Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Former NBA Star Owes Thousands in Child Support
Aired April 07, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: An NBA superstar rakes in millions playing right alongside Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, Scotty Pippin, wins two -- two! -- diamond-encrusted NBA championship rings, and he`s a deadbeat dad. The father of at least 10 children with at least 8 women owes hundreds of thousands in child support. Tonight, records reveal the NBA star owns multiple businesses, day care centers, sports bars, living the high life, but tells all the women he is broke.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NBA star Jason Caffey reportedly has 10 different children with at least 8 different women and hasn`t paid one cent of child support. Caffey made as much as 5 million bucks a year during his rise in the NBA. In that time, according to one of the women`s attorney`s, Caffey owes an estimated 100 grand to his client alone for failure to pay child supporter. Caffey already spent time in jail for failure to pay child support, and now it appears he`ll be spending more time in jail after a judge issued an arrest warrant for Caffey`s refusal to pay for his kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Incredible.
And tonight: An underage girl makes a desperate and secret call, claiming she was forced to marry a 50-year-old man and give birth, Texas authorities raiding a 1,700-acre compound, rescuing over 130 women and 400 children, literally hauled off by the busload, the victims cut off from society, kept under heavy high-tech surveillance, unable to even make eye contact with volunteers. That one phone call brings down the biggest child protective bust in U.S. history. How? How did it happen right under the nose of Texas authorities?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Child Protective Services has now taken temporary legal custody of 401 children. We have provided information on all of those cases, and the judge has made a determination that there is significant risk of harm or these children are indeed victims of abuse or neglect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of the volunteers that have been working with these people over the last few days have told us that in many of these cases, these children were terrified, that it`s been very difficult to see the vast number of teenage girls that are pregnant, that are mothers, as well. State`s investigators say that they believe that there still might be more children inside this compound. They are still searching this 1,600-acre ranch and will probably do so for quite a few more days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: An NBA superstar rakes in millions wearing his two diamond-encrusted NBA championship rings. Records reveal he`s living the high life, while in truth, he`s nothing more than a deadbeat dad, 10 children by 8 women that we know of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jason Caffey was known for making moves on the basketball court, but his latest opponent is a judge in a Georgia courtroom, and the judge wants to have him benched for failing to pay child support.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NBA star Jason Caffey owes child support payments to at least six different women, payments totaling more than $300,000. Court documents show Caffey was making at least $5 million a year at the height of his NBA career but wasn`t paying for any of his kids. Caffey currently has a warrant for failure to pay child support in Georgia. He served jail time last year in Alabama for refusing to help his kids. According to one of the women`s attorneys, Caffey filed for bankruptcy last year and says he`s broke, while the women in his life say Caffey hasn`t paid child support for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And not only is there no child support, there`s no relationship with the children, either. The monetary and psychological damage done to all of these children -- this is just the tip of the iceberg. In fact, we had to actually make a flow chart -- a flow chart! -- of all the women and all the children this guy has, raking in millions, and now he`s in court as a deadbeat dad.
Out to Brendan Kirby with "The Press Register." What`s the latest?
BRENDAN KIRBY, "THE PRESS REGISTER": Well, the latest is -- of course, as you know, Jason Caffey filed for bankruptcy last year, claiming that he couldn`t meet his obligations. And when we talked to him last year, he was quite up front about the fact that he filed for bankruptcy because he wanted to get the arrest warrants off of him. He had already spent some time in jail. Well, actually, I guess he actually filed the bankruptcy first and then was jailed in...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold on, Brendan Kirby. I want to add something to the timeline -- Brendan Kirby joining us from "The Press Register."
Out to the attorney for one of the mothers of his many, many children, Penny Douglass Furr. Very quickly, Penny, there`s a little something left out of that timeline. This guy goes to bankruptcy court, trying to get protection and not have to pay all these women he owes money to. But isn`t it right after you go into court demanding money for one of his children?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, ATTORNEY FOR KAREN RUSSELL: Nancy, my client went in with her Alabama attorney in Tuscaloosa. The judge found him behind, ordered him to pay child support and be jailed. Prior to his being jailed (INAUDIBLE) writ of arrest issuing, Mr. Caffey filed for bankruptcy protection.
GRACE: So you take him into court, you haul him into court, trying to get child support payment. How much did he owe your client, Penny?
FURR: He owes my client almost $100,000.
GRACE: Oh! Ouch! And how old is that child?
FURR: Fifteen.
GRACE: Fifteen years old. Has he ever had a relationship with the child?
FURR: He did not see the child for 10 years, Nancy, and never invited the child to a basketball game. It`s a very sad situation.
GRACE: Well, did the little friends of the child know this guy`s daddy is an NBA star?
FURR: My client has tried to protect the child, and most of them do not know.
GRACE: So long story short, no relationship, no money.
Out to the lines. Cynthia in Ohio. Hi, Cynthia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. Love you.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for calling in, too. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I wanted to start off by saying I`m the director of child support in Butler County, Ohio. And what we do is we took wanted posters, downsized those and placed them on pizza boxes in our county. They were quite successful. And I guess my question is to other child support agencies throughout the United States. Why aren`t they doing more as agencies, like putting more liens on property? You can put them on cars, boats, houses. You can take license away, not just driver`s license, but real estate. You can take law license away. You can do all these things. And this guy`s out there running around, Jason Caffey. How? How is that happening?
GRACE: You know, I want to go back to Penny Douglass Furr. Have you -- what about liens on his property? What else can you do to get the money? This guy owes hundreds of thousands of dollars to 10 -- at least 10 children that we know of.
FURR: Nancy, he`s taken the position that once he`s filed for bankruptcy, he`s protected. He`s not even paying post-petition (ph) support (INAUDIBLE) support to my client, at least, from the time he filed the bankruptcy. So all of that stops, and you can`t collect anything. He`s protected by the bankruptcy court.
GRACE: I want to go out to Dr. Ned Holstein. He`s the executive director of Fathers and Families. What about it, Dr. Holstein? What do you say?
DR. NED HOLSTEIN, FATHERS AND FAMILIES: Well, Nancy, nice to be on the show. And what I have to say is that all this talk I`m hearing is about money, money, money. What we have here is a guy who paid money when he had it. He doesn`t have the money now, he can`t pay it. He`s been -- one of the mothers, Nikki Brown, said, When he had the money, he always paid me.
What this is really about is about a father who`s made some very big mistakes, has had all these kids, and this discussion ought to be about what these kids need. And what they need is a father who can stay out of jail, continue to earn money and pay whatever he can pay, instead of an iron fist system that wants to put this guy in jail for being, basically, a naive fellow who thought the good times would go on forever.
GRACE: Dr. Holstein, you referred to one woman, correct?
HOLSTEIN: I did.
GRACE: Have you spoken to the other eight?
HOLSTEIN: Well, of course, I haven`t been a detective...
GRACE: OK. Well, you know, what? Let`s...
HOLSTEIN: But what I can tell you...
GRACE: ... do that...
HOLSTEIN: ... is this is a man who`s paid about 95 percent...
GRACE: Really?
HOLSTEIN: ... of all of the child support...
GRACE: Let`s do that right now.
HOLSTEIN: ... that he has had due over the years.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Karen Russell. She is the mother of Caffey`s first child. Karen, thank you for being with us. When is it that you met Caffey?
KAREN RUSSELL, MOTHER OF CAFFEY`S FIRST CHILD: I met Jason in college back in 1992.
GRACE: So you knew him before he was an NBA superstar?
RUSSELL: Yes.
GRACE: And how old is your son?
RUSSELL: Fifteen.
GRACE: Has he ever paid child support?
RUSSELL: Yes.
GRACE: And is he paying now?
RUSSELL: No.
GRACE: How long has it been since he paid?
RUSSELL: About two-and-a-half years since he last paid.
GRACE: How much does he owe?
RUSSELL: About $100,000.
GRACE: Have you asked him for the money?
RUSSELL: Yes.
GRACE: And what did he say?
RUSSELL: Initially, he told me he put all of his finances into his businesses that he started up in Mobile, Alabama.
GRACE: So what are these businesses?
RUSSELL: He has a day care. He has a bar or a nightclub, and I`m not sure what other businesses he owned at the time.
GRACE: I want to go back out to Brendan Kirby with "The Press Register." A string of day care centers, a sports lounge that is pretty busy. I`ve done research down in the Mobile area. That place is packed, especially on the weekends. Where`s all the money going?
RUSSELL: He also has a real estate development company, where he`s done some real estate investment, as well.
GRACE: Real estate investment? In what?
RUSSELL: In property.
GRACE: So back out to you, Dr. Holstein. Did you know about all these ongoing businesses that are raking in the money, and he`s not paying his child support?
HOLSTEIN: Well, he`s making $11,000 a month from all these allegedly multi-million-dollar businesses, Nancy, and he`s paying out about $7,000 of that. What I hang this guy for is having 10 children by all these different mothers. But as far as the money goes, everyone`s here on a feeding frenzy...
GRACE: A feeding frenzy? It`s been years since he`s paid child support, sir.
HOLSTEIN: It`s been a couple of years. And what he did do is pay child support for about 10 years. So when he had the money, he paid it. And that means he`s paid about 95 percent of all the child support he`s ever been supposed to...
GRACE: What about it, Penny?
HOLSTEIN: ... pay, but they`re going to put him in jail for the last 5 percent that he has not paid.
GRACE: Penny, go ahead.
FURR: I`m looking at a writ of arrest that was issued in 2000 when he was making several million dollars, another writ of arrest in 2005 when he made over $6 million. And in 2001, he was $29,000 behind in child support. All these years, he was an NBA star.
Out to the lines. Brigette in New York. Hi, Brigette.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you! You rock!~ And your babies are absolutely gorgeous!
GRACE: I`ve got a new picture tonight. I trekked on down to Babies `R Us (ph) and got a family...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God bless you, girl!
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen -- they are gorgeous. Listen, I am so tired of these NBA stars and rock stars, and you know, movie stars that get away with paternity. They get away...
GRACE: I`m tired of it, too. And what I don`t understand is how you can go for years without paying child support.
Out to Randy Kessler. He is the attorney for Lorunda Brown, another lady that has a Caffey child. Randy, how long has it been since he paid?
RANDY KESSLER, ATTORNEY FOR LORUNDA BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) total in the last four months. But I want to mention, Nancy, that what Penny said was right. She went to court to try to get him thrown into jail. We were in court in January of 2006 -- I`m sorry, January 2007. He owed $70,000. He promised a judge he would pay that within a month. He was going to sell a house. He signed an order saying, If I don`t pay by February 23, 2007, throw me in jail -- 2007, February 23 came by. He didn`t pay. The judge issued an order that he was to go to jail.
But what was more important to my client is the health insurance. She`s got a little 5-year-old boy that has no medical or health insurance, and this guy had all the resources to be able to do that. And if he had paid a little bit here and there, she never would have hired me. When he didn`t pay three, four, five, six months in a row, she had no choice.
And $4,000 a month is more than a lot of people need, but if he would pay $500 here or $1,000 there -- these women really did the right thing by not filing a lawsuit until it really built up. Unfortunately, that`s why it`s hundreds of thousands of dollars because they all waited and waited and waited, and now it`s enormous.
GRACE: Out to Jon Wertheim. He`s a senior writer for "Sports Illustrated." It`s a real pleasure to have you on, Jon. Thank you for being with us. What about Caffey`s basketball career? I know, to my knowledge, he`s got two NBA diamond-encrusted championship rings. I know that he was a fourth-round draft pick. What more can you tell me?
JON WERTHEIM, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Well, I don`t know if he was a superstar, but he was a serviceable NBA player, nice long career, as you mentioned, a couple rings, which means there was probably some playoff bonus money in there, too. He actually -- I don`t know if this is relevant, but he actually is known also -- he had a -- some mental health issues, took some leave for social anxiety disorder. But you know, it is stunning that somebody who played as long as he did, number of teams, is in this situation.
GRACE: Yes, he was with the Chicago Bulls, the Golden State Warriors, the Milwaukee Bucks. This guy made a ton of money. And here`s video. This is from the NBA of former basketball star, Jason Caffey, that`s him, playing with the Chicago Bulls -- the Chicago Bulls, an incredible franchise.
Out to the lines. James in North Carolina. Hi, James.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good evening, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is -- now, I know that the NBA recently has been going through a lot of scrutiny as far as what`s going on with their players. Do you think that he will receive any support from the NBA or any outside source in order to compensate these families?
GRACE: What about it, Jon?
WERTHEIM: Well, he`s probably eligible for a pension. You know, the NBA has some funds for distressed players, but they`re usually older, before the big money era. I`m not sure delinquent child support makes him, you know, particularly a charitable case.
GRACE: If they did get it from the NBA, the NBA would go broke in a heartbeat with all the people lined up for child support from NBA stars. Take a look at Caffey. He played for three major, major teams here in the U.S., Chicago Bulls, the Golden State Warriors, the Milwaukee Bucks.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss out of New York, Peter Schaeffer and Nancy Yamini out of LA. Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If procreation is your sport, you better get ready to pay some support or you`ll be looking at a judge in court. Let me explain something. He`s got 10 children. If he doesn`t pay his support payments and these people become public charges, it`s you and me who are going to support his 10 children. There has to be a zero tolerance for deadbeat dads, and this is where we`re going to start.
GRACE: Peter Schaeffer?
PETER SCHAEFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is a case in bankruptcy court now, Nancy. He owes more than he has. These child support payments are going to be protected in the bankruptcy court. So I think it`s case closed. If you think you`re going to get money out of him by putting him in jail, I`ll tell you from personal experience, you don`t collect money from people in jail.
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting that you`re going along with the bankruptcy protection. As soon as Penny Douglass Furr takes him to court, within a month, he goes and files for bankruptcy. Well, read that bankruptcy code, Peter Schaeffer, because bankruptcy does not protect you from child support payments. What about it, Nancy?
NANCY YAMINI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Peter, Nancy. You know, putting someone in jail doesn`t take care of child support. He`s going to go in jail. He`s not going to be able to pay anything...
GRACE: What about all the years -- the decades he wasn`t in jail? He was only in jail for a couple of months on child support. He`s out. He`s back out, driving his big car, getting a $50,000 loan from his mother, living in his fine house, being king of the city down in Mobile, Alabama. So what are you talking about? What protection does he need? Why doesn`t he go get a job like everybody else?
YAMINI: He does have a job. But if you heard the woman, he did pay when he was an NBA player. And he...
GRACE: Did you hear the lawyer, Nancy? Did you hear the lawyer, Penny Douglass Furr, go back over all the years he hasn`t paid child support?
YAMINI: I did hear the lawyer. And you know what? He filed for bankruptcy, and you know, he should have filed a motion with the court to get his -- his -- the money that he pays these women lowered. And you know, once he did that, then he could start paying his women a little less than the judged had declared in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jason Caffey was known for making moves on the basketball court, but his latest opponent is a judge in a Georgia courtroom, and the judge wants to have him benched for failing to pay child support. Caffey declined an on-camera interview, but he did tell us the amount of his child support payments are based on the $5 million salary he made while playing in the NBA. He retired five years ago and doesn`t make the money he once used to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jason Caffey was known for making moves on the basketball court, but his latest opponent is a judge in a Georgia courtroom, and the judge wants to have him benched for failing to pay child support. Caffey declined an on-camera interview, but he did tell us the amount of his child support payments are based on the $5 million salary he made while playing in the NBA. He retired five years ago and doesn`t make the money he once used to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, for all I know, he`s making more. He has a string of businesses, day care centers, sports bar, you name it. But the mothers are getting nothing. What if the mother said, Well, I`ll feed the children when I get a little money? No child support. He gets hauled into court to pay child support. He immediately runs to federal court and tries to file a bankruptcy proceeding to protect his money.
And back to Jon Wertheim, senior writer for "Sports Illustrated." You brought up that he had a societal disorder and anxiety. Could you explain to me how he managed to disperse his sperm all over the country if he has some type of societal disorder? He certainly isn`t shy.
WERTHEIM: No, but this was a mental illness. I think, to his credit, this is something in sports, in this macho culture, that doesn`t get commented on much. He actually took a leave of absence. I mean, you`re right, a social anxiety disorder sounds sort of funny in this respect, but...
GRACE: Yes, it certainly does, Jon. It certainly does.
So Penny, explain to me how your client got a warrant issued on her after she goes to try to get child support money.
FURR: Well, she didn`t get a warrant...
(CROSSTALK)
FURR: ... the warrant issued for Mr. Caffey. The court went forward with the arrest warrant, and my client was sued for violating the bankruptcy stay.
GRACE: So in other words, if they go after him for the money, she gets in trouble with the bankruptcy court?
FURR: That`s it.
GRACE: How much money do they want from her?
FURR: At least $40,000, and they`re having another hearing...
GRACE: You`re kidding me!
FURR: ... for her to pay more.
GRACE: They want the mother to pay him $40,000 and he owes her how much child support?
FURR: About $100,000, Nancy.
GRACE: And this is from the federal bankruptcy court where?
FURR: In Mobile, Alabama.
GRACE: OK. I hope that you judges are watching there in the Mobile, Alabama, bankruptcy court tonight. We`ll be right back. We`re taking your calls live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He owes her about $100,000 right now. If he had just paid part of what he owed (INAUDIBLE) she got nothing from him for a long, long time. It`s been about a year since he`s even paid her a penny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: He was an NBA superstar and now owns a string of businesses. He is also a deadbeat dad.
Out to the lines. Larry in Illinois. Hi, Larry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t this more the woman`s fault than the man`s? They saw this as a business opportunity and it was wrong. They failed.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! What now? Why is it the woman`s fault? I got to hear this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is more the woman`s fault than it is the man`s.
GRACE: Because?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They saw this as a business opportunity and it failed.
GRACE: OK. You know, that`s an interesting -- an interesting point. I want to go back to a lady joining me now tonight, the mother of Caffey`s first child. When you met him, you were both college students, right?
RUSSELL: Yes, that is correct.
GRACE: And so how would this have been a business opportunity for you?
RUSSELL: It wasn`t. We were both just college students.
GRACE: And you`re working full-time now, right?
RUSSELL: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: As a?
RUSSELL: In part (ph) as parts specialist for a chemical company.
GRACE: So do you ever think, I can`t afford to feed the baby, so I`ll just let it go without?
RUSSELL: No, I haven`t in the past, but once I get this resolved, I`m going to walk away. I`m not going to pursue it anymore.
GRACE: So how stunned were you when you get a bill from the court for $40,000 -- 40 large -- for him, when he`s the one that owes you the child support?
RUSSELL: I was flabbergasted. I can`t believe that the court system would allow him to pursue me.
GRACE: Everyone, when we come back: A single secret phone call from a terrified underage girl brings down a massive secret compound now knee-deep in child molestation charges, 130 women, 400 children rescued, all right under the nose of Texas authorities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 401 children inside the compound that state authorities and child abuse investigators say they believe they have enough evidence to show that either some of these children had been abused or faced the threat of abuse. So over the next two weeks, they will begin laying out the process and laying out legal documents to show to a judge here in west Texas. And they hope that this judge will rule that all of these children would qualify to be taken away from this compound and from the parents who are the members of this polygamist sect and be put into foster homes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: That`s video of buses literally hauling off 401 children, 133 women from a 1,700-acre compound in Texas. It all came about from one desperate and secret phone call from an underage girl.
Out to Paul Anthony with "The San Angelo Standard-Times."
Paul, what happened?
PAUL ANTHONY, REPORTER, SAN ANGELO STANDARD-TIMES: Well, I`ll tell you, this girl called, Nancy, as you know, last weekend and complained that -- at least told officials that she was 16, had an 8-month-old child, and she was married to a 50-year-old man. A couple of days later, dozens of Texas rangers, state troopers, sheriff`s deputies from number of different counties around here raided this compound about 45 miles south of here close to Eldorado, Texas, and yesterday began shipping busloads of girls that they`d taken out over the last four days here to San Angelo to the building right behind -- the building right behind me.
They said today, there`s 401 children, 133 women with them. A number that I can tell you surprised everybody in that room. All the reporters, and I think probably all the CPS officials as well. Nobody expected that many children to be on that ranch.
GRACE: Paul Anthony, I`m just looking at the video of all those little girls in their long dresses being put on those buses and been taken away. You know, let`s see, they look like they are 6 or 7 and about seven or eight years, they`d be married off to some old man and having children themselves at age 14 and 15.
How did this go so long under the radar of Texas authorities, Paul?
ANTHONY: It`s been suspected for a long time. Obviously, there`s been legal action taken in Arizona and Utah against members of the same sect. Obviously, the former leader, Warren Jeffs, is in jail right now because of allegations relate to these kinds of activities. The Texas authorities, without any kind of evidence, just couldn`t have anything to go in there. They couldn`t just raid it on a whim. They finally had a complaint that they could go in on.
I`m hearing a lot of credit being given to the local authorities down there, just like the county sheriff David Doran, for keeping thing peaceful over the last four years with this sect and that allowed this whole raid to actually go down peacefully, and not turn it into another Waco, which I know a lot of people here, of course, have been talking about for the last few days.
GRACE: You know what, you`re right. You`re right about Waco. Horrible, horrible over something very similar to this. It could have all gone wrong. Paul, in a moment, in one moment, it could have all just blown up.
Out to the line, Katherine in Colorado. Hi, Katherine.
KATHERINE, COLORADO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. If everyone knows that they`re living there, why haven`t authorities stepped in earlier?
GRACE: You know, I`m confused about that, Jim Kirkwood.
Jim, joining us, he`s the host with KTKK. It`s been going on for a long time, but you have to have a reason for a search warrant.
JIM KIRKWOOD, NEWS SHOW HOST, KTKK: Yes. And the long history of this group and similar groups in this area is this type of abuse, horrific treatment of women and children, third-world living conditions, and the leaders of these sects becoming very wealthy and powerful.
GRACE: What do you mean by third-world living conditions?
KIRKWOOD: The women and children, literally, have to make their own clothing. They have to garden.
GRACE: Well, hold on, hold on, Jim Kirkwood. We made our own clothing, too, growing up.
KIRKWOOD: Nobody does anymore, though.
GRACE: Well, that wasn`t that long ago, but thanks. Go ahead with the third-world living conditions.
KIRKWOOD: I`ve dealt with these people a long time. I have seen this group dumpster-diving for food before the grocery stores change their dumpsters. So you couldn`t access them, I mean, for vegetables, old vegetables, things like this. It`s an unbelievable situation, the poverty and then the leaders become millionaires, hundred millionaires.
GRACE: You know, I don`t understand how all these children, 401 children, 133 women lived there, and none of the women, Susan Lipkins, ever thinks, gee, I`ll take my children and leave the compound.
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "PREVENTING HAZING": They`ve been indoctrinated. To them, it`s a religion. To us, it`s a cult. But they believe everything that`s been told to them, and they believe that their men are the ones who are in charge of them and they`re like slaves. They must follow them and they do not trust outsiders. That`s the first thing that they`re taught. And that`s why it will be very difficult to get the specific information from these kids. And I think that the person who reported was a really brave person breaking the code of silence.
GRACE: Back to that single phone call that brought down the biggest child protective raid in U.S. history.
Paul Anthony joining us from the "San Angelo Standard-Times." Tell me about the phone call. Who did the girl call?
ANTHONY: Well, authorities aren`t releasing that information pending, obviously, the continuing investigation and, obviously, not wanting to put the girl at any risk. And they haven`t yet identified her and don`t know whether or not they actually have her here at Fort Concho in San Angelo.
What we do know about the call is that there was a call that was on Saturday to authorities and according to the D.A.`s office here in Tom Green County, it was not a 911 call. The girl called twice, once on Saturday, once on Sunday, and said that, as I said before, that she was married to a 50-year-old man and had an 8-month-old baby. They did the math back. She was 15 at the time the baby was born, and in Texas, you can`t even get married with parental consent at age 15.
GRACE: You know what`s a disturbing fact about what you just said, Paul Anthony, joining us from the "San Angelo Standard-Times," Paul, is that they`re not sure they`ve got the distressed phone call victim, the girl that called in. How many girls do they have that are married and giving birth by force at age 15?
ANTHONY: You know, that`s a good question. We do know that of the 401 girls, many of them, you know, are pregnant. Nobody`s saying how many for sure, but, you know, just observation says that, and many of these girls are the infant children of the teenage girls. So it`s really just hard to tell. Also, what CPS people are saying is that one of the big problems they`re having is that because of all the intermarrying, a lot of the names are the same, identical even. The names change almost on a whim. So not only do they have a hard time picking out which teenage girl has the infant child, but -- you know, what name she`s using at this point.
GRACE: Paul, what exactly is their religion? I know they had about 125- foot cross on top of the compound. Very, very disturbing. But what is sit, exactly?
ANTHONY: Well, about 100 years ago, they broke away from the mainstream Mormon Church, when the Mormon Church renounced polygamy. Basically, they believe that they are following in the true footsteps of those who founded the Mormon Church. Obviously, the Mormon Church, you know, disavows any connection to the FLDS, as called them, you know, Fundamental Latter-Day Saints.
Basically, they believe that they`re following that true Mormon faith, you know, and everything it entails, including polygamy.
GRACE: OK. I want to go back out to the lines. Mike in Massachusetts. Hi, Mike.
MIKE, MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Big fan of your show. Thank you for having me on.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
MIKE: I was just wondering, do you know how many men there were on the ranch like.
GRACE: You know, I was just getting to that.
Paul Anthony, I keep hearing about all the women, all the children. Where are the men? I don`t see any of them being hauled off. And who`s the leader of this thing? Have they arrested him?
ANTHONY: They have not arrested him. The leader at the ranch is believed to be Merrill Jessop. He`s actually filed a -- his attorneys on his behalf have filed here a motion to quash any -- the search warrants that are being served at the ranch as we speak. He has not been arrested. There`s only been one arrest at the ranch since and they`re releasing the name. I don`t believe it`s anybody important there.
There is an unknown number of men there. Nobody really knows how many people are on the compound. It`s amazing, most of the estimates had fewer people at the compound than they`ve actually removed so far.
GRACE: To Laurie Allen, producer of "Banking On Heaven." Laurie, how can you have a 1,700-acre compound, this many women and children where girls are being statutorily raped and forcing to be married and giving birth as teens, and think you can get away with it?
LAURIE ALLEN, PRODUCER, BANKING ON HEAVEN, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: Nancy, what we`re seeing today is the product of 100 years of gross negligence on the - - in the state of Utah and Arizona, where we could coat the highways with the sweat and blood and tears of these polygamists that are all over the southwest. And Texas today, thank God for Texas, that they have the cajones(ph) to get up there with one complaint and move in on those corrupt people that are -- men that are abusing women and children when Utah and Arizona have turned a blind eye to this problem for 100 years.
GRACE: With me, Laurie Allen, producer of "Banking On Heaven."
Everyone, thank you again for your prayers and your -- kind thoughts for the twins. I want to share with you our photo. I trekked them straight down to Babies "R" Us and got this shot over last this weekend. There are a few others. I`m going to post them on the Web tonight. I hope you like them.
ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The most burning question here in west Texas, where is the girl? Of course, this massive law enforcement operation began when a young girl, a 16-year-old girl, mother of an 8-month-old child, placed a phone call from inside that FLDS compound, claiming that she had been forced into a polygamist marriage with a 50-year-old man and that man had fathered an 8-month-old child with that girl. The girl also said that man had physically abused her. That was the impetus allowing Texas law officers to enter the compound with a search warrant.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: 401 children, 133 women literally hauled of in buses saving them from this -- 1,700-acre compound, a sect where the women were forced as young girls to marry much older -- marry much older men and give birth.
I want to go out to Scott Haines, sheriff`s officer at Santa Rosa County, Florida.
Officer, it`s amazing to me this whole thing didn`t blow up like Waco, but my question now is, how do you question some of these adult women that are indoctrinated to believe outsiders are the devil?
SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA CO., FLA.: Nancy, one of the big problems they`re going to have is getting their trust. These people are not -- they`re not willing to necessarily do that. They`re fearing retaliation. They`ve seen it in the past. They`ve seen other people from that sect being retaliated against. So that trust needs to be built up so they feel comfortable and know that they`re going to be safe and protected.
GRACE: And another thing, how do you pull of a raid this big? It`s the biggest one in U.S. history.
HAINES: It`s huge. The manpower out there has to be incredible. They have a lot of agencies working together. And from what I understand, they had almost preplanned this out in case they ever did have to go in there, because they couldn`t go in there until they received a tip of allegations of abuse. So I think that.
GRACE: Which answers a lot of questions. That answers a lot of questions, Scott Haines. People were wondering why it wasn`t done sooner, I wondered that, too. But I`m thankful it didn`t go up in flames like Waco did.
Joining me also tonight, Pennie Peterson, women and children`s activist. She`s a former FLDS member.
Pennie, thank you for being with us. What do they teach you as a young girl?
PENNIE PETERSON, FMR. FLDS MEMBER, WOMEN & CHILDREN ACTIVIST: Well, you were taught to obey the man, obey the father, obey the priesthood, and, you know, above all obey your husband. So the men rule the community and no questions asked. That is your.
GRACE: What do the girls believe will happen to them if they don`t?
PETERSON: That they will go straight to hell and lose their salvation and won`t be welcome in the kingdom of God.
GRACE: To Laurie Allen, producer of "Banking On Heaven," a former FLDS member, do you believe any of the women are going to cooperate? What do they think about outsiders?
ALLEN: Well, you know, what I heard today from my sources is that 60 of the women volunteered. They were given an option to stay or leave and they chose to leave. Now I don`t know if they left because their -- they want to be with their children, or if they left because they want to get out. I don`t really know for sure yet. But I need to clarify that, not from the FLDS, I was raised in a violent -- Liberian polygamist sect. My uncle was the Mormon man, he killed over 30 people.
So -- but I was raised in another polygamist sect. I went to school in Colorado City when I was a child and my grandparents met in Colorado City and I have a lot of relatives in that town. But I was not raised specifically in the FLDS. I need my.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall. He`s a board-certified forensic pathologist. Doctor, here`s my question. Some of the young girls, many of them, actually, are forced to marry and procreate with relatives. What type of dangers do that post?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, all of us have a few bad genes, a few bad genes from mom, and a few bad genes from dad. As long as there`s no match, we get along just fine. But if mom and dad are genetically close, then the chance of a match at one of those bad genes is increased. And of course, that`s bad.
GRACE: Dr. Arnall, very quickly, CPS says they`re having trouble actually identifying the kids. The interchangeable names, they`re all inter- related. Will DNA be able to help?
ARNALL: DNA is the way they`re going to do this, plus they can look at the ages of the kids. They may look at the paper trail, tax records, and welfare records to see who they should be looking for and what age groups.
GRACE: You know, Jim Kirkwood, he brings up an interesting issue when he said welfare -- Jim joining us from KTKK. There`s a huge government payroll. All these women are on -- a lot of them are on government assistance.
KIRKWOOD: Yes, they are. In fact, a local polygamist leader was sued about 20 years ago for $300,000 and some dollars for what they could prove.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Peter Schaffer, Nancy Yamini.
Weigh in, Susan.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If young girls are made to have sex with old men, their next ranch will be the state pen. I mean under the cloak of religious freedom, we don`t allow human sacrifice and we do not allow statutory rape. There is no excuse and luckily there is no defense.
GRACE: Peter Schaffer, what`s the defense?
PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I don`t even know that a crime was committed here. Three days they`re searching this compound, they haven`t found the so-called reporter of this incident, Nancy. The whole thing was preplanned.
The state of Texas had changed the law to -- the age of consent and raised it two years ago in response to this group of people. So this smells like a pretext. They were waiting. They had this thing planned out and now what you call saving 400 people I call kidnapping because they don`t find this religion palatable.
GRACE: Thanks.
Paul Anthony, what about it?
ANTHONY: State officials are kind of keeping a pretty close wraps on things to try to protect the girls with, but they say that there was -- it`s a complaint-driven assault, is all what they`re saying on the ranch.
GRACE: So Nancy Yamini, do you agree with Peter Schaffer that it`s a big conspiracy by the Texas authorities? They waited years to do it and you`re buying into that.
NANCY YAMINI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know if I buy into that, but, I mean, he certainly does have a defense of freedom of religion here.
GRACE: Freedom of religion. Does that include statutory rape, Nancy Yamini?
YAMINI: No, it does not. But freedom of religion, I mean, if his religion believes in bigamy, then he could certainly -- it`s not a winnable defense, Nancy, however, it certainly is a defense, the bigamy.
GRACE: Well, you`re right about that, it`s not winnable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To HEADLINE PRIME`s Glenn Beck. Hi, friend.
GLENN BECK, HOST, GLENN BECK SHOW: Reconquista. That is the rallying cry of crazies in Mexico and the United States now. There`s an active movement to reclaim the entire American southwest from Mexico. Now you just might be surprised as to who`s jumping on that bandwagon. It`s Absolute Vodka. Oh, yes.
We`ll have more of the sane details coming up in just a second.
Then the GOP is looking for a VP candidate. Some reports are saying Condee Rice wants the job. Others are saying Mitt Romney can`t have the job. And Bill and Hillary Clinton love to donate money to Bill and Hillary Clinton.
More on that, next.
GRACE: The biggest child protective bust in U.S. history goes down in Texas.
Out to the lines, Erica in Alabama. Hi, Erica.
ERICA, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
ERICA: I want to say I love what you do and people like me really appreciate it.
GRACE: Miss Erica, thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?
ERICA: Yes. Some of the women on the compound, could they be charged or held accountable of knowing about the sexual abuse?
GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Susan Moss. When the mothers know about the abuse that is being heaped upon their children, can they be charged?
MOSS: Absolutely they can. Accessory to the fact. They may have a head enough down defense. We`ll see if it works.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Drew Weaver, just 20 years old, St. Charles, Missouri, killed, Iraq. Enlisting straight from high school, loved adventure, helping others in need and loved getting care packages from home. Leaves behind grieving parents Brian and Dianne, brothers Tyler and Jeff, serving the Navy, and best friend, Ryan, serving the Marines.
Take a look. Drew Weaver, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but as always, our biggest thank you is to you for inviting us and our little stories into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
