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Glenn Beck

What Will Happen in Pennsylvania Primary?; Author Investigates bin Laden`s Family; Sheriff Under Fire from Phoenix Mayor; Pennsylvanian Contenders for V.P.?; Filmmaker Looks for bin Laden; Candidates Woo Catholics

Aired April 18, 2008 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a preview for next week`s Pennsylvania primary. Will a win for either Clinton or Obama finally seal the deal for the nomination?

Plus, everyone`s talking about the presidential campaign, but who will get tapped for the VP slot? We`ll talk to two of the leading candidates: former governor Tom Ridge and Ed Rendell, the current governor, both of Pennsylvania.

And where in the world is Osama bin Laden? We`ll ask Morgan Spurlock, who has a new documentary of the same name.

All this and more, tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SMERCONISH: Hello, America. I`m Michael Smerconish from Pennsylvania in for the vacationing Glenn Beck. You`ll be thrilled to know he`ll be back on Monday.

Next Tuesday, April 22, the voters in my home state are going to go to the voting booths with a real stake in determining the Democratic nominee for president. It`s been a long time since we had a primary election, and the two Democratic candidates have spent the last six weeks rolling across my home state, a state that hasn`t gone Republican in a presidential contest since 1988.

Joining me to gaze into the crystal ball ahead of next Tuesday`s Pennsylvania primary, John Ridley, a political commentator with NPR and also a contributor to "Esquire" magazine. And Jonathan Allen from "Congressional Quarterly."

Gentlemen, welcome.

I want to think big picture. The most recent poll from Franklin and Marshall in the "Philadelphia Daily News," says it`s a six-point race. We`ll put it up on the screen so everybody can see. Can you each define for me what would a victory mean for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama?

In other words -- John Ridley, I`ll start with you -- is winning the state enough for her or does she need to win it big?

JOHN RIDLEY, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, NPR: I think she needs to win it big, Michael. And I don`t know that she can do that anymore. I mean, she used to be up by double digits. Now it`s down to single digits. And this is after Jeremiah Wright. This is after the "bitter" remarks towards small-town Americans. So for her to just eke out a victory here, that`s really not much of a victory.

SMERCONISH: Define victory for Hillary Clinton, is Hillary Clinton, victory defined as winning the state by five or more, for example?

JONATHAN ALLEN, "CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY": I`m not sure exactly where that -- where that mark is, but it`s certainly -- isn`t winning it by one, winning it by two right now. If you look at polls and what most experts think. It`s probably -- she`s probably looking at a single digit victory in Pennsylvania. And so then it becomes a real question of whether it`s four points or eight points or nine points. If she gets into double digits that`s definitely a victory for her.

And of course, the argument she`s making to super delegates right now, and they`re very important in this, is that Senator Obama is less electable in the general election. So we`re not going to see the results of the bitter comments in a primary, because the people who are most likely to shift sides from Democrat to Republican on something like that are the people who are voting for Hillary Clinton now anyway.

It`s not like they`re Obama voters who are suddenly going, "Wow, I don`t like those bitter comments. I`m going to move into the Republican camp today."

SMERCONISH: Hey, John Ridley, how likely that something should transpire tomorrow, meaning Saturday or Sunday, I mean, in the final 48, 72 hours, whatever it may be for this election? Or do you think that at this point we can run it? We can open the polls in Pennsylvania Saturday morning, not even wait till Tuesday, and get the same result?

RIDLEY: I think you can probably open the polls. I think you`ll probably get the same result. I mean, look, you have undecided voters. About 8 percent or so. That could make a difference.

But I don`t know that anything else is going to come up between today and Tuesday that`s going to make a huge difference to voters who obviously are already decided. But even to the undecided voters at this point.

SMERCONISH: Jonathan Allen, relative to how we define victory, one thing I think we can all agree on, the three of us, is if she doesn`t win Pennsylvania, meaning with 50 plus percent of the vote, she`s done, she`s out of this thing? Right?

ALLEN: I think she`ll probably suspend campaign activities, but I don`t think you`ll see her do anything really strange like say she would never be president or anything like that. I mean, she`s going to wait until the convention and see if anything happens to Barack Obama politically. But at that point, there`s no reason it would seem to continue to campaign.

SMERCONISH: Jonathan Allen, let me stick with you for a moment. John McCain in his Barcalounger Tuesday night. You with me?

ALLEN: Uh-huh.

SMERCONISH: Does he want this race to end or to continue? Because you know, the conventional wisdom says, "Oh, it`s great for the Republicans. L et them duke it out for a while." I don`t buy into that. I think McCain is out of sight, out of mind. And the best thing for McCain is that they wrap it up and people then start to focus on whoever wins and John McCain. What do you say?

ALLEN: I think right now the Democrats are doing some damage to each other, but it`s the kind of damage that John McCain would be doing to the Democratic nominee anyway right now. And perhaps they`re doing lighter damage now than John McCain would be doing to the Democratic nominee right now.

So look, I think Senator McCain will be happy to run against the Democratic nominee, whoever it is and whenever it is. I think this is giving him a little bit of an opportunity to appeal to the right, to talk to conservatives, particularly behind closed doors. Try to firm up some support that he didn`t have before.

And so to that extent it`s good. And to the extent that the Democrats expose each other`s wounds, it`s good. But it sounds to me like he`s about ready to run a general election campaign. And we`ve seen from his comments on various issues that he`s ready to run against either one.

SMERCONISH: John Ridley, Barcalounger question relative to McCain. What does he really want? What`s in his best interests?

RIDLEY: I -- honestly, I used to think his best interest was for this to continue and have these two go at each other.

SMERCONISH: But now you`re on my side, right? Now you say, hey, he needs them to end it already?

RIDLEY: I think he needs to end it. But not only that. Assuming that Barack Obama ends up being the nominee, I mean, this guy is learning on the job here in terms of campaigning. He`s getting hit with some pretty heavy stuff.

And I think by the time that November rolls around, two things: a lot of people are going to be tired of it. If you saw the debate the other day, you could see that the audience was getting tired of these questions. But he`s also learning how to deal with these things, how to fight back as well as...

SMERCONISH: Yes. And now you`re making my point, which is don`t let him -- if you`re John McCain, you don`t want Barack Obama, assuming he`s going to be the guy -- and I happen to think he`s going to be the guy -- you don`t want him making all these rookie mistakes on Hillary`s watch. You want him to have a couple of those rookie mistakes tucked in his belt for the general election.

You want William Ayers to come out in the fall, not to come out now. Because by the fall everybody is going to say, "We`ve already heard this one."

RIDLEY: Yes, I mean, he`s learning how to pitch in the farm leagues now. And he`s going to the big leagues. And again, he`s going to be a little bit more tested than he ever was, running in Illinois and running as a junior senator.

So again, I`ve switched positions. I used to think this was a really bad thing for the Democrats. I think it`s turning into a pretty good thing for the Democrats.

SMERCONISH: Jonathan Allen, in the end, Pennsylvania voters in my home state, are they pulling that lever based on things like the bitter remark or on Reverend Wright or on the association with William Ayers or, you know, the substantive issues: gas prices, the budget deficit, the war in Iraq? In the end, what calls the shot?

ALLEN: I will stay away from what the politicians do, which is to stereotype whole groups of people and say how this type of people are going to vote and that type of people are going to vote. Everybody makes their decision on their own set of issues and their own set of priorities.

And some of them will make it based on the issues. Some of them will make it based on who made the latest gaffe. Some of them are going to make it based on who they think is the best general election candidate for their party. And some people are going to make it based on who is the best person to be president, whether or not they`re the best general election candidate.

SMERCONISH: You`re not playing along with me.

ALLEN: I`m sorry.

SMERCONISH: How about John Ridley? Will you come out and play, John? Come on, man. In the end, what calls the shot?

RIDLEY: You know, I honestly have to agree with Jonathan. I mean, look, you can find some people that will vote on this, that, on race, gender, on the gaffes.

But you look at the majority of people, they seem to be voting -- at least now in this primary here for the Democrats, they seem to be voting on the issues. You haven`t seen a big change over the last few weeks based on Jeremiah Wright or the bitter remarks or even the Bosnia remarks. I mean, the polls have been pretty consistent, trending downward but consistently.

ALLEN: Let me -- can I jump in here?

SMERCONISH: Yes, quickly.

ALLEN: I really thing that we`re not going to see a change in the polls on the Democratic primary side on those issues, because the Democratic primary voters are already very polarized on them.

The concern for the Democrats is that those issues are going to rear their head in the general election. And what you`re going to see is Hillary Clinton voters from the Democratic primary moving into the Republican column because of Jeremiah Wright, because of -- because of and the Weathermen issue, because of the "bitterness" remarks in Pennsylvania and other things like that.

And so that`s the concern for the Democrats right now. And that`s why you`re not seeing it show up in polls, because those voters are already not in the Obama camp.

SMERCONISH: In other words, to the extent that those are issues that will move voters, they`re not moving them from Obama to Clinton, Clinton to Obama. They could move from either into the McCain camp, come the fall?

ALLEN: That`s the danger for the Democrats.

SMERCONISH: Unless everybody`s tired of hearing about it by -- you know, by October. Because after all, we`ve heard it all before.

ALLEN: You may be right about that. But what we haven`t seen is the exploitation to the level that you might see in a general election. We haven`t seen 527 groups in there really, really ginning this up. We haven`t seen pictures of this -- the Weathermen. We haven`t seen the continuous loop of Jeremiah Wright with words underneath it, trying to push it more directly.

SMERCONISH: You know, Jon, I agree with you. Look, I`ve been consistent. Maybe wrong, but consistent in saying I think this has been a muzzled, one of my favorite words, a muzzled campaign. In other words, I think both candidates have been scared to death that, if they play some rough politics here, they get branded a racist or a sexist.

You can`t control the 527s. You know, if someone undertakes a swift- boating-like effort come the fall, John McCain will get blamed for it, even though he`s got nothing to do with it. I think the fall is going to be a whole new set of rules.

RIDLEY: I would agree. If I can just jump in. I mean, look, one thing, you`ve seen that people are really tired of this negatives.

I think two things. The Democrats have learned from the swift-boats and from the Willie Hortons and from things like that, they`ve got to step up. But you`ve seen Barack Obama be able to weather these kinds of things.

You talk about things sounding racist or whatever. What`s good for the goose is good for the gander. The Republicans could come off sounding the same exact way.

And the Clinton supporters. She has got to go out there and maintain the supporters. If she doesn`t get the nomination, she`s going to be running for Senate again. She`s going to need Barack Obama to help her get back in New York.

SMERCONISH: And let me just piggyback on that, if I may. One thing we`ve learned about Senator Obama, I think, in this primary season: the man can counterpunch. When he has come under attack, it`s been within 24 hours he`s had something to say.

You know, John Kerry made -- made, I thought, a terrible mistake in allowing himself to be the subject of all that took place in the swift-boat controversy without responding. It`s not going to happen to Obama.

ALLEN: What Senator Obama does so well is to react to these things with a smile, a laugh and a cutting comment. A good example of that was calling Senator Clinton "Annie Oakley" the other day after -- after some of the discussions.

SMERCONISH: I agree with you. Jonathan, I agree. Good stuff.

ALLEN: Bill Clinton did that, too.

SMERCONISH: Appreciate you both being here. It`s -- it`s all good stuff. Tuesday we`ll find out. Have a good weekend.

ALLEN: Thank you. Thank you.

SMERCONISH: Coming up in just a bit, a fascinating new book details the rise of the bin Laden family, from poverty to power, and the attacks of 9/11. You don`t want to miss this.

Also, things heating up in Phoenix. Sheriff Joe Arpaio, he`s back, a key figure in the battle to keep our border safe. He`s under attack from that city`s mayor. The sheriff will join us momentarily.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMERCONISH: Osama bin Laden`s image as a simple cave-dwelling terror mastermind just got a little more complex. A new book profiling the bin Laden family is an extraordinarily detailed account of Osama bin Laden`s life and the family pressures that may have shaped him.

From his 53 siblings to his father`s close ties with the Saudi royal family, this fascinating book exposes never-before-known facts about the man who orchestrated the most deadly terror attack ever on American soil.

Steve Coll is a Pulitzer-Prize-winning journalist and author of the new book "The bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century."

Hey, Steve, your book is extraordinarily detailed with revelations that I`ve never known about Osama bin Laden. Why do you think it`s important to humanize him?

STEVE COLL, AUTHOR, "THE BIN LADENS": Well, I think, just to try to deepen our understanding of him, to figure out what to do about him and the people who follow him.

And for example, as a tactician, as a terrorist tactician, he was a great innovator in his use of technology: satellite phones and airplanes. And in order to understand how he operates and why he`s effective, I think it`s important to understand where he came from and why he uses the particular tactics that he uses.

SMERCONISH: And how about his motivation? You know, Michael Scheuer is a fellow with whom I`m well-acquainted, ran the ALEC (ph) station at the CIA which was set up to track bin Laden and al Qaeda.

He has impressed upon me this notion that it`s not our Starbucks and Gap and porno fascination, but rather, it`s our American foreign policy that motivates bin Laden. In your book, "The Bin Ladens," what light do you shed on what motivates the terror mastermind?

COLL: Well, I think he`s just -- he`s complicated. And I agree with Michael about the importance of politics and Osama`s motivation. He also has a deeply-held religious view about fighting a war ordained by God that will carry on until the end of time. And he sees himself as the vanguard in that revolution.

And at the same time, you know, he sometimes -- he sometimes sounds like a commentator on a talk show on al Jazeera talking about the here and now. So he sort of shifts back and forth in the language that he uses, but that`s part of his success, is that he`s an intuitive media man who has, from the very beginning, used satellite television and the Internet to make himself heard by the audiences that he`s trying to reach.

SMERCONISH: His relationship with his own father, a complicated one and one that you deal with. As a matter of fact, you deal with his relationship with a number of father figures. Speak to that, if you would.

COLL: Well, his father was a great man, a great businessman who established a great fortune, and he died when Osama was about 10 or 11 years old. In the years that followed, Osama fell under the mentorship of a number of father-like figures who indoctrinated him into Islam.

But I think his father remained an important inspiration in his leadership style. In particular, his father managed, first, to modernize the family, even though he was himself illiterate.

And secondly, he was able to lead a very diverse group of followers. This is another thing that makes Osama quite distinctive among terrorist leaders, is that he`s been able to build a big-tent coalition. I think when you examine his leadership style quickly, you see a lot of his father in it.

SMERCONISH: Does he become a bad seed on his own? Or is he mentored by someone who has an evil outlook?

COLL: Well, it`s an evolutionary story. You know, when he first goes to the Afghan war, he`s operating as an entirely authorized representative of his own family and of the Saudi government. Of course, the United States was on the same side of that war at the time.

Gradually, on the war front, he developed more and more radical views. And when he came home, he finally turned against the Saudi government first, and by doing that, he put himself against the interests of his own family. And during the 1990s they finally broke with him.

SMERCONISH: And I was going to say. The relationship with his own family is a complicated one. But the relationship -- and your book is very much about the Saudi royal family as much as it is about the bin Laden family. Speak to the evolution of bin Laden`s relations with that Saudi royal family over time.

COLL: Well, the family fortune was built entirely at the sort of whim, as it were, of the Saudi royal family from the Second World War forward. They became the key defense builders and intelligence builders on sensitive foreign policy projects for the Saudi government.

The bin Ladens were the people who were trusted to get the job done and who could be relied upon to keep it discreet.

They were also the only authorized builders in the two holy cities of Mecca and Medina, a status that conferred great prestige upon them. So the bin Ladens were part of the establishment in a very important way. At the same way they were outsiders, because they were immigrants, they were never going to be fully accepted by the Saudi royal family.

SMERCONISH: Hey, Steve Coll, we have just a minute remaining. Urban legend or fact that in the aftermath of September 11, the bin Laden family was given a clear passage to exit the United States?

COLL: They were interviewed by the FBI. They were put on a special charter flight. But after air space was open, not before.

And the scene aboard that flight is fascinating. Some of the bin Ladens who were the most enthusiastic about America found themselves in tears, flying over the Atlantic, chain-smoking and dealing with circumstances that they -- they had never imagined possible.

SMERCONISH: The book is called "The bin Ladens." Steve Coll, thanks for being here. We really appreciate it.

COLL: Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate it.

SMERCONISH: We`re going to be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMERCONISH: The border crisis is heating up in Phoenix and in ways that you might find surprising.

On April 4, Phoenix mayor Phil Gordon wrote a letter to the U.S. attorney general and asked him and the FBI to investigate the actions of Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. The letter cites the sheriff department`s recent patrols and sweeps through predominantly Hispanic neighborhoods, which have led to 73 arrests of illegal immigrants.

That may sound like it`s working, but Mayor Gordon calls Sheriff Arpaio`s actions "a pattern and practice of conduct that includes discriminatory harassment, improper stops, searches and arrests."

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio joins me now.

Hey, Sheriff, are you profiling?

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY: No, we`re not profiling. We`ve been trained, 160 of my officers, by ICE. By the way, that April 4, that`s when ICE was here with their top officials. And they saw our operation. They liked it at the same time.

SMERCONISH: You mean the feds, right?

ARPAIO: Yes. And the minute it hit the headlines supporting me, he writes a letter, which is garbage. I was a high federal law enforcement official in the Justice Department. I never seen a letter of this type where all his complaints were from the media. He didn`t have the facts.

So he just wants to camouflage his pro-immigration philosophy by trying to get to people to go after me, like I`m under federal investigation.

SMERCONISH: Hey, Sheriff, one part of the letter, and you`re right, sir, insofar as it relies on the media. "The Arizona Republic" in particular says, quote, "By my math, that means Latinos represented 100 percent of his stops." Do Latinos account for 100 percent of the stops that you`re making, automobile stops?

ARPAIO: Well, if we -- of course not. We have all ethnic backgrounds when we arrest.

SMERCONISH: So where`s he getting that?

ARPAIO: I don`t know. He gets it from the sky. He has -- all that is all garbage, when you`re reading that report that you sent to Washington. It`s all garbage, including I don`t go after 70,000 warrants. They`re his warrants. Not mine. I can go on and on.

So you know what? I`m going to keep doing my job. I will be back in Phoenix. I will enforce the illegal immigration laws. We`re the only ones doing it. We`re the only ones doing the state law, which is the human smuggling. And we locked up 900 already. I`m going to continue to fight this battle.

SMERCONISH: If two cars are going down the road and each has a burned-out tail light, one driven by a Hispanic and you know that, and one driven by a white guy, what I`m getting from you is you`re pulling them both over?

ARPAIO: Of course. We lock -- I`m an equal opportunity guy. We lock everybody up. And that racial profiling is garbage. He knows it. He doesn`t want me to enforce the illegal immigration laws. No one else is doing it. His police department can`t do it. They can`t ask. They can`t do nothing. So all the businessmen have come to me, and legislators, and said, "Please, Sheriff, come on into Phoenix and enforce the law." And that`s what I`m doing.

SMERCONISH: What do you think the feds are going to do in response to the letter from the mayor?

ARPAIO: Well, I`m not worried about it. That`s for sure. When you read that letter, it doesn`t even make sense. You think he`d get some facts. But I`m not concerned about it.

SMERCONISH: The part I don`t understand, Sheriff -- I only have a minute left -- is why, if Washington can`t figure out what to do with the 10 to 12 million who are here illegally, why don`t they at least seal the board and then sort it out?

ARPAIO: That`s another issue. But right now, I`m concerned about enforcing the laws in Maricopa County. That`s what I took an oath of office for. That`s what I`m doing. I`m not going to wait for the feds. I`m enforcing the illegal immigration laws and the crime laws right here in Maricopa County.

SMERCONISH: All right. Sheriff Arpaio, we thank you.

ARPAIO: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: Appreciate your being here tonight, sir.

Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMERCONISH: Next Tuesday Democrats in Pennsylvania will have a major say in the presidential primary process, for the first time since the `70s. In addition to our primary, the Keystone State also has two prominent individuals in the running for vice president.

For the Democrats, there`s Ed Rendell. He`s now in his second term as governor. He`s currently supporting Hillary Clinton, but here`s why he`d make a good pick for either Democratic candidate. He was a terrific mayor. And he continues to get good marks during his tenure as governor.

Downside, tends to be a little unmuzzled. Not a bad thing in my book. He`s the one who was caught recently as saying that perhaps Pennsylvanians are not ready to vote for an African-American. That cost him some points.

As for the GOP, Tom Ridge, right out of central casting, I like to say. Handsome guy, an amazing story. Grew up in public housing. Educated at Harvard. Fought for his country in Vietnam. A congressman from Erie, Pennsylvania. Then a two-term governor of our state. The first secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. Some think that a downside is his pro choice record. I happen to disagree.

I think to be successful in November, the Republicans need to grow their tent and not limit their appeal.

I`m joined now by former governor, Tom Ridge, CEO of the consulting firm Ridge Global.

Hey, Governor, good to see you.

TOM RIDGE, CEO, RIDGE GLOBAL: Mike, nice to join you today.

SMERCONISH: I`m in a quandary here. Help me out. If I don`t -- if I don`t ask you about the VP speculation, then I`m derelict in my duty. But if I do ask you, you`re not giving me anything. Give me something. Let`s make a headline.

RIDGE: You got it right. I mean, you got it absolutely right. Look, No. 1, it`s flattering to be included in what I think is John`s very, very deep bench. He`s got a lot of people from whom he can choose. I`m grateful that you brought it up. And why don`t you and I just wait till John makes up his mind, and then we`ll both talk about it?

SMERCONISH: Can we at least agree on this, Governor, that there ought not be a litmus test relative to the choice issue? I mean, look, Pennsylvania, you know the politics in this state. You`re a two-term governor. You got to win Pennsylvania, I think, to capture the White House.

And I`m not so sure that a pro-choice, pro-life, I mean, somebody defined solely on that issue, is the way to win our state.

RIDGE: Well, I think again there will be a lot of people giving my friend, John McCain, a lot of advice one way or the other. I know him very, very well. He will take that advice and then make the decision and choose a running mate with whom he is most comfortable, with whom he thinks he can lead America.

And so whether it`s a litmus test or not, we`ll see. But you and I can talk about it once he makes that choice.

SMERCONISH: There`s not a headline in there so far.

RIDGE: You`re right. I worked very hard not to give you one.

SMERCONISH: You really hung with him through thick and thin. I mean, last summer, man, politically speaking, folks had left him for dead. What accounts for his resurgence?

RIDGE: Will, character, judgment. You know, I think people take a look at the complexities (ph) associated with America, not only fighting global terrorism but the emergence of China and some problems down the road potentially with Russia. The continuing turbulence in the Middle East.

The first thing they think of is a commander in chief is experienced, that`s demonstrated time and time again good judgment and really strong relationships overseas.

But I think character helped him a great deal. And I think it was also a matter of will. I remember seeing him in July of last year. We talked a little bit about the demise of the campaign. Quickly, this is not a man who dwells a lot on the past, obviously. He took -- personally, he took some responsibility for it. He said I guess we should have paid more attention at the top of the flow chart.

He looked me right in the eye and he said, "You know, Tom, I have been through worse than this. Sit down and let me show you how I think we can still win this thing.

So when the story is written about his comeback, and there`s an election in November, there`s -- you find out there`s a period of four or five months he`s operating out of a shoebox with a couple loyal friends. And at the end of the day, his leadership, his character just propelled himself into the victory in New Hampshire and away we went.

SMERCONISH: I want to ask Governor Ridge the Barcalounger question. OK? Tuesday night you`re in yours, and you`re watching the results come in on the other side of the aisle. Do you want that race to be over, so that it`s finally candidate "A" versus John McCain? Or do you want it to go on for a while?

I know the conventional wisdom, sir, is that the "D`s" are doing great harm to one another. I don`t see it that way. I think out of sight, out of mind, and the sooner we get to the general election, the better you are. Meaning, you, John McCain.

RIDGE: Well, I don`t know. I guess I probably disagree a little bit on that. While they continue their brass knuckle fight and the debate in Philadelphia was kind of interesting. They spent more time at each other than they did talking about the direction of the country if they were president. They looked like candidates trying to grab the brass ring, and John is out there looking like a president.

So you can argue both ways. But in any event, my suspicion is that it probably goes close to the convention. Either way. I mean, we`ve got a campaign to run. And we`re going to run it and let the Democrats do their thing. We will engage either one of them -- is going to be very, very formidable from Labor Day on. We know that for a fact. We`ll be ready.

SMERCONISH: We only have a couple of seconds left. I want to -- I want to let the secret out of the bag as to how you got elected. Because you and I both know it was that commercial where you`re in front of the house where you grew up. It`s a cold day. Go ahead. The screen door opens, and what happens?

RIDGE: My mother looks out the door. I`m wearing a bomber jacket without a hat. A winter day. And she said, "Hey, Tom, put your hat on."

SMERCONISH: Tom, you forgot your hat! Everybody loved it. We elected you governor, and the rest is history. Good to see you again.

RIDGE: Thank you, Michael. Good talking with you.

SMERCONISH: All right. Governor Tom Ridge.

RIDGE: You bet.

SMERCONISH: There you go. Turning now to the Democratic side of the aisle in talking Pennsylvania politics, Governor Ed Rendell, a huge Hillary Clinton supporter.

Hey, Governor, welcome.

GOV. ED RENDELL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Michael, how are you?

SMERCONISH: You know, what I remember is the day that she came to town for a city hall ceremony, you and Mayor Nutter both there. It was carried live on KYW, which as you know, Governor, is our news radio station in Philadelphia.

And I was driving in my car listening. And as I listened to your words, I said this is not the typical political endorsement. You know, this guy really means it and is passionate about it. And you went on for a long time, extemporaneous. Tell me what drives your being so supportive of Hillary Clinton.

RENDELL: Well, I`ve known Hillary for 15 years, and I`ve admired her ability to fight for the things she believes in. And really her unwillingness to quit.

Because one of the things I`ve found in Harrisburg, if you were to ask me why we`ve had some level of legislative success, it`s because I just don`t take no for an answer. If they turn me down in year one, we go back in year two with the same thing. And we push and we push until we work out some form of compromise that gets the job done.

And Hillary has that same type of energy and refusal to quit on things that she believes in.

Secondly, I looked at the Web sites. I looked at John Edwards` Web site, Hillary`s and Barack Obama`s before I endorsed. They were down to three candidates. And her Web site has terrific solutions for the problems that face America and, unlike most candidates, she spells out a the section of her Web site, how she`s going to pay for each -- each time she`s spending money. Like for the renewable energy fund. She spells out how she`s going to pay for it, where that money is going to come from.

So I think she has the best solutions to our problems. She`s the fighter we need. No offense to Senator Obama, who I think is a good guy and would make a good president, but you`re not going to get the drug companies to agree to sell drugs to the United States government at a huge wholesale price by singing "Kumbaya." You`re just not.

SMERCONISH: Is he getting a free ride? Are you upset with the media not putting more scrutiny on him the way they have on her?

RENDELL: I think for the bulk of the campaign that`s been the case. I think a lot of things that he has done, had she done them, would have been subject to screaming headlines and three-week stories.

I think last night the attention of the debate was turned on him, and I don`t think he responded -- look, some of it was silly. I don`t care if someone wears a flag lapel pin. I care about whether they believe in this country and are willing to fight for this country. Some of it was silly. But some of it was important.

And then when we got into the substantive debate, I thought she scored a decisive victory. She had the facts under command. She had solutions, boom, boom, boom. He struggled with the payroll tax. He struggled with Social Security. He struggled with guns. She was much sharper, much crisper and much more in command.

SMERCONISH: Who`s got the momentum, Gov? I mean, you`ve been around the track, and the margin they say is at about six, if you believe Terry Madonna and the folks at F&M. What do you say?

RENDELL: Well, I think she captured the momentum last night. I think he had momentum because of outspending us on TV 4-1, that momentum had pretty much stopped even before his comments on "bitter" Pennsylvanians. The "bitter" Pennsylvanians stopped whatever momentum he had and caused them to backtrack a little bit.

I think the real margin is somewhere between six and eight or six and nine. I think her debate performance last night, she should pick up a point or two among the undecideds.

So I think it`s going to be very close to the eight, 11 or eight to 12 or 7 to 10-point margin. That spread. And I think the momentum now is hers again.

SMERCONISH: Governor, what -- in your capacity as a former head of the DNC, paint for me the picture of a happy ending, no pun intended. But how do the "D`s" emerge from this with everybody under the same tent, the minority community not feeling disenfranchised if in fact, it`s your candidate.

RENDELL: Right.

SMERCONISH: How do you all get on the same page?

RENDELL: Well, first of all, let me say, I heard you a couple of days ago, I think the first day you were on, and there is terrible hand-wringing here about how this has weakened the party and weakened the candidates. I don`t buy it. I think our candidates are stronger and better.

Hey, if Barack Obama is worried about the "bitterness" commercial that Hillary Clinton`s running, wail till he sees that he`s the nominee and the 527s on the Republican side. They`re going to make what Hillary is saying seem mild in comparison.

And it`s a good exercise. It strengthens both of our candidates for a fall run.

Now, if Hillary Clinton does emerge as the nominee, I think it`s incumbent upon her -- and I am not a Clinton insider and I don`t claim to be -- but I think it`s incumbent upon her to try to persuade Barack Obama to go on the ticket. I think it will be hard, because he`ll be disappointed.

SMERCONISH: I thought that was your slot.

RENDELL: No, no, I want to stay here, Michael.

SMERCONISH: She`s got, you know, three or so days where she taps you for the VP, and then she wins Pennsylvania handily.

RENDELL: No, no. She can win Pennsylvania without me. And I do want to stay here. There`s a lot that I want to finish.

But I think, if it`s a Clinton/Obama ticket, that absolutely washes away any of the problems with the Obama voters. That`s the best avenue for her.

For him, I would offer -- if I was Barack Obama and I won the nomination, I would offer the vice presidency to her. And I know her first instinct would be not to take it, but I would argue, if I had a chance, to her, look, it`s not so bad being the first woman vice president in the United States history, too.

And Senator Obama could give Senator Clinton health care as her portfolio to work on in the new administration, if they`re successful. I think they`d be a great team together.

SMERCONISH: Governor Rendell, many, many thanks. We really appreciate you being here.

RENDELL: Thanks, Michael. Stay tuned, right?

SMERCONISH: Indeed.

Coming up Morgan Spurlock joins me right here on set to discuss his latest film "Where in the World is Osama bin Laden?" Don`t miss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMERCONISH: In 2004 filmmaker Morgan Spurlock spent 30 days eating nothing but McDonald`s to see what it would do to his health. He documented that in his hit movie "Supersize Me," which earned him an Oscar nomination.

Now he`s exploring an entirely different world and is in pursuit of the world`s most elusive terrorist, Osama bin Laden. In his new documentary, "Where in the World is Osama bin Laden?", Spurlock spent five months traveling to 15 different countries to make the film.

So, after looking in places such as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Egypt, did he get any closer to finding bin Laden than the U.S. government?

Here with us now, writer/producer/director Morgan Spurlock to talk about his new documentary.

You are a funny guy. I loved "Supersize Me." I`m looking forward to seeing this and reading the book, as well.

MORGAN SPURLOCK, FILMMAKER: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: But the most serious of subjects. It really angers me. And I made an endorsement in the "Philadelphia Daily News" yesterday in the presidential race, based solely on who I thought would really go get bin Laden.

SPURLOCK: Right.

SMERCONISH: Why aren`t we getting this guy? What did you learn?

SPURLOCK: You know, I mean, I think the thing is he -- we look at him as being so marginalized in this -- in kind of the war on terror, that he`s in a place where nobody really cares, you know. He`s kind of contained there.

But what you see over the course of the movie, which I think is really interesting, is that we`re traveling to Egypt, Morocco, you know, Israel, the Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan. His influence is everywhere. You see him and his ideology. It really has, you know, gone out, you know, across the globe.

And it`s -- and so for me, that`s one of the biggest things we have to combat now. It`s not so much him, it`s the thinking.

SMERCONISH: One of the things that I read in a review of the movie, because I`ve not yet had the privilege of seeing it, is that you learned we`re not as loathed in those parts of the world as we might assume we are.

SPURLOCK: Absolutely not. I mean, I think that we get, really, one version of what Islam is and what Muslims think of America, you know, in that part of the world. And it is this, you know, if it bleeds, it leads. That really is a very big news mantra that continues to reign the day.

And what you see is people who "I hate America" and "death to all of you." But you don`t see the other side of this, which I believe is the real silent majority of people who don`t hate America. They really -- they admire what America is and what America stands for. And they like American people. They don`t like the foreign policy or the government, but they can -- they can separate the two. And I think that`s great to hear, because we don`t hear that very often.

SMERCONISH: So there are some vignettes in the movie where folks want Morgan Spurlock to know, "Hey, man, those radical Islamists, they don`t speak for me."

SPURLOCK: "That`s not me," you know? And it`s great to hear that. You know, and it`s great to also see a tremendous amount of commonality. You know, when you sit down with someone who, they want their kids to get education, have health care. They want to be able to have a job and put a roof over their head and put food on the table.

It`s like I could be having that conversation with my neighbor in Brooklyn. You know? That`s something we don`t hear either.

SMERCONISH: My expectation, based on "Supersize Me," is that with Morgan Spurlock, I`m getting a couple of laughs along the way. And then there`s a message. I`m going to get some content. So what am I going to get on the issue of why the hell can`t we find bin Laden?

SPURLOCK: Well, I think that, you know, what you get in terms of that is just the sense that he`s become really something else. He`s become an enigma. I think when you see the film, what really comes out of that is this idea that he`s like Keyser Soze. He`s everywhere, and he`s nowhere. And he`s nobody...

SMERCONISH: Who is Keyser Soze?

SPURLOCK: Yes, that`s right.

SMERCONISH: Maybe he`s Kevin spacey. Maybe that`s it. Maybe we need to find him.

SPURLOCK: It`s not funny, though. It`s not. But if you don`t laugh, you cry. That`s the whole thing. And so for me, that`s what the whole film is about.

You know, Lily Tomlin said something years ago, which is you have to find humor in everything, because through humor you find humanity.

SMERCONISH: You started out because you wanted to know why haven`t we found him? And then your wife, Alex, becomes pregnant. And that sort of causes the project to go in a different direction.

SPURLOCK: It was a big shift for me personally. You know, it`s -- it`s one of these things that all of us can, especially as parents can relate and think about. You know, the minute I found out we were going to have a kid, it`s what kind of world am I bringing a kid into? You know, it`s not just about where is he and why haven`t we found him? You know, it`s a bigger question. And I think we can all -- we can all find a little -- a little piece of us in that question.

SMERCONISH: You want to go grab a Big Mac when this is over?

SPURLOCK: I think I`m -- I think I`m done. I`m like the kid who got locked in the closet with the cigars. You know, I`ve smoked my whole box of cigars.

SMERCONISH: No more Mickey D`s for you?

SPURLOCK: No, no more. Every once in a while, maybe a little In and Out Burger. But that`s...

SMERCONISH: Are you recognized when you go in there?

SPURLOCK: Yes. When I go in the In and Out Burger? Oh, yes, completely. They`re like, look who`s here.

SMERCONISH: I remember -- I remember from that project that one of the effects that it had on your body was relative to your manhood. And I`m sitting here and I`m thinking, well, the wife got pregnant during this project. I guess that sorted itself out.

SPURLOCK: Yes, it was all taken care of. You know? Once she flushed me out, everything went back to normal.

SMERCONISH: What`s the reaction of our government to your new movie project?

SPURLOCK: I don`t know, you know. I don`t know if they`ve seen it yet.

SMERCONISH: In the trailer you`re riding, like, in a convoy. I mean, you clearly had the support of the military. Or at least some component of it.

SPURLOCK: We got the support -- once we got there, we got the support of ISAP (ph) and NATO forces when we were in Afghanistan. We were denied an embed by the Department of State before we left. But once we got there, you know, apparently, there wasn`t a lot of communication between the two.

Because we show up, and we`re like, hey, we want to go out with the troops. And they`re like, sure, great. When do you want to go? How`s Tuesday? So the troops did a fantastic -- they did a great job of taking care of us. Those guys are heroes for what they do.

SMERCONISH: We only have a minute left. Did you come away with a better understanding of those tribal regions in northwest Pakistan where bin Laden is presumed to be hiding? You know, this no-man`s land of lawlessness?

SPURLOCK: Yes, I mean, it`s a place where, you know, that`s kind of where our journey comes to a close. You know, like we get to the border. And from what people, say within like 50 to 75 miles of where he was. Right before we got there, there was a madrassa that was blown up and about 75, 80 people got killed. So the anti-American, anti-western sentiment was really high at that point.

So we made the choice, you know, not to go in. And I decided to come home and actually be there for the birth of my son. But you know, I think that there`s a way for us to go in there. It`s just now possibly without Musharraf, there will be a way for us to do that.

SMERCONISH: Quarter Pounder with cheese?

SPURLOCK: No. No thanks.

SMERCONISH: Fries?

SPURLOCK: No, keep trying.

SMERCONISH: Morgan Spurlock, many thanks.

SPURLOCK: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: Pleasure to meet you.

We`re going to be back in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMERCONISH: It`s day two of the pope`s visit to the United States, and already his impact on millions of American Catholics is being felt. But will his visit and the issues he has already begun to raise influence their votes? And which candidate will benefit?

CNN White House correspondent Ed Henry takes a look at how the presidential contenders are wooing the Catholic vote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Catholics are critical in November. There are 70 million of them in America. And they picked the winner in eight of the last nine presidential elections.

Catholic voters up for grabs will be listening to the pope very closely for any divine guidance.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Benedict XVI is not a super delegate riding into town to deliver a key endorsement. On the other hand, I think it would also be terribly naive to think there`s no political subtext to the pope`s presence in the United States.

HENRY: The Democrats, both in favor of abortion rights, are trying to highlight other subjects where they agree with the pope.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He`s been a strong voice on behalf on what we must do to deal with poverty and deal with injustice.

HENRY: Hillary Clinton has an edge among Catholics in the primaries. But Barack Obama is trying to shake that up in heavily Catholic Pennsylvania with the endorsement of antiabortion Catholic Democrat Bob Casey Jr.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ironically, the first school I went to in Indonesia was a Catholic school.

HENRY: Republican John McCain could run into trouble over the Vatican`s opposition to the Iraq war. But the pope has recently expressed concern that a quick U.S. pullout from Iraq could cause a humanitarian crisis.

PETER WEHNER, SENIOR FELLOW, ETHICS AND PUBLIC POLICY CENTER: I think that McCain`s view of the nature and threat of Islamic terrorism is very consistent with what the pope has said.

HENRY: McCain is also in sync with the pope on abortions, but a recent Pew poll found 51 percent of American Catholics believe abortion should be legal.

So the Catholic vote is not monolithic, making it hard to decipher which way they`ll go.

LUIS LUGO, DIRECTOR, PEW FORUM ON RELIGION AND PUBLIC LIFE: The Catholic vote, as a whole, is a fascinating study because it is -- it is the quintessential swing vote in American elections.

HENRY (on camera): Strategists in both parties privately say that Catholics could swing to John McCain this time, but only if he starts stressing social issues more and begins wearing his faith on his sleeve, two things he has not been comfortable with so far.

Ed Henry, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SMERCONISH: That`s all for tonight. I`m Michael Smerconish, filling in for Glenn Beck. From New York, good night.

END