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Campbell Brown
Sex Abuse Victims Meet With Pope Benedict XVI; Pennsylvania Presidential Primary Nears; Polygamy Case Underway: A Look Inside the Texas Courtroom
Aired April 17, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We begin tonight with breaking and exclusive news about a secret meeting the pope had today. This was Pope Benedict XVI's historic and totally unexpected meeting with victims who were sexually abuse by Catholic priests.
The sex abuse scandal has rocked the foundations of the U.S. Catholic Church, and cost it more than $2 billion. And, of course, it has scarred countless victims. No pope had ever heard from and spoken with the victims in person until today.
The meeting took place just a few hours ago at the Vatican's embassy in Washington -- no cameras, no reporters.
But three people who were in the meeting join us now exclusively.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: With me now are Olan Horne, Faith Johnston, and Bernie McDaid.
And let me just say, welcome to all of you. Appreciate you coming on tonight.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Before we talk about today's event, I would like each of you to tell me a little bit about what happened to you, a little bit of your story.
And, Bernie, why don't you start?
BERNIE MCDAID, SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR: Yes.
Well, I was abused as a kid, 11, 12-years-old, 1968, '69, in St. James Parish in Salem, Mass. Father Birmingham was the priest. I was an altar boy. I was abused in the sacrificed. I was abused in his car when he would come out into my neighborhood. And I was abused in the guidance room, which was the coat room between the two classrooms, while class was in session.
Multiple classmates also were abused at the same time and same settings.
BROWN: And, Olan, I know that you were abused by the same priest. Is your story similar to Bernie's? OLAN HORNE, SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR: By the same priest. Actually, Bernie's parents had a courageous story who had gone to the chancery to tell officials that he had been abused and that Joseph Birmingham was abusing boys within the parish.
And they assured him that they would get him help and they moved him away. And they moved him to my parish, where I got to know him. Joseph Birmingham became a terrible, terrible, terrible reminder of all that goes wrong when the official people in a position of protecting children really didn't do what they were supposed to do.
And he began his reign of pedophilia upon myself and my whole parish, and, subsequently, years later, moved to another parish where he continued the same sort of behavior.
BROWN: Faith, what about you?
FAITH JOHNSTON, SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR: I was 14 years old, working in the rectory at my parish at the time in Haverhill. And Kelvin Iguabita, I guess I think he thought I was available, and he preyed upon me for several months. And I was about 15 when I finally quit the job.
BROWN: And he was prosecuted.
JOHNSTON: Yes.
I brought the -- I was given the decision -- I was given the choice, and I decided, when I found out that there had been other victims who weren't willing to come forward for numerous reasons, I did. I decided to take it to court.
BROWN: Very courageous of you.
And let's go to today. What an extraordinary thing to happen today.
And, Bernie, tell us how this meeting came about.
MCDAID: We were invited by the Vatican to see the pontiff to talk about this issue. It's been a long time waiting, but it did occur, finally.
BROWN: And what were you thinking when you got the call from the Vatican saying the pope wants to sit down with you and talk about this?
MCDAID: I got a phone call, and I -- you know, out of the blue, basically, and I couldn't believe -- I couldn't believe it at first.
And then, as time went on, I accepted it. And it's what I have wanted since 2003. I went to Rome in 2003, wanting this meeting. And now I finally got it.
BROWN: And, Faith, were you shocked when you got that call?
JOHNSTON: I'm still shocked. It hasn't quite sunk in yet. But, yes, I was very shocked when they asked me if I would go.
BROWN: Olan, did you have any idea this might happen?
HORNE: I had no idea it would happen at all. I was actually -- I'm still amazed when I think about it, because this has been a want of mine from day one. This has been an eight-year-long inquiry into it. And I think it's a very, very important step.
BROWN: Walk us through the day. I want each of you to do this.
Faith, and you start. As you are riding over to the papal embassy in Washington, just in the car, how were you feeling?
JOHNSTON: I was just sort of numb, and I had my mother's rosary beads, which she gave to me before I left home. And I was just clutching those and just praying for the strength to say the right thing. I was just -- I just didn't know what to feel. It was very chaotic, a lot of emotions going on.
BROWN: Well, it had to have been an emotional moment. What did you say? What did you say to the pope?
JOHNSTON: I didn't end up saying anything. I got up to him, and I burst into tears. But, honestly, think that was -- I don't think I could have -- any words I could have said, I don't think -- I think just my tears alone spoke -- just spoke so much, yes.
BROWN: So, Bernie, what about you? When you were in his presence, what was it like?
MCDAID: We spoke. I shook his hand. And I basically told him that I was an altar boy in the sacristy, a young boy praying to God, and at the time that I was abused, and it wasn't just sexual abuse. It was spiritual abuse. And I want you to know that.
And then I told him that he has a cancer growing in his ministry, and needs to do something about it. And I hope he hears me right. And I touched his heart. And he nodded.
BROWN: Did you feel like he did hear you?
MCDAID: Absolutely.
BROWN: Olan, describe the moment from your perspective, meeting with him.
HORNE: I can only speak for myself, but I have to tell you that it was probably an opportunity that we were very lucky to have.
It was unscripted. It was free-flowing. There was no filter to it whatsoever. We had unfiltered access. Nobody told us we couldn't say anything. We were allowed to say what we want. And I think everybody in that room did say exactly what they wanted to say. And I think, in a bigger sense, is that maybe not one person, but I think we were all able to answer all of the questions that needed to be asked and for him to respond to. And he did. And he did forthright. BROWN: Was it as emotional for you?
HORNE: It was absolutely emotional.
There's no way you can sit in a room full of survivors and hear stories or even just watch a survivor not even be able to come to terms with the abuse, as Faith did. But it spoke volumes. And he responded accordingly to that. And I found that refreshing.
BROWN: So, what did he say? What did he say to you?
HORNE: He first apologized.
And I didn't think I needed an apology. I thought I had heard them, and they rang hollow. But there's a great sense of hope that came here. There's a great new bell that has been rung, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm hearing something that I have never heard.
The other part of it that really, really took me by surprise is that he seemed to intrinsically understand what we were talking about. There was -- it wasn't something that he got from a newspaper or a -- or it was something that he had learned from his from his assistants.
It was something that he obviously spent time to get to know. And he spoke to those issues to each one of us in a spiritual way, in a pastoral way. And he also was very respectful of where and what we wanted to talk about.
BROWN: Faith, did you tell him your story at all?
JOHNSTON: No.
He had been given like kind of summaries of our stories beforehand, where we are now. And all -- he just -- again, I didn't say anything. I was just in tears. But he congratulated me on my upcoming wedding, and he said he would pray for me and my future husband and for our future family.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We're going to take a brief break. And we will be back with more from Bernie, Faith and Olan right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we are back with more of our exclusive story about the pope's secret meeting in Washington late this afternoon. A number of survivors of clerical sexual abuse met with the pope. It's the first time a pope has actually heard from and met with victims of priest sexual abuse.
And we now continue with our interview with three of the victims who met Pope Benedict today, Olan Horne, Faith Johnston, and Bernie McDaid.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Let me ask you, Bernie, did you have mixed feelings about being part of this, about taking part in the meeting?
MCDAID: No. I don't know what you mean by mixed.
BROWN: Because it had been a struggle for so long to reach this point, to have this meeting in the first place.
MCDAID: Mixed in the sense that I wished it had happened a lot sooner. I had been trying since 2003 for the head of the Catholic Church to address this thing with eye-to-eye contact.
But I also have to tell you, today's mass did something. I don't go to mass, but, today, I went with my mother. And his sermon there, and his apology about the sexual abuse blew me away. And I had tears in my eyes that I wasn't ready to have. It was an incredible moment for me.
BROWN: What was your takeaway, Bernie, from the meeting? Do you feel hopeful now?
MCDAID: Absolutely.
As Father John Connolly (ph) said, this is the end of the beginning -- Am I saying that right? -- that this is a new start, I believe, we're at the beginning of a new start, and there's real hope this time. It's not just words. I think there's going to be action following this moment now.
BROWN: Well, that's part of my question, I guess, to all of you now, is, the pope yesterday really opened the doors and gave the church permission to talk about this.
Do you all believe that this veil of secrecy will finally be lifted.
Faith?
JOHNSTON: Yes, definitely.
I think they have already -- I think there are already changes happening. And there's definitely so much hope right now, definitely.
BROWN: And, Olan, what about you?
HORNE: I always used to say, I'm from Missouri. Show me. And, today, I saw. And I don't say that lightly.
I know that I speak for myself, and I can't speak for any other survivor. And I'm sure that anybody would have maybe asked different questions. But I think we also had to do one thing. We had to allow the Holy Father to be the Holy Father. And I think there was a great balance between that and him hearing us.
And I'm hopeful. I have been hopeful for eight years. I struggle in my spirituality, but hope has been my faith. And my hope was restored today from what I heard. And I believe we received a promise. And I believe, not only myself, but I believe a lot of people received a promise today within the words.
If anybody listened to the mass and heard the sincerity, I think he talked frankly to the issue. And I think another issue is that we were there longer than we expected to be. We were allowed the time necessary to convey the messages that needed to be conveyed. And there was frank talk. And we believe that in itself is a great beginning.
Martin Luther King said, faith is a step. You might not see the whole staircase, but that first step is the beginning.
BROWN: And, Faith, what do you take from this meeting?
JOHNSTON: Just a message of hope. And I hope that other survivors can hear about this, see this, and get the same hope that we have all gotten from it.
BROWN: And, finally, Bernie, you, what do you take from this going forward?
MCDAID: There's a lot of pain. Even the people that are yelling from the street corner deserve to be heard, and I think they are getting heard. All factions are being heard now. Let's see what happens.
BROWN: An extraordinary day for all of you.
To Bernie, to Faith, and to Olan, thank you so much for being with us tonight. We really appreciate it.
JOHNSTON: Thank you.
MCDAID: Thank you.
HORNE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: CNN senior Vatican analyst John Allen is with us now.
And we have been talking, John, as you know, with three sex abuse victims who met with Pope Benedict today.
And, John, I know that you know all the details of how this came about, and how it happened in the first place. We're going to get into that in a minute. But let me ask you, can you believe that this actually did take place today in Washington?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, I got to tell you, Campbell, I strive to be, obviously a detached, objective journalist about this. I have been covering the Vatican for a good long while now. And not much gets to me.
But I have to admit, just as a Catholic, as apart from being a journalist, I get chills listening to what we have just heard and seen.
Can I believe that it happened? Yes, I can. Obviously, it was unexpected, although we certainly had indications that something might be coming. But I think what we have learned today, and what we have learned throughout this trip is that, if there was any question about whether Benedict XVI understood the depth and the gravity of the sexual abuse crisis in the American church, that question has gotten a resounding answer.
Not only has he spoken through his words, very forceful words now, in three public addresses, but he's spoken also through his actions, this unprecedented action, because I think it's important to remind our viewers that, prior to today, no pope has ever met with victims of sexual abuse.
So, knowing what I do about Benedict, on one level, I'm not surprised. Now, on the other hand, knowing the whole history of this crisis, and how many hopes and prayers went into this moment today, it is difficult to get one's mind around.
BROWN: All right, John, I need to stop you for one moment.
We're going to be right back with more on today's extraordinary meeting between the pope and victims of sexual abuse by priests after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I'm back with CNN senior Vatican analyst John Allen.
And we have been talking about Pope Benedict's extraordinary meeting today with the victims of sex abuse by priests, and whether it will help lift the cloud of scandal that's been hanging over the church.
And, John, the pope has been talking about -- candidly about the scandal all week. But meeting with the victims themselves really takes it to a whole new level. Walk us through kind of how this came about, leading up to this moment. An enormous amount of planning must have gone into it.
ALLEN: Yes.
And, Campbell, in some ways, I think we're still piecing that story together. But here's what we know. Bernie McDaid, as he mentioned in your piece, actually came over to Rome in 2003. And that's when I first met him. And he came over as a victim, as a survivor with no particular game plan, except to knock on some doors, until one of them opened up and someone listened to him.
And he spent a number of days in Rome -- and I was in contact with him during that period -- trying to sort of kick in the door of the Vatican. And, eventually, a very senior Vatican official did meet with him, someone who worked in the Vatican's bureaucracy, who came with a personal message for him and the two other victims who came with him from John Paul II, and who said he would take his message back to John Paul II.
And, so, obviously, since that time, Bernie has been on the Vatican's radar screen, so to speak.
BROWN: Right.
ALLEN: The other element here is that these victims were accompanied by Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston. Of course, many of them are from the Boston area.
And from what we understand, Cardinal O'Malley played a pretty instrumental role in making today's meeting possible, although we have to stress, Campbell, that, at the end of the day, regardless of what the backstory is, it was Pope Benedict's choice to have this meeting.
BROWN: Well, I was going to say, how damaging would it have been, frankly, if he hadn't had the meeting and spent the whole week here and never come face to face with these people? It was pretty important that he did this, don't you think?
ALLEN: Well, I think it's enormously important now that it has happened. However, Campbell, you know and I know, you know, we have gone on CNN's air the last couple of days talking about how forcefully the pope has engaged the crisis. I mean, in some ways, I think, even if he hadn't had this meeting, a lot of -- the takeaway from this trip in some ways would have been that Pope Benedict came here and really acknowledged the crisis.
So, I don't know this was one of those political have-to moments. I think this was a pope who simply decided that at the moral and spiritual and pastoral level, he had to do this.
One other note -- before his election as pope, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was the head of the Vatican office that, since 2001, had responsibility for the sex abuse crisis, which means that he's actually read virtually all of the case files about all of the instances of abuse in the American church.
He probably knows more about it at the level of detail than most American bishops do. And I think, having had that experience, probably, personally, for him, he, too, felt this was something he simply could not not do.
BROWN: How is this -- we heard from the three victims who were there taking part in the meeting. But there are networks of victims of priest sex abuse out there. How do you think this is going to resonate beyond the people that we have heard from?
ALLEN: Well, we already have a statement from what is the largest victims advocacy group, which is the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. It's important to stress that the three people you talked to are not part of any formal group.
But this other group, known as SNAP, has put out a statement indicating that they see this as a long overdue, welcome first step, but, of course, they are waiting to see these words and these gestures matched by concrete action.
BROWN: And do you think that will happen? I mean, there is a sense among some -- we have heard that -- that there are many bishops, many cardinals, many priests still out there who, you know, if they weren't part of this, knew it was going on, were part of a cover-up. And there are people who want to see action taken against those.
ALLEN: Yes, that's right.
And I think it's difficult to say today, Campbell, exactly what policy changes might flow from this. I think what's going to happen is, the pope is going to mull over what he heard. He will undoubtedly consult with his senior advisers and with others who are well informed on this issue, and probably think about what that logical next step might be.
But I do think what's happened, not just in this meeting, although this clearly is the most dramatic moment of the trip to date, but certainly the public commentary from the pope is this remarkably, I would say almost stunningly, candid language from the pope, that has created a sort of momentum, I think, and now a set of expectations that something concrete is going to follow. It's going to be very difficult for the church, in some way, not to respond to this.
BROWN: All right, John Allen -- John, we appreciate it. Thanks so much for your time.
And for continuing coverage of Pope Benedict and the latest video of his trip to America, go to CNN.com/pope. You can also share your I-Reports on the pope while he is here, all of that at CNN.com/pope.
And we're going to turn now to presidential politics. With the Pennsylvania primary just five days away, the surprises just keep coming. Can you believe what Hillary Clinton said about Barack Obama? Well, you will hear it -- after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Check this out. All three presidential candidates started the day in Washington, D.C., each in the same hallway, standing for the same photo-op, shaking hands with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.
For where everybody is right now, let's get the view from 30,000 feet.
After meeting with the prime minister, Hillary Clinton flew straight back to Pennsylvania, where the primary looms in just five days. She caught up with daughter Chelsea for an event this afternoon and is due any minute now at a block party in Philadelphia.
Meanwhile, Bill Clinton is just winding up a five-stop marathon in central Pennsylvania. Barack Obama headed south after his meeting with the British prime minister, campaigning in North Carolina, which holds a primary on May 6. Obama will be in Pennsylvania tomorrow. John McCain spent today in Washington. That meeting with the prime minister was his only public event of the day.
Out on the campaign trail, there is still a ton of buzz about last night's one and only Pennsylvania debate. If there's a surprising headline from it, it is Hillary Clinton's answer to the question about whether her opponent, Barack Obama, could beat John McCain. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, MODERATOR: Can he win?
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, yes, yes. Now, I think that I can do a better job. I mean, obviously. That's why I here.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley was at the debate and is in Philadelphia again tonight.
And, Candy, Clinton made, has made electability a huge selling point, the notion that she can beat McCain and Obama can't. But, last night, she gave a little, didn't she?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: She did. I mean, she has tacitly said on the campaign trail, he's not electable; I am.
We know, behind the scenes, some of her operatives have made that argument much more directly, saying Barack Obama is not electable. I will tell you that her campaign advisers were asked about that statement today. And they said, well, she said that he can win. She didn't say that he will win.
So, we may be parsing words here, but, nonetheless, it really gets at the cornerstone of her superdelegate argument, which is, he can't win, and I can.
BROWN: And, you know, Candy, all of the skeletons were brought out last night. Clinton was asked yet again about her much-ballyhooed trip to Bosnia, the one where she said that she arrived amid sniper fire.
Let's listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I may be a lot of things, but I'm not dumb. And I wrote about going to Bosnia in my book in 2004. I laid it all out there. And you're right. On a couple of occasions in the last weeks, I just said some things that weren't in keeping with what I knew to be the case, and what I had written about in my book, and, you know, I'm embarrassed by it. I have apologized for it. I've said it was a mistake. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And, you know, Candy, polls have shown that she has a real trust issue with voters. How much do you think that Bosnia episode did hurt her?
CROWLEY: Well, I think it did. I mean, it's always tough when you look at these polls. You know, we have that "Washington Post"/ABC News poll the other day which showed that her negatives are way up. Over 50 percent of Americans view her negatively. It also show when the question is, do you trust her, those numbers are way up.
Now, this has happened post those Bosnia comments. I also think that contributing to that may be that when she goes negative, she tends to feed into that characterization of her, that she'll say or do anything to win this nomination. So I think it's a couple of things, but I do think Bosnia hurt.
BROWN: And Candy, Obama was asked about his two biggest vulnerabilities, maybe his few biggest vulnerabilities, his comments about working class people clinging to guns and religion, and his association with Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think there's no doubt that I can see how people were offended. It's not the first time that I've made, you know, a statement that was mangled up. It's not going to be the last.
I have discussed this extensively. Reverend Wright is somebody who made controversial statements, but they were not of the sort that we saw that offended so many Americans. And that's why I specifically said that these comments were objectionable. They're not comments that I believe in, and I disassociated myself with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: You know, he said it, Candy. And he has already addressed both of these issues numerous times before. Will Obama keep fielding questions about them for the rest of the campaign?
CROWLEY: Probably. I think at some point it will die down because what's happened here is that this was the first time in a debate that he's been asked and really pressed on these questions. So, it was inevitable but it would come up again. I think probably you saw that he did seem irritated by it.
I think eventually, what we're seeing here as we're looking at the polls, Jeremiah Wright thing didn't seem to stick. He continued to kind of climb in the polls from what we've seen, post his remarks about small-town America being bitter about the economy. We have not seen any significant change in his polling numbers. It's still very tight here in Pennsylvania. So, if that continues to be the case, I think it gets dropped in the primary. But I can assure you, it will come up in the general election, which has been Hillary Clinton's point.
BROWN: Without question. Candy Crowley for us again tonight. Candy, thanks.
We're heading into the "War Room" now. We've got two experts strategists standing by to tell us what the candidates need to do to pull out a victory on Tuesday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Last night, Senator Clinton and I had our 21st debate of the year. And -- I will tell you, it does not get much more fun than these debates. They are -- they are inspiring events.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Dripping with sarcasm. Sounds like somebody is getting a little bit tired of presidential debates. So let's head into our "War Room," our nightly look at the campaign strategies and how the campaigns are adjusting to try to crush each other.
With me now, in Washington, is Democratic strategist and CNN contributor Paul Begala. He's a Clinton supporter, along with Democratic political strategist and Obama surpporter, Jamal Simmons.
Hey there, welcome guys.
JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Hi, Campbell.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Campbell.
BROWN: Jamal, Senator Obama didn't seem to be having a lot of fun last night. And he came out swinging today against Senator Clinton. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: She was taking every opportunity to get a dig in there. You know. That's all right. That's her right. That's her right to kind of twist the knife a little bit.
You know -- that's why -- that's all right. That's all right. You know, the -- you know, the -- that's why she's only airing negative attacks on TV in Pennsylvania. Like most places.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, Jamal, it's pretty snarky coming from him. And in the past, voters have rallied around Hillary Clinton when she is attacked like this. Do you think it's a risk? If you're running his campaign, would you tell him to soften it up a bit? SIMMONS: See, I don't know. Today, I thought he was having a good time at that rally. The audience was into it. I didn't think he was particularly digging at her, as much as he was having a little fun with the way the politics of this all worked.
And his message here is that politics, narrow-minded, small, you know, gotcha politics is not the way we ought to be fighting this campaign. This campaign ought to be about bigger issues. But, you know, watching that debate last night, I watched Denzel Washington's movie "The Great Debaters" last week, and I don't think either one of these candidates would have made the debate team in that movie.
This is not the greatest performance certainly by Barack Obama. And, you know, he said in the past that running for president is like running, having a decathlon, not a marathon. There are a bunch of different events. Debates would not be his best event.
BROWN: All right.
Paul, Hillary Clinton telling supporters in Pennsylvania that she really needs their help to pull this off. She's pretty much asking them to vouch for her character.
Let's listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Well, you know, just knock on the door and say, you know, she's really nice. And -- or you can say it another way. She's not as bad as you think.
We are asking you to hire us, one of us, to be your president. It's the toughest job in the world. And it's going to be especially hard after George Bush and Dick Cheney finally vacates the White House, thank goodness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: You know, Paul, she was making light of it there. But Hillary Clinton does have a trust problem with voters. The polls show, in fact, that it's actually maybe getting worse.
So, let's say you are her campaign manager. How does she turn it around? Does she need to make some kind of character speech? Or how about another sort of teary moment like you saw just before New Hampshire? What does she need to do?
BEGALA: You know, from the beginning of this campaign, we've been having this conversation, Campbell, and I keep saying, attack, attack, attack, because I love attacking. Now, this can surprise you. Maybe it's because the Holy Father is in town. Maybe I'm just filled with more profound (ph) kindness. But --
BROWN: You changed your mind?
BEGALA: Well, for right now, tactics change in a campaign. The future for Hillary, the path to success for Hillary, which is a pretty narrow one, lies more in humanizing Hillary than demonizing Barack, and that's what she was doing there. You know, that's what -- she wasn't sticking the knife in the way that Barack was saying, you know.
BROWN: Right.
BEGALA: And I think that that's -- I know her, so I'm biased. And I love her. I got to consider her like family. She's warm and funny, and we finally are seeing some of that today. I couldn't be happier, you know, as Hillary got to see that. And I think people will -- that's going to do a lot more to overcome, you know, the trust issues and the warmth issues, attacking Barack --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But she wasn't done -- people are kind of getting whiplashed, though, because she wasn't doing a lot of that last week. I mean, is that -- does that need to be your focus here on out?
BEGALA: Well, here on out, who knows? Maybe, we'll change --
BROWN: Well, here on out, we don't know when here on out is.
BEGALA: Exactly. We all sort of change day by day, you know. I mean, I don't mean to talk out of school, but my wife calls me a potty mouth. I have such a foul mouth. I had never cursed in front of her mother. In fact, I hope Mom Friday (ph) is not watching because in the 27 years I have known her she'd never heard me utter a curse word.
Well, we're different people at different moments. And sometimes, you know, Hillary's angry. Sometimes she's happy. The same with Barack. I mean, I thought Jamal had a good point today that he didn't seem particularly bitter to me in that event. He seemed to be kind of having some fun.
If I could give him some advice, though, it's not advice straight from me. I had the best focus group of my life today. It's Teach for America week. And so, I went to the Maya Angelou Charter School here in Washington and Ms. Margaret Reed (ph) is the Teach for America teacher, and I met with her students. And their advice was this for Barack and Hillary both.
Be relevant to our lives. And I think Barack missed the chance last night to get in Georgie Stephanopoulos' face, or Charlie Gibson's face to say, you know, you're not being relevant to the lives of those young men and women at the Maya Angelou Charter School or all across America...
BROWN: Right.
BEGALA: ... when you ask about this stuff from long ago.
BROWN: All right. Well, we'll see if it turns to issues and away from the stuff that we've been talking about. I am not very hopeful that that will happen, though.
Jamal Simmons and Paul Begala, thanks to you both. Appreciate it.
SIMMONS: Thank you.
BEGALA: Thank you.
BROWN: As we said, only five days and counting until the all- important Pennsylvania primary. I'll be right here next Tuesday while the votes are counted, along with the best political team on television. Join us at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. You don't want to miss it.
And there is a new twist in the Texas polygamy scandal. Now, a small town is struggling to try to cope with the biggest child custody case in history. There are lawyers everywhere like this one.
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SARAH HAYS, ATTORNEY FOR FLDS CHILD: What is in the best interest of a child who has not lived in the larger world? Casting a child abruptly into the larger society can be very traumatic. So we're going to have to balance all these interests today as lawyers advocating for the children, and the judge is going to have to balance them all.
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BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" gets underway in just a few minutes.
Larry, who's with you tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Campbell, I know you call it the biggest child custody case in Texas history. It might be the biggest child custody case in American history, and they're still working at it.
Late tonight, it's round one in the Lone Star State versus the polygamist. We're going to be all over it with the very latest. Lots of guests at the top of the hour on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you shortly.
Joe Johns joins us with the other headlines tonight -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, some stunning and troubling numbers from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. A new study reveals that one out of every five U.S. troops who served in those conflicts suffers from major mental problems, posttraumatic stress disorder or depression. That is an astonishing 300,000 veterans. The RAND study also reports that even more, 320,000 suffered possible traumatic brain injuries while deployed.
FBI Director Robert Mueller told a Senate panel today that more than 200 FBI agents are now working full-time on more than 1,300 mortgage fraud investigations, forcing the agency to pull agents off other work to concentrate on these mortgage cases. A massive security operation in New Delhi, India, once more dimmed the flame of the Olympic Torch Relay. Fifteen thousand police closed off the city center to shield the flame from pro Tibet protest -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Joe, thank you. Appreciate it.
The Texas polygamy scandal heads to court. Our David Mattingly has been in the courtroom all day. He's going to join me in just a minute.
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BROWN: An incredible sight in west Texas today. Mothers in pioneer dresses, members of that polygamist sect. They walked into a courtroom beginning a fight to regain custody of their children. It's the biggest and most complicated child custody case in U.S. history. Cases, we should say.
Court is still in session at this very hour. David Mattingly stepped out just now to join us.
And David, some stunning news tonight from the courtroom. Give us the latest.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, the state had no idea, according to the testimony that we heard, of what they were getting into when they went on to that ranch two weeks ago. They went in there looking for one 16-year-old girl who was pregnant and had already had a child. Instead, they say, they found many.
Later, under testimony, a supervisor from Child Protective Services said that they found five underage girls who had gotten pregnant. Well, under cross examination, this attorney for the parents says, OK, you found five. Does that mean you have to take all of these children? Can't you just take the five into custody and let the rest of them go?
And with that, the supervisor said, no, we have to take all of them, because in interviewing these girls, these girls believe that they have to marry whenever the prophet tells them to. They believe you are never too young to get married and that "the highest blessing they can have is to have children."
So the state believes they cannot send any age girl back into that environment because they are all potentially victims of that future abuse. They can't send the boys back in there because they will grow up, according to the state, to participate in that abuse -- Campbell.
BROWN: And David, this is a hearing like nothing we have ever seen, and frankly, we can't see it. So, give us a sense for what it was like in that courtroom.
MATTINGLY: There were very few credentials given out to media to go into that courtroom. Fortunately, I have one of them. We're sitting in the back of the room, and on my left, the courtroom is filled up. There's about 50 members of the FLDS, along with about 20 of their attorneys and support team. On the right, there are literally scores of attorneys representing the interest of the children. Probably 60 or 70 of them.
And you would think there would be a great deal of chaos. But the judge in this case is really keeping things orderly, as orderly as possible, however, because every attorney in there has the right to object. They have the right to approach the bench. They have the right to ask questions, and believe me, most of them already have.
BROWN: And David, one attorney, this is what she told CNN. This is what she's up against. She doesn't have any family records for the child she represents, no access to the father. She can't speak with her client because the client is a toddler, and in many cases, the state still doesn't know who is related to who, or how they'll all related. How are they going to figure all this out?
MATTINGLY: It's probably going to end up with DNA. We heard today that they did do DNA swabs on the children. They may be calling for that from the parents, as well, to try and match up some of these families. They have over 130 kids that are ages four and under in custody. Not a single one of them has a birth certificate.
A lot of these children have been either unwilling or unable to identify their biological parents because of these big family structures they have. Some of these kids may not know who their biological parents are. So in a lot of ways, the state is exactly where it was two weeks ago, in trying to find out who are these children, and who do they belong to.
BROWN: All right. David Mattingly for us. David, thanks.
As we said, some of these children, you know, are just babies. They're too young to even talk to attorneys or anybody else. Family records are in chaos, as well. And with multiple wives, just figuring out who is who is incredibly complicated.
George Parnham is a top Texas defense attorney. He represented Andrea Yates when she was on trial, and he is with us now to help sort out some of the legal tangles here. And George, you've been involved in some really high profile cases, but have you ever seen anything like this?
GEORGE PARNHAM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don't think anybody has. This is absolutely without comparison. We have mass confusion and chaos, and I can only hold the deepest respect for this judge who is trying to sort out the various interests at play here.
BROWN: And as, you know, we heard from David, it's wild in that courtroom. And already, these attorneys for the kids are complaining about violations of their rights. Is the state in over its head here?
PARNHAM: Well, you know, I've given that some thought, Campbell. I believe that the state has taken on an endeavor that quite frankly it was unprepared for, as indicated by that officer, when he got in the compound saw a number of underage pregnant girls. Apparently, he had no idea that he would find that.
Obviously, Tom Green County courthouse is being deluged now by witnesses, lawyers, CPS workers and the judge just simply has to straighten things out. Financially, it's an absolute nightmare. If the intent of CPS is to find foster homes for these children, where in the world are you going to find a sufficient number of foster parents in that community to take care of the physical, emotional and mental needs of those children that know no other upbringing, other than what they've been exposed to in that compound.
BROWN: A serious challenge. All right, George, hang with us. We're going to continue with you in just a minute.
PARNHAM: Sure.
BROWN: And when we come back, I'll ask you what's going to happen, what you think is going to happen to all these children, where they could end up after foster care. We'll be back after this.
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BROWN: The incredibly complicated polygamy case in Texas has torn hundreds of families apart, and we're talking about it now with Texas attorney, George Parnham. And George, is the state on shaky legal ground right now in terms of having removed all of these children from their parents?
PARNHAM: Well, you know, the state has an obligation, quite frankly, Campbell. If there's evidence of child abuse, then the state has the obligation to go forward and to address that particular issue. Can it be done in an expeditious way, as opposed to the way that it was done? I believe that it can. I believe that, first of all, you know, you sort out the individuals that have been victimized by older men, and you certainly don't turn around, it seems to me, and take the 4-year-olds and put them in a compound and separate them from their mother.
BROWN: Right. George, the prosecutions, what kind of prosecutions can the state bring? Who is going to be facing what kind of charges?
PARNHAM: Well, there are a myriad of issues. Bigamy, for instance. Bigamy is a felony. And it can -- it has to be based on the fact that there was a valid marriage, either legal by way of courthouse definition, or common law, for such a charge to exist, in order for instance, that the individual who takes on the cohabitation with another woman...
BROWN: Right.
PARNHAM: ... that's a possibility. Aggravated sexual assault is a possibility.
BROWN: Right. A lot here.
Wow. Well, George, a lot more, I'm sure, we'll be, you know, hashing this over with you again in the future. Appreciate your time tonight.
PARNHAM: Thanks, Campbell, for asking.
BROWN: That's it for us.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
