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Nancy Grace

FLDS Compound Child Custody in Texas Courts

Aired April 17, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: A single desperate and secret phone call from a borrowed cell phone brings down the biggest child protective bust in U.S. history, 416 children, 139 women literally hauled off by the busload. In a stunning turn of events, the mothers actually leave their children behind, voluntarily returning to that secluded 1,700-acre Texas compound.
Headlines tonight: People packed, crowded courtrooms across San Angelo, compound women, volunteer attorneys, spectators all there for the unprecedented child custody battle over 416 Zion compound children. Evidence discovered from a secret compound safe revealing underage girls pregnant or married off to much older men and detailing some men with up to 22 -- that`s right, 22 -- wives. Tonight, unlike other states that turn a blind eye to polygamy`s child abuse of girls, girls as young as 13, the Lone Star state heads for a courtroom showdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huge news on day one of the polygamist ranch case in Texas. In a custody hearing today, the state revealed as many as 11 underage girls were pregnant or married. Authorities found these records locked in a safe during the raid on that compound. It sure doesn`t jibe with the story we`ve been getting from all the moms who`ve talking to the media. They deny abuse and say the government has unfairly snatched away their kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state is saying that children as -- young girls as young as 13 or 14 are selected and forced into marriage. Is that true?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is not true. I had a choice when I was married.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old were you when you married?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 18.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You definitely have a choice. Nobody is forced. We`re not abused. We`re not forced.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And everyone can say the same thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But are there any young women ages 16 and under who marry out here? And how often does that happen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not real common.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How young would you say is the youngest girl you`ve seen married out here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably 15.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, legal battle over 416 children kept behind the walls of a remote Texas compound, only 6 women of the estimated 600 members of the sect breaking rank and telling the awful truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My little girl, my arms were around her. Her arms were entwined over mine. And she looked up in my eyes and said, Mother, don`t let them take me. Come with me. I said, Marla (ph), you ask this lady. She walked right up to the lady and said, Please let my mother come. They would not let her. They wouldn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have a picture of one of your children?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I have lots of them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any with you today that you could just stop and show us?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn`t quite expecting this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know, but It is about the children, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is about the children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And even if you don`t talk to us or tell us your name, can you show...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give us -- give us a little bit of time to sort it out in here, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you finding that it`s organized inside or a little chaotic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No comment. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The complaint that the state has is they felt these children were in danger of being forced into marriage at ages 16 and younger, the girls in particular, and that`s why they moved in here. Are you saying...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was no force. No force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But do women age 16 and younger marry out here? Is that common?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just want the children back. That`s all we`re talking about tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Translation: That`s all they want to talk about. They don`t want to talk about girls as young as 13 years old being married off and forced to give birth. They don`t want to talk about all the children who you don`t even know how old they are, who their parents are, how the women don`t even know how old they are, no birth certificates. Nobody knows whose mother and father belongs to who. It`s the biggest mess in Texas child protective history.

Out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. He`s been at the courthouse all day long. Sean, what`s happening?

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, actually, something very significant. It is the first time the defense attorneys who have assembled here for this case have been able to or been interested in cross- examining a witness. And this is important because right now, Angie Voss (ph) -- she is with Child Protective Services -- is on the stand.

And let me tell you, Nancy, throughout the late afternoon, she really unleashed some very damming evidence against members of this sect. She is the one who first went on the compound after police secured it, said, Look, I want to sit down. I want to interview all girls who I perceive are 17 years and younger. They allowed her to go into a schoolhouse, where she sat down and talked to the young women.

Now, what we hear from Ms. Voss is she says that a number of those young girls said, Yes, there is somebody here named Sarah (ph) who is 16 and does have a child. Now, that`s important, of course, because it was that alleged phone call from a 16-year-old girl named Sarah who said that her husband had been -- had raped her and was physically abusing her.

Now, at one point, the women stopped cooperating with Child Protective Services. So at that point, they actually reached out to the leader of the sect, Merrill (ph) Jessop. Merrill Jessop said one word to them, I want you to cooperate. And immediately, all those young girls fell into line and once again began working with the state.

Also, we know that an officer testified on the stand today, said that he asked members to open the safe that was there. When they opened it, he found a list of names, detailing the family outline, if you will, the family tree. And they had a chance to find out that they believe that 10 or 11 girls either had a child when they were a minor or got married as a minor -- again, very significant information.

So what we expect to hear -- all of these defense attorney who say, Look, it has been extremely difficult preparing for a case like this -- we now have a chance to grill the person who`s making the accusations against this sect. And the reason this is important, this is called a 14-day hearing, Nancy, something that has to be held after children have been removed from a suspected abusive house. And if the judge in this case, Barbara Walter (ph), finds that there is not evidence, she will turn those children right back over to members of the sect and they`ll be right back on the YFZ ranch. So this is an important time.

GRACE: Very important question. Out to Michael Board, joining us from WOAI Newsradio, also at the hearing today, along with Sean Callebs. If Judge Walter finds that there is child abuse, generally speaking, and that is clearly shown by these documents, Michael Board, for young girls are married off and give birth at ages 13, 14 and 15 -- if she believes those documents which were found in a secret safe on that compound, is that enough, or does she have to find abuse in each separate case of 416 children?

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, that`s a very interesting question. And what we`re trying to figure out here -- and Nancy, you might be able to answer this question -- is in normal child abuse, child welfare cases, if there`s an abuse in the home, the child who is abused will be removed, as well as any other siblings who are in that house.

Now, in this case, their family consists of this whole ranch. So where do you stop? Do you remove all the kids from the house? Do you remove all the kids from the whole compound? Where do you stop? It`s an interesting question that we need to figure out, and it`s interesting to see how Judge Walter rules on this.

GRACE: Well, good luck getting any truthful testimony out of all of these women who came to the courthouse. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They took my little 7-year-old girl. They lied to us. CPS lied. And she told me a few days ago, she said, Mother, all they do is lie. They`re just telling us lies and lies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What lies?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said they`d tell us one thing and then do another thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say that we`re going to...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say we`re going to be together and they don`t let us be together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do 14, 15, 16-year-old girls get married here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are talking about our children right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand, but does that happen here? Are 16- year-old girls married to older men here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We -- this is about our children.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... about our children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you share a husband with many other wives?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot answer that at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is sacred to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I take that to mean you do share a husband with other wives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It may or may not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is life like here? I don`t think people comprehend...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know the definition of Zion?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heaven on earth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe you live in heaven on earth?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. This is what I do. It is heaven on earth to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not abused. I am not brainwashed. I am a living person. I have a hard time making CPS realize this. I am a human being with a heart. I am not abused. I have only been loved, worked with. My husband has been the most patient man in the world with me, loving me and helping me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, lady, you may call it sacred, but a lot of people call it child abuse. You`re seeing video from "Good Morning America." It`s the first time some of these women in a Texas polygamist compound speak, the sect members emotional but still managing to dodge allegations that underage girls are forced to marry much older men and then give birth. Right now, the biggest child protective bust in U.S. history has made its way to Texas courtrooms, 416 children at stake.

Out to the lines. Annie in New Mexico. Hi, Annie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you today?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These women that actually (INAUDIBLE) decided to go ahead and come with you all, is she getting -- are they getting to see their children?

GRACE: Good question. What about it, Sean Callebs? Are those women getting to see their children?

CALLEBS: No. Think about it, Nancy. If there are allegations of child abuse, physical or otherwise, the first thing the state has the obligation to do is to get the children out of that environment. They have to make the determination, is the situation safe.

Now, if the mothers have children that are 5 years old or younger, they are still allowed to stay at one of the shelters here in San Angelo and be with their children. However, if the kids are 5 years old or older, then they were forced to either leave and go back to the compound or they can go to that safe house. The reason -- we talked a bit about it last night -- the mothers are using cell phones, reaching out to members of the FLDS. There was concern that witness tampering was going on and that members of the FLDS could actually be intimidating these children into offering disinformation or not telling the truth to investigators.

GRACE: Sean, who is Jessop? You said one word from Jessop, and suddenly, all the women changed their tune.

CALLEBS: Yes, he is the -- he`s basically the leader of this sect out here, ever since Warren Jeffs was arrested -- now serving two terms in Utah, five years to life, for his role in arranging underage marriages, as well as being an accessory to rape. He is the acknowledged leader out here.

And we have -- people have been monitoring activity in court. Court is still going on behind me and could theoretically be going on until 10:00 o`clock Eastern time tonight, Nancy. That`s how serious this judge is taking this case. So one word from Jessop was all it took for all those women to step back into place and do exactly what the authorities told them.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author, you know, I`m all for freedom of religion. I once had an makeup artist who actually sent fruit and candy to the rock god. It was a big rock. Fine. I`d be mad if you didn`t. But that`s -- this is not about freedom of religion. This is about the systematic child abuse of hundreds of children. How do they think that it`s OK? How can these women stand by and say it`s sacred when the children are being married off at the tender ages of 13?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think what you see is that these women themselves were probably raped, molested and abused when they were young, which caused them to completely disassociate from the reality of how they feel and from what is going on around them. And because of that, they`re disconnected from the reality of this situation. Like the redhead we were just watching, her affect -- she looked so stunned. She`s in a complete disassociated state.

GRACE: Joining me right now, two very special guests, Carolyn Jessop, a former FLDS child bride, and Kathy Jo Nicholson. She was a student of Warren Jeffs.

Out to you, Carolyn Jessop. What do you make of what`s happening right now?

CAROLYN JESSOP, FORMER FLDS CHILD BRIDE: In the courtroom?

GRACE: Yes.

JESSOP: Well, I`m just glad that these children`s rights are being protected. And you know, the American public needs to realize this is about child abuse. This is about children. It`s not about religious freedom and it`s not about polygamy.

GRACE: Now, you were married to Jessop, correct?

JESSOP: Yes. I was Merrill Jessop`s fourth wife. I was with him for 17 years. It was a nightmare marriage.

GRACE: What happened?

JESSOP: He`s incredibly controlling. He was very abusive to his -- all of our children. He was an expert at pitting his wives against each other and getting us to tattle on each other so that he would feel he had more power. And it was just like living in a police state. From the minute you got up in the morning to the time you went to bed at night, there was always somebody standing over you, reporting anything that you did to him that they didn`t feel like you should do.

And he has a lot of power. I mean, you know, when I heard that these girls just snapped to, the minute he gave orders -- they don`t dare not. You know, you take him on and you`re looking at very significant consequences.

GRACE: Such as?

JESSOP: Well, he could use violence. And he also can use the violence -- well, with me, he used the violence on my children more than he did on me. And for me, that brought me to my knees. And so the other element is that he also -- he determines the status that his wife has in the family. And so if you have a lower status, the other wives are allowed to, you know, be abusive. You may be assigned to do the jobs that nobody wants to do -- and you know, just on and on. Your children will be deprived of doing the fun activities. So he just uses about every method and means he can, from financial to emotional abuse to physical abuse to whatever is necessary, to maintain the level of control that he feels like he has to have.

GRACE: Carolyn, when you say your children suffered violence, what exactly do you mean?

JESSOP: Well, you know, it was from multiple levels. Merrill did a form of water torture on babies, and it was a method he called breaking them, where he would take the baby and spank them until they were screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby face up under a tap of running water for a minute, maybe as long as a minute, and then he`d take a baby out, spank them again and then the process would just repeat. He`d do this until the baby was just so exhausted, it couldn`t fight anymore. He called it breaking them. And what the method was behind it was to instill an extreme level of fear for their father, but do it at an age that they wouldn`t remember the process that was used to instill that fear.

GRACE: What would the wives do as he did this to their babies?

JESSOP: You know, he did it to my oldest son, and I still can`t talk about it without crying. I witnessed it. I was terrified of him. I was still a -- I mean, I was in my -- I had barely turned 20. I was pregnant, with morning sickness and incredibly ill with my second baby. And I didn`t dare to say anything. I was afraid he would be worse and hurt my baby worse. But after that one episode, he never did it in front of me again. But I`m aware, you know, since then, from things that people have told me, that he did it with several of my babies. He just never did it in front of me again.

GRACE: Let me ask you, where are your children now?

JESSOP: I have all of them with me except for my oldest daughter. She -- the FLDS are experts in breaking down relationships between children and their mother. And I had to have professional help with this problem when I left to reestablish relationship with my children. I never was able to with my oldest daughter.

GRACE: With me is Carolyn Jessop and Kathy Joe Nicholson. Kathy, I see that her story is bringing you to tears. Why?

KATHY JO NICHOLSON, FORMER STUDENT OF FLDS LEADER JEFFS: Well, I had heard rumors of those stories. I just hadn`t heard it directly from a mother`s mouth. And she`s right that they -- the community, they are experts at breaking down relationships between the parents, the mothers especially, and their children. They`ve already started this process.

The state is, like you said, under obligation to investigate. And but -- this is nothing new to them. I`ve never once -- I have not, through all of this, heard any of the mothers say that the children are -- they`re worried about what the children are feeling. They`re worried about the children being missing. They`re worried that the children aren`t home. But not once have I heard them say, I wonder what my baby is doing?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s no easy way to ask this, but the allegation is, this has been an area, a ranch, a compound, if you will, where underage girls have had sex with much older men. There are a lot of child brides. Do you see that going on here at all?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not. That is not the facts. No facts to that. And it does not, at this point, have anything to do with what we want, that our children come back to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The biggest child protective bust now lands in a Texas courtroom, the Lone Star state stepping up to the plate, trying to hit a home run. At stake, the future of 416 children kept on a secluded ranch. Now documents from a secret safe on that compound reveal the family histories of 38 families, including one man with up to 22 wives, and the marriage, so to speak, of children as young as 13 years old.

Out to the lines. Karen in Nevada. Hi, Karen. Karen in Nevada, I think I`ve got you with me. Are you there? Let`s try Trudy in Oklahoma. Hi, Trudy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Listen, what I`d like to know is, if polygamy is illegal, why aren`t these people being charged with polygamy?

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Doug Burns out of New York, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta. Doug Burns, why has the government turned a blind eye to this for so long? The last big raid, I believe, was in Arizona in about 1953.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I mean, as far as polygamy, to answer the question specifically, these people are allegedly engaging in some type of ceremonies which are not designed to even be recognized by law. That`s what makes it so bizarre.

GRACE: When we get back, joining us the president of the Texas state bar and the lawyer for free for the FLDS children, Tom Vick (ph). Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you surprised to receive this much attention from the national media and others for the cause (ph) of your children?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love my children. (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Tom Vick, the president of the Texas state bar, also a pro bono -- for free -- lawyer for these FLDS children. Mr. Vick, thank you for being with us. Have you ever seen anything like it?

TOM VICK, PRO BONO LAWYER FOR FLDS CHILDREN: It`s absolutely incredible. It`s probably the most acute pro bono crisis probably in America, to say, all right -- actually, it was Friday afternoon when I got the call that says, We need 350 lawyers, and we need them in San Angelo on Wednesday and Thursday. And I`m telling you, it`s just heartwarming how the lawyers in this state have responded. They`re here. I got a call about Tuesday at noon to say, We have 400 volunteers. Don`t send me any more names. And I have another 100 names, probably, since we did that.

GRACE: With me Tom Vick, the president of the Texas state bar. Mr. Vick, are the children to a point where they`ll talk to their lawyers, or are they afraid?

VICK: The reports I get back from the ad litems are these children are still not opening up to the lawyers. And that`s understandable. They`re out there trying to have some kind of age-appropriate discussion with these kids. They`re not going to do that. They`re not going to do it the first time. It`ll take a while, if ever, before the kids will do that.

GRACE: Well, Mr. Vick, all I can say is thank God for Texas. Other states stand by and twiddle their thumbs. You`re doing something about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We`ve done a lot of speculating about it, about what`s going on or what has gone on in that polygamist ranch in Texas. But now we`re getting some concrete evidence. Prosecutors say that, yes, underage girls were pregnant and married. That`s the bombshell the state dropped day one of the largest child custody case in state history. The judge trying to decide, basically, are these kids going back to mom and back to that lifestyle? Or are they going to end up in foster care?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: This room belongs to me. I take care of the little girls in here. You can see their beds are empty. This is where we -- we have -- we hang our dresses. This is another bedroom. Several older girls live in this bedroom. This is their closet where they hang their dresses. They keep their books. They have vitamins. Come see our backyard. We`re out in our backyard. We have grass. They come out and play on the grass. This chest right here is for our shoes. It`s generally full of children`s shoes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: It`s such a bucolic setting, the trees, the sky, the blue sky, the birds singing. Bottom line, it`s an alleged polygamist sect of over 600 people. Behind the walls of this Texas compound, estimated 1,700 acres, girls as young as 13 forced into marriage and to give birth. We now learn of secret documents revealed in a safe where men have as many as 22 wives. And nothing has been done about it.

This isn`t the first time it`s happened in Utah, Arizona, Bountiful, Canada. It`s not unusual. But in the Lone Star state, someone is doing something about it. Based on a single and desperate phone call from a woman named Sarah.

Out to the lines, let`s go to Sandy in Florida. Hi, Sandy. Karen in California, hi, Karen.

KAREN, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. This is Karen. I just had a quick question and a comment.

GRACE: Yes, dear.

KAREN: We love you very much and you`ve got precious babies.

GRACE: Thank you very much. And when I hear these stories it just makes me fighting mad.

KAREN: Well, Nancy, no comment has been made, is there incest going on? Where are these women coming from? And were they born there and were they kids themselves? Were -- there`s not too many men and where are these women coming from?

GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. Don`t they come from other similar compounds and they build a new compound, usually in a remote area, many of them in the desert? And from what I understand, there are no birth certificates. They`re all born -- the children are born there on the compound. They don`t come to the hospital.

So now we don`t know who these kids belong to. We don`t know who their moms are. It`s just one big mess.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, and really I think that one of the tragedies that`s touched upon in that question, I`ve been out to Colorado City in the very rural part of Arizona. An allegation is, you know, there are young girls, young boys who are brought up within that society. However, when the boys get to be old teens they are basically competition for the older men who want more and more wives.

So basically they are forced out of the sect. They are told to go and repent from afar. And once they go out, they go into the world they know nothing about, and going out there and talking to investigators, what we`re told is these are children who are brought up to learn if you don`t do this, if you don`t abide by our religion, our traditions, then you`re going to go to hell. So once they are basically kicked out of the sect they believe that their lives are basically over.

So many times they go into a downward spiral into drugs, into a life on the streets so it`s really a very unhealthy way to bring folks up, which is one reason they have removed all of the young boys from this sect as well. We just heard in court a short while ago that the concern is that these boys are brought up to learn to be predators. So what they want to do is get these boys out and get them into foster homes, if, indeed, the state rules that they are growing up in an abusive environment.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, chief medical examiner, Dr. Bell, what about all the special needs children that the Texas -- the state of Texas has taken under their wing now? Many of them apparently with birth disorders. Is that from intermarriage? And what type of disorders would you expect from intermarriage?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it could run the gamut, anything from neural tube defects, cystic fibrosis, congenital heart anomalies, so just about anything. Certainly disorders that are what are called arsenal recessive in which they`re hidden in the parents, but when you have parents that have this hidden trait and they combine, the children have the disease full blown. And so that`s just one of the many types of diseases that you can get in this kind of situation.

GRACE: Back out to Kathy Jo Nicholson and Carolyn Jessop.

Kathy Joe, what would make these women give up their children and allow them to be married of at age 13 if they`re a girl or to be cast out, have your child thrown out, when he hits puberty?

KATHY JO NICHOLSON, FMR. STUDENT OF WARREN JEFFS, GREW UP IN FLDS COMMUNITY: I -- just mind control, mind conditioning, like Carolyn was talking about. I`ve heard those horrible stories about before the children can remember what`s happened to them, they`d be -- they`re so fearful of the priesthood leaders. And they are at fear for their souls and burning in eternal hell and damnation.

The women -- I feel for the women. I`m a mom, and it breaks my heart to see what they`re going through. But the children are the ones that are suffering. And I have not once heard any of the mothers say, which is what I would say, I wonder how my child is doing. I wonder what they`re thinking right now. I wonder if they`re -- if they`re OK. All I hear is, we need them home. We need them home.

I haven`t seen any toys through their tours on the compound. The family room that they showed was more like a church hall. The mothers live with their children in bunk beds. They have no relationship with their husbands. How could they possibly cultivate a relationship with their husbands other than fear when father comes home, it`s fear. These mothers cling to their children for the love that they need and live in fear of their husbands.

They`re being dictated to. And Merrill Jessop is, from what I understand, kind of traded his girls as bargaining chips to Rulon Jeffs when he was alive and very, very old. Lots of beautiful daughters were given to Rulon Jeffs. I`m not sure why.

GRACE: Did the daughters go to Jeffs willingly?

NICHOLSON: Because their father told them so, I imagine that they did.

GRACE: Joining us also tonight, Carolyn Jessop, a former FLDS child bride and now author.

Carolyn, I saw the women talking about how sacred their lives were. And the one kept dabbing at her eyes but there were no tears there. This whole thing is a big PR campaign on their behalf for them to all get back to that compound and do what Jessop is telling them to do.

CAROLYN JESSOP, FMR. FLDS CHILD BRIDE, AUTHOR OF "ESCAPE": Oh absolutely. That`s what I`ve seen in it from the beginning. They`re out there - they`re very scripted. They say exactly what Merrill sent them out to say. The words that they use many times you can tell they don`t even understand what that word means. If they`re asked a question, then I see terror in their eyes because they were not scripted on how to answer that. And they`re under some incredible pressure.

GRACE: Carolyn.

JESSOP: .to not give out information they shouldn`t.

GRACE: Do you know the day you were born? Do you have a birth certificate?

JESSOP: I do and my children do. And at that one time we did keep birth certificates. This not having birth certificates, that is a new thing. And I believe it started once Arizona started prosecuting men from impregnating underage girls. And we had some cases where they used birth certificates to prove that that was the case.

GRACE: I want to go back out to the lines.

Sandy in Florida, hi, Sandy.

SANDY, FLORIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

SANDY: My question is this. Do they pay taxes? I mean I pay taxes. You pay taxes.

GRACE: Excellent, excellent question, Sandy.

To Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio, in researching the FLDS I`ve learned about their bleeding the beast. The beast is America.

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Yes. The beast is us. It`s you and me, Nancy. We`re the beast. All outsiders or as they call them gentiles are the beast. What they did is -- you wonder how this group can afford to get this huge 1,700 acre ranch out here, this huge house out here. They sign all the wives up for welfare and then they take all the money for themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We are just pretty normal. We`re just normal people. We go to school. We teach the children to be clean. And we`re just normal. We don`t have TV. We don`t.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: I have a college degree.

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We don`t watch the TV and we don`t eat junk food.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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(NEWSBREAK)

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: With multiple wives and only one marriage recognized as legal, the other wives claim to be single moms with dependents, making them eligible for government aid. They collect welfare, lots of it. And it`s all legal. Money out of your pocket and into the polygamists`.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: This huge unprecedented child custody battle going down in various Texas courtrooms, never seen anything like it before. And it seems to me, Michael Board, that the women here are more anxious to get back to the husbands they share with the other 21 wives than they are in getting their children home and having the truth come out.

BOARD: Nancy, I`m sick and tired of hearing these women say, oh, they lied to us. CPS lied to us. We heard today from that CPS attorney saying that from the moment they got on to this compound, they were systematically lied to and deceived. I`m tired of their story.

GRACE: Sean Callebs, what is the demeanor of the women in court?

CALLEBS: It`s interesting because I got an e-mail from somebody monitoring inside and said it appears that some of the FLDS women are actually sleeping. So it`s difficult to say because they`re very stoic to a large degree. So really no outward emotion whatsoever.

GRACE: And, you know, Penny, I understand -- Penny Douglas Furr joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta -- that the women have been indoctrinated in this matter. And that`s their defense. But when they put their children out there to be abused, sexually abused at age 13, it`s no longer a defense for that. In my mind, they should be prosecuted. The whole kit and caboodle.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, if that`s the case I agree with you. But they`ve got to prove that they are being sexually abused. I think a vague telephone call from someone they can`t find is not going to be grounds to go after all these people.

GRACE: Really? Well, what about pregnant women who are ages 14? Would that suggest to you that there has been child abuse or do you think there`s been another immaculate conception out there on the ranch?

DOUGLAS FURR: Nancy, if that`s the case almost every high school in this country will have people arrested because there are plenty of 14, 15- year-olds that are pregnant. Does that mean child abuse?

GRACE: No, the 14 and 15-year-old is not going to be arrested. The 55-year-old man is the one to be arrested. And my question to you, Penny, is what`s wrong with that? Why shouldn`t they be arrested?

DOUGLAS FURR: Well, you`re going to have to prove it`s the 55-year- old man and it was against the will of the 14-year-old.

GRACE: No.

DOUGLAS FURR: Unless you`re going with statutory rape. At this point.

GRACE: Actually, statutory rape does not require consent.

DOUGLAS FURR: OK. However, what I`m saying, Nancy, is that you`re going to then have to check every high school in the country. I guarantee you there`s several 14 and 15-year-olds that are pregnant but you`ve got to prove that it was a 55-year-old man. What if it was another 15-year-old?

GRACE: Tom Vick, member of the Texas state bar and actually one of the lawyers who was offered his services, which I guarantee you go for a pretty penny for free in this case to help these children. Mr. Vick, I hardly think that the state of Texas has to go around and prove that there are other pregnant people in various high schools in order to prove this case. How do you intend, in a nutshell, Mr. Vick, to make your case?

TOM VICK, STATE BAR OF TEXAS PRO BOND LAWYER FOR FLDS CHILDREN: Well, of course, the (INAUDIBLE) who represent the kids don`t have to make any case at all. The CPS has to make the case. The hearing today -- that started today is a very narrow hearing, and that is, is there a sufficient proof under the Texas family code to warrant the removal of those kids?

GRACE: Right.

VICK: It`s not about polygamy. It`s not about religion. It`s not about anything else. It`s about child abuse. That`s what this is really about.

GRACE: You`re absolutely right, Tom Vick, Texas lawyer.

To Rick Ross, cult expert, do you think these women understand what they are doing?

RICK ROSS, CULT EXPERT, WWW.RICKROSS.COM: No, I don`t. I don`t think that they fully comprehend it in a way that you or I would or that the outside world would. They live in a kind of alternate universe where the information is filtered, where the environment is controlled. And that`s been the way it`s been for the FLDS for generations. So you have generation after generation being abused, facilitating the abuse of their children, and it`s perpetuated by parents.

And these parents believe that this is, as the one woman said, sacred. It is something to be cherished, protected. And they live in fear, as.

GRACE: Right.

ROSS: .as the former polygamist women have said. There is fear in their homes, and there is fear of the leadership. And this is not random child abuse. This is mandated child abuse.

GRACE: It`s amazing.

ROSS: .that`s been going on for a long time.

GRACE: .to me, Allison Arngrim, spokesperson for the National Association to Protect Children. I`m listening to Rick Ross, cult expert, and he`s absolutely correct. But it`s amazing to me that we stand by and allow these vast compounds to exist where child abuse is rampant. Not only that, we pay for it with our taxes.

ALLISON ARNGRIM, SPOKESPERSON, NATL. ASSOC. TO PROTECT CHILDREN: That`s right. And this is also particularly crazy because they keep saying our children, our children. But in 2003 they took a bunch of children from another compound in Utah and they kicked parents out of this compound and kept their children. So some of those 416 children they say are ours were kidnapped from other families. They`re kidnappers as well as rapists and child molesters.

GRACE: What`s so upsetting to me, Allison Arngrim, is you`ve got a child being sexually abused, a 13-year-old girl, and there`s nobody for her to go to. Nobody. The parents are in on it. The whole system is in on it within those compound walls.

ARNGRIM: And outside the compound walls. Like you said, a lot of states haven`t done anything about this.

GRACE: Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

ARNGRIM: People are calling the police in Arizona and Utah and they didn`t come. That`s why I`m amazed that in Texas somebody called the police and cried rape and they showed up.

GRACE: So in the big scheme, Bethany Marshall, it makes all of us responsible for what we have stood by and tolerated.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It makes all of us responsible. And at the end of the day, no matter how you -- analyze it, how you slice it and dice it, this is a group of people that is organized around the ritualistic exploitation and sexual abuse of children and those mothers are responsible for giving their children back by removing the offenders from the home and cooperating with CPS, which to this point they are refusing to do.

GRACE: To John Lucid, investigator and author, John, bottom line, if prosecution for child abuse, polygamy doesn`t work, I guess we can always count on the IRS and welfare fraud, huh?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Well, you know, you`ve got to remember these guys are not just polygamists, they`re pedophiles, too, if what they`re saying is true. But when you`ve got a lawful warrant to go on to that property, anything they found on that property can and will be used against them in a court of law no matter where that leads the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ma`am, could I have your name please.

MARIE, FLDS MEMBER: My name is Marie.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you give me your last name?

MARIE, FLDS MEMBER: I won`t give you my last name.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And you, ma`am?

DONNA, FLDS MEMBER: Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I don`t understand, why won`t you tell me your last names?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE on the hunt for parents who inspire. And now, tonight`s extraordinary parent.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The driver of the car that she was with is at speed of over 100 miles per hour, lost control of the car and the car slammed into a utility pole.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Seventeen-year-old passenger Kristen Norris and 19-year-old driver Joey Adams both died at the scene. Kristen`s tragic death would cast a shadow on her mother, Linda Barett, forever.

LINDA: It`s the most horrible thing when your child leaves and never comes back and you`re left to pick up the pieces.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To cope with her loss, Linda took action.

LINDA: I needed a way to channel the grief and also channel any anger away from me that I was feeling, you know, toward the circumstances of that evening. And I thought, what better way than to take this message into the schools and speak to teens.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Linda now speaks at schools throughout Ohio. Her goal, for teens to realize that their actions behind the wheel can sometimes have serious consequences.

LINDA: Every day the family will have to face the pain of their death. It`s never ending. The message is important because I don`t want them to become just a memory for their parents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember, Army Staff Sergeant Ryan Maseth, 24, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, killed, Iraq. A Green Beret on a second tour. Awarded the bronze star. Always wearing a smile. Loved academics. Pittsburgh Steelers. Dreamed of joining the Delta Force. Leaves behind parents Doug and Sheryl, twin brother Brandon serving the army, and brother Adam, also serving the army. All three served in Iraq.

Ryan Maseth, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight happy birthday to veteran defense attorney and friend of the show, Joe Lawless, and last but not least, happy birthday to my dad.

And tonight, as we head into Passover, hugs to Mac.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END