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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
The Hidden Life of Cheaters
Aired March 17, 2008 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, GUEST HOST: Tonight, did Eliot Spitzer think he'd get away with secret sex?
Shamed from the governor's office, he leaves his career today and the world wondering about the hidden life of cheaters. Private eyes, lies, spies and suspicion -- infidelity exposed and explained.
Enter the world of elicit hookups next on LARRY KING LIVE.
I am Dr. Drew Pinsky in for Larry tonight.
It's what everyone is talking about in light of the Spitzer affair -- cheating and getting caught.
Our first panel of experts can address the whys and the hows.
Here in Los Angeles, Sandra Hope. She operates Mate Check P.I. a private investigating service that conducts infidelity investigations, covert surveillance and sting operations. She started her business after she caught her husband cheating with the mother of one of her daughter's friends.
From New York, Dr. Sudhir Venkatesh. He is a sociology professor at Columbia University. He spent seven-and-a-half years talking to high end escorts in New York and Chicago.
And in Vail, Colorado, Dr. Gail Saltz. We interrupted her ski vacation. She's an associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital-Will Cornell Medical Center. She is the author of a "Anatomy of A Secret Life."
And from Rome, Caveh Zahedi. He is a recovering sex addict himself, a filmmaker. He produced a film "I Am Sex Addict" about his addiction to prostitutes.
PINSKY: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Dr. Drew Pinsky filling in for Larry tonight.
And one of the things I love about live TV is you can never tell what's going to happen. We had a little technical glitch there and welcome back.
I was introducing our panel.
I had Noel Biderman. He is the founder of Ashley Madison Agency, which is an agency for married couples who are looking for relationships outside their marriage.
And then, finally, first, we're going to go to New York. We're going to talk to Vinnie Politan, who apparently, because of the interest in the Spitzer story, the Sirius Radio people have created a new radio channel. It's called "Client Number 9".
Vinnie, why did they do this?
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, "CLIENT #9," NEW SHOW ON SIRIUS RADIO: There was a demand for it. There was a demand for it. I mean the callers to all the other shows on the other hundreds of channels that we have were talking about this story. But we put it all in one place -- "Client 9 Radio".
PINSKY: And you dedicated it -- is it 24/7 "Client 9 Radio" or...
PINSKY: What kinds of things are you addressing on the show?
POLITAN: Well, there's a lot of things that callers wanted to address. Number one, we were talking about the discussion that it really started in America, where you have husbands and wives who were at home watching these press conferences with the wife standing next to the husband and then the discussion starts: If that was you, I'll tell you, I wouldn't be standing next to you. That was part of the discussion.
And then, of course, if you're involving a prostitute, everyone wants to talk about that.
PINSKY: Well, maybe.
POLITAN: Yes, well...
PINSKY: Do you think something good is going to come out of this?
POLITAN: Well, something good?
POLITAN: Well, we cleaned up something in New York, didn't we?
We got a governor out of office who was seeing prostitutes, so something good came out of that.
PINSKY: Well, maybe. I don't know.
PINSKY: Does anybody have any feelings about the wife and what she must be putting up with? I can imagine -- my heart just goes out for that woman. That's the one thing that I'm just...
POLITAN: Oh, absolutely. And that was part of the discussion, too, from the callers. And a lot of the women that were there talking about it. And this is something that I tried to explore with them. And I said, you know, a lot of people have opinions about the way she reacted and what she must be going through. And you try to get into the minds of some of the women.
And people, you know, sort of said, you know, you have to leave it up to her. She has to make that decision on how to react to all of this. And she made that decision.
But 100 percent, Drew, I mean everybody, the hearts go out, especially to the children.
And then what happens to the couple?
PINSKY: Oh, absolutely. I mean, listen, if there are victims in something like this, it if, in fact, the children.
Now here in Los Angeles, I have Sandra Hope with me. She operates Mate Check P.I. And you were cheated on.
SANDRA HOPE, FOUNDER, MATE CHECK P.I. STARTED BUSINESS AFTER HUSBAND CHEATED: Yes.
PINSKY: How does it feel to be the wife of a cheater?
HOPE: Oh, well, you know, it feels horrible. It feels violated, of course, horrible.
PINSKY: You've dedicated your career to getting back at some of these guys.
HOPE: Well, and I didn't -- to get back. Really, there's nobody out there really doing anything for infidelity. And if -- let's just say that these politicians or anybody that's high profile would have a decoy or have surveillance on them, maybe a lot of this could happen before the paparazzi or it comes out in the media. You know, if maybe the wife felt something might have happened and maybe even had a decoy go up and see if her husband would take a bait, it would -- before he actually did it.
PINSKY: So you're advocating sting operations?
HOPE: I -- well, yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: Gail -- Gail Saltz in Vail, Dr. Gail Saltz, is that a good idea, if you suspect somebody is cheating you should operate a sting?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST, AUTHOR, "ANATOMY OF A SECRET LIFE": In my opinion, no. Not really. I don't think that gets to the root of the problem. I think, you know, entrapment isn't necessarily going to tell you a lot about what's going on with your spouse.
In my opinion, you really want to get to the bottom of what's motivating these people in these situations. Sometimes it's conscious, sometimes it's not. But without getting to the root of that, just entrapping them with something, I don't think it's going to accomplish anything.
PINSKY: Gail, do you think it's the spouse's fault more often or is it something within the individual who's the cheater?
SALTZ: You know, I think it's usually within the cheater. In fact, there are very good marriages where someone ends up cheating, because most often it has to do with either they had a parent that cheated or -- you know, and they're repeating a story or it's about power and control. Because basically when you cheat, you make no commitment to that relationship. So have the complete upper hand.
So, for instance, for a middle-aged man who's feeling he's losing youth, he's losing vitality and he's trying to get power and control in a relationship, this can be a method of doing it. It also distances you -- your intimacy from you from your own spouse.
So, for people that are having difficulty with intimate relationships, this may be their -- albeit kind of crazy -- solution to that problem.
PINSKY: But no matter what, the relationship suffers and is diminished.
The intimacy is diminished, isn't it?
Vinnie, is it worse to be with a prostitute than to have a real sort of sustained extra-marital love affair?
What do your listeners say?
POLITAN: This is what really surprised me is that the women were saying the prostitute is worse. And the reason being, saying, listen, this was all about dirty, dirty sex. You know, they can almost forgive someone who is at work and has a relationship and the sparks sort of fly between two people and something happens one night. The women were much more offended by the prostitute.
HOPE: I do want to go back to the entrapment. I am sure that any woman could ask her, if she was in control, hiring somebody to go in and to see -- if the opportunity was there -- if their husband would take the bait and since the private investigator has confidentiality and doesn't do -- have any sex.
So I'm sure...
PINSKY: Oh, so you're actually -- you're the bait.
HOPE: I'm the bait or a decoy is the bait.
PINSKY: You're the bait. HOPE: So I'm sure any wife would like to know that they paid someone to go up and see if their husband would have an affair before there is someone who really does come along that really is going to have an affair with them. And before -- and I think that lady is absolutely wrong on entrapment, because, you know, she would have found out right away that there is a problem with her husband, could have dealt with it, went to marriage counseling. And it surely wouldn't be -- right now, he wouldn't be resigning.
PINSKY: Well, but, Gail, isn't it the case that once people are having instincts about this, oftentimes there's already a problem and maybe they should be seeing a professional about this?
SALTZ: Absolutely. Absolutely. Usually -- in fact, usually by the time someone is suspicious, there already is an affair in place. And usually by the time things have eroded enough that you have those kinds of suspicions, there is a problem in the marriage. And it may not have started for that reason -- as I said, it may have started because the cheater already had these other things going on. But usually it erodes into the marriage and there needs to be some repair going on.
And in terms of the other comments about, you know, is it better with a prostitute, is it better with a person -- I mean, for most women, if their spouse falls in love with somebody else, that's the most devastating, that kind of betrayal. And in terms of the idea of dirty sex versus non-dirty sex, I mean, you know, one motivation for seeing a prostitute can be that there's some sexual idea that the person wants to do that they feel is wrong and they feel ashamed about and they feel that they can't actually ask their spouse for that -- not that it justifies going to somebody else. But often that is at the root. There's some, you know, if you will, the technical term is perversion -- you know, there's something that's very different, that's off the beaten path that they want that they'd rather pay someone for, because they feel it would be demeaning to bring it into their relationship.
PINSKY: Gail, I'm going to switch the gear a little bit and talk to Caveh, who is in Rome. I'm going to -- bear with -- have everyone bear with us. There's a little bit of delay coming in from Rome.
Caveh, you're a sex addict, yes?
CAVEH ZAHEDI, RECOVERING SEX ADDICT, FILMMAKER, "I AM A SEX ADDICT": Yes.
And so a sex addict is motivated somewhat differently than the motivations, say, we've been discussing thus far, is that correct?
ZAHEDI: Well, I don't know. I think everybody has a certain kind of spectral level of sex addiction. The way Sex Addicts Anonymous defines it is people who are engaging in behaviors that they want to stop and they find that they can't. And I think a lot of people have that today, you know, the... PINSKY: Do you think Governor Spitzer...
ZAHEDI: ...they do things that they don't want to do and they can't stop.
PINSKY: Do you think Governor Spitzer was a sex addict?
ZAHEDI: I don't know. I mean I think if he was trying to stop -- and I assume he would be trying to stop, because it's something that's, you know, painful for his family and something that's terrible for his own career. So it seems like it's probably something he didn't want to be doing. So if he was still doing it anyway, I would assume he was doing it involuntarily.
PINSKY: Are there signs that spouses can look for to know whether or not they themselves are involved with a sex addict?
ZAHEDI: Well, I think one of the things about sex addiction is that you often do it when you have emotional pain. So if people start -- it's a way of numbing your pain, really. It's what -- how I did it. So I think if people find that people are going to pornography, for example, to numb their pain or starting to have sexual intrigues to numb their pain, then there's signs that they're sort of wired in that way, that that's what they go to for pain management.
PINSKY: Now, in New York, Dr. Venkatesh, you're a sociologist and you've studied the women that these males go to.
What can you tell us about them?
I understand it's not always about sex?
SUDHIR VENKATESH, PH.D. SOCIOLOGIST, SPENT YEARS STUDYING HIGH- END ESCORTS: That's right. In the research that we conducted in New York and in Chicago, about 40 percent of the exchanges -- for want of a better word -- have actually no sex being transacted. There is comfort. There's conversation. And we were quite startled. And I think that's a sign of this new indoor market, we call it, that's being created at the high end of the type of women that Governor Spitzer -- that ex-Governor Spitzer was having a liaison with.
PINSKY: Now, I've read your material.
Apparently there are three levels, is that correct?
VENKATESH: That's right. And the Kristen was really at the blue collar end -- the low end of the lucrative indoor market. And there are folks out there who are -- have no relationship to escort agencies. And those are the ones who are making $7,000, $10,000 a session. And they may only have...
PINSKY: They're sort of -- as I read your material, they're sort of on a retainer, is that right?
VENKATESH: That's right. They may have only four clients, five clients, six clients. And that's all they need to make quite a lot of money and live a -- well, not a comfortable life, but...
PINSKY: Can you speculate why somebody like, say, maybe, Caveh, looking for a thrill, or maybe Governor Spitzer, wouldn't have taken a advantage of a more discreet operation?
VENKATESH: I think there's certain psychological factors that I've heard about the -- some would say -- as far as the desire to get caught, the desire to live a risky life. We're talking about people who are generally very, very powerful and for whom the world is theirs. Everyone does what they want. And so they can turn the tables in a sexual relationship -- not just the risk involved of getting caught, but in the actual interchange, they can exercise all sort of fantasies about being on the other end of the stick, as it were, and being powerless.
PINSKY: Sandra Hope, you were nodding your head.
Have you found that to be the case with some of the people you've stunned, so to speak?
HOPE: Well, you know, it didn't matter, really, what profession you're in. You know, if you're going to cheat, you're going to cheat. And you have to find out if they would. That's why I keep on saying if someone was there. You know, everybody will go to an attorney. They tell you what to do. Go to your accountant, they tell you what to do. And it's the same as if you hire a private investigator to find out before it happens. And then you can go and you can seek help. You can find out where they would take it. And, you know, you can do something to stop it before it goes this far.
PINSKY: Noel Biderman, you run the agency that sets up people in marriages for extramarital affairs, right?
Isn't that what you do?
Who are these people?
NOEL BIDERMAN, FOUNDER, ASHLEY MADISON AGENCY, FINDS SEX FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE MARRIAGE: Well, I think they're everybody. I think they walk a wide spectrum across society. And I think they're -- you know, there are gentlemen. There's blue collar men. There's women who haven't been told they're beautiful or been given flowers in a long time and are seeking new validation. And they can come on our service and literally, within 20 minutes, they have a whole new slew of potential of suitors wanting to meet them, wanting to write to them, wanting to talk to them. And that's a revalidation for a lot of women.
And then there's a lot of people who get a chance to publish what it is that they're about. And they get to put up their hand in a really safe environment and say, you know, I'm not getting physical fulfillment in my relationship at home, is there a chance for, you know, somebody to meet with me?
And I think that's a really powerful opportunity.
(AUDIO GAP) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VALERIE BERTINELLI: Infidelity -- I know for a fact that I will never, ever, ever do that again because I know how it feels to hurt somebody that way and to be hurt in that manner. And I think your heart just falls apart and aches in both ways. When I knew that I had hurt Ed that way and when he had hurt me that way, there's -- who wants to feel like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
I'm Dr. Drew Pinsky in for Larry King tonight.
And the technical gremlins are out in force.
Thank you for bearing with us.
We were talking about cheaters. Sun spots or something. The satellites go down.
We're talking about cheaters and why they are unfaithful.
Caveh, how difficult is it to simply stop having sex when you're an addict?
ZAHEDI: It's very difficult. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life.
PINSKY: Similar to other addictions, yes?
ZAHEDI: It is similar. I mean it has its own, you know, particularities. I mean, sex is something that you do. It's not like drinking, where you can stop doing it. But it definitely is very similar in the way that -- what causes it and how to stop all that kind of stuff.
PINSKY: What things did you try before you finally got -- let's call it sober -- from sexual addiction?
ZAHEDI: Well, I tried therapy, and that didn't really work for me that well. And I tried just resisting -- you know, just will power, and that didn't really work for me, either.
PINSKY: What did you lose as a result of your sexual addiction?
ZAHEDI: Well, I lost a lot of relationships. I mean I -- all of my relationships, you know, fell apart because of it. And I really wanted to be in a relationship. And I realized I couldn't both be indulging in, you know, prostitutes and also be in a relationship with somebody.
PINSKY: One of the sort of opinions that continually flies about these days is you hear people blame the spouse for the behavior of the infidelity -- the person who is committing the infidelity.
Did the behavior of your spouse or whomever it was you were involved with have anything to do with your addiction?
ZAHEDI: No, not really. I mean definitely it has to do with pain. But the pain can come from anywhere. It can come from your career. You know, it doesn't necessarily have to do anything with your spouse.
PINSKY: Sandra, you wanted to say something about what it was about the Clinton affair that impacted all of this?
HOPE: Yes. I feel after the Clinton/Monica Lewinsky incident, you know, women out there were thinking, you know, I can get a politician, someone high profile, I can write a book, you know, I can go have my own talk show, make money. And, you know, anybody that's a politician or anybody high power, anybody that's -- has money has more women after them, can get women easier and have people sort...
PINSKY: So, but, you know...
PINSKY: ...President Clinton, when he was asked why he did this, basically said it was because I could.
PINSKY: It's inexcusable, right?
Now, Noel Biderman, aren't you concerned that you are causing people harm?
Aren't there children involved in this?
Aren't there wives and spouses out there whose lives are being taken part because of the services you guys are offering?
BIDERMAN: Well, I think that these -- in a 30 second commercial on TV or a 60 second radio spot, we're not going to convince someone to take up this kind of life step and stage of, you know, having an affair. So what we really are trying to tell people, if you've made that decision in your life, use a service like ours, where it's safe and secure. Don't visit prostitutes. Don't use a singles dating service and lie. Don't do it in the workplace, where there's other repercussions.
Here's a chance for you to kind of say this is what I need, this is what I'm looking for and hopefully find someone of like mind to connect with.
So we don't look at it that we're in a persuasion business. We're just in the information distribution business and here is a great Web site where you can go and find an opportunity to meet with someone of a like mind.
PINSKY: Dr. Venkatesh, in your studies, is that a different kind of person that would go to something like the organization that Noel runs as opposed to someone who would see a prostitute?
VENKATESH: I think so. But, you know, over the course of one's life, people change. And I think that's one of the things to -- that we have to keep in mind about this, is that the -- in modern sex work, in the industry, a lot of the Johns are actually paying for a relationship, which differs from the old times where it might be one act, paying for it and then moving on.
The money that's being exchanged is actually being there to create a partnership with another person, almost like a fictional marriage, in a way. So it's a very different time that we're living in.
PINSKY: Gail, any theories as to why that sort of trend is occurring?
SALTZ: Well, I think that -- I mean, yes. I think, actually, men want -- do want emotional connection, too. And I think that that's become more acceptable. I think the idea that, you know, I'm just man and I just want sex is less common today because it's much more acceptable to be -- I have feelings, I want to talk to somebody about my feelings and that's part of the act.
But, on the other hand, I would say, the idea that you pay someone really makes it this commitment-free relationship. And that is really key, that men are paying women so they that basically the woman will go away at the end or go away when they want them to go away. So they don't owe them anything. They're not trapped in this relationship in any sort of way and they don't have to deal with that two-sided kind of relationship.
PINSKY: Does a prominent man -- a man of power like Spitzer, is he more likely to use that kind of a service as opposed to actually having a relationship?
And as a corollary to that, do you think he had a relationship with that's prostitute?
SALTZ: You know, this is what I would say. It was a very, very high risk, self-destructive act. And many politicians are high risk people. And it's served them well, in many respects. They were born to be risk takers. They had that temperament. They have used it in very positive ways to create this amazing career. But they're still risk takers. And this was a very high risk and self-destructive act.
So I think -- I think, in that sense, it went together.
HOPE: You know, I just wanted to comment on, Gail -- when I am trying to help infidelity before it starts, we don't have sex. We will -- you know, or pay just to go in and see if the chance is given to a man, if he would take the bait...
PINSKY: Of the times that they...
HOPE: But I just want to say...
PINSKY: Wait. Let me ask -- go ahead.
HOPE: But I'm saying that she is saying, you know, well if, you know, it's entrapment and actually saying that my service -- when we don't have sex with them, we're not (INAUDIBLE)...
PINSKY: But, Sandra, the question is, of the people that you're asked to go after, what's the percentage that actually take the bait?
Is it pretty much all the time?
HOPE: It pretty much is because...
PINSKY: So why not -- why don't they just get professional help right then as opposed to heating this up to a point where they have to actually look at him being...
HOPE: Before if you go -- when -- if they go to a psychologist or they go to a counselor to get help, he's going to say no. But here they have it on video and they tape it. Yes, this is what you said to her. Yes, you'd go to bed with her. Yes, you would. You tried to pick her up and take her to dinner and there's absolute proof in that counseling session instead of one saying yes, one saying no.
PINSKY: Well, you're right, it does break through denial and it does cause people to be truthful. I don't know, rigorous honesty is something that we're all interested in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One more point I have to bring up...
PINSKY: We've got to go to break.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry.
PINSKY: Catching those who stray is high tech enterprise. We're going to meet a husband and wife private eye team who make it their business to nab cheaters.
And we are taking your calls tonight, as well, when LARRY KING LIVE returns.
PINSKY: You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.
I am Dr. Drew Pinsky sitting in for Larry tonight.
Now that we know some, at least, about why people cheat, how do you catch them in the act?
A couple of private eyes know all the tricks.
Joining me from New York are Jimmy Mesis. He's a private investigator and editor-in-chief of "P.I. Magazine". And Rosemary Mesis. She's also a private investigator. And, yes, they are married to each other.
Jimmy, is the business of cheating a lucrative business?
JIMMIE MESIS, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "PI MAGAZINE": It is, but not as lucrative as it used to be years ago. A lot of people are doing their own detective work nowadays.
PINSKY: Is that because of high-tech material that is just sort of available in the spy stores?
J. MESIS: Yes, the Internet has really opened up doors to technology. People are reading more books, learning how to do it themselves. But it's going to take a licensed private investigator to really help people to go to court.
PINSKY: So these are investigative devices that can help you build a case?
J. MESIS: Well, more of what the people are doing is they are using devices just to confirm for themselves that their spouse is cheating. When we get involved, we're only just helping to confirm independently that their lawyers might need.
PINSKY: Can you guys describe for me some of your sting operations?
J. MESIS: We don't do sting operations. We feel that we just want to watch a day in the life of a person when they don't think anybody is watching them. We want to see what they are doing. Our goal is not to sting anybody. Our goal is just to be able to report back to the client what a suspecting significant other is actually doing.
PINSKY: Rosemary, what's the most common reason that someone would hire a private investigator?
ROSEMARY MESIS, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: When you're speaking with regards to infidelity cases, there are several reasons. Suspicion, first of all; the client, when they contact us, they're contacts us because they're surmising. There's some type of suspicion there. They're not calling us cold.
PINSKY: Now, you guys are going to show us some of the gadgets that people use to catch a cheater. Can you do that for me?
J. MESIS: Yes, what's common right now is the first product. It's the -- usually a husband or a wife, they want to see whether or not their spouse is cheating. A new market that has come out is called the semen spy. It's actually an infidelity test kit. The kit is actually used to determine whether or not there's any signs of semen stains, let's say, in either person's underwear or undergarments.
The test will prove positive or negative for the semen stains on the garment. That will let you know whether or not they're actually cheating. There should never be a reason for a woman to have semen stains in her underwear.
PINSKY: I was feeling sad with this topic. Now my soul is starting to slip out of my body. OK, what else you got there.
J. MESIS: Well, the same kit. Just to mention one other thing, we found that there's a spinoff to it.
PINSKY: I bet you I know what you're going to say. The parents are worried about what their kids are up to.
J. MESIS: Exactly. They're actually using it to determine if their adolescents are having sex, but it's unprotected sex, which is the most important. The third spin off is some families are actually using this test to determine whether or not there might be any evidence of potential child molestation. There should be no reason why there would ever be any type of semen stains on a child, any child.
PINSKY: I have a feeling for the adolescent issue I'll be back for another LARRY KING fill-in one of these days, just for that very topic. What else you got here to show us as gadgetry that people can use to further detect? I'm holding my breath.
J. MESIS: Well, this one item right here is a caller I.D. We're all familiar with caller I.D. This is actually a two-way caller I.D. Instead of just logging the phone number coming in, it shows the owner the number going out. So it will record outgoing and incoming phone calls.
PINSKY: I understand you have a GPS tracking system also. Is that right?
J. MESIS: Well, there are different types of GPS tracking devices. But this particular device is very small. It's a device that a person could put anywhere on the car. This is actually a recorded GPS device, where you put it on the vehicle, leave it on the car for several days. Take it off, plug it into your USB port of any computer and it will be able to show you exactly where the vehicle has been, day, time, duration and speed.
Parents are actually using this device for monitoring their children as well.
PINSKY: That one sounds reasonable to me. In fact, I'm going to go right out and get that to put on each of my kids' cars as soon as they get one. Anything else there?
J. MESIS: Well, we have another little device. This is called the Spy Finder. The Spy Finder is actually used by people to determine whether or not there are hidden cameras installed in their residence.
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So if I'm suspicious, not that my wife is cheating -- I'm suspicion that she's spying on me, that's what I use this for?
J. MESIS: You know, it's kind of interesting. Yes, it could work both ways.
PINSKY: Or do I use it when I want to cheat to make sure the room is debugged?
J. MESIS: Yes, you could do that also. This was designed for law enforcement to find cameras that may be hidden in an establishment. Right now, many women are using this device to make sure that their husband or significant other isn't making them an under water or an under world star in voyeurism.
PINSKY: Oh, that's very interesting. So these Internet tapes that people are distributing -- yes, that makes sense. Every young person ought to have that in their apartment. Rosemary, I understand you do a lot of the counseling for people who search out their cheating spouses. I imagine even if you just came to the point where you discovered somebody, both people would have -- I mean the person being snooped on would have feelings, even though he or she was guilty.
R. MESIS: Yes, but if they're guilty, I mean, I'm going to protect my client. I'm not going to care about the feelings of the guilty party.
PINSKY: What kind of counseling do you have to do for these people after things are uncovered?
R. MESIS: Well, actually, the counseling commences from the first phone call that comes into the office. This not being the only type of work I do. When I get a phone call and I get a person that's reluctant to give me their name or starts hemming and hemming on the phone or you hear them hesitating, I know right away I'm dealing with an infidelity case. At that point, I give them the opportunity to speak.
In doing this type of work, there's a lot of emotion involved. Most times they want to express their emotion. They want somebody to listen to them.
PINSKY: Do you ever refer them to a professional?
R. MESIS: I would refer them to a professional if at the end of the case, whatever they were suspicion of, was not actually accurate. For example, if I was representing a woman, and she had suspicions that her husband was cheating on her, and not only cheating on her with a woman, maybe with a man. She's going from one incident to another because we're not finding anything positive to satisfy her.
At that point, when I'm producing the report to her and I'm sitting in a meeting with her and trying to explain it very gently, I will then, at that point suggest that she speak with a professional, that perhaps there's a problem on her end.
PINSKY: But if you find the cheating, you never try to salvage the relationship by sending it to a professional service?
R. MESIS: That's not my profession. That's not for me. I'm not an attorney. I'm not a doctor. I could recommend that, maybe, if they want to salvage the marriage, they go see a marriage counselor. But in my estimation, I think both parties would have to do that. It can't just be one party trying to salvage a marriage.
J. MESIS: Our goal is basically to confirm or deny whether or not there is an extramarital affair.
PINSKY: I understand that. One of the patterns people get into is they discover these cheating spouses and they go out, end that relationship and they find another cheating spouse. Now that you've caught somebody, the next thing you probably need if you're going to end this relationship is a lawyer.
Two of them with lots of experience will be here with us when LARRY KING returns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That was openly admitted about cheating and alike.
SNOOP DOGG, RAPPER: Yes.
KING: Were you able to get over that?
DOGG: Yes, through time and perseverance and me figuring out what I need and what makes me who I am. When I come home to my wife and my kids, that's what makes me feel better than anything in the world, to know they have somebody successful in life that they can look up to and say, I'm a part of their lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There's no doubt about what tonight's show is about. Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Dr. Drew Pinsky, sitting in for Larry tonight. Cheating has all kinds of consequences. Certainly, legal ramifications are very prominent among them. Here to weigh in on that and of infidelity are Lynn Soodik. She's a celebrity divorce attorney, as is Neil Hersch.
Both know about cheating from a professional standpoint. I want to emphasize that, professional. Lynn, how many of your clients divorce because of infidelity?
LYNN SOODIK, CELEBRITY DIVORCE ATTORNEY: A large portion divorce because of infidelity or because of finances. There's other reasons, too.
PINSKY: By the time it gets to you, infidelity is a prominent reason for a divorce?
NEIL HERSCH, CELEBRITY DIVORCE ATTORNEY: You know, one of two marriages end in divorce. At least one out of two of those divorces have infidelity as part of the cause. It's never the root cause. It is the symptomatic cause. We have to understand that and recognize it. But, yes, it is a prominent part of the work we do.
PINSKY: Who's doing the cheating? Is it men or women, both?
HERSCH: You know what, it's both. It's remarkable. The old adage that men are out there doing more cheating than women, that empirically is not my experience.
SOODIK: I think more men cheated in the past because they had more opportunity. Often women stayed home with the children. Men met people to cheat with through work. Now with the Internet, people are finding people on the Internet, finding people different places. And women are cheating now as much as men.
PINSKY: Sandra saying yes.
HOPE: I absolutely agree with her because now women have to, like she said, go out in the work place. And the Internet, of course, cheating and chatting online. It's really become a big problem with infidelity.
PINSKY: And women lead with the relationship, isn't that right? They start the inter-personal part first before the physical contact?
SOODIK: It seems to me a lot of people meet someone that they like, they want to have relationship and then they choose to have an affair. Often men go for the sex and different.
PINSKY: We're going to take a quick phone call. This is coming in from Toronto. Toronto, you're on the line.
CALLER: Yes, whenever these discussions takes place, it seems that the focus is on men who cheat. I was wondering if we could hear some discussion about women who cheat on their husbands, the reasons for it, the problems that occur because of it, the consequences.
HOPE: I could answer that based on my years of experience. Men will cheat, like she explained, for sex. Women will cheat to try to get a better life or try to get someone to pay more attention to them. When you first meet somebody, of course, you always put on the charm and the attention. Then it always fades away.
So women are more emotional. If someone, even in line at a store, is paying attention, they're all giggling and think it's great.
PINSKY: So it's safe to say, it's been your experience but that women tend to cheat when there's a deficiency in the relationship, while men cheat more because they can?
HERSCH: Relationships are difficult to maintain at any level and at every level. I don't think there's a canned answer to the question. I think that the point is that with each individual that you see and you meet, they have their motivations, their own personal needs and wants. When those aren't met, people try to seek out other avenues, whether it's work or exercise or anything of that nature. And starting a relationship, sexual or otherwise, is amongst the issues that are, as I said before, symptomatic of a hole in the relationship.
SOODIK: I can say this; I don't ask people why they cheat. But the caller asked about the consequences, and the consequences are severe. Some people forgive someone fore cheating. Other people can never forgive, and they end up with a divorce. PINSKY: We'll continue this conversation in just a second. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up at the top of the hour. My friend Soledad O'Brien is hosting tonight. Let's check in with her and see what's on tap. Soledad?
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Dr. Drew, nice to see you. Coming up at the top of the hour, we have some breaking news out of Florida today. The Democratic party there will not -- I repeat, they will not have another round of primaries. Nobody exactly expected this. It has sent both the campaigns scurrying about, trying to figure out what to do next.
Conventional wisdom holds this could really benefit one campaign in particular. We'll tell you which one. We'll also look at the latest tsunami to hit the economy, the outright collapse of one of the most respected banks in America. The shockwaves are not limited to Wall Street. They could very well hit everyone hard.
Plus, you won't believe what the CEO who took the bank to its knees got paid. All that and more at the top of the hour.
PINSKY: Thanks Soledad. We've got more ground to cover here. We'll do that when LARRY KING LIVE returns.
PINSKY: Welcome back. We're talking extramarital affairs, adultery, infidelity. It all seems to be the same thing. It's cheating. Or is it? Neil, all the same from a legal standpoint?
HERSCH: Yes, it is. We have no fault in California. We don't care that there was cheating in a marriage as a grounds for divorce because we have no grounds. We do care if someone spends money on someone they shouldn't be spending the money on. The community would get that reimbursed. We do care that someone isn't home taking care of the kids and is out with other people, whether cheating or otherwise.
So cheating in our world has a much more limited scope than much of the topic that we've been talking about. But it is still important.
PINSKY: Let me ask you about the gadgets that we were hearing about earlier in the program. Should somebody deploy these kinds of things to build a case? Should they build a case on their own? Does that help their case?
SOODIK: In California it doesn't matter.
PINSKY: Doesn't matter.
SOODIK: So you don't really need to prove they're cheating. In New York, it may be another matter, because it's fault. You can end up with more than half of the community if somebody is cheating.
PINSKY: Do you guys investigate what's going on in the motivation to seek divorce? In other words, would you ever hire someone like Sandra to operate a sting to see if there's a reason for a divorce? Or if someone comes and says, I want a divorce, that's where you limit your focus?
HERSCH: By the time they come to my office, they know why they're getting a divorce, and they're moving forward. We do have occasion in the family law in California to use private investigators. As I said, that is in the area of child custody, in order to see what someone is doing, if they're acting properly with their children, if they're being responsible at home, or if they're doing things they shouldn't be doing.
PINSKY: Jimmie Mesis is still with us. He's a private investigator. He's the one that shared some of these technological gadgets with us. Jimmie, do you not find people are using these things so much in California because of the no-fault divorce?
J. MESIS: I don't think that's why they're using it. They're using it to prove to other family members and friends that's there actually is a cheating spouse involved in a relationship. Sometimes nobody will believe them that their spouse is cheating. Or if there's older children, in their teens, perhaps, and the mother says to the kids, your dad's cheating, they can't believe it, so they have to actually show the kids proof, pictures or video that their father is actually with another woman.
It's not used for litigation, but more to prove to other family members that, hey, I did catch you.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SOODIK: Let me tell you this, if you show your child that your spouse is cheating, you're going to have a problem in a custody battle. That's a bad thing to do to a minor child, to show that to them.
PINSKY: I would agree.
HOPE: Also, you know, in the no-fault state, as they were mentioning, on cheating, what you want to find out, just like they said, where are they spending time? Home? Are they spending it out? Are they not coming home? Who would be a better parent to stay home and raise the children? Who is out having an affair, spending money going on trips.
PINSKY: You're the ultimate high-tech gadget.
HOPE: That's right.
PINSKY: You're a biological gadget.
HOPE: That's right. When you send out a decoy, you can also find out questions you would never be able to find out. I find out information that a guy has another phone. I find out that he has another apartment, condo. PINSKY: It's this cat and mouse game. Dealing in the world of mental health that I work in, once you're playing cat and mouse, you're in trouble. We'll be back with our panel and the subject of cheating after this break. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.
PINSKY: We're back for the last word on cheating. I'm Dr. Drew Pinsky, sitting for Larry King. We're going to take a quick phone call. Tucson, you're on the air.
PINSKY: Go right ahead.
CALLER: My question is: I found my boyfriend cheating on my yesterday afternoon. So when I went over to check in on him, the woman was there. He wouldn't come to the door. He wouldn't answer his phone. This was after the story he gave me was that he went to Pittsburgh for a job interview for three days.
When he came back to town he didn't call. He didn't call. He didn't call like he said he would. That's why I went over there. We had been, as of like last Tuesday, trying to work things out.
The other bad thing is we had only been together for six months. I was pregnant. I miscarried right before Christmas. So after about a month, like at the end of January, that's when he told me he didn't have time for me and he was working all the time. And looking back now I realize that he was cheating since October, from almost the beginning.
PINSKY: Neil, as you said, cheating is usually a symptom. Indeed, it's one of the later symptoms. One thing kills me, we're all talking about why men cheat. All men are just this way. The really interesting thing to ask is why then don't most men cheat? They don't.
I experience dread at the thought of cheating. To me, it's a direct assault to my family and wife. Don't most men feel that way?
HERSCH: Well, there's of course that issue that it is a violation of trust, and it's a violation of the contract that you made with your mate or your spouse. And there's this fear, I believe, and justified, that that will impact your relationship. It could be the ruination of a family.
PINSKY: Even if they don't found out. I will tell you as a mental health professional, it does impact dramatically.
HERSCH: Obviously, there's nothing good that can come of it. And nothing good ever really does. It's something that is -- I would like to think it's the exception rather than the rule. But it's a prevalent issue that we have to deal with. There's no question about it. HOPE: It's the most difficult thing to do, to have an affair and try to keep your family together, and make two people happy. It's very hard. You know, it's very mental, exhausting. That's why they get caught. Because eventually it's going to make two people happy, instead of making one person happy.
PINSKY: Lynn, any opinion on this?
SOODIK: I told you, cheaters never prosper.
PINSKY: That's sort of the lost word on this. Isn't it, that cheating ends up in really serious controversy, serious pain. I would just say, we started out talking about sexual addictions. If people have a sexual addiction, they should have it treated, because that can be treated as was pointed out in the first part of the show.
Secondly, if somebody is attracted to cheaters, I would say take a look at that. That is where the spouse's role is involved in this. Why are you going after cheaters? That's something to ask yourself. It's a very important thing. But this idea that somehow the spouse caused cheating, do you see that very often? I really don't see that in my work.
SOODIK: I don't know what causes it. It's an awful thing that happens. It usually causes a marriage to dissolve. We don't see why. Therapists do.
PINSKY: You don't deploy therapists. You don't try to salvage things. Once they come to you, it's --
SOODIK: No, I do. I think Neil and I maybe have a little disagreement on this. But I tell people if you think you can save the marriage, now is the time to do it before you file a petition, before you get into this divorce. If you want to save it, I'll send you to people. If you don't think you can --
HERSCH: There's no question that we have an ethical obligation to ask people if they're certain that they want to go forward with the divorce. All I meant was that the kind of work we do, and at the level we do it, by the time people walk into our office, the war is pretty much done.
PINSKY: Well, I want to thank you guys for joining me. IT's been an interesting discussion. Sandra, if I see you coming my way, I'll know what to think.
HOPE: -- more information, you can always look at CheckPI.com, my services. And I might be sitting right here.
PINSKY: I'd like to thank all of our guests for joining us this evening. Check out our website. It's CNN.com/LARRYKING. There you can download our current podcast or you can email upcoming guests. We're open 24/7 at CNN.com/LarryKing. Tomorrow, we will take a look at the number one issue on American's minds, I think everyone up here on this panel, including myself, the economy. Our panel will have some sound advice for protecting your investments in scary times. That's LARRY KING LIVE Tuesday.
Now, here's Soledad O'Brien, sitting in for Anderson Cooper, and "AC 360."
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