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Race for the Democratic Ticket Goes Down the Wire; Bush Administration Manipulated the Truth about the War in Iraq; Pope Benedict Left the U.S. After a Historic Six-Day Visit; Mayor Michael Nutter Supports Hillary Clinton; Senators Clinton and Obama Fighting Over Pennsylvania's Catholic Voters

Aired April 20, 2008 - 22:00   ET


RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the race for the Democratic ticket goes down to the wire and suddenly here, it's tighter than ever. We poll the polls.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm offering my experience, my strength and my readiness for whatever comes our way.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want us to change the country because we can disagree without being disagreeable. We can find common ground.


SANCHEZ: Reports the Bush administration manipulated the truth about the war in Iraq and used the people you trusted most to do it. And even some of them say they were hosed.

John McCain in a shelling match that had to be broken up by a fellow senator? Some who work with him tell "The Washington Post" his temper is an issue.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do I get angry from time to time?


SANCHEZ: The pope visits Ground Zero. No argument there. But then he steps into the immigration debate as well.


SANCHEZ: You guys don't think that Osama bin Laden is an extremist?


SANCHEZ: A terrorist.



SANCHEZ: And an S.O.B.



SANCHEZ: Muslims in Detroit, women in Scranton, Jews in Chicago. I traveled the country looking for the electorally pumped, juiced, the league of first-time voters.


OBAMA: Last night Senator Clinton and I had our 21st debate of the year and, you know, you just got to kind of let it --


SANCHEZ: That is what ABC says Obama said about their debate, but they left something out -- something very important. We won't leave it out.

So the question is here in the city of brotherly love, on Tuesday, who's going get the love? Let's talk about it.

CROWD: Hillary! Hillary! Hillary! Hillary!

SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody, I'm Rick Sanchez. You can hear the excitement expected here in Philadelphia. We welcome you to the University of Pennsylvania in the heart of Philadelphia where the contest between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton may be decided. Now think about this. They're going to start voting within 48 hours and this city, this university, this area is pumped, to say the least.

Look at these people. By the way, we did tell you there is a lot of news to get to. First, let's do this. Let's break down some of these numbers for the folks here. A CNN poll of polls now has this thing down to just a five-point margin. There it is. 48 percent for Senator Clinton. Obama with 43 percent. 9 percent unsure. That's significant.

If you go with the expectations game and what was thought to be happening in the state a couple of weeks ago. Final few hours. They've been pushing across the State of Pennsylvania. Of course, CNN's cameras have been there as you might expect. We've got a map that shows the campaign route and some of the stops today from (INAUDIBLE), Senators Clinton and Obama.

Senator Barack Obama appeared before supporters. He was in Reading, Pennsylvania. He was also in Bethlehem, and then he went to Scranton which is said to be Hillary Clinton territory, by the way.

Senator Hillary Clinton was speaking today. She was in Bethlehem. She was also in Abington, she was in Johnstown, and she was also in University Park. Is that right?


SANCHEZ: State college. Do you know, it's the problem as they have these schools all over the country with same-sounding names? Clinton hits Obama on healthcare. She says he's misrepresented her health care plan. Obama has been accusing Clinton's campaign of manufacturing fake controversies.

We've been listening to this all day long. If the rhetoric is up, sharply negative campaigning continues as we count down to the crucial Pennsylvania primary. Both sides are now launching waves of toughly worded mailers and matching attack ads, none of which have been seen in primaries prior to this one which tells you, which signals just how important the State of Pennsylvania is.

And this thing is going break for Hillary Clinton. This is where it has to happen and she has got an incredibly, ironic endorsement today from, I guess, arch enemy is probably the best way of saying this. Her arch enemy and her husband's arch enemy.

We're going to tell you who that is in just a minute. But first, let's bring in my colleague, Mary Snow, part of The Best Political Team on Television. She's joining me live now from the renowned Philadelphia Museum of Art not far from the Rocky Statue.

Explain to us why we keep hearing that Senator Clinton needs to not only win Pennsylvania, but win Pennsylvania big, Mary?

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, bottom line is she needs to win big to stay in the presidential race. And you know, we were with Senator Clinton earlier today in Bethlehem, at a rally where she told the crowd, Pennsylvania will pick the next president. Just to underscore how important the state really is.

And when you're talking about just a few weeks ago in terms of what was expected here, Senator Clinton had come under pressure to drop out of the race because Senator Obama is leading with delegates. He's had some superdelegates switching his way as he gains momentum. And she really needs to win the popular vote to show that she is the strong candidate because she is vowing to fight on and go on to Indiana and North Carolina.

So she really needs to have a good showing here to show that she can withstand this and pick up a popular vote in the general election.

SANCHEZ: Yes, look. This comes down to a numbers game, doesn't it? And we've been showing this poll of polls, but to be fair, some of this poll does not reflect what was happening after this debate and even after some of the heated exchanges involving the clinging comment by Barack Obama and the bitter comment by Barack Obama as some have referred to it.

Do you get a sense tonight, though, from talking to some of her handlers and some of the people within the campaign that they're worried that the numbers in Pennsylvania for Hillary Clinton have tightened?

SNOW: Well, you know, the campaign throughout this weekend, Rick has even kind of lowered expectations. As you mentioned, she had a double digit lead here just a few weeks ago, and the latest poll shows that she only has a five-point lead.

And throughout the weekend, you've been hearing from the Clinton campaign that they're saying Senator Obama has outspent her and they are expecting a tight race. That certainly wasn't the picture a few weeks ago, so they are kind of paving the way for this not to be a blowout. And, you know, we talked to some supporters today at that rally.

Some are a bit concerned about the tightening lead, but others point out anything can happen and she's fought in the past and has come out with surprises.

SANCHEZ: Yes. That's why it comes down to that expectation game that so many people play in politics. If you go in thinking you've got to win by this much, if you don't win by that much then your opponents is going to say well it wasn't really a win, because she didn't win the way she was suppose to win.

We're going to be getting back to that segment, but here's the bonus news item of the day. Senator Clinton has gotten the endorsement from "Pittsburgh Tribune Review." It's owned and published by billionaire conservative Richard Mellon Scaife. No one has ever been harder on the Clintons than this guy.

Let's talk about it with a guy with more than, what -- two decades of experience now? Democratic strategist Larry Ceisler is with us here -- Ceisler, I apologize. It won't be the first name around here. I tell you, these Pennsylvania names.

Renee Amore is joining us as well. The first female African- American ever to chair a Pennsylvania delegation to the Republican National Convention. And the Philadelphia Inquirer's national political columnist known around the country, Dick Polman, recognized as one of the nation's top political reporters.

Dick, if you would, start us off with Melon Scathe endorsement or at least his newspaper and the irony involved in something like that.

DICK POLMAN, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER: Well, she went in and met with him a few weeks ago.

SANCHEZ: I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall.

POLMAN: And you know -- and I thought in some ways it was kind of a smart move in a way for her, very clever in the sense that there is a certain kind of audience that that newspaper has.

There are a lot of culturally conservative Pennsylvania voters who read that newspaper, or at least will hear about the meeting with that newspaper, and then reach out -- it's the way to reach out to that audience and those kinds of voters. SANCHEZ: The people at home were watching us right now and don't know Richard Melon Scathe.

POLMAN: Oh well, that's important to fill in. And in 1909s, he bankrolled a lot of the investigations of Bill Clinton's -- how should we say this -- love life in Arkansas before he became president.

SANCHEZ: Would any of that come out had it not been to Richard Mellon Scaife?

POLMAN: I arguably not, because he was the person who put the money behind it.

SANCHEZ: Go ahead Larry.

LARRY CEISLER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, I mean -- you know, he was the godfather and the bankroller of the great conspiracy as Hillary Clinton said it. But if anybody read the "Vanity Fair" article on him, it actually talked about how he met with President Clinton and had lunch with him in New York and made a contribution --

SANCHEZ: Strange bedfellows.

CEISLER: Right. We made a contribution to the foundation, so that's one contribution that we do know of.

SANCHEZ: Is the Republican message out there probably what? The worst of all evils is going to be Hillary Clinton and not Barack Obama because he's more liberal than she is.

RENEE AMORE, PENNSYLVANIA, REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE: First of all, the Republicans are having a really good time, Rick, OK, while people are fighting in the Democratic Party.

SANCHEZ: Why do you say that?

AMORE: Because we can sit back and right now gives McCain some chance and time to really pull the party together.

SANCHEZ: But here's where I think you're wrong. I think you're wrong because every headline you look at all over the country is about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

AMORE: And that's OK right now.


AMORE: And that's OK right now, because what we're doing is getting our base together and getting our act together, getting our house in order while the Democrats are destroying their house. So I'm OK with that.

CEISLER: The problem is that Republicans are being exposed to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama on a daily basis in Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania is going to be a battleground. And you have all these Republicans who switch parties. (CROSSTALK)

AMORE: Absolutely, because it's a race and gender issue, and so -- but guess what? We'll get them back just like we do (INAUDIBLE).


CEISLER: But remember, the Pennsylvania suburbs which were all Republican up until a few weeks ago are now majority Democratic registrants, because they come over to vote in this (INAUDIBLE).

SANCHEZ: Are the polls reading this right, Dick? Are the polls reading this right? I mean, they're saying 4 or 5.

POLMAN: I think it's right. I see like kind of a modest single digit is actually greater than 5 percent, because I think that these undecideds -- 9 percent or 10 percent are undecided. If you look at the pattern in the exit polls and the other primaries, the late decideds at the very last minute, tend to break for Clinton. They've done that in almost every --

SANCHEZ: That's interesting. And now we got some people here that are going to be happy to hear that.


SANCHEZ: I'll tell you what, there's another argument for that as well and it has to do with college students who are mis/under- represented because they only have cell phones and the pollsters can't get to them. We'll have that discussion in a little bit.

An explosive report in "The New York Times" that says that the Bush administration -- the Bush administration used military analysts, the guys you see on CNN and MSNBC and Fox and CBS and other places to manipulate the facts from the war in Iraq by feeding them information unbeknownst in many cases even to the people in the news business.

Also, the mayor of Philadelphia sets me straight on why as a prominent African-American leader, he doesn't have to be for Barack Obama. We're live at the University of Pennsylvania, Ivy League, we'll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, that would bother me, absolutely. I think that's important that we get information from people who are out there telling the truth that they're not pumped information of the Pentagon.

I mean, that is the whole role of the press to me is to have independent sources telling you the story. If you're getting your news from the administration, that's dangerous stuff. That kind of harkens back to me to like Nixonian practices that becomes very dangerous. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Look at the people who have been reacting out there on the streets of Philadelphia, just like your people are reacting here. We're live. We're going Ivy League tonight. We're at the University of Pennsylvania. New York Times investigation finds that the Pentagon was feeding biased information about the war in Iraq to the media through these military analysts that people like myself have been interviewing on TV, who were supposed to be given an objective assessment to the public of what was really going on overseas.

Now, "The New York Times" says most of the TV and the radio military analysts have ties to military contractors. People who could possibly be making money on the war. Most would consider that a potential conflict of interest, maybe not even potential.

Now, those business relationships are hardly ever disclosed to the viewers or even to the media outlets themselves. Here's what "The New York Times" writes. Pay attention, this is interesting.

"Records and interviews show how the Bush administration has used its control over access and information in an effort to transform the analysts into a kind of Trojan horse. Trojan horse, like getting into your enemy's camp. An instrument intended to shape terrorism coverage from inside the major TV and radio networks.

Now, a retired Green Beret and former Fox News analyst told "The New York Times," "It was them saying we need to stick our hands up your back and move your mouth for you."

Now, Ken Allard who I worked with many times is also a military analyst. He was quoted in this article. When asked how it felt he said, "Well, we were hosed."

Well, if they were hosed because they feel now like they got bad information, how do you think the American people feel about this? To our panel?

CEISLER: Hey, hello? Does this really surprise anybody? I mean, first of all, I think people discount military analysts to begin with, because you know...

SANCHEZ: Really?

CEISLER: Oh, sure! You know, they're pro-military. You know, they're patriotic. They're not going to say bad things about the army. But, of course, you know, they work for contractors.

What was disturbing in that article and this is what you know is going to happen was the one analyst said that when he gave the Pentagon the tip-off that he was going to be a little less friendly in an interview, he had his contracts cut. So I mean, it was extortion. That's what it was. But you know what?

I don't blame the analysts. I blame the networks. They should have asked those questions when your booker called me to ask me to come on here tonight, are you for Clinton? Are you doing any work for Clinton?

SANCHEZ: It's called thoroughly vetting the people you're going to have on the air.

CEISLER: Right. Right.


AMORE: I mean, you have to answer questions. You got to do (INAUDIBLE).

SANCHEZ: There's much to be learned from this. But what he is saying about the Republican Party and the Bush administration in particular though is that they used every avenue they could to perhaps, in this case, use these guys to give out information that may not necessarily have been true, Renee.

AMORE: And the bottom line is the Bush administration has been accused of doing so many things. And what do we know is really true? Not true? Some of the analysts are saying, no, that's not true.


SANCHEZ: But as a Republican on this panel, how do you defend that?

AMORE: The bottom line is that we have to really find out what really did happen? We don't know what really happened.


POLMAN: They're on the record --


AMORE: But everybody did not agree with that. They're not all agreeing with it.

POLMAN: You know, the Bush administration has been accused of a lot of things.

AMORE: Exactly.

POLMAN: About 75 percent or 80 percent of those things have turned out to be true. I mean, there's a long record now of the manipulation of information and the run-up and prosecution and execution of this war.

So in that sense, like Larry said, there is no surprise there. I think John McCain should be asked tomorrow does he support or condemn what the Bush administration did in terms of this kind of policy? I think that would be a terrific question to ask him.


SANCHEZ: You know, because on its face you could argue there's a disinformation campaign here. Something like we've seen in the past that we've criticized in this country. Something that goes back to Edgar Hoover. Something that I've seen in communist countries like the one where I was born, where the government controls the media flow.

CEISLER: Look, they took him to Guantanamo. You know, they gave him a nice picture there. This is what they do. But this is what government does. This is what public relations is. I mean, the Bush administration, I'll defend them for a second. They were doing their job.

SANCHEZ: Yes. You know, you're right. And we are -- I would believe, and I guess I can only speak for myself, guilty as charged, for maybe not vetting these properly. And I think all of the networks are going to be looking to make sure something like this doesn't happen again in the future.

AMORE: And you learn from it. You have to learn from it. That's it.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Listen, you know, you got to be honest about something like this. We're all in a learning process.


SANCHEZ: The mayor of Philadelphia, this guy is a wildly popular African-American leader who says, you know what? I'm not voting for Barack Obama and so? That's what he tells me today.

This is us walking today around what is got to be one of the most beautiful city halls in the entire country, also in the nation's capital.


SANCHEZ: We'll be back. Stay with us. We're live from Philly.



VERONICA DE LA CRUZ, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. I'm Veronica De La Cruz. More of RICK ON THE ROAD in just a minute. But first, a check at the headlines.

Pope Benedict has left the U.S. after a historic six-day visit. Today he prayed at Ground Zero asking God to give strength to grieving families. Earlier, he celebrated mass before nearly 60,000 people at Yankee Stadium. He had a message for American, use your freedom wisely.

Piles of debris in parts of Maryland tonight after severe storms lashed the state with high winds and heavy rain. There's also flooding reported there and in Virginia, and more flooding could come in the next day or so. A tornado tore apart the roof of a Maryland Grade School. No injuries have been reported. And with those storms came lightning and some very scary moment above Dallas Airport outside of Washington. You might not believe what you're about to see. Let's bring in Jacqui Jeras now from the CNN weather center to show us.

Hey, Jacqui.

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hey, Veronica. These pictures are incredible. Let's go ahead and roll the tape. This happened at Dallas Airport. Two different planes, actually, were simultaneously -- oh, look at that. Hit by lightning.

Yes, both planes were able to safely land. One was diverted to Baltimore. No one was injured during this incident, but just some amazing video. My husband is a pilot and tells me this happens all the time. And because planes are such good conductors, generally the electricity goes in one side and out the other, and usually doesn't cause a problem.


DE LA CRUZ: All right, Jacqui, thanks much for keeping an eye on it. Let's get you back now to RICK ON THE ROAD, live in Philadelphia. Rick, now talks with Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, a black mayor endorsing Hillary Clinton in a city that is over 40 percent African- American.


SANCHEZ: And you are making no apologies about the fact that you like the guy who is running, who was also African-American president.


SANCHEZ: But you happen to think the other person is a better candidate.

NUTTER: Yes, I do.

SANCHEZ: Are you handling that?


DE LA CRUZ: Also this. More of the pope's moving visit to Ground Zero. It's all coming up next with RICK ON THE ROAD.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think they're being scapegoated. I think we got to figure this out a little better. But I wouldn't use scapegoat. It doesn't scare me. I think we need a little fairness. I want to make sure they're paying taxes and paying their way, but you know, we're a nation of immigrants, so I'm down with that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. You know, Pennsylvanians, it doesn't matter whether they're riding a bike or what they're doing. You stop and put a microphone in front of them, they're going to give you some comments, and they're going to be genuine and for the most part, they're going to be intelligent.

We are at the University of Pennsylvania, we're talking Ivy League, and we're talking to people. As a matter of fact, let's do -- Roger, follow me, if we can. We got some students over here and you know, you guys are Ivy Leaguers. So I'm from Atlanta. That means you guys are pretty cotton picking smart, right? How many of you guys are voting for Barack Obama? One.

How many of you are voting for Hillary Clinton? One.


SANCHEZ: I can probably explain to the viewers, you guys or most of your colleagues here at university are going for the most part for Barack, right?


RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: But -- but! Hold on! You know what's happening? There are final exams going on right now and these Ivy Leaguers, so they've got to be studying so you got this crowd of the Hillary Clinton supporters -


SANCHEZ: Tell me this. Why are you choosing the candidate you have chosen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Well, first of all, it's kind of a myth that all students are going for Barack Obama. First of all, the school paper the other day --

SANCHEZ: The poll showed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Well, "The Daily Pennsylvanian" the other day endorsed Hillary Clinton for president.


SANCHEZ: Why do we hear that Barack Obama has energized students as well as he has?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: Well, he has energized students actually. The Pen Democrats endorsed Barack Obama on March 5th.

SANCHEZ: Well, there you go. See?

What about -- do we have a McCain guy back there?


SANCHEZ: John McCain. Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: He has leadership and experience that we great need right now. And he's willing to stay the course in Iraq in a situation that we just can't hold off.

SANCHEZ: And you say stay the course?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: As I say, stay the course.

SANCHEZ: You guys are great. Thanks for coming out. It's America, we got different opinions, right?

All right. Let's do this. Speaking of Americans, there's a conflict that seems to be taking place in this country, you know. And it's interesting, as we talk about it, something interesting happened today. I was interviewing somebody who is the -- well, the mayor of this wonderful city of Philadelphia -- Michael Nutter. He was outside City Hall. People like him.

This mayor, who is boldly, emphasis boldly, supporting Hillary Clinton and is also dealing with issues like immigration, the immigration debate within his own city. He's wildly popular despite some of these controversies.

Let me show you what happened as we were interrupted by one of his constituents who wanted to introduce him to his family, only in America, who just arrived from Chile. Here it is.





NUTTER: Absolutely. Wonderful relationship we have with Chile.


NUTTER: I met your ambassador not too long ago.


NUTTER: We have a tremendous trade relations.


NUTTER: Yes, absolutely. We have a tremendous trade relationship with Chile.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN SPANISH) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Perhaps, all comes to our ports and we distribute.






SANCHEZ: They treat the Hispanics -- this is a good city to be Hispanic in. You feel comfortable being here?


SANCHEZ: Because, you know, there's a lot -- all over the country people have been not so nice to Hispanics. Do you feel that here?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it is a good city to live in for us.

SANCHEZ: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I mean, people are hard and so we make it better.

SANCHEZ: This guy doing a good job?


SANCHEZ: Really? Why does everybody like him so much?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know -- I think he's had a great impact so far.

NUTTER: Thank you.


NUTTER: Please, please, go ahead.



SANCHEZ: Who's the real superstar in this city, huh? You know, it's interesting. In Philadelphia, I ended up doing translation for the mayor and one of his citizens from Chile, but it really is a slice of politics. I mean the real stuff, where real politicians like this mayor actually go out and talk to real people. This is the kind of stuff you see in cities like Philly. Not so much in Washington. Here now my interview with Mayor Nutter as we continue. We finally got around to the interview when he was done signing autographs and taking pictures. And of course, we start because of what we were talking about there on the immigration debate.


SANCHEZ: Immigration really has become something which has been almost the cause for so much resentment in this country.


SANCHEZ: How do you walk that middle ground in a place where, as they say, there are many frustrated Middle Americans?

NUTTER: Yes. You know, I don't know so much about that. Philadelphia, at least, is a tremendously diverse city. We celebrate our diversity. I think it's a part of the strength of Philadelphia. We're doing more and more outreach to many, many constituencies all over the city.

SANCHEZ: When a guy at Geno's (ph) puts up a sign in your town that says nobody speaks Spanish here, English only spoken here. You know what, it's like a dark --

NUTTER: You know, I called it for what it was. It was inappropriate and does not represent Philadelphia. And, you know, that's one of the things about this country is people can pretty much say whatever they want.

SANCHEZ: I ask you a question for you which has been almost a sensitive issue.


SANCHEZ: You're an African-American.

NUTTER: That is true.

SANCHEZ: One of the most prominent and rising politicians in the United States and you are making no apologies about the fact that you like the guy who is running and who is also an African-American for president. But you happen to think the other person is a better candidate.

NUTTER: Yes, I do.

SANCHEZ: Are you handling that?

NUTTER: What's to apologize about? This is America. You can vote for whomever you want. You can support whomever you want. When I ran in last year's Democratic primary, there were five of us in the race, three African-Americans and two whites. All of us had varying levels of support from a variety of communities. Fortunately, I was successful in that primary, got 40 percent of the African-American vote, 37 percent of the white vote. I'm pleased about it. This is an election. Democrats love primaries. We're very active in them and when it's all over, whoever our ultimate Democratic nominee is, that's who I'm going to be standing next to because we want to win in November.

SANCHEZ: But don't you have some of your own friends coming to you and, tell me the truth now, and saying, come on, Mayor, this guy's one of us.


SANCHEZ: How can you not support him?

NUTTER: You know what my friends say? Hey, like the things that you're doing. We may have a difference of opinion about this one and Wednesday, the 23rd, I'll still love you. That's what they say.

SANCHEZ: What's your gut telling you about what's going to happen Tuesday? The polls are saying that it's getting real tight. That's not good news for the candidate that you're supporting.

NUTTER: Well, a couple of things. One, there is going to be a lot of folks out voting. Of course, in Philadelphia and the suburbs all across Pennsylvania. That is tremendously exciting for all of us regardless of who you're for.

Second, we always expect, especially in Pennsylvania, that polls tighten. People are now focused on the race. They know about these candidates. There aren't that many people still trying to figure out who to support, but there is still a little bit of confusion out there.


NUTTER: Lastly, from my perspective at least, a win is a win. It's not about by how much and all sort of that kind of stuff. I leave that --

SANCHEZ: But it's a numbers game. She needs to win. She needs to put some -- get the delegates.

NUTTER: I understand that. She's got to put some good numbers on the board and there's still nine other states and territories that are yet to vote. Neither candidate, neither candidate, can get enough delegates to take the nomination on their own.

So, we know we're going into a convention without either being a straight up nominee. We've never seen anything like this in any of our life times. Two historic candidates. A woman, an African- American man. American public still trying to figure out what's going on. About a million votes separated them after 28 million people have voted and most folks thought this race would be over one way or the other back in early February.

SANCHEZ: And here we are in Pennsylvania.

NUTTER: Yes, exactly.

SANCHEZ: Mr. Mayor, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

NUTTER: All right. Thank you, Rick.


SANCHEZ: You know, it's funny how everybody does spin the numbers different ways. And you know, you talk to Barack Obama supporters and they're going to tell you, look, we're up, we're up and a win is a win, even if you win by one.

You talk to Hillary Clinton supporters and they say, oh, no, this thing is so close it's just a veritable tie. Interesting perspective. And that's what people are going to be arguing about, but a lot of the decision is going to be made in this case on Tuesday.

This panel, by the way, before we go to the break. You guys are saying no matter which one of these Democrats win, McCain could take Pennsylvania?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SANCHEZ: Raise your hand if you think that's true.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're all together on this. For once they agree with me. It's the Republicans who win. It's a suburban area.

SANCHEZ: You know, it's funny. I'm sure there's a lot of people who disagree with you. But you guys are as smart as they come when it comes to (INAUDIBLE). We'll come back to you. My producer's yelling at me. We'll get to you, guys, in just a minute. I know you're passionate about this.

Interview with Representative Patrick Murphy is coming up. Now, he's the other side of this. He supports Barack Obama. Stay with us. Hey, we're live. We're in Philly and we are here as well and also the Pope was at Ground Zero. That is a winner, but how about when it comes to talking about our country's contentious immigration debate?

That's where things get a little serious. We'll be talking about it and we are, have we told you, at an Ivy League school, by golly, the University of Pennsylvania. We'll be back in just a little bit. Stay with us.


SANCHEZ: Pope Benedict XVI arriving at the house that Ruth built as in Babe Ruth. I don't know if the Pope is a baseball player. 60,000 Catholic faithful turned out to attend the Pope-led mass at Yankee Stadium. The Pope's message -- heavy on freedom, obedience and recognition of church authority. Some say he's a constructionist pope. I talked to many today who said, well, maybe not. The Pope also prayed at Ground Zero, asking God to help grieving families, heal and to give new direction to people who are consumed, quote, "With hatred."

Well, Senators Clinton and Obama are fighting over Pennsylvania's estimated 4 million Catholic voters. How do they break? Let's go to Jim Acosta. He's live across town now. He's got more on the politics of the nomination and faith in this case.

Look, if there's one group of people in this country who've been tough to figure out, it's Catholics. They're not monolithic by any stretch, right?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Rick, but Hillary Clinton has done quite well in this demographic, beating Barack Obama by wide margins among Catholics in places like Texas and Ohio. But Barack Obama has a key Catholic at his side here in Pennsylvania.


ACOSTA (voice-over): With Catholics making up a third of the Democratic vote in Pennsylvania, they are a force to be reckoned with.

MAUREEN KELLY, CATHOLIC VOTER: I would love to see a woman in office.

ACOSTA: Maureen Kelly, who spends her lunch breaks at midday mass in Philadelphia, is passionate about ending the war in Iraq.

KELLY: And that's why a lot of people do not want to vote Republican because if John McCain gets in, that's going to be a continuation of the Bush administration of war. We need to stop it.

ACOSTA: Hillary Clinton is heavily favored to win over Keystone State Catholics and she may get a hand from Barack Obama, who offended some Catholics when he talked about his own daughter's abortion rights.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.

ACOSTA: But Democratic Senator Bob Casey, Obama's top surrogate in Pennsylvania and a pro-life Catholic himself, isn't so sure that punished with a baby comment will be decisive.

SEN. BOB CASEY (D), PENNSYLVANIA: That's a difficult burden for someone that young to bear, and I think that's the point he was trying to make.

ACOSTA: Casey believes the Democratic Party is actually engaging Catholics in a way not seen in years by speaking more openly about its faith.

CASEY: It had the image years ago of being a secular party and I think that was a mistake. So, we should talk about it more in a way that's constructive, not as a way to divide, not as a way to dictate.

ACOSTA: And the Pope's message to America, which sought to heal rather than divide, could resonate in Pennsylvania, according to religion and public policy expert Ram Cnaan.

PROF. RAM CNAAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: I expect a much larger percentage of Catholics in Pennsylvania to go to vote than if it was without the Pope's visit.

ACOSTA: Because they'll be energized?

CNAAN: They'll be energized.

ACOSTA: Maureen Kelly is inspired, but says she's uncomfortable mixing politics with her religion.

KELLY: I think the last president emphasized religion and I don't think he has proven himself with his so-called Christian beliefs. She insists her vote is much more than a leap of faith.


ACOSTA: And both Democrats seem to have Catholic voters on their minds. This weekend, Barack Obama was on the trail with Senator Ted Kennedy and Clinton campaigned in Bethlehem -- Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, that is.


SANCHEZ: All right. Thanks so much. You know, the Pope was at the World Trade Center earlier in the day and he did pray for those who died, those who lost loved ones on 9/11, something that's still painful in this country.

Our guests now are Thomas and James Riches. They lost their brother and their son, Jimmy, September 11th. So this, I imagine, was a powerful day for you guys, being there with the Pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Very emotional day.

SANCHEZ: Did you feel that the Pope's presence there was going to make a difference for you as an American in terms of being able to deal with this pain?

I'm being told we had some problems with the audio. That's all right. We'll try and get back to them in just a little bit. It's a great story that they're going to be sharing with us. We'll have more on that.

We're also going to have more on the immigration debate in the United States and now with the Pope's message, one does begin to wonder if he's going into a fray that is extremely contentious and what the effect will be on the Catholic Church in that regard. We'll have that and a whole lot more for you.

We apologize for losing that satellite signal, by the way. We'll see if we can get it back.

In the meantime, we do want to let you know that we are here at the University of Pennsylvania, not Penn state, right? And the folks here are up. We're coming right back. Stay with us.


SANCHEZ: And we do welcome you back over the excited crowd here. Many of them for Barack Obama. More of them, interestingly enough, for Hillary Clinton here in this particular area. It's certainly not representative of anything. It's not like we got a scientific poll.

Although the fact that these folks came out -- a lot of the students here that we thought we're going to be coming out, we were told by the faculty, they're taking final exams, man. They're going to an Ivy League school. They got to be hitting the books tonight. So, we expected more would be here, but we're happy to have the Hillary supporters nonetheless. We're glad you're here.


SANCHEZ: Here's a message that may not go over so well in some circles. The Pope urging the United States to embrace immigrants, even illegal immigrants. Take a listen to what he said during his New York visit.


POPE BENEDICT XVI, CATHOLIC CHURCH LEADER: In these 200 years, the face of the Catholic Community in your country has changed greatly. We think of the successive waves of immigrants whose traditions have so enriched the Church in America.

We think of the strong faith which built up the network of churches, educational, health care and social institutions which have long been the hallmark of the Church in this land.


SANCHEZ: I want to do something now. I want to bring in a couple of gentlemen who know the Pope's message and what it means, what it could mean for us as Americans -- Catholic Americans.

Monsignor Joseph Kelly is from the Archdiocese of Scranton, PA and he's a coordinator of Hispanic affairs for the archdiocese. Here's also Desales University Professor Brennan Pursell who wrote "Benedict of Bavaria", the first papal biography that demonstrates the influence Pope Benedict's Bavarian culture had on the development of the way he's come to think, his ideology, what makes him the pope.

First topic with them, immigration.


What the Pope seems to be saying is the idea of separating families is, in fact he says, truly dangerous. What I think there's really a hidden message there. I think what he's really saying is, be careful how you treat the least amongst us, right?

MSGR JOSEPH KELLY, CATHOLIC HUMAN SERVICES: Absolutely. And that's Catholic social doctrine at its very fundamental.

SANCHEZ: This is important for the Catholic Church to come out and say this, but politically it's kind of a dangerous game, isn't it?

PROF. BRENNAN PURSELL, DESALES UNIVERSITY: It is. It is a dangerous sort of game, but he has no choice. He has to speak. The Church always has to speak for the downtrodden, for the voiceless, for the disenfranchised and for the suffering. And by the way --

SANCHEZ: But there are people, Brennan, in the United States who say I'm suffering. You know why I'm suffering? Because these illegal immigrants are coming over here and they're taking my jobs and they're doing this and they're doing that. That's what they would say.

PURSELL: This is absolutely true, but that doesn't mean that families where -- established by people who come in to the United States whether illegally or legally are getting broken up by sporadic and irregular enforcement.

Come on, if there's 12 million illegal immigrants in this country -- no one knows the number -- and if the Feds sometimes wrap up 30 or 40, couldn't they do it in a slightly more humane way?

SANCHEZ: Monsignor, is there a frustration that's just felt by Americans that's maybe misplaced. $3 trillion in Iraq, they say. Cost of gasoline up to $4 a gallon. Apparently, all kinds of problems with jobs being shipped overseas. Who are you going to blame? Who are you going to blame?

KELLY: Absolutely. You blame those who can't defend themselves.

SANCHEZ: The brown guy over there, right?

KELLY: And the truth of the matter is that these families are hardworking families. I've been dealing with the Hispanic community for the last 10 years. And I will tell you that they have the same values that my parents had, that all other immigrants have had. They're here for a reason. They're here for their families.

SANCHEZ: Can this Church, can this Pope afford to enter a fray that is filled with so much resentment, so many strong feelings on both sides?

PURSELL: Which is exactly why he didn't mention any details of the legislation. That's not his job. He has no choice but to appeal for the weak and raise questions of great moral importance. But it is the bishop's job to do that and it's their right. If they're Americans, they have the right to free speech.

SANCHEZ: So, what do you mean it's the bishop's? So, who's going to be the one speaking for all these immigrants in the United States who feel like they're really being put upon right now?

PURSELL: It depends on the region because in some regions the situation is handled better than another --

SANCHEZ: But is it the Pope or is it the bishops?

PURSELL: It should be the bishops, but the Pope leads the way. Doesn't it, Monsignor?

KELLY: Absolutely.

SANCHEZ: Is he leading the way?

KELLY: Yes, very definitely.

SANCHEZ: What is he saying to you?

KELLY: He's saying to me through his encyclical "Deus Caritas Est" that organizations such as mine, Catholic charities, that we have moral obligation to take care of the poor and the disenfranchised among us.

SANCHEZ: Even if it conflicts with the message of the day.

KELLY: Absolutely. Even if it costs money. Even if it costs the acceptance of the people in the pews. The fact is that this is Catholic teaching and sometimes Catholic teaching is difficult.

SANCHEZ: Brennan?


SANCHEZ: I thought you were going to say something.

PURSELL: Yes. The idea that you'd ever want someone to show an idea -- mass or soup kitchen is obscene and tyrannical. But should the legal situation sorted out that you should show some idea in order to -- you know, buy some property or have a job or do other things, that's up to the political leadership. But the bishops and the Pope has to remind everyone that we're dealing with human beings.

SANCHEZ: Yes, well, it's what the book says, isn't it? It's what the book says about treating people --

PURSELL: It conflicts with it, I wish they had --

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you something that's a little more clear cut. This country, American Catholics like myself are still hurting somewhat from the sexual abuse scandal. There's no doubt about that.

Did this Pope say enough to make people feel like, look, we messed up, we shouldn't have done this and we're going to make it better and you can trust us in the future. We guarantee you we're not going mess up like this again. Did he say those words or something akin?

PURSELL: He said those words. He said something akin to it. For some people, it will not be enough. And for other people, I've already started hearing this, it's too much. I hear people say he went overboard.

Sure, there's a big debate about it. But when you're the Pope, not everyone is going to agree with you and everyone is going to attack you for something. But I think he said just the right thing and he met with some of the families whose abuse had been substantiated.

SANCHEZ: That was a bold move. John Paul wouldn't have done that.

KELLY: I don't know whether he would have or not, but I will tell you that the kindness of this man comes through in the way in which he handles individuals. Not only did me meet with people that had been sexually abused, but he also met with victims of 9/11 and he looked each one of those in the face. If you see --

SANCHEZ: And for a constructionist pope who's supposed to be the guy who's going by the book, it is different.

Gentlemen, we are out of time. Wonderful conversation. Brennan, Monsignor, thanks so much for being with us here.


SANCHEZ: God bless you.


SANCHEZ: I guess that's ever been appropriate, it's now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thanks very much.



SANCHEZ: You know, there's really good arguments on both sides of this issue. And I think it's -- one of those arguments that probably is not going to be able to settle down for quite some time, but, look, I was not born in this country. I'm an immigrant to the United States.

So obviously, I'm very much affected by a story like this. When I wanted to know more about the story, I decided that I would -- I'm not sure what this is -- can you come back to me, Roge, real quick? Roge, can you come back to me real quick on camera? Thanks.

Here's the point. When I decided that I wanted to get more information on the story I started thinking to myself, who should I talk to? I decided that I would interview my mother and my father. People who don't speak hardly a lick of English, who came to this country as well. What's their perspective on this?

It's very personal, but I'm going to share that with you when we come back. And that's a part of that video what we're rolling right now. I know it got a little confusing. Also this -- George Stephanopoulos played Barack Obama's reaction to his debate today on his show, but he didn't play all of it. Why did he take out what many would consider to be the most important part? We'll talk about that with our panel and our audience. We'll be right back. Stay with us. We are at the University of Pennsylvania.