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Nancy Grace
FLDS Parents Skip DNA Testing
Aired April 22, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: The single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history all comes down after a secret and desperate phone call for help, 437 children, over 100 women rescued from a remote and isolated Texas compound. Headlines tonight: All 437 children, still in state custody, head for foster care by the busload. This on the heels of DNA testing by a crime lab on wheels rolling through the San Angelo Coliseum. Adult sect members also submit to DNA tests forced on them by the court. With fears mounting behind compound walls the so-called "outside world" could use DNA to build similar (ph) cases, will other moms and dads from that compound comply? Tonight, the Lone Star State gears up for legal battle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kids from that polygamy ranch in Texas shipped off in buses again, judge`s orders. Right in the middle of this huge DNA matchup, they`re off to foster homes now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think they can sleep at night?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know for a fact that my little girl won`t sleep unless she is -- has her arms wrapped around somebody that she loves. And her mother is not there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: DNA samples are being collected today from adult members of a polygamist sect in Texas. Now, the goal is to sort out which child belongs to which parent. Testing for the more than 400 children started yesterday at a coliseum in San Angelo, Texas, and it turns out the number of kids in state custody is more than we previously thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, police on high alert, three small children kidnapped just outside their own elementary schools, the 6, 7, and 11-year- olds believed to be in extreme danger tonight after their mother found dead in their own home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chicago police have issued an Amber Alert for these three missing children. They say 6-year-old Oscar Cassanova(ph), 7- year-old Karla Cassanova (ph), and 11-year-old Fernando (ph) Cassanova have not been seen since Friday. Their mother, Sophia Garcia (ph), was found dead with a plastic bag over her head Monday on the northwest side of Chicago, in her home. Investigators say they`re looking for the father of two of the children, 32-year-old Benito (ph) Cassanova.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: 437 children rescued from a remote Texas compound, girls as young as 13, forced to marry much older men, now all headed for foster care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of the 437 children are being moved, hauled away from San Angelo Coliseum on buses. The judge gave the order today to move them into foster homes. The question we`ve been focusing on with the polygamy ranch in Texas, what`s going to happen to these kids?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re still going to need their mothers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What hurts you the most?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, not having our children. It is terrible for them to have done what they`ve done, and those children are suffering because of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent. What happened to all the moms and dads? Why didn`t they show up for DNA testing today?
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, some did, Nancy. We think maybe a dozen or a couple of dozen showed up, but those who did not, we suspect did not because perhaps they are afraid of being accused of child abuse. We know that we did see -- our CNN crew did see some men and some women going to the courthouse lawn in Eldorado to get those tests, but not nearly as many as 437 children here at the Coliseum.
GRACE: To Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, didn`t a judge order them to submit to DNA testing, about 175 moms and dads?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, she ordered a lot of them to go. She gave them the strict order to go. And even more, she asked them very politely to voluntarily go in. The ones she ordered to go in to have DNA testing were the ones that were found, their names on this list, of people that were apparently married to 13, 14, 15-year-old girls, a list that they found inside of the church, inside of the compound. Those are the ones that she said, You must go get DNA testing. Others in the compound, where they may be suspected they were part of polygamy or may be suspected that they were part of child marriages, they strongly suggested them to go. And see, what the judge was basically saying was, If you want any shot of ever getting your kids back, you better get in there and get your DNA.
GRACE: But what I don`t understand, Susan Roesgen, is that while they all claim they want their children back, only a handful of people showed up for DNA testing. Why don`t they want the state, the state of Texas, to know this is their child?
ROESGEN: Well, because they claim it`s invasive, that this is a test that`s invasive, that they shouldn`t have to go through it. They`re fearful of the state of Texas. They don`t necessarily follow the state of Texas laws, Nancy. You know, they follow their own laws and their own prophet, Warren Jeffs. So that`s some of what they have said on the record for why they don`t want to go. Again, they may not want to go, especially the men, in case they might be accused of child abuse or underage marriage.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They took my little 7-year-old girl. They lied to us. CPS lied. And she told me a few days ago, she said, Mother, all they do is lie. They`re just telling us lies and lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What lies?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said they tell us one thing and they do another thing. They say that we`re going to be together, and they don`t let us be together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do 14, 15, 16-year-old girls get married here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are talking about our children right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand. But does that happen here? Are 16- year-old girls married to older men here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is about our children.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is about our children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you share a husband with many other wives?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot answer that at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is sacred to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I take that to mean you do share a husband with other wives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It may or may not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is life like here? I don`t think people can comprehend...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know the definition of Zion?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heaven on earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe you live in heaven on earth?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. This is what I do. It is heaven on earth to me. I am not abused. I am not brainwashed. I am a living person. I have a hard time making CPS realize this. I am a human being with a heart. I am not abused. I have only been loved, worked with. My husband has been the most patient man in the world with me, loving me and helping me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, back to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. The headline tonight is that many of these 437 children have now headed off to foster homes. At the same time, the Texas judge has ordered the adults, Come in for DNA testing so we can figure out what kid goes to what parents. How can it be that all of these people, the children are raised not knowing who their biological mother is? They think they`ve got several different mothers? I mean, how does this work?
BOARD: Well, kids get passed around from family to family, from wife to wife, from husband to husband. That`s what happens in this cult, that kids are just passed around. They don`t know who their real dads are. They probably don`t know who their real moms are.
And when they got removed today, places like here in San Antonio, all across the state, CPS investigators say this is the only way they will be able to figure out what exactly goes on on this compound. Once they get them out of this toxic environment on this compound, they can finally get across to the kids and figure out, yes, you know, did the 13-year-olds and 14-year-olds get married? And what we`ve been told, yes, 14, 15, 16-year- old kids getting married to parents. That will finally come out once they get them away from the husbands and the wives who have been watching over them, telling them exactly what to say and how to act and how to cry on queue.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Kim in Louisiana. Hi, Kim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. I would like to know how they`re getting public assistance if there are no birth certificates.
GRACE: You are so correct. What about it, Susan Roesgen? Not only are -- it`s called in that culture "bleeding the beast." They hate the U.S. government, apparently. They do not respect our laws. But yet they are willing to take Welfare checks. All those women don`t have legal husbands, they have spiritual husbands, so they get a Welfare check.
ROESGEN: Yes. It`s true, Nancy. They take what they wish from the outside world, and the rest of the outside world to them is evil. They don`t keep that many accurate records. They have been asked for those records, and they haven`t always provided them.
And getting back to the children and how the children are -- you know, sometimes they really don`t know how old they are. They`re not really told. It can be true that sometimes they`ve been coached and they have not been given the correct dates by their parents. But other times, they just don`t know. I mean, this is such an insular world, they don`t know and they don`t care because they`re going to have spiritual wives and spiritual husbands. What difference does it make to them?
GRACE: Let`s go out to Kathy Jo Nicholson. She grew up in the FLDS community and she was a student of Warren Jeffs. Now, many people within the FLDS will tell you that they worship Warren Jeffs, who is now sitting in a penitentiary for conspiracy to have sex with underage girls and arrange these spiritual marriages. What I don`t understand, Kathy Jo Nicholson, how do you get by and lie without having a birth certificate, without a Social Security number, but yet you get Welfare checks?
KATHY JO NICHOLSON, GREW UP IN FLDS COMMUNITY: You know, I can`t speak to that because when I was in the community in Salt Lake, we -- although we had midwives that would help the mothers bear their children, they were reported. I don`t know -- obviously, on the ranch, there are many infants, and perhaps they don`t keep record of their age because that would come into play with the underage marriages. Perhaps that`s why they don`t let the children know how old they are. But I don`t know how they collect Welfare in that community.
GRACE: Kathy Jo, why do you believe that the adults -- even after a judge has ordered them to submit to a DNA testing -- are refusing? It`s just an oral swab. It`s like having your tonsils checked. Why are they refusing? They want their kids back and they want this all cleared up. Why are they refusing to give DNA samples?
NICHOLSON: You know, my assumption would be that -- and I do have a couple of very close sources that are close to the Colorado City community that have told me that the favored wives were taken to the Texas compound and all of the children were taken to that compound. So perhaps they`re afraid -- obviously, maybe the men are afraid of the government knowing that they did have sex with underage girls. But perhaps they`re also afraid that the government may find out that they are not biologically related to some of these children, that they`ve been kidnapped.
GRACE: Back out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by there in Texas. How many adults were ordered to submit to DNA testing, Susan?
ROESGEN: Well, really, about 175, Nancy. And again, it`s been sort of a compulsory and yet voluntary thing. The authorities decided they would not go on the ranch to test them themselves, and so they have to rely on these adults to come in to Eldorado to be tested, into the city of Eldorado. And so far, again, we think maybe a couple of dozen out of 175.
GRACE: To David Samuel Brown. He is an ad litem attorney. He is representing an FLDS child. Mr. Brown, thank you for being with us. How will it hinder you helping your client get back to their mom and dad if the parents refuse to submit to DNA testing?
DAVID SAMUEL BROWN, AD LITEM ATTORNEY FOR FLDS CHILD: Well, Nancy, thanks for having me. It would make it very difficult, obviously, if they don`t submit to DNA testing, especially the way the CPS is looking at it. Now, in talking to several other ad litems and other people, and even it came out in open court, some of the parents are saying they do have birth certificates for their children, they do have marriage licenses with the mothers of these children. And so they may be looking at presumptive paternity and maternity statutes in Texas.
GRACE: And also -- with us tonight, everyone, David Samuel Brown. He is one of the attorneys who stepped up to the plate and has hit a home run. He is representing one of these children. As you know, over 400 children removed from behind the walls of that isolated and remote Texas compound.
The children, as of tonight, many, many of them are being shipped off to foster care. This must be an incredible culture shock for them.
BROWN: I think it`s a great culture shock. I mean, you have some young children that are basically being torn from the breasts of their mother. And I think that`s horrible. As of today, what I`m hearing is that the older children have been moved, the younger children are still at the Coliseum.
GRACE: To Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, I understood that mothers who were breast-feeding, that are minors themselves, are staying with their children.
BOARD: Yes. CPS has made a big effort to keep the children who have been removed from the compound together in a family setting. Now, what we know is that some of these children removed from the compound have children of their own. They`re keeping them together. So in some cases, a mother is staying with her child. But you have to look at it as kids staying together because it`s kids having kids, a very strange situation.
GRACE: Michael, how many underage pregnant moms or nursing moms do we have?
BOARD: I think the last report that we got of the underage mothers that have been removed from the ranch that are pregnant was about 12 to 18. That`s how many were pregnant. I know some of them have either gone into labor or have already started -- already given birth. So that`s one of the reasons why the number keeps changing, is we get more kids.
As far as how many are underage, I -- you know, that`s -- we don`t know because a lot of them lie about their age. A lot of them don`t know when they were born. When they talked to CPS investigators, they either didn`t know their age or they lied about their age a couple of times. Some of them who were obviously under 18 said, Oh, I`m over 18, I`m 19, I`m 21 years old. CPS investigators noticed something fishy was going on. That`s why we say some of the numbers have changed.
GRACE: You know, there is no good answer here. As attorney David Samuel Brown pointed out, allegedly, some moms still even breast-feeding being taken away to from children. But the reality -- to Ray Giudice and Doug Burns -- is, Ray, that the state is alleging systematic child abuse on girls as young as 13. When there is a home with child abuse going on in it, all the kids are taken out.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s exactly right. I mean, the state has to act in the best interests of all the children, not just the child who may have been harmed, but to prevent future harm to any of the other children.
GRACE: What about it, Doug Burns?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree. And it also depends how you`re going to define a home. I mean, they pulled 400 people out of one venue, that`s going to present a legal issue, versus individual houses that they`re living in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the state treating you fairly?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think about us?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we`re not in the court system. We didn`t (ph) get our kids taken away. And I think it`s fair enough (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel about the state? I mean, you guys were living your lives, and that`s about it. And you know, how do you feel about that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) no words to describe the anger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m very confused (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: That`s a shot of many of the women there on that Texas compound.
I want to go straight back out to the lines. Sandy in California. Hi, Sandy. Sandy, are you with me? OK, no Sandy. Let`s go to Marylin in Rhode Island. Hi, Marylin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s a pleasure to speak with you. And my beloved late mother would be very proud of her native state for stepping up to the plate here, Texas.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God bless them. Question. What`s the status of the men on the compound? Are they under any kind of restraining order, or can they flee the jurisdiction to go back to Utah and Arizona, where apparently, the attorneys general and the district attorneys didn`t do anything about this?
GRACE: Susan Roesgen, is it true that many of the dads and some of the moms, there`s a fear that they have actually left town?
ROESGEN: Yes, that fear is true, Nancy. And it could be that they have left because, you know, none of them are under actual arrest warrants, they`re just free to go. There was the one guy, Dale Barlow, out in Arizona, that was initially on the arrest warrant. It seems like they got the wrong guy. So the men here, yes, they`re free to go. They`re not under any compulsion to stay.
GRACE: Out to the lines -- uh-oh. Hold on. Lost the next caller.
Let`s go out to a guest joining us tonight, Franklin, exiled from the FLDS community. Franklin, thank you for being with us.
FRANKLIN, EXILED FROM FLDS COMMUNITY: Hey.
GRACE: Franklin, now that you`re hearing many of the moms and dads are, one, not submitting to DNA testing to prove these are their children, and two, actually leaving town, what do you make of it?
FRANKLIN: Well, what it sounds like to me is that the parents are fearing that what has gone on is that the children have been raised up by a different mother, such as myself. Like I said previously in...
GRACE: You know, hold on, Franklin. I`m having a really hard time hearing you. We`ll be right back with you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When their socks get holes in them, we have a sweet, sweet grandmother that patches them so they don`t go around with holes in their socks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Let`s go out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner joining us from Madison Heights, Michigan. Dr. Morrone, there`s nothing for these people to fear in a simple oral swab. Explain how the DNA test is taken.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: This is the way it works. You get an oral swab in the mouth. This swab is then analyzed through a chain of custody, and that chain of custody is what`s going to take all the time. And it goes through a process called PCR, polymerase chain reaction. And then they develop a DNA profile for the child, the possible mother -- or the mother and then the possible father, and see if they match.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Doug Burns. How can they complain about not getting their children back if they won`t go submit to the testing?
BURNS: No, Nancy, it`s a classic criminal situation. They`re between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, you`re right, it`s not intrusive. What`s the big deal? But if it creates evidence against them, and more importantly, against the men who may be still controlling them, that may be what`s behind all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are just pretty normal. We`re just normal people. We go to school. We teach the children to be clean. And we`re just normal. We don`t have TV. We don`t...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a college degree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t sit and watch the TV, and we don`t eat junk food.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The authorities say, first of all, that they were rushed when they were counting the kids, they say it was simply too quick of a count, and since then, they`ve had time to go back and make a more accurate assessment. But they also say that some of the young women claim to be 18 years old or older and in fact they later admitted that they were not, that they`re juveniles. That`s apparently what the difference is. So they say the number could change again if more young girls are determined to be juveniles instead of adults.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: As of this hour, many of those 437 children rescued from that Texas compound are headed to foster care.
Back out to one of the attorneys representing one of those children for free, I might add, David Samuel Brown, Texas lawyer. I`m still confounded why the parents refused to submit to a DNA test and they`re letting their kids go off to foster care.
DAVID SAMUEL BROWN, AD LITEM ATTY. REPRESENTING FLDS CHILD: Well, I`m really confused. I haven`t heard that -- what percentage of parents are not submitting to that. Some of the parents that I`ve spoken with have told me they would submit to that, so as of right now, I can`t answer why they wouldn`t do that. It seems like a fairly innocuous type of thing if they have nothing to hide.
GRACE: t to the lines. Steve in Connecticut. Hi, Steve.
STEVE, CONNECTICUT RESIDENT: Hi, I am here. Perseverance is a virtue and I`ve been hanging on for a half hour and I`ve tried for four days to get through to you.
GRACE: You know what? With that lead-up, it better be a good question. What is it, Steve?
STEVE: So I am not a Mormon. I`m not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. But I have many, many friends who are.
GRACE: Question?
STEVE: My question is, I would be very interested to know what the hierarchy or the bosses of the Mormon Church in Utah, in Salt Lake City, think of this situation down in Texas and Arizona.
GRACE: Good question, Steve. Let`s go out to Susan Roesgen. They repeatedly distanced themselves from the FLDS by saying, no, no, no, no, that`s not us.
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You bet, Nancy, and they did it again just today. I saw a statement released from the Mormon Church, from their PR folks in Salt Lake City saying, "We are not encouraging you to give money to this FLDS sect here. We are not encouraging this in any way."
Our understanding, Nancy, is that you`re absolutely right. The Mormon Church wants to say, whoa, those guys are crazy. They`re the polygamists, the multiple wives, and we don`t do any of that. And at the same time, we`re hearing here in San Angelo, Texas that the FLDS, the Yearning for Zion folks, don`t like the Mormon Church any better. They feel as if they`ve sold out, they`ve given in, and this is the true Mormon Church right here in Eldorado. So neither group likes the other one.
GRACE: And the giving in aspect that Susan`s referring to is the ban by the Mormon Church about 100 years ago on polygamy, then a splinter sect of the Mormon Church, the FLDS was founded. And every time there`s a raid like this, they go further and further underground.
Is it true, Michael Board, that many of the children were actually sickened by the, not only culture shocked, but the food that they were given -- not that there`s anything wrong with the food, but they`ve never had anything processed.
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: You have to remember that this -- on the compound, they lived on porridge, curds, unprocessed food, everything was organic. So to be taken off a compound like that, obviously a little culture shock. There were able 25, 26 cases of chicken pox. But in any group like this, any small village like this, you`re going to see small cases of diseases like this. They said that they had seen little coughs and little.
GRACE: Small cases. Did you say 29 cases?
BOARD: Yes, about 25, 26 cases of chicken poxes.
GRACE: Twenty-six cases of chicken pox?
BOARD: Well, you have to remember that they don`t, you know, they don`t go to the doctor like we go to. This is a small city here. They have everything they have there. So they don`t go to the doctor to get, you know, all the immunizations, all this checkups like we get here. They are their own little villages. There were coughs, there were fevers, stuff like this. Anytime that there`s a culture shock like that, you`ll see this.
But they say that they`re not traumatized, that they would go into a serious problem, there`s no serious sickness, there`s so serious illness with this group. Just, you know, that they`re just not used to where they`re going, so of course they`re going to be a little bit traumatized.
GRACE: Out to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. Lauren, the thought of culture shock for these children, could it all be avoided if the parents would do the right thing and give the DNA test? And what would the children be going through right now. They`re headed for foster care.
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, unfortunately, this is a no-win, Nancy. There`s -- no good can come of this. This cannot end well. And whether the parents show up for DNA testing or not, the children have still been exposed to a reality that says, the way you live, what you know, your belief system, your culture is not average, normal, accepted.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Kim in Washington. Hi, Kim.
KIM, WASHINGTON RESIDENT: Hi. I was raised Mormon and this is not the LDS church, I hate to tell you guys. They`re totally against this. And they`re not affiliated with them at all. And what they`re doing to those children is just unforgivable. I`m sorry. I`m emotional, but I`m so glad, Nancy, that you stick up for the children.
GRACE: You know, Kim. I know that the Mormon Church is mortified that this is somehow being connected to them. And what I`m thinking about tonight, Kim, is when children are taken from homes where there is abuse or child sex abuse, all the children get taken away. These kids are not just getting taken away. But they`re in a culture unlike anything they have ever known. They`re away from their mother, they`re away from their family, they`re away from their whole world.
And Mike Brooks, what`s burning me up is that many of these mothers are refusing to go down and give a DNA test. I would get those kids and leave this. There are a million ways to practice Christianity other than being on a compound locked up behind walls in Texas.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Absolutely, Nancy. And they`re worried about some of these parents, who have already maybe fled the state and leaving their kids behind. You know, but hopefully there`s one little glinter of hope here, Nancy, is last week we talked about those six women who were in a safe house.
Hopefully, and I pray to God, Nancy, that these women are turning evidence on all these other people in the compound, the ones who were fleeing, the ones who are staying, and are helping the Texas authorities to substantiate a case for sexual assault, bigamy. And my other question, Nancy, what do the men on this compound do? Are they living off the women and their welfare fraud scheme? That`s what it sounds like to me.
GRACE: I want to go back to Michael Board. Very quickly, Michael, as if it couldn`t get any more bizarre, who is this woman, the woman that they may or may not connect up to the call by the alleged 16-year-old girl, Sarah?
BOARD: She lives in Colorado Springs and apparently she`s made accusations like this against this same church and they`re looking in to see that she`s made this as well. She`s been named a person of interest in this case. She`s not a suspect, but she could be that mystery Sarah that made these calls.
GRACE: Has she been arrested?
BOARD: No, she is just a person of interest.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Michael, that she`s made similar calls in the past, claiming to be someone she`s not, Rozita Swinton?
BOARD: Well, yes. She made calls in the past. This is a separate case. She made calls in the past alleging abuse, calls to the police, and she was busted for that.
GRACE: I want to go back out to the lawyers. Ray Giudice, Doug burns.
Ray, if Sarah, the original complainant that made that phone allegedly from a borrowed cell phone from behind the compound walls, if she doesn`t exist, what does that mean for the rest of the case?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. The constitution basis says if the law enforcement is operating on a good faith basis, I don`t think that`s going to be a problem. Here`s where, I think, the problem arises, that if it`s not a good faith basis, if there`s evidence that they knew this person was fraud and that this was just a pretext, an unexcused violation of these folks` rights in that compound, to violate their rights and take their children away, I think that`s where the problem comes in.
GRACE: Agree, Dough?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I do agree. He`s talking about Liam case, U.S. Supreme Court that says if they`re in good faith, they put in erroneous information, but they honestly believe that in good faith, then the court will not invalidate a warrant.
But here, the word hoax is a strong word. So if it`s a complete hoax, could be tough. But I`ll also add lastly, that a lot of information she gave, Nancy, this was very curious, turned out to be very, very accurate. So that`s an interesting footnote.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Canada. Hi, Julie.
JULIE, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear.
JULIE: I know that some of the women were saying that they had the chance -- the mothers, to either go back to the ranch or go to a women`s shelter. I was wondering if any of the women before they were separated from the children reached out for help or went to the women`s shelter.
GRACE: I know that six of them have gone to the shelter, to the safe house, no more than six at this juncture.
To Kathy Jo Nicholson, what do you think? You were raised up in the FLDS world. What do you think is happening now behind those compound walls? The women have all gone back, the men are leaving town. What`s happening?
KATHY JO NICHOLSON, GREW UP IN FLDS COMMUNITY STUDENT OF POLYGAMOUS LEADER WARREN JEFFS: I`m not sure that all of the -- I`m sure that some of the most terrifying men are staying on the property, I would imagine, to guard the women. There`s nothing that these women have to lose, legally, I don`t believe. The only thing that would hold them from their children would be the dictation and the terrorization that they have been.
GRACE: Right.
NICHOLSON: .that they have been exposed to all of their lives.
GRACE: Kathy, what was your life like with the FLDS?
NICHOLSON: Pardon me?
GRACE: What was your life like with the FLDS?
NICHOLSON: The terror began when I witnessed the building -- two of my sisters were married to a Jessop and they built a custom home to sit them nicely with a huge kitchen and laundry room and all their children were in nice rooms. And their home, as soon as it was finished, was given to Edson Jessop, Eddie Jessop, who I did see on the news in Texas. So you can have everything taken.
ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORER: State police have issued an AMBER Alert for the three children, 11-year-old Fernando, 7-year-old Karla, and 6-year-old Oscar Casanova were last seen Friday afternoon around 2:30 as they were leaving school. It is here, police say, at Yates Elementary School where their father abducted them. Police say 32-year-old Benito Casanova drives a 2002 silver or gray Dodge Dakota pickup with Illinois license plate 86196HB.
They`re not sure whether he was the husband or boyfriend of Sofia Garcia. Neighbors tell us he did live here with her and the children.
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GRACE: Sofia Garcia found dead in the family home.
Out to Eben Brown, investigative reporter with Metro Network.
Eben, what expected happened?
EBEN BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Good evening, Nancy. On Friday afternoon, it was the last time, I believe, people had seen Sofia Garcia. She was later found by family, dead, beaten in her head. Autopsy reports would later say that she was -- had severe head damage and her three children missing. Now she`s had a long history of violent interludes with her boyfriend, her husband. And now those children are believed to be with him en route to Mexico.
GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist joining us tonight from New York. Lauren, I know the cause of death according to the autopsy was damage to the brain, blunt force trauma to the head.
HOWARD: Right.
GRACE: But when she was found, she was hanged, and there was a plastic bag of some sort over her head. What -- that was not the cause of death. She was posed, Lauren.
HOWARD: Right.
GRACE: What does that mean?
HOWARD: Well, it`s an incredibly complex, violent act -- murderous act. Either the bag was clear, in which case there`s the sort of element of wanting her to see him or watch her die, or the bag was colored, in which case, he didn`t want to see the damage he had done, because blunt force trauma to her skull, she obviously was not -- was very deteriorated physically after that cause of death injury.
So if there -- I can`t tell you exactly what it is, but there is significance to it based on whether really it was a dark bag or a light bag.
GRACE: You know, to Mike Brooks, I`ve seen that in so many, many homicide cases, where the homicide victim will be covered in some way by the perpetrator. I remember in one case, the woman had -- was on the floor and the perp had actually put sofa cushions over her face and body, leaves blankets, plastic. It`s some instinct to cover the dead person, like you`re hiding them.
BROOKS: Exactly, or you don`t want to see the look on their face, you know, you don`t want to see that face of death, if you will, Nancy. But I hope, really hope the Mexican authorities along with the U.S. authorities have this information and are able to act on it right now.
GRACE: To Steve Patterson with the "Chicago Sun-Times," how is it -- did the biological dad or the boyfriend, whatever he is, did he actually pick them up from school, Steve?
STEVE PATTERSON, REPORTER, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: From what we know, he picked them up on Friday afternoon. He was approved prior to the school year beginning to pick them up and it was nothing out of the ordinary for him to do that. What we don`t know yet is whether the school had been properly notified of the order of protection that existed and would be in effect through 2009.
GRACE: So it sounds to me that, once again, something slipped through the cracks. Somebody wasn`t doing their job. This guy had a restraining order against him, Eben Brown. What`s he doing picking up the kids from the school?
BROWN: Well, that`s what investigators are trying to find out is why wasn`t the school notified that this guy was not allowed to come to that school to pick up those kids. He also wasn`t allowed to be anywhere near Sofia, as well, as she -- or her car or anywhere she may be working. So this -- something obviously fell through the cracks, although they`re not sure what. They`re just trying to find these kids.
GRACE: Well, that`s a nice way to put it. What really happened, I can`t say on air.
Steve Patterson, this woman is dead, the children are gone. Are we sure that school did not know about the restraining order?
PATTERSON: We just don`t know yet. And the unfortunate thing is, when you read her own -- in her own words, from the restraining order itself, she makes clear, "I am very, very scared. He is going to kill me if I don`t take him back, then kill himself." It was just chilling to read it.
GRACE: I just can`t believe what all this woman went through. She goes to all the right steps, get the restraining order, you name it, and then the school lets a guy come get the kids, they`re gone. They`re probably in Tijuana by now, they`re probably down there with Cesar Laurean.
I want to go back out to Mike Brooks. Mike, what`s the likelihood he`s going to be apprehended? And can you really put the border on alert? They don`t even check who`s leaving the country going into Mexico.
BROOKS: Well, we saw what happened with the Cesar Laurean case, Nancy. So -- you know hopefully, someone along the way -- because when you`ve got kids, 6, 7, 11, they`ve got to stop to go to the bathroom. It`s a long way from Chicago to the Mexican border. We don`t know exactly how much -- lead time he had, but apparently a substantial amount. Hopefully somebody will be able to see these kids by watching this show.
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GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE on the hunt for parents who inspire. Now tonight`s extraordinary parent.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When she was just 12 years old, Sean Marie Hardy says she was on her way home from school when a man cornered her and attempted abduction. She escaped, but the experience has continued to haunt her.
Now a grown woman with a daughter of her own, Sean is determined to protect other children. The artist is creating a scrapbook with work donated from artists around the globe to be auctioned off for charity. The Our Children: Honor With Art project could potentially raise thousands of dollars for organizations that fight to protect children.
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GRACE: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Major Andrew Olmsted, 37, Colorado Springs, Colorado, killed, Iraq. An Eagle Scout graduating Clark University, loves politics and writing a blog in Iraq for the "Rocky Mountain News" from the front lines. Leaves behind grieving parents Wesley and Nancy, brother Eric, sister Katherine, and widow Amanda.
Andrew Olmsted, American hero.
Thanks to our guest. But out biggest thank you to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. And tonight, happy birthday to TruTV superstar, Jean Casarez and to Mississippi attorney, Frank Hadden(ph). And to California friend of the show, Barbara. Happy birthday to all of you.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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