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Shipwreck Victims Plucked From Freezing Waters; New York Governor Paterson's Office Romances; Reverend Wright's Full Message; U.S. Military Reaches Tragic Milestone in Iraq; Iraq War Linked to Falling U.S. Dollar?
Aired March 23, 2008 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, victims of a horrible shipwreck being plucked from freezing waters. Four already dead, maybe more. We're on with rescuers.
Another governor, another sex scandal. You thought the other guy messed up. Here's what they are saying about the new guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had girlfriends who are on the state payroll and he's taking them up to the day's inn and then in return they are getting promoted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: New York Governor Paterson's office romances, (INAUDIBLE) and how they were paid for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. JEREMIAH WRIGHT, PASTOR: Who cares about what a poor black man has to face every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Black Liberation Theology. This man says it's bad for America. And he's no fan of Barack Obama either. Tough questions for a controversial politician.
Plus, you've heard the soundbites over and over again. Tonight, we go beyond the soundbites. Reverend Wright's full message. It's what you didn't hear him say. All this on the weekend rundown.
Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. We have got a packed show tonight. But before we do anything else, we got some breaking news. Let me just say this. They don't call it the Deadliest Catch over on the Discovery Channel for nothing.
Four fishermen are dead in the frigid waters off of Alaska. One, apparently, still missing. This has happened when their boat started taking on freezing water. It's off the Aleutian Islands in a place called Dutch Harbor. I mean, may as well be the North Pole. This is one official picture that we've received from the Coast Guard in the last couple of hours. It's from the deck of the Cutter Monroe. Forty-three fishermen have been rescued or plucked from six to eight-foot seas. Joining us now is the Coast Guard Commander Todd Trimpert. He's on the phone from Juneau, Alaska.
Commander, thanks so much for joining us. Do we know at this point how many men fell overboard?
TODD TRIMPERT, U.S. COAST GUARD: Mr. Sanchez, good evening sir. Yes sir. As a matter of fact, all 47 people from this vessel abandoned ship about 0500 this morning.
SANCHEZ: So they were in those waters. How long can you last in those waters?
TRIMPERT: Well sir, the water temperature right there is 39 degrees. Most of them were fortunate enough to be wearing survival suits which will extend your survival time to a few hours. Without a survival suite, your -- generally, you survival time is less than 30 minutes.
SANCHEZ: So what happened to the four guys who died?
TRIMPERT: We're not sure at this point in time, sir. Certainly, the investigation will determine what their cause of death actually is. Certainly, they were in the water a long time and it's become very difficult, you know, when you've been in the water that long even with a survival suit.
SANCHEZ: I understand it was what, six to eight-foot seas or something like that. That mean those are tough waters but not for a boat that size, right? That's not usually the kind of seas that would bring a boat down.
TRIMPERT: That's correct sir. The weather on seen was ten-foot seas. Winds were 30 to 35 miles an hour. We do not think that weather was the causal factor when this happen. In the investigation, it's the exact causes is ongoing right now.
SANCHEZ: What are you doing about this one fellow who's missing?
TRIMPERT: Sir, we have an ongoing search right now. We have two helicopters and a ship the Coast Guard Cutter Monroe. They are continuing to search and it will continue to search throughout the evening.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know what they say about the Coast Guard, Semper Paratus, always prepared. Glad you guys are there and we'll keep checking with you to see what happens. Certainly, if there's any new information on this story during this newscast, we'll bring it to our viewers right away.
Commander, thanks again.
Don't forget, this fishing boat was not in the most hospitable piece of water. This is a place called Dutch Harbor. And it was really rocking today. Choppy seas and then there is the weather that we were talking about a little while ago.
Jacqui Jeras has been following up on this for us as well. She is joining us now for bringing us up to date on what the condition still are there.
Jacqui?
(WEATHER REPORT)
SANCHEZ: You know what, Jacqui, we got the mayday call from the actual event when it happened. When apparently this boat start taking on water. We're going to have that. We're going to try and turn it around and as soon as we're able to get it into the system, we're going to let you hear it for yourself at home as we continue to follow up on this story.
What is going on in the governor's office in the State of New York? We've been watching this story play out and almost can say now, it was wow. First, Eliot Spitzer resigns amid a call girl scandal. David Paterson has sworn in. He's New York's first legally blind African-American governor liked by most people who know him on both sides of the isle.
The next day, Paterson admits that he, too, has had an extramarital affair or affairs. Apparently used campaign money to pay for hotel rooms in some instances. Not clear, he is paying that back.
Joining us now is Fred Dicker. He writes for the "New York Post."
Fred, thanks so much for being with us.
FRED DICKER, NEW YORK POST: And good evening, Rick. Greetings from Albany.
SANCHEZ: I understand that you guys are running with a story tomorrow that says that there have been 13 other occasions where he got, this governor, got hotel rooms near the capital where he already had a home which begs the question, why did he need a hotel room? I imagine that's what you're going to be asking?
DICKER: Well, sure. And you know, keep in mind, he wasn't even governor at the time. You could make the case that as the governor, it would be more likely. But as governor, he would have had a mansion to live in, if he chose to. But at the time he was either a state senator or lieutenant governor, he had a lot of expenditures, both on his campaign payroll and as well as the state payroll that he's being asked a lot of questions about.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me tell you what he says. We have been in contact with his office moments ago. Here's some of the key points. They say, women involved were not subordinates and subsequently were never promoted as a result of any affairs. They say also, he never knowingly misused campaign or state funds in any of these instances.
In your reporting, have you found information to the contrary to what the governor's office is telling us tonight?
DICKER: Well, they are being very careful in what they say. The answer is, no. There's no proof that they are lying. Of course, if in fact, they were abusing the state payroll or abusing campaign committees, the general sense is they wouldn't admit it.
They are saying there's no evidence to the best of our knowledge, et cetera. There's a lot of journalists, Rick, as you know looking for more information as we speak. But right now there's no smoking gun to contradict what they are claiming.
SANCHEZ: How do we get to this point? First, we as Americans watch a governor who leaves office as a result of a prostitution scandal. Then we have another -- a new governor who comes out and says, look, I had a problem between me and my wife, it involved an extramarital affair, but it's behind us now. And most people said, you know what? We get that. We're ready to move on. How did we get to this point now?
DICKER: Let me just tell you that never in New York political history has there been a double scandal like this ever. Maybe no state has had anything quite like this.
So there's no good answer, especially when you keep in mind that Eliot Spitzer was the first governor to go down. He was Mr. Shut Up of Wall Street and national power gun. Supposedly a virtue, former attorney general. So this state is in shock and reeling from these experiences.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you. Is this thing possibly going to end up with the governor losing his office? Does it have that potential?
(CROSSTALK)
DICKER: Many people think that it's about 50/50 that the new governor, David Paterson, will make it to the end of his term. Not everything all about him is out yet. There are a lot of people looking and we -- given what's happened in the last two weeks, who knows what tomorrow is going to bring.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's go through a couple of series of questions before I leave you. Is there any evidence that he was co-mingling with women who were his subordinates?
DICKER: Yes. I mean, he was involved with employees of the state. He could have influenced their careers even if they were in his direct subordinates. Although, there is no evidence for sure yet that he actually did that, but there is some, yes.
SANCHEZ: Do we know if he rewarded or promoted any of these women at any time?
DICKER: There's suspicion, but again, there's no direct proof.
SANCHEZ: I'll tell you, it's an interesting story, certainly one that's not only been picked up. I mean, you guys, they call you the tabs. But "The New York Times" has been writing about this as well.
Fred, thanks so much for joining us. Let's take this story over to our panel now. Are you ready? Here we go. Alexis Scott, the publisher of the nation's first black-owned daily newspaper. Martha Zoller call it like she sees it on her very popular radio show in Atlanta. And Cynthia Good founded "Pink." A lifestyle magazine for business women.
Ladies, if he ends up (INAUDIBLE), is it worse than what Governor Spitzer did in visiting a prostitute?
ALEXIS SCOTT, PUBLISHER, CEO, ATLANTA DAILY WORLD: It's not worse because Spitzer actually was paying for prostitution while he was sitting governor. I think the incident, it seems to be so far anyway, that Paterson has actually admitted that he had these affairs without prompting and as they are going through his records and saying he's made the effort to repay the campaign for money that he used. So I think it's a different situation. It's bad but I think it's a different situation.
SANCHEZ: Do you think he's going to be OK with this, Martha?
MARTHA ZOLLER, HOST, MARTHA ZOLLER SHOW: I think that if it comes up -- if it stops in 2003, which it looks like that's where this ended up was in 2003. If it's more recent, he could be in trouble. I think I agree with the reporter, it could be 50/50. But I do agree with Alexis that what Eliot Spitzer did was worse. It's across state lines. It was federal charges. I mean, it was -- I mean, here's a guy that was supposed to be...
SANCHEZ: What if it's proven -- which is by the way, in fairness to the governor at this point, this story is taking on new dimensions because it's now been picked up by all the tabs, "The New York Times" is writing about it, and apparently there are other incidents involved.
But in all fairness to him, there's no proof that any of this happened. There's just a lot of bad explanations at this point. If it comes down to the point that they were subordinates and one of them was promoted any time or that he used campaign funds or that he used state funds...
ZOLLER: Then he's out.
SANCHEZ: He's out?
CYNTHIA GOOD, FOUNDER, PINK MAGAZINE: Yes. I think that brings up big concerns if this is in fact accurate information, especially when it comes to his employees, the women who were working with him, his subordinates. Lots of implications there, legal and otherwise.
SANCHEZ: Are you guys three strong women willing to give him the benefit of the doubt right now with what we know and don't know?
GOOD: Absolutely.
ZOLLER: Yes.
SCOTT: Yes.
GOOD: I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
SCOTT: But I agree, though, that if it involved subordinates, then I think that's bad.
ZOLLER: It's a whole different ball game.
SANCHEZ: Why? Why is it so bad?
SCOTT: Because he's using the position, his power over his employees. That's sexual harassment. That's the definition.
Good: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Do you give him points for coming forward with his wife and originally saying look I had a problem in the past.
ZOLLER: Oh I did initially but it looks like he only told a little bit of the story. You know, if you're going to -- if you get one chance to do a Mea Culpa, that's not going to end you up losing your job. And then you have to tell everything. OK? And if he didn't tell everything, it's just as bad as not telling anything.
SANCHEZ: Are we too Victorian, Cynthia, in this country about stuff like this?
GOODL Well and I have to acknowledge that we just did in the most recent issue of "PINK," a piece about since there are more women in the workplace, we're seeing more women committing adultery as well. But the fact that these wives are continuing to be put in a position by the handlers of these fellows who are in politics, political officials, that the wives are having to stand by their man, that's a bit disconcerting, too, in my opinion. I don't think that's (INAUDIBLE) have to stand there...
(CROSSTALK)
ZOLLER: Well, in this issue...
SANCHEZ: Down to ten seconds.
SCOTT: This is a little bit different because his wife has also admitted that she's had affairs as well. So they are a little bit different and they're both out playing so...
SANCHEZ: And who are we to judge when we're in situations like that. That's a question that we also raise. Ladies, stay right there. Apparently, we're going to get that mayday call that I told you about just moments ago. Apparently, it's going to be coming in over the next couple of minutes. We're going to let you hear that at home.
Also, you heard the soundbites from the Reverend Jeremiah Wright. They landed Barack Obama in a pile of controversy. Tonight, we go deeper, much deeper. The Reverend Wright beyond the soundbites.
First, though, some people drive better than others. It comes easier to some. But I think we can all agree that this should never happen. The story behind the pictures.
And trillions of dollars in debt at no end in sight to the spending in this country. Who is paying it all back and when? Are you under 40? Watch out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back to the world headquarters of CNN. I'm Rick Sanchez. Some pictures we're following for you now that we've been getting over the last couple of hours. This is from Bloomville, Arkansas. This is a huge industrial fire. Something exploded. It's at the Cargill Meat Solutions plant.
The situation apparently has gone from bad to worse. It's fire triggered an ammonium. It's at hydrous ammonia which can be deadly. It forced the evacuation of nearly 200 people who live in the nearby area. No one has been hurt but people are being let back into their homes tonight.
Finally in some areas adjacent to this situation and tonight fire fighters are telling us that they intend to let this thing burn itself out and not get too near it because of the hydrous ammonia.
Austin, Texas, now, all you had to do was knock. A driver of a Toyota SUV loses control and instead smashes right into a house. A family of three was home, fortunately, in another room at the time. No one was hurt in that situation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We're back. As you probably know, this is the hottest topic in the news this week. Something that many of you might never have heard before. It is called Black Liberation Theology. Have you heard of it before this week? It is the thinking and the words that are expressed in many black churches across America.
Notice I said many, not all. It is described by some as a way of looking for social justice and equality through religion. But to others it's hateful. Especially after hearing this soundbite from Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Senator Barack Obama's Former Minister.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. JEREMIAH WRIGHT, OBAMA'S FORMER PASTOR: They want us to sing "God bless America." No, no, no. Not God bless America, God damn America. It's in the bible for killing innocent people. God damn America.
It just came to me within the past few weeks, y'all, why so many folk are hating on Barack Obama. He doesn't fit the model. He ain't white. He ain't rich. And he ain't privileged.
Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Many of you who have been watching the news are probably sick and tired of watching just those soundbites, but we want you to know that just a little bit and prompter hold on just a minute there. We're going to play you not just those little soundbites that everybody has been talking about it. It has infuriated many people but actually the entire conversation in context.
One of the persons who listened to those soundbites and was incensed by Reverend Wright's words is Ken Blackwell. He is a Republican. He is also a former Ohio secretary of state. He's now a senior fellow at the Family Research Council.
Here's how he describes to me in our conversation what Black Liberation Theology is in his eyes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN BLACKWELL, SENIOR FELLOW FOR FAMILY EMPOWERMENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Liberation theology which has been around for over half century across Africa and South America had finds its roots in socialistic economic policies and political agenda. It is not Orthodox Christianity.
SANCHEZ: You criticize Black Liberation Theology enthusiast for turning Jesus Christ into a political (INAUDIBLE) do you not?
BLACKWELL: No, let me tell you what I criticize and what I'm after here. You know, I believe that if one is running to be governor of a state that believes in capital punishment, then the voters of that state have a right to know if one religions doctrine prohibits him or her as governor from carrying out the law of the land.
I believe that if one is seeking to be the commander-in-chief of the United States, it seems to me that it's a legitimate question for people to ask, can your religion which let say demands pacifism allow you to carry out that responsibility.
SANCHEZ: OK, then let me stop you there. Let me stop you there.
BLACKWELL: No.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Hold on. I have to stop you there because you just suggested -- what you are suggesting...
BLACKWELL: Let me finish my thought.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
BLACKWELL: The issue is that if you are advancing a political platform that says your view is one of color blindness seeking justice and it's a society where (INAUDIBLE) from the many one if your objective, then how can you embrace a doctrine that believes in black nationalism and separatism.
SANCHEZ: What specifically is it about Barack Obama's acceptance of Black Liberation Theology that frightens you?
BLACKWELL: Well, it doesn't frighten me. I think there's a legitimate question that people should ask. I'm very comfortable in my Christianity, which is of a traditional...
SANCHEZ: But you are suggesting...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKWELL: I'm not suggesting anything.
SANCHEZ: You just did moments ago.
BLACKWELL: I'm not suggesting anything.
SANCHEZ: OK.
BLACKWELL: I indicated to your producers that before I would come on and talk about Black Liberation Theology, that you all should run what the church says Black Liberation Theology is.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question. Are you un-American or unpatriotic if you criticize the United States for its foreign policy now or in the past?
BLACKWELL: No, you're not Un-American, no. But I will tell you this. When you begin to say "God damn America," and that we brought on the -- justify the attack on September the 11th, I think that's over the top.
SANCHEZ: So this is really political for you. Your looking at this as a conservative American. You listen to this and you say, you know what? I just got caught into that.
BLACKWELL: What I'm saying is that I want to know if my commander-in-chief embraces the doctrine that is articulated on that website.
SANCHEZ: Ken Blackwell, we thank you, sir, for taking time to take us through this and talk, you know, openly about some of the questions that a lot of the people in this country are looking at from the left and from the right and some who are just conflicted about this. We thank you.
BLACKWELL: Thank you, sir.
SANCHEZ: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It is no doubt it's a strong conversation that people are having all over the country. And we again, let me just tell you, we're going to be letting you see the entire sermon by Reverend Wright in context.
We also want to bring you, the viewer, into this conversation as you get the information. We're bringing you tonight. Our question for you is Black Liberation Theology. With what you know, is it healing or is it hurting? Is it healing or is it hurtful?
Send your views to weekend@cnn.com. We really want to hear what you guys say about this those of you watching us tonight as we continue. We're going to read some of your responses later in this newscast.
Also, we brought you one view on the Reverend Wright and Black Liberation Theology. It's hard from the only view as you know. Next, Reverend Wright in his own words, unedited and uncut.
Also, Dwight Hopkins is going to be joining us. There he is. He speaks for the Chicago church where the controversial words were preached from the pulpit. He's there. His side of the story when we come back. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We've got a lot of news. It's a pack show. Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. As promise now, because so much has been made by those who say that Reverend Wright's comments have been taken out of context, we want you to hear what he said in context now, to be fair. Regardless of what position you're on, on this. What he said prior to and then after the soundbite that everyone has heard. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. JEREMIAH WRIGHT, TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST: Governments fail. The government in this text comprised of Caesar, Carrillous (ph), Pontius Pilate, the Roman government failed. The British government used to rule from east to west. The British government had a union jacket. She colonized Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria, Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad, and Hong Kong. Her navies rule the seven seas all the way down to the tip of Argentina in the fork lift, but the British government failed. The Russian government failed. The Japanese government failed. The German government failed.
And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to putting her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in interment prison camps.
When it came to putting the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters. Put them on auction blocks. Put them in cotton fields. Put them in inferior schools. Put them in substandard housing. Put them scientific experiments. Put them in the lower paying jobs. Put them outside the equal protection of the law. Kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education, and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law and then wants us to sing God Bless America. No, no, no. Not God Bless America. God Damn America! That's in the Bible, for killing innocent people. God Damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Fiery words. Joining us now is Dwight Hopkins. He's an ordained minister himself and a member in good standing at the Trinity United Church of Christ.
Mr. Hopkins, thank you for joing us, sir. Do you believe that by playing that larger soundbite, it puts in context what is the true ideology of your church?
DWIGHT HOPKINS, TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST: Well, I think it definitely is a step towards clarity by contextualizing the 30- second soundbites. Because what he says, if you listen closely, Reverend Wright says if she continues to play the role of God, if America continues to act as if she is God. And there as he says -- literally in the Bible, he's talking about particularly the Old Testament where Yahweh God condemns ancient Israel for trying to either turn away from God or trying to act like God.
SANCHEZ: Were you there when he made that comment?
HOPKINS: No, I was not there for that particular sermon.
SANCHEZ: When you first heard it as a member of the church, were you offended as an American?
HOPKINS: I was not offended as an American because I know that there is a specific structure to black sermons in America. That is to say, there's usually five or six moves.
The first move is to do a biblical interpretation. The second move is to apply the biblical interpretation to personal experience, personal healing and transformation. The third move is to find biblical interpretations to social structures and systems in foreign policy. And in the fourth move is to say, now that we've gone through this hell, now that we've gone through this darkness of the midnight hour, how do we reintegrate and reconciliation and love. And the final, the fifth part is to say, the doors of the church are opened, please enter.
And what we have in those 30 seconds...
SANCHEZ: Let me just stop you real quick. You're saying you understand it. Do you also understand people for not understanding it, for being offended when they hear those words?
HOPKINS: I think that as I've listened to people and I've talked to people and text messages people, I'm getting a better appreciation for that. SANCHEZ: Let me read you something. I'm looking at your website right now. I'm going to read it to the viewers at home as I read it as well. I've got it on my computer.
"We're a congregation which is unashamed of being black and unapologetically Christian. Our roots in the black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people and remain true to our native land. The mother continent, the cradle of civilization."
Some people would read that and think to themselves, it sounds like they are more committed to Africa than they are to the United States.
HOPKINS: I think if we read the whole webpage explanation of those points and I think the point is...
SANCHEZ: OK, what am I missing? You tell us, you tell the viewers.
HOPKINS: Yes. I think first of all we have to go back to the Bible. I want to refer back to Mr. Blackwell's lead in. The whole point about Black Liberation Theology is that it's a theology that arose out of a study of Jesus' words.
And there are two important passages in the Bible we have to look to. The first is the first public speech that Jesus ever makes on earth. It's found in Luke 4:18-19 and this passage is very important. You don't have to be a Christian. You just have to be a literate person to look at that passage in the New Testament.
SANCHEZ: But he seems to be saying, Mr. Blackwell, that you guys are just too political.
HOPKINS: Right. Well, that's what I'm...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: That you should stick to God and Jesus and your personal relationship with your savior and not be going on for the direction that seems to be, his word for it, collective. My interpretation of it, leftist or communist.
HOPKINS: Right. I think people called Jesus a socialist and a communist and a Marxist as well because in Luke 4:18, I hope the viewers are writing this down, whether you're atheist or Christian, and we'll see Jesus says, my purpose on earth, which I announce this day, is to feed the poor, give water to the thirsty, clothe those who are hungry, and visit those who're in jail. That's the primary purpose of Jesus.
I'm quoting the Bible here because I want to get back to Mr. Blackwell talked about traditional Christianity. And the second point is that there's only one passage in the Bible where Jesus says, these are the criteria to get into heaven and that's in Matthew: 25-31...
SANCHEZ: We've got 30 seconds left. You said you wanted to address Mr. Blackwell's comment. Here's your chance to do it.
HOPKINS: Right. And so Luke: 14 is one, Matthew 25 to 31. And the only criteria Jesus lays out is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to those who are homeless and visit me in prison.
SANCHEZ: So, he was a political activist and you defend your church for also being politically and socially active.
HOPKINS: I think if you speak truth to power, power will react.
SANCHEZ: Thank you, sir. Thanks so much for taking time to join us. Dwight Hopkins, Trinity United Church. Really a chance to hear both perspective, let's take it to our panel.
Ladies, who's right?
ALEXIS SCOTT, PUBLISHER, CEO, ATLANTA DAILY WORLD: The deacon or whoever that is from Trinity, he's correct.
SANCHEZ: Dwight Hopkins.
SCOTT: Dwight Hopkins, yes. The thing is, it's really not even about race. It's about oppression and power, and speaking to the power that's oppressing the people. And after all, the modern civil rights movement grew out of the church. Martin Luther King, Jr. All of the ministers who founded the Southern Christian Leadership....
SANCHEZ: Why is it so hard for a white American to listen to that argument, though, and hear hate speech that's anti-American, Alexis?
Go ahead, Martha.
MARTHA ZOLLER, HOST, THE MARTHA ZOLLER SHOW: Well, and I think -- well, in the more expanded clip that you gave, what I was thinking before that, for every example that he gave which was about a government failing, there was a people that rose up for freedom. So, there was a positive message in that that was missed, I think, by the Reverend. And I want to think that he had...
SANCHEZ: How many people have called your radio show, Martha, and said this guy is hateful; I can't stand what he said about...
ZOLLER: All of them.
SANCHEZ: All of them.
SCOTT: That's because it was played out of context. And the context is that you're speaking truth to power, you're challenging authority that has been oppressing a people and you're trying to get justice.
ZOLLER: But that's speaking in the past, though. And it's like -- it's almost giving no credit and even Barack Obama said that the other day. That Reverend Wright did not give sufficient credit to where we've come beyond the civil rights movement. It was as if he's stuck in time. Even Obama said that the other day.
SCOTT: But discrimination still exists even though -- and the effects of discrimination still exist. So, I think that's what people are still concerned about.
CYNTHIA GOOD, EDITOR, PINK MAGAZINE: The reality is that racism, sexism, discrimination happens to be alive and well today and maybe, you know, it's hard for some people to hear. But absolutely what a good thing to at least have this dialogue. Certainly the Reverend's comments were inflammatory. He's very passionate. He's very articulate. And he makes people think, do violence still exist?
SANCHEZ: Here's a political question. Do you think this is a winner for Barack Obama? This conversation? This situation?
GOOD: It will be interesting to see what happens. We can't say yes. In some cases, yes. In others, no.
SANCHEZ: Not with your callers, right, Martha?
ZOLLER: No. But I think what has to be said here is that, when we look at this kind of situation, I think he said the right thing in acknowledging Barack Obama about how white folks feel about this. Because you can always find a reason, black, white, or brown, you can find a reason to be put down.
And what I think Obama is trying to do and he's going to have to continue to do, is to say, hey, we're not there any more. I'm proof of the fact we're not there anymore.
GOOD: Right. And I also think he was uniquely suited to make the speech that he made to talk about the challenge of race in America and race relations.
SANCHEZ: And here's the question we want you at home to answer for us. We want to know what you think about this. And our question is really quite simple. The Black Liberation Theology, as you know it now, after hearing from Ken Blackwell, who's a critic, and the defender of the church, Dwight Hopkins there, do you think it's a healing ideology or a hurtful ideology?
Send your views to weekends@cnn.com. We really are anxious to hear what you think about this and we're going to read your responses later in this newscast.
Some breaking news now. Every once in a while we have to report things that we don' necessarily wish we had to. But it's a situation in this case.
We have just learned that four U.S. soldiers have been killed by a bomb blast in southern Baghdad. It happened just hours ago. The reason this is particularly salient, particularly news worthy is this, CNN can now confirm, officially raises the death toll in Iraq to 4,000. So, at this point, we are reporting that the death toll in Iraq, as far as U.S. servicemen are concerned, has just hit the 4,000 mark. We'll continue to get reaction on this. We're expecting to go to one of our correspondents for more information as we continue to get the breaking news on this. Once again, 4,000 is the number now in Iraq, almost difficult to conceive.
Next, we look at the other costs of our war effort. We'll bring it to you as well. The money. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. Five years into the war in Iraq and Americans are taking stock. We now know that Saddam Hussein have no weapons of mass destruction. We are all worried about where the economy is heading. That has become "Issue #1," so-called here on CNN as we follow it every day.
Some blame the war for that. But let's be fair. With the mortgage meltdown, rising gas prices, and so many people losing their jobs, is the Iraq war inextricably linked to the faltering U.S. dollar?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ(voice-over): Calling for an end to it. Marking the five-year anniversary of its beginning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five years is too long.
SANCHEZ: A majority of Americans now say they are war-weary. The results of a new CNN opinion research poll. Seven out of ten Americans now believe government spending on the war in Iraq is hurting the very people paying for it. Hard words to hear in military town like Columbus, Georgia, home to Fort Benning, one of the country's largest Army training bases. And many here believe what history supports.
PVT. EDGAR HERCILA, U.S. ARMY: Any kind of spending stimulates the economy, be it military or civilian spending.
SANCHEZ: Not necessarily, says Linda Bilmes of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.
LINDA BILMES, HARVARD'S KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVT: We actually know that if we look at this war in particular, it is especially non- stimulating to the economy because of the way that we have paid for this war.
First of all, we have borrowed all the money to finance the war so far. So what we have done is we have simply added $800 billion on to our national debt and we have borrowed, of course, much of that money from overseas for the first time since the revolutionary war.
SANCHEZ: According to Pentagon estimate, we're paying about $ 9.5 billion a month. The finance combat operations in Iraq. Yet in her new book, Bilmes says if you add in other factors like long-term care for war veterans and replacing military equipment, that figure is closer to 25 billion a month.
Not everyone agrees spending for Iraq is behind our current economic troubles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The war is not a significant cause of the current recession. It's negative for the economy but not a significant cause of the current recession.
SANCHEZ: Everyone agrees the price of gas is not helping. In 2003, the week we invaded Iraq, gas prices were hovering around $1.73 a gallon. Now, some are paying $4 a gallon.
BILMES: And when we look at what's happened on Wall Street, what we see is that countries like the Middle Eastern countries are actually buying large chunks of our banks of Citibank, Merrill Lynch, etc. with the money that they have received from us paying for this higher oil prices.
SANCHEZ: Another sign from Wall Street. Last week's $30 billion bailout of Bear Stearns engineered by the Federal Reserve in a move rarely seen since the Great Depression. A product of the mortgage mess which, as military supplies to a business owner Paul Voorhees points out, has nothing to do with the war in Iraq.
PAUL VOORHEES, BUSINESS OWNER: Well, I think that it's not just the war in Iraq. I think there's other things that's hurt the economy, especially the loans that they've made to people they shouldn't have made. People could borrow money at 120 percent. And now the house is not even worth what they paid for it. So, now they can't sell it for what they owe on it. People went in with nothing down. I think that really hurt us more than the war in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: So, you add that all up and what do you get? You get dire economic times. But what label do we slap on it as we dole out 50, 60, $70 to put gas in one of our cars? And these truck drivers are telling me the other day, they're paying $1,000 to fill up their rigs. $1,000. Is it a recession? Is it the next depression around the corner? What is it?
We need to know as Americans. But many of us don't know enough. This man does. Jeff Rosensweig is an associate professor of Emory University. He's also an expert on global economics. He's good enough to join us now.
Let's get some of the business out of the way. First, what we were just talking about in that report and that was the idea that Americans are convinced that the Iraq war has not been good for the economy. Are they right?
JEFF ROSENSWEIG, GLOBAL ECONOMIST: It hasn't been much either way. It has brought some spending into an economy, defense contractors and others, some people in the military and then the spending comes on through the system. It's nothing like World War II which got us out of the Great Depression. But on net, it isn't that important economically.
SANCHEZ: Those of us who look at it from the outside of an economist. Look at this and say, why in the world have we borrowed so much money? Which it does seem like we have. Are we more in debt now than we ever have been in the history of our country?
ROSENSWEIG: Oh, yes and everyday more. Our government will soon hit $10 trillion of gross debt.
SANCHEZ: why is that important to me? Why is that important to the guy sitting at home and watching this newscast right now?
ROSENSWEIG: Well, if the person at home is below age 40, they may never get social security. But I don't want to be one those alarmists. I think what we'll have to do is delay their retirement age, maybe as far as 75 for your kids, for instance, to be able to hold it all together. Depending on how old that person is, their Medicare benefits may have --
SANCHEZ: So we're owing countries like China and Brazil and India, countries that usually borrowed from us in the past and suddenly we're the ones in debt to these nations. There's something peculiar and it's ironic and sad about that.
ROSENSWEIG: Ironic is a great word. It goes against everything we teach which is usually rich, advanced countries lend to more poor or emerging countries so they can develop. They have large labor forces. Here, a rich advanced country, the richest on earth for the last 100 years, is borrowing from countries that are trying to develop. It's a complete reversal.
SANCHEZ: So where does this thing end up? You say possible recession but we're not on depression. Don't look for the "D" word down the way?
ROSENSWEIG: No. And the worst people can do is get too pessimistic, for instance, sell their stocks when they're way down. The thing to do is stay very steady. Let's say, you're building through the retirement. Keep some money in stocks, some money in fixed income, don't sell your house and go rent. It's not going to be that bad.
SANCHEZ: Don't do anything crazy.
ROSENSWEIG: And be opportunistic. You know, I think in five or ten years a lot of money will be made by those who didn't give up and were opportunistic and picked up maybe good properties in the right areas.
SANCHEZ: I like that. (INAUDIBLE) ghe glass is half full, right?
ROSENSWEIG: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Professor, thanks for coming in.
ROSENSWEIG: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: We certainly appreciate it.
Let's stay with the Iraq we can right now. The U.S. military has reached a tragic new milestone in Iraq. We are now reporting and CNN can confirm that that milestone of 4,000 dead servicemen has been reached. We're going to take you live to Iraq for a report from there in just a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. For the last couple of minutes, we learned that the U.S. has reached a grim milestone in Iraq. Let me give you some of the incidentals and some of the details that we're now getting about this.
Four U.S. soldiers have died. Ironically enough, it's another one of those roadside bombings that we've heard so much about. They died Sunday morning. Their vehicle was hit by an improvised explosive device, one of those IEDs we've heard so much about while they were patrolling a neighborhood in southern Baghdad.
Very similar to other reports that we've brought you before about this type of incident, except this time with the death of these four soldiers, it takes the death toll in Iraq of American servicemen and women to 4,000.
How significant is that as we prepare for a live report from our own correspondent, Michael Ware, who is standing by now for us in Iraq. We're going to have him ready to go in just a moment. Let's bring in our panel.
Ladies, your reaction to this.
ZOLLER: Well, two things first. Let's not forget and keep that in context that in World War II, we lost 400,000 men. Let's keep that in context. I've been to Iraq twice and covered the war twice. Once in '05 and once in '07. While this is an extremely important milestone, every life that was lost is an important milestone. And the soldiers, quite frankly, get a little angry, when I was over there when the 3,000-mile mark was met.
SANCHEZ: You wouldn't say it's just a number, though?
ZOLLER: No, I don't mean that. I mean that they're all important and that we need to be clear about all of that and not just have this big breaking news that it's 4,000 now.
SCOTT: There's no context for 4,000 lives are gone and thousands more have been maimed and injured. And who knows how many Iraqis have been killed. Who knows? I mean, it just points out once again how awful this war is.
A unilateral war that the United States attacked another country that had not attacked us and now we have given 4,000 lives of our soldiers who have volunteered and who are serving their country courageously and they are dead. And that's why this war needs to stop now and they need to bring the troops home.
SANCHEZ: Cynthia, your thoughts.
GOOD: Well, I mean, 4,000 troops killed in this war as of this evening. It's heartbreaking. That's a lot of people. I think, you know, on the heels of this looming economic crisis that we're experiencing here in this country, we need to take care of our financial institution, the housing market, the challenges that we face economically here at home rather than spending those dollars abroad, in my opinion.
SANCHEZ: Is it a difficult and bitter pill to swallow when you stand it up against the president originally saying that what we had sought to do had been achieved in Iraq and that since then, since the president said those words on the aircraft carrier, that we're still in it, that we're still struggling, and that so many more have died.
GOOD: And the administration really is not changing its opinion and it stands on this, even now in the wake of all these deaths.
SANCHEZ: Mission accomplished is the word I was looking for.
ZOLLER: They actually changed a year ago with the process by bringing Petraeus in who had actually come up through the process. But I will say that nobody expected it to last this long. I don't think anybody did. But if we want to make those lives matter, we have to finish this here.
SANCHEZ: Let me hold you ladies for just a moment. We've got Michael Ware now. He's standing by in Baghdad, ready to file this report as we get word of this milestone being reached.
Michael, perhaps you can share, since you've been there so long and you've been one of the few reporters who've really been on the inside of this from the very beginning. Is this more than just a number and, if so, why?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, I think it's undeniable that when the U.S. military struck this harrowing mark of 4,000 deaths, that does not go without some kind of symbolism. It comes just days after this war's fifth anniversary. When these four soldiers were killed, we're talking about perhaps only eight hours ago, here in the southern part of the capital Baghdad that really does say something.
You cannot help but take a moment to pause and to reflect. I'm sure soldiers and commanders throughout the nation will be taking that moment as well. 4,000 American deaths now in this war that continues to grind away where there seems to be so little insight that suggest it's coming to an end at any time soon.
That, perhaps, is the darkest reflection of all. 4,000 deaths and very little so far has changed. We're seeing success from the military's surge here in Baghdad, where they flooded the capital with 30,000 extra combat troops; where they've cut deals with their former enemies among the Sunni insurgents; where anti-American rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is now finding political accommodation from the U.S. military following the cleric's declaration of a ceasefire.
So while there are gains that have been made, there's still nothing to say that anything is getting any better in a real sense; that the fundamental building blocks of this war have been changed. And to now have the 4,000 American deaths really is a chilling moment.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you, Michael. Michael, I just want to interrupt you for a moment, because since we're talking of numbers, I want to ask you about something that rarely is talked about on network television in the United States. And that is, the 4,000 Americans is serious enough. But is it your understanding that the number of dead Iraqis would, what, double, triple? Or what would it do? What is that number? Do you know it?
WARE: Well, Rick, no one can give you a figure of the number of Iraqi souls that have been lost in the five years so far of this conflict. But it's exponentially greater than two or three or even ten times this terrible number of American casualties. We're talking about -- on conservative estimates between 80 thousand to 100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives.
And that's not to mention more than 4 million Iraqis are displaced from their homes. 2 million are lost here in Iraq wanting to return home. 2 million more plus are beyond this country's border and there seems little hope that any of them to return.
And the entire social fabric of this country has been torn asunder with a legacy of this war that it's now divided along sectarian lines, Sunni versus Shiite, when it never was before. Not even under Saddam. So the impact and the toll that this conflict has taken on these countries is almost immeasurable.
SANCHEZ: Michael, if you allow us for a minute. I want to bring Martha. Martha, you're shaking your head while you're listening to Michael's report. Is it because of a disagreement?
ZOLLER: I really did disagree on some of the issues. I've spent months as long as Michael has been in Iraq, but I've been there twice. I have been into some provincial areas and in many of the provincial governments they are functioning. Baghdad is continuing to be a problem but better. And I just think that's the story that's not being reported.
SANCHEZ: That it really is a success? Is that what you're saying?
ZOLLER: That the provincial governments are functioning the way they should in most...
SANCHEZ: Michael, how about that? That the provincial governments are now functioning much better and in many ways the way they should be functioning.
WARE: Well, there's a number of things we can say about that. Certainly on paper, there is a thin veneer of success in the fact that the provincial governments, well some of them, are operating in the way that they are. But let's look at it this way. Most of those provincial governments are operating in that way because they are so heavily supported by Iran.
We're talking about provincial governments in the south where there's very little Sunni-Shiite divide at all because it's a largely inclusively Shiite population, where they're ruled by political parties and paramilitary factions, either created in Iran during exile from Saddam or which have been created after this conflict began by Iran's Kurdish force or other political organizations within Iran.
The other provinces that are functioning so well here in Iraq are the Kurdish regions in the north, where they essentially have a parallel government to the central government in Iraq. They have their own territory, their own parliament, their own representatives, the defense and foreign affairs. So there's a duplication here. They've only recently been able to grit their teeth in the Kurdish north and fly the Iraqi national flag rather than a Kurdish flag.
So, yes, in one very limited sense they are operating but, come on, let's look at the reality. They are consolidating their power, weakening the central government. And Anbar province, Anbar province is in the control now of the former Sunni insurgency with whom they've cut a deal with the Americans. They are functioning but it's the Iraqi Islamic party which has ties to al Qaeda and which can barely deliver any kind of services or distribute budget that it has. So there is progress but let's look at it in the big picture in its true context.
SANCHEZ: Michael, we are out of time. Thanks so much for hustling to the camera and bring us this live report just as we got this latest information that the 4,000 milestone has in fact been reached.
Thank all of you so much. Ladies, thank you for your cooperation tonight. Great panel discussion.
We'll have more news here and continue to cover these stories, here on CNN, first thing in the morning.
And we'll see you again next weekend. I'm Rick Sanchez. Good night.
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