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Campbell Brown
Clinton Battles On; Interview With New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson
Aired April 23, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou.
Like that windup bunny, the Democrats keep going and going with no end in sight.
Sorry to disappoint, everyone. Hillary Clinton is moving on from her big win in Pennsylvania. But before we get into her latest strategy, let's see where all of the candidates are today. It's our "View From 30,000 Feet."
Hillary Clinton's first stop, Indiana, one of the two states holding primaries in two weeks on May 6. After a rally Indianapolis, she flew to Washington for some U.S. Senate votes. Bill Clinton has been dispatched to other May 6 state, North Carolina. He's got five stops in small and medium cities there.
Barack Obama campaigned in southern Indiana before heading back to Washington for those Senate votes. He spends the night in Chicago. John McCain's Time For Action tour brought him to Inez, Kentucky, where President Johnson once declared the war on poverty. McCain skipped the Senate votes.
And you may have considered this, but some people are suggesting he may be the biggest winner, as the campaign moves on now from Pennsylvania. We're going to look at why coming up.
But we do want to start with the inside story of Hillary Clinton's 55 percent to 45 percent win in Pennsylvania, especially what worked for her that we may see again and what Barack Obama needs to fix as his campaign moves forward.
Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley has been looking into all of this. She followed the candidates back to Washington tonight.
Candy, what do you have?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, we have to say that Hillary Clinton's best strategy going forward is that she won Pennsylvania. It gave her a bounce and, more importantly, some cold hard cash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): If it's Wednesday, this must be...
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just love Indiana.
CROWLEY: Trying to hold on to her mojo, Hillary Clinton moved into Indiana with her Pennsylvania template, a middle class persona.
CLINTON: I know that the American worker is the best worker in the world. We are the most productive workers. Nobody works harder. We have fewer vacation days. We have fewer sick leave days. We work. That's what we do. So, we're going to start having our government support you, instead of undercutting you.
CROWLEY: She's a "just like you" candidate who can jugular when the occasion, say a critical primary, calls for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CLINTON CAMPAIGN AD)
NARRATOR: Harry Truman said it best. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Who do you think has what it takes?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: Aired in final days of Pennsylvania, it was Clinton's message for voters and superdelegates, to wit, Obama isn't tough enough to be president or take on John McCain. Obama needs to both push back on the toughness issue and show off his middle-class creds, a twofer in today's Indiana's news conference.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have always believed that, if you're tough, you don't have to talk about it. And I have got a 20-year track of fighting on behalf of working families.
CROWLEY: In the end, Hillary Clinton's Pennsylvania victory did have a lot to do with political DNA. Pennsylvania teems with older voters, working-class voters, Catholic voters, all demographics that generally vote for her. But Barack Obama helped her along. She was only too happy to join in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CLINTON CAMPAIGN AD)
NARRATOR: Barack Obama said that people in small towns cling to guns or religion as a way to explain their frustrations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was very insulted by Barack Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: Add in one really bad debate, when he seemed put out with intense questions about his bitter comment, his controversial pastor, and his ties to a '60 radical, and what Obama got was a 10- point loss and a majority of late-deciders who went into the polling booth and voted for Hillary Clinton. He also got 24 hours worth of questions about the why the guy who has won more states, more pledged delegates, and leaders in the popular vote can't finish her off.
OBAMA: ... we're going to close this deal is by winning. And, right now, we're winning. And what we will do is keep on campaigning in Indiana and North Carolina and Oregon and these other states. And at the conclusion of all these contests, people will go back and take a look and say, who has won?
CROWLEY: But, if he is to win, he can no longer help her along.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And, Candy, back with us live.
Candy, look ahead now. What do they each have to do in Indiana and in North Carolina? What's got to be their focus going forward?
CROWLEY: Well, her focus going forward has to be exactly what it was.
She needs to maintain that kind of "I'm one of you. I understand your problems, and, by the way, I have been down and out like you. So, I understand," because voters are really responding to that whole underdog, "Rocky" theme. It's worked for her in New Hampshire. It worked for her in Ohio. It worked for her in Pennsylvania. So she wants to carry that over west into Indiana.
What Barack Obama has to do is exactly what you saw him to do there, which is to say, wait a second, I understand the middle class. I know what's going on here. He said, in that news conference, that he believes a lot of what hurt him in Pennsylvania was the older vote. And he said, look, I think people have to understand that I know about the prescription drug problems, that I have a plan for it.
So, he needs to really get down in that kind of wonky stuff that she does, which is, here's my plan. You know, the big rallies are great on TV. But he needs to get out of those rural areas and really work them.
BROWN: More policy, a little bit less rhetoric. All right, Candy Crowley for us tonight.
Candy, as always, thank you.
CROWLEY: Sure.
BROWN: Before Pennsylvania, you could sum up the conventional wisdom about Hillary Clinton this way, that her strength is among older voters, as Candy was just mentioned, and blue-collar voters.
But the latest exit poll shows that there's a lot more and it could have a huge impact as we head into Indiana and North Carolina.
Our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, has been poring over the numbers.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
BROWN: And Bill's joining us now.
After getting almost no sleep last night, we should mention as well.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Let's look at two groups that the exit polls tell us Clinton won yesterday, and, first, the surprise, wealthier voters, because they had been going with Obama up until Pennsylvania, right?
SCHNEIDER: That's right.
These are sometimes insultingly called Volvo voters and latte liberals. Barack Obama is the latest in a long line of candidates in the Democratic primaries that goes back to George McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, and Michael Dukakis, and Howard Dean, who appeal to upper- middle-class professionals.
Well, look at how they voted in Pennsylvania. They voted for Hillary Clinton, 54 percent to 46 percent. She has made big inroads among those voters. How did she do it?
Here's my hypothesis. A lot of women -- women, upper-middle- class, professional women admire Hillary Clinton and are loyal to someone of their gender.
BROWN: All right. Let's look at the other voting bloc that was very interesting. And Candy touched on this again in her piece, elderly vote goes for Clinton. And even Obama admitted today that he has got a problem there. How big of a problem for him, especially as we look forward to Indiana?
SCHNEIDER: That's right. He said he has a problem with older voters. Here's how he explained it today.
Obama said they are very loyal to Senator Clinton. They have a track record of voting not just for her, but also for her husband. Look at how they voted, 63 to 37 for Clinton over Obama. Now, actually, Obama did better among seniors in Pennsylvania, which is what you just saw, 37 percent, than he did in Ohio, where he only got 26 percent.
So, he's also cutting into that vote. What doomed him in Pennsylvania was just this. Pennsylvania has the oldest population of any state except Florida -- 22 percent of the voters in Pennsylvania were seniors. In Ohio, it was only 14 percent. So, the result is, even though he cut into their vote, and got a larger share of it, they were a huge constituency, and he was quite right to say, unless he gets more of that senior vote, he's going to have a big problem.
BROWN: All right, Bill Schneider for us on the numbers -- Bill, interesting stuff. Thank you.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
BROWN: Well, there is no doubt that Senator Clinton wants us to think her win in Pennsylvania is a turning point, the beginning of the end for Barack Obama.
Just listen to what she said at her victory rally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Today, here in Pennsylvania, you made your voices heard. And, because of you, the tide is turning.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: He broke every spending record in this state trying to knock us out of the race. Well, the people of Pennsylvania had other ideas today.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, is the tide really turning or it is all just spin?
We wondered how and if Senator Clinton could really win the nomination? And I want our political panel to tackle that tonight. With me tonight, CNN contributor Carl Bernstein. He's also the author of the book "A Woman in Charge: The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton."
We have also got Republican strategist Leslie Sanchez and CNN senior analyst Jeff Toobin with us as well.
Welcome to everybody.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: So, the message from the Obama campaign today, Jeff Toobin, is that this is, "a fundamentally unchanged race."
Bottom-line this. Is anything really substantially different today than it was yesterday?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Delegates decide the nomination. Hillary Clinton picked up at most a dozen delegates. She's going to behind by about 150 delegates heading into Indiana and North Carolina.
So, in terms of what really matters for the pledged delegates, it really is not that different. Although the atmosphere is different, the delegates haven't changed much at all.
BROWN: But you know what? He's been making that argument for a long time now. I think that Jeff is a bit of a math geek.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: What about the psychology, Carl? Do you agree with him, or do you think that she has momentum?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: There's a difference. She whooped him last night. And that counts for something and it has kept her in the race.
Now, I talked to one of her wisest counselors today, who I really trust. And he said, look, you can now see the contours of how we could win it, but Obama has to be destroyed by Hillary Clinton, probably through negative attacks, if it's going to happen. He has to collapse. The numbers don't work. They don't add up. As he said, it's still almost impossible. But they can see a light. They can see how to do it.
But it's ugly. And all kinds of things have to fall in place. She has got to win almost every contest. And the superdelegates, who count for the most, have to be convinced the Obama is unelectable. And that's a pretty difficult thing to do.
BROWN: OK. Hold that thought, Leslie. I'm going to get to you right after a quick break.
In a moment, given how Obama outspent Clinton in Pennsylvania, I want to zero in on why he lost by that 10-point margin. We will have that with Leslie when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The Democratic Party is going recognize as soon as we have a nominee that there's too much at stake for us to be divided. There's too much at stake in this election.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That's Barack Obama campaigning in Indiana today. He's calling for the party to unite. And Senator Clinton would agree. But, of course, she wants a united party to support her.
So, still with us here, CNN contributor Carl Bernstein, author of "A Woman in Charge," Republican strategist Leslie Sanchez, and CNN senior analyst Jeff Toobin.
And, Leslie, let me go with you. And let's talk about specifically why you think Obama lost and why a 10-point margin, because this is going to be important as we look at Indiana and North Carolina. We were talking earlier about working-class voters, older voters. Why is his message not resonating? Why is hers, especially on the issues? Is there something she's saying that he's not?
LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: There's two parts to that. I think, in one sense, you have to give Hillary Clinton credit in the fact that she does use her husband's name. A lot of people associate with her husband. There's a very strong favorable there. They look at Barack Obama like he's an elitist. He said these statements, like the bitterness comment, the bitter comment.
BROWN: Do you think that really hurt him?
SANCHEZ: It really does. If you look at -- I talked about this last night -- Yahoo! News in the last 24, 48 hours, people were searching to find out more about bitter and Reverend Wright, and some of those impacts. They don't know who Barack Obama is. So, it's a lot easier for the Clinton campaign to define him.
And in that sense, while they're doing those searches to find out who he is, they're looking at policy issues for Hillary Clinton. And about a quarter of the people that made up their minds, decided in the last 24 hours, or really the last three days, and those people went for Hillary Clinton overwhelmingly.
BROWN: Jeff?
TOOBIN: Everybody hates negative campaigning. Oh, it's so terrible. You know what? It works. And it worked in Pennsylvania, especially when she had the entire party establishment behind her, Governor Rendell, Mayor Nutter in Philadelphia. She had that infrastructure. And she went negative and it worked. And we will see if she's going to keep it up in Indiana and North Carolina.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: Candy said it, too, that she went for the jugular. And it is about going negative.
And going negative works in this new media atmosphere, particularly at the end of a campaign, coming right up against Election Day. You have a new transmission line, which is the Internet. It's not just us folks who are doing network television. It's not just the newspapers. People are looking at Yahoo!, and they're saying, oh, my God, look what he said.
And they're putting up all this stuff. And it's driving the debate of this campaign. And that's the most important fact that we haven't paid enough attention to as analysts.
SANCHEZ: A lot of people would say that. They look back at Jimmy Carter, and say he got a free pass from the media. People didn't really know who he was.
I think they look with a jaundice eye at Barack Obama, in the sense that I like his charisma, but who he is? And in most cases, you will have an election cycle to get to know who that candidate is. Four years from now, you will have a better sense of who he is. Right now, he's being defined. And you would think that the Republicans would be the ones to define the Democrat, but it's actually Hillary Clinton, who is doing a masterful job of using wedge issues to really frame who Barack Obama is. And nobody can counter that.
BERNSTEIN: Don't go too far in the following. Remember where he was a year ago and where he is now. He defined himself. Now she's trying to chip away at the way he defined himself. And she's having some success.
(CROSSTALK) TOOBIN: Before we predict total disaster for the Democrats, also, remember, also, this is an enormous turnout that went on in Pennsylvania and in an issue environment, where it sure likes the people who voted for Obama will vote for Clinton and the people who voted for Clinton will vote for Obama.
So, I think this is an ugly period, but Democrats I think should not be in total despair.
BROWN: There will be time to heal the wounds.
OK. We have got to take another break. We're going to come back to you guys a little bit later.
A program note now -- to many, it was all but unthinkable just a few months ago. A Republican winning the White House looked like an impossible dream. But with so many Americans clamoring for change, now, all the bickering between Democrats and apparently many more weeks to go in this bitter battle, John McCain could be positioned to turn things around.
So, tonight, lot of people saying he could win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have to say, as I have always said, continue my campaign, go across America, campaign everywhere, take nothing for granted, and give them my vision of the future of this country, and make it clear that I'm going to be the president of everybody, Republican or Democrat, or libertarian, or vegetarian.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: vegetarians, definitely.
Tomorrow in the Election Center, we're going to have an in-depth look at what McCain really needs to do to make that happen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So, there you have it. Hillary Clinton's Pennsylvania victory last night brought her a net gain of only 12 more delegates. She won 81. Obama won 69. Barack Obama still dominates in the overall delegate count.
But Senator Clinton claims that she has what it takes to win the Democratic nomination, the popular vote. The funny thing is, that's exactly what Senator Obama is saying.
So, we're going to try clear things up with tonight's insider guide to the delegate math and the popular vote. Who better than John King to handle this one for us?
So, how is this possible? They're both claiming to be ahead -- or to have the ability to win the popular vote.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The new math, Democratic Party style.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: OK.
KING: Look, Barack Obama wins the popular vote under three leading scenarios. Hillary Clinton does under one scenario. Let's walk through them and take a look.
BROWN: OK.
KING: This is just primary states.
If you just count the primaries, take the caucuses out, some people say, you know, primaries are when more people turn out. That's a better way to judge primary support, Democratic support. Well, here, Obama's leading 49 percent to 48 percent. Senator Clinton did close the gap some last night, about roughly 200,000 votes.
But, as you can see, Barack Obama still has a 300,000-plus lead in just the primary votes. That one scenario. Let's move down to scenario number two. This is the one the Obama campaign would prefer you look at, because, as you see, he has a slightly bigger lead, 49 percent to 47 percent. This is when you add in all the caucus states, as well as the primary states. And Barack Obama, as we know, in Iowa and out in those Mountain West states, has done better in caucus states.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: So, Barack Obama has a slightly larger lead here.
Now, scenario number three is moving toward what we will call the Clinton math.
BROWN: OK.
KING: She wants you to count -- and scenario three does count Florida. Now, remember, Barack Obama was on the ballot, but he didn't campaign there because Florida doesn't count. They broke the Democratic Party's rules. Hillary Clinton won the state.
When you add in those votes, primary, caucuses, including Florida, as you can see, she closes the gap. And she gets within 250,000, 260,000 votes.
Now, what Hillary Clinton says -- and she was out on the trail today saying, I won the popular vote. She adds Michigan, too. Barack Obama was not on the ballot. Those delegates don't count. So, you're breaking the rules, breaking the rules of math, as you go.
But under this scenario, that scenario, or that scenario, guess what, Barack Obama leads all three of these scenarios. Only with Michigan does she win. If you're a superdelegate looking at the popular vote, your inclination is go with Obama.
BROWN: OK, but that ultimately brings us to the all-important superdelegates, which we have been talking about nonstop. So they're making the arguments now that they need to make to get the superdelegates on board.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Right.
And the popular vote is only one of the things that the superdelegates will consider. Hillary Clinton wants them to consider what happened last night in Pennsylvania, not just because she beat Barack Obama by 10 points.
But what she wants you to do if you're a superdelegate is look at this map. Yes, he won among African-American in Philadelphia. She won just about everywhere else. Hillary Clinton wants you to look at this, remember what happened in Pennsylvania last night, pull out to the country, and go back in time.
Hillary Clinton would like you to think about 1992, when Bill Clinton won. He won Pennsylvania and Ohio. Hillary Clinton's argument to the superdelegates is, I can win Pennsylvania and Ohio. I don't think Barack Obama can.
What she would really like you to do, Campbell, is to go all the way back to 1988 and say, if Barack Obama wins the nomination, the Republicans will to do to him what they did to Michael Dukakis. They will say he's soft on crime, soft in experience on national security, left of center, and out of touch with you culturally. That is the argument Hillary Clinton's campaign is telling the superdelegates they will make.
Obama of course has a counterargument. But that is what the Clinton campaign is saying, hoping to sway the superdelegates.
BROWN: All right, John King, as always, with the magic map for us -- John, thanks very much.
We're going to talk about high stakes, Barack Obama now calling Indiana the tiebreaker. In a moment, I will ask Governor Bill Richardson, who recently endorsed Obama, how can Obama actually break the tie? That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, you can see the numbers there. Senator Barack Obama's got a lot more money than Senator Hillary Clinton. But that was true going into Ohio and Texas and now in Pennsylvania, and he still hasn't been able to put her away.
So, what is it going to take? That's a question for one of Senator Obama's supporters, New Mexico Governor and one-time presidential candidate Bill Richardson. He's joining us right now.
Governor Richardson, welcome to you.
Obama is winning the delegate race. And if you listen to the pundits and analysts, pretty much all of them will say that, chances are, he's going to be the party's nominee. But you can't ignore what happened last night. People clearly have doubts about him. Why can't he put this away?
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Well, look, Pennsylvania, Senator Clinton ran a terrific campaign. She had the institutional support, Governor Rendell.
No independents were allowed to vote there. This was a state tailor made for her. But look what's going to happen between now and then. We have got nine primaries. Senator Obama is going to be very strong in Indiana, in North Carolina, in Oregon. Senator Clinton's going to need 70 percent of all future delegates to win.
And Senator Obama, how is he going to win? By being positive, by not being negative, by talking about how we can come together.
Look, I have faced the toughest dictators in the world, foreign policy-wise. These arguments used by the other side that he's not experienced, that he's not ready, this guy has first-rate judgment. This guy has the temperament to be president. He's the kind of person that can not just bring our country together, but project a great image for America internationally.
BROWN: Right.
RICHARDSON: That's how he's going to win, Campbell.
BROWN: I understand your argument for how he's going to win. And even if you do have the math on your side, you still need definitive victories in these remaining primaries, though, don't you, to show people that there is real support behind him, and that is what he hasn't seemed to have been able to achieve.
RICHARDSON: Well, you know, Campbell, he's won a lot more states than Senator Clinton has. He's won a lot more delegates, a lot more popular vote.
This argument that Senator Clinton is only winning the big states, that that's going to make her stronger in the fall, I mean, if Democrats don't win California, New Jersey, her own state of New York -- Obama's winning states that are battleground states, like Colorado in the West, where I'm from, like Kansas, states that are very independent.
So, on the electoral map in the fall, Obama, I believe, is the strongest general election candidate.
BROWN: Senator Obama himself said today that you guys have a problem with older voters, if you look at the exit polls, same with working-class voters in Pennsylvania.
Why isn't his message resonating with them? RICHARDSON: Well, he's actually picked up voters over 60 since the Ohio primary significantly, also, middle-class voters.
Look...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But he lost older voters. He lost some substantially in Pennsylvania.
RICHARDSON: Well, no, but he did gain, Campbell, if you look at the polls from Ohio. He's picking up voters over 60, middle-class voters. He's very strong with the other base of the party.
But, you know, when you face these unrelenting attacks, when you face negativity, you know, that -- that erodes you. Negative campaigns, unfortunately, work. And Obama is a positive candidate. He's a candidate of the future.
BROWN: If I can ask you quickly, looking ahead to North Carolina and Indiana, he is heavily favored in North Carolina. Is Indiana now a must win for him?
RICHARDSON: Well, it's important. But look, he's got a strategy, continues to talk positive. But also continue to win not just states and votes and voters, but also he's doing well with superdelegates. There are a lot of superdelegates. Ready to move his way. They want a little more stronger indication.
But I talked to several superdelegates today. The trend is still in his favor despite Senator Clinton's very, very credible victory in Pennsylvania.
BROWN: All right, Governor Bill Richardson for us.
Governor, thank you.
We should mention, the governor will be back at to which the hour on "LARRY KING LIVE" to debate with Hillary Clinton's supporter James Carville.
What is Senator Clinton's new offense for the big battles in Indiana and North Carolina? Well, Terry McAuliffe, her campaign chairman, is standing by to help us sort that out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: So for anybody who says oh my goodness the voters are getting worn out. They are no longer interested. That sure is not my experience. I have never seen so much energy and intensity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A challenge from Hillary Clinton riding high on her victory in Pennsylvania. We just heard from Barack Obama's supporter, Governor Bill Richardson.
Let's get right to Clinton's campaign chairman, Terry McAuliffe. He is joining us now.
Welcome to you, Terry.
TERRY MCAULIFFE, CLINTON SUPPORTER: Campbell, great to be with you.
BROWN: Pennsylvania voters threw Clinton a lifeline yesterday. But ultimately she only caught Obama's lead by about a dozen delegates. She had to use her victory speech last night to plea for donations to keep going.
So this might have acted the psychology of the race. In terms of the numbers, things haven't really changed, have they?
MCAULIFFE: Well, we picked up about 214,000 votes in the popular vote. Hillary if you take all of the people who went in and voted through all of primary and caucuses, 122,000 more people pulled the lever for Hillary Clinton. So adding 214,000 folks last night was a big deal. I think it's important to show a trend. She's winning the states that we have to show to be competitive in the fall. Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida.
We have to be competitive in those four states to win the Electoral College. If you add up the electoral votes of the states Hillary Clinton has won, about 285 electoral votes. Senator Obama is around 190. You need 270 to win. It was a strong win. A 10-point win. Senator Obama outspent us three to one. Negative television. Vicious, negative mailings they did against Hillary.
And you know what, she came through it. She won in all parts of the state. Importantly she won in the suburbs of Philadelphia last night which was very important.
BROWN: But the negative ads. Let me just mention, "New York Times" editor --
MCAULIFFE: Yes, sure.
BROWN: -- "New York Times" editorial today, called the Pennsylvania campaign particularly mean and said that Senator Clinton was mostly impossible for the negativity, she took, "the low road to victory." And this is a paper that endorsed her.
So, wasn't -- you've got to concede that she was the one pretty aggressive in terms of the attacks especially in the last few weeks, don't you?
MCAULIFFE: Well, Campbell, I got to say, the 14 months of this campaign, they have unleashed character attacks, attacks on her policy, you know what happened on the flyer in Ohio on health care misstating her positions so this has been going on from day one. I don't think. I think they have been with Dick Cheney at the undisclosed bunker. I don't know who are the editorial writers are for "The New York Times." But if you spent one day in Pennsylvania, you saw the fliers, you saw the advertising attacking Hillary. It wasn't our campaign it was the Obama campaign.
BROWN: OK.
But, Terry, it was not just "The New York Times." Exit polls show at least 70 percent of Democrats felt like she attacked Barack Obama unfairly. And those are people who support her and felt like she was going on the attack. And frankly, lot of her supporter out there who think that she needs to in order to win this.
MCAULIFFE: Let's be clear. We won last night. She won a historic victory. The "Washington Post" front page today, reported that the Obama campaign said they're ratcheting up the negative attacks on Hillary. Listen, they have thrown the kitchen sink ...
BROWN: They denied that report, by the way.
MCAULIFFE: Fine. Front page story. You can deny the "New York Times," whatever. They threw the kitchen sink, they threw the garage sink. They three the bathroom sink at her. What it showed last night is people trust Hillary Clinton, they trust her on the economy, they trust her dealing with foreign affairs, outspent three to one. He came in, he was the big front-runner.
And you know what, Hillary Clinton won. It was a historic win. Add it to Ohio, add it to Texas, add it to New York, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, California. We're racking up very important states that we have to as Democrats, we need to win the general election. These superdelages want to know who's the best to go against John McCain?
If you can't win Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and Michigan, you will not be competitive against John McCain in the fall election. Hillary will, she won these states with a double-digit lead.
BROWN: All right, Terry McAuliffe for us.
Appreciate your time, Terry.
MCAULIFFE: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: So Clinton versus Obama, why are so many are saying that John McCain may be the big winner right now. We'll have that coming up in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: John McCain campaigning today in eastern Kentucky in a small town made famous when Democratic President Lyndon Johnson launched his war on poverty there more than 40 years ago.
Tonight the Democrats are the ones at war with each other. And some say that's breathing new life into John McCain's shot at the White House in November. With me again, CNN contributor Carl Bernstein, author of a book about Hillary Clinton. Republican strategist Leslie Sanchez and CNN senior analyst, Jeff Toobin.
Jeff, we've had the Democrats hacking away at each other essentially right now. Meanwhile, John McCain's going to be in New Orleans tomorrow on a compassion, they're having a compassion event there. He's getting a huge jump-start on them. How much is helping?
TOOBIN: Not all that much it seems to me actually. He's tied in the polls. After all of this, he's tied in the polls and he's raising half as much money each month.
BROWN: He's Republican running with an enormously unpopular Republican president coming off eight years, shouldn't he be even further behind?
TOOBIN: Well, with nobody campaigning against him, I don't think he should be that far behind. I think this is his best moment in the campaign. The time where he should be building up a lead. And he's not. That doesn't mean he's not going to win the election, but I think this opportunity that he has, is not amounting to much as far as I can tell.
SANCHEZ: I think the Democrats are squandering their natural opportunity. If you go back to last November, 40 percent of folks out there they would take any Democrat. They didn't care -- they just really wanted to move away from Republicans.
Independents were very much in that campaign. That's changed completely. They're all head to head. Whether it's Hillary or Barack. That's tremendously important. Not to mention, you have right now, what seven in 10 of the Bush loyalists are now onboard with John McCain's campaign.
He's coalescing and building coalitions with Hispanics, with independent voters, with conservative Democrats, with African Americans. He's going to the rural communities. He is doing everything he needs to do to build a broad-based coalition while basically Democrats are at war.
BROWN: Are they both beginning to look like damaged goods comparatively?
BERNSTEIN: The Democrats have plenty of time as long as they this is over by June 3. They regard John McCain as the best opponent they can possibly have. He said at out loud, I don't understand economics. He's for the war. He wants to keep it going. They're dying to run against him. It's one of the reasons Hillary Clinton wants to stay in this thing till the end, until the last dog goes home, because she knows that she can beat him and Obama knows that he can beat him. That's how each of them looks at this thing.
TOOBIN: I don't think he's the Republican they want to fight. They would have been much happier running against Mike Huckabee or Mitt Romney.
BERNSTEIN: McCain is really vulnerable.
BROWN: Can you make the counterintuitive argument, especially for Obama if he ends up being the nominee, it's good to get all of that stuff out there, to have these battles now, so it seems like it's old news?
TOOBIN: Certainly the YouTubes, it is better they came out in March than in October. The problem s they're still problematic and they may be brought back to life by his Republican opponents. I don't buy the argument that Hillary Clinton's making that all of this stuff was going to come out. Come on, if you have your own people attacking you, that's never good.
BROWN: OK. Guys, we have to end it there. We're out of time. We also have plenty more to come tonight. I should say thanks to everybody here.
But tomorrow, everything you need to know about a make or break primary that's less than two weeks ago. We'll be talking about that as well.
Be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: LARRY KING LIVE gets under way at top of the hour.
Larry, who is with you tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Campbell we have a good one. What a difference a day makes. Senator Hillary Clinton's campaign for president gets a boost from Pennsylvania. And we've got James Carville and Bill Richardson, each having something to say about that and maybe about each other.
Plus first lady Laura Bush and her daughter Jenna.
That's all ahead on "LARRY KING LIVE" in Washington at the top of the hour.
BROWN: All right, Larry. Carville and Richardson together. This is the first time they've been together since that whole dustup.
KING: Correct.
BROWN: OK. Good stuff. Larry King tonight.
KING: Thanks.
BROWN: And coming up, Erica Hill, she's got the headlines for us now -- Erica?
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell.
General David Petraeus is getting a promotion, nominated today to take over U.S. Central Command. The current U.S. commander in Iraq would then be America's top military man for all of the Middle East.
Lab workers have finished taken DNA samples from about 500 mothers and children in the Texas polygamy custody case. Meantime, a Colorado court document says a phone number used to report abuse at that polygamist compound was also used by Rosita Swinton, who is also described as a person of the interest in the Texas investigation.
And a question people have wanted answered for the last few days. Just where did these lights that you see come from? People in Phoenix saw the display in the sky Monday night. Alarmed citizens calling authorities. Many thought they had seen an UFO. Alas, no, a local man admitting today that he's responsible for the show.
Campbell, he used road flairs and huge helium balloons to create the spectacle.
BROWN: Too bad. All of those people had their hopes for. OK. Erica Hill for us tonight.
Erica, thanks.
Tonight on "A.C. 360," Randi Kaye has a closer look at how Pennsylvania helped Hillary Clinton hit the $10 million jackpot.
Here is a quick preview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Barack Obama has outraised Hillary Clinton by tens of millions but fresh off her victory in Pennsylvania, she's playing catch up.
MCAULIFFE: We have raised $10 million through the Internet. We've had the biggest day that we have ever had in the history of our campaign. Sixty thousand brand new donors.
KAYE: Ten million dollars in less than 24 hours. Big money for a candidate who two months ago couldn't afford to pay staffers and loaned her campaign $5 million out of her own pocket.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "360"'s Randi Kaye has more on Hillary Clinton's Pennsylvania jackpot and what it means for the rest of the campaign, tune into "A.C. 360" tonight at 10:00.
It's a safe bet that back at the first of the year, nobody thought Indiana's May primary would be all that important. Well, surprise, it is "hugely important." So it's time for a crash course in Indiana politics and what everyone including the candidates needs to watch out for.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we just saw, white women accounted for nearly half of the voters in Pennsylvania's primary. They went big time for Hillary Clinton. So will that be the case in Indiana?
We asked Tom Foreman to come up with a list of all the things that we have to be looking for.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, about six million live in Indiana. Half as many as Pennsylvania. Each candidate has some likely natural power supplies here. Let's start with Clinton and race. Indiana is 89 percent white. That's above the national average. That's above Pennsylvania. Where exit polls show that race was a factor that hurt Obama. So that's likely a plus for Clinton. Percentage of female voters is a little below of Pennsylvania. Probably won't pick up extra ground there. Lot of the Democrats here consider themselves basically conservative. That could disincline them to Obama's message of change.
So what helps Obama? Well, there are fewer older people here per capita than Pennsylvania. Since senior citizens tend to like Clinton having less of them could help him. And there are plenty of young voters to pursue. Indiana has dozens of well-regarded colleges and universities, Notre Dame, Purdue, among others. And the college kids tend to love Obama. Rolling out really impressive numbers of new voters.
There's catch -- when young people graduate in Indiana, they often more away. Overall the state's population is less educated than average and less educated people tend to vote more often for Clinton.
There are many blue collar workers here and she's done well with them but Indiana has not hit quite as hard economically as other states. So, Campbell, that could be a wash, depending on whose message reaches them.
BROWN: Tom Foreman.
And you can be sure the Obama and Clinton war rooms are busy places tonight. She has got the momentum. He wants it back. Let's go to our own war room to ask our experts about the key races in Indiana and North Carolina.
CNN contributor Roland Martin is here along with Hank Sheinkopf, a longtime Democratic strategist. And in Washington, Kevin Madden, who was press secretary for Mitt Romney's Republican presidential campaign.
Welcome to everybody.
Hank, you get to go first. Certainly Hillary Clinton has got the momentum coming out of last night. What does she need to go to keep it going?
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: She has to keep doing exactly what she was doing. Which is draw the distinctions between herself and Barack Obama -- number one.
And number two, target Catholic voters. The word here is Catholic and blue collar. That's where she's got to be. BROWN: Why?
SHEINKOPF: Why?: If you can prove that you can take them this the Midwest, it means you can take them in the fall. If there's any hope of getting the nominee, you've got to prove you can win. Nobody wins without Michigan, Missouri, Ohio and western Pennsylvania. Catholics, Catholics, Catholics.
BROWN: OK. Roland, Obama says hold up. Big picture. He's the one who is ahead right now.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The way they're going to close the deal is by winning. And, right now, we're winning. And what we'll do is keep on campaigning in Indiana, North Carolina, Oregon. And these other states. And at the conclusion of all of these contests people will go back and take a look and say, who's won? I think it's apparent that we'll be in the strongest position to win in November.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: But the fact is he did lose another crucially important general election state. Let's say you're working for him what do you say to convince those superdelegates that this is all going to be OK?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The exact same story. George W. Bush won Iowa by 10,000 vote. He won Iowa, he won Missouri. Bush won New Mexico with a sliver of the vote against John Kerry. He also barely lost to Hillary Clinton in New Mexico. She's saying, we need these critical states. But he is saying, I can expand the party and put eight to 10 other states in play.
But you keep reminding people, I'm the won who is winning. Pledged delegates, popular votes and states, that's a heck of a narrative that she can't overcome.
BROWN: All right. Let me go to Kevin.
Kevin, let's talk about the over 65s. These are the most reliable voters out there. And they're not with Obama. What should he be doing that he's not doing? What would be your sort of senior strategy?
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I think these seniors are giving pause when they're looking at supporting Obama. He's just not offering the specifics that they want on the real important issues. Whether it's economic issues, or whether it's like solving the energy crisis and health care.
He's going out there, he's painting in broad strokes, and he's offering a lot of lofty rhetoric. He's not offering the specifics. And I think that was one of the reasons why Hillary Clinton did so well with those voters in Pennsylvania. BROWN: All right. Wait, wait, wait. Roland. Hang on. Hold that thought. More of the risks both candidates face as they go more negative. More strategy when we come back right after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Words will become solutions. Hope will become reality. So my answer to any who doubt is -- yes, we will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senator Hillary Clinton has the wind at the back after winning the bruising Pennsylvania primary. So now, who has to start hitting hard and how should the opponent hit back? We're in the war room with Republican Kevin Madden, Democrat Hank Sheinkopf and CNN contributor Roland Martin.
Kevin, Pennsylvania was a big psychological boost for Senator Clinton. But she's still trailing in the delegate vote. Now more than ever she has to convince superdelegates that Obama is in freefall here. How does she do it without looking like the queen of mean, because she's already taken a lot of knocks for that.
MADDEN: Everybody says that this is like a negative campaign. I have worked on City Council races in Yonkers, New York, that are tougher than that. She has gone out there and she has fought very hard on hammering away at Barack Obama's attributes.
The fact that he doesn't have the experience and the fact that he doesn't offer the specifics on plans and policies that the Americans care about. If she continues to do that, she can stop a lot of the superdelegates in their track and she can continue to make headway in places like North Carolina and Indiana.
BROWN: Roland, we've got to be quick here, guys, but does Obama take a risk going negative now after setting himself as the politician ...
MARTIN: Huge risk. I asked him today and he said, frankly, I lose if I go negative. What needs to happen is Professor Obama needs to come out on the campaign trail where he is the wonk as opposed to the one simply presenting rhetoric.
SHEINKOPF: I don't know.
BROWN: Do you agree with that, Hank?
SHEINKOPF: He has no option to what he does. She has no option but to continue to do what she does which is draw the difference. The distinction is she knows what it feels like to lose your house. He's a professor that's removed, that's the argument.
BROWN: Kevin, 20 seconds.
MADDEN: Professors don't win presidential elections. Professors are in good in classrooms.
MARTIN: When I say professor, I mean policy. The L.A. debate, he was Professor Obama. He was on a equal par with her and got rave reviews. That's what I mean by that. Policy, policy, policy.
MADDEN: It's a risk.
MARTIN: Well, what do you want? Policy and speeches?
BROWN: Got to go. All right.
Kevin Madden for us from Washington.
Roland Martin and Hank Sheinkopf. Appreciate it, you guys.
Good to have you with us in the war room tonight. And that's it for us. Everybody LARRY KING LIVE getting star started --
I'm little early. I thought I was running out of time.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.
Go ahead, Roland.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now. Have a good one.
