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Campbell Brown
Interview With Michelle Obama; Politics of Gas; Superdelegate Powers: Which Way are They Leaning Now?
Aired April 30, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks to you, Lou.
Tonight, everybody, we have got more fallout on the Reverend Jeremiah Wright story.
Senator Barack Obama is reiterating his decision to condemn Wright and to sever all ties with him. And now Michelle Obama has joined her husband to help with damage control and to try to get the campaign off of Wright and back on message.
Michelle Obama is speaking live right now to supporters in Boonville, Indiana. You can see the picture there. And when she's done on this stage, she's going to join us on CNN.
Our crew right now is setting up. Michelle Obama will speaking to our own Suzanne Malveaux. And when we're done, we're going to bring you that interview.
But before Suzanne briefs us on what she intends to ask tonight, we do want to get the view, as we always do, from 30,000 feet to see where all the candidates are today.
The Obamas were together for a couple of stops in Indianapolis. And then, later, the senator split off for a rally at Indiana University. Senator Hillary Clinton is also in Indiana, making four stops there today. The critical Indiana primary is just six days from now.
Bill Clinton is in the other state that holds a primary next week. He's making seven stops in small towns in North Carolina. Chelsea Clinton is campaigning for her mother in Puerto Rico, looking ahead to its Democratic primary on June 1.
As for John McCain, with an eye on the general election, he spent most of the day talking health care in Pennsylvania. And he's now in Ohio. That's another must-win state for him in November.
The Obamas are hardly hiding from their wrenching decision to disavow their longtime and now controversial pastor. At a town meeting today, someone did ask the senator to talk about how much of a toll it's taken to turn his back on Wright.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I made a statement yesterday that was hard to make, but it was what I believed.
And, you know, what we want to do now, though, is to make sure that doesn't continue to be a perpetual distraction. I don't want to continue to play the same politics that we have been doing for the last eight years, where you just have this back and forth, tit for tat, trying to dig up dirt on other people, trying to call each other names, and not get anything done.
So, Michelle, do you have anything to add to that? You do, but...
(LAUGHTER)
B. OBAMA: Remember, there are a lot of reporters around, though.
(LAUGHTER)
B. OBAMA: So...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A new MSNBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll shows how much damage the Obama campaign has to deal with now. Thirty-four percent say they're bothered by Obama's remarks about some Pennsylvania voters being bitter. And 32 percent have major problems with his association with Reverend Wright.
Our Suzanne Malveaux has a moment now to join us as she prepares to talk with Michelle Obama and Caroline Kennedy.
Suzanne, certainly, Michelle Obama has been forceful advocate for her husband. And she's going to be taking on the Jeremiah Wright issue.
Suzanne, you there?
We're having -- we're having a few -- we're having a few problems with Suzanne's audio.
So, we're going to talk in the meantime to Leslie Sanchez, who is with me now. She's going to be part of our panel tonight.
And, Leslie, I just want to get your take. Today, 24 hours later, they're trying very hard to get back on message, to put this behind them.
We have got Michelle Obama out on the stump helping him to do that. Have they have been able to do that?
LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think it's a very difficult thing for them to do, not only is it because of the news cycle. I think he's satisfied many of the talking heads that wanted to see him distance himself from Reverend Wright and those comments.
But it takes time for voters to -- for it to percolate amongst voters. They have to think about. Was that a satisfactory distancing himself? Is it going to be politically strong enough to show that he's independent of Reverend Wright? And I think there's still a lot of questions about that. And the little digs that Hillary Clinton continues to make just fosters this anxiety in the media.
BROWN: Well, I was going to ask you about that. One of the digs she did make was today. It was very subtle, but she said in response to this that she was glad that Obama had made his views cleared finally, making sure to get that finally in.
SANCHEZ: Right. Right.
BROWN: It took all of 24 hours to make his views clear, but still.
Is that, as subtle as it was, pretty much all we're going to hear from her on this, do you think?
SANCHEZ: Not at all.
I think that this -- for better or for worse, this is going to be an issue that runs through November. And a lot of people are very frustrated by that, but if Barack is the nominee, there is no doubt about that.
And a lot of this, I would say, for the Hillary Clinton campaign has been the gift that keeps on giving. Reverend Wright continues to make those statements. When he went to the Press Club, it really became politically explosively, and Barack had to do something about it.
But diverting attention with his wife giving the speeches, the problem is, a lot of people are starting to think that Barack Obama isn't ready for prime time, that there's these other things and issues he should have handled before he decided to run for president and this exacerbates that.
BROWN: Let me bring in the other members of our panel now.
We have got Roland Martin with us, along with our senior political analyst Gloria Borger as well.
And let me bring you guys into this.
We're having a discussion about generally where things are right now in terms of -- I know it's not been a long time since he made his comments, but we have seen Barack Obama out on the campaign trail today, along with his wife, saying, we're moving forward, pretty much said everything we're going to say about this.
Roland, has he gotten beyond it?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's a start. I have a piece on CNN.com speaking directly to that, that he has to say, look, forget that. It's time for me to focus on the issues.
And if people are going to continue to ask questions, meaning those in the media, he has to say asked, answered. I talked about it. Now I'm focusing on the issues that matter most to the people.
That's the political response from his vantage point. Certainly, from McCain and from Clinton, you still want this to come up, because you want people to still be talking about it, wanting it in the back of their minds. He has to make a hard press, as best as possible between now and Tuesday to focus on issues and not Reverend Wright.
BROWN: Gloria.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I agree with that, because this thing had been festering since last Friday.
So, that's been a bunch of days where Barack Obama hasn't been talking about the things that Hillary Clinton is talking about, most notably the economy, which is what the voters in Indiana care about and the ones in North Carolina, too. And he's got to get back to his message. He tried to do that today.
But Reverend Wright is an unknown. Nobody controls him. Nobody knows when he's going to inject himself back into this conversation again. His friends in Chicago and fellow ministers have been trying to tell him, just go away. But nobody knows whether that's in fact going to be the case.
All right, guys, hang on for a second.
As we mentioned earlier, Suzanne Malveaux is about to sit down with Michelle Obama. And we understand that Michelle Obama has wrapped up that event she was just at. And she's going to now to join Suzanne for this interview.
But we want to check in with Suzanne now to talk a little bit about what she's going to discuss with her tonight.
And, Suzanne, we were mentioning that she has been this very strong advocate for her husband. And part of the reason...
(CROSSTALK)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm sorry, Campbell. I have just lost your audio. But I will give you a sense of what we're going to sit down and talk about.
Obviously, it's going to be Michelle Obama, as well as Caroline Kennedy. They're really making these rounds to these kind of small rural towns places in Indiana. We're in one of those places.
And the idea behind this is really -- is, first of all, to emphasize that they want to try to redefine Barack Obama. These are places where they don't know him very well. They're paying very close attention. And there has been some damage that has been done to his reputation, to his campaign and to his image because of Reverend Wright.
So, that -- there was a clear feeling in the campaign that they needed to do something where they made it very clear to voters here that this is not the Barack Obama that they are putting out there. This is not the true person that they are seeing. And so that is what your seeing here.
Michelle Obama, obviously, will be addressing some of those questions, some of those concerns. We will put it to her. How damaging has this been and is Reverend Wright really someone who you can control? It was a very good point that you brought up essentially is, will this fight continue? They certainly hope to move forward here. They have renounced him. They have denounced him. They have been hurt by him.
But they feel like, if they address it head on here, that perhaps it will give him a chance to talk to these rural voters, to talk to these white blue-collar voters and women voters, those groups that they desperately need to hang on to going into the races ahead -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Suzanne Malveaux for us.
And Suzanne can't hear me, but we're going to get her audio fixed when she joins us a little bit later with her interview with Michelle Obama.
And we have got a lot more to talk about, including the high price of gas. Who's not mad about that? Well, our own Ali Velshi is, because he knows the facts. And, well, you might say, he's up in arms, way up in arms over all of it. We will explain when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So, that's what drivers are paying for gas in other countries.
Senior business correspondent, Ali Velshi, is here to talk about how high gas prices might climb here at home -- Ali.
ALI VELSHI, CNN SENIOR BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I can tell you, though, $3.62 a gallon for unleaded gas, that's the national average.
AAA says, by Memorial Day, less than a month away, we're going to be above $3.90 a gallon.
But tell you how we got here, let's look at where we have been. Let's look at 2000. We were paying just $1.42 a gallon for gas. Seemed to be reasonable. No one has ever thought that gas was a deal. By 2003, the increase wasn't much. It was just $1.54 on average this time of year. In 2003, we crossed $2 a gallon.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: It was a huge deal at the time.
VELSHI: It was a huge deal. And people wondered what would happen. But not much happened. We didn't pull back that much. By 2005, just $2.22. By 2006, now you're up against that $3 a gallon barrier. And people were wondering whether we would change our behavior. And it didn't take long. By 2007, this time of year, $3.13 a gallon, and we did change.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: People were changing their behavior. They were not buying those big SUVs anymore, or not as much.
VELSHI: Absolutely. So, we saw a big drop-off in those kind of sales. There was a real trend toward hybrids.
Now, look, over $3.60 a gallon. Now, how high can it go, you asked me? Let me beg your indulgence on this for just a second, because I have got to actually show you proportionately -- $3.60. We have been going up for a month at more than a cent a day.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Be careful there.
VELSHI: I shall. It doesn't sound like that much, just a penny a day. But if you went up that long for 365 days, take a look at where you would be in a year. We will be over $7 a gallon in just a year from now. I don't actually think it's going the happen. But some people have predicted that that is where we could be.
BROWN: Now, why don't you think it's going to happen?
VELSHI: Well, because I think we saw people pulling back at $3.00 a gallon. We saw them pulling back at $3.50. They are going to continue to pull back. They will carpool. They will trade their vehicle in. They might even move closer to work. But they're not going to continue to drive and fill up the same way.
Campbell, we have seen a pullback in gasoline usage and oil usage in the last year because of the way it's gone. I don't think we're going to get there, but this pace is a little worrisome.
BROWN: All right, Ali Velshi, you stay up here, OK? And we should say, we owe a nod here to Al Gore, I think, for stealing his idea. But it's pretty good.
Ali Velshi will be back with us later.
Gas prices have turned into a huge issue on the campaign trail.
And Tom Foreman has a look at how the presidential candidates want to save you money at the pump. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A summer vacation from the federal gas tax sounds good to John McCain, who says cutting 18 cents of off each gallon could help millions of average Americans. SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A little bit of relief, so they can travel a little further and a little longer.
FOREMAN: Hillary Clinton likes the idea, too, and says a big tax on oil company profits could make up the $10 billion or so lost in that consumer tax cut.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm the only candidate who will provide immediate relief at the pump with a plan to make it happen.
FOREMAN: And Barack Obama likes the idea of taxing big oil. But he says the gas tax holiday is nothing but fumes.
OBAMA: And we are arguing over a gimmick to save you half-a-tank of gas over the course of the entire summer, so that everyone in Washington can pat themselves on the back and say that they did something.
FOREMAN: So, what's wrong with any or all of these ideas for making your gas cheaper?
LEN BURMAN, TAX POLICY CENTER: The problem is, this proposal just won't work.
FOREMAN: Economist Len Burman of the Tax Policy Center says, first, as soon as tax cut took effect, people would drive more, increasing demand.
BURMAN: Basic economics tells you that, if supply is pretty much fixed, that the only thing that can happen is for the price to go back up.
FOREMAN: Second, while hitting the oil companies may please consumers, the American Petroleum Institute and some tax analysts say it could discourage investment in exploration and refineries, making our energy issues worse.
(on-camera): And there's this. Some states have found, when they cut gas taxes, people all along the supply line, from the oil walls to the pumps, decide to raise their prices, a penny or two here and there.
(voice-over): Meaning that 18-cent-a-gallon savings could be much smaller by the time it reaches your tanks.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Our Tom Foreman.
So, we know what the candidates want and we know that it may not do any good. But drivers are sick of paying so much money every time they fill up. They're looking for answers, and so are we. We will talk to Senator John McCain about the scary rise in the price of gas. That's when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Now, I know everything I want to do about energy and gas prices is not going the happen until the two oil men leave the White House. But, as soon as they do, let's be ready to take some action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're talking gas prices tonight in the ELECTION CENTER. And that was Hillary Clinton in Indiana today. She wants to suspend the federal gas tax this summer as a way to ease gas prices, an idea that Barack Obama discounted at a campaign stop this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It sounds good. Maybe it polls well. But here's the truth. It would save the average family 30 bucks over the course of three months, $28, or, more precisely, 30 cents a day, which is less than you can -- than you can buy a cup of coffee for at the 7/Eleven, 30 cents a day. That's their big solution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: John McCain is also calling for a federal gas tax moratorium.
And, earlier, I asked him for a response to those who say his plan doesn't offer a real solution.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: You have called for suspending the gas tax for a few months this summer. Congressional analysts have pointed out two things about your proposal, it will only save people about 30 bucks and that, ultimately, it's not a long-term solution. Your opponents basically call it an election-year gimmick. How do you respond?
MCCAIN: Well, 30 bucks may not be much to the -- quote -- "analysts" -- 30 bucks is a lot to a lot of people that have come up to me and said, I would like a little relief this summer, Senator, from the gas tax I'm paying.
And they're also a little upset and angry that so many of these pork barrel projects are funded out of their hard-earned dollars that go in the form of a gas tax. Senator Clinton, I understand, has asked for $2.3 billion in pork barrel projects. Senator Obama has gotten hundreds of millions of dollars in pork barrel projects.
Maybe you ought to cancel those and pay for this gas tax relief that Americans want and need today. It's not the end of Western civilization. It's a little break for the American citizen, who's really hurting in a number of ways today. And it might improve their morale a little bit. And I think most Americans would agree with me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, do any of the candidates have a plan that will really work and actually lower tax prices?
Well, let's go back now to senior business correspondent Ali Velshi, who came down from the cherry-picker to join us, standing in person.
OK, so what about it? We heard from all three of them here. Who's for real? Are any of these plans really going to work?
VELSHI: None of the them are going to work.
Oil prices and gas prices are high for three reasons. There's speculation in trading. And that accounts for $50 to $70 a barrel. There's high demand and low supply. And there's a refining problem. These are not solutions that are going to work.
Barack Obama's absolutely right when he criticizes the other candidates for saying it's not going to work, but Barack Obama hasn't got a solution that's going to work either. A gas tax moratorium doesn't make any sense at all.
BROWN: But can a president generally, whoever gets the job, do anything that can really affect gas prices?
VELSHI: I think they can influence a decision on two fronts.
One is we have got to figure out ways of conserving. And that could be a number of things that encourage people or give them an incentive to be more fuel-efficient. That could be taxes. That could be tax breaks for more effective cars. We have tried that and it has worked.
The other side is, we're not refining all the gas we can refine. Our refineries are running between 80 and 86 percent capacity, which means there's a lot more gas to refine. They say at this time of year they're changing from winter gas to summer gas. I got to figure they have got a better way to do this than for being out of commission for a while.
I think a president could come in and say if you want the privilege of refining oil in this country, you have to be running at 98 percent capacity all the time. And, if you're not, you have 24 hours to report the government why you're not, and we will send inspectors in.
Let's look at the refining of oil -- of gasoline and find out where that problem is. This kind of talk, it just confuses people. And it's not healthy. That 30 bucks is not going to solve the problem.
BROWN: But it's an election year, Ali.
VELSHI: Absolutely. And we will keep on reminding you when it's not working.
BROWN: I know. I know that's what it is about.
VELSHI: Exactly.
BROWN: Ali Velshi, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
And, as we told you earlier, we're about to hear from Michelle Obama and Caroline Kennedy, who is one of Senator Obama's biggest supporters. They're just sitting down now with our Suzanne Malveaux in Boonville, Indiana. And we will let you hear some of that interview as soon as it's done.
In just a minute, the politics of the pump and the pain of gas prices, it affects every one of us in America. Voters are worried. And, as you heard, so are the candidates. So, are we going to get any relief? Or should we just get used to the future of escalating prices? We're going to get some answers when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The price of gas is not just a campaign issue. Stories about people having to dig deeper into their wallets just so they can get around are also reaching the White House.
And, at his news conference yesterday, President Bush said he would be open to any ideas to roll back rising fuel prices.
And we have heard from the presidential candidates. So, now we want to go back to our political panel and get some answers more generally.
With us again, we have got CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger, also CNN contributor Roland Martin, and Republican strategist Leslie Sanchez here with me in New York.
And, Gloria, we just got the breakdown from Tom Foreman. Hillary Clinton and John McCain want to suspend this federal tax cut for the summer. Obama's against it. We heard Ali Velshi say that basically their plans are election-year gimmicks. But who more importantly is winning the political battle here? Who do the voters trust more on the issue?
BORGER: Well, it's very hard to tell, because, first of all, they don't trust Washington on the issue.
And I was amused to hear President Bush the other day say, if I could wave a magic wand and make gas prices go down, I would.
And he can't. But what politicians have to do who are running for election -- and Bush's not running for reelection -- is tell the voters that they can solve the problem. And the question is whether the voters will take a short-term solution that may give them a few more bucks in their pocket over the summer over really trying to sit down and think about the longer-term solution, which is what Barack Obama is saying. The one thing a politician can't do is seem to be out of touch with the pain Americans are feeling.
BROWN: But, to that point, Roland, Obama's explanation for why he's against the gas tax is somewhat complicated, or, if not complicated, it requires explanation. And he only has six days before pretty important primaries. Is he risking right now, once again, being pegged as someone who can't feel the pain of average Americans?
MARTIN: Sure. He risks that.
But he also -- the reward is here's somebody who is not sitting here giving us a line of B.S., who is telling us the truth. Remember what John McCain did in Michigan. He got hurt big-time when he went to Michigan and said, hey, your jobs are not coming back. Mitt Romney said, I'm going to fight to get your jobs back. McCain lost. Romney won.
But the other piece that I think the Democrats are missing, they are spending time -- Obama is going after Clinton. Clinton is going after Obama. What they should be saying is, hey, President Bush, your people told us that gas prices were going to go down because of this war in Iraq. And it didn't happen.
They have got to be able to say, barrel of oil was 20 bucks a barrel. Now it's $120 a barrel. This is all because of you, Mr. President.
They have got to go after John McCain on this one as well. They don't have time to be fighting one another. They have got to say that.
The last point, Campbell, the federal dollars for gas also goes to the highway fund. They have got to say -- he has got to say, in Indiana, your state will lose money for your highways because of this proposal as well. Now, tell me where that money is going to come from.
So, they have got to do a little bit better job than just say, hey, here's 30 bucks.
BROWN: Leslie, you're shaking your head.
SANCHEZ: I'm shaking my head. You can't -- it's a global energy market.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Oh, nice try, Leslie.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: ... you're not going to be able to make a direct correlation that it was the war in Iraq. I think the Democrats would like to tie everything to the war in Iraq and want to run on that entirely. (CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But, Leslie, you have to concede the war in Iraq has had something to do with the rising gas prices, right?
SANCHEZ: Well, there's no doubt about that, but you can't look at this in a vacuum. You have to look at all the different factors.
And I think the bottom line, I think Gloria had it right. If you're talking about pocketbook issues and how people are really looking at the government, who do they trust to make the right decisions and really lead the country the right way?
If you look at the fact that Hillary has the lowest approval rating in terms of honesty, somebody that is trustworthy, of any candidate historically, that's a tremendous impact on whether or not they support her.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And Barack Obama, it is yet to be seen if it's going to be a political liability for him not to support this idea.
BORGER: Campbell -- Campbell, you were talking about this earlier, though. You know, we've sort of moved into this phase of the campaign, where we've really gotten into the politics of pander. You know, there's a Democrat I was talking to today, and he said, you know, this is really kind of lowest common denominator democracy. Tell the people what they want to hear...
MARTIN: And they'll believe you.
BORGER: ... because you want to get elected and they'll believe you. And this may be the moment when we look back at this campaign, when an extraordinary campaign that was about a serious discussion of the issues, suddenly turned into something very ordinary about politics as usual.
MARTIN: But this play is again into -- again, it's a risky strategy, Campbell, to say we got to think long-term. But you know what, somebody has to do it. And in the voters we're talking about, we want grown-ups running this and that's what you must have.
But I'm sorry, I'm going to buy that Leslie. The Democrats can go after Republicans, and I say go pull those sound bites of Paul Wolfowitz who said oh, no, gas prices are going to go down. We got it under control.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So are you talking about windfall taxes? I mean -- you know that things like that don't work.
MARTIN: No, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is you can tie it to the president's policies because even his own people said it, the prices are going to go down. It came out of their mouths. BROWN: All right.
MARTIN: I'd say get Governor (ph) Bush on it.
BROWN: OK. See, I tell you guys, we're all going to end on this nice note where everyone agrees.
MARTIN: Oh, that's boring.
BROWN: Our thanks to Gloria, Roland and Leslie, appreciate it, guys. Thanks for being with us.
We are starting something new tonight in the ELECTION CENTER. Call it anatomy of a photo-op or call it behind the scenes stagecraft for Hillary Clinton's big visit to -- well, the gas station today. We're going to explain when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The candidates do all sorts of things to connect with regular voters. Barack Obama went to a bowling alley before the Pennsylvania primary. You remember that. John McCain is visiting hospitals and medical laboratories this week to pitch his health care proposals, and Hillary Clinton is making gas prices a priority. So today in Indiana, she visited a gas station.
But what you don't see is the actual stagecraft that goes into these events. And here on ELECTION CENTER, we're going to start taking you behind the scenes of these highly choreographed events.
Erica Hill is here to give us a closer look at the stagecraft behind Hillary Clinton's trip to the gas station today.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's because there are one or two things that have to happen for this photo-op and this trip to the gas station, as we know. First of all, if you're campaigning, it's good to start off with an average Joe. Or in this case, we have an average Jason.
This gentleman right here was actually picked by the Clinton campaign. He says he got a call about 3:30 on Monday. Yesterday he got the briefing from the Secret Service. Now, we should tell you, too, he's a union member. His union supports Senator Clinton...
BROWN: Right.
HILL: ... which clearly the way that they found him. He said what he really found interesting about the Secret Service briefing is he was told, as you can see here, Senator Clinton is in the passenger seat.
BROWN: Right.
HILL: Well, they told him, since her husband took office, she's been driven around by the Secret Service and she always has to be in the back. So she said this is really a treat for her to ride shotgun. And they also insisted, by the way, this isn't his car. He has a two- door.
They said, no, no, it's not going to work. Secret Service needs to have a four-door, and we need to have an agent in the back. So they borrowed the boss's F250, which I'm sure he's happy. It's not his to fill up all day because that's going to be a little bit more expensive.
BROWN: No choreography here at all, right?
HILL: Not choreographed at all. So here's Senator Clinton. She did not pump the gas, but she did end up paying for the gas. So here they are at the gas station. And, of course, when you're at the gas station, you got to talk a little bit about gas. I think we have some sound from Senator Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I think it's past -- way past time to go after the oil companies. That's my theory. They have -- they have made such outrageous profits in the last couple of years. So we're going to try to push that and --
Hi, everybody.
HILL: Oh, hi. Oh, hi.
When did the photographers get here? I always stop for gas with Jason Wilson (ph) in the morning when he borrows his boss's car. I apparently with $64 bucks, by the way, to only fill up half the tank. So again, I'm letting the gas price issue here.
The other thing that's wow, is if you look at all of the cameras -- you know, when they left the hotel, it was Jason and the senator. It ended up being a 10-car motorcade to get here. You've got all these photographers here. And then some of these shots, too, we should tell you, we see the shots. You don't always see the people taking the shots. It's not easy to get --
Look, here is the photographer. This is our photographer right here, Tony (ph) from CNN, in the back of this truck.
BROWN: Looking good, Tony.
HILL: Tony always looking good, a fine gentleman, I might add.
These two strings, you can see this black string here. This one here, this is all that's holding these people into the car. And as you were watching, we could see them on the way to the gas station. They were actually going at a pretty high rate of speed.
So there they are. Doors open. A couple of elastic bands keeping them in, also, that we could have this beautiful shot, Campbell, of Senator Clinton on her way with an average Jason to the gas station.
BROWN: Got to love it. No planning at all. HILL: Not at all.
BROWN: No choreography at all, and a 10-car motorcade on a day you're talking about an energy policy. How about that?
HILL: Yes, all large cars too.
BROWN: Erica Hill, thank you for that behind the scenes peek. Appreciate it.
They are the voters who will really decide the Democratic nomination. Up next, the invisible primary. Who are the superdelegates and which way are they leaning right now?
And the raging wildfire threatens one of the nation's greatest landmarks. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Still to come, our Suzanne Malveaux sits down with Michelle Obama and Caroline Kennedy. But first, they are just about to get started. There they are.
But first, Erica Hill is joining us once again with "The Briefing."
HILL: Campbell, thanks.
The Taliban appears to be regaining strength in Afghanistan. A new State Department report says the former Afghan government ousted after 9/11 is actually beefing up its military and technical capabilities. The report does know, though, that counterinsurgency efforts in some areas have been successful.
High winds are fueling a dangerous wildfire just outside Grand Canyon tonight. That fire was spotted yesterday. It's already burned more than 2,000 acres.
And David Blaine breathing a sigh of relief tonight. Today live on the Oprah Winfrey show, the magician set a new world record for holding his breath, an astounding 17 minutes, four seconds. Blaine says he did it with meditation. Oh, and also before he went under, he did inhale pure oxygen to saturate his lungs and blood with extra oxygen. Good for him, but I have to ask why.
BROWN: Yes. Don't try this at home, kids.
All right. Erica, thank you as always.
Michelle Obama and Caroline Kennedy are now in the room now with our Suzanne Malveaux. You're looking at a live picture right now, and you will see the entire interview tonight on "AC 360."
Plus, Randi Kaye profiles the woman who could be our next first lady. And here's a bit of a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michelle majored in sociology, minor in African-American studies. Here is where she first struggled with her identity and ambitions. In her thesis she wrote, "My experiences have made me far more aware of my 'blackness' than ever before. I sometimes feel like a visitor on campus."
She graduated from Harvard Law School and took a job at the Chicago law firm. Before long, Barack Obama would enter her life. What would it take to win her heart?
CRAIG ROBINSON, MICHELLE OBAMA'S BROTHER: All I could think of was, oh, this is -- it can't come out well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The Michelle Obama interview and much more tonight on "AC 360" at 10:00 Eastern time.
Coming up, how does Barack Obama convince superdelegates that the Wright scandal won't drag him down in a general election? That's coming up in the "War Room." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We've been telling you for weeks now that there are not enough elected delegates left to give the Democratic presidential nomination to Hillary Clinton or to Barack Obama. The race will be decided by the party's superdelegates, and about one-third of them still aren't saying who they're going to support.
Tom Foreman tells us what it will take to turn them one way or the other.
FOREMAN: Campbell, the superdelegates who have declared a choice started out this year favoring Hillary Clinton massively. Now, however, her lead is down to just about 20 people. So the number that really matters is this one -- the undeclared. And this group actually contains two subgroups with different motivations guiding their decision.
The first group is made up of all Democratic governors, representatives and senators. Eighty of these folks are undeclared. Which way will they go? Well, so far, members of this group have favored Obama, just barely. Take a look at the numbers.
The rest are expected to follow this trend because many serve in states that Obama has won and they don't want to go against the voters because after all, they need those very same voters for their own reelection.
So, Clinton's main target is the other group -- superdelegates who have a vote because the party considers them to be important Democratic activists at the state or national level. About 200 of these people are undeclared at this point. And when you look at those who have declared, you can see that she's been winning with this crowd substantially.
This group is much more likely to worry about that core question of electability. Which candidate can beat John McCain? And this is the group Clinton is pounding on over Obama's preacher problems.
Still, this remains undeniably an uphill battle for Clinton. Remember, Obama is ahead in the popular vote, the delegate count and states won. So many experienced political analysts and reporters believe the bulk of the undeclared superdelegates are leaning his way, and just waiting for him to win a couple of more states so then they can say the voters have spoken and now we will, too -- Campbell.
BROWN: Tom Foreman. Thanks, Tom.
In just a few minutes, Michael Moore, he is Larry King's guest, the guy who seems to be an equal opportunity agitator.
Larry, what are you guys going to talk about tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Well, he will take no prisoners. That's what makes him fun. He is back. The filmmaker, controversial figure, Michael Moore, who's always interesting. He's never dull. He has endorsed by the way Barack Obama, and he's ready to tell us why.
No topic off limits. He is taking on the Bush administration, gun control, health care, and a lot more. Michael Moore at the hour, live, uncensored only on LARRY KING LIVE -- Campbell.
BROWN: OK, Larry, we will see you at 9:00 Eastern time.
KING: Thanks, dear.
BROWN: And it's just six days until voters in Indiana and North Carolina have their say. But there is another contest, even more important we take the fight for superdelegates into the "War Room" coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So what is the strategy to win the battle for Democratic superdelegates? We're in the "War Room" now with our partisan tacticians. We've got Democratic strategist Tad Devine. He was chief political consultant on Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign, and Republican strategist Rick Wilson who worked with Rudy Giuliani's 2000 Senate campaign team.
Tad, let me start with you. It all comes down to the superdelegates. We've been saying it for a while now. And as Tom Foreman told us, this is a pretty diverse bunch. A lot of competing interest here.
So let's say that you are Clinton's guy, how do you convince them to endorse her and to endorse her now? Who do you deploy to twist arms? TAD DEVINE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: First of all, you deploy their peers. You know, you get members of Congress to talk to other members of Congress who are uncommitted. You get superdelegates from a certain state to call the DNC members and other delegates from the state, people they know. Those are the best people to persuade them, people they have relationships with.
BROWN: And Rick, these elected officials, the superdelegates, you know, they're worried about their own political futures. Let's say you're Obama's guy. Republicans are already using him in ads against Democratic candidates. How do you convince a wavering superdelegate that Obama won't drag them down in November?
RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, if you're Obama, you have to run a zero defects campaign from here on out. Hope that the Reverend Wright shuts his mouth. And you have to be in a position going forward where you win either Indiana or North Carolina convincingly to tell them that you got your groove back after a couple of weeks of being very much on the ropes after Pennsylvania, after the bitter comments, and after the reverend's shenanigans the last few days.
BROWN: And Rick, the key word here is electability, that's at least for Hillary Clinton.
WILSON: Right.
BROWN: That's what she's been hitting, really hard is her theme. And Obama has given her many openings over the past couple of weeks. How does she build on that? What pitfalls does she need to avoid?
WILSON: Well, in Hillary's case, she has to run the numbers and run the board in both Indiana and in North Carolina. She has to do very well in both those states.
And, you know -- and Tad is an expert on this. He knows how to do the head counting stuff inside the Democratic superdelegates. Their chemistry is going to be very delicate in the coming weeks because they're thinking to themselves on the one hand, we've got Hillary who may be beatable in the general. On the other hand, we've got Obama who looked great for a while, but has suddenly faltered in a lot of different ways.
And if he makes more mistakes or if more -- you know, if Bill Ayers becomes an issue or if he has to renounce somebody else in the coming weeks, they're going to get nervous and they're going to see the electability equation as looming very large then look at Hillary and say, hmm, it's the devil we know.
BROWN: Yes. Tad, Michelle Obama's making the rounds today, as we've talking about, defending her husband on the Reverend Wright issue. But at times, she's actually been a controversial figure herself. How would you use her as we make this sort of final push into Indiana and North Carolina?
DEVINE: Well, I think they've been very effective using her the way they did in recent days by having her with her husband. I think the two of them together are very, very good image. I think it shows their relationship a very strong relationship of many years. Their values, their family which is a remarkable and very good and attractive family for political campaign purposes certainly.
So I think having her there, right with him in the same place at the same time is a very strong image.
BROWN: And Rick, what about the other political spouse, Bill Clinton. We all know he can be a big asset. He can also be pretty hard to handle. If you are running that campaign, what do you do to keep Bill Clinton on message?
WILSON: You know, I think you have to put Bill Clinton in specific audiences and specific markets, and you have to give him the talking points and say, I know you're a natural showman. I know you love to do this. But for the love of God, run the talking points. Clap, shake hands, walk out of the room.
BROWN: All right.
WILSON: If he just -- he has been -- he's been a wild card this entire cycle.
BROWN: Yes. Tad and Rick, OK, hold it right here. We're going to have a lot more about the superdelegates, and we are going to hear from Michelle Obama next. Part of that interview is coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Just minutes ago, our Suzanne Malveaux asked Michelle Obama about the Pastor Wright firestorm that is weighing heavily on her husband's campaign. She was not very eager to talk about it.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Michelle, obviously, the headlines here, Reverend Wright. You've known him for more than 20 years. He officiated your wedding. He baptized your children. When he went up there before the National Press and said your husband criticized him because he's a politician, because that's what they do to get elected, did he betray you?
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF SEN. BARACK OBAMA: You know, I don't think it's helpful to sort of label it. I think, you know, Barack, I was proud of the statement that he made yesterday. It was tough thing for him to do. It's a painful situation to be in.
But I think that Barack's race speech was one of the most powerful, emotional speeches that he's written in his life. And I think the response to that speech spoke for itself. That wasn't a speech of a political opportunist. Barack has been tried to bridge divides all of his life, and I think that speech was really a sincere attempt to help bring clarity to a very difficult issue that this country has yet to deal with.
I was proud of him then. I'm proud of him today, and we want to move forward. I think that's part of what Barack's speech said in Philadelphia was that we have to let go of these old wounds, these old labels, these old hurts because they just don't solve problems.
And we're hearing from the American voters that they're tired of it, too. The news of the day, nationally is one thing. But here in Booneville, in Indianapolis, when we go to Jacksonville, folks are concerned about jobs. They're concerned about their health care. They're tired of the name-calling and the distractions, and our job from this point forward is to stay focus on the race.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Much more of the Michelle Obama interview tonight on "AC 360" at 10:00 p.m. Eastern time. Right now, we want to go back to "War Room" to Democrat Tad Devine and Republican Rick Wilson. And let me just get your reaction to what she just said. Tad, what do you think?
DEVINE: I think she just demonstrated why she's such an incredible asset to Barack Obama. Someone who can come in to a delicate situation like this, handle it so calmly, and turn the debate back to the issues that they want to discuss in this campaign.
BROWN: Rick.
WILSON: She is an asset to the campaign. But, unfortunately, she's trying to work off of a terrible script. Barack Obama keeps having skeletons fall out of his closet whether they are the Reverend Wright or Tony Rezko or various Marxist crazy people. This is a guy who gave a beautiful speech in Philadelphia then gave version 2.0 of that speech yesterday. Now what happens next?
Do we have Renunciation 3.0 when Reverend Wright says something else crazy? I mean, she can stay on message all day long as she was perfectly on message. She's very poised. She's got her act together.
But the fact of the matter is Barack Obama's personal history is full of people and full of ideas that aren't sitting right with the main stream. And the more they get out there and the more people know about them, and there were people realizing, walk through the problem like, oh, 20 years in the church, and we just suddenly realize blinding flash of the obvious, you know, it just doesn't hold water. I'm sorry.
BROWN: Tad, what do you think happens next because I don't think you saw it in the portion of the interview that we played. But later on, she goes on to say that her husband is now the underdog in this race. When are they going to be able to put this to rest? And is that strategy sort of portraying yourself as the underdog, we know what the math is, does that really work?
DEVINE: Well, it's always great to be the underdog in a Democratic primary. I can tell you. It's typically a winning position.
But I think the way they put it to rest is pretty basic and fundamental. You have to win. You got to go to North Carolina, and they've got to win North Carolina. They got to go to Indiana. They got to do well.
They got a big event after that in Oregon. It's a target state, a battleground state. It's a place where he's favored. He needs to win there. I think if he goes and wins with voters, they'll put it to bed.
BROWN: All right. We got to end it there, guys. Tad Devine and Rick Wilson, thanks so much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
And we should mention we'll have much more from Suzanne Malveaux's interview with Michelle Obama tonight at 10:00 Eastern on "AC 360".
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
