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Nancy Grace
Child Dies When Parents Choose Prayer Over the ER
Aired March 26, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: They sat by and prayed while their little girl suffered and died. Though they`re not attached to any specific religion and claim they`re not, quote, "crazy religious people" and have nothing against doctors, they sat by for a solid month while the child wasted away, went into a coma and finally died, untreated from a simple and curable malady, type I diabetes. Is this extreme child abuse shrouded in religion? Tonight: Heartwrenching 9/11 calls as relatives begging for medical help.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wisconsin police say her parents chose prayer over medical treatment, and now she`s dead. Eleven-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann had a treatable form of diabetes. And according to the medical examiner, she suffered from nausea, vomiting, fatigue and other symptoms for an entire month, and not once did her parents take her to the ER. Kara parents said they never expected their daughter to die while they prayed for a full recovery.
911 OPERATOR: Sheriff`s (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister-in-law is -- her daughter is severely, severely sick and we believe now she (INAUDIBLE) her daughter is in a coma. And she`s very religious, so she`s refusing to take her to the hospital. So I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, bombshell developments in the cold-blooded shootings of 22-year-old UNC coed Eve Carson and Duke grad student Mahato. Stunning details emerge on a probation department so derelict in duty regarding the two murder suspects, each with huge rap sheets, by the way, the probation officer actually went back into the records after the murders to falsify documents, all in an effort to cover up a long history of plain old dropping the ball. And to top it all off, we learn tonight the probation officer herself has a criminal record. And they wonder what went wrong?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder suspect Lawrence Lovette, Jr., was supposed to have monthly contact with his probation offer, but that never happened. Records show Lovette`s probation officer never met with him in person. The only contact the officer had with Lovette was when Lovette called the probation officer. Then on the day Lovette was charged with murder, his probation officer added additional accounts of missed meetings and at least two phone calls to Lovette. But by then, it was too late. Two beloved college students were dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. No specific religious affiliation made them do it, they just sat by and watched their little girl die. But now they claim freedom of religion as a defense. But there was nobody there to defend their little girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wisconsin EMTs rush a little 11-year-old girl to the ER after she stops breathing, the girl slowly deteriorating from untreated form of diabetes. Why? Her parents refused to take her to the hospital for care. Instead her mommy and daddy had been praying for their daughter to get will. But tonight: Will her parents face criminal charges?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Marathon County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?
911 OPERATOR: Marathon County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 9807 Maplewood.
911 OPERATOR: Maplewood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t hear you.
911 OPERATOR: We have an ambulance, the fire department and an officer responding to your place. Do you need something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A girl is not breathing.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know how to do CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) OK. OK. Yes. OK. Keep breathing into her mouth! Keep breathing into her mouth! Breathe into her mouth!
911 OPERATOR: Is she breathing now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!
911 OPERATOR: OK, you need to tell me...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Try to calm down, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Did she respond to the breaths at all?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no. I don`t think so. Did she respond to the breaths? Did she respond?
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t think so.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What I want you to do, if she`s lying flat on her back...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, here he comes! Here he comes! They`re here! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over here!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s a heart-wrenching 911 call, but all the screaming, all the hysteria -- they had a month to take the little girl to the doctor. A simple treatable malady, type I diabetes, and they watched the girl lie there, wasting away in great pain, go into a coma and die before frantic relatives out in California call the local police, call 911 and go, Please, help us. Too little, too late! The girl is dead. Now they`re claiming freedom of religion.
Let`s go out to Jeff Starck, reporter with "The Wausau Daily Herald." What happened, Jeff? Hold on. No start. We`ll be right back with him.
Let`s go to Eben Brown, investigate reporter. Eben, bring me up to date.
EBEN BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, right now, police and investigators in the Wausau, Wisconsin, area are investigating this whole matter to see whether or not they`re going to file charges against the family. Some legal professors and legal types say that this is a chargeable offense and...
GRACE: Eben, Eben, Eben.
BROWN: Yes?
GRACE: I don`t need a law review article right now, OK? I`ve got the Supreme Court ruling right here in my hand (INAUDIBLE) What I want to hear are the facts. This is going to depend on the facts whether or not there`s going to be a prosecution. Eben, what happened?
BROWN: Well, what happened is that this little girl laid for about a month at this family`s home...
GRACE: Oh!
BROWN: ... with -- you know, slowly wasting away from this diabetic coma. The family chose to act by praying. Now, if you ask the family, they say they did choose to act, although some people say that they chose to sit there and let the child die. And that`s what police investigators are trying to determine, whether or not this is a chargeable act.
GRACE: OK, let me get this straight, Eben Brown. They are not affiliated with any specific religion. Yes, no.
BROWN: True. True, they are not members of any church.
GRACE: The child has been taken out of the public school system and is being home schooled. Yes, no.
BROWN: True.
GRACE: The child has not seen a doctor since about age 3, when she got the shots. Yes or no.
BROWN: True.
GRACE: OK. For about a month, the child was losing weight, wanted to drink a lot of water, in a general malaise, ultimately went into a coma. Relatives begged for them to seek medical attention. Is all of that correct?
BROWN: That`s correct, yes.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go to Chief Dan Vergin with the Everest Metro Police Department, joining us from Wisconsin. What`s the holdup in the arrest, Chief?
CHIEF DAN VERGIN, EVEREST METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, first of all, our part of this is to -- we`re the fact finders. We seek the truth. And you know, we want to be able to paint the complete picture before we present a case to the district attorney`s office. So we are not ones -- law enforcement doesn`t jump to conclusions.
We do know that the facts of the case so far are essentially that this girl would have become ill, showing signs of the illness in the last month or so that she would have been symptomatic in the last week. However, you know, she wasn`t laying in a dire coma for the last week. That occurred Saturday evening, Sunday morning sometime, so...
GRACE: Can I ask you something, Chief?
VERGIN: If the relatives out in California knew she was in a coma and had been begging the parents to seek medical attention for weeks, don`t you think the parents themselves there in the home knew? I mean, the only way the California relatives knew about it is the mom called out there to speak to her own mother. So they had to call from California to get 911. So how could they know and the parents not know, Chief?
VERGIN: Well, they knew what parents told them.
GRACE: Exactly.
VERGIN: Right. And both calls...
GRACE: So they knew the little...
VERGIN: ... were placed on Saturday, and we got the call on Sunday.
GRACE: I want to go...
VERGIN: So you know...
GRACE: Go ahead. I`m sorry, Chief. Go ahead.
VERGIN: I just wanted to clarify the timeframe here, is that I think that those conversations had been going on for some time, where the parents had been calling out to California, asking for prayer, but I don`t think anybody in California realized that this girl was getting as extremely sick as she was here in the last days.
GRACE: Two Eben Brown, investigative reporter. It`s my understanding that the California relatives had been trying to get them to seek medical attention for some time.
BROWN: Well, we know of one relative that had some grave concerns here because this relative, I believe is the child`s aunt, called the local police there in Wisconsin. This was is a relative that is in California. And even though there was a great distance between them, perhaps maybe that relative knew that this child may have had some serious health problems and wasn`t getting medical care, that the family was resorting only to prayer.
GRACE: OK. I want to go back to Chief Dan Vergin with the Everest Metro Police Department. Chief, I`m reading directly from the 911 call, where the California relative calls 911 and says, "We`ve been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a few days now." So for days, the parents knew the child needed to go to the hospital.
VERGIN: I believe you`re correct, yes.
GRACE: Now...
VERGIN: Yes, the parents knew that she was ill. The coroner`s report said that in her condition, she would have been, as I said, symptomatic, that she would have been showing real signs of being need of medical attention.
GRACE: I want to go to Kent H. Harshbarger, medical examiner joining us from Dayton, Ohio. What are the symptoms of ketoacidosis?
DR. KENT H. HARSHBARGER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, at the end, obviously, the coma, the lethargy that develops, she`d become less responsive. The other symptoms involve the diabetes, the -- you know, drinking a lot, urinating a lot, nausea, vomiting as the GI tract begins to not work appropriately. There can be headache. Over time, there`s weight loss. She doesn`t grow appropriately. Those are the main things. Near the end, of course, the coma, she becomes less responsive.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Diane in Virginia. Hi, Diane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: How are you? What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I`m fine. Hey, congratulations on the twins. And I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had a question, OK? If all this was going on with her and they were talking to the relatives, couldn`t somebody step in and not only with the police, get, like, a court order so they could take that child out of that house and get her that medical treatment she so desperately needed?
GRACE: Absolutely. It could have happened. Let`s go out to the attorneys joining us tonight. Let`s unleash them. Joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Renee Rockwell. Out of New York, veteran trial lawyer Doug Burns. Doug, how does it work?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, that`s an excellent question because you would think that somebody could go into court and petition the judge and cite the law that you`ve been referring to, Nancy, which is you can argue religion all day long, but the courts have rejected it when there`s a situation involving serious physical harm or the potential of death. And they might have been able to get somebody to step in. That`s a good point.
GRACE: It`s an excellent point, but somebody actually has to do it. And with the relatives out in California -- I mean, the relatives finally break down and call local 911.
Out to Jeff Starck. We`ve re-hooked up that satellite. He is with the "Wausau Daily Herald," joining us from Wausau. Jeff, explain to us -- the parents say they`re not affiliated with any specific religion, that they chose to sit by and pray while the girl went into a coma and died. What exactly are their religious beliefs?
JEFF STARCK, "WAUSAU DAILY HERALD": Well, that`s one of the things we`re still trying to find out ourselves. We have attempted to speak with the family. We went over to the house earlier today, but it was right after they had spoken with police and they weren`t comfortable with talking to us at that time. However, we have found just from talking to some people in the area that they regularly had Bible discussions at the coffee shop they own here in Weston. And we found some stuff on the Internet where it appears that the mother leads a Bible study group and another group called Women of Favor, where apparently, they discuss different things, including getting in touch and accepting the holy spirit. It appears to be a Christian-based (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Look, I`m all for praying, you know? I`m praying right now. But to sit by and watch your child go into a coma and die?
Back out to the lines. Dan in New Jersey. Hi, Dan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. How are you? I love you, Nancy. I`m a true fan.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cannot wait to see you when I get home at work at 8:00 or 10:00, whenever I get home.
GRACE: You`ve go to tell the defense bar that, OK, because...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you are amazing.
GRACE: ... because I don`t think they agree with you. So what do you think about this one, Dan in New Jersey?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, come on! I mean...
GRACE: I`m all for freedom of religion, but you know, the Supreme Court disagrees with this family sitting by and watching the little girl die, Dan!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you`re much smarter than I am. All I can tell is that I feel like, Wait, if you do this to an animal and you`re neglecting your animal, you can get charged for that. Like, that`s an animal. You can`t go without feeding an animal or just praying over a sick animal. You know, there have to be some criminal charges there, am I wrong?
GRACE: There has to be. And I`ll tell you -- I`ve got Chief Dan Vergin with me. He`s with the Everest Metro Police Department. He`s right. When you hand in a case like this, you better have your T`s crossed and your I`s dotted because there is going to be one big legal fight. And we already see it shaping up.
I want to go to another special guest joining us, James Robinson, spiritual healer and author of "The Secret to Healing." James, thank you for being with us. Explain spiritual healing.
JAMES ROBINSON, SPIRITUAL HEALER: Well, boiled down to a nutshell, it is someone who`s trained to bring God in to perform a healing. It comes in many different shapes and colors, but it`s always has to do with bringing in a higher power to do what can be done to heal someone.
GRACE: Well, James, I`m all for spiritual healing. It`s like the man who goes to heaven and says, What happened, Father God? I prayed for a miracle. And God says, What did you think that ambulance was I sent to your house? That was the miracle. So in this particular case, Mr. Robinson, what do you advise?
ROBINSON: Well, I certainly believe in the power of prayer, but as you say, God comes in all forms, and one of the ones that comes to mind automatically is a doctor. If you`ve got a sick child, I would -- if they had come to me, I would have told them to take them to a doctor. So it`s not that there isn`t a place for prayer. There is. However, you need to have some common sense. And if a child is wasting away, I would certainly have told those people to go take them to the emergency room, or at least someone who`s trained in healing. It doesn`t sound to me like they did anything.
GRACE: You know, I want to go back out to Eben Brown, investigative reporter. Explain to me again what these symptoms the child -- what symptoms was the child having?
BROWN: Well, the child was slowly going into what eventually is called a diabetic coma. The symptoms include vomiting and nausea and constant urination, those types of things. Eventually, the child gets very -- or any patient, really, any diabetic patient will get very, very lethargic and eventually slip into this coma, which at that point, this really needs to be treated. It could really be treated beforehand. And I believe there are plenty of hospitals out there that treat these symptoms before it ever gets to this advanced stage. And it`s more common than you think.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: So you want me to send an ambulance over there, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please. I mean, I don`t -- she`s refusing -- she`s going to fight it, so I don`t know what -- I mean, she`s going to fight. She`s going to fight it because she -- we`ve been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now, so...
911 OPERATOR: I`ll get somebody going.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Wonderful. Thank you so much.
911 OPERATOR: Thanks. Bye-bye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Marathon County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?
911 OPERATOR: Marathon County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 9807 Maplewood.
911 OPERATOR: Maplewood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t hear you.
911 OPERATOR: We have an ambulance, a fire department and an officer responding to your place. Do you need something?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A girl is not breathing.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know how to do CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry?
911 OPERATOR: Do you know how to do CPR, sir?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: They can scream and be hysterical now on the 911 call, but the reality is they sat by for about a month and watched this little girl slowly waste away painfully, then go into a coma and die from a treatable malady, type I diabetes. They chose to pray instead of taking her to a doctor.
Out to the lines. Tracy in Illinois. Hi, Tracy.
BROOKS: Hi, Nancy. You know, I`m the mom of three, and the first sign of sniffles and they`re off to the doctor`s. I was wondering, are there any other children in the home? And how safe are they and have they been removed?
GRACE: To Eben Brown, investigative reporter. There are other children in the home, and they`re there tonight, correct?
BROWN: That`s correct. And this is all undergoing a police investigation, so no action has really been taken yet. They are, again, looking into the death of this girl, but no other action has been taken with any type of child protection services as of yet.
GRACE: This is a very treatable form of diabetes, yes, Dr. Harshbarger?
HARSHBARGER: Well, certainly, type I diabetes is basically a lack, a relative lack of insulin. They require insulin to manage the glucose levels in the body. So by replacing that insulin, you can manage the glucose levels. Some patients are managed better than others, but it`s certainly treatable. From the time...
GRACE: Isn`t it a simple shot? It`s a shot. Insulin injections, right?
HARSHBARGER: Correct. And managing diet.
GRACE: That`s all it took.
To Leah in Illinois. Hi, Leah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, I`ve been a type I diabetic pretty much all of my life. I`ve been diabetic since I was 4, and I`m 24 now. And I`m absolutely appalled by this. I`ve gone through diabetic ketoacidosis four times. And you go through excruciating pain. Like, it`s unbelievable pain. You can`t breathe the vomiting, all of that. It`s just -- I am so sad for this family. I`m a Christian, and I prayed for my diabetes to go away, and I`m still on the insulin pump. Prayer did not help in this situation.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK. What I want you to do, if she`s lying flat on her back...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) OK, here he comes! Here he comes! They`re here!
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you get the address?
911 OPERATOR: Yes, 9807 Maplewood Drive, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know how to do CPR, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Hello?
911 OPERATOR: Yes. Can you hear me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know how to do CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I don`t know. Nobody`s doing it. Nobody`s been doing it. (INAUDIBLE) anybody...
911 OPERATOR: 9807 Maplewood Drive, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Yes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: They sat by while she died, their little girl. Now they`re claiming freedom of religion is going to protect them from a prosecution?
Back out to Leah in Illinois. Leah, what do you go through physically when you go into ketoacidosis, which is diabetic coma?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s awful. You`re -- it hurts to breathe. You -- it feels like you`ve never drank a drop of water in your life. You urinate constantly, but it hurts to move. It`s awful. It`s terrible, excruciating pain.
GRACE: To Chief Dan Vergin with the Everest Metro Police Department. Chief, this child went through a lot of suffering before she died.
VERGIN: She went through everything you have described there, indeed. You know, this -- one thing that I want to interject is that child social services has been involved and we have the children out of the home, being interviewed, actually, as we speak. So we`re determining now if it`s safe to return them to the home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. We have an ambulance and several people heading to your place.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Thank you. (INAUDIBLE). OK. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You have to do this. Do you want to try the CPR on her?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Uh-huh. OK. Tell me.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Lie her flat on her back and position her head up so her airway is open, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: First put your face by her nose and make sure that she`s breathing, that she`s not breathing. Are you sure she`s not breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. Put your face by her nose, make sure she`s breathing. OK. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I don`t know. There`s something or maybe not.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Just -- you need to just calm down and breathe, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Now just feel by her nose and see if she`s breathing. For air.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. Is she breathing? Is she breathing? Is she breathing? No, she`s not. Look (INAUDIBLE). She`s not breathing. OK, she`s not breathing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you to the murder at University of North Carolina of a student coed, as well as one at Duke University where tonight we learned the probation officer herself who dropped the ball has -- is a convicted felon. That`s right, a convict governing the convicts. We`ve got to go back this story. A little girl died while her parents sit by and pray. She was sick for a month with a very simple malady, type 1 diabetes.
Out to the lines, Janet in Illinois. Hi, Janet.
JANET, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. First I want to say how cute the twins are getting and I thank you so much for sharing the updates with us.
GRACE: Thank you.
JANET: And my comment is, I was very close to going into a comma when I went to the hospital, it`s horrifically painful. Everything that young lady said earlier, it`s true. And no one that can call themselves a human being can stand by and watch their child go through it.
But my question is: what is to say that someone is going to say, OK, faith let me neglect my child because I was praying and she`d get better. What about faith requires me beat my child because the bible says spare the rot, did we get by with that? No. So I mean, hopefully they will throw the book at this people.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to the lawyers with what Janet in Illinois has just brought up.
To Renee Rockwell and Doug Burns, Renee, how is this any different from, for instance, your child being run over by a bus and lying there in the street with a broken leg and you say, I`m just going to pray that the child could crawl off the street and have her leg healed? How is this any different?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first of all, I`m all for staying deep in prayer, don`t get me wrong. But in a case like this.
GRACE: Yes, I think you need it about right now.
ROCKWELL: But in a case like this, what is going to be germane is whether or not these individuals knew that this child had diabetes and knew that the neglect was going to lead to her death. You got to think that at some point they should have had a clue. In this state, Nancy, this form of child neglect will lead to 25 years in penitentiary.
GRACE: So my question to you is, repeat, how is this any different from a child being in a car crash and refusing treatment? They sat by for at least a month while this child suffered.
ROCKWELL: Well -- and Nancy, this is exactly what this is. This was suffering and it`s almost at this -- the parents` hands, so I think it is quite different. One was an accident, this is almost inaction which rises to the level of action.
GRACE: What`s your defense, what`s your defense Renee?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, the only defense I can see for them is whether or not they knew that this condition -- number one, did they know that the child had diabetes, and number two, did they know that this condition would lead to the child`s death?
GRACE: Well, you know, to your Doug Burns.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: .it`s very well established in Oklahoma versus Funkhauser.
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: .where the child had pneumonia.
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: .and the parents sat by and let the child die. To me this falls right into the footsteps of Funkhauser.
BURNS: I think the test -- as I think I mentioned earlier, if it`s a very serious medical situation which could cause death, I agree with you, Nancy, 100 percent. But the courts are clear that you can`t cite religion as a defense. If you said I`m not having my kid wear a hat because of my religion and maybe they caught a sniffle, that`s different.
But at this level, I agree with you. But having said that, the defense to a murder would be, they actually, as bizarre as it sounds, intended for the kid to get better, but that doesn`t excuse a prosecution from, let`s say, child neglect or reckless or negligent homicide.
GRACE: Child neglect ending in death.
BURNS: Yes, right.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Linda in North Carolina. Hi, Linda.
LINDA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your sweet babies.
GRACE: You know what? In the break, just before we came back to air, I was talking through my ear to my line producer about how upset I was today that John David apparently is teething and he`s hurting.
LINDA: Right.
GRACE: He`s hurting so much. I tried everything I can think of, I have called the doctor, done everything. I can`t imagine sitting by and watching your child die.
LINDA: No. Nancy, our child was diagnosed with diabetes type 1 at age 11. No, I did not know children had diabetes.
GRACE: Right.
LINDA: But I knew there was something wrong. What`s wrong with these people? And we did find out it was the weight loss, I saw the weight loss, I saw the frequent urination, I saw the thirst, unbearable thirst, we took her to the doctor and then ended up, of course, at a hospital for children.
But my question, and nobody could have prayed any harder than we prayed for our kids, you have children, you know how it hurts.
GRACE: Well, you -- don`t you see, Linda, you got an answer to your prayer?
LINDA: Exactly, and that`s what I was going to say, the miracle these people were praying for is here, it`s called insulin.
GRACE: What is your question, Linda?
LINDA: That`s what I wanted to ask you, Nancy. Don`t you think they have a miracle?
GRACE: Yes. Yes, I do.
LINDA: Don`t you think that they have a miracle? It`s called insulin.
GRACE: I think they have a miracle, and the miracle is, you can dial three digits on the phone, and your child will be taken to the best care in the world here in this country. It doesn`t matter if you`re rich or your poor or you go to college or you sweep the streets. You can go and there will be a way that your child can be saved.
I want to go out to our special guest, James Robinson, spiritual healer and author of "The Secrets to Healing." Explain to me, James, and again, thank you very much for being with us. Do you believe that anything can be healed or solved through the power of prayer?
JAMES ROBINSON, SPIRITUAL HEALER, AUTHOR, "THE SECRETS TO HEALING": Well, the simple answer is yes. However, I think that, as everybody has commented on, that prayer is answered in different ways. And people who ignore medical help are risking serious injury or illness or death if they ignore the resources that are available to them. I would like to say that my heart goes out to these parents who have lost probably something very precious to them.
And I hope that we all take this in a positive way and give them support and the last thing I think we should do is lock them up. I think they need our help, not our hatred.
GRACE: I don`t hate them, James Robinson, I don`t hate them at all, but who I really feel sorry for, who I really would pray for is the little girl who sat by in so much pain while her parents did nothing.
So Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport," Pat, what do you make of the parents` claim that they did not realize their daughter was seriously ill?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, I find that a little hard to believe, Nancy. Look at this, the question is, is this about true belief or is it about control? So we look back to this little girl, she stopped getting care at 3 years old, medical care, that is. I want to know, in those eight years, did the parents themselves, mom and dad, ever go to a doctor to get treated for anything? Did they ever go to the hospital for a broken foot?
Did they ever take an Exedrin? Did they ever take some Alka-Seltzer for the stomach? Because in those eight years, if those parents ever did that, then it is not about believe you can solve everything with prayer, all your health problems with prayer, it`s about control. So that`s what the investigators, I hope, are going to be looking at.
GRACE: Well, I do know as soon as she quit breathing, the father tried to administer CPR. I don`t know what else they had done.
To Caryn Stark, psychologist, based on what you`re hearing, what is this -- indicative of? Did the parents really not know she was sick? How can that be?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think they didn`t want to know, Nancy. They didn`t want to know there was an alternative. Everybody has free will, God gave people free will. And somehow they were misguided in believing that they could (INAUDIBLE) this.
GRACE: But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What about this factor?
Chief Dan Vergin with us, Everest Metro Police Department. Chief, they gave a quote that we`re not, quote, "crazy religious people," I guess they`re trying to refer to Christian scientists, and they don`t have a problem with doctors. Right there, I mean, right there, they are saying they knew this was wrong.
CHIEF DAN VERGIN, EVEREST METRO P.D.: Well, they`re not the ones who made that quote about themselves. They`re quote is been consistent is that they felt that they could -- heal their daughter by prayer and faith. And that`s all that they have consistently said. What they felt about her condition, how bad it was, they realized in the last two days of her life that this was getting dire, but their statements to us were they still felt that through their prayer and faith, that she would be -- she could be healed.
GRACE: When we come back, the UNC and Duke student murders. Tonight we learn the murder suspect`s probation officer faked records to cover it up. And to top it all off, she`s got her own criminal record. A convict supervising convicts? And they wonder what went wrong?
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warren Lovett Jr. is not the only one that has a detailed criminal history. His probation officer has one, too. The court say the officer was pulled off Lovett`s case in early March after reportedly being arrested for her second DUI since 2005. According to records the probation only attempted to contact Lovett once before Eve Carson was killed. And the officer never followed up.
Then on the day Lovette was arrested and charged with murder, the probation officer adds backdating accounts of (INAUDIBLE) and cell phone calls. Records reveal the officer even changed probation records to show her one attempted visit to the home including a warning of an arrest warrant when it never did.
Now officials are trying to determine why the officer was not put on administrative duties sooner. Maybe Eve Carson`s death could have been avoided.
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GRACE: A convict supervising the convicts. That`s what it all boils down to. And let`s not forget that one of these suspected killers -- Lovett was arrested at least two times between the murder of Duke grad student Mahato and the cold-blooded murder of Eve Carson.
Two arrests, no probation revocation, nothing. Both of these guys had extreme rap sheets, a lot of convictions, juvenile histories. So you got the probation officer knowing she`s in hot water and goes back and falsifies the probation records.
Shelvia Dancy joining us, CNN affiliate News 14 Carolina.
Shelvia, what do we know?
SHELVIA DANCY, REPORTER, NEWS 14 CAROLINA: This is what we know so far. That probation officer, Chalita Thomas, was placed on administrative duty March 7th, ostensibly because of those recent DWI charges. The Department of Corrections is investigating that. Now that investigation is expanded because apparently she never met face to face with Lawrence Lovett while he was on probation so now the DoC is trying to get to the bottom of that and figure out what happened.
GRACE: You know, I`ve seen in a lot of jurisdictions -- let`s go out to Gurnal Scott, with WPTF Newsradio -- a lot of jurisdictions don`t want probation revocations which simply means you`re on probation, you screw up, your probation is revoked, and you go to jail. They don`t want technical violations like you don`t pay a fine to end up in you going back to jail. Is it true that there in North Carolina there was recent legislation proposed to clamp down on probation, but it wasn`t passed?
GURNAL SCOTT, REPORTER, WPTF NEWSRADIO: That is true. There was that recent attempt to pass that kind of legislation, but apparently lawmakers didn`t see that kind of effect that was needed to end the probation situation and that`s what`s led to this.
GRACE: Oh really, because, Gurnal Scott, I`ve done a little nosing around and it appears that about 15 out of 52 legislators there in North Carolina are lawyers. Now you can`t be a prosecutor and be in the legislature, so that says to me they are civil and criminal defense lawyers. You think they want to pass tough probation regulations? I guess not, Gurnal.
SCOTT: Well, it appears you`ve hit on it right there because that would not be of interest to them.
GRACE: You know, it`s incredible. I want to go to Michael Nail with the Georgia Department of Corrections, former Georgia director of probation.
Mr. Nail, it`s great to have you with us again. Explain to me how a probation officer can have a criminal history?
MICHAEL NAIL, GA. DEPT. OF CORRECTIONS, FORMER GA. DIR. OF PROBATION: Well, I can`t really explain that, Nancy, specifically in this case. I do know that prior to being hired, probation officers undergo a background check and if anything is revealed on their record, then it`s investigated. But I certainly can`t explain that in this case.
GRACE: I mean, can you be a probation or a parole officer when you have a criminal history?
NAIL: Certainly not with felony convictions. There could be cases where you have prior misdemeanor offenses that could have occurred long before you even applied for the probation job and even those are looked into and scrutinized greatly.
GRACE: So -- you know, I want to go back to Shelvia Dancy, this -- Chalita Ann Thomas, let`s see her picture again, Liz. This is the probation officer that went back to falsify, allegedly falsify records to make it look like she had been doing her job with one of these suspected killers which she didn`t. What are her convictions? I mean, was it one of them for going into a computer illegally and looking up information on people?
DANCY: You know one of those charges was for illegally accessing a computer, looking at some information that should have been off limits to her. So that right here kind of raises a red flag, you know, about some issues that she may have with doing that kind of thing.
GRACE: But they kept her on.
Out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
SHEEBA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, sweetie. You still look beautiful.
GRACE: Bless you. It`s amazing what hair and makeup can do after a long day with two.
SHEEBA: Oh no. You`re just beautiful.
I wanted to ask you if this probation officer went back and rigged this documentation, can she be prosecuted for that? Is that.
GRACE: Let`s go to the lawyers. My question exactly.
Doug Burns, Renee Rockwell, what about it, Renee?
ROCKWELL: Well, I would think so, Nancy. Now what she may say is I did this and I took my own personal notes and then after all this happened, I went ahead and entered it into the computer. But in that jurisdiction, by the close of business on the following business day, all personal notes have to be entered into this computer. So she`s not going to be able to say that she did anything.
GRACE: So Doug Burns, sounds like falsifying documents?
BURNS: Oh yes, sure. There are statutes, intentionally falsifying and entering a document, there may even be one, Nancy, in connection with the duties as a probation officer. I mean this is a bad apple in the keg, it`s really unfortunate, but it`s not indicative, thank God, of the thousands of probation officers in this country.
GRACE: Well, you know, I don`t know. I don`t know if this is an epidemic.
Caryn Stark, going back and falsifying records sounds like an admission of guilt to me.
STARK: It certainly does, Nancy. Can you imagine if you have a situation with a doctor who decides to add his notes two months later, a year later? It doesn`t make a lot of sense. Covering the tracks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To "HEADLINE PRIME`s" Glenn Beck. Hi, friend.
GLENN BECK, HOST, GLENN BECK SHOW: Apparently Hillary Clinton likes the makeup man chose the questions, but her daughter prefers to simply dismiss questions outright. You know what? I`m sorry, you`re on the campaign trail, and you`re 27 years old. Oh yes, that`s right, and you`re apparently good enough to work for a hedge fund. I think you can answer some questions on the campaign trail.
More on arrogance of politicians in just a bit.
Then Barack Obama says he didn`t always listen to the teachings of his church, but how do you explain the $27,000 donation to a church you weren`t really listening to?
And the Supreme Court wins. Our sobriety is safe. For now.
Details coming up.
GRACE: Tonight we`re taking a look at the murders of Eve Carson, UNC student, and that of a Duke grad student. We find out falsified records by probation and, look, isn`t it correct, Shelvia Dancy, she only had to meet with the probationers once a month?
DANCY: Right. Lovett had the lowest level of supervision required for probation because his juvenile record wasn`t available to the adult court officials. So he had the lowest level of supervision required for probation, that didn`t require curfew.
GRACE: And she couldn`t.
DANCY: .multiple meetings with a team of probation officers or anything like that.
GRACE: .even do that.
DANCY: It does get a lot of question.
GRACE: She has a lot (INAUDIBLE).
To Nita in Mississippi. Hi, Nita.
NITA, MISSISSIPPI RESIDENT: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
NITA: Well, basically, Nancy, I`m just wondering is there a way they can check her records to see if he paid her off in order to not have to go.
GRACE: Is there a way to do that, Michael Nail? Can you -- has that ever been investigated in other cases?
NAIL: If the allegation is made by the offender that they did, in fact, make a payment and there`s no indication that a payment has been made, that`s when it will be looked into and investigated, absolutely.
GRACE: Michael Nail joining us, former Georgia director of probation.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Blair Emory, 24, Lee Maine, killed, Iraq, MP on a second tour, awarded the National Service Medal and Overseas Service ribbon. Loved outdoor, fishing, lake and sailboats, playing with his band, Madison Avenue. Favorite food, baked beans. He leaves behind a wonderful family, parents Bill and Quie, sisters Betsy, Hilary, widow Chu.
Blair Emery, American hero.
Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night friend.
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