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Nancy Grace
Police Await Autopsies for Four Dead in Pennsylvania Home/Parents Pick Prayer Over Medical Care
Aired March 31, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: They sat by and prayed while their little girl suffered and died. Though they`re not attached to any specific religion and claim they`re not, quote, "crazy religious people" and have nothing against doctors, they sat by for a solid month while the child wasted away, went into a coma and finally died untreated for a simple and curable malady, type 1 diabetes. Is this extreme child abuse shrouded in religion? Tonight, 911 calls capture relatives on tape begging -- begging! -- for medical help.
And bombshell. We learn tonight exactly what police confiscated from the home -- computers, insurance papers, HMO cards, first aid books, a syringe with medicine in it. And tonight, the on-line evangelist they contacted (INAUDIBLE) preaches that doctors are extremely dangerous, even deadly.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Now just feel by her nose and see if she`s breathing...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) air.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK! Is she breathing? Is she breathing? Is she breathing? No, she`s not!
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) She`s not breathing! OK, she`s not breathing!
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Dale and Leilani Neumann confidently told them their daughter, Madeline, would live because prayers so they decided not to seek medical attention for an obvious medical condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how long she had been bedridden, but likely there would have been signs of this for -- for about six months. She would have been symptomatic for at least a month.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they found out about Madeline`s critical condition from a phone call from a relative in California who the Neumann family had contacted for more prayers.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister-in-law is -- her daughter is severely, severely sick, and we believe now she`s -- she believes her daughter is in a coma. And she`s very religious, so she`s refusing to take her to the hospital.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police say by the time they arrived at the home, Madeline had passed away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: A 4-year-old boy saved in the nick of time, literally at the last minute, the 4-year-old weighing in at just 10 pounds before he was rescued. But don`t worry, Mommy never missed a meal, and I`m sure she`s having a lovely dinner tonight. Behind bars!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mom`s behind bars after cops say she nearly starved her son to death, the 4-year-old weighing just 10 pounds when hospitalized. Authorities say Erin Brittany Marsh (ph) deprived her son of food and medicine. Santa Rosa sheriffs say when the boy was admitted to the hospital, he had a temperature of only 91 degrees and had bed sores on his body. Erin Brittany Marsh now jailed on charges of felony child neglect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, stunning evidence emerges in the case of a little girl who wastes away to nothing, slips into a coma and dies from treatable type 1 diabetes. Tonight, the parents who refused to call a doctor hide behind their religion while police confiscate the parents` HMO cards and insurance papers!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard the 911 call from a relative in California who originally alerted police to Kara`s situation.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister-in-law, she`s very religious. She doesn`t -- she believes in faith instead of doctors. And she called my mother-in-law today. And we`re all in California. And she explained to us that she believes her daughter is in a coma now, and she`s relying on faith to...
911 OPERATOR: So this person that`s in a coma is not in a hospital, she`s at home?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the 911 call placed minutes later from inside the Neumann home.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Let me know if she starts breathing again, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Did you try the two breaths?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) OK. (INAUDIBLE) Keep breathing into her mouth. Keep breathing into her mouth. Breath into her mouth.
911 OPERATOR: She`s breathing now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they`re still just beginning to determine if the course of action the parents took was reasonable or if more could have been done to save their daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My understanding is that the mother still believed that their faith was -- that she could be revived (INAUDIBLE) which isn`t the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But first, live to Pennsylvania. Breaking news. Four bodies, including a mother and toddler and two other adults, found dead in a living room -- and a bedroom of a home, extremely unusual, because even after the autopsy, the cause of the four deaths still cannot be determined. This is post autopsy. We still don`t know why four dead bodies found dead in a Chester, Pennsylvania, home.
Out to Larry Miller with "The Philadelphia Tribune." Larry, thank you for being with us. What are the circumstances surrounding these four dead bodies? I can`t believe that even after an autopsy, we still don`t know CoD, cause of death.
LARRY MILLER, "PHILADELPHIA TRIBUNE": Well, to tell you the truth, this is a huge mystery right now for the Chester Police Department. The bodies were found in the second floor apartment in different rooms. It would be the 900 block of Keystone Road. With three adults, one child. All the adults were in their 20s. There were two adult women, one adult male. Police have been able to find no signs of forced entry, no signs of physical trauma to the bodies. And the first thing they ruled out was carbon monoxide poisoning.
So far, the autopsies have been, quote, "inconclusive," end quote, which at this point means that the police just haven`t determined -- the medical examiner, in other words, has not determined exactly what the cause of death is. So they`re doing a toxicology study in hopes that this is going to explain the exact cause of death.
GRACE: Joining us is Larry Miller from "The Philadelphia Tribune." Larry, I believe I heard you say that they were on the second floor of the home. It`s like a row house situation. Could you tell me -- nobody downstairs or next door heard anything?
MILLER: No, from what I understand, the police haven`t found that information yet. There was a -- it`s an apartment. It`s a row house. There was an apartment on the first floor. This is an apartment on the second floor. One of the victims lived on the first floor, and the second -- two other victims, a male and female, who were -- had a relationship, they lived on the second floor apartment.
GRACE: OK, let me get this straight. For some reason, I had presumed, possibly incorrectly, they were all part of one family. But you`re telling me that some of them lived on the first floor and some of them lived on the second floor, correct?
MILLER: That`s right.
GRACE: Go ahead.
MILLER: Well, the -- we`re withholding the names of the victims until we get absolute confirmation at this point. One of the victims was a female. She had a 3-year-old son. She lived on the second floor. And another female and her fiance lived on the first floor.
One of the family members hadn`t heard from the female, the mother of the 3-year-old boy, hadn`t heard from her daughter since Friday, called the Chester police to do a wellbeing check. On Saturday, about 7:30, the police entered the apartment and then they found the victims on the second floor.
There are surveillance cameras in the apartment, around the area, so the police, of course, are checking those, as well. But at this point, it`s just one huge mystery. They don`t really have a lot of information that they`re releasing to the public.
GRACE: With us is Larry Miller from "The Philadelphia Tribune." Larry, was there any sign of forced entry into the home?
MILLER: No, the police found no signs of forced entry, no obvious wounds as far as the physical trauma whatsoever.
GRACE: Do you know whether the doors were locked when police got there?
MILLER: I don`t have that information confirmed at this point. This is still information that the police -- they`re only releasing just a little bit of information to the public at this time. And of course, the press, were having a difficult time getting confirmed information in terms of exactly what type of condition the apartments were in. But they aren`t saying a lot at this point, only that there was no signs of forced entry. And of course, they`re taking all -- oh, there was no signs that the apartment had been ransacked, either. But they`re taking all the evidence, even a child`s a sippy cup that had juice, and they`re testing, of course, for toxicology for that, as well.
GRACE: We are bringing you the breaking news right now out of Chester, Pennsylvania. Four bodies found in a row house there, second floor. One is a toddler, one is the toddler`s mother. The other two we believe are a couple that lived below them on the first floor.
I want to go out to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health from Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Makary, thank you for being with us. Explain to me -- it`s very unusual -- even after autopsy, we still don`t know cause of death. I mean, right off the top, Dr. Makary, that tells me it was not a gunshot wound, it was not a stabbing, it was not a strangulation, be it manual or ligature. What are we looking for?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: You know, this case is incredibly perplexing because of the toddler. Otherwise, if you have a bunch of 20-year-olds together, drugs and alcohol are by far the top of the list. But for a toddler to be involved has really posed a difficult question here. Carbon monoxide would explain it all, but you need to have a vehicle close by without good ventilation. So really, it`s extremely puzzling.
GRACE: Before we take you out to the little girl who died in a diabetic coma while her parents prayed, we are bringing you breaking news out of Chester, Pennsylvania, four bodies found in one apartment. What`s unusual -- another thing unusual about it -- to Vince Velazquez, homicide detective, Atlanta -- Vince, they were in different rooms of the apartment. What does that suggest to you?
VINCE VELAZQUEZ, ATLANTA METRO HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, Nancy, it could mean that, you know, whatever was ingested -- and until we get the toxicology back, we really won`t know. And I do agree with the doctor, the fact that there`s toddler involved in this thing does not suggest that, you know, it`s a night of perhaps drinking vodka and taking medication perhaps. So it`s very puzzling. And the fact they`re all in one apartment and they live in different apartments suggests that something was going on and they were all together at some point. And you know, the toxicology is really what we`re going to -- you know, we really need to know...
GRACE: Yes.
VELAZQUEZ: ... once that comes out.
GRACE: I want to go back to Larry Miller with "The Philadelphia Tribune." Larry, is there a possibility -- are they investigating whether they were poisoned?
MILLER: Absolutely. At this point, there`s a lot of speculation in terms of what could have happened. They`re, of course, testing for poison, different types of poisonings, even speculation that this might have been a suicide attempt of some kind. From what I understand, they haven`t found any notes or anything. But again, they haven`t released a lot of evidence publicly at this point, so...
GRACE: You know, that would be a very, very difficult to imagine scenario. To Dr. Robi Ludwig. I mean, we`ve seen various cults where the leader of the cult would actually convince people en masse to commit suicide. But these are people that apparently are not religiously affiliated. They simply lived one above the other. You`ve got a toddler, a mother and then another couple. The cause of death completely unknown, even post-autopsy right now. I find it very difficult to believe it was just a suicide.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No, but that was my first thought. Could it be a suicide? Are they experiencing -- or were they experiencing some financial difficulties? I mean, these are very financially tough times for many folks. People are in danger of losing their homes. People are really struggling. So one would need to rule out, was this some type of kind of perverse answer for a family that was really depressed and struggling?
GRACE: Back to Dr. Marty Makary. Dr. Makary, very quickly, before we go on to our next story, could you tell me what the doctor would be looking for if you were looking for death by poison or death by carbon monoxide?
MAKARY: Well, basically, a generic toxicology screen is done for any rare substance that builds up with any significant. The problem is, you can`t test for arsenic and some rare poison that comes from a Chinese plant, for example. You can`t test for everything. So that`s why this is very frustrating.
GRACE: But with arsenic, there are other symptoms. For instance, the mouth would have a bitter smell. The fingernails on the fingers have a certain discoloration with arsenic poisoning. I mean, there different ways to determine death by poisoning than just toxicology.
MAKARY: Absolutely, and they`re going to look closely at the stomach and the intestine to see if the nice smooth mucosa there is damaged, and that means that there`s probably something, even if they don`t know what it was, that poisoned them.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Michael in Missouri. Hi, Michael.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, Michael?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I just had a question about meth. You know, we`ve been hearing a lot of meth labs. And was just wondering, did -- was there any past history of the adults using meth?
GRACE: Excellent question, Michael. It got to a point when I was prosecuting, whenever there would be a big fire, I would wonder if they were cooking up some meth in the kitchen.
To Larry Miller with "The Philadelphia Tribune." What about the possibility of meth, methamphetamines?
MILLER: The police haven`t released that information at this point. But from what I understand, they haven`t found evidence of drug use. But that`s just at this particular point. As I said, this is...
GRACE: Did you say they have not, or they have?
MILLER: They have not, at this point.
GRACE: Have not. Oh. Makes it even more of a mystery. We`re bringing you breaking news out of Chester, Pennsylvania, four bodies and a very unusual mystery. We don`t know if it`s murder, natural causes, homicide, suicide. We do know that there was a mother with a toddler, and then another adult couple all found in one apartment upstairs, in different rooms of the apartment, and no visible signs of trauma to the bodies. We`ll take you there as soon as we hear more.
Right now, we are switching gears and heading to Wisconsin. A family stood by and prayed while their little girl died of treatable type 1 diabetes. And tonight, they are hiding -- I`ll put it out there. They are hiding behind their religion. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK. You need to tell me...
(CROSSTALK)
911 OPERATOR: Try to calm down, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Did she -- did she respond to the breaths at all?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. No. I don`t think so.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she respond to the breaths? Did she respond?
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t think so.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What I want you to do -- is she lying flat on her back?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes (INAUDIBLE) OK! Here he comes! (INAUDIBLE) Here he comes! They`re here!
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Over here! Over here! Over here~! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK. The officer is going to come in and do CPR, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. I`m going to let you go, all right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Thank you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, the hysteria, the screaming, the crying -- they had, according to the autopsy doctor, the medical examiner, 30 days to save this little girl`s life. What did they do? They did nothing. They prayed. Now we learn tonight that police confiscated the parents` insurance papers and HMOs. They weren`t afraid of doctors or medical practice, they just didn`t want to take their doctor. (SIC)
To Matt Lehman with WSAU Newsradio. What`s the latest?
MATT LEHMAN, WSAU NEWSRADIO: Nancy, good evening. The latest is that police are still investigating this case. They are trying to determine whether criminal charges should be filed, and they are still conducting interviews. As part of their investigation, they want to have all of their paperwork, all of their interviews done before they send the case on to the district attorney`s office for review.
GRACE: Is it true, Matt, that a syringe was found? I`m looking right now at an evidence list of what was taken from the home -- liquid contents in a syringe, the syringe itself, HMO cards, insurance papers, all types of books on vitamins, vitamin side effects, chiropractic books. Tell me, is it true? This doesn`t seem like the parents were afraid of doctors or did not believe in doctors, according to their religion.
LEHMAN: Nancy, police seized a lot of evidence during -- when they executed a search warrant on Friday -- when they executed a search warrant last week. You`re right, they recovered some insurance papers. They also recovered some personal diaries, some of the thoughts that the parents had shared specifically, and those police detectives are reviewing those documents right now. They also recovered a computer that is being analyzed at the state crime lab in our state capital of Madison.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK. What I want you to do -- is she lying flat on her back?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. (INAUDIBLE) OK. Here he comes! Here he comes! They`re here!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Marathon County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?
911 OPERATOR: Marathon County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 9807 Maplewood.
911 OPERATOR: Maplewood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t hear you.
911 OPERATOR: We have an ambulance, the fire department and an officer responding to your place. Do you need something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A girl is not breathing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They did not know that she had diabetes. We discovered that after her death during the autopsy that that was her cause of death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Their big defense is they didn`t know their daughter had diabetes? Well, maybe if they had taken her for a routine physical for the last eight years they may have known she had diabetes!
Out to the lines. Steven in Ohio. Hi, Steven.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just first want to say I love you so much. I love how straightforward you are. I just want to say, there`s no way these parents shouldn`t be charged. If I let my dog die after 30 days of watching her get worse, I`d be charged with animal cruelty. (INAUDIBLE) child endangerment out there.
GRACE: You know, Steven, you are so right. And the more I investigate, the more I find out. I find out that instead of calling a doctor, the parents call an evangelist, an on-line evangelist. And not that there`s anything wrong with that. I`m happy they`re praying. I want them to pray~! But I wish they had prayed on the way to the doctor.
I want to go very quickly -- Eben Brown, why no charges yet?
EBEN BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, because the police have not finished their investigation. They have confiscated a lot of things from the house, mainly these HMO cards. And one question they`re probably going to ask is why did these parents, who are self-employed, who owned a coffee shop, didn`t work for anybody else -- why do they have health care if they don`t believe in doctors?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: She`s not breathing, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don`t think she`s (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Now, what I want you to do is tilt her head back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tilt her head back. Tilt her head back. OK. Tilt her head back. Put your head by her mouth. Tilt her head back.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK. Now just feel by her nose and see if she`s breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: (INAUDIBLE) air.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is she breathing? Is she breathing? Is she breathing? No, she`s not! (INAUDIBLE) She`s not breathing! OK. She`s not breathing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) investigation reveals that she didn`t receive any medical treatment. Her parents decided that they would pray over her and that their faith would heal her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, if you go to the Web site of this on-line evangelist -- I believe it`s Unleavened Bread is the name of it -- they contest the little girl had been sick for 30 days. I don`t know how they would know that, since they`re somewhere far, far away from this family. But according to the medical examiner, Eben Brown, investigative reporter, he says she was wasting away for about 30 days, that she would have been having these symptoms, Eben.
BROWN: Yes, that this had been going on for quite some time. It`s a slow process. It begins when the diabetic is not getting their proper care. It begins with general lethargy and general feeling sick, nausea and whatnot. Eventually, the person goes into a coma and wastes away, but it takes a very long time for this to happen. And in the case of this girl, it took a month.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN, 911 DISPATCHER: Sheriff`s Department. John.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Hi. I called a little while ago. I believe I talked to Stacey. My -- hold on. My sister-in-law is -- her daughter is severely, severely sick and we believe now she is -- she believes her daughter is in a coma. And she is very religious so she`s refusing to take her to the hospital. So I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there or something?
JOHN: Can you go over it again since I don`t know what you talked about with Stacey. You`re going to have to tell me everything.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK.
JOHN: You`re reporting what? Keep it simple for me if you can.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Sorry. My sister-in-law, she`s very religious. She doesn`t -- she believes in faith instead of doctors. And she called my mother-in-law today and we`re all in California. And she explained to us that she believes her daughter is in a coma now. And she`s relying on faith to.
JOHN: So this person that`s in a coma is not in a hospital. She`s at home?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: She`s at home and she`s 11. So what we don`t know she told us she believes she`s in a coma. So I got the address finally so.
JOHN: What`s the address?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: It is 9807 Maplewood Drive.
JOHN: Town of Weston?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: They have not taken their daughter to the doctor since she was 3 years old, but they have insurance papers and HMO cards? They own their own coffee shop so they had to go out of their way to secure HMOs or insurance coverage for themselves or employees.
Out to the line. Kathy in Maryland. Hi, Kathy.
KATHY, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
KATHY: I`ve had -- I have had type 1 diabetes for 32 years and first of all, this is a very painful way for this young lady to die. Second of all, we have taken longer than 30 days for her to head downhill so fast, in others, I would speculate that she`s actually had diabetes longer than 30 days.
Is there anybody that could have picked up on this? A neighbor, somebody at school, one of her friends? She would have been going downhill much longer than 30 days.
GRACE: Kathy, they had taken her out of school. They were home- schooling her. But you`re right. The symptoms are much, much more protracted and this type of death is extremely painful by all accounts. In fact, the medical examiner who performed the autopsy said that she looked malnutrition. She was so incredibly thin. Literally wasting away.
I want to unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, New York, Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Seattle, Anne Bremner.
What about it, Susan Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If these parents had medical books and medicine but drew the line over calling an ambulance, they don`t have a prayer of staying out of jail. I -- let`s look at the facts. The facts are they ultimately did call 911 but only when it was too late.
GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I -- Nancy, God is in the details in this one. I mean, it`s not a question of whether they felt closer to the hospital or closer to God. The question is, there`s a statute in Wisconsin that says, if you believe in the power of prayer, you can rely on that and you won`t be subjected to this statutes. And that`s what they did. And the fact is, they are very religious. And when she was critical, they went to the doctors. And you know, it`s a real tragedy. The purist form of love is parental love for a child.
GRACE: I don`t believe, Alex Sanchez, that Wisconsin statute is going to protect them when the child dies.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I do. That`s a major impediment any prosecution here, Nancy. Because if they are brought to court, they`re going to point to that statute, which is over 100 years old in Wisconsin, and say, listen, you know, I`m allowed to prayer. I`m allowed to invoke God.
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting that you pointed out it`s over 100 years old, because a much more recent U.S. Supreme Court rulings, in Funkhauser versus Arizona says you can`t sit by and pray while your child dies.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but this is under the state of Wisconsin, Nancy. And the issue.
GRACE: The last time I looked, Alex Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: Let me tell you.
GRACE: .the state of Wisconsin was still part of the union and U.S. Supreme Court still has jurisdiction over Wisconsin.
SANCHEZ: It does but.
GRACE: I don`t know what you`re talking about.
SANCHEZ: The state of Wisconsin has not fully resolved this issue. And since it`s not fully resolved the parents.
GRACE: Well, the U.S. Supreme Court has.
SANCHEZ: The parents have a legitimate defense in this case, and that is to invoke that statute which still stands on the books, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what? Alex, I don`t know why you can`t say with a straight face and just tell the truth. Take off your defense hat for one moment and admit that when the U.S. Supreme Court rules against a statute, that statute is, for all intents and purposes, stuck down.
SANCHEZ: Well, they have other defenses in this case also, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh really? What?
SANCHEZ: Well, the defense -- the primary defense they have in this case is that they did not intentionally try to hurt this child, that they`re primary intention was to try to heal this child, by doing it through prayer. Now that may be misguided.
GRACE: Really?
SANCHEZ: But that was their intention in this case.
GRACE: Well, Alex, what if a child is run over by a bus and the parent stands by the side of the road and prays the child, with two broken legs, can crawl off the street? Is that OK?
SANCHEZ: You know, no, I don`t agree with that, Nancy?
GRACE: Well, yes, you don`t. Then why do you agree with this?
SANCHEZ: Because these people are religious. Their intention was not to hurt this child. Their intention was to help this child.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa.
SANCHEZ: Were they misguided? Yes, they were.
GRACE: Don`t throw a stone as those who are religious who believe in something greater and more wonderful than ourselves. That`s not what this is about. These people had HMO cards, they had insurance papers, they had a syringe full of what we believed to be medicine. They weren`t afraid of doctors by their own admission.
SANCHEZ: Well, then, what was their motivation, Nancy?
GRACE: I don`t know, I`m asking you on their defenses.
SANCHEZ: Well, I don`t know what their motivation are, but if they had all these items, then why did they not take the child to the doctor? Why did they stand there and pray. We know this is a religious family because they had other relatives calling up he police and confirming the fact.
GRACE: You know what? The reality is this, Alex Sanchez, for about the first, I don`t know, seven years I prosecuted felonies, I would look over at the defendant in court and think why, why had you caused so much pain to so many people? But according to Funkhauser versus Oklahoma, it doesn`t matter.
Out to the lines, Lorraine in New Jersey. Hi, Lorraine.
LORRAINE, NEW JERSEY RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question to you is, if any of the family members or the neighbors suspected anything, could they have gotten in touch with social services and had them stepped in to stop this before it got to this point?
GRACE: Well, Lorraine, the answer is yes, if the neighbors had suspected anything. But having taken the child out of public school and home-schooling her, I don`t think she came in contact with that many people. The family owned this coffee shop but, diabetes doesn`t have an outward symptom. The parents would have known she was sick. But if someone had just seen her sitting at the coffee shop, they would not have known.
Back to Matt Lehman with WFAU Newsradio, did any of the neighbors notice anything unusual or this prayer group that came in to the home?
LEHMAN: Nancy, from our reporting, no, we have not noticed. We cannot say whether that`s the case. The 911 call -- one of the 911 calls that you`ve heard, though, are from friends of the Neumann family. The friends were over there. We don`t know why, perhaps to help, and the 911 call where you hear the dispatcher leading them through CPR. The woman who made that call was the friend of the family. So, again, it remains unclear why they were there, but certainly they knew something was up and they had called for help.
GRACE: My understanding, Matt, they were there to help pray.
I want to go a special guest joining us tonight, Shawn Peters. He is the author of "When Prayer Fails." He`s a University of Wisconsin scholar.
Shawn, I`m not sure that I agree with you that prayer ever fails. We may not get the answer we`re hoping for. But I don`t know that that necessarily means that prayer has failed, but in any event, Shawn Peters says that the district attorney has a hard decision. I don`t think there`s a hard decision, Shawn. Why do you believe there`s a hard decision to make?
SHAWN PETERS, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN SCHOLAR, AUTHOR OF "WHEN PRAYER FAILS": I believe in referencing some of the matters your other guests have spoken about, I think that it goes back to Chapter 948 in Wisconsin`s statute governing crimes against children. It does reference specifically treatment through prayer.
And Nancy, as you know, prosecutors do have a wide range of discretion. I`m going to be curious to see and having looked at hundreds of these cases myself what happens. Is it going to be abuse? Is it going to be neglect? Is it going to be manslaughter? Or is it going to be nothing? I think that I have seen throughout the last 150 years that these have -- there have been a variety of approaches that have been taken.
And to go back, you mentioned the Funkhauser case, and I -- my understanding is that Funkhauser was resolved by an Oklahoma state court. So I`m not.
GRACE: It went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
PETERS: Yes, I`m not aware of that at all and I`ve looked at a lot of these cases. Be that as it may, I think that it`s -- it will be a complex matter. Jill Falstad is the D.A. in Marathon County, and she`s an experienced prosecutor. She`s been an attorney for 20 years and -- she seems capable of handling it.
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JOHN: So you want me to send an ambulance over there, right?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Please. I mean I don`t -- she`s refusing. She`s going to fight. She`s going to fight it because she -- we`ve been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week -- a few days now. So.
JOHN: I`ll get somebody going.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. Wonderful. Thank you so much.
JOHN: Thanks. Bye, bye.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Did you get the address?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes. 9807 Maplewood Drive. Correct?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you know how to do CPR, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes, can you hear me?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Do you know how to do CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. I don`t know. Nobody here is doing it. Nobody`s doing it -- anybody?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 9807 Maplewood Drive, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Philip in Alabama. Hi, Philip.
PHILIP, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Hello, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: What`s your -- thank you. What`s your question, dear?
PHILIP: My question is, are they other children in the home? And do they have a heavy insurance policy on the child? And how long will they get in prison?
GRACE: To Eben Brown, investigative reporter, I understand there are other children?
EBEN BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: There are. There are some siblings. They have been removed from the home shortly after this happened. Police removed them from the home. They stayed under the care of social services. They have now been placed with other relatives and they`re not with the parents right now.
GRACE: What do we know about possible insurance policies?
BROWN: All we know so far is that the family had some sort of health insurance policies. A regular -- you know, doctor visits type care of an HMO.
GRACE: Life insurance policy.
BROWN: But nothing in terms of -- we haven`t heard anything yet about a life insurance policy for this child, no.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Michelle in Missouri. Hi, Michelle.
MICHELLE, MISSOURI RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Hi. I was just wondering if they would be questioning the kids to see if they really did do prayer with the girl whenever, you know, there was not other people around or if this (INAUDIBLE) or what?
GRACE: I`m sorry, I couldn`t hear you. Could you repeat that, dear?
MICHELLE: I just want to know if they are going to be questioning the other children of the home to see if they really did do a lot of prayers.
GRACE: What about it, Eben Brown. What do we know?
BROWN: Well, we don`t know much. This is an ongoing investigation. Police have interviewed these children. Social services has interviewed these children. And like you said, they have been removed from the home. So when charges are finally filed and all this police investigation comes out in the public, they will know exactly what these kids had to tell the cops.
GRACE: To Alice in Arizona. Hi, Alice.
ALICE, ARIZONA RESIDENT: Hello. Thank you. You do such a wonderful job tonight. I have two quick questions.
GRACE: All right.
ALICE: One of them, I think, has already been asked. My first one was, since the parents are self-employed, were they experiencing any financial difficulty. And then the second one was just asked about a life insurance policy, if there have been one, would they been -- be the beneficiaries of it?
GRACE: Eben Brown, do we know about financial problems?
BROWN: We don`t know much about this. But in terms of those HMO cards, these were -- you know, they had to go out and get this self- insurance. They did not work for somebody where this just came along with their job, like, if you work for an employer, sometimes, you know, you can get health insurance through your employer. They had to actually go out and sign up since they were the owners of this business, this coffee shop.
GRACE: I want to go back to Shawn Peters, the author of "When Prayer Fails." He`s a University of Wisconsin scholar.
Shawn, again, thank you for being with us. I wanted to go back to Funkhauser, which the Supremes heard in 1989, originally coming out of an Oklahoma court. If it were just Oklahoma, that would have no bearing whatsoever on a Wisconsin case, so how will the Wisconsin court treat this?
PETERS: Well, if -- Nancy, if your reading of Funkhauser is right and it`s a broad ruling, that sort of strikes down all of these religious exemptions, then it should be fairly easy.
GRACE: I agree, but what has Wisconsin done over the recent years, Shawn? Because I find it very difficult to believe that they would allow this type of behavior even after the Supremes ruled on Funkhauser.
PETERS: Well, it`s interesting, Nancy. We had a case in 2004 involving a failed exorcism. A minister basically asphyxiated a boy.
GRACE: Oh Lord.
PETERS: .during a botched exorcism, and that case was only charged as physical abuse of a child. It wasn`t charged as manslaughter. And obviously the circumstances are somewhat different than the case we have now in Weston. The minister in that case received 30 months and 7 1/2 years of probation. So if you look.
GRACE: Very quickly.
PETERS: Absolutely.
GRACE: Hold on one sec, Shawn. With me, Shawn Peters from University of Wisconsin, a scholar.
Back to the lawyers. Alex, Anne, Susan.
To Anne Bremner, what do you the defense will be?
BREMNER: Well, I think it will absolutely be about the power of prayer. But Nancy, the Funkhauser case didn`t strike down a statute. There`s 38 states that have some more statutes and, of course.
GRACE: This -- as I stated earlier, strictly with Oklahoma. All right?
BREMNER: Right, Nancy. But I know you stated earlier, though, Nancy, that it would apply in this case and it doesn`t.
GRACE: I think it will.
BREMNER: The fact the statute is still here. I disagree, especially with you. But I just heard.
GRACE: The statute in Wisconsin I don`t believe has been challenged in this manner. But my question was.
BREMNER: Well, but Nancy, you said.
GRACE: .what was the defense?
BREMNER: Well, that`s -- this is the defense. But you said earlier that the Supreme Court struck down the statute and they haven`t. The statute is there.
GRACE: I`ve said.
BREMNER: The statute is there. It`s an absolute defense for them. And don`t forget, Nancy, in this case, the child was not critical until 911 was called. So this is a slow death, a slow deterioration. And death.
GRACE: This is a slow answer. Let`s switch gears very quickly. I want to take you to our next case before we go to break. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement has arrested 19-year-old mom Erin Brittany Markes after they say she neglected her 4-year-old son nearly to the point of death. The boy admitted to the hospital weighing just 10 pounds and severely dehydrated without needed medication and severe bed sores. Investigators say the boy was admitted to the hospital with a temperature of just 91 degrees. The mom is behind bars as the 4-year-old boy fights to live.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: A special guest joining us, Sergeant Scott Haines, the spokesman for Santa Rosa Sheriff`s Office. This is one of the most shocking cases I`ve ever heard. My twins, who are not even five months old yet, sergeant, one is 15 and one is 17 pounds. This is a 4-year-old boy that weighed 10 pounds?
SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SPOKESMAN, SANTA ROSA SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Yes, it`s a very disturbing case and it is one of the worst cases of neglect that we have dealt with with our agency.
GRACE: Sergeant, the mother claims she didn`t know about the bed sores on the child, that she had been giving him his medication. What about his food, sergeant? And where is she tonight?
HAINES: She`s still in the county jail on a $100,000 bond. The child does have a severe handicap from birth and does have a lot of medical issues, but there`s no reason that the child could not have been adequately given food. There was a feeding place -- or a feeding tube in place and the child is actually doing better since hospitalization.
GRACE: To Andrew Gant with the "North West Florida Daily News," Andrew, what was her excuse for not giving the child nutrition?
ANDREW GANT, CRIME REPORTER, NORTH WEST FLORIDA DAILY NEWS: Well, her reasoning was that she just wasn`t prepared to be a mother. She was -- she was receiving about $600 a month in Social Security checks and I believe -- I think she made $100 to $200 per week in babysitting. And she just wasn`t ready to be a mother at a young age.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For DCF to step in and say that she`s, you know, neglected him is not true. She`s given it her best shot. She needs more education and she needs help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Sergeant Scott Haines, spokesperson with the Santa Rosa Sheriff`s Office.
Sergeant, what is she facing? What type of a penalty could she face?
HAINES: Well, it`s felony neglect charges so she is facing prison time if convicted.
GRACE: And her excuse, sergeant, was that she felt she was too young to be a mother?
HAINES: She made a statement such as that she could not adequately prepare -- she wasn`t adequately prepared. She said she wasn`t doing her best.
GRACE: Doing her best?
HAINES: The evidence -- yes. That`s what she stated.
GRACE: Sergeant, I mean, the baby weighed 10 -- a 4-year-old weighed 10 pounds.
HAINES: Absolutely. And the evidence definitely show.
GRACE: Had she missed a meal? Was there any evidence she had ever missed a meal?
HAINES: I don`t believe there was, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what, sergeant? How do you do it? I look back on the years I prosecuted and in retrospect, I don`t know how I did it. How do you do it when you see a 4-year-old -- thank God you got to save his life, but how do you do it? How do you go to work the next day?
HAINES: It`s very difficult. The investigators did a great job with this. And if you would see the pictures of this child, it`s horrific. There was absolutely no -- muscle or fat tissue on the child.
GRACE: She`s not going to get him back, is she? Is she -- will get him back?
HAINES: No, the child right now is -- no, the child right now is in the custody of Department of Children and Families and.
GRACE: OK.
HAINES: .we`re expecting the baby to be discharged a little later this week and put in some type of a hospice care.
GRACE: With us, Sergeant Scott Haines as well as Andrew Gant.
Gentlemen, thank you.
Let`s stop and remember Army Private Dewayne White, 27, Country Club Hills, Illinois, killed, Iraq, while on a second tour. He loved poetry, dance, cartoons, playing pool. Leaves behind wife, grandparents, parents, six brothers and sisters. A step family also.
Dewayne White, American hero.
Tonight a special thank you to the U.S. Air Force. We are so proud you`re one of our sponsors. Thanks to our guests, but most of all to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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