Return to Transcripts main page


Children of Polygamists; Pennsylvania Primary Nears; What the Democratic Candidates Need to Do to Win; Polygamy Custody Hearing: Judge Orders DNA Testing for All Children; Carter Meets with Hamas; Pope Pushes for Human Rights Worldwide and Meets with Jewish Rabbi

Aired April 18, 2008 - 20:00   ET


There is lots of news tonight. Some of it is breaking right now.

First, we begin that final stretch to the all-important Pennsylvania primary. The polls open there in just three days. The candidates are going full tilt and going at the issues and each other no holds barred.

As for Pope Benedict, once again today, he's taking historic first steps. And we're going to have those details, too.

But we begin tonight far way in Texas, where, at this very moment, a court is still hearing testimony following the raid at that polygamist sect. The judge's task right now, a gut-wrenching decision, whether to keep hundreds of children away from their mothers or take the chance of returning them to their homes at the compound and what some say is the risk of sexual abuse by the men of that polygamist sect.

The hearing on that custody decision has been going on now all day. Some of the testimony addressed at what age girls in the polygamist sect are married to older men. There's also been discussion about the ages of pregnant girls removed from the compound. Were they 17? Were they younger when they conceived?

Well, our David Mattingly has been inside the courtroom all day long. And he just stepped out now to join us -- David.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, sometimes this rowdy courtroom in the last hour or so has been quiet as a church. And that's because we have been listening to testimony from four women, four mothers and wives from the compound, who are telling the judge they will do anything they absolutely have to do to get their children back from the state.

And they say that means parenting classes, psychological evaluations. They say they will even move away from the compound if they have to in order to get their children back.

These are women who say that sometimes they have held jobs outside the compound. One of them says they went to college. One has a high school education. One has many children and has left the compound quite frequently to go care for a sick daughter. And one was telling us that this was an atmosphere of love that they were raising their children in at the compound. When asked to define what she thought abuse was, this woman couldn't even define the word abuse.

So, this is a very risky move. Attorneys then are -- dozens, scores of attorneys in that courtroom, all of them have the right to cross-examine these women. They are coming back asking questions about, how many teenage mothers do you see at the compound? How many teenage wives do you see at the compound?

Some of these women are having a difficult time coming up with any numbers or any recollections of seeing this happening. One woman, however, did say she that knows of about a dozen women under who are the age of 18 who were married at the compound, but, again, no one who could actually say age 16 or under of these girls having children.

So, again, that's a source of contention, a lot of back and forth, a lot of digging for information. I'm not sure that the attorneys on cross-examination are hearing exactly what they want to hear here.

Also, an attorney representing the men put a religious studies expert on the stand. He told the court that, in his learned opinion, after studying the FLDS, that the idea of young women marrying older men, these underaged women marrying sometimes middle-aged men, he says is not very common at all and that women believe that they do have a choice about who and when they marry -- Campbell.

BROWN: Well, David, give us the other side now. Walk us through the testimony that the state presented today. Give us the highlights.

MATTINGLY: The state's witness on the stand today was a psychiatrist who had experience with the children at Waco.

And he was talking to some of the women from the compound here at the shelter. And he says that they come from a very authoritarian environment, so authoritarian that some of these women have not developed the proper skills they need to make their own decisions. He talked about one situation where he sat down and was talking to one of the mothers at the shelter and said, "May I take your pulse?"

He said, the woman was not able to answer because she did not know what the right answer was supposed to be. So, he felt that that was a good example of how some of these women are not prepared to make their own decisions. And he was getting to the point that while they believe they may have a choice, he says they are coming from an environment where the choice is not really a choice, because the consequences would be so bad if they went against the wishes of the elders or against the wishes of the prophet, that this is not really a choice at all. Even though they believe they are doing the right thing, they really, he says, do not have to choice they believe they have.

BROWN: All right, David, a lot more to come from there, I know -- David Mattingly for us tonight. We move on, though, to another strange twist tonight which could lead back to why authorities raided the compound in the first place. The investigate into the polygamist sect is expanding to Colorado, where police say they have arrested a woman for filing a false report.

And the Texas Rangers say they want to know more about her.

Gary Tuchman has been looking into this for us.

And, Gary, what is this connection between this 33-year-old woman, Rosita Swinton, and Sarah, the 16-year-old girl who sparked these raids in Texas?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a bizarre and strange twist, Campbell. The possibility exists that Rosita Swinton, the woman you see there, who has nothing to do with this FLDS Church, may have been a woman who made calls and pretended she was the 16-year-old girl named Sarah which started this raid from happening.

The probable cause that authorities had was, they got a call, they said, from a 16-year-old Sarah, who is named Sarah, who said she was being abused at the FLDS ranch. But they have never found Sarah. Now they're investigating whether this woman -- we don't know why she would do it, but she has been arrested this week for making other phony phone calls in the state of Colorado.

She was released on bond. But the Texas Rangers actually when out to Colorado to question her about whether she made the calls involving this girl Sarah. And the possibility is she did, because right now the Texas authorities say she's a person of interest in this case.

BROWN: So, what impact could that have? Because that's new. They just put out the statement about that shortly.

TUCHMAN: I think a lot of defense attorneys would like to say, then, this case should go bye-bye.

It probably won't happen, because, under legal rules, you need probable cause to have a raid, but you need good faith. It's very possible that police can argue, we had good faith. We thought this was a 16-year-old. Also, it involves children. Children also get the benefit of the doubt. So, it's very unlikely, even this 33-year-old woman, who has nothing with the FLDS, made these call, that the case won't be dropped because of these factors.

BROWN: But, Gary, we know that several authorities have listened to the phone calls reportedly by this Sarah. So, how could this woman have convinced authorities she is part of this secretive sect, when she's hundreds of miles away?

TUCHMAN: I will tell you a little bit about these phone calls that I know. She doesn't speak a lot on these phone calls. She cries. The girl whimpers. Or the woman whimpers. She said things here and there. It is very possible, although she sounded like a teenager, according to everyone who has listened to the calls, that perhaps she wasn't. She may be allegedly -- what some people are saying is, she's so disturbed, that she disguised her voice, wanted to get in the news somehow, and got involved in this.

You may be saying, why would she do this -- I think that is what everyone is saying -- if she did indeed do this? Because, obviously, she hasn't even been arrested for this yet, although she's considered a person of interest. But people do crazy things in this world, Campbell. So, it wouldn't shock and surprise me if the allegations that are being made against her are correct.

BROWN: All right, Gary Tuchman for us tonight -- Gary, thanks.

And I know that you're going to have a lot more on "A.C. 360" coming up 10:00 Eastern time. Appreciate it.

As you have seen, it has taken an army of lawyers to make this work and a very patient and take-charge judge. So, how will she decide the fate of more than 400 children? That's when we come back.


BROWN: We return now to the Texas polygamy case in which hundreds of lawyers are representing more than 400 children. And many more attorneys have been arguing the case for the parents, from whom the children were taken in the raid just two weeks ago.

We're going to get more now from someone who helped arranged legal representation for the children, a massive task. And he was actually in the courtroom today.

Attorney Tom Vick is the director of the Texas Bar Association and former chairman of the bar's family law section.

Today, the judge tried to keep a tighter rein on the courtroom and narrow the testimony down to the one legal question that really matters here. Does the state have enough evidence to keep holding these kids? Or do they have to send them back to the ranch?

So, how is she going to decide that, Tom?

TOM VICK, DIRECTOR, TEXAS STATE BAR ASSOCIATION: Well, Campbell, she's heard a lot of testimony from a lot of witnesses. She has some documents.

I believe That she has necessary evidence already before her to justify a variety of results. The lawyers have done a really good job. They have argued their clients' interests. They have made all the objections they need to make.

And so she has good evidence, tested evidence before her, and I think she's going to be well equipped to make this decision.

BROWN: We just heard a few moments ago that authorities are investigating whether the initial call, the thing that started this all, from that 16-year-old, Sarah, that it may have actually been made by this woman in Colorado. If this Sarah doesn't exist, what does that do to the state's case?

VICK: I think that has almost no import on this at all.

BROWN: Why not?

They had an affidavit that had -- well, they had an affidavit that had enough facts in it to warrant going in and extricating these children. So, the issue before the court is, do -- does the state now have enough evidence to warrant continuing to keep the children out?

And, of course, they have learned a lot about what's gone on, on at that ranch since the kids have come out. They have interviewed these children. They have found documents that support all of the allegations that they have put out there. And, of course, then they had Dr. Perry come in and tie up exactly what they wanted to do this afternoon.

BROWN: And, Tom, they have learned a lot. And, on the one hand, there's been this testimony about a culture of sexual abuse happening on the ranch, with up to 20 teenage girls married to or pregnant by older men.

On the other hand, though, there are a lot of very young girls and boys, infants, even, who these state's experts say have no signs of abuse. As this is unfolding, are there different rulings that the judge might make for different groups of the kids, a chance that maybe some of these younger children may be sent back to the ranch, ultimately?

VICK: Sure.

She has lots of options, Campbell. And, in fact, the state's own witness conceded that it might cause the young kids, the kids five and under, more harm to be separated from the parents than it would to go back to the ranch. So, if the judge makes a ruling that, for instance, we are going to send the five and under and perhaps the special-needs kids back with their parents, and then we're going to keep everyone else out, she has evidence already in the record that would support a decision like that.

Now, I have to say, to the contrary, if she decides to take them all out, she has evidence that would support that decision as well.

BROWN: All right, Tom Vick, appreciate your time tonight. Thanks.

If you are counting -- and we are here at the ELECTION CENTER -- it is about 83 hours until the primary polls open Tuesday in Pennsylvania. It is all about the issues. And polls show voters are preoccupied with the big ones, the economy, Iraq, and health care, and which client -- which, candidate, rather they believe would do the best job at handling those issues.

We have got the latest on what the candidates are doing to win that confidence -- when we come back.


BROWN: We are heading into the very last weekend before the Pennsylvania primary on Tuesday. And while Pennsylvania may not decide the nomination, it will be a crucial test of strength for both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

For very different reasons, both candidates face extraordinary pressure to defy expectations. So, they will be campaigning hard over the next few days, making a big push to get out the vote. They are also focusing on the contests that come after Pennsylvania.

So, let's get started now with the "View From 30,000 Feet."

Hillary Clinton started the day in Pennsylvania, then flew to North Carolina, where Democrats vote on May 6 and where she's playing catchup to Barack Obama. Bill Clinton stayed behind in Pennsylvania, hitting mostly small rural town that could hold the keys to victory for his wife. Barack Obama was all Pennsylvania all the time today. He also picked up a couple of big endorsements. We will have more on that coming up.

Michelle Obama has been dispatched to Indiana, another state with a primary on May 6. Chelsea Clinton is in Indiana, as well, campaigning for her mother. John McCain attended a prayer breakfast in Washington this morning. He will hit the road next week for a major campaign swing.

And we have new polling information about Pennsylvania tonight. Our poll of polls shows Senator Clinton clinging to a five-point lead. It's been like that for several days now -- nine percent of the voters still undecided. So, what are the candidates doing? Both say they want to focus on the issues and not get distracted, but, in fact, they are campaign -- complaining, rather, about who is doing the most complaining.

Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley is in Philadelphia for us tonight -- Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Campbell, the Clinton campaign thinks they may have gotten a little bit of traction out of that Wednesday night debate where Barack Obama came under fire and was very defensive. They also think there may be a little bit of traction in what's happened since.


CROWLEY (voice-over): Debating the debate, day two.

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some of my opponent supporters and my opponent are kind of complaining about the hard questions. Well, having been in the White House for eight years and seeing what happens in terms of the pressures and the stresses on a president, that was nothing.


CROWLEY: Her blatant hypocrisy here is stunning, said an Obama spokesman, reminding reporters of this.

H. CLINTON: If anybody saw Saturday Night Live maybe we should ask Barack if he's comfortable and needs another pillow. I just find it kind of curious that I keep getting the first question on all of these issues. But I'm happy to answer it.

CROWLEY: By afternoon, reporters asked Obama to chime in. He shook his head. "You tell me," he said, "who has been complaining about the press over the last six months."

It's more than the ridiculous discussion, it seems. This is Clinton's superdelegate strategy.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a contact sport. If you don't want to play, keep your uniform off.

CROWLEY: The idea is to convince the lawmakers and party officials likely to settle this race that she is a battle-hardened pro and he is an unknown, untested rookie who can't withstand a Republican assault. Certainly, there's been the taste of fall.

In Erie today, Obama, as he often does, campaigned past Clinton to engage the presumptive Republican nominee.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just yesterday, John McCain went on television, I want to get this right, went on television and said there has been, great progress economically over the last seven-and-a-half years.

CROWLEY: Furious, the McCain campaign accused Obama of being recklessly dishonest, noting, McCain also said any economic progress is no comfort to those suffering now.

As Obama campaigned through another middle-class venue, he countered Clinton's rookie strategy with a continuing slow roll of endorsements, today, a trio of Washington insiders with hefty resumes, former Georgia Senator and foreign policy heavyweight Sam Nunn, former Oklahoma Senator David Boren, and former Clinton Labor Secretary Robert Reich.

Superdelegate message: The train is moving.


BROWN: And, Candy, it is all about the superdelegates at this phase, to the point where I have heard some people say that Pennsylvania almost doesn't matter. But it does matter in terms of expectations, perception, and the margin of victory, doesn't it?

CROWLEY: Absolutely, it matters. I mean, it matters in a couple of ways.

First of all, probably, the strongest argument you can make to a superdelegate is, hey, I have got the most pledged delegates and I have got the popular vote. So, you know, moving ahead to these next 10 contests, beginning in Pennsylvania, which has the largest amount of pledged delegates for a single state, it is enormously important, not just who wins the states, but how many pledged delegates they get and how they can rack up the popular vote.

For Clinton, it would be catastrophic if she doesn't win here. This is her state. It is full of a lot of voters that have voted for her in the past, working-class, older female. For Barack Obama, obviously, he needs to do well here. He needs to keep his lead in the pledged delegates up. So, a blowout here would hurt Obama.

A blowout for Obama here, even a small win, would hurt Hillary Clinton. So, in the end, they all matter, because all of these results are, in and of themselves, a signal to the superdelegates.

BROWN: Candy Crowley -- as always for us, Candy, thanks.

Coming up, we're going to find out who those Pennsylvania voters really are, and we will also drill down and see what issues they care about most and which candidate they trust to deliver.


BROWN: This weekend, the Democrats will be trying to make as many stops, shake as many hands, and win over as many Pennsylvania voters as possible. But exactly which voters do they need most, and why?

Well, we have asked Tom Foreman to break out his maps and show us.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pennsylvania is expected to be the kind state to Hillary Clinton, because it has a lot of the type of voters she's been doing well with.

Almost 16 percent of Pennsylvanians are 65 or older. They are more likely to be typical rank-and-file Democrats. And that's been a power base for her. Only Florida has a bigger elderly population. The median household income, about $40,000. That's below the national average. Again, if you have lower income, you tend to favor her.

If you have a college degree, you are more likely to support Obama. But only 22 percent of Pennsylvanians have graduated from college. And the population is 85 percent white. That means Obama will not enjoy that big boost he's had in states with larger black populations.

All of these things are real advantages for Clinton, which Obama is hoping he can counter in part by maybe drawing in large numbers of those new moderate voters, just like he has in other states -- Campbell.

BROWN: And, Tom, the head of the Democratic Party still pushing hard for the superdelegates to just get this contest over with.

Let's listen to what he had to say.


HOWARD DEAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: There's about 65, roughly, percent of the superdelegates have voted. There's about 320-some-odd left to vote. I need them to say who they're for starting now. They really do need to do that.

We cannot give up two or three months of active campaigning and healing time. We have got to know who our nominee is. And there's no reason not to know after the last primary on June 3.


BROWN: So, Tom, kind of mathematically, what hope does Hillary Clinton have at this stage?

FOREMAN: Well, you know, Campbell, it is a good point to say mathematically, because, mathematically, it's tough.

This whole race is down to 10 states and territories -- they're in dark blue here -- and the undeclared superdelegates that Howard Dean is talking about. In all, about 900 or so delegate votes are still up for grabs. And look at Obama's lead.

We have said this for weeks, and it's still true. Clinton must do better than 10 percent across the board from here on out -- at least, that's how the math has got to work out -- if she wants to be more or less just tied with him by convention time. And that would force the decision into the hands of those superdelegates anyway.

So, some Democrats are saying, why prolong this inevitable tough choice? Do it now and quit letting John McCain roam around unopposed, looking presidential, and rising in the polls? Obviously, that's something the Clintons don't want to hear -- Campbell.

BROWN: Yes, right.

Tom Foreman for us -- Tom, thanks.

Heading into Tuesday's all-important Pennsylvania primary, the state is a mirror of the entire country when it comes to issues. Check this out. This is a poll of Pennsylvania Democrats. It shows the economy is issue number one, followed by the war in Iraq and health care. And reinforcing what Tom Foreman just told us, the poll also reveals Barack Obama winning among voters in their mid-30s and younger, as well as among college graduates and newly registered voters, while Hillary Clinton wins among voters over 55, plus those with less education, lower incomes, and, in other worse, I guess the blue-collar workers we have been hearing so much about.

So, who do the voters trust to actually fix these problems? And that's where I want to start tonight, with our political panel. "TIME" magazine correspondent Amy Sullivan is joining us from Southfield, Michigan. She is the author of "The Party Faithful: How and Why Democrats Are Closing the God Gap." "Washington Times" deputy editorial page editor Tara Wall -- Tara Wall -- sorry -- is in Washington, D.C., for us. She's a former Republican National Committee director of outreach communications. And here in the ELECTION CENTER is "TIME" magazine editor at large and senior political analyst Mark Halperin.

Welcome to everybody.

Mark, why don't I start with you? I have got these numbers here, 200,000 manufacturing jobs lost in Pennsylvania since 2000. The economy really is the issue there. And we have been seeing both candidates with these sort of "I feel your pain" photo-ops, I think, Obama out with factory workers today in Erie, Pennsylvania.

But -- but, honestly, on the issues, on the policy stuff, these guys are pretty much in lockstep. So, as you go into the final days in Pennsylvania, how do you decide?

MARK HALPERIN, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST, "TIME": Well, they are in lockstep, and neither of them is doing a very good job of explaining what they are for. I follow this pretty closely. And if you said to me, quick, what does Senator Obama say he's going to do about the economy, what does Senator Clinton say, it is not really clear. They have some laundry list of proposals.

I think neither of them is breaking through all that much on policy, neither on photo-ops. But I think what matters to most voters is, who do they trust to fight for them every day using the levers at the White House? And, again, I think, in that score, it remains to be seen. I think, if either of them closes strong on that point in the last two days, they will win this primary.

BROWN: You know, Amy, I will ask you this. Do you think, given all the attention and the time spent on this, that anybody is still undecided in Pennsylvania right now?

AMY SULLIVAN, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Well, we know from the polls that some people are. But I think Mark is right.

There's no real substantive difference here, particularly on something like the economy, which is why we have kind of turned to these weird measures of who do you think relates to you better? Who can really understand your economic concerns? And we look to things like, who can bowl? Who can drink a shot?


SULLIVAN: Who knows which cheese to order with their cheesesteak?

And that's not really a good measure. It's more of a personality profile, which isn't really getting us to the crucial answer that voters really have.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Right. Tara, you know, we are heading into the weekend too, where people are probably going to tune out for a couple of days, I think. You know, is there anything that either Clinton or Obama could do before Tuesday that's really a game changer? TARA WALL, FMR. OUTREACH DIR., REPUBLICAN NATL. CMTE.: Yes. Well, you know, they're doing everything they possibly can. In fact, Obama is getting a little bit of criticism by Democrats in Pennsylvania as we reported, because he's just -- I guess he's just blasting the media with all of these ads that are just -- in some people's opinions, overkill. But he probably has to, given a little bit of some of the lack of support he's gotten because of his comments.

I think, too, though, that there were some points that have been made by John McCain as it relates to the economy. Jobs are one issue, and the Democrats do look the same in that area, except for Hillary Clinton's green job proposal, whatever that means. Most of them -- most of the Democrats are focusing on strengthening unions and things of that nature as it relates to jobs. But taxes and the tax issue is going to become and isn't a big issue, I think, that's going to be at the forefront as John McCain mentioned going into the base that we saw this week. And you will see some distinguishing difference between those tax plans.

BROWN: All right. Guys, stay there. When we come back, I want to ask you if Hillary Clinton pulled the rug out from under her campaign's central argument with just three little words.


BROWN: The CNN ELECTION CENTER is the place to be next Tuesday. I'm going to be here along with the best political team on television as the votes are counted. Primetime coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern time. You will not want to miss it.

But just days before the voting starts, Hillary Clinton's may have thrown away her best card. Let's get back to our political panel. We got "Time" magazine's Amy Sullivan, the "Washington Times"'s Tara Wall, and "Time" editor-at-large Mark Halperin.

Amy, Hillary Clinton's last big argument has been electability. That she can beat John McCain, he can't. And it was the central theme of Wednesday's debate. Let's listen to what she had to say.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, MODERATOR: Do you think Senator Obama can do that? Can he win?

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, I think that I can do a better job. I mean, obviously, that's why I'm here. I think I am better able and better prepared in large measure because of what I've been through and the work that I've done, and the results that I've produced for people and the coalition that I have put together in this campaign.


BROWN: So Amy, let me ask you, for any fence sitting superdelegates out there, did she with that yes, yes, yes just undermine her main argument?

SULLIVAN: Well, it certainly has gone against the kind of case she's been making for herself with superdelegates that Barack Obama simply cannot win in November. There she just kind of blew it up, but I think it was really the first step towards reconciliation in the party. And it was the first admission on her part that, you know, the last six weeks have been very tough for Barack Obama, and yet he has continued to widen his lead in the national polls and really shrink her lead in Pennsylvania. And this may be a recognition that the end of the road is very near for her.

BROWN: And Mark, I want to go to you and ask about John McCain quickly, which is because while we are all focused on Pennsylvania, he's going out next week and starting his forgotten -- I think it's called the Forgotten American Tour, where he's visiting poor parts of the country, African-American communities, places generally Republicans don't go or don't seek out votes, and maybe he is not seeking out votes. But what is he doing? What's the strategy behind this?

MARK HALPERIN, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think this is going to be a close election no matter who the Democratic's nominee. I think the two parties are pretty easily divided. McCain has some strength.

If he wins this election, I think we may look back at this period and say, he won it during this period before the Democrats settled on a nominee. Not just because they are fighting, but because he's doing things like reaching out to groups to show that he is trying to be more inclusive, to try to send a different message than he thinks the people saw in President Bush.

President Bush did this, too. Didn't win a lot of minority votes, but did win a lot of those white suburban votes who want to see an inclusive president.

BROWN: All right. Got to end it there. Mark, to Amy and to Tara, thank you all. Appreciate it.

WALL: You bet.

BROWN: Something the Bush administration tried hard to prevent just happened anyway. Jimmy Carter is at the very center of the controversy. When we come back, did he hurt U.S. policy?


BROWN: Breaking news in Texas now where a judge has just ruled in the custody case involving the hundreds of children taken from the polygamist compound in Texas. The hearing just now ended. Our David Mattingly has just gotten out of the courtroom. David, what can you tell us?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, all 416 children that were taken from the compound will remain for now in state custody. The judge just issued a ruling said that out of necessity they must keep the state (ph) kids in state custody.

She took another step, however, and she's asking for maternity and paternity testing, DNA testing for each child. She is going to ask that this be expedited. They are going to be sending a mobile lab around to make sure all the kids are tested. All the mothers who were still with the kids will be tested, and the other parents as well will be tested in Eldorado.

She appealed to the parents to do this, saying that the people that will be seeking the DNA testing will also be asking them for identification and possibly a fingerprint. So she's warning them up front that they will be requiring a lot more information from them hopefully to sort out these complicated family structures that they have. Because now, two weeks since they took custody of these children, they have yet been able to positively match each and every child to their biological parents.

These DNA testing will go a long way to make sure they're able to do that and proceed with these cases. But for now, all 416 of these kids are going to remain in state custody -- Campbell.

BROWN: And David, you have to wonder, I guess, how many are going to cooperate given that they don't really know who the parents are in a lot of cases, right?

MATTINGLY: These children don't know who their biological parents are in some of these cases. You would have to think that the parents would know. And if these DNA testing is the route that they're going to have to go to eventually get these children back, but this is the very beginning of these steps. Eventually, every single one of these 416 cases will be scrutinized and looked at and the courts will make a decision on each of these children.

But for now, this was a 14-day hearing that was necessary by the state. Normally, it's not a big deal because usually you just have one or two kids taken into custody. This 14-day period involved 416. So we had scores of lawyers in the courtroom. The judge actually thanking them for the way they conducted themselves through this. It could have been terribly chaotic, but you saw what happened in just two days. We went through all the testimony and got a surprise ruling right here at the end of the day.

BROWN: All right. David Mattingly for us tonight. David, thanks. And we're going to have much more at the top of the hour on "LARRY KING LIVE."

Right now, though, Tom Foreman is joining us with other major headlines of the day. Hi, Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Campbell. There has been more deadly fighting reported in Irag. Violence in the Sadr City neighborhood of Baghdad continuing through the week. At least seven more people killed today. Scores injured in sporadic day-long fighting between Iraqi security forces and the militia loyal to cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. In Damascus, Syria, former President Jimmy Carter seen here arriving for a meeting with representatives of Hamas. Carter's meetings this week with top Hamas officials have been condemned by the U.S. government and Israel, which consider Hamas a terrorist group. Carter has said he is not negotiating with Hamas, but trying to open communications between the various sides.

And we're now getting a clearer picture of Senator John McCain's income bracket. Tax returns released today show earnings of $740,000 for the last two years. Far less than his Democratic rivals, but that's only part of the story. The senator's wife Cindy is said to be worth around $100 million, most of it from her father's beer distribution empire. The McCain's have almost always filed separately. Mrs. McCain's returns were not made public -- Campbell.

BROWN: It will be interesting to see if there is pressure for her though to release those returns. We'll be watching that one. Tom, thanks very much.

And we just got the breaking news from David Mattingly. A judge ruling in the polygamy case, custody case in Texas. Larry King will have much on that at the top of the hour. Won't you, Larry?

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": We will, Campbell. We'll follow up on this to discuss 416 kids taken from the YFC Ranch who will remain in state custody. The very latest at the top of the hour. Don't go away.

BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you then.

And the "War Room" tonight, counting down to Tuesday's Pennsylvania primary. Our top political strategist game out with the candidates absolutely must do to win this important battleground. That's next.


BROWN: A weekend and a day to go. We are counting down to Tuesday in Pennsylvania. So what do the candidates have to do in these final hours to win? Let's head now into the "War Room" which is our nightly look at the campaigns, how they are strategizing and gaming out ways to crush each other.

And with me tonight, Republican strategist Leslie Sanchez, along with Democratic strategist David Bonior, who is the campaign manager for John Edwards. Hey, guys.



BROWN: David, Hillary Clinton seems to be closing with a pretty clear message that she can take a punch and maybe Obama can't. Let's listen to what she had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Did some of you see that debate the other night? Well, I know that some of my opponents' supporters and my opponent are kind of claiming about the hard questions. Well, having been in the White House for eight years and seeing what happens in terms of the pressures and the stresses on a president, that was nothing.


BROWN: They were going into the final push in Pennsylvania. Is that really her most effective message at this stage, David?

BONIOR: Well, she did it well, I thought, and how she did it. And she was being sarcastic, but she was really pointing out the fact that she's been through this now for, as she pointed out, 16 years. She's got some baggage, she points out, but she's also said and very forcefully and clearly that, you know, everything is out on me. I'm a fighter. I'm here for working folks, and I can be your best candidate.

The problem with her argument though is that most Democrats who are running in very tough districts and tough states feel that they would rather run with Barack Obama because of her high negatives, number one. Secondly, they think that she would be a detriment to the ticket. And so, that's what she's fighting. And basically, for her to win this nomination, she's got to basically win out, I think, the next 10 races.

And that, we have between now and the first of June and close the gap on the total vote, which is about 700,000 behind on.

BROWN: Right.

BONIOR: And do well. If she wins the next 10, she comes close to winning as many states as he does, but she still won't have enough the same amount of delegates pledged as he will. And so, this can be really difficult for her. This is a very difficult effort.


BROWN: Right. Leslie, let me ask you. I want to focus on Pennsylvania a little more narrowly. Because if he has an opening in Pennsylvania -- Obama, voters have doubts about Clinton's character. According to the latest polls, they show that she has a trust issue. So if you are on Obama's team, how do you take advantage of that perception that's out there?

SANCHEZ: You know, the biggest advantage he would have is taking the play from the Hillary Clinton playbook in the sense of casting doubt on the Clintons. If you look behind those polling numbers, it's the fact you have so many Democrats who do not want to see the Clintons much on the tour, much less in the White House again. And that has to do with the antics, the scandals, the corruptions, and the list goes on and on. And they don't necessarily feel that's the best approach for the Democratic Party looking forward. And I have to agree with David's point. If you interview a lot of conservative Democrats, even in states like Texas, you know, New Mexico, they are very concerned that Hillary Clinton on the top of the ticket would really kind of depress voter turnout and ultimately affect a lot of down ballot races. But I think what Hillary Clinton has done incredibly well, kind of shifting a little bit, is lowering the expectations in terms of how she took a 22-point lead in Pennsylvania reduced to five points, and she's still, you know, the underdog in this. It's really a masterful job.

BROWN: OK, quickly guys. We know it's a superdelegates game at this point. DNC Chairman Howard Dean has basically said enough is enough. Everybody, put your cards on the table. Tell us which way you are going to go. We've got to get this done before June. We can't let it go to a convention.

So what is your final pitch, David? Let's say you're managing superdelegates for Hillary Clinton. What are you telling these guys right now?

BONIOR: Well, I'm telling them, number one, Barack Obama isn't ready to be president because he's not been through a difficult race like this. Number two, look at what -- how he's pulling right now in really key states like Missouri, Florida and Ohio. He's falling behind John McCain. And even in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania and New Jersey, he's only even with them.

So you've got to look at those kinds of factors...

BROWN: Right.

BONIOR: ... and whether or not he can take a punch. I mean, that's the case that she's got to make but, again, she's undermined by the fact that she's on the ticket. At the head of the ticket, she just really energizes a lot of Republicans across this country.

BROWN: Right.

BONIOR: OK, Leslie, real quick. Give it to me from the Obama camp's prospective. What's the message quickly to superdelegates.

SANCHEZ: You don't want another type of Clinton administration. I think the country's tired of that. They don't want the legacy of that. And look at the real numbers. He's somebody who has a message of hope and aspiration. You know, you don't know what you are going to get with the Clintons other than more of the same.

And I think that he could continue to cast doubt, show he has the momentum and ultimately undermine what Hillary Clinton has done is build this big ruse that she is really competitive, when increasingly it shows that she's not.

BROWN: All right. Leslie and David, thanks to you both. Appreciate it.

BONIOR: Thank you. BROWN: You've got to hear the story behind this next picture. This is a history-making meeting between a Jewish rabbi and a Catholic Pope who wants to end centuries of religious intolerance. So what else does he need to do? We'll have that when we come back.


BROWN: Pope Benedict has just wrapped up a busy day here in New York City at the United Nations. He urged delegates to defend human rights, even to the point of intervening in countries that can't protect their own people. This afternoon he stopped at a Jewish synagogue to literally say shalom. Benedict is the first pope to visit an American synagogue, and this is a truly remarkable sight. The German-born Pope who was forced to join the Hitler youth standing next to the senior rabbi who is a Holocaust survivor.

Just a short time ago, the Pope wrapped up an interfaith service with 250 other Christian leaders. And Benedict has made reaching out to other faiths a big priority. His meeting with leaders of other faiths in Washington late yesterday didn't get a lot of attention, but it included Muslims and was very cordial in and of it itself. But despite his efforts, he has had a tough time winning over some religious leaders.

And for tonight's "Insider's Guide," let's go to CNN senior Vatican analyst John Allen. He's with me now. And John, the fact is the Pope has had very strange relations, particularly with the Muslim world. Yesterday's meeting, did it do much to sort of open up a new dialogue at least?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SR. VATICAN ANALYST: Well, it was a very cordial encounter and I think those were some moments were always good, but it remains to be seen how it's going to be cashed out in terms of where the conversation goes. I mean, I think it's important to say, Benedict, as you said about properly, has repeatedly said he wants good relations. However, there obviously has been some turbulence.

BROWN: And there were protests surrounding that meeting yesterday, right?

ALLEN: Oh, sure. I mean, a lot of people in the so-called Muslim street remember Benedict. The only thing they know about him is that in 2006 he was the Pope who quoted a Byzantine emperor to the effect that Muhammad had brought things only evil and inhuman such as his command has spread by the sword, the faith he preached, that set up a firestorm of protest in the Muslim world that is still very much alive.

BROWN: How much of a priority is it really to try to build interfaith relations for this Pope?

ALLEN: I think it's a towering priority for two reasons. One, I think he believes the Pope ought to be a force for good in the world, which includes peace among the religious, but more sort of centrally for him. You know, job number one for this Pope is resisting what he's called the dictatorship of relativism. Things like secularism and a lack of confidence and truth. He thinks religions ought to be natural allies in doing that.

BROWN: Why is there suspension, I guess, of him by some of the other faiths? And not just in the Muslim faith, but the Jewish faith as well? Sort of his motives maybe compared to the previous Pope.

ALLEN: Controversy makes news, Campbell. So when the Pope does something that sort of sets off protests, I think that registers on people's radar screens in a way that some of his gestures of goodwill and harmony don't. In a way, part of the purpose of orchestrating some of these moments on this trip, that is the interfaith meeting in Washington to visit with the synagogue today...

BROWN: Right.

ALLEN: ... was to try to sort of put on the public consciousness this Pope's desire to get beyond the turbulence of the past into a new future in which the religions can stand shoulder to shoulder defending the idea of God and truth in a culture in which those two ideas can sometimes be a tough sell.

BROWN: All right. John Allen, stay with us. You're not going anywhere. It's going to be a very busy weekend for the Pope, and we want to ask you about that. Coming up next.


BROWN: CNN will follow the Pope's historic visit throughout the weekend. And this Sunday, Soledad O'Brien along with John Allen host live coverage of the papal mass at Yankee Stadium. That is Sunday afternoon at 2:00 Eastern time.

And John Allen, back with me now. And tell me what you expect to happen.

ALLEN: Well, tomorrow is another big day for the Pope. He is going to be kicking things off with a mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral for priest and the religious. And among other things, I would expect him to once again bring up the sex abuse crisis...

BROWN: Right.

ALLEN: ... particularly trying to give a shot in the arm to priests, a few of whom have done unimaginably horrific things, most of whom are decent guys doing decent things. And then, of course, we'll finish with the historic visit to Ground Zero and the big ticket mass in Yankee Stadium on Sunday, his swan song in America.

BROWN: All right. John Allen, we'll be there with you on Sunday. Thanks very much for all your coverage this week. We appreciate it.

That's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.