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Nancy Grace

Polygamist Women Leave Children, Return to Compound

Aired April 16, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: A single desperate and secret phone call from a borrowed cell phone brings down the biggest child protective bust in U.S. history, 416 children, 139 women literally hauled off by the busload. In a stunning turn of events, the mothers actually leave the children behind, voluntarily returning to that secluded compound, all claiming they were misled by Texas authorities. But the authorities say they even had to confiscate the moms` cell phones to stop intimidation and witness tampering. Teens given pregnancy tests, the so-called plural wives stonewalling police. Are they choosing polygamy and the husbands they share with each other over their own children?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Female members of the polygamist sect, separated from their children since Monday and now back on the Yearning for Zion ranch coming forward to plead for the return of their children. But when they were asked about alleged child sexual abuse and whether 14 and 15- year-old girls get married, the women refused to respond.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The complaint that the state has is they felt these children were in danger of being forced into marriage at ages 16 and younger, the girls in particular. And that`s why they moved in (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you saying that...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No force. No force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, do women age 16 and younger marry out here? Is that common?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just want the children back. That`s all we`re talking about tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This young woman named Sarah (ph), who called in with the complaint, does she exist? Do you know who this is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. We do not know who she is. I have never even heard of her in my entire life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what she`s alleging, that her husband forced herself on her and beat her?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is not alive. There is no such person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you think this came from, if it did not come from someone who lived at this compound?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone that has...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone who...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... once lived here and been mad and turned against, a traitor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight: Tumble dry takes on a whole new meaning. A Missouri woman and her live-in lock her two little children in the family clothes dryer and turn it on. Well, maybe the perps will get their own laundry duty -- behind bars!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Temperatures inside a dryer can soar around 165 degrees Fahrenheit. And tonight: Two small children, just 8 and 10 years old, allegedly placed in a dryer by their own mother and her boyfriend, 29- year-old Nicole Everhart (ph) and 26-year-old Steven Ray (ph) facing felony charges of child abuse and neglect. A criminal complaint describes harrowing details of what police say happened the day Everhart`s two children were tumble dried. It also details accusations of physical and emotional abuse and drug possession. And as if being placed in a dryer wasn`t enough, we learn the two children made to stand outside in their underwear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. In a stunning turn of events, over 100 mothers leave their children behind to return to a secluded Texas compound. They blame Texas authorities, but are they choosing polygamy and the husbands they all share with each other over their own children?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mental health professionals are analyzing whether the women of the Yearning for Zion ranch have been brainwashed. After tearful pleas to be reunited with their children, the women giving expressionless denials to tough questions about alleged abuse and underage marriages. Meanwhile, officials have separated the children, still in shelters from their mothers, saying children give more honest responses when their parents aren`t present.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no force here. Everyone has their choice. There is absolutely (INAUDIBLE) There is no force. And we want the children and they want us. They are clean and pure, and this is the worst thing that has happened to them. They are learning terrible things just from the questions that are being asked, things that they have never been exposed to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Are they choosing polygamy and the husbands they all share with each other over their own children? Straight out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, joining us there in Texas. Sean, what`s happening.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let`s back up just a bit because the authorities with Child Protective Services moved in just a couple days ago, and they tried to separate the mothers of children who are 5 years and older away from those children. You know, Nancy, that it would be very unusual for CPS to move in, take children away from a family and then allow the mothers to be with those children because if there are abuse allegations, the first thing authorities try to do is take children out of the abusive environment.

But because this is really uncharted territory, what authorities in Texas tried to do was to first keep the mothers who wanted to stay with their children with their children. However, over the weekend, it became clear that a number of the mothers of that sect, FLDS, were calling people on the outside, and Child Protective Services got a legal action to come in, take the cell phones away. And at that point, they removed mothers who had children 5 years and older.

Those women had the choice. They could either to go back to what is known as the YFZ ranch, where members of the sect, lived, or they could go to a safe house. But the story even takes a twist at that point because I went out to the compound on Monday, went in and talked to a number of the people there. They say that all of the women who were offered that choice came back to the ranch. However, Child Protective Services says that`s not the case, that six women chose to leave that sect and are now in a safe house. So that`s the latest information we have on how that played out.

GRACE: Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, joining us there in Texas. Also with us tonight in San Antonio, Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, it just seems to me that even being in a safe house closer to your children is better than going back to the compound and being that far away from them in that secluded ranch.

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, if they go back to the compound, they subject themselves to the lives they`ve been living for years, which includes beatings, rapes, strangulation, starvation. Would you want go back to that type of environment? I wouldn`t. I`m not surprised some of them tried to stay away.

GRACE: Well, only -- no, what I`m saying is only six of them, according to Sean Callebs, stayed behind in the safe house. And it seems to me if my children were right here, I would stay as close to them as I could, rather than go back to that compound.

BOARD: Well, they`ve been brainwashed. There`s a -- you know, a huge degree of just mental -- they`ve been working on these women mentally to try to conform them to their way of life. They`ve been told that they need to come back here, so they`ll come back here. If they were told to go someplace else, they`d go someplace else.

You`ve seen these women. They`ve been programmed to be like Stepford wives and say the responses they`ve been told to say. So it`s no surprise they`re doing and they`re saying what the leaders of this ranch are telling them to do and say.

GRACE: You know, Pat Saunders, clinical psychologist, joining us -- and everybody, we`re taking your calls live, including Sean Callebs and Michael Board standing by there in Texas. You know, Patricia, out of all the years I`ve worked with battered women, all the years I`ve seen cases similar to this, I`m still confounded that women would choose, in this case, husbands they share with each other over their own children!

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this is a cult, Nancy. It`s different than your regular domestic violence situation, where people view the world...

GRACE: I disagree, Patricia! Yes, I agree it`s a cult, but the bond of motherhood with your child -- I don`t care, you know, what your religion is or -- none of that has anything to do, in my mind, to the relationship you have with your child.

SAUNDERS: I agree with you. But in a cult, the belief system that people have been indoctrinated into says that this is the word of God, that their first allegiance is to the group, that God will take care of their children, and that doing otherwise means that they`re in league with the devil. How can you argue with that?

GRACE: Out to the lines. Yolanda in West Virginia. Hi, Yolanda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, where is the men during all of this? I`ve never seen the men. I`ve only seen the women. Another question is, if these children have been brainwashed and tricked into believing that this is the social norms and culture of their system of belief, will they turn on this cult?

GRACE: What about it, Sean Callebs?

CALLEBS: Well, the men are out there. You know, it`s interesting -- that`s a great question. That`s a great question because this has all been well choreographed by members of the YFZ ranch. We went out there. We went into a gate. The men were there. They had a pre-selected group of women, I would say somewhere between 20 and 25. The women would talk with us on camera, the men were very distant. I did speak with a number of them off camera, but we couldn`t get any to speak with us on camera.

And secondly, that`s also a good point about what about -- what are these children taught? They are taught from a very early age to avoid outsiders, to not only distrust them but to be fearful of outsiders, as well as the government.

So another thing that`s going on right now, Nancy, is when these children are being interviewed by caseworkers and by investigators, they are apparently using a degree of deception, if you can believe that. One day, they`ll say, Well, that`s my mother, that`s my father. The next day, they`ll say, That`s my mother, that`s my father. They`ll give different names. They`ll give different ages. And since birth records are extremely hard to come by, it`s been quite an unwieldy task for investigators trying to get a grip on what`s going on with 416 children, many younger than 5.

GRACE: You know, it`s very interesting -- to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, it`s my understanding that once you birth a child, very often, the child is given over to a group of women to raise. They don`t necessarily acknowledge just their birth mother as their mother, they think they`re all their mother.

BOARD: Well, it just goes to show how -- how, you know, screwed up this group is. Take, for example -- Nancy, you know, you like hugging your child. What if you were told, No, no, no, that`s wrong, you shouldn`t hug your child? You say, Well, you know, that`s all I`ve ever known is hugging my child. And if someone comes in and tells you, No, that`s not right, they don`t know really know right from wrong. It`s a different world. They live in a whole different universe than you and I.

GRACE: Well, you know, the last time I looked, Renee Rockwell and Randy Zelin, ignorance of the law is no defense. I`ll get right back to the lawyers, but first, I want you to hear it from some of the women themselves. Take a listen to what they had to say on GMA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They took my little 7-year-old girl. They lied to us. They (INAUDIBLE) lied. And she told me a few days ago, she said, Mother, all they do is lie. They`re just telling us lies and lies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What lies?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said they tell us one thing and then do another thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say that we`re...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say we`re going to be together and they don`t let us be together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do 14, 15, 16-year-old girls get married here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are talking about our children right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand, but does that happen here? Are 16- year-old girls married to older men here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We -- this is about our children.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s about our children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you share a husband with many other wives?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I care not to answer that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is sacred to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I take that to mean you do share a husband with other wives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It may or may not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is life like here? I don`t think people can comprehend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know the definition of Zion?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heaven on earth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe you live in heaven on earth?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. This is what I choose. It is heaven on earth to me. I am not abused. I am not brainwashed. I am a living person. I have a hard time making CPS realize this. I am a human being with a heart. I am not abused. I have only been loved, worked (ph) with. My husband has been the most patient man in the world with me, loving me and helping me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I got news for her. If she`s sharing a husband, she`s violating the law. I don`t care how she believes she`s living in Zion, the law is the la. And you`re seeing clips from ABC`s "Good Morning America." This is the first time some of these women in that Texas polygamist compound, just raided, speak out. The sect members emotional while they`re talking about their children, but clearly, they`re dodging all the questions about underage girls being forced to marry much, much older men. I`m talking girls 13 and 14 with men up in their 50s.

I want to go back out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, and Michael Board. Let`s dig in and take some questions. Out to Ty in Washington. Hi, Ty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Hi. I love the show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I was just wondering, is it possible that any of the mothers will face charges?

GRACE: You know, that is an interesting question. Before we go back out to Sean and Michael Board, let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Randy Zelin. As far as I`m concerned, Renee Rockwell, if these mothers stand by and allow the institutional child rape of their girls 13, 14, 15 years old, they`re part and parcel there -- the whole kit and caboodle need to go to court!

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this is biggest hot (ph) mess that you`re going to see in a long time. First of all, these woman, they have come up in this way of life...

GRACE: So?

ROCKWELL: ... all their lives. They may have never known anything else.

GRACE: Don`t care!

ROCKWELL: You`ve got...

GRACE: Don`t care!

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, how in the world are you going to prove anything? You`ve got these kids saying...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa!

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Not what I asked you!

ROCKWELL: I understand that. But Nancy...

GRACE: Yes?

ROCKWELL: ... they`re being complicit, they`re going along with it. But this is all they`ve ever known.

GRACE: OK...

ROCKWELL: And I don`t see how you`re going to prosecute all of them.

GRACE: That`s your defense?

ROCKWELL: For what, Nancy?

GRACE: OK. That`s your defense? Thank you, Renee. Randy Zelin, please give...

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, these women...

GRACE: ... me something a little bit better.

ROCKWELL: These women are imprisoned, just like these children are. They don`t know what`s going on.

GRACE: Renee, I appreciate that. The fact that you grew up violating the law is not a defense. If you can find a single case in the history of these United States where that is a successful defense, please alert me.

Randy Zelin...

ROCKWELL: But Nancy...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on! We`re going to -- yes, I heard you the first time. Randy, please respond.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think what you have here -- and I`ll go back to something that was said a couple of minutes ago, which is why did these women go back? And the reason why they went back is for the reason that you just set forth, because if they don`t go back, it`s consciousness of guilt. It means that they`re in on it. They`re part of it. They allowed it to happen. So what they do is, they go back.

GRACE: I want to go back out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, and Michael Board, WOAI Newsradio. Sean, I noticed the women dodging the questions about underage marriage -- in other words, child rape. And they do it so meekly and so gracefully, it`s as if it`s all OK.

CALLEBS: You know, they answer questions with questions. That was the experience that I had when we were out there. I think leading into your show tonight, you played one clip from a woman -- I asked her specifically, Is there sex with underage girls? And her response was, No one is forced to do anything. So you can read into that exactly what you will. You know, clearly...

GRACE: Sounds like a big, fat "yes" to me, Sean Callebs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, could I have your name, please?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Marie (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you give me your last name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I won`t give you my last name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donna (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand. Why won`t you tell me your last names?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just want our children back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no easy way to ask this, but the allegation is this has been an area, a ranch, a compound, if you will, where underage girls had sex with older men. There are a lot of child brides. Do you see that going on here at all?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not. That is not the fact. No facts to that. And it does not, at this point, have anything to do with what we want, that our children come back to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Still refusing to answer authorities` questions regarding underage sex forced on girls as young as 13 years old. They keep focusing the attention back on their children, the children that they left behind to go back to this polygamist ranch.

I want to go out to Flora Jessop, former polygamist and child bride. Why do we only see the women? Where are all the men and little boys?

FLORA JESSOP, FORMER POLYGAMIST AND CHILD BRIDE: The men are cowards and the men are renowned for hiding behind the skirts of their -- of the women. They will not come out and talk to somebody that`s their equal size. These guys hide behind the abuses that they commit. These guys would be asked questions about why they`re raping children. And then they would have to answer questions. So they leave it up to their women to come forward and say, But it doesn`t happen, we`re here by choice, because if the women aren`t being abused, there`s no action to take.

But I personally think that these women need to be held accountable in a conspiracy in committing the child abuse that has occurred because they`ve given -- they`ve willingly given their daughters to these men so that they can rape and abuse them.

GRACE: Out to Alison Arngrim, spokesperson with the National Association to Protect Children. Alison, I understand that this is all the women have ever known. I understand that. And I feel for them. But between them and the totally innocent child victims? Clearly, the children are being abused.

ALISON ARNGRIM, NATIONAL ASSOC. TO PROTECT CHILDREN: Yes. I am so mad, Nancy, I am fit to be tied. I mean, this is about child rape. That`s what this is about. This is not about religion. These people are operating a scam. And they`re also doing it with our money. These people got $1.5 million in government defense contracts to make, like, brake parts. They got $900,000 in government federal loans. The women, they`re single mothers. They file for Welfare as single mothers while they`re living with the one guy, and they cash those checks.

GRACE: So basically...

ARNGRIM: You like those prairie dresses? You paid for them.

GRACE: Alison is correct. We`re bankrolling this whole ranch with Welfare checks.

Very quickly -- we`re taking your calls live, our reporters out there in Texas, Sean Callebs and Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio -- the search goes on for a missing California woman vanishing into thin air, 33-year-old Alicia Amanda Stokes -- Mandy -- last seen November 2007, set to run errands, never heard from again, her black Honda Accord found abandoned at Diamond Park Ravine (ph), doors locked, wallet inside. Family say she would never go a day without contacting one of her seven siblings. Please take a look. If you have info, call Oakland police, 510-637-0298. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no force here. Everyone has their choice to do exactly what they would like. There is no force. And we want the children and they want us. They are clean and pure, and this is the worst thing that has happened to them. They are learning terrible things just in the questions that are being asked, things that they have never been exposed to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Clean and pure and unabused up until about age 13. That`s when the "spiritual marriages" begin with young girls.

Out to Sue in Illinois. Hi, Sue.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congrats on your twins.

GRACE: I got some new photos for you tonight, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, where do these people get the moneys to build these elaborate compounds?

GRACE: Oh, Sue, you are so dead on. Probably the only way this bunch is going to be brought down is through the IRS. Think about it. What about it? To Michael. Where do they get the funding?

BOARD: Well, you`ll like this one, Nancy. It`s called "bleeding the beast." What they do is the men who run these compounds sign their wives up for Welfare from the state. They get every cent they can off of every social service possible. The women never see a cent of that. That goes right to the leaders. Also what they do is they use some of the young men to do construction jobs, then the young men give all their paychecks to the leaders. In return, they get a child bride.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When CPS removed the children from Fort Concho and moved many of them to the pavilion here in San Angelo, they gave the mothers of children aged 5 years and under the opportunity to come here. Now those with children over 5 had to either go back to the compound or to a, quote, "safe house."

When we were with the FLDS, they told us all of the women chose to go back to the YFC ranch. Well, Texas Child protective Services says that`s simply not the case, that there are six women now that are being held in a safe house.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: All to a point where police had to confiscate these women`s cell phones to keep the people back in the compound from calling them and intimidating them as witnesses, telling them what to say. If you asked one of them, how old were you when you got married? They go, "I can`t tell you that. Oh, no, I was 21." And they all say 21, 21, 21.

It`s the strangest thing. Authorities having the toughest time trying to get any truthful answers out of these adult women, six of them now seeking haven in a safe house.

I want to go back out to the lines to Annette in Wisconsin. Hi, Annette.

ANNETTE, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hello, Nancy. Thank you for everything you do. You educate us so much on things that we would not normally have access to. I appreciate that so much.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you.

ANNETTE: And we love it when you show those baby pictures.

GRACE: I`ve got some new ones tonight. What`s your question, dear?

ANNETTE: OK. How long can Child Protective Services hold these children away from their mothers in the compound? And also, this compound, how long has it been there? And do we know where these members came from? Do they come from other compounds and other states or were they all from Texas?

GRACE: Good questions, Annette in Wisconsin.

Out to you, Michael Board. Where did all these people come from, first of all, that are on this compound? And how long has "Yearning for Zion" been here?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: They came here, what, 2002, 2003, I forget the exact date. But all the people who came out here came from other churches. I say churches, but there are other, you know, groups like this out in Colorado City, Arizona, Utah, some -- I believe they have a sect out in -- it`s somewhere in Canada right across the border there.

But they`ve all come from similar cults together here. I believe some of them came here when Warren Jeffs, the leader of that polygamous sect got busted. He sent his second in command, this guy, this character named Merrill Jessop, down here with a bunch of his followers to set up this camp down here.

CALLEBS: To Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent joining us there in Texas. Sean, how long, conceivably, could the children be kept in protective custody? And also, I know there was about 125-foot cross on top of one of the structures, yet some of the women said they don`t believe in Easter? How can that be?

CALLEBS: Their religion is a real mystery to a lot of people. And a couple things, I think that the reason they are opening the doors and allowing people in there right now is they`re desperate. They know the hearing begins here in this courthouse behind me tomorrow and that is going to a long way towards deciding whether they ever see these 416 children again.

How long can the state keep them? Until due process runs its course. You know how it works in a child abuse allegation. They get the child out of that environment instantly because authorities have the mandate to go in and determine what is going on. The safety of the child is first and foremost, that`s the reason they got them out of there so quickly.

One thing that the state is clearly wrestling with, we know about this alleged 16-year-old girl who made apparently a hushed phone call that triggered that raid on April 3rd. Well, authorities have yet to be able to find that girl.

Now, Nancy, you`re an attorney. How is it going to affect the -- this process, as it moves forward?

GRACE: Well, I`ve been thinking about that.

CALLEBS: Because all these children of attorneys now. Yes, if they can`t make the argument here`s the person who was abused, then what happens?

GRACE: There`s one way legally that I thought of so far around it, if they don`t find the original complainant.

Renee Rockwell, Randy Zelin, let`s be brief. What about the theory of inevitable discovery? For instance, Randy Zelin, I`ve got a body buried in my backyard, they torture a confession out of me, the state can still argue -- well, ultimately, the body would have been found inevitably. That could, could win the day in this case, Randy Zelin.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s no question because the laws are still designed to give the state the best shot that you can get. You`ve got good faith exceptions to warrant requirements, you`ve got, as you just said, hey, I would have found it anyway, so why are we putting form over substance.

GRACE: Exactly.

ZELIN: Let`s get the evidence in.

GRACE: Would it work, Renee Rockwell?

RENEE ROCKWEELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that it would come in, Nancy, because nobody`s saying this did not happen. Nobody`s saying that somebody just manufactured or fabricated this phone call. The phone call obviously was accepted and then they went in to investigate it. I think it comes in.

GRACE: We`re about to go to Rick Ross, a cult expert. But first, let`s take a look at the women themselves. Here is sound from GMA, where they`re speaking out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: They took my little 7-year-old girl and they lied to us. CPS lied and she told me a few days ago, she said, "Mother, all they do is lie. They`re just telling us lies and lies."

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What lies?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: She said they tell us one thing and they do another thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: They say that we`re going to get.

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: They say we`re going to be together and they don`t let us be together.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do 14, 15, 16-year-old girls get married here?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We are talking about our children right now.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I understand. But does that happen here? Are 16-year-old girls married to older men here?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We -- this is about our children. We`re talking about our children.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you share a husband with many other wives?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: I choose not to answer that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why not?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: Because it`s sacred to me.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I take that to mean you do share a husband with other wives?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: It may or may not.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What is life like here? I don`t think people can comprehend.

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: Do you know the definition of Zion?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tell me, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: Heaven on earth.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you believe you live in heaven on earth?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: Yes, I do. This is what I do. It is heaven on earth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Well, those 13-year-old girls being forced into marriage with 54, 55-year-old men may not think it`s heaven on earth.

To Rick Ross, you are the cult expert. All I know is that I would love to cross-examine them on the stand and find out what they really know about child brides and where all the little boys are. Are these women brainwashed?

RICK ROSS, CULT EXPERT: Well, it seems that they`re not really connecting in any spontaneous way. It`s like they`re running a program. They have a mindset. And if you will, they`re kind of like set pieces in a play, put together by the polygamous leaders. The one woman who refused to answer about what the ages of the children were when they were married would not answer when she was asked, what age were you when you married?

And the woman who was smiling, it just seemed like she was disconnected from reality. If she is a grieving mother, torn up emotionally about being separated from her child, what is the smile all about? The woman that returned to the compound have made a choice. And the choice is that their loyalty is foremost to the group.

And, Nancy, it`s not hard for us to look back in cult history, that is, other cults that have existed, to understand that this goes on. I mean, remember Jonestown, the mass suicide in 1978, more than 200 dead children, alongside their own parents, taking Kool-Aid.

GRACE: All I know is you would have to put me in shackles before you could take my children and then send me back to that ranch. I would be right up under wherever those children were, if there was any way that I could find them or I would be lying on the front steps of the courthouse, begging for my children.

To Mike Brooks, very quickly, police are, in images, caught by the FLDS, as if they`re doing something wrong. Aren`t they just trying to avoid another Waco?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Absolutely, Nancy.

David Koresh, another polygamist, a lot of ideals that parallel with this group. Yes, absolutely. If I`m to write an ops plan, I`m going to make sure I have APCs, armor personnel carriers, men, women with guns like this, be going in there because it`s such a closed society, we don`t know what`s going on behind those walls, Nancy. And I hope that those six women that Sean Callebs talks about that are in that safe house, I hope they can break this case wide open if they do cooperate with law enforcement.

GRACE: You know, Mike, remember the agents that died in Waco. Remember that?

BROOKS: Four agents of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, absolutely, Nancy.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll be right back. We are taking your calls live.

Thank you for asking. And here are new photos of the twins and a special thank you tonight to Stephanie McGuire of Beaumont, Texas for the onesies they`re wearing in their first family photo and the little hats they wear strolling outside. Here are the new photo. I hope you like them.

And you If you want to find out about the onesies, you can go to Faithbaby.com.

Here`s John David pushing himself up during tummy time. Here`s baby Lucy, "Warning Double Trouble." Oh he got lost in the (INAUDIBLE). Outside strolling in his Brad Pitt hat.

Everybody, when we come back, tumble dry takes a whole new meaning. A Missouri mom and her live-in loved the two children in the dryer and turned it on. Well, maybe the perps will get their own laundry duty tonight behind bars.

ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Temperatures inside a dryer can soar around 165 degrees Fahrenheit. And tonight, two small children, just 8 and 10 years old escaped what could have been life-threatening injuries, allegedly placed in a dryer by their own mother and her boyfriend. Twenty-nine-year- old Nicole Eberhart and 26-year-old Stephen Ray facing felony charges of child abuse and neglect.

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GRACE: Put their two children in the dryer, turned it on.

To Rance Burger, reporter with News Talk 1150 KRMS. Welcome, Rance. What happened?

RANCE BURGER, REPORTER, NEWSTALK 1150 KRMS: Nancy, it all stems back really to last Thursday, a school official reportedly contacted the Camden County Sheriff`s Department and informed them that they suspected child abuse going on in a home with two children in the Lynn Creek, Missouri area.

An investigation then began on Friday, the 11th. Deputies arrested one of the child abuse suspects on that same day, that suspect is 26-year- old Stephen Ray Junior, the boyfriend of the mother with two children. He stands accused of placing his girlfriend`s kids in a clothes dryer and turning on the dryer with them inside.

Apparently, one of the children in this case, the boy, 10 years old, reportedly told deputies that Ray had also struck him on multiple occasions, some of those strikes to the back of the head. The mother, subsequently, 29-year-old Nicole Eberhart was arrested Monday, April 14th as the investigation continued and much like her boyfriend Stephen Ray, she faces two felony charges of child abuse, stemming from, again, placing the children in a dryer and turning on the dryer with them inside.

Both of the children were injured as a result of being inside the dryer. The boy, 10 years old, suffering from bruises both from the dryer and from the striking incident. The girl, 8 years old, told investigators that she had suffered neck pain as a result of that incident.

According to the probable cause statement, there`s a bizarre piece of information, rather, that investigators have uncovered. The two children told investigators that Stephen Ray made his girlfriend, 29-year-old Nicole Eberhart, and the two kids strip down to their underwear and stand outside the house. It`s unclear for the duration of the time on that but certainly a bizarre detail of this investigation.

Both Eberhart and Ray reportedly told investigators that the incidents being reported as abuse were just fun. They were playing with the children and they have since both been arraigned in a circuit court by Judge Jack Ben of the 26th Circuit Court of Missouri. Their -- they await preliminary hearings in the future. Nicole Eberhart actually arraigned just today.

GRACE: Rance Burger, joining us from Newstalk 1150 KRMS.

Special guest joining us tonight, Sheriff John W. Page. He`s the Camden County sheriff. Thank you so much, Sheriff, for being with us. So often people turn a deaf ear when they hear stories about child abuse. These people were arrested and were behind bars tonight. How long, Sheriff, do you think this type of treatment on these two children had been going on?

SHERIFF JOHN W. PAGE, CAMDEN COUNTY SHERRIF`S OFFICE: We`re -- you know, we`re still, of course, doing the investigation and some of the follow-up stuff with the children. But we`re not totally sure on how long this type of activity`s been going on.

GRACE: Isn`t it true that the mom said something about they had seen a cat in a clothes dryer and thought it was funny?

PAGE: Yes. That was one of her statements that she made reference to where this idea came from.

GRACE: And Sheriff, aren`t the allegations that she put -- they put the children in separately, so on at least two occasions, they put the children in, I think the little boy kicked the door open and they put him back in?

PAGE: Yes.

GRACE: Good Lord. Sheriff, have you ever seen anything like it?

PAGE: No, I have not. I mean this is pretty bizarre, as far as a, I don`t know, a form of punishment, you know, or any of that. I mean -- and it`s just, I think, one of several things that we`ll find out has been the case.

GRACE: Now she works as a machinist. What about him? Does he have a job?

PAGE: He`s listed as a laborer, unemployed at this point.

GRACE: Was there pot in the home?

PAGE: Yes.

GRACE: Mm-hmm.

Out to Dr. Jake Deustch, doctor of emergency medicine, what type -- how high do temperatures get in a family clothes dryer?

DR. JAKE DEUSTCH, DOCTOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE: It looks like this was an industrial dryer, Nancy, so temperatures 160 degrees. So what comes to mind is burns, and it`s never easy to see child abuse, but this is an extraordinary circumstance, burns, asphyxiation or type of injuries that I would potentially see and even trauma, head trauma, like a shaken baby syndrome, broken bones.

You know, you never can prepare yourself for a child abuse case but this really sets the standards to an ultimate new low.

GRACE: Dare I ask it, Mike Brooks, weigh in.

BROOKS: Nancy, 30 seconds in a dryer, 30 seconds. Time that. It`s a long time and this 10-year-old boy kicking the door open, getting slapped in the back of the head, and thrown back in the dryer, you know there`s so many people out that want kids, know how to treat kids, this mother, she should never see these kids ever again. And again -- and another thing apparently this wasn`t this guy`s first rodeo, Nancy. This guy was on probation when this happened and he`s locked up apparently on two probation warrants right now.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, thank you for bringing that up and I would love to find out who let him slip through the cracks. You know, it was also brought up, Patricia Saunders, very quickly, that someone at school reported bruising. There is no telling how long this has been going on. And isn`t it true the schoolteachers said we need jurisdictions, it`s the law that they report suspected child abuse?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s absolutely right, Nancy. They`re mandated reporters. And schoolteachers are usually the first line of defense for children like this.

GRACE: OK. Let`s hear second verse, same as the first, Renee Rockwell, Randy Zelin, give me your best shot, Renee, and try to stick to the law this time.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, what happens in this case is whoever I would represent is going to do a deal and testify against the other party. That`s all you can do is damage control.

GRACE: OK. For once I can say now you`re talking.

What about it, Zelin? What if you`re the unlucky lawyer left with one who doesn`t turn over on the other?

ZELIN: It`s very simple. You go to the prosecutor and say, hey, listen, do we really need to subject these kids to cross-examination and the horrors.

GRACE: Yes, what could be worse? What could be worse, Randy?

ZELIN: .of a trial.

GRACE: Maybe being locked in a clothes dryer.

ZELIN: But that is where you get to a deal, to spare the kids. It happens all the time.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ray is being held with no bond, per the associate circuit court here in Camden County. He has two felony counts of child abuse and two probation and parole charges for violation of a previous probation case.

Miss Eberhart is -- has $100,000 bond on the two counts, two felony counts of child abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Incredible, put the two kids in a dryer and turn it on.

To Monica in Minnesota. Hi, Monica.

MONICA, MINNESOTA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

MONICA: Well, first up, I have to say that your babies are adorable and I read your book "Objection" and I am very seriously becoming a prosecutor. You inspired me.

GRACE: God bless you. You won`t make much money.

MONICA: I don`t care.

GRACE: But you`re going to be -- the toughest job you ever loved.

MONICA: But -- yeah.

GRACE: What`s your question?

MONICA: My question is, this is looks like a regular Laundromat. And I`m wondering what time of the evening this was? Because -- were there any witnesses? Because.

GRACE: Good question. Good question.

MONICA: And also cameras? Laundromats tend to have cameras.

GRACE: Sheriff, was it in the home or was it in a Laundromat?

PAGE: It was in the home.

GRACE: OK. It`s just this type of dryer.

Very quickly, Erin in Canada. Hi, Erin.

ERIN, CANADIAN RESIDENT: OK. Nancy, I just want to say that you truly are my hero. And second of all.

GRACE: God bless you.

ERIN: .I just want to say, what in the heck -- as angry as children can make you, what in the world is going through those two people`s minds.

GRACE: Rance Burger, do they have any history of mental illness or they`re just plain out mean?

BURGER: What we do know is Stephen Ray`s criminal past really -- not much of on rap sheet on Nicole Eberhart. However, Ray has a previous arrest for third-degree domestic assault and at the time his probably violations, I believe.

GRACE: That`s Rance Burger with Newstalk 1150.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Peter Neesley, 28, Griss Point, Michigan, killed, Iraq, on a second tour. Loved family, visiting elementary school children back home, taking care of stray animals. His family fulfilling his dream of bringing his pet home to Michigan, leaves behind grieving parents Robert and Christine, sister Carrie, Aunt Julie.

Peter Neesley, American hero.

Thanks to all of our guest but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END