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A Masked Gunman, a Hostage, and a Television Camera; College Student Slammed by Chelsea Clinton; Top Cities Indulge in Seven Deadly Sins

Aired March 30, 2008 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: A masked gunman, a hostage, and a television camera. Tonight, new video that put you there when threats are screened. Shots are fired and the hostage goes down. So many questions. We will ask them.
New video tonight, Barack the farmer milking cows. Barack the bowler, oops, gutter ball. What's the real message they are trying to send us here?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHELSEA CLINTON, HILLARY CLINTON'S DAUGHTER: And I do not think that is any of your business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Ouch. The college student slammed by Chelsea. He joins us and gets slammed again or Boortz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL BOORTZ: I think Chelsea should have invited Evan Strange up on the stage and slapped the dog squeeze out of him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: This kid deserve this?

Don't like him or her or him? You may have a new choice. Senator Mike Gravel is leaving the Democratic Party. Third-party candidate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MIKE CRAVEL: They had no respect for my values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: This is the real deal on the weekend rundown, now.

And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. OK, let's start with this. Tonight, new and remarkable piece of video. It's captured by a photographer as bullets are flying in downtown Miami. An armed robber, a hostage, a hail of bullets, and plenty of questions.

Now, watch and listen to this footage captured outside of a Walgreens by a Miami photographer from WPLG.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Put your hands up! Come back.

He's coming to the front.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Give it up! Just give it up! Just give it up!

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: This is a remarkable story. It really has been the talk for so many people. Let's do this now. For a more complete perspective on how this thing begins and how it plays out, I want you to watch this report now as it's filed by WPLG's Sasha Andrade.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SASHA ANDRADE, WPLG REPORTER (voice-over): Scenes like this one are all too familiar in South Florida. Lights and sirens surrounding a convenient store. It's how so many armed robberies end. But this time, in this Walgreens, this is just the beginning.

Officers responding to a 911 call for help, unknowingly walked into a robbery in progress while our cameras were rolling. Store employee, Roy Barnes, was inside the Walgreens at the time. He says he and several others were trapped at gunpoint in a back room.

ROY BARNES, WALGREENS EMPLOYEE: He was going to shoot everybody. It was really horrifying.

ANDRADE: Barnes says a masked gunman came in demanding money. He says the robber was busy stuffing it into a garbage bag when he noticed incoming police officers on the security monitors.

BARNES: He saw the police on the monitor coming in the store and he still insisted on getting more money.

ANDRADE: According to Barnes, the gunman grabbed the store manager and used him to try to get away. If you look closely, you can see a trash bag in the manager's hand and a gun pointed right to his back. Now, listen closely.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Give it up! Just give it up! Just give it up!

UNIDENTIFIED GUNMAN: Hey, get back, I'll shoot him.

ANDRADE: The exchange seemed to trigger this Walgreens manager who suddenly began fighting with all he had. Local 10 photographer, Fabrissio Lopez, watched it all from behind the lens of his camera.

FABRISSIO LOPEZ, NEWS CAMERAMAN: He started fighting with the guy. He got a gun. And then he pushed him and he puts his bag and then I say, wow, he wants to shoot the guy.

ANDRADE: That point is a controversial one. Take a look again just before the gunman puts the manager into the car. He waves his gun and then there's a pop.

Seconds later came the roaring and unmistakable sounds of gunfire. A lot of it. The video doesn't show where it's coming from, so the next shot leaves you holding your breath until finally the hostage gets up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just thanking the good Lord.

ANDRADE: So many dramatic images, yet this is the one that tells the real story, of a man who fought for his life on the violent streets of South Florida and won.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Yes, incidentally, the gunman shot by police was still able to drive off in the manager's car before he was finally caught. The hostage, we understand, was not injured.

Now, as you watched that video, didn't you begin to wonder why they didn't take him out before the situation got more out of hand? We did as we were looking at this. Joining us now by phone is Jeff Beatty. He's a former FBI and former CIA, and an advisor to the National Hostage Rescue Team. So we've got the right guest for you.

Mr. Beatty, thanks so much for joining us, sir. Very simple and direct question for you. Why didn't they, the police that is, take a shot at this guy when he was first coming out and there seems to be a pretty good -- freeze it right there, if you would, Claude? Freeze that.

There seems to be a pretty good separation between him and the hostage. Why wouldn't they take him out right there?

JEFF BEATTY, SECURITY EXPERT: Well, Rick, a couple of things would factor into the law enforcement people who are on the scene into their decision. First of all, remember, you're looking at this through a camera lens. We don't know what kind of zoom we have involved here. We don't know how close the police are. And whether or not they have anything other than handgun.

The handgun, the range that they are probably going to get out of that is 50 to 75 feet to be absolutely accurate that they are not going to hurt the wrong people. The other problem that they've got is you don't know...

SANCHEZ: So let me just stop you there, just for a minute before we get into the other part. So the first officers who respond to the scene aren't necessarily sharp shooters, you're saying.

You're saying they are just officers who just got there. All they have is their pistol and you wouldn't recommend that they use that pistol to take a guy out in situation like that? BEATTY: Well, first of all, that's correct, Rick. And also, you know, we don't know yet exactly what's happening. So far, no shots have been fired.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BEATTY: No one seems to be in danger. But you recall later that while they are over near the car.

SANCHEZ: Right.

BEATTY: You do hear the perpetrator say, I'll shoot him. And one shot seems to be fired. And then after that, the police did come to the conclusion that, OK, he's ready to use deadly force. We need to go ahead and engage this individual.

And, you know, there probably was that ranges that was a little long for a handgun shot and that's probably why you heard many, many shots but not necessarily a lot of hits on the perpetrator.

SANCHEZ: Don't you want to do everything possible to stop this guy from having a hostage, having a gun in his hand, and having the wheel of the car in the other hand. In other words, driving away in a vehicle where you can only imagine how much more damage you can do?

BEATTY: Well, we certainly could, Rick. But the principle here is, you know, until you're certain that this hostage taker is ready to kill the hostage, you want to try to go for the negotiated outcome. But as soon as you fired that first round, that made it all bets off.

Then the law enforcement officers were in a position to say, OK, he is what we call a fleeing dangerous felon and that's when he can be engage. It's not just fleeing felon but fleeing dangerous because you're right. At this point, he's armed, he's already fired one shot, and he's being chased by the police. He is a danger to other people and, therefore, they can engage him.

SANCHEZ: Mr. Beatty, what do you make of this hostage fighting back before -- as he starts to realize, hey, I'm not going in this car with this guy, he starts fighting him. What did you make of that?

BEATTY: Well, I think that he probably -- one of two things, Rick. I mean, it could go either way. I'm curious what the relationship is between the hostage taker and the manager. I don't know if they knew each other before, if it was a disgruntled employee.

SANCHEZ: Apparently not.

BEATTY: OK, we know that now, good. But I mean, people have an ultimate responsibility to save their own lives, to make the best decision they can for the position that they are in.

We've seen it happen in tragedies such as 911 when people called down to the law enforcement officers, and say that it is safe to leave or should we stay in the building? And they got the wrong information. People are going to have to make a decision, is it safer for me to get in this car and go away with this person or is it safer for me, as dangerous as it may seem, to resist and to try to break away from him now. You know, in the military, Rick...

SANCHEZ: He made his decision. Down in ten seconds, close it out.

BEATTY: In the military, they tell you try to escape as early as you can. Perhaps, he's had some of that training and maybe that's what he's used.

SANCHEZ: Mr. Beatty, you've been a perfect guest for a segment like this. You've answered many of our questions and we certainly appreciate it, sir.

BEATTY: Glad to be with you.

SANCHEZ: Tonight, overseas, there's a tragedy in the United Kingdom. This is the wreck of a jet. A private passenger plane that went down in a neighborhood. It's just outside London, we understand.

It crashed into a house and left horrible wreckage all over the place. Five people on board. They are all dead but amazingly, nobody was inside the house at the time. You know why? Because they happen to be away on vacation when the plane crashed into their home.

The college student slammed by Chelsea Clinton tells us his side of the story, right here on CNN. And then, he gets slammed again. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL BOORTZ, THE NEAL BOORTZ SHOW: Have invited Evan Strange up on the stage and slapped the dog squeeze out of him.

SANCHEZ: Really?

BOORTZ: And then kicked him in the groin and sent him back into the audience. I think that the question to bring up the Monica Lewinsky situation, with Bill Clinton's daughter, is absolutely beyond the pale. He ought to get a failing grade in that mass communications class and ought to be laughed off the campus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: That kid just got Boortz. We're going to have to share the rest of that with you. Our talkers take on the college kid. Who's right on this one, by the way?

We want to know what you think. Also, there's a new poll out. One saying how many Americans still believe Barack Obama is a Muslim. While Barack Obama spends the weekend bowling and milking cows.

And then lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride. It's a new list of cities -- this is actually a list that's been put out. The cities that indulge in the deadly sins. Do you live in one of them? We'll spell it out for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Here's that list we were just telling you about. Believe it or not, condom and contraceptive sales have a new use. "Forbes" magazine has gathered that data to determined the most lustful cities in America. It's for their list of American cities that embody to seven deadly sins. Drum roll, please.

Packer up, Denver. You are number one on the list of lust, that is, because no government entity here we search can calculate exactly how vigorous our sex lives are. The magazine used data from research from AC Nielsen. Ingenuous and I guess congratulations.

There's also a new poll out this weekend detailing how many Americans still buy into the Muslim rumor about Barack Obama. According to the Pew Research Center, one of the ten Americans -- one of ten American surveyed, still believe that he is a Muslim.

In fact, let's go ahead and break this down for you. Here it is. Among Republicans, 14 percent say or think he's a Muslim. 10 percent of Democrats think he's a Muslim. Independents also confused, 8 percent of them think that he is a Muslim.

Now let's turn to Obama campaigning today in Pennsylvania. Is this just a coincidence? He was looking for -- looking very middle America visiting afar, feeding a cow from a bottle. Talk about Joe farmer. Later he went bowling. Very every man. It sounds like an episode of the "Simple Life." But instead of Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie, insert Barack Obama today.

In the news biz, we call those video opportunities given to us of the candidate. Let's go to our talkers.

He's always on the right side. Conservative talk show host, Shelley Wynter. Also joining us, Loretta Lepore, former press secretary for Georgia Republican governor, Sonny Perdue. She now works for Senator John McCain's campaign. And John Sugg, noted columnist and senior fellow at "Think Atlanta".

What do you guys make of this? Because look, I understand retail politics. You've got to go around, you've got to kiss babies, you got to do all of that stuff. But doesn't this man have an added burden because of that very poll that we just shared with our viewers? Many people think he's a Muslim.

SHELLEY WYNTER, RADIO HOST, THE RIGHT SIDE: Not really, only 10 percent. That means 90 percent believe that he's not.

SANCHEZ: 14 percent among Republicans.

WYNTER: 86 percent believe that he's not. 8 percent among independents. 92 percent believe that he's not. So I don't think -- I think the story is, and I may not be invited back after saying this, but I think the story is the insult that CNN would run a story saying hey, is Barack Obama Muslim because 10 percent of Democrats believe that he is. I think that's unfair.

SANCHEZ: But as you look at what he's doing across America. Do you think -- Loretta, take a look at some of that video. You see a man milking a cow, you see him bowling. This is very Rockwelian (ph), isn't it?

LORETTA LEPORE, PUBLIC AFFAIRS ADVISER: It is. But I think Senator Obama is behaving like a presidential candidate. He's kissing babies. He's out there in the heartland of Pennsylvania. And the reality is Senator Obama is down in the polls in Pennsylvania.

Senator Clinton has a big leg up on him there. Governor Rendell who has been out stumping for her for quite a long time. He's brought in a lot of the party establishment. And now Senator Obama has to make up some real ground. So I'm sure there was a calculated decision on the part of the campaign to get Senator Obama off the pedestal.

SANCHEZ: So you don't see -- John let me go to you. They don't seem to think that there's a special burden on this guy, given what's going on American, given what's being said about him on talk radio shows all over America -- who are, by the way, Hussein is always used as his middle name.

JOHN SUGG, SENIOR FELLOW, THINK ATLANTA: Well, I think you hit the button with talk radio. And we saw in the ran up to the Iraq war, what happens when you keep repeating a lie? In that case, Saddam, had something to do with 9/11. And so, they keep repeating this lie, a lot of Americans are going to believe it.

SANCHEZ: Let me tell you something else. This is something that is going on just in the last couple of days. Former governor of New York, Mario Cuomo, wrote an op-ed in the "The Boston Globe" today. Let's go ahead and put that up.

He says quote, "The two could announce that they will complete the primary schedule and convention with a winner becoming candidate for president and the other agreeing to be a candidate for vice president. Thereby, mollifying to some extent the constituency of the candidate who was not chosen as the nominee for president."

What Governor Cuomo seems to be saying is, if these guys really want to bring the Democratic Party together, they are going to have to come together. Do you buy it, Loretta?

LEPORE: No. I think that the Democratic Party is having a really tough time now, because they've got to figure out the superdelegate issue and they've got to figure out how they are not going to disenfranchise voters as they come to some sort of terms.

And I think that, you know, it's Senator Obama or Senator Clinton's prerogative to chose their vice presidential candidate should either one of them be the nominee. I just don't think that...

SANCHEZ: Who would serve the other better, do you think?

John or Shelley? I think Hillary, if they had to come together. And I don't think that they should. And I don't think they can because of the vitriol that's been spread during this race. But my bet would, I think Hillary serves him better as a vice president. I don't think that he should ever accept being a vice president of Hillary Clinton because he's leading.

SANCHEZ: I wish we had time to get in to some of the specifics of that. I know that there are reasons for that. You guys, hold your thought. We're coming back to you in just a little bit as we continue with some of the things going on here in the United States and around the world.

Coming up, two Democratic candidates, only one top prize. Which one really has that electability factor? We're going to talk about that.

Also, do you think it's right to ask Chelsea Clinton about the Monica Lewinsky scandal? And it's affect on her mom. The man who ask the question -- a young man, he's going to join us and so does Neil Boortz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOORTZ: There are plenty of occasions where Hillary Clinton had showed weakness, OK? You don't have to take the daughter and in front of the nation and in front of that campus say, I'm going to ask a question now that's going to remind you of this horrible time when your father was being serviced by some young bimbo in the Oval office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Whoa! The confrontation that you'll only see, right here on the weekend rundown.

Also, say someone is thankful for our troop service in Iraq or Afghanistan. And then they give the Marine, in this case, a gift. Is that a bribe? Well, the military seems to be saying yes.

And it's the issue that China wishes would just go away. An ugly and violent protest today in Tibet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: What we do now is we compile some of the coolest, some of the funniest, and in some cases some of the most fascinating videos of the night. We are going to start tonight with police in Nepal. They are repelling an angry crowd of pro-Tibetan protesters.

Apparently, they were rushing the Chinese embassy. This is taking place in Kathmandu. Those are bamboo sticks that they are using on the crowd. A story no doubt we'll continue to follow.

President Bush throwing out his first pitch at the Washington National's brand new baseball stadium. A little high and inside but not bad. Remember, his dad threw it in the dirt. It's Mr. Bush's six time throwing out a first pitch. He says that he was only a mediocre player in his youth. A White House sources have told CNN tonight, and I don't know I'm suppose to repeat this but I'm going to go ahead and do so, that he's been practicing on the south lawn this week.

Here's another story that we're following for you. This is out of New Zealand. The town that's claiming to be the sheep capital of the world, staging an annual, you guessed it, the running of the sheep. Just like Pamplona and the bulls. Except these guys, they say, can actually do more damage. Just kidding. 2,000 sheep set loose through the streets. Not bad, huh? Try and count them.

Also tonight, we're going to bring you the very latest from San Jose, Sunnyvale, and Santa Clara. It's our live tower cam shot. It shows a gorgeous day giving way to dust in an area most of us call Silicon Valley.

But "Forbes" magazine says there's something more to this picture. It says this is the greediest. Remember, we were giving you the list of the seven deadly sins? This is the greediest city in America. Forget Ivan Boesky and Gordon Gekko.

Instead, this bastion of high-tech and wealth is home to Google's top stockholders, Apple CEOs, Steve Jobs and capitalist Michael Morris. Just to name a few. Stay tuned. More of America's sinful cities, just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We welcome you back, I'm Rick Sanchez. For almost four years, Matt Maupin friends and family have waited for any kind of news about this missing soldier. Today, a military officials came knocking. Staff Sgt. Maupin was captured in Iraq on April 9th, 2004.

A few hours ago, we learned Maupin remains have been positively identified. CNN covered this story extensively following scores of reports. Tonight, the Maupin Family released a statement. It begins with this. Matt is coming home. He has completed his mission.

It doesn't matter if you're for or against the war. The respect and the gratitude for America's troops has been a constant in this country. What happens, though, when an American proves his gratitude by giving a veteran Marine a gift? What happens is the possibility of a court-martial.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAMMIE BARNES, WIFE OF MARINE: My husband is, you know, he's an outstanding Marine. He's been in for 18 years.

SANCHEZ (voice-over): From boot camp to three tours of duty in Iraq and one bronze star. First Sgt. William Barnes is a career Marine. But now the decorated combat veteran is being told to stay away from this Miami base where he trains reservists. He is relieved of duty, under investigation, possibly facing a court martial.

T. BARNES: I am very angry. I am very angry.

SANCHEZ: Why?

Go back to a starry night in mid-December. Miami businessman, Tom Gonzales, invites four Marines to a holiday party on board a $35 million yacht. Gonzales wanted to show his appreciation for the Marine's service in Iraq.

TOM GONZALEZ, MIAMI BUSINESSMAN: I'm honored that we can do something fun for them tonight.

SANCHEZ: The thank you went further. Gonzales' employees gave up their bonus money to give the Marines an unexpected gift. They held a drawing. One Marine won a car. The other three cash, $10,000 apiece. That kind of generosity moved this Marine, who spits nails for a living, close to tears.

1ST SGT. WILLIAM BARNES, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I can't believe that somebody would be this generous and thank me for sacrifices that I made and I appreciate it. I really do.

T. BARNES: He told officers, he told people, hey, you know, this guy did this for us and no one said that's illegal

SANCHEZ: Until now. A Marine Corps spokesperson tells CNN at the moment it does not appear Sergeant Barnes did anything illegal. However, by accepting the gift, he may have violated corps policy. A policy, we're told, that is not taught in basic training but spelled out in a document.

In which just the table of contents is 13 pages long. And, remember, Tom Gonzales, the businessman -- well, the gifts were a surprise to Sergeant Barnes and the others. He says it wasn't a surprise to the Marine Corps.

GONZALEZ: So they knew in advance that we were going to do this.

SANCHEZ: Trial attorney, Douglas Williams, has represented other Marines accused of misconduct. He says Gonzales's statement puts the onus right back on the corps.

DOUGLAS WILLIAMS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And the corps did not either waive the donor, the giver of the gift off or wave the Marines off, then shame on them. They have the responsibility for it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: If you could, Claude, give me a shot of the panel. Raise your hands, guys, if you think that this guy should be able to keep the money and not be court marshalled. Raise your hand. You do. I had a feeling you'd go that way.

All right. We're coming back to you in just a little bit.

Taking on the college kid who asked Chelsea Clinton about the Monica Lewinsky affair. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BOORTZ: That's exactly the kind of question you'd expect out of a college student. You know, that magic age. That's too bad. That magic age when they know everything. Why don't we just turn over the whole operation of this government to college students for a couple of years and see how well -- they know it all anyway.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: By the way, Neil Boortz, wasn't the only person on that panel. The rest of the exchange coming up in just a little bit. You'll hear it all. Then, we told you the greediest. We told you the most lustful. We're going to tell you which cities -- digging guess, which cities lead the way in the rest of the seven deadly sins.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our world headquarters here in Atlanta. I'm Rick Sanchez.

Chelsea Clinton back on the campaign trail this weekend stomping for her mother. But earlier this week, when asked by a 20-year-old Indianapolis college student about her mom's handling of the Monica Lewinsky affair, she cut the guy off at the knees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHELSEA CLINTON: Wow. You're the first person actually that's ever asked me that question. In the -- I don't know, maybe 70 college campuses that I've now been to. And I do not think that's any of your business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Here's my question. We know that mom and dad have always asked that the media handle their daughter with kid gloves. And leave her alone. And I believe that for the most part the media has been very respectful. But if the former first daughter is going to be campaigning for mom, and, by the way, she's now 28 years old, she's not 12 years old anymore, shouldn't she be covered just like any other campaign surrogate?

First, let's do this. Let's go to the young man who actually asked the question. Joining us now is Evan Strange from Butler University in Indianapolis.

Were you taken aback by her answer to you?

EVAN STRANGE, BUTLER UNIVERSITY STUDENT: Absolutely. The question focused on Monica Lewinsky. I just want to clear this up. The question focused on the criticism that she may not be a strong enough leader. So, I think she just took the question wrong and that's why she answered the way she did.

SANCHEZ: Yes, but wait a minute. Let's be fair. You didn't ask that. You did mention Monica Lewinsky in the question, didn't you? STRANGE: Absolutely, but whether or not I mentioned the name the question would still remain the same, it was about her strength.

SANCHEZ: So you think that it was a fair question. You were basically saying did her experience in the way she handled Monica Lewinsky show that she was credible enough to have the job? And by the way, you're a supporter of Hillary Clinton, are you not?

STRANGE: I was. I'm going to wait until she addresses the question before I say anything else. But I mean I was just asking the question to address the strength, not necessarily the credibility.

SANCHEZ: I was somewhat taken aback by the way she responded to you. Because she could have just as easily said, you know, I'm not comfortable talking about that, thanks for coming, but you know, I'm just not going to answer that.

When you say to someone, it's none of your business, sounds to me like it's very confrontational. Did you take it that way?

STRANGE: Yes, I really did. Because I mean, my first reaction was, we're the voters in America, and I feel like the president of the United States is the most important enough position to be able to ask that question. And ultimately, I feel like it is our business.

SANCHEZ: Were you insulted?

STRANGE: No, I wasn't insulted. As I have the right to ask the question, she has the right to decline to answer.

SANCHEZ: Did you go there in a capacity as a member of the general public or were you there in some journalistic or informative capacity?

STRANGE: I was there with a mass communications class and I asked on behalf of myself and other college students.

SANCHEZ: Because there was a story out earlier this week that said that you were writing for the school newspaper?

STRANGE: No.

SANCHEZ: You don't write for the Butler Newspaper?

STRANGE: No, I'm not affiliated with the Butler school newspaper at all.

SANCHEZ: Do you believe that she's ever -- when she said to you, you know, I have been travelling to like 70 different schools and I've never once been asked this question, did you buy that?

STRANGE: I mean, I found it hard to believe, because people on our campus are asking that question. So I mean, it's definitely hard to believe. So I mean, if she says that no one asked her that, then I guess no one asked her. SANCHEZ: Evan, stay right there. We might want to bring you back. Some of the fellows we have here might have some questions for us.

You know who's joining us tonight? Neil Boortz. He wrote "The Terrible Truth about Liberals." Who is it? OK, he's a firebrand as you can already tell. John Sugg is right next to him. He's a witty writer of a column, wrote for "Creative Lofty." Now he's actually a fellow for...

JOHN SUGG, SENIOR FELLOW, THINK ATLANTA: Think Atlanta.

SANCHEZ: Think Atlanta. And also Shelley Wynter. He's a conservative talk show, it's called "The Right Side."

Neil, go ahead. What do you think of this?

NEIL BOORTZ, RADIO HOST: I think Chelsea should have invited Evan Strange up on the stage and slapped the dog squeeze out of him.

SANCHEZ: Really?

BOORTZ: And then kicked him in the groin and sent him back into the audience. I think that the question to bring up the Monica Lewinsky situation, with Bill Clinton's daughter, is absolutely beyond the pale. He ought to get a failing grade in that mass communications class and ought to be laughed off the campus. That's totally out of line.

SANCHEZ: Whoa, Neil!

SUGG: No! I mean, Chelsea is fair game, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

SUGG: OK. She's, you know, if she wants to go out there and shill for her mom's campaign, she's a target, OK? And you know...

SANCHEZ: Neil, Neil is what...

BOORTZ: She's still a daughter.

SUGG: Neil is one of these guys that didn't let up on Bill Clinton during the last years of his presidency, OK? It was all the conservative talk shows could talk about was the stain on the blue dress and all this stuff.

SANCHEZ: But listen, you have to admit, and I think you'll agree with me, maybe you won't. That the media really has been pretty respectable and kind to her all these years. Right?

SUGG: And that's wrong.

SANCHEZ: Really?

SUGG: Yes. SANCHEZ: Do you think we've taken it too far now?

SUGG: No. I don't think that she should be attacked and I don't think she was attacked, but she's fair game for tough questions.

SANCHEZ: Let me go -- Neil, let me go back to you. Why do you think that's so horrible a question?

BOORTZ: Because first, it was -- it had to be -- and I've met Chelsea Clinton. I think she's absolutely delightful.

SANCHEZ: Most people do.

BOORTZ: And I think that her father does not deserve a daughter like that, OK? But that had to be a just horrendous time in her life, and I think Evan's -- I think that the question was more of an attack than it was...

SANCHEZ: Well, let's take that back to Evan then, to be fair.

Evan, he says it was probably more of an attack. Can you answer that charge?

STRANGE: I mean, I think everyone's looking way too far into this. I asked the question because whether people think they are or not, they're asking this question. College students, people around the world are asking this question.

SANCHEZ: Tell Mr. Boortz how you phrased the question.

STRANGE: I asked her what her opinion was on the criticism that Hillary may have showed weakness during the scandal. And that she may not be a strong enough leader for the United States.

SUGG: That's a fair question.

BOORTZ: There are plenty of occasions where Hillary Clinton had showed weakness, OK? You don't have to take the daughter and in front of the nation and in front of that campus say, I'm going to ask a question now that's going to remind you of this horrible time when your father was being serviced by some young bimbo in the Oval office.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when do you ask the question?

BOORTZ: While you and your mother were upstairs...

SANCHEZ: Gentleman, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do you ask the question? I mean...

BOORTZ: You don't ask it of her.

SHELLEY WYNTER, RADIO HOST, THE RIGHT SIDE: But she's out there. She's -- the campaign put her out there specifically to reach 18 to 30-year-olds. That's why they're going to college campuses...

BOORTZ: Am I the only one up here with a daughter?

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: If you put her in Bosnia and say it's a dangerous place, she's in harm's way. If you put her in front of a bunch of college students who may ask a persnickety question, you've got to deal with the consequences.

I think that's what Shelley's saying.

BOORTZ: That's exactly the kind of question you'd expect out of a college student. You know, that magic age. That's too bad. That magic age when they know everything. Why don't we just turn over the whole operation of this government to college students for a couple of years and see how well -- they know it all anyway.

SANCHEZ: I know you did when you were that age, right, John?

SUGG: I think college students are the hope of this nation. And I hear a lot more intelligent questions from college students than I do on the radio a lot of times.

WYNTER: Or that I hear from White House press officers that ask questions of the president. I mean that was fair question. You put her out there. It was a fair question. I think the missed opportunity really was the campaign wasn't prepared for that question because the right answer from Chelsea, I believe, that would have helped her mother more, not that I'm a Hillary Clinton supporter by any stretch of the imagination.

But I think the answer would have been, that my mom in that situation showed loyalty, commitment to family, and these are the kind of attributes that you want to see in your president. So I think that was a golden opportunity missed. I think she was too smug and I think that -- Evan, good job.

SANCHEZ: Interesting conversation. Evan, you're getting the good, the bad and the ugly here, my friend, but my thanks to you for joining us.

BOORTZ: Evan, become an accountant.

SUGG: Become a journalist.

SANCHEZ: More topic as we continue. Stay with us.

By the way, coming up. The argument that Hillary Clinton is more electable than Barack Obama. What is that really mean? And is she?

And we're counting down the cities leading the way in the seven deadly sins. Next up, wrath.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: We've been telling you that we're going to be sharing this list with you. So, here we go. Another one from our countdown of "Forbes" magazine's list of America's most sinful cities. With more than 47 murders per 100,000 residents, that's somewhere over 1800 murders a year, Detroit. Detroit, Michigan, according to "Forbes" magazine is tops when it comes to wrath or violence.

Now, this. ABC News is quoting a Democratic official is saying that Hillary Clinton needs to Tonya Harding, Barack Obama for her to win. Tonya Harding, remember that?

This is an ugly and somewhat cruel suggestion that the only way that the former first lady can win is to try to destroy her competition. The official isn't name which makes us report somewhat questionable. But the analogy has been stirring a buzz in political circles.

So we take it to our panel. What do you think of that quote? What do you think of that kind of analogy?

SUGG: I think that's what Hillary Clinton has been doing.

SANCHEZ: You think she needs to damage him to win?

SUGG: Yes. I think she and Bill have been trying to damage him.

SANCHEZ: Why would she need to do that, John?

SUGG: Because I think otherwise she won't win.

SANCHEZ: You mean, the math. Shelley, you agree?

WYNTER: I agree fully and I think she's also trying to win in 2012. I think you damage Barack Obama now enough, he run against McCain, possible losses and you run against McCain in 2012. I mean, I think this -- the Clintons have shown just an ambition to destroy the Democratic Party.

SANCHEZ: What is wrong with just being tough and going after your opponent? We don't know that she's not at the very end. Got a shake hands and make all things good again, Loretta?

LORETTA LEPORE, PUBLIC AFFAIRS ADVISER: Well, I think that, for whatever reason, I think whenever there's a dust up amongst the Democratic candidates, the dust seems to stay with Hillary Clinton. So she's got this kind of issue.

SANCHEZ: Why is that?

LEPORE: Well, I think because in some parts they have fought a little dirty in some of the primary states. And we've seen, from the electorate, that when that has happened, the electorate has gone with Senator Obama. And so I think maybe the tactics, there's less tolerance among the electorate right now for this type of tactic. And I think that is -- the more they use it, the less it works for her.

SANCHEZ: Can you put your McCain hat on for us now and tell us who between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama you would chose as an opponent because they would be easier? LEPORE: Well, I have to first say that I can't speak in an official capacity. I'm a supporter of Senator McCain. And I think that Senator Clinton has a huge hurdle to cross to become the nominee. So I don't even know that that's going to be a viable option. But I think...

SANCHEZ: Let me ask the question this way. Who could McCain least effectively attack in?

LEPORE: I think that -- let me answer this way. I think that Senator Obama is going to be a tougher opponent. And I think for this reason. He has the ability and he has demonstrated the ability to mobilize people who have never been part of the process before.

He is inspirational in his tone and tenor. Yes, he recognizes that there are problems that the country faces but he has this ability to transcend, to mobilize people to action. He's got a huge coffer and I think that...

SANCHEZ: Sounds like you're saying he's a more formidable opponent. Shelley, is that what you hear her saying?

WYNTER: I hear her saying the same thing and I would agree with everything that she said. I mean, Barack Obama -- if Barack Obama stands in the state in a debate during the general election against John McCain, I think it's a landslide of epic proportions during the general election.

SANCHEZ: Do you guys think this thing is basically done?

SUGG: No.

SANCHEZ: I mean, if you look at the map?

No, John?

SUGG: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Because a lot of experts are saying that.

SUGG: I think Hillary will carry it to the bitter end. And I think she also...

SANCHEZ: But a victory for her is improbable? You agree?

SUGG: It's improbable but she will destroy the Democratic Party before she let's go.

SANCHEZ: Well, your opinion, John. We thank you for it.

A hostage standoff that's caught live on tape. Also, which city leads the way in the whopping three of the deadly sins? We'll tell you which one gets the honor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back as we continue counting down "Forbes" magazines list of America's most sinful cities. Salt lake City is ranked numero uno, the vainest city. Hmmm, who would have think it?

Welcome back, I'm Rick Sanchez. I have more amazing pictures to show you tonight in our "Rick's Picks."

First off, this is a Miami hostage pics. This is the photos -- raw footage that you're looking at right now of what he saw when he arrived at the scene, which happens many times.

I cannot account to that. I can't tell you first -- myself, for being in that situation. Oftentimes, you get there before or as the police are arriving.

Also a small plane crashed into several homes in the neighborhood outside of London on Sunday afternoon, killing all five on board. Scotland Yard is reporting this. No one was on the ground.

He's back. Tonight, this political gem. The man who made tens of thousands of American say hey, who was that guy? During the Democratic debates is leaving the Democratic Party. Senator Mike Gravel is now a libertarian and frightening to be America's third party candidate. That's what he wants to do.

Senator, hey, thanks so much for being with us tonight.

MIKE GRAVEL (L), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Thank you for having me on and giving me new life.

SANCHEZ: You're rejuvenated. You know what I'm thinking. People are probably thinking aren't you supposed to be out there campaigning for Barack and Hillary?

GRAVEL: No way. No way. In fact, I'm going to beat one of them.

SANCHEZ: Are you down on the dumps?

GRAVEL: No, I'm not down on the dumps. In fact...

SANCHEZ: No, no. Not that dumps, the Dems. Are you down on the Democratic Party. And Hillary and Barack specifically.

GRAVEL: Well, more the Democratic Party because essentially they had no respect for my values and those values. I was bit of a maverick, I admit that. But these values are more libertarian values and the Democrats are supposed to have a big tent but not really.

SANCHEZ: What do you mean when you said they didn't have respect for your values? You know, a lot of people made a lot of, you know, jokes about you being, you know, the uncle who is invited to the party and is not afraid to say the things that are not necessarily nice to this that everybody else was afraid to say. Was it that that got you in trouble? Did people not take you seriously? GRAVEL: No. What got me in trouble is talking about the fact that the Democratic Party is very much for the war, just like the Republicans. What got me into trouble was the fact of saying that the Democrats are imperialist just like the Republicans. And if they are supported by Wall Street and the military industrial complex, that's what got me into trouble. And of course, the libertarians buy into what I'm talking about. They want no war. They want no American imperialism.

SANCHEZ: So am I hearing you say that the whole thing is fixed?

GRAVEL: Well, of course, it was fixed from day one. It was the celebrities. They were being anointed by the people who control our society. The military industrial complex. Here, I just want them to answer one simple question. Why is it that we at this country, we spend more money than all the rest of the world on defense when there's not a single country that threatens us?

SANCHEZ: I take it from listening to what you're saying, that you're not big on the surge then as many Americans are.

GRAVEL: Well, not a surge. It's a failure. Just look at what's going on. And they've admitted that there's no way that they are going to get you out of Iraq. I will get you out of Iraq and we will restore stability to that part of the world in a heartbeat.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you something about the surge. Because there's been lot been written about it in the last week. And it seems like really it's about the Shiites getting rid of the Sunnis in Baghdad, which looks more like managing LA street gangs and it does actually military combat. Does that bother you?

GRAVEL: Well, of course, it bothers me. And then we have Petraeus telling the Congress that he was passing out millions of dollars to the Sunnis to try the tribal leaders so that they would camp down their opposition.

And so now we have paid for the arming of the other gang. Little wonder now that they've got the wherewithal to have a civil war. We paid for it.

SANCHEZ: The convention is in May. And you're hoping that the libertarians are going to get together and say, this is the guy who's going to represent us? Why should they do so?

GRAVEL: That's right. And I'm campaigning to get their support to be their nominee and I will give -- and I'll equip myself admirably in their cause.

SANCHEZ: Senator Mike Gravel, always good to have you on. Thanks so much for joining, senator.

GRAVEL: Thank you, Rick, for having me.

SANCHEZ: What a character. We're running out of time for our seven deadly sins countdown. Lucky for us. One city cornered the market on three of them, all by itself. Of course, maybe that's not so lucky for the residents.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: And welcome back. Seven deadly sins. "Forbes" magazine got a little creative and matched American cities to a specific vies. Well here's a quick recap for the ones that we've already covered for you.

Lust, Denver; Greed, Silicon Valley; Vanity, Salt Lake City; Wrath, Detroit with it's higher murder rate. Now, you may have noticed we've got three deadly sins left and less than a minute in our show.

Well, we'll be able to get to it because one city tops the list for envy, gluttony, and sloth. Which city is that? Memphis, Tennessee. The country's most sedentary city is also apparently the country's most obese. That takes care of gluttony and sloth. As for envy, Memphis, with all its property crimes wins that spot.

My thanks tonight to our panel. Give a wave, guys. Appreciate it. John, Shelley, Loretta, and Neil Boortz of the extension now. We thank you all. And we'll keep doing it. We'll keep bringing you the news as we run it down for you every weekend. I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us.

Hi, everybody, I'm Rick Sanchez in the CNN NEWSROOM. Coming up now, a special "LARRY KING LIVE; Beatles Extravaganza."

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