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Nancy Grace

Suitcase in Staten Island Pond May Contain Missing Mom`s Remains

Aired March 24, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. In the last hours, we have confirmed a suitcase fished out of a local pond leads to a stunning discovery, that oversized waterlogged suitcase stuffed with a human body, that body suspected to be a gorgeous young mom, 27-year-old Amy Giordano. How is that suitcase linked to an 11-month-old baby boy left abandoned? Tonight, police make the connection, and warrants go down for murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, a suitcase containing human remains could be 27-year-old New Jersey mom Amy Giordano, authorities honing in on a Staten Island pond after a suitcase full of skeletal remains is discovered. Giordano`s married boyfriend and her baby`s biological father now a prime suspect. Even without a body, authorities say they have evidence Giordano was killed. But this latest gruesome discovery at that pond could be definitive proof.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also tonight: Cult leader Charles Manson and the Manson family groupies hit the headlines again three decades after a murder spree that shocked the nation, including the murder of pregnant actress Sharon Tate. Tonight: Newly discovered graves in the desert just yards away from the Manson family hideout, California. It all comes down to forensics. And as we go to air, all parties gearing up for the painstaking dig for four specific bodies. And from the penitentiary tonight, not one word from the Manson family or Manson himself, still behind bars, as to who the four bodies are. They think they should still walk free.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Developments. Does Charles Manson have more potential victims? Did Manson and his self-described family murder more people than police ever suspected?

CHARLES MANSON: I broke no laws, not God`s law, nor man`s law.

I`ve had to survive in a world that you guys don`t even have any idea what`s going on!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some investigators believe hitchhikers and runaways who visited the Manson family and vanished were actually murdered. The Indio (ph) County sheriff says a decision is expected imminently on whether to dig for possibly more victims of Charles Manson and his cult of followers.

MANSON: Do you think I could survive all the things that you`ve put on me as a society, and everybody in this country, practically everybody in the world has tried to kill me every way they could, and I`m still here? Now, what does that tell you? Do I look like I`m guilty about something? Do I look like I have any remorse or fear about anything?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, it tells me you`re just too crazy to die. Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: How is a suitcase of bones suspected to be the remains of 27-year- old mom Amy Giordano connected to an 11-month-old toddler boy found wandering alone?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a tangled mystery that starts with a toddler boy being abandoned outside a Delaware hospital and ends with police calling its missing mother a murder victim. And tonight, a shocking discovery could solve the mystery, a suitcase containing human remains pulled out of a Staten Island pond and DNA tests now under way to determine if the remains are 27-year-old Amy Giordano.

She`s been missing since June, and according to police, the prime suspect is her married boyfriend, her baby`s biological dad. Surveillance video reveals little Michael, his mom and dad all shopping together at a New Jersey grocery store just two days before the toddler is abandoned and the last time anyone sees Amy Giordano. Shortly after, Rosario DiGirolamo takes off on a flight to Italy, ditching his baby and his car on Staten Island.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That oversized, waterlogged suitcase containing bones and remains. Tonight, even more bones being fished out of the pond that apparently made their way outside of the suitcase. But how is that connected to an 11-month-old toddler boy found wandering all alone?

Let`s go straight out to the scene, Rupa Mikkilineni joining us where the remains are being fished out. Rupa, what happened?

RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, I`m here in Staten Island near the outer bridge, actually, where New Jersey is connected with Staten Island. I`m in front of the pond where a suitcase full of bones was found yesterday. Police were here all day yesterday searching based on a tip. And after finding the suitcase yesterday, then today divers went into the water and found more bones. So tomorrow, I`m told, that police will continue to send divers in and will be looking for additional remains. Now, they do believe...

GRACE: Joining us there -- sorry for the delay, Rupa. Joining us there at the scene where the body has been found -- well, the remains -- stuffed inside an oversized, now waterlogged suitcase, Rupa Mikkilineni. Rupa, explain to me the condition of the water because it`s my understanding from this end of the camera that some of the bones have actually made their way out of the suitcase. Is the water deep? Is it murky? What is the temperature? How are they diving? Are they diving in full head gear to protect themselves from the cold water? Explain to me what`s happening.

MIKKILINENI: Here`s what we know. The police were led to a certain area within this pond, and so they focused their search on this area due to some tips in their investigation. This area that they searched is only three to four feet deep, Nancy, so not very deep at all, really. This area is also, though, approximately 30 yards from the shore. So it wasn`t just close to the shore, as you can imagine. And they will be continuing -- as I mentioned, they will continue to dive tomorrow. They are looking for additional remains.

GRACE: You know, Rupa, you`re telling me that the suitcase was kind of out near the center, not close to the shore. Would it be possible to actually throw the suitcase off the bridge? Is that how authorities are assuming it got so far out into the pond?

MIKKILINENI: They`re not sure, Nancy, and they`re not speculating on this, either. I don`t -- from what I can tell, in this area, the bridge is not so close -- this pond is close to the bridge, but there is a big distance between the bridge to actually -- and this pond is small. To give you a sense of the area, we`re talking about a park area that`s about 260 acres, so it`s a huge park. But the actual area where the pond is located is just a strip. It`s perhaps a mile long. It`s in a wooded area. And it`s between a hotel, West Shore Lodge, and another bridge area.

And so it would not be possible. The bridge doesn`t actually overlook the pond, so that`s not likely. But 30 yards from the shore, as you mentioned -- one could speculate that somebody had to actually swim out there 30 yards to get that suitcase there.

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing to me, if the water is only as deep as possibly four or five feet, why nobody has found this suitcase up until now, Rupa.

MIKKILINENI: Well, I think part of the problem -- and this is what police are saying -- is that they did a tremendous investigation. As you know, Amy Giordano went missing last June, and they have just been -- they`ve been speaking to people. They`ve been investigating this.

And really, the clincher here is John Russo. This is the accomplice, or I should say, actually, associate, known associate of Amy Giordano`s lover, who has now been arrested and is a suspect in her murder. Now, we`re thinking that this tip -- you know, the help from John Russo actually allowed police to really focus and target this area.

GRACE: OK. Because it`s such an isolated area, as Rupa Mikkilineni is telling us, you`d basically have to know to go there in order to abandon something there or discover something there.

Let`s give the big picture, and I want to find out and make it very clear. Let`s go out to Terry Sheridan, joining us from 1010 WINS. Terry, give me the back story. I want to find out how long Amy Giordano has been missing, a 27-year-old mom, and how this is connecting up to a little boy. But first of all, the disappearance of Amy Giordano. Explain, Terry Sheridan.

TERRY SHERIDAN, 1010 WINS: Well, this all started happening June 9, and that`s when a baby was found in the parking lot of a Delaware hospital. Now, two days before, that was the last time anyone saw Amy alive, and that was on that video that you just showed. Now, a day later, the last time anyone had any contact with her -- we`re now talking June 8 -- that was when she spoke to a son from another marriage, a 6-year-old boy who was living with her ex-husband in New York. So that`s the last time anyone saw or heard from Amy Giordano.

Now, almost immediately after that, police in Delaware or southern New Jersey put a picture of the boy -- originally, he was identified as John Vincent. There was a note with him. The note said, Please, we can`t care for the boy anymore. Someone take care of him. So after that, that`s when they put the picture up.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest, Corporal Jeff Whitmarsh from the Delaware State Police. He has been working diligently on the abandonment of this little 11-month-old toddler boy. Corporal, welcome. Break it all down and put it back together for me. The little boy left wandering alone -- tell me how he was discovered and what has become of him.

CPL. JEFF WHITMARSH, DELAWARE STATE POLICE: Well, he was originally discovered, Nancy, by a hospital worker who was coming in to work that day. She was walking through the parking lot, looks down and sees sitting in the middle of a parking space all by himself, this 11-year-old little boy. And she had the...

GRACE: Eleven-month-old.

WHITMARSH: I`m sorry, 11-month-old little boy. And she had the concern, obviously, to take care of the boy, take him into the hospital and get him in front of a doctor to make sure that he was OK. She looked around. Hospital security came in and they looked around, and they could not find a parent anywhere. And then, obviously, we were called in, as well, to look into it, to see if we could find the parents and see who they were.

GRACE: And explain to me again, Corporal, how the baby boy, the 11- month-old -- and you know, Corporal, my twins are now -- they`re almost 5 months, and I cannot imagine leaving one of them sitting out in a parking lot. They are totally defenseless. They cannot take care of themselves. Nothing. Nothing at all.

Now, go back through that with me, as well.

WHITMARSH: Well, Nancy, you know, at the time this all was going on, my daughter was about the same age as baby Michael, so this kind of hit close to home for me and a lot of us who were working that case and handling either the investigation side or the media side of it. We all had children about the same age, so it was very disturbing for us.

We knew that the child had some medical issues. We were trying to look into that. And we just flooded the media market, if you will, with pictures of the child, pictures of the note that was left with the child. And we were quite disturbed at the end of it, when we found that Rosario had actually put a false name on this note that he shoved in the baby`s diaper and just left him the way that he did in this parking lot, and as you had mentioned, defenseless, to kind of fend for himself.

And having seen the child and having again seen multiple pictures of him, trying to find out who he was initially, it was quite disturbing and very upsetting, again, for most of us who were in touch with this case and working through it.

GRACE: So the baby`s out in a parking lot with a note shoved in his diaper?

WHITMARSH: That`s correct.

GRACE: And the note said what?

WHITMARSH: The note said, Please help my baby, John Vincent -- and again, it was a false name. And the note stated that the person who wrote the note had lost her insurance, lost their job, and then, God have mercy on my soul, is the way the note had ended, so -- and for us initially, we didn`t know who wrote it, you know? Could have been the mother.

So we were trying to reach out to Mom, saying, Look, we have some resources for you. Come forward. Let us help you. And even on the date that we found out who she was, I recall quite vividly our colonel of the state police had pled specifically to Amy, If you`re out there, come forward, let us help you, let us reunite you with your child. There are other options here, you know, other than abandonment.

GRACE: And where was this exactly?

WHITMARSH: This was at the Christiana Hospital in Newark, Delaware, is where the abandonment took place.

GRACE: OK. So you flood the media with the baby`s picture. And how do you connect the baby up to the torso in the suitcase?

WHITMARSH: Well, it all started for us when a business owner in Hightstown, New Jersey, saw the picture of the baby on television, notified authorities there. They in turn called us. So we started to put the pieces back together. We found out that Rosario had actually rented out an apartment in Hightstown. So using some court records -- or some cell phone records that we had gotten through the courts, we found out that his cell phone had been pinging off of a tower adjacent to Christiana Hospital in Delaware.

Now, when we went to track him down, Nancy, we found out that he wasn`t in New Jersey, he was on a plane flying to Italy. So I think, you know, we just started to put the pieces together and say, This is our guy. He`s got to be responsible for the abandonment of this child.

Initially, police officers in Hightstown went back to Amy`s apartment. When they get in there, they see that her purse is there, her identification, some of the baby`s things. And obviously, again, as a parent -- and I`m sure you, as a mother, would know -- if you`re leaving the house with your child, you`re not leaving diapers behind. You`re not leaving medication behind, specifically if you`re going to be gone for good.

GRACE: You know, I`m just sick. You know, on June 7, Corporal, video surveillance from a Shop-Rite shows Amy, who we believe is the body in the suitcase, Rosario, as you call him, DiGirolamo, and the baby buying groceries, June 7. June 9, the baby is found abandoned, and at that juncture, when you finally find the biological father, he`s on his way to Italy.

So that just leads me to believe -- and I want to go out to Pat Brown joining us, criminal profiler and author. That leads me to believe that this guy kills the mom -- of course, you`re presumed innocent until proven guilty -- kills the mom, dumps her torso in the suitcase, along with various parts of her body, dumps the baby in a parking lot and hops a plane to Italy, where he immediately, Pat Brown, checks himself into a mental ward. Thoughts?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Yes. Well, exactly. I mean, you can see this whole thing playing out. He went to her apartment. Something went wrong. This was not premeditated. He killed her, most likely. He`s not guilty yet, but looks like he might have killed her there because...

GRACE: And there`s the Shop-Rite video right there, Pat.

BROWN: Right. One of the reasons you end up in a suitcase is because when you kill somebody in an apartment, how do you get their body out of there? It`s not like she`s on the ground floor in a private home, where you can just take her to the car and then go dump her someplace. She`s way up there, and you`ve got to get through the security cameras and pass the people at the desk or go down the elevator. So suitcases are very useful for that.

My guess is he then put her in a suitcase. But then he has no mom to take care of the kid. He realizes he`s in trouble. He dumps the kid, runs from the country, hopes that he can get his insanity plea at some point. He just tries to take care of the little short ends of this problem and sees what plays out. He obviously did a pretty bad job of it.

GRACE: Well, we can clearly see a mental defect defense lining up here.

BROWN: Oh, yes.

GRACE: But the case would have never been broken if it weren`t for a guy named Russo. I want to go to his attorney, attorney for John Russo joining us tonight, George Vomvolakis. Sir, thank you for being with us. Your client actually led police to the remains in the suitcase, yes, no.

GEORGE VOMVOLAKIS, ATTORNEY FOR SUSPECT JOHN RUSSO: I can neither confirm nor deny that, Nancy. I`m sorry.

GRACE: OK.

VOMVOLAKIS: What I can tell you is that John Russo has been cooperating with the police since June. Immediately when the police determined that DiGirolamo was a suspect, they found out that John Russo was at the time his best friend. He was a person of interest. They spoke to him repeatedly over the course of nine months. Eventually, last week, they charged him with tampering with evidence, which caused him to hire an attorney. That`s where I came in. And we brought him in and he gave information that coupled with the information they already had.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was really shocking when I heard that it might be her boyfriend, the one that killed her and stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t hear about this in Hightstown. You don`t. You know, nothing like this has really happened. And basically, it just -- it`s a shock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators looking for a missing New Jersey woman found some bones that may have been hers. They were discovered near a pond on Staten Island yesterday. And police are doing DNA tests. Amy Giordano disappeared last summer. Her 11-month-old son was found abandoned in a parking lot. Two men are charged in the case. One of them had an affair with Giordano.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Police are fishing out a waterlogged and oversized suitcase from a local pond. It turns out to be full of a torso. There are other bones, we believe, in the murky waters surrounding where the suitcase was. Does it answer the riddle of where was 27-year-old mom Amy Giordano, her 11-month-old toddler boy found sitting alone out in a public parking lot, a note shoved down his diapers, the biological father flown to Italy?

Out to the lines. Martha in Tennessee. Hi, Martha.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show, and I pray for you and your twins every day.

GRACE: Thank you. They`re almost to the 5-month mark. And I`m very grateful for that. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we love them. What I`d like to know is how far did she live from Christiana in Delaware?

GRACE: How far what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she live? The baby was found in Delaware?

GRACE: OK, got your question, Martha in Tennessee. First of all, Rosie, let`s throw up the map and take a look at it. And out to Terry Sheridan with 1010 WINS. How far away is the dumping site, this pond, from where she lived, Terry?

SHERIDAN: Oh, I would say probably about maybe 30 to 40 miles. Where the dumping site was is right over the New York border into Staten Island.

GRACE: And how close to the ocean is it?

SHERIDAN: It`s not too close to the ocean. It`s actually closer to Arthur Kill (ph). But it`s right on -- I mean, you could literally hit and spit the bridge.

GRACE: To Rich in Washington. Hi, Rich.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I guess I have more of a comment. The question was raised about how did the suitcase get out into the middle of the pond.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m guessing, you know, in the last nine, ten months that she`s been missing, the level of the pond has probably changed multiple times, and it could have floated out there.

GRACE: You know, you`re absolutely correct. What about the weather conditions, Corporal Whitmarsh?

WHITMARSH: About the what, Nancy?

GRACE: The weather, I mean the up and down of the water level of that pond.

WHITMARSH: I`m not too familiar with the pond in New York, Nancy. I`m down here in the first state in Delaware, so...

GRACE: Yes. You know what? You`re right. I`ll go right back to Rupa Mikkilineni after this break. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 27-year-old mother of two hasn`t been seen since June 7th while grocery shopping with her baby and boyfriend Rosario DiGirolamo. Two days later, Amy`s son, Michael, is found abandoned in a hospital parking lot. The cell phone tower pings her boyfriend just yards away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police from New Jersey and New York, they pulled a suitcase in a plastic bag out of a pond, in the Clay Pit Pond area down at the tip of Staten Island. They found skeletal remains. Pretty much from the neck down to the pelvis was bones. You couldn`t say it was a body. It was bones that they found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Rupa Mikkilineni. There has been a freeze. The water has gone up and down. What took so long for the luggage to be discovered?

MIKKILINENI: Well, I think what`s happening here is you had divers that literally went into the water yesterday, and they focused on this area yesterday. My understanding...

GRACE: OK. OK. Very quickly...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Sorry to cut you off, Rupa. I`ve got to go straight out to Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified pathologist joining us from Denver. Dr. Arnall, explain to me how, at this juncture, they`re able to identify this as being Ms. Giordano?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, they`re going to look for teeth, if there`s a head present. They can compare pre-mortem dental X-rays to a dental exam they do on a head or teeth, if they`re present. Also, they`re going to be looking for DNA. There are cells in the bone and cells in teeth. Even though the body is decomposed, the bone and teeth will preserve that DNA. They can use that for identification. Last but not least, they`re going to look at her medical records. If she has surgical implants, they`ll use those surgical implants to identify the body.

GRACE: And as far as the little toddler boy goes, tonight he`s being put up for adoption.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In addition to arresting Amy Giordano`s boyfriend, they charged another man, 43-year-old John Russo Jr. of Staten Island, with tampering of evidence. Now I spoke to Russo`s lawyer last night, and he says that they`ve been cooperating with the authorities, and it was information that Russo gave them, in addition to their own investigation, that led them to the pond.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we take you out to four new, repeat, new bodies discovered out in the California desert, possibly the work of Charles Manson and his so-called family, I want to finish up. We`re getting a flood of phone calls about this toddler boy left abandoned.

First of all, I`m going to go to George Vomvolakis, attorney for John Russo, who gave the tip that leads to the dead body stuffed in a suitcase. Sir, you just told me with a straight face you cannot confirm or deny that your client John Russo, age 43, gave a tip leading to the suitcase. But I am now reading from the "Newark Star-Ledger" where you, sir, state that he leads them to the body. He helped lead New Jersey authorities to the Staten Island pond yesterday. Yes or no?

VOMVOLAKIS: No, that`s a misquote, Nancy. What I told the "Star- Ledger," as I`ve told every reporter, is that my client gave them information, and that coupled with the information that they already had -- they had investigated this for nine months. He gave them a piece of the puzzle, and based on that piece of information, they put two and two together and realized.

GRACE: What piece of the puzzle was it?

VOMVOLAKIS: I`m sorry?

GRACE: What piece of the puzzle was it?

VOMVOLAKIS: That`s something I can`t -- cannot comment on.

GRACE: So more -- OK. Thank you.

Out to the lines, Cynthia in Ohio. Hi, Cynthia.

CYNTHIA, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

CYNTHIA: My question, I was very shocked when you said that the baby was going to be adopted. Where are the family members?

GRACE: You know, my sentiments exactly. My first question is what about the grandparents? What about the sisters and the brothers and the aunts and the uncles? Don`t they want this baby? Look at him, Cynthia. Look. Who wouldn`t want to wake up to this little angel every morning? I don`t understand it.

I want to go back out to Terry Sheridan.

Terry, in a nutshell, what`s happening with the little toddler?

SHERIDAN: Well, the last I heard about the little toddler is that he is in foster care down in Delaware. That was the last that I heard about him.

GRACE: I want to go then to Corporal Jeff Whitmarsh, who has been instrumental in helping pieces -- put the pieces of this puzzle together. What`s to become of the little baby?

CPL. JEFF WHITMARSH, DEL. STATE POLICE PIO ON CHILD ABANDONMENT CASE: Well, Nancy, if Amy Giordano were still alive, she would have -- she had up until last week to come forward. The authorities then here in Delaware for the Division of Family Services would have been able to work with her then to try to return baby Michael back.

GRACE: Well, she`s dead, so what now?

WHITMARSH: Right. Well, now the child, as was just mentioned, is in foster care. And they`ll be working down here to place him with a loving and caring family. As far as her extended family goes, she really has none. From what I understand from the investigators, she was really estranged from her family for quite some time, so there really is no one to look back to, to place this child with. And that effort had been made down here.

GRACE: Question, what about his family, corporal? I mean they don`t want the baby?

WHITMARSH: Well, I mean, this whole relationship was shrouded in secrecy from the very beginning. No one else knew about this other relationship he flew with Amy Giordano. I mean he had a home. He had a job. He had another -- he had a wife with a child. So he was living two totally separate lives. And I think that, you know, for the most part, just put yourself in their shoes. This all comes as a complete shock, and I`m not sure.

GRACE: You know, corporal, the reality is that child has a baby brother, albeit a half brother, it is a brother. And he`s going to grow up one day and find out his brother was allowed to be put into foster care and put up for adoption while he had blood relatives that could take him in? Inexcusable.

Dr. Robi Ludwig, what is this going to do -- just take this just out of the blue with a half sibling. When the sibling grows up and finds out his family allowed his brother to be put in foster care?

LUDWIG: Well, I`m sure it`s going to raise a lot of questions like who is my family? You know? He grew up having one set of parents and really not knowing them at all, at least his father. So I think it`s going to raise a lot of questions and feelings of betrayal, and there`s going to be a lot of sadness and a sense of loss really.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, out of New York, Peter Schaffer, defense attorney, the Atlanta jurisdiction, a family law expert, Penny Douglas Furr.

Penny, what do you believe is going to happen?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, there`s a lot of extended family that may very well want this child. It`s a very sad situation. I understand that Miss Giordano was an adopted child by an orthodox Jewish family, and then she went on to other boyfriends and moved forward, but the grandparents are very well to do in Brooklyn, and they may very well want this child. So I wouldn`t go forward with foster family quite yet.

GRACE: Well, you know what, it`s now -- the fish or cut bait. They`ve either got to come forward and take the child or let him go.

Out to you, Peter Schaffer. What do you predict?

PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they haven`t even identified this torso yet as being the victim. They -- you`ve got this guy convicted in jail. He`s charged with a crime.

GRACE: I don`t believe I asked you about that. I asked you about the baby.

SCHAFFER: Well, I`m saying that the father.

GRACE: As much as you want.

SCHAFFER: The father could get out.

GRACE: I mean that`s a little bit of a broken record, Schaffer, the presumed innocent thing?

SCHAFFER: Exactly.

GRACE: We all know that. OK? We`ve all practiced.

SCHAFFER: OK.

GRACE: .about 30 years each, so we get it. I`m talking about the baby right now.

SCHAFFER: Well, if nobody comes forward, they`ll terminate the parental rights of the father, Mr. -- the defendant in this case, and the child will go out to foster care. I agree with you, it`s unfortunate, but we don`t know that he`s going to get convicted. I mean everybody.

GRACE: You know what?

SCHAFFER: Everybody that`s ever been found not guilty has been charged like this guy. So let`s not jump to conclusions yet.

GRACE: Yes, well, I appreciate that. I was asking you about the possibilities pertaining to the 11-month-old child. We`ll have you back on again once a positive I.D. is made of the torso.

I`m going to take you out to California right now and a disturbing and stunning discovery. We thought the Charles Manson story is over. It`s not. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Searchers say new evidence points to more potential victims of deranged killer Charles Manson. The clock is ticking on a decision by investigators on whether to dig at Barker Ranch, the infamous hideout of Manson and his cult of followers, the same area investigators first searched for victims more than 30 years ago. Could there be more possible victims of Charles Manson and his followers? Searchers waiting for the go ahead from the Inyo County sheriff to dig. If bodies are found, will the Manson family face new murder charges?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Four bodies believed to be buried there in the desert near the Manson family ranch.

To Lara Kirkner with the "Mammoth Times." What`s the latest? When is the dig starting?

LARA KIRKNER, STAFF WRITER, MAMMOTH TIMES: Well, Nancy, the latest development is that these graves have been sought after since 1974, when local former Inyo County detectives was told by his boss to go out and look for human remains at the Barker Ranch.

GRACE: To Sergeant Paul Dostie -- he searched the ranch with cadaver dogs. When do you believe the dig will start, sergeant?

SGT. PAUL DOSTIE, MAMMOTH LAKES POLICE DEPT. SEARCHED MANSON RANCH WITH CADAVER DOGS: You know, I can`t tell you. That`s really up to the Inyo County Sheriff`s Office. There`s a lot of issues. It is a national park. Even though it may not look like Yosemite, the same rules apply.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES MANSON, CONVICTED KILLER: I`m everywhere, and I`m out and in, and I`m all around, down the San Diego zoo, and I`m riding a motorcycle, and I`m your children, and I`m your trees, and I`m your clouds. And I`m crazy. That`s a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MANSON: One of the reasons I don`t want out is because I am very mad, and I don`t know whether I could control myself. Now you see it? So rather than go out and kill a whole bunch of people, I`ll just kickback and try to let it get out of my brain and let it calm down. And maybe we can get some peace going with it, you see. But I`m so mad, you wouldn`t believe how mad I am.

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GRACE: Right now all parties involved are waiting a dig to begin near the Manson family ranch now. Authorities are revealing they believe four to five more bodies buried there near the Manson family hideout. And all the while, all these years when the family, along with Manson, come up for parole, never once have they mentioned the possibility there were more dead bodies.

Joining me tonight are two very special guests. First of all, joining us is the sister of pregnant actress Sharon Tate, Debra Tate is with us. And before I question her, let me advise you that every time these people come up for parole, she makes her voice heard. She`s not forgotten her sister or her death.

Miss Tate, it`s a pleasure to have you with us tonight.

DEBRA TATE, SISTER OF MURDERED ACTRESS SHARON TATE: Thank you.

GRACE: When do you believe, your sources, what do they tell you? When is the dig going to start for four to five more bodies?

TATE: I haven`t heard yet.

GRACE: How do.

TATE: We have to wait for Inyo County to come forth and say when it will be.

GRACE: Joining me also tonight, Vincent Bugliosi, who actually prosecuted Charles Manson, he later wrote "Helter Skelter, The True Story of the Manson Murders."

Vincent, it`s wonderful to have you back on the air. Thank you for being with us. What do you make of the possibility of five more dead bodies?

VINCENT BUGLIOSI, AUTHOR OF "HELTER SKELTER": Well, it wouldn`t surprise me, Nancy. About a year ago I heard from some trooper in the Inyo County area, and he said that he had read in "Helter Skelter" where I said that the Manson family claimed to have, quote, "offed," he committed 35 murders. That`s the numbers they`ve always used. And many of the bodies were out in the desert, and the bodies will never be found. And there`s a map in "Helter Skelter" taking people to that particular area if they want to go there. It`s very remote, isolated, almost inaccessible. And he followed that map and he found Barker Ranch. I`ve been to the ranch.

And he`s the one that carried the ball from there. He got dogs involved. He brought dogs up there and some forensic people from around the country. It`s a little premature, Nancy, though, because they have found chemicals apparently indicative of decomposed bodies, but at this point no bodies have been found. But if they are, then obviously -- sequentially the first step would be to determine forensically if possible if the person in his or her grave was murdered. If so, then I guess the next step -- and you know these things -- there have to be an effort to try to determine the identity of the person and if that person had any contact with the Manson family around the time of his or her disappearance.

I mean if this person disappeared before the Manson family was up there -- they went there after the (INAUDIBLE) Tate/La Bianca murders to hide out. Now if the body -- or if the person up there disappeared before that time or after that time, that would exclude the Manson family. And finally if there`s any evidence that one or more members of the family was responsible, then the prosecutor would have to convene a grand jury and take testimony from all Manson family members still alive and any one else who.

GRACE: Well, Vincent, there has been.

BUGLIOSI: .might have knowledge.

GRACE: .quite a bone of contention. With me is Sharon Tate`s sister Debra.

BUGLIOSI: Right.

GRACE: .who appears at every parole hearing to fight parole of the Manson family.

BUGLIOSI: Right. Yes.

GRACE: And also with me, Vincent Bugliosi, who prosecuted Manson.

Vincent, there`s been a bone of contention, I say, that if it is linked up to the Manson family, which I`m sure it will be, that they can seek the death penalty. There was no statute of limitations on murder.

BUGLIOSI: Right.

GRACE: And there was a death penalty in California then. It was out for a period of years. Now it`s back. But these murders would have been committed while the death penalty was in place in California.

BUGLIOSI: Yes. The big problem here, Nancy, is that under article 1, section 10 of the U.S. constitution, states, as you know, are forbidden to pass any, quote, "expost facto law," unquote. That constitutional prohibition has almost exclusively been applied to a law retroactively making criminal an act that wasn`t criminal at the time of its commission.

Now here, we`re not talking about a new crime, as it were. In `72, you know about Furman versus Georgia. You come from Georgia. Furman versus Georgia didn`t rule that murder wasn`t a crime and made the ruling retroactive. They simply ruled that the procedure for implementing the death penalty was.

GRACE: Exactly.

BUGLIOSI: .constitutionally defective. So I think a good argument could be made for the proposition that a prosecution today for a murder that happened before Furman, where the court cures the defect, is not violative of article 1, section 10, and would be constitutional, but I don`t believe any case has come before the court where they ruled on that issue.

GRACE: Has tested it in this capacity.

BUGLIOSI: But I do want to add -- I do want to add one point. I asked the jury, because some people have forgotten about this, Manson got the death penalty back in `71.

GRACE: Right.

BUGLIOSI: And he deserved this. I told a jury if this was not a proper case for the imposition of death penalty, no case ever would be. So he got the death penalty back then, but then the next year, Furman versus Georgia set aside the death penalty. Everyone on death row, Manson and about 600 people, all of the death penalty sentences were irreversibly reduced from death down to life.

So what could happen here, Nancy, is that if a body or bodies are found up there and they were murdered and they`re connected to Manson, he will finally get the death penalty perhaps by a jury that he should have gotten way back in 1972, and Debra Tate and the other survivors or the victims who have been having nightmares for the rest of their lives from what happened to their loved ones would finally get some closure here.

GRACE: Right.

To Debra Tate, Sharon Tate`s sister. Debra, you go to these parole hearings every single year every time they come up. You never forget your sister. But now Manson won`t come if he knows you`re going to be there. Why?

TATE: Your guess is as good as mine, Nancy. I would imagine that it`s because he is not used to having to face a family member.

GRACE: You know, Debra, the fact that there is a likelihood that there may be five more bodies there, what are those -- what will those families go through when they finally discover where their loved one has been al these years?

TATE: I can only imagine what kind of a hell that has to be? The only thing that I can -- that drives me is the fact that I believe that there are people whose children walked out the front door one morning and never came back. I would imagine that any kind of closure would bring with it both pain and solace just to know where they are and take them home to family members.

GRACE: Debra, do you believe Manson will ever be paroled?

TATE: I do not believe that Charles Manson wants to be paroled. However, I do believe that the rest of his clan is far more cunning than himself and that they have a very good possibility of being paroled.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was raised to be a decent human being. I`ve turned into a monster, and I have spent these years going back to a decent human being, and I just don`t know what else to say.

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GRACE: Possibly five more bodies linked to the Manson family and Charles Manson himself, all behind bars.

Back to Debra Tate, Sharon Tate`s sister. Her pregnant sister died at the hands of Manson family members. Debra, all these years when they come up for parole, does anybody ever mention there`s some more bodies buried out there? Do they hope we weren`t going to find them?

TATE: Never do they ever mention anything about it. As a matter of fact, they refuse to discuss any of the terms of the original case whatsoever.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, Doctor, is there any way at this juncture we`ll be able to determine the cause of death?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, if the bodies are mummified, you may still find gunshot wounds and stab wounds in the mummified flesh. If those gunshot wounds or stab wounds went through the bone, there`s going to be bone holes or cuts.

GRACE: OK.

ARNALL: .that the researchers will find.

GRACE: And to Penny Douglas-Furr, how can they possibly expect lenient treatment after all these years never mentioning dead bodies still being buried in the desert?

DOUGLAS-FURR: Nancy, it`s my understanding that the biggest part of parole is accepting responsibility for what you`ve done. If I were a member of the Manson family, and there are other bodies out there, I would be the first person to come forward and say that they`re there and try to give testimony to the government in order to try and get parole, because it`s ridiculous not go -- not come forward with that information.

GRACE: Peter Schaffer, agree or disagree?

SCHAFFER: Agree, but I also don`t think the state of California will ever let Manson or any of these people out.

GRACE: Well, you know, I would think that too, but you never know in that jurisdiction.

Let`s stop. Let`s just stop and remember Army Sergeant First Class John Tobiason, 42, Bloomington, Minnesota, killed, Iraq. Volunteered for an extended tour, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Loved God, country, fishing. Favorite rock band KISS. Dreamed of retiring to a cabin in Minnesota. Leaves behind mom Virginia, sister Nancy, brother James.

John Tobiason, American hero.

Thank you for inviting us into your homes tonight. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:0 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

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