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Nancy Grace
Authorities say too Many Broken Bones Among FLDS Children
Aired April 30, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history after a secret and desperate phone call for help, 463 children plus 100 women rescued from an isolated Texas compound. Headlines tonight. We all knew about the alleged systematic marriages and childbirths forced on girls as young as 13, but now a full-scale investigation into alleged rampant physical and sex abuse on the little boys on that compound.
We now know of 41 children documented with injuries, including broken bones -- 41. And tonight, state`s exhibit number one. In the last 24 hours, an underage FLDS girl gives birth, while other teens refuse pregnancy tests, this after stunning numbers of teen pregnancies on that compound, three in five girls as young as 14 pregnant -- three in five! The Lone Star State heads into legal battle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The details are getting worse for that polygamist ranch in Texas. We`re now hearing some young boys were possibly molested and there also could be physical abuse, as dozens of children show evidence of having broken bones.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have identified 41 children with past diagnosis of broken or fractured bones. Several of these fractures have been found in very young children, and several have multiple fractures.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A teenager removed from that polygamist compound in Texas gave birth to a baby boy. Child welfare officials say she is doing well, and they also say she is younger than 18. But a spokesperson for the church insists the new mom is 18 and in a monogamous marriage to a 22-year-old. The teen also has a 16-month-old child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no force. And we want the children and they want us. They are clean and pure. And this is the worst thing that has happened to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, home alone. She wakes up in the middle of the night, desperate for help, an intruder breaking into her home. Quickly, she calls 911, but 911 dispatch falls asleep, yes, falls asleep, actually snoring into the phone! And this is not the first time. We`ve got it all on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A woman claims she called 911 with a real emergency, and the dispatcher fell asleep on the line. She says she thought someone was trying to break into her house, but when she called, she says she got no response. A Memphis woman says she spent a minute explaining her emergency and then thinks she heard snoring on the line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just heard tapping on my window. I need somebody over here. My dog heard it. My dog got up.
911 OPERATOR: (SNORING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you there?
911 OPERATOR: Yes, ma`am. What is the -- what is your address? Ma`am, you there?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. We knew about the alleged systematic marriages and childbirths forced on girls as young as 13 at an isolated Texas compound. But now 41 children -- 41 children -- with broken bones, alleged sex abuse on little boys, as well. And state`s exhibit number one, another teen FLDS girl gives birth in the last 24 hours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Texas welfare child agency that has custody of more than 400 kids from a polygamist compound has yet another youngster on its hands because a teenager from the compound is now a mother. There are some questions, though, about her age. Child welfare officials list her as a minor and say she is under the age of 18.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are minor girls who are pregnant and some who have children, indicating sexual abuse may have occurred. There are a total of 27 persons with a reported age of 14 to 17. Of those 27, we have been able to confirm that 8 are pregnant, have children or both.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a shocking twist, Child Protection Services says investigators are looking into possible sexual abuse not only against girls, but young boys. The agency says the investigation is early, but they have cause for concern, CPS also claiming 41 kids have had broken bones in the past, investigators having difficulty interviewing many YFZ children who have allegedly been coached by their own mothers to lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The complaint that the state has is they thought these children were in danger of being forced into marriage at ages 16 and younger, the girls in particular. And that`s why they moved in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you saying that...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No force. No force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, 41 broken bones? Now allegations of sex abuse on the little boys, as well? And overnight a teenage girl gives birth, an underage girl gives birth?
Out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio, joining us there in San Antonio. Michael, what`s going on?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Yes, it`s a good question, Nancy. What is going on? Yesterday, we heard that an 18-year-old girl, or maybe someone who is younger than 18, gave birth to a child. She did give birth to a very happy, healthy little baby boy. But the question is, How old is she? The people there at the hospital and CPS investigators do not believe she`s 18 years old.
Now, the attorney for this group, this polygamist cult, came out and said, Oh, no, she`s over 18, don`t worry. But Nancy, really, you have to take everything that this group says with a grain of salt. Today in Austin, we heard the head of Texas Child Protective Services go through one instance after another about how their investigators were lied to and deceived from -- from the moment they set foot on this compound.
GRACE: In fact, it`s my understanding, Michael Board, that the children and the mothers who were taken into the Coliseum, rescued off that compound, they were identified in various groups and were given bracelet identifications, and that the moms went around and tore up the bracelets, marked off the names on the bracelets, swapped bracelets. Why? I don`t understand this.
BOARD: Well, here`s something that`ll shock you even more. The head of Texas Child Protective Services who was talking today in Austin told us who were listening in on what he was saying that there was one instance where the investigators were on the compound, starting to interview these teenage girls. They sat down with one teenage girl they believed to be very young, and they said, Honey, how old are you? She gave them a blank stare. She looked up at her "spiritual husband" and said, How old am I? He turned to her and said, You`re 18. The girl turned to the investigator and said, I`m 18 years old.
GRACE: To Jayna Boyle with "The San Angelo Standard Times." Jayna, thank you for being with us. Can you please explain to me 41 broken bones on these children?
JAYNA BOYLE, "SAN ANGELO STANDARD TIMES": Yes, that`s what was reported today, 41 broken bones. Not necessarily current broken bones, but they do say that they`re -- they don`t have all the X-rays or medical information, so it`s kind of too early to draw conclusions based on that information.
GRACE: Michael Board, what can you tell me about the 41 broken bones?
BOARD: Well, some of them were multiple broken bones, like they were talking about. And you think about, you know, why -- why -- what could cause this? Is there -- is it -- is it signs of abuse, like some people think it is? Well, that is one possibility. But you also have to think about this, Nancy. What causes brittle bones? Genetics. So you have to...
GRACE: Brittle bones? Wa, wa, wa, wa, wa, wa!
BOARD: Genetics...
GRACE: Brittle bones in little children?
BOARD: Well, they -- that`s what FLDS lawyers are telling everybody...
GRACE: You`re kidding me!
BOARD: No, they say...
GRACE: Brittle -- whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait~! I`ve got to call in a doctor right now, Dr. Marty Makary joining us from D.C. He is a physician. He is a professor of public health with Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, please! Look, I`m a JD, not a DR, like you. But don`t even start telling me that 41 children have brittle bones!
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: It`s really hard to imagine. Unless they`ve been deprived of milk and any source of calcium for their entire childhood, there`s no reason to believe that they`re predisposed to a higher risk of broken bones.
GRACE: Brittle bones? Unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Daniel Horowitz. Did you hear that, Horowitz? The defense to all these broken bones on these children is brittle bones, like osteoporosis, like maybe your grandmother might have, Daniel?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I haven`t heard anybody tell me that 1 out of 11 kids from, let`s say, birth until age 15, 16 having a broken bone during their life is so unusual. I mean, in my family, we broke that record. So what`s so special about it? Why are we focusing on...
GRACE: OK, you know what?
HOROWITZ: ... that statistic?
GRACE: Let`s ask the doctor. Let`s ask the doctor.
HOROWITZ: There we do.
GRACE: I don`t know, Dr. Marty Makary, maybe it`s just me having been a prosecutor and seen so much child abuse and mistreatment of children, but that sounds like a pretty staggering number to me, 41 children, that we know of, with broken bones? I mean, you`ve got a broken bone, what else do you have that doesn`t show up in an X-ray?
MAKARY: Well, Nancy, that number is way too high. We know that "The Journal of the American Medical Association" has reported an average incidence of 4 per 1,000. That`s less than half of 1 percent per year. So these numbers are staggering. And most concerning, they`re a risk for arthritis for the rest of their life.
GRACE: OK, Horowitz, Rockwell, there`s your answer.
HOROWITZ: I don`t buy it.
GRACE: You don`t buy it, what a doctor from Johns Hopkins is telling you?
HOROWITZ: No because...
GRACE: You think I coached him? You think he`s lying?
HOROWITZ: I think he`s exaggerating. I...
GRACE: You think the doctor...
HOROWITZ: ... know so many people with broken bones. Come on!
GRACE: He doesn`t have a dog in the fight, Daniel.
HOROWITZ: I think he does.
GRACE: There`s no skin the game...
HOROWITZ: I think he does.
GRACE: ... for Makary.
HOROWITZ: Put him on the stand...
GRACE: OK...
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy...
HOROWITZ: ... with me. I`ll show his bias.
ROCKWELL: Why are we talking about broken bones? That has nothing to do with this. The bigger nightmare is now there`s sexual allegations, sexual abuse allegations on younger men.
GRACE: Pause!
ROCKWELL: That is...
GRACE: Pause. OK. We`re not talking about younger "men," we`re talking little boys, broken bones of children. I don`t know if anybody here on this set has been living under a rock lately, but all the children were taken off the FLDS ranch, Renee, because of child abuse allegations. And the FLDS has been screaming bloody murder that because maybe there were some underage marriages, all the other children weren`t abused. Now we`ve got 41 broken bones in children and we`ve got 3 out of 5 underage girls pregnant. Thoughts?
ROCKWELL: And potential allegations of sexual abuse on young boys, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes. Yes.
ROCKWELL: So that`s way out of control. Nobody`s going to be able to start waving a flag that, This is religion and leave us alone, because of this.
GRACE: OK...
ROCKWELL: I`m on your side right now.
GRACE: Back out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Tell me about the medical facility there on the compound. If they would deliver births - - and I`m sure that includes cesarean, breech, you name it, blood transfusions, I don`t know -- did they also handle these broken bones, as well, on these children?
BOARD: Well, that`s a good question. You`re going to have to ask the doctor, who is a member of this sect, who runs the family practice on the compound in Eldorado. You might want to wonder, you know, who is this guy? His name is Dr. Lloyd Barlow (ph). He`s got three offices for his family practice. One is in Hilldale, Utah. One is in Colorado City, Arizona. And one is in Eldorado, Texas.
Yes, he is a member of this sect. You have to believe that he was involved intimately with the birthing of babies, no matter what the age of the women are. Yes, if there were teenage girls on this compound giving birth, he was there. He would know about it. And yes, we`re told Texas Rangers have begun their investigation into Dr. Barlow.
GRACE: Dr. -- what`s his first name?
BOARD: Dr. Lloyd -- L-L-O-Y-D -- Lloyd Barlow.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Char in Minnesota. Hi, Char.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, could any of the children or the parents have been abducted years ago, especially the adults because they`re running away from DNA, and then brainwashed and are now living that life because of this?
GRACE: OK, what...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you understand?
GRACE: Wa, wa, wa, wa, wa, wait. No, I don`t. Tell me that scenario again, Char?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kids that are abducted, like Jacob Wetterling (ph). Let`s say he never showed up and he ended up being brainwashed into this sect and now is an adult. Because some of them are not giving DNA tests, there has to be a reason why. So could they have been brainwashed to live this life?
GRACE: Let`s go out to Michael Board. What about that scenario?
BOARD: Well, Nancy, what we`ve been told by investigators who have been, you know, researching the past of what this cult here in Texas was, their origins, what we`re told is that this group here in Texas was specifically supposed to be the cream of the crop of this weird little cult that`s been operating in Hilldale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona. Also, they`ve got a group up in Canada. The group here in Texas was supposed to be the best of the best of this group here. So it`s not likely that they picked up people off the street and brought them here. This was supposed to be their -- their prime crop.
GRACE: You know, that`s an interesting point, Michael Board. The people that founded Yearning For Zion, the Zion compound, it`s my understanding, were hand-picked...
BOARD: Right.
GRACE: ... and sent there from Arizona. So my question is, Arizona and other states are now saying, Well, we are prosecuting too. Other than a few isolated prosecutions, they aren`t doing anything! The problem migrates to Texas. They`ve have been there in Texas since 2004, and Texas is finally doing something about it. Do you think the other states are going to take a hint and get busy?
BOARD: I don`t know. It`s been happening in Arizona and...
GRACE: Utah.
BOARD: ... Colorado -- it`s been happening there a lot longer...
GRACE: And Utah.
BOARD: ... than it`s been happening here in Texas. Utah, yes. It`s been happening there a lot longer than here in Texas. You would think if they knew, you know, had proof, evidence there that it was going on, you would hope that they have done something a long time ago.
GRACE: Oh, please!
BOARD: Here in Texas, it`s -- you know, things operate a little bit different here in Texas. We don`t take some of the stuff that maybe other states take.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It is Susan Hays. She is one of the many, many lawyers representing a 2-year-old FLDS girl. And let me remind you, as much as many people hate lawyers, these lawyers are doing this, many of them, for free, taking it upon themselves to represent these children.
Susan, it`s a pleasure to have you on. Are you getting the information from CPS and from the government that you need to represent your little girl?
SUSAN HAYS, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING 2-YEAR-OLD FLDS GIRL: Absolutely not, and I`m furious about it. And what I`ve found is quite the opposite. The family members have been very open with me and with many of the other lawyers, and CPS is sending out press releases with salacious details instead of helping us represent these children.
GRACE: What salacious details are you talking about?
HAYS: What y`all have been talking about on this program, the hysteria over 41 broken bones. I fell off a horse when I was 6 and broke my arm and a collarbone. It doesn`t make my parents child abusers. We need to get to facts and not insinuations and start working these cases instead of CPS worrying about their media image.
GRACE: So the fact that there are 41 broken bones, if that is, in fact, true, you find that salacious?
HAYS: I find the fact it was released, when we don`t know if it`s true, salacious. And I have -- find the fact of people saying a girl...
GRACE: But it`s the truth.
HAYS: We don`t know that it`s true.
GRACE: If it`s the truth, you still find it wrong that it was released?
HAYS: I find it wrong that it was released when they haven`t notified the 41 attorneys representing those children that their kids may be in physical abuse situations. The attorneys need the information...
GRACE: How do you know they haven`t?
HAYS: ... to do their jobs. Because the attorneys are all e-mailing each other, asking...
GRACE: All of them?
HAYS: ... when is CPS going to tell us...
GRACE: All 463? You`re in contact with all of them?
HAYS: As much as we can be in contact because the court system in Texas still doesn`t have a good list of us, which is ridiculous.
GRACE: Ma`am, this is only about a month old. Don`t you realize how much CPS is overwhelmed? You know, every...
HAYS: And I very much blame the state of Texas for not giving them the resources...
GRACE: Yes, you know what?
HAYS: ... they need to do their job.
GRACE: They should have just left all the kids on that compound, Susan, and let them continue to get broken bones naturally, like you did...
HAYS: No, Nancy, when I represent...
GRACE: ... and get molested.
HAYS: ... a kid in court, I need to know when there are hearings in that case or orders coming out in that case, and we`re not right now.
GRACE: But why are you...
HAYS: The district court`s office out there...
GRACE: ... blaming CPS? They`re clearly...
HAYS: ... doesn`t have enough resources...
GRACE: ... doing all they can.
HAYS: ... to handle the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state is saying that children -- young girls as young as 13 or 14 are selected and forced into marriage. Is that true?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is not true. I had a choice when I was married.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But are there any young women ages 16 and under who marry out here? And how often does that happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not real common.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How young would you say is the youngest girl you`ve seen married out here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably 16.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know for a fact that many of those children would not take that test, and they put them down as pregnant when they would not take the test.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that`s a major (INAUDIBLE) That`s important. That`s exactly -- that`s exactly why we want to talk to you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) know (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So basically, you`re saying...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) cases (INAUDIBLE) they will be lucky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn of allegations of 41 broken bones amongst the children taken off the FLDS ranch. In the last 24 hours, an underage girl, according to Child Protective Services, has given birth. That`s state`s exhibit number one. And now allegations that many of the young boys have been sexually molested, as well. It`s almost too much to take in.
Back out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Why hasn`t somebody been arrested?
HAYS: Well, it`s just the very beginning of this process right now. We just got past I think the second hurdle in this. The first was going onto the compound. The second was the temporary custody. We`re going to go now into the permanent custody issue. Once they get done with that, we`re going to get into the criminal charges. And that is going to be very difficult because the girl who made the original phone call, that secret phone call in the middle of the night, they believe she may be doing this as a hoax. It may be a Colorado woman who makes these phone calls as a hoax. If this mystery Sarah (ph) does not exist, it is going to be very difficult for the state of Texas to prove the criminal charges in this. Remember, we`re not talking about child welfare. There`s a much lower threshold...
GRACE: Right.
HAYS: ... for child welfare.
GRACE: To Susan Hays. She`s actually representing one of the FLDS children. Susan, how will that affect the actual raid on the compound under Texas law, if the original phone call was a hoax?
HAYS: That`s only going to affect the criminal cases. It won`t have an effect on the custody cases, as they`re civil matters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need our children. And they said, If you don`t make your choice right now, then you`re not going to have a choice. And I said, Wait a minute. Tell me what`s going on. Then they told me that if I didn`t do what they said that I`d be arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My oldest girl saw these other girls going down, and so she came to me and says, They`re going to take me. Mother, they`re going to take me. Don`t let them take me. I don`t want to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Some of the FLDS women speaking after the raid on that Texas compound. Tonight, stunning developments.
Out to the lines. Crystal in California. Hi, Crystal. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I just wanted to know how have they been able to tell that the boys have been abused?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Jayna Boyle with "The San Angelo Standard Times." Where are these allegations coming from, Jayna?
BOYLE: These allegations are coming from interviews with the children, as well as journal entries that have been found at the ranch.
GRACE: Journal entries. What type of journal entries, Jayna, do we know?
BOYLE: That`s a really good question. We actually -- we don`t have any more information than what was provided today by CPS.
GRACE: So Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio, now that they are actually interviewing the children, this is what they`re learning, that some of the little boys have apparently been sexually molested, as well as the young girls?
HAYS: Well, Nancy, I remember that the first day that this went before the judge for this temporary custody hearing, they talked about when CPS investigators originally got on the compound and started going through the classrooms. One of the places they went was the boys` classroom. That`s where they found these journals. And that`s definitely part of this investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A teenager removed from that polygamous compound in Texas gave birth to a baby boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: There is no force. And we want the children.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The teen also has a 16-month-old child.
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: They are clean and pure and this is the worst thing that has happened to them.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The allegation is this has been an area, a ranch, a compound, if you will, where underage girls have sex with much older men. They are a lot of child brides.
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: That is not the fact. There are no facts to that.
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: There is no force here.
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We need -- we just love children. They are beautiful things.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: The scenario out of that Texas compound appears to be getting worse and worse. Amidst allegations of 41 broken bones amongst the children rescued, a teen giving birth yesterday, an underage girl according to CPS, Child Protective Services. And now, allegations that the young boys were molested as well. This coming from interviews with CPS and from apparently, the children`s journals found during the raid.
Out to Carolyn Jessop, a special guest joining us tonight. She is the former wife of YFC, Yearning for Zion, leader Merrill Jessop, and she`s the author of the book, "Escape."
Carolyn, thank you for being with us. What is your reaction to learning 41 broken bones on these children behind those Texas compound walls?
CAROLYN JESSOP, AUTHOR OF "ESCAPE," FORMER WIFE OF YFZ LEADER MERRILL JESSOP: I was sick. It just made me feel sick about the whole thing, but I wasn`t surprised. There was so much violence in Merrill`s family and different episodes that I witnessed with children that could have broken bones. And I don`t know the level the violence went to once they got everybody behind -- you know at this tight of control.
GRACE: Carolyn, when you say you`re not surprised, why and what did you observe?
JESSOP: Well, I watched. I mean there was different cases where I witnessed one of the mothers take her baby out during Sunday school. She was the one -- 12-month-old baby out and beat her with a broom. And you know, you start hitting a little child with a broom that hard, you can break bones.
There were other episodes where I witnessed different family members kick a child so hard that they flew into cupboards -- flew across the room and hit into cupboards. And so, it was just a way of life in a sense. It was a very tragic way of life. That very common.
GRACE: You know, Carolyn, I was just thinking about my two twins and how I did a back flip when John David scratched his face with his fingernail, because it left a little scratch right here. And I was so worried about hurting him that I filed his nails because I didn`t want to cut them with a fingernail clipper.
And now I`m hearing your stories and about 41 broken bones. And you know, you don`t just dream up broken bones.
JESSOP: No.
GRACE: You see them on an X-ray. You can tell a bone has been fractured or broken in the past.
JESSOP: The other element here is this society has no genetic condition for brittle bones. I`ve never heard of that before. There is no such thing that exists in this community.
GRACE: Yes, you know what, I want to go back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Daniel Horowitz.
You would think they`d come up with something a little better than brittle bone syndrome.
Daniel Horowitz, you want to defend that again?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I still don`t believe your doctor, Nancy. Didn`t he say that five out of every thousand people.
GRACE: You already said that.
HOROWITZ: .breaks a bone a year?
GRACE: No. That`s not what he said.
Dr. Marty Makary, I believe, you`re referring specifically to the child population?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Right. According to a Mayo Clinic study and the Journal of the American Medical Association five per 1,000 is the annual rate of fractures among children.
HOROWITZ: Then I did the math. Wait a minute.
GRACE: Oh so it`s not just Dr. Makary, Horowitz, the Mayo Clinic is in on the conspiracy, too. You know how they are, sneaky.
HOROWITZ: Do the math. I did the math, Nancy. That means that over 16 years, 40 our of every 500 breaks bones which is exactly what we have here.
GRACE: Over how many years?
HOROWITZ: Doctor, you spun it wrong. Out of 16 years of life, 40 out of 500 will have a broken bone. Just what we have here.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on.
Marty Makary,16 years of life. I don`t believe we`re talking about teens the aged of 16.
MAKARY: Look, Nancy, kids have bones that are pliable. Old people have brittle bones, not young people. Kids are resilient.
GRACE: How do you get brittle bone disease?
MAKARY: You really have to have a complete deficiency of milk or calcium for years.
GRACE: And you can get calcium from many, many sources, not just from milk.
MAKARY: Absolutely. Green leafy substances are the classic.
GRACE: To Renee Rockwell, the interviews that Child Protective Services are conducting with these children, also the journals that, according to Michael Board, were found during the raid could uphold allegations of sex abuse on the little boys. How will the defense beat it?
RENEE ROCKWEELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t see them being able to exclude any of this because of any bad faith by the police department. I see it all coming in and I see this whole thing tumbling like a house of cards.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Diana in New York. Hi, Diana.
DIANA, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi. Love your show, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you.
DIANA: I would like to know, because that there so many young girls having children and that there had been -- so many stillborns, will there be any investigation into the cause of deaths of some of these babies with the possibility that they -- some of them may have died by other means?
GRACE: To Donald Schweitzer, former detective there in Santa Ana P.D., how would that type of investigation take place? I mean, Susan Hays is angry because her client, a young FLDS girl, she`s not getting the appropriate documentation yet, is because the system is totally overwhelmed. Do you believe they`ll ever be able to go back, exhume those bodies to find cause of death?
DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA P.D.: It may or may not. But let me say this, Nancy, is this is going to be an extremely easy place to investigate crime. You`ve got a limited amount of territory. You`ve got known people that live within it. You`ve got DNA. They got all the time in the world. There`s going to be plenty of indictments in this case.
Lots of people can go to prison. I don`t know what, you know, they`re going to be able to dig up when they exhume bodies and things like that. But there`s going to be a lot of people that are -- could be found guilty of -- of very bad crimes.
GRACE: Unless, Leslie Austin, psychotherapist joining us, the women continue to repeat the line they`ve been given.
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, they do. And probably it`s because they don`t know any better. When they say there`s no abuse, they actually really don`t know in their life experience that they have over choices. And they will take anything that`s been forced upon them. They don`t know any better and it`s very tragic.
I wonder what else we don`t know because there weren`t medical records kept that we know about. We don`t know what really happened, who died, who was injured.
GRACE: Out to the lines. We are taking your calls live. To Beth in Indiana. Hi, Beth.
BETH, INDIANA RESIDENT: Hello, Nancy. I first saw your show in January, 2005 and I`ve been watching ever since.
GRACE: You know what? Thank you very much and thank you for calling in. What is your question, dear?
BETH: My question is, why would the doctor be trying to cover up for these people saying it`s genetic? I mean that doesn`t make any sense.
GRACE: Excellent question, Michael Board, why? What could be a possible motive?
BOARD: Well, it`s very easy motive. He is a member of this sect. He is one of them. He has every reason in the world to lie or deceive because this is his life.
GRACE: To Barbara in Pennsylvania. Hi, Barbara.
BARBARA, PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT: Hi, how are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
BARBARA: Hey, I just wanted to know -- you know in this one commercial, they keep showing over and over, and they showed a little while ago in your program, where these ladies are standing there and they`re saying that if there is there she would be dead. And if anybody found out where she is or what`s going on with her?
GRACE: To Jayna Boyle with "The San Angelo Standard Times," any more information on the identity of Sarah or do we really believe the initial call was a hoax?
JAYNA BOYLE, REPORTER, SAN ANGELO STANDARD TIMES: No. Right now, there`s no additional information about the existence of Sarah. And that, you know, as far as CPS is saying, they can continue with the investigation regardless of whether Sarah is a real person or not.
GRACE: Why do you think that is allowed?
BOYLE: Well, you know, the way it was described to me is it`s like when a fire department goes out to look for a fire and if that initial fire isn`t there, but they see other fires, they`re going to go ahead and put those out.
GRACE: I understand.
BOYLE: It`s kind of the same concept.
GRACE: OK. Understood.
Debra, in Ohio. Hi, Debra.
DEB, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Love your show, watch it all the time.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
DEB: My question is, I want to know how are they getting all these welfare stuff with no birth certificates, nobody knows how old they are.
GRACE: Michael Board, I`m confounded as well. How are they getting welfare from the government without their papers?
BOARD: It`s a really good question. I know in many places, you can go out and get fake documents. I don`t know if that`s happening in this case, but I wouldn`t be surprised.
GRACE: And very quickly, Marty Makary, we`ve got about 10 seconds left, explain your position regarding child fractures and breaks.
MAKARY: Brittle bones are a condition that you`re predisposed to because of osteoporosis. That`s a condition older people get it. Women are more at risk. Young people have pliable bones.
GRACE: Everyone, we`re going to break. But at your request, brand new photos of the twins. Here, today, their first experience with food. It`s mashed organic English peas. As you can Lucy didn`t like it very much, but John David ate like a champ. There he is actually waving at the camera. I`ll post these on the Web tonight. I hope you like them.
And when we get back, home alone. She wakes up in the middle of the night desperate for help. An intruder breaking in. Quickly calls 911, but 911 dispatch falls asleep, actually snoring into the phone and we got it all caught on tape.
ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911. Do you need police of ambulance?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Is this Memphis or Shelby County?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: It`s Memphis.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: OK. Memphis, I need somebody over here. I need (INAUDIBLE) tonight. I got robbed outside my townhouse.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A guy. He took my keys from my townhouse and my keys to my vehicle and everything and I just heard tapping on my window. I need somebody over here. My dog heard it. My dog got up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Now, keep listening. Imagine, you wake up in the middle of the night with someone trying to break into your home. Keep listening. You`re going to hear snoring.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: (Snoring)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes, ma`am. What is the, um, your address? ma`am, are you there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Can you imagine if that happened on a 911 call? That`s exactly what happened.
Out to Ben Ferguson with WREC 600AM. I understand they didn`t take action until somebody called Action 5 got involved and suddenly launched an investigation.
BEN FERGUSON, TALK SHOW HOST, REPORTER, WREC 600AM: Yes, WMC 5 actually asked for a copy of the tape and then said, you know, what is the disciplinary action. And they didn`t even do anything to discipline until the TV station actually started running their promos about this story. And then all of a sudden, they come up with -- they`re on leave and basically, all that`s happened as of now is a supervisor was relieved for 20 days only because the TV station shamed them into doing it.
And the dispatcher is on leave only for seven days after snoring, falling asleep, when someone calls 911. Now you tell me that seven days is enough.
GRACE: OK. I`m a little afraid to ask this question, Ben Ferguson, but is it leave with pay?
FERGUSON: That`s a good question. And actually they`re looking into seeing what it`s going to be because, again, the NPA is -- MPD has done not a very good job with their PR on this one of telling what`s really going on. They`re saying that there may be more coming, there may not be more time coming for this two, but for seven days only and 20 days for a supervisor.
I think a lot of people were asking the question, why did the supervisor get more than the person that fell asleep and snored when someone was saying, someone is trying to get into my house, I`m calling 911?
GRACE: Is it possible the supervisor tried to cover up?
Let`s go to Kevin Willett. He`s the president of Public Safety Training Consultants, jobsin911.com.
Kevin Willett, thank you for being with us. What is the SOP for 911 operators when a call comes in?
KEVIN WILLETT, JOBSIN911.COM, PRESIDENT, PUBLIC SAFETY TRAINING CONSULTANTS: The absolute first thing that we`re responsible for is verifying the address, the phone number and type of emergency, and from there, gathering information so we can send out the best resources as quickly and expediently as possible.
GRACE: OK, now, don`t be shocked, everybody, but this isn`t the first time it`s happened.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Anne Arundel County 911.
UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: (Snoring)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes? What`s the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I already told you. You don`t remember me telling you what was wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: This is -- hello?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Hello. Who`s there?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Did you hear all that?
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: No, sir. What was going on?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Incredible. That`s three 911 calls where you can hear the person snoring, the dispatcher.
Back to Ben Ferguson with WREC 600AM joining us from Memphis. So the only way this was uncovered is because Action 5 found out about it. How did they find out about it?
FERGUSON: I think they were tipped off and they said you should request these tapes. They did an open records request for this and because it`s public record, and it took over a month to get the phone call released from the Memphis Police Department. So they waited on it then they kept asking, saying, hey, what`s going to happen to this dispatcher, what`s going to happen to the supervisor?
As you can see, this call happened back in January and we`re now dealing with -- finally, we were told that the seven day suspension came down April 28th. I mean that`s quite a long time after something happens in January. It -- again, to me, it sounds like a big cover up.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Linda in Illinois. Hi, Linda.
LINDA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hello.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
LINDA: What would they do to the dispatchers if the lady would have been hurt during that snoring period or she should have been killed?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell in Atlanta, Daniel Horowitz joining us out of San Francisco.
Daniel Horowitz, what if the caller had actually been harmed or died or suffered some other type of malady or injury while the 911 operator got her beauty sleep?
HOROWITZ: You sort of wonder, Nancy, is it such gross negligence to fall asleep in this situation that you intent or implied to intend harm to the person on the other end? Is there some sort of crime that can be charge? Probably. In the real world, all that happens is this person gets fired, there`s no real penalty.
GRACE: I find that hard to believe, Renee Rockwell. No possibility of a penalty under statute or a civil suit?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, unless you are going to argue some kind of immunity, I absolutely would see a civil suit especially if they`ve been notified they have a sleep problem while on the job. Some people get their best sleep on the job which you hate to think about it when it`s a police dispatch.
GRACE: Well, I don`t know about the defense bar, Renee, but I don`t believe I`ve ever fallen asleep in court, but you know what, you speak for yourself.
What about sovereign immunity as a defense, Daniel Horowitz?
HOROWITZ: You know that`s a possibility, although there are so many exceptions to that, Nancy.
GRACE: In other words, you can`t sue the government.
HOROWITZ: Yes. Well, you can if they`re so extremely negligent. And I was talking about the dispatcher -- you know herself or himself. Now obviously they could be sued, but they`re going to be protected by the employer. There would be no personal penalty to that person who falls asleep, and that`s the problem.
GRACE: Out to psychotherapist Dr. Leslie Austin.
Leslie, it`s incredible to me that someone with this much responsibility on their shoulders, would actually fall asleep, but it`s not the first time. What does it signify?
AUSTIN: It signifies, A, that they`re not really taking their job as seriously as they need to and there are some kind of serious management issues that people could sit there and fall asleep. What`s going on in the way they are being trained?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I just heard tapping on my window. I need somebody over here.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: (Snoring)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes, ma`am. What is the.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I just heard tapping on my window. I need somebody over here.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: (Snoring)
UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes, ma`am. What is the, um, what is your address?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And just to spare you the pain, we actually cut out some of the long pause while you begin to hear the person snore. The lady sat on the line that whole time trying to get through to 911.
Out to the lines, Patricia in Florida. Hi, Patricia.
PATRICIA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hey, how are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question.
PATRICIA: We had an abduction in January where a witness saw the woman abducted in the car, and called 911, and 911 dispatcher never notified the police that they had the woman that they were looking for. There was an alert out to her, be on the look out. She never connected to the police and the woman, 21-year-old mother of two, was murdered. Raped and murdered.
GRACE: Patricia, what city is that in Florida?
PATRICIA: That is North Port, Florida.
GRACE: You know, I want to go back to Kevin Willett. He`s the president of Public Safety Training Consultants, jobsin911.com. What`s your response to what you`re hearing tonight?
WILLETT: The case that your caller just referenced is the Denise Lee case and she was indeed abducted and later murdered, and a dispatcher unfortunately didn`t do their job, but that`s now led to -- in Florida them having standards for dispatch training as can be over 200 hours. But unfortunately, the legislature said, well, we`re not going to call it mandatory. There are only 28 states right now in America that have mandated training for dispatchers.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Army Specialist Orlando Perez, 23, Houston, Texas, killed, Iraq. With a smile that lit up a room, a lawyer friend, devoted to family, loved traveling with his wife, dreamed of a family and a college degree. Leaves behind mom Nicolasa, brother Edward, sister Angelica, widow and high school sweetheart April.
Orlando Perez, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And tonight a special good night to a special friend of the show, and our hearts to their family and friends of John Dunn, a World War II vet and one of our biggest fans with a big smile and words of encouragement.
John passed away April 13th, Atlanta, Georgia. You are missed.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
