out. He was unarmed. He had his hands up. Lovette is now being questioned at the Durham Police Department. He faces first degree murder charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The other suspect, 21-year-old Demario Atwater, was arrested yesterday and charged with first degree murder. Atwater is being held without bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: One wanted in not one but two murders. After he turned 17, just weeks after that birthday, he was on parole. Shortly after that, a criminal history began to mount, and now he`s behind bars on murder one.
Out to Shelvia Dancy, reporter with CNN affiliate News 14 Carolina. What happened?
SHELVIA DANCY, NEWS 14 CAROLINA: Well, this is what we know so far. Police surrounded that home in Durham early this morning after getting an anonymous tip that that`s where Lovette was located. After a couple of hour stand-off, they were able to talk Lovette out of the home, so he did surrender peacefully without incident. Officers brought him in and initially charged him with first degree murder in the death of Eve Carson. Hours later, though, officers connected him to the murder back in January of that Duke graduate student. And exactly how they made that connection, we don`t know at this point. They`re keeping that information close to the chest. But we do know they made that connection. Now he`s charged in connection with the death of that Duke student.
GRACE: Shelvia, do we think there`s any possibility that a ballistics match has connected both of the murders, or is it more likely that witnesses did that?
DANCY: Either of those could be a possibility. Investigators have been really scrutinizing every angle of this case. And again, exactly what specific information they have that led them to make the link, they`re not telling us. So anything is a possibility, pretty much, at this point.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Gurnal Scott with WPTF radio. Where did they get the tip?
GURNAL SCOTT, WPTF RADIO: Well, it was a Crimestoppers tip. All along in this investigation into Eve Carson`s murder, they are -- they are really relying on folks out there in the community to get those tips into police so that they can actually go in and make sure that they know who these people are and can go in and get them. And the people in the community have really come through for police, the Durham police and the Chapel Hill police, in these cases.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Denise in Pennsylvania. Hi, Denise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know, since this 17-year-old is connected to two murders and he`s so bold with his -- showing his face, can they try him as an adult and put the death penalty on him?
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Jay Fahy, former prosecutor out of New York, John Richardson, Miami, and Mickey Sherman, New York. To Mickey Sherman. Will he be tried as an adult?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. You know, the system these days is more interested in punishing people, young people, than the old system, which was treating them and treating them as youths and trying to rehabilitate them. And the moral outrage that`s been created by this crime certainly erases any shot that this guy has to be treated as a youth or a child or in any way less than an adult.
GRACE: Mickey Sherman, let me remind you that our justice system sentencing has three prongs. One of those, as you said, is rehabilitation. The other is deterrent. The third is punishment. This guy is looking at two murder one charges, cold-blooded murder! What are you talking about?
GRACE: No, I`d like to finish! Rehabilitation. Didn`t you just hear Shelvia Dancy talking? Didn`t you hear me state at the beginning, at 17, he`s already on parole. He has a rap sheet as long as a football field! What are you talking about rehabilitation?
SHERMAN: He`s a bad kid, OK? Totally agree. I mean...
GRACE: Well, why did you bring up rehab?
SHERMAN: Because the function of the criminal justice system historically, Nancy, whether you like it or not, was when people were young, they weren`t punished, they were treated, they were rehabilitated, and we try to make them better people. That went out the window...
GRACE: You`re totally...
SHERMAN: ... a long time ago, but that was...
GRACE: ... leaving out the other two prongs of the system.
Let`s go to Jay Fahy, former prosecutor. Jay, do you believe he`ll be tried as an adult?
JAY FAHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: He`ll absolutely be tried as an adult. He was on probation. He has a criminal record, and he killed two students. I love Mickey Sherman, but that -- this -- Mickey, you`re way off base on this one. He will absolutely be tried as an adult.
SHERMAN: No, I`m not advocating that he shouldn`t be. abut it`s the reality that it`s a departure from the historic way...
GRACE: Yes, well, Mickey...
SHERMAN: ... the criminal justice system works.
GRACE: ... those are cases about shoplifting or joyriding, they`re not about cold-blooded murder. John Richardson, weigh in.
JOHN RICHARDSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that you have to have enough evidence to be able to charge him with murder to begin with. But remember...
GRACE: Hold on just a moment, please.
RICHARDSON: ... he`s innocent until proven guilty.
GRACE: I`d like to see John Richardson`s face. Enough evidence? Doesn`t that go without saying? Are we back on the broken record, presumed innocent unless and until the state pierces that presumption with evidence that goes beyond a reasonable doubt? Doesn`t that go without saying, John? Of course there`s got to be evidence, for Pete`s sake.
RICHARDSON: Well, yes. But also, I think it -- it -- you have to consider his role. Is this a kid who`s sitting there watching someone else, shocked, to his surprise (ph), murdering somebody, or is he pulling the trigger?
GRACE: Well, John...
RICHARDSON: I think these factors should be entertained and...
GRACE: I agree with you completely, John Richardson, but which murder are you talking about, the first or the second one? Was he shocked at both of them?
GRACE: With a big surprise?
RICHARDSON: Both, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, OK. All right. To Shelvia Dancy with News 14 there in Carolina. Shelvia, what can you tell me about one of these defendants being in court on yet another charge 48 hours before Eve Carson is gunned down in cold blood? And they slipped through the cracks.
DANCY: There`s no question that when you look at the list of charges that Lovette has been facing, when you look at his arrest record, this kid is no stranger to the justice system. In fact...
GRACE: Kid? Kid? He`s 17!
DANCY: ... a young person...
GRACE: At 17, my father...
DANCY: A young person -- forgive me.
GRACE: ... was in a world war!
DANCY: Forgive me! This young person is no stranger to the justice system. In fact, he was supposed to be in court again tomorrow on some breaking and entering and larceny charges. A lot of people I`ve been talking to have been wondering how was it that this guy is back on the street. And I tell you, these are deaths that have really resonated in the community. People want answers at this point, and they really want some answers from the justice system, from judges, from prosecutors as to how is this happening. One women I spoke with today actually used that term, "revolving door." She said, This is a classic example, in her opinion, of that revolving door.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Lee in Massachusetts. Hi, Lee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty much, I want to know how fast -- how fast was the determination for them to connect Lawrence Lovette to the Duke killing?
GRACE: Good question, Lee. What about it, Gurnal Scott?
SCOTT: Well, they seemed to make that connection pretty quickly. And who knows what happened in the interview process, once they took him into custody and once they decided that he was going to be connected to that Duke killing. We haven`t been made privy. The Durham police hasn`t -- the Durham police haven`t really said anything to us about their investigative process and what they -- what questions they have asked. But they made that connection, as you -- that caller said, very quickly.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to Tom Shamshak, private investigator, former police chief, joining us from Boston, Massachusetts, tonight. Tom, Welcome back. We know about a AFIS, which is a nationwide bank of fingerprints, OK? We know about the DNA bank, CODIS. Is there such a bank for ballistics?
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, FMR. POLICE CHIEF: Yes, Nancy, there is. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms maintains the data base. The forensic evidence that was obtained should have been run through those data bases.
GRACE: I want to go back out to lines. Annette in Wisconsin. Hi, Annette.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we love it when you share the babies with us.
GRACE: Thank you. I`ll have more photos tomorrow night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, wonderful.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear? My digicam was full. I couldn`t take any today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, are these two young men -- are they gang-related? Could this be a gang initiation?
GRACE: How many times are they getting initiated, Annette?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
GRACE: This is murder number two, according to police. But good question. Back out to Gurnal Scott, WPTF radio. We`ve been talking about, for instance, the hat that one of them were wearing. And you got cut off by a commercial break last night. Let`s talk about that very quickly, Gurnal, and the possibility this was some type of an initiation.
SCOTT: That has been floated, that this is part of an initiation. The hat, very quickly, an old Houston Astros hat, a star with an "H" in the middle was considered by police to be a symbol of a group called the Hoover (ph) Crips in the Durham area. And many police officers have seen that hat on many gang members. So they are still holding that information very close to them, but they haven`t given up the possibility that it is gang- related.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. He is joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan. Question, Doctor. Police have now charged Lovette in the death of yet another student there at Duke many miles away. Explain to us the science of comparing the ballistics.
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, I think, first of all, that the speed with which they linked these two murders has to be related to some kind of forensic science, and...
GRACE: Or a witness. Or a witness, Daniel.
SPITZ: Yes, or a witness, but I think because we didn`t know this man`s name before, likely the link is something other than a witness. Now, certainly, a witness may corroborate that, but forensic science would be able to link that. And the way that it`s done is to take two bullets and to look at the markings on those bullets using a microscope. And because the markings are so unique, depending on what gun they`re fired from, if the markings are the same, then you know they`re fired from the same weapon.
GRACE: You know, it`s quite a process. If you see a gun, you take the known bullet, the bullet found at the crime scene or in a body. You compare it to -- you get the gun. You fire a pristine bullet through that gun, possibly into water, possibly into -- whatever. You fire the gun. You take that bullet under a microscope. As the bullet hurtles down the barrel of the gun, markings are left on it, metal to metal, that are -- it`s like a fingerprint. Yes, no, Doctor.
SPITZ: It is. It`s very much like a fingerprint. And if you have two bullets from two different crime scenes, you can match those bullets to a particular weapon. So that`s how...
GRACE: When we come back, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, weighs in. We are taking your calls live. Two suspects behind bars in the shooting death of student body president Eve Carson. Now one linked to a shooting miles away at Duke University. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lovette was arrested early this morning and charged with first degree murder in the death of Eve Carson. Investigators won`t say what information they have that links him to the murder of Mahato, but they say the investigation into Mahato`s death never closed, even after one person was arrested for the crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tragic story in North Carolina, the murder of a promising young college student. Police have arrested now a second suspect in the murder of student body president at UNC Eve Carson. They say they got an anonymous tip that 17-year-old Lawrence Lovette was hiding out in a house in Durham. They say Lovette was the person caught on tape driving her car in ATM surveillance videos and photos released last week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now one of the suspects linked to yet another student murder on Duke University campus.
Out to the lines. Leeann in Wisconsin. Hi, Leeann.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is kind of a two-part question. Did they find the murder weapons? And did ballistics trace these to both of the victims?
GRACE: Shelvia Dancy joining us. Very quickly, Shelvia, have they found the murder weapon?
DANCY: In the Eve Carson case, they haven`t told us anything whether they found that weapon. When it comes to the death of Mahato, I don`t recall whether or not officers said they were able to find a weapon. And in any case, again, officers aren`t telling us how they made that connection, whether it is ballistics, because it happened so quickly, or whether it was some other means that they used to connect the dots in those cases.
GRACE: Joining us tonight, psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. Bethany, weigh in.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think -- everyone`s wondering if this is gang-related. I think a better model perhaps is to think of the D.C. snipers, where one of the perpetrators had a longstanding fascination with homicide and then developed a very ritualized way of perpetrating the crime. So we may find that Lovette or one of the boys was deeply fascinated with death and brought in another kid or young adult to share in the glory of it, and that if this hadn`t been caught in time, it might have become more stylized and repetitious over time, with an increasing number of victims.
GRACE: Dr. Bethany Marshall, arrogance or stupidity, using the ATM? Clearly, it`s caught on camera.
MARSHALL: Well, what we know about sociopathy is there`s such an autonomic under-arousal that there`s not feelings of guilt or worry about getting caught or getting in trouble. So that`s why these criminals go in and out of the jail system. And that`s also, as a matter of fact, why they cannot be rehabilitated because they have no anxiety about their crimes, therefore no idea that they`ll get caught.
GRACE: To tonight "Case Alert." The mystery surrounding the murder of an Arizona mom (INAUDIBLE) hospital volunteer, Gail Parker, found dead in -- she`s (ph) there in the Tucson desert in 1993. Parker last seen out by the Circle K convenience store, purse (ph) missing over a month before discovered at a Utah rest stop. If you have information, call Tucson police, 520-791-4487.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A big break in the UNC student murder case. Police have arrested their second suspect. He`s 17-year-old Lawrence Alvin Lovette. He surrendered early this morning, but only after police surrounded the house he was holed up in for over four hours. Lovette and 22-year-old Demario James Atwater are accused of shooting student body president Eve Carson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Nancy in Florida. Hi, Nancy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Good to hear you.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this. Couldn`t the judge, because he was there before the judge -- 48 hours before the president was shot, the girl was shot...
GRACE: Right? Could the judge be held responsible?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s right.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. What about it, Jay Fahy?
FAHY: Unfortunately, no. The prosecutor was there, making whatever pitch he was making. The public defender was making his pitch, and the judge made the decision. There`s judicial immunity. The real question I would have is, Did the prosecutor object? Did the prosecutor stand mute? Did he go along with it or not? My experience is that, almost always, the judges go along with the prosecutor`s recommendation, so I`d love to know what the prosecutor`s office position on this case was.
GRACE: To Vicky in Texas. Hi, Vicky. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for caring enough for victims to bring it to our attention. I feel that we are truly blessed.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, how many crimes does a person have to commit before they`re held? I mean, we have an 18-year-old thug in Auburn, a 17-year-old thug twice...
GRACE: You know what? The sad truth, Vicky, until it gets publicized, it is a resolving door.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pima Animal Care trucks rolled down the long driveway one by one. Their mission to rescue the animals from unsafe living conditions. The people who live inside the house are breeders. But according to one of the investigators, whenever they were selling a dog, they would never allow their clients to go inside the house. Instead, they would meet the potential client with four or five dogs. And that`s how they would make their sales.
Officials say there were over 700 dogs, most of them living inside the manufactured home as well as 31 birds. The breeders agreed to surrender the animals to the Humane Society. There are reports of dogs missing paws among other unsanitary conditions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Nearly 800 dogs and 82 exotic birds in one trailer? Granted, a triple-wide. But a trailer regardless.
Out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter, what happened?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, it`s a horrific situation. Imagine this little Chihuahua mix that I am holding in my hands right now and multiply her 800 times. That was the situation going on inside this triple-wide trailer. Almost 800 small dogs. This dog is seven pounds. Many of them were smaller than that. And they were in horrific conditions. Some of them were missing paws because they had attacked each other or had gotten their paws caught in fencing. Three of them were dead. Many of them were very ill.
Now this illustrates the horrors of these backyard breeders who breed for profit and turn their homes and their mobile homes into puppy mills. This was busted wide open when a woman who bought a Chihuahua from this elderly couple noticed the dog was sick, noticed something fishy, went to her vet. The authorities were informed. They went in. They said the smell of feces and urine was absolutely overwhelming and they pulled out 800 dogs.
And, of course, now they have to find homes for them when they`re putting dogs to sleep across the country every 60 seconds or more. It`s going to be a very tough job. Something`s got to be done.
GRACE: Out to Paul Birmingham, Tucson, Arizona, news anchor with KNST Radio.
Paul, thank you for being with us. It seems to me that 800 dogs into it, someone would have known this was going on.
PAUL BIRMINGHAM, ANCHOR, KNST RADIO: That`s a very good point, Nancy. And what we`ve been able to ascertain is that, in fact, members of the Pima Animal Care Center had been out to the property in the past. But from everything that we`re seeing, everything checked out. Now, as you mentioned, horrific circumstances that were discovered Monday, then again yesterday when they went out, we do have a new total on this, a total of 752 small dogs as well as an additional 36 exotic birds.
But, again, you`re right. You would think somebody would have raised a red flag earlier. Now, as you did mention, they were tipped off essentially by this one woman who did get a Chihuahua. The Chihuahua developed an illness. That is ultimately what led the veterinarians to say, somebody has to call the authorities and finally something was done with, again, all of these animals now being rescued yesterday.
GRACE: Yes. I understand, Paul Birmingham, the little dog developed Kennel cough?
BIRMINGHAM: That`s essentially what we`re hearing. That it was an illness that was not life threatening, but an illness nonetheless. And despite the horrific conditions, again, which these animals were living in, we do have some good news in that all of them have been able to find essentially a home temporarily at the Companions for Life Center as part of the southern Arizona Humane Society and the overwhelming support and response of the community to where these animals are now actually being adopted out.
GRACE: Well, that is a silver lining of sorts.
To a special guest joining us tonight, Sergeant James Ogden. He is the spokesperson with the Pima County Sheriff`s Office.
Sergeant, thank you for being with us. Who are these people? Why do they have 800 critters in their triple-wide?
SGT. JAMES OGDEN, SPOKESMAN, PIMA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, just like Paul said, they were breeders and it kind of just got out of control. I was at the scene.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, Sergeant. Out of control is when you`re at five or six dogs, all right?
OGDEN: Yes, exactly.
GRACE: Not 800.
OGDEN: I was at the scene the other day and it was just -- one comment was made, horrific. When I walked through the scene it was just unbelievable how these folks...
GRACE: What did you see?
OGDEN: Well, I mean, there was -- basically when you walked on the carpet it was -- the urine smell and the feces smell and the dogs were defecating inside the house and everything else. And then right in the middle of the kitchen area were, you know, probably 50-some odd birds in cages and stuff like that. It was just deplorable. It was unbelievable.
GRACE: Sergeant, where did the people live?
OGDEN: They were living in there amongst the animals and the birds.
GRACE: Good lord in heaven.
OGDEN: Yes. I don`t know. I`ve been in this business for about 20, 25 years now. And this is -- some of the scenes and crime scenes that I`ve seen weren`t even close to this. This was just unbelievable.
GRACE: Well, is it true it was an elderly couple?
OGDEN: Yes. They`re in their 60s. It was an elderly couple, yes.
GRACE: Well, you know, that`s not really that old. I thought that they were much older than that when I read elderly couple. How did this happen, Sergeant? I don`t -- what was their intent?
OGDEN: Well, their intent was, of course, to breed and also to sell. And.
GRACE: Well, they were certainly breeding and not selling.
OGDEN: Yes -- they definitely were. They really were.
GRACE: Any sales?
OGDEN: And if it wasn`t for this lady that took the dog to the vet and the vet said, notify law enforcement, that`s how it got the ball rolling and got us involved and our civilian partner, the Humane Society and the Pima County Animal Control Center who are absolutely.
OGDEN: .absolutely fantastic, they do a phenomenal job with us.
GRACE: With us is Sergeant James Ogden, spokesperson for the Pima County Sheriff`s Office. Also with us, another special guest, Lisa Lange, senior VP of PETA.
Lisa, it`s great to see you although it is under very bad circumstances. Weigh in on this scenario.
LISA LANGE, SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT, PETA: Yes, thanks for having me, Nancy. Our cruelty division today wrote to the D.A. and asked, urged them to charge this couple with cruelty to animals. What they have done, what we see here is absolutely against state law. And so far they haven`t been charged. What we see here is not a collector case. What we see here is neglect on a puppy mill, which is what Jane said earlier.
These animals were being bred for profit. Some of these animals were being sold for more than $2,000. And as you reported earlier, they would bring dogs out to show to people, which to us shows that they knew something was going on behind the scenes. They knew these animals were suffering. That`s why they didn`t allow people to look at the dogs. We want them to be charged to the fullest extent of the law. We`d like to see jail time and in addition to that we want to see that they never be allowed to own or harbor animals ever again.
They have to be punished for this. These animals suffered terribly in this situation. And again, some of them died. Some of them were missing paws because they were overcrowded and fighting with one another. They need to be punished for this.
And the other thing, too, Nancy, is that you need to remember, this is 700 animals now plus that have to be adopted out at the shelter that`s already brimming with animals.
GRACE: How do we, Paul Birmingham, very quickly, how do people adopt? How do you adopt?
BIRMINGHAM: Essentially people have been going down to the shelter, finding the animals, once they are checked out, and again, getting in line for these adoptions.
GRACE: OK. What`s the name of the shelter? What`s the name of the shelter?
BIRMINGHAM: This would be the Humane Society of Southern Arizona. There is a telephone number to call. Area code 520-327-6088.
GRACE: 520-327-6088 or.
BIRMINGHAM: That`s correct.
GRACE: We did have the Web site up just then. We`ll put it right back. There you go. Www.hssaz.org. We`re looking at about 800 pets.
To Jane Velez-Mitchell, had they been fed?
MITCHELL: They were fed, but they were very ill, some of them. And I agree completely with what Lisa said. This is not just a hoarding case. This is a case of greed. And this is a case where people are using animals as commodities to make money.
GRACE: But now wait a minute, Jane Velez-Mitchell, if it was all about greed what are they doing living out in the desert in a triple-wide.
MITCHELLL: Well, obviously, it`s not a good way to make money and so people shouldn`t do it. So when you open the newspaper and you see those little ads for dogs in the back of the paper, don`t answer them. Don`t go to breeders because every 61 seconds in California an animal is put to sleep and go to a shelter and adopt them.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Jessica in Pennsylvania. Hi, Jessica.
JESSICA, FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. Love the show. We`re huge fans.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
JESSICA: If convicted, the dog owners, what is the worst punishment they could face?
GRACE: About 100 -- well, you know what? Let me go to the source on this.
Jane Velez, what`s the maximum?
MITCHELL: Unfortunately this is just a misdemeanor. All they`re going to get is, at the max, six months in jail and a $2,500 fine. And it really has to be.
GRACE: So about 180 days behind bars is just.
MITCHELL: It`s ridiculous. And Nancy, that`s why we need laws. And there`s laws in California being proposed. The California Healthy Pets Act as well as in Arizona.
GRACE: And no fear bringing on a Chihuahua. I`ve got to tell you I`m emotional. It reminds me of Pudding the Chihuahua who ate nothing but candy corns that belonged to my aunt. That`s not fair.
When we get back, everybody, caught on nanny cam. A mom of newborn twins gets the shock of a lifetime. She heads to work, logs on to her home installed secret nanny cam. The nanny is out. Why is she free tonight and looking for another job in child care? After this.
And tonight, a get well wish out to Milton, Florida, to Miss Betsy Brown, our prayers and thoughts are with you.
Betsy, get well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caught on nanny cam. A 26-year-old nanny hired for her great references and experience with premies now facing charges for putting a child at risk for injuries. The children, 7-month-old twins left in her care when their mom heads back to work.
Lindsay Addison installs an undercover nanny cam she could log on to right from work. And she saw everything, but the kid glove treatment she thought the nanny was giving her babies. The newborns carried around like bales of hay and put in jeopardy to fall or suffocate.
Cary, North Carolina authorities just now filing two counts of child abuse after watching the tape in its entirety. But tonight, nanny Stephanie Merrill walks free without bond and will not be back in court until May.
GRACE: Well, it`s caught on video, but yet she still walks free and reportedly is looking for a job in day care.
Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted, what happened?
JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, this woman is now charged with two counts of misdemeanor child abuse. Essentially what happened is, as your reporter mentioned, a mom is watching the nanny cam from work on her computer and she sees things that horrify her and finally police got the whole tape in their possession about eight and a half hours of watching this woman pretty much manhandle these two infants. And finally, once police got to view the entire tape they pressed these misdemeanor child abuse charges.
GRACE: Jon Leiberman joining us with "America`s Most Wanted".
To Lindsay Addison, the mommy who set up the nanny cam. Lindsay, I`ve got to tell you, you`re one lucky lady. You know, infants die every year of SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome, and a lot of it comes about because they end up turned over on their stomachs, face down, just like that, and they die.
I think I`ve got Lindsay with me.
LINDSAY ADDISON, MOTHER WHO SET UP NANNY-CAM: Yes. I`m here.
GRACE: We`re looking at the video right now. What do you think about the charges?
ADDISON: I am -- I`m satisfied with them because my main goal was just to get something on her record to hopefully prevent her from having a job in child care. And that obviously has done that.
GRACE: Is it true, these reports that she`s out looking for another job in day care?
ADDISON: I heard from two reliable sources that after the video -- after the police spoke with her and told her not to, and after the video aired here locally, she was still pursuing child care positions.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, after all this has happened, are you surprised the nanny is out looking for jobs with child care?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Not really because she sees children as marks. They`re big fat dollar bills to her. And the more she can rough house and rough handle them, she can make money off of them. Also, she doesn`t really think that she has done anything wrong.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Jay Fahy, New York, John Richardson, Miami, Mickey Sherman, New York.
Mickey, how do you fight a charge like this?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: By showing the video. And you know, if I`m.
GRACE: No, how do you fight it?
SHERMAN: That`s what I`m saying by showing the video.
GRACE: Oh I see.
SHERMAN: If I`m not mistaken, when Mrs. Addison spoke to the police they looked at the tape and they said that it doesn`t rise to the level of criminal conduct and they didn`t arrest her. Am I right, Mrs. Addison?
ADDISON: It wasn`t child abuse but it was neglect.
SHERMAN: But didn`t the police say that they -- there wasn`t enough to arrest them?
ADDISON: They weren`t really clear in what they were telling me. I thought the case was closed and then they proceeded to.
GRACE: So what is your point, Mickey?
SHERMAN: my point is it`s despicable conduct. This woman is horrific, should not be allowed to be in child care. But the police upon viewing it didn`t think it rose to the level of criminal conduct to arrest them. And only arrested them after you, Nancy, as well you should, and the CBS "Early Show" and other shows broadcast it so much that I think the police and authorities were embarrassed into arresting her.
I don`t know that the charge is going to stick. It`s horrible conduct but I don`t know if there`s a crime there.
GRACE: Well, it`s my understanding that the police wanted to view the entire video tape. This is just what Lindsay Addison happened to log on to when she turned the thing on before they decided which charge.
What about it, Jay Fahy?
JAY FAHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think this is a good case. I can understand what Mickey said if you watch it over and over again and there are hours where maybe she`s being nice to the children. That might help on the defense. But in a misdemeanor case it`s usually heard just by a judge, number one. So the sympathies of the jury will not be there but.
GRACE: John -- go ahead, I`m sorry, Jay.
FAHY: No. I think this is a good case. This -- and knowing that the mother had to watch this, just pulls at the heart strings.
JOHN RICHARDSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I believe this is disturbing. The fact that they took a month to file these charges and that this woman`s out looking for a job and the government hasn`t tried to revoke her bond and she`s potentially mentally ill? I mean, look at the video. Who does that to a child? I think the government has failed us. You need a license to cut hair but you don`t need a license to be a nanny.
GRACE: So you blame the government. Interesting.
To Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner joining out of Michigan, what type of injuries could the child have received in this kind of treatment, doctor?
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, there`s no doubt that the treatment that these children received is putting them at great risk for injuries. I`m talking about skeletal injuries, fractures, and like you mentioned, being left face down on a couch certainly increases the risk of suffocation. And this mother is lucky that nothing terrible happened to these children.
GRACE: Doctor, very quickly, how do you tell postmortem if a child died of SIDS or suffocation?
SPITZ: Well, it`s really based predominantly on the circumstances and by looking at the environment in which the child was sleeping.
GRACE: So you can`t tell?
SPITZ: Not just based on the autopsy.
GRACE: To Paul in Ohio. Hi, Paul.
PAUL, FROM OHIO: Hey, how you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
PAUL: I just wanted to know a couple of things. One is has this lady done this to any other children and, two, did the mother do any background check on this lady or anything of that nature?
PAUL: Or anything of that nature because she obviously doesn`t know.
GRACE: Lindsay, what type of background did you -- did you look into?
ADDISON: We pulled her criminal background, which there was nothing at the time. Obviously now there`ll be something for other people if she pursues this.
GRACE: Did you call her references?
ADDISON: And I called four references and they all checked out great.
GRACE: Well, I bet they didn`t have a nanny cam.
ADDISON: That`s right.
GRACE: To Michelle in California, hi, Michelle.
MICHELLE, FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. Love your show, watch you every day seriously.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
MICHELLE: My question is, this lady is shown in two different outfits. For the length of time that she was being filmed and that she was being watched by this mother how did she change into two different outfits? It seems like it would have been watched for a length of time.
GRACE: We`ll be right back with the answer.
ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.
GRACE: Out to mother Lindsay Addison who set up the nanny cam, let`s answer Michelle`s question, what about the two outfits?
ADDISON: She actually got spit up on by a baby and was naked for part of the time and wearing a blanket from our sofa, a throw blanket. That`s what the second outfit was.
GRACE: Oh I see because I can see like the bra straps there. That`s a blanket.
ADDISON: That wasn`t pleasant to see either.
GRACE: Got it. Got it. Got it.
I want to go to very quickly to Tom Shamshak, joining us from Boston, a private eye there. Is there anything law enforcement can do to stop people like her from getting a job in child care?
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, FMR. POLICE CHIEF: Nancy, I think this person should be prosecuted. She needs to be brought forward in the system and the conditions of probation should be that she has no involvement going forward. There should be yellow crime scene tape wrapped around this woman until -- that`s where we have to go.
GRACE: I think you`re right. That`s the only way.
But with that, Bethany, we have to wait for a conviction?
MARSHALLL: Yes, we do. And -- you know, we think of the string of victims that have come before. They can`t speak up. They`re all still babies and young children, right? So if she`s not prosecuted for this, who else is going to speak up?
GRACE: A very special thank you to Jon Leiberman, "America`s Most Wanted," Tom Shamshak and Lindsay Addison for sharing the home video.
Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Christopher West, 26, Arlington, Texas, killed, Iraq. Fourth generation army. A combat medic graduated with honors, Texas A&M, awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loved serving the country. Dreamed of a career in law or military. Leaves behind parents John and Haddy, sisters Lauren and Cameron.
Christopher West, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us.
Tonight our thoughts and prayers with the Marines of the 4th Division Marine Corps Reserve Center, Alabama. One dead, 22 injured, four in serious condition when their bus flipped multiple times, Ft. Rucker, Alabama. The Reserve Marines at a weekend training heading home at the time of the accident. And tonight, our thoughts with the family of the deceased. And to the Marines, get well.
Everyone, we`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.