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Jihadist Web Site: Ex-Guantanamo Detainee was Iraqi Suicide Bomber; Myanmar Death Toll

Aired May 07, 2008 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Worst comes to worst in Myanmar. Days after a cyclone bearing 150-mile-an-hour winds and 20 inches of rain, a U.S. diplomat says more than 100,000 people may be dead.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the outside world is begging to get in to help, and Myanmar's military rulers, well, they aren't saying no to emergency supplies, but they're not exactly throwing open the borders either.

Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, live here at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.

KEILAR: And I'm Brianna Keilar.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

We will get you the latest on the situation in Myanmar in just a moment. But first, a story just into the CNN NEWSROOM.

Let's bring in Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

I understand, Jamie, we're talking about a former Guantanamo Bay detainee. What can you tell us?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, it's not often that you find a jihadist Web site and the Pentagon agreeing on something, but today both say that a man named Abdullah Saleh al-Ajmi was responsible for a suicide attack in Mosul against Iraqi police officers, and the Pentagon says that this man was a former detainee at the Guantanamo prison in Guantanamo, Cuba.

The Web site lauds him as a martyr and hero. The Pentagon says he was someone who was picked up in 2001 in Afghanistan, alleged to have been fighting with the Taliban against the Northern Alliance during the fighting there in 2001.

He was held in Guantanamo Bay, according to U.S. military records, until 2005, when as a Kuwaiti citizen, he was returned to Kuwait. After facing justice in Kuwait, he was released. And now the Pentagon says he's one of at least 10 former Guantanamo detainees who has shown up on the battlefield, either been captured, or killed, or in this case, believed to have carried out a suicide attack last April 26th in Mosul -- Brianna.

KEILAR: And Jamie, I know the details are really just coming in on this, but you said he went back to Kuwait, he faced justice there. Do we know what type of justice was handed out there?

MCINTYRE: Well, he was charged with terrorism offenses. Of course, during his stay at Guantanamo, he wasn't formally charged with anything, although the U.S. believed he was an enemy combatant. But he denied that he had anything to do with fighting with the Taliban. He said he was in Afghanistan to study the Koran.

He was apparently acquitted by a Kuwaiti and released sometime after his transfer in 2005. And then flash forward to 2008, he shows up in Iraq, in Mosul, according to this jihadist Web site, responsible for that terrorist attack.

Again, the Pentagon says this is the problem they have with the detainees -- and there are about 270 left -- in Guantanamo. They're never sure when they release somebody if they may be a threat in the future.

KEILAR: All right. Jamie McIntyre for us at our Washington bureau. Thanks, Jamie.

LEMON: Late word now that more than 100,000 people possibly lost their lives in this cyclone that hit Myanmar, and the U.N. is pleading with the government of Myanmar to let aid workers in to help storm victims. Food and medicine are trickling into the country, with some difficulty though. But volunteers from the outside are having a tough time getting visas, and once they get in, they face poor or nonexistent roads, no communications, and a government not used to outsiders.

It is four days since a Category 3 hurricane wiped away much of the low-lying parts of the country. The official word from Myanmar's hard-line government is that 22,000 people lost their lives, but we're hearing now as many as 100,000.

That figure is not universally trusted. The 14,000 is not universally trusted. But it may in reality be much, much higher, as we have been saying here.

Now, look at these amazing pictures just into the CNN NEWSROOM. It's video taken as a cyclone was ravaging towns on the Burmese coast. People struggling just to stay upright there. And of course the video is telling you the story.

Look at the trees bending under the cyclone winds, and the terrible, terrible aftermath that follows that. Homes weren't built to withstand wind and rain like what happened in that cyclone. There's also a question of how much warning -- how much warning villagers had and whether they were told the size and strength of that oncoming storm.

KEILAR: And as we just told you, more dreadful news here in the past few minutes. A U.S. diplomat in Myanmar saying that, yes, more than 100,000 people may be dead.

CNN's Dan Rivers saw some of the most ravaged neighborhoods.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Not even the Buddhist temples were spared the fury Cyclone Nargis. Even the venerable symbols of religion have somehow been toppled by the wind.

It brought unremitting fury to this landscape, sending much of the Irrawaddy delta into a wasteland. A land where funerals and death are at every turn. Some are buried, but many bodies are still lying beneath the rubble. And everywhere, those haunting hollow faces, the drowned world that feels beyond hope.

(on camera): But it's not just people's homes that have been destroyed here. The very infrastructure of Myanmar has taken a severe battering.

This is all that remains of a school science laboratory, completely flattened by Cyclone Nargis. The school says it doesn't know what it's going to do, and it still hasn't heard anything from the authorities.

(voice over): This is the schoolyard. The water was three feet deep, and it's miles from the river. Save the Children estimate that 40 percent of those who have died are children.

The classrooms have no roofs. It will be a long time before the lessons can be taught again here.

State television has shown aid being distributed by the army, but the need here is immense. So far, many foreign aid agencies haven't been able to get their staff and equipment into Myanmar. They say the red tape of this reclusive country is preventing progress.

Food shortages are critical in some areas, and opposition groups are cynical about the army's motives.

EGOY BANS, FREE BURMA COALITION: We are also learning the military junta, not to politicize the delivery of relief services. This is one of our concerns, because it might be that the military structure supporting the delivery of relief and rehabilitation services will be very selective and prioritize their communities that are a stronghold of the military junta. And intentionally miss out on those communities supportive of the democratization movement.

RIVERS: Another crippling problem right now is fuel. This is the line of cars waiting for gas.

(on camera): It just goes on and on and on for -- for miles, really. Just this never-ending queue, all the way down here. And I guess the people at the back are going to be waiting, God knows how long, hours and hours, you think.

(voice over): Here, the gas is $1.50 for a gallon, or for four liters. And if you don't want to wait for hours, you can pay the black market rates of 10 times that amount. But it's here in the Irrawaddy River delta that the real misery and suffering is happening. These people are reaching a breaking point. How much longer will they be made to wait before the help they desperately need arrives?

Dan Rivers, CNN, southern Myanmar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Wow. Well, many nations, including the U.S., are pleading -- or pledging, I should say, millions upon millions of dollars in aid to help Myanmar. But that's long term. People there need help on the ground, and they need it right now. And U.S. forces in the Pacific are offering as well.

Let's go straight now to the Pentagon and our correspondent there, Barbara Starr, with the very latest on this.

What's going on now with the forces in the Pacific? Are they able to get in, Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, not yet, Don. And gloom is mounting here at the Pentagon about the ability to go do anything to help this devastated area.

I think it's very clear to everyone, calls are mounting around the world from the United Nations to Europe to Asia for the military government, the military junta in Myanmar, to open the door and let the international relief community in. U.S. military officials confirm they have even approached the Chinese to act as intermediaries to approach the government in Myanmar and ask them to let the international relief community in.

The U.S. military does have a good number of humanitarian relief capabilities in Asia right now. They were conducting a relief exercise off the coast of Thailand, so there's plenty in place.

A little bit earlier today, CNN spoke to Admiral Timothy Keating, the head of the U.S. Pacific Command.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADM. TIMOTHY KEATING, COMMANDER, U.S. PACIFIC COMMAND: We've been watching this through our command center as the storm came ashore over the weekend. We began moving forces very soon thereafter.

We've been in extensive dialogue with our Department of Defense leaders and listening as the Department of State leaders and our president himself have implored Myanmar, Burma to let us come in, and it's been several days now. We do not as yet have permission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: Not only do they not have permission, they don't have a "yes," they don't have a "no." According to top officials, they are hearing nothing from the government in Myanmar, and that is leading to some considerable distress and considerable worry about the people there. What could the U.S. military in the region do? Very quickly, they have a number of helicopters they are already putting on the ground in northern Thailand, next door, so they could quickly, if they got permission, begin flowing relief supplies in that way. There are six U.S. military C-130 aircraft in Thailand. They could also bring in supplies and relief.

U.S. Navy ships have considerable water purification capability. They could be on scene within a number of days. But there's a lot of concern, Don, that time is running out for the people there, and a lot of concern about what may happen next -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr. Barbara, thank you.

KEILAR: Let's go and go ahead now and bring in CNN State Department producer Elise Labott. She was on this conference call when the top U.S. diplomat in Myanmar told the world, really, that the death toll there is much higher than previously we believe that it was.

Elise, are you there? What can you tell us?

VOICE OF ELISE LABOTT, CNN STATE DEPT. PRODUCER: I'm here, Brianna.

The U.S. charge d'affaires in Myanmar, Shelly Villarosa (ph), told reporters just moments ago in a conference call that the death toll there could exceed about 100,000. These reports coming from NGOs in the area, international NGOs that work in Myanmar and are familiar with the situation on the ground.

She said most of the deaths are coming from the rural areas, the delta, as you say. There's not potable water. There's -- because of the cyclone, the seawater contaminated the region.

Not only are people missing and presumed dead, but there's additional possible deaths because of no access to water. The basic sanitation situation very bad right now. And as Barbara and others have said, that the military government there is not allowing relief workers in to help the situation. So there's danger of even more death because of very real risk of disease outbreak is very possible.

KEILAR: Now, at last count, we heard, Elise, coming from opposition groups, as well as state-run media there, the death toll was at 22,000. That's the number we were reporting yesterday. Did this diplomat talk about why there may be a discrepancy?

LABOTT: Well, based on the people in the area, there's about five to six million people in the area, and not only are they dealing with the number of people that they believe to be dead, but the number of missing makes them believe that the death toll could reach eventually as much as 100,000.

She was careful to say that they don't believe 100,000 people are dead as of now, but as they fine the missing, as they find the missing that are believed to be dead, they believe that this figure could reach as high as 100,000 when they figure out who is -- who is missing, who is dead, and who is accounted for.

KEILAR: CNN State Department producer Elise Labott. Thank you so much for joining us on the phone.

LEMON: OK. So if you went to bed last night without knowing who won the Indiana Democratic primary, Lake County is the reason, of course. Or you were just too sleep to stay up. The second largest county in the state, on the outskirts of Chicago, saw a much bigger vote than unusual, especially from absentee voters.

Our Susan Roesgen tried to find out why it took so long to get those results.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Election commissioners here at the Lake County administration building kept the state of Indiana and the entire nation waiting for the results of the Democratic primary. Those commissioners told us that it was simply a case of 11,000 absentee ballots that had to be counted, mostly by hand.

MICHELLE FAJMAN, ELECTION SUPERVISOR: They verify signatures from the application to the ballot. Then they separate those, then they open up the ballot envelope. Then they look for two sets of initials on there to make sure it's been validated.

Then they separate those out, they commingle them. Then they come over to a scanning team. We match them up to the report, make sure that our numbers match. If you have 25 ballots, you have 25 returns and so forth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had the most excitement here in Lake County since 1964. And we had a chance to shine. And we had a flaw in it. And unfortunately, it was -- it went all over the nation. And now we have to live with that until we can rectify it.

ROESGEN: Elections officials also told us that as soon as they realized that everybody out here was waiting for their results in there, they stopped counting the absentee ballots and went back to doing the precinct tallies, which took much less time. In fact, it took them until 5:00 a.m. this morning, a full 24 hours, to count all the absentee ballots in.

In the end, results showed that this county went overwhelmingly for Senator Obama. But the state of Indiana was a barely-get-by win for Senator Clinton.

Susan Roesgen, CNN, Lake County, Indiana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Let's get a overall look now. Here is where we stand in the delegate race. By CNN's estimate, Barack Obama now has 1,842 delegates. Hillary Clinton, 1,686. Obama is 183 delegates short of the 2,025 needed to win the nomination.

Up next is the West Virginia primary. That is next Tuesday, where 28 Democratic delegates are up for grabs there.

LEMON: All right. All the latest campaign news of course right at your fingertips. Just go to cnnpolitics.com. We also have analysis from the best political team on television. It's all there, cnnpolitics.com.

KEILAR: A police beating caught on tape. Does the video of a violent arrest tell the whole story of what happened? We'll go in depth ahead in the NEWSROOM.

And as many as 100,000 people dead after that devastating cyclone in Myanmar. Now the United Nations has a message for the leaders of that country -- let the rest of the world in to help the victims.

We'll have a live report straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: These words from the top diplomat, the top U.S. diplomat in Myanmar -- increasingly horrendous. Talking about the food shortage, the very real risk of disease, and the awful news that more than 100,000 people may have died in the powerful storm that slammed the country just four days ago. It's one country's misery, but a world is responding to this.

And CNN's Richard Roth is our senior United Nations correspondent, and he joins us to tell us how the world is responding.

Go ahead, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can talk about the political side of this. And there's some who are responding and others are -- well, they're saying hold on. At the United Nations, power politics playing out, despite the devastation of that cyclone.

France formally proposed that the U.N. Security Council urge Myanmar to let in more international aid, more aid workers, speed up the Visa process, because that's not happening and people are trying to survive out there, and the aid is just not getting there in time. However, China and other countries on the Security Council think this is not the time for the Security Council to speak out like this.

The U.N. high command trying to give Myanmar some time, though this highly-secretive nation is very concerned about getting any pressure from the outside world. The U.N.'s humanitarian chief walking a tight diplomatic line and appealing for assistance for Myanmar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN HOLMES, U.N. HUMANITARIAN CHIEF: There are many problems there, and I'm not trying to deny there aren't problems. There are problems. What I'm saying is, from the base from which we started and for which they might have refused all international assistance, might have refused a dialogue, might have refused to give out any casualty figures, might have refused the idea of a flash appeal, might have said in a blanket way, no international workers will be allowed in, they've not said that. I think it's from a low base. We've made some progress, but we need to go a lot further and a lot faster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The United Nations will issue what it calls a flash appeal on Friday. As yet, an undetermined amount of dollars will be sought.

There are 24 or so countries that have made pledges to the U.N., saying they are ready to send this aid in. It's just that they're not getting the cooperation of Myanmar to get it in. Six other countries have made unspecified proposals so far.

Don, the United Nations is in a very tricky spot here. Again, one of its own members not opening its borders and opening its arms to international assistance. In the past, the U.N. says Iran, Pakistan, other sometimes controversial issues, have opened themselves up, have not delayed as much as Myanmar has so far -- Don.

LEMON: Senior United Nations Correspondent Richard Roth. Thank you, Richard.

KEILAR: A chaotic scene. A police beating on the streets of Philadelphia. But does it tell the whole story?

We will investigate in the NEWSROOM.

(BUSINESS REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CHIEF TECHNOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hubie Van Meurs is taking a lot of pressure off the folks in Levittown, New York.

HUBIE VAN MEURS, ALURE ENERGY: If all the other windows and doors close, we can find out how leaky the house is.

O'BRIEN: He's plugging leaks and insulating attics all over this Long Island town, where the sprawling of America began more than 60 years ago. Levittown is the country's first planned suburb.

TOM SUOZZI, NASSAU COUNTY EXECUTIVE: We thought it made history back in the 1940s and we could make history again, to be the first suburban community to go green.

O'BRIEN: Nassau County executive Tom Suozzi launched the campaign to encourage everyone in Levittown, 17,000 homes, 52,000 people, to do something green: from changing light bulbs, to installing a new furnace.

Several local companies have ponied up special deals and financing. Just about every household is taking part.

Levittown homeowner Tom Lasusa found the program easy to love.

TOM LASUSA, LEVITTOWN RESIDENT: Whatever little bit will help us and whatever little bit will help the environment.

SUOZZI: We think if you can do it in Levittown, you can do it anywhere.

O'BRIEN: Could be this place is still a trend setter after all these years.

Miles O'Brien, CNN, Levittown, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Checking our political ticker now, Barack Obama is in striking distance of wrapping up the Democratic nomination. The latest CNN estimate gives him 1,842 delegates, and by our count, Hillary Clinton has 1,686. The magic number, of course, remains 2,025.

LEMON: Republican John McCain is in Michigan today promoting tax cuts and job training to mitigate the loss of factory jobs. He was asked once again about his reputation for having a temper. He admits he gets frustrated with Washington and says he's not alone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I get angry when I see corruption to the point where we have former members of Congress residing in federal prison.

And you know something? The American people are angry, too, and they're not going to take it anymore. And that's why they want change. And they're mad. And they've lost their temper.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Barack Obama's former pastor apparently did figure into yesterday's voting. Exit polls in both Indiana and North Carolina show 48 percent of Democrats said the Jeremiah Wright controversy was an important factor in how they cast their ballots. Forty-nine percent of Indiana Democrats and 50 percent of North Carolinians said it was not.

LEMON: OK. Well, political conventions long ago became coronations: sanitized, scripted, utterly devoid of any suspense. Now we face the possibility, however slim, that a convention might actually decide the nomination, just like in the old days.

CNN special correspondent Frank Sesno takes a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, North Carolina!

FRANK SESNO, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What a mess it would be.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Indiana!

SESNO: Not a brokered convention, but a contested convention. Think Carter/Kennedy in 1980 when young Teddy took on incumbent Jimmy. The Kennedy forces challenged the rules, picked dozens of fights, trying to sway the delegates. Would this year's convention be as divisive and unpredictable?

TAD DEVINE, 1980 CARTER CAMPAIGN: The highest authority in the Democratic Party is the national convention, meeting en masse. When that convention gets together under one roof, that convention can do what it wants.

SESNO: From the credentials committee that approves delegations to the rules and platform committees, they could all be battlegrounds.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Delegates, alternates, honored guests.

SESNO: On day one in Denver, the very first fight could be whether to ratify or reject the contested Michigan and Florida delegations. The outcome could tip the balance.

But fights could go on, in the platform committee, for example, to flex muscle and force debate onto the convention floor. Those prime-time TV speeches could get pushed aside by angry debates over procedure and politics.

DEVINE: You try to go out and demonstrate that you control the floor of the convention, that those delegates on that convention floor will support you.

SESNO: It will be hard ball for any wavering super delegates for sure. But even the pledged delegates are, by party rule, bound only by good conscience. So they could flip or abstain if they decided, say, that Obama couldn't win or that Clinton was a danger to party unity.

Emotional issues of race, gender, party disunity, a made-for-TV spectacular. If all else fails, someone else could even offer to run. Now, who might that be?

(on camera) Whatever happens in Denver, experienced convention hands say the jockeying and the bad blood could begin well before convention time. Throughout the summer candidate forces will be lobbying and cajoling trying to gain control of those key committees.

Frank Sesno, CNN, Washington. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Just into the CNN NEWSROOM right now, we understand that a suspect has been shot and killed at the St. Peter -- or pardon me the Pinellas -- pardon me. Let's get this right here, folks. At the St. Petersburg courthouse in St. Petersburg, Florida.

Also a sheriff's deputy, a sheriff's deputy with the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office, transported to a local medical center. The deputy appears to have sustained an injury, possibly from flying debris.

But what we know from the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office is that they were investigating the situation. A deputy involved shooting at this courthouse. What we've learned is that an armed suspect was shot by a bailiff there near the entrance to the courthouse.

So we're trying to figure out exactly how all of the players worked here: if the deputy was standing nearby, if the deputy is the bailiff. We're trying to get all of that information.

But again, a suspect has been shot and killed at the St. Petersburg courthouse in Florida, and a sheriff's deputy in the hospital for injuries during that. We're going to bring you details as soon as they come in.

LEMON: Just to illustrate the dangers that -- Brianna, that police officers face, we're going to go deeper inside a story that has really garnered a lot of the country's attention today.

More than a dozen police officers could be pulled off the streets -- we're talking about Philadelphia -- after a beating Monday night that was caught on camera.

Now, this is what we can show you from this video. Take a close look at this. Officers pulling three men out of the vehicle. Some hold the suspects down while others kick, punch and beat them.

The mayor's spokesman says -- here's what it says. Police were investigating a triple shooting at the time, and warns against prejudging anybody. We want to know everything that was taking place before all of this. We don't know exactly what was happening here.

And that's just it. While the video, while it looks explicit, we don't know what happened before police surrounded that car.

We want to bring in now, Lou Palumbo. He has been in hairy situations himself. He's a former New York City police officer, New York -- investigator, I should say. And now he is a security specialist.

And we thank you for joining us today on this, on what is a very touchy subject when it comes to, you know, exactly how civilians are treated and to police officers. So again, thanks for joining us today. LOU PALUMBO, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE OFFICER: My pleasure.

LEMON: We don't know -- before we even get to this video, we don't know exactly what happened here, Mr. Palumbo. So we can only sort of guess from the video. It does look, you know, insinuating from -- on the police officers' end, but talk to me about -- say your piece real quick before we get to this video.

PALUMBO: Well, obviously, there are some perception issues right out of the gate, and I would say training issues. The thing I think we need to be mindful of is that the Philadelphia Police Department a few days ago lost one of its members.

And as you mentioned yourself, we need to conduct an investigation to find out what precipitated this contact between these three gentlemen and this group of law enforcement agents.

LEMON: Yes. And this is the police officer that lost his life and that they were looking for. And they didn't know, again, exactly what's exactly going on.

All right. So let's take a look at the video now. We want -- because we want to add more context to this, Mr. Palumbo. Let's get the video up here, and I want you to see this.

Look at this. We see one suspect get out of the car. Two suspects are at least pulled out of the car and then three. So stop it right here for me, Scotty.

All right. So this guy gets out of the car, and then -- or is pulled out of the car. And it appears that they sort of have him under control. And then the second guy gets out of the car, as well. It appears they have him under control. And then we have a third guy over here, Mr. Palumbo, who gets out of the car.

But even when these guys are on the ground here, and we're looking at it, we can look at it -- why here, if you look at all of these, why then does it appear that they continue to pummel these guys?

PALUMBO: I'm going to say to you that there's a lot of emotion that drives these types of apprehension. As you indicated earlier, and I stated to re-enforce what you said, we have to find out what was the nexus to this whole intervention here? They may have chased these individuals for numerous blocks. I heard a rumor that they were possibly involved in the shooting.

I'm only going to tell you that, having been in this position, there's a tremendous amount of emotion that drives through you. And when you get involved in situations where you're taking people into custody and they resist you, you know, sometimes, you know, you individually are reacting to that individual without realizing, simultaneously, other people are, as well.

So, you know, to synopsize this, obviously, there is a perception issue with this apprehension. LEMON: Yes.

PALUMBO: But there also needs to be an investigation to find out exactly what drove this, in fairness to the police.

LEMON: You do have to admit that -- I mean, just judging from the video -- and again, we don't know what's going on here -- from a civilian's eye, this does look pretty -- it looks pretty bad.

And again, this is -- I remember, I was living in Philadelphia, I believe it's 2000, 2001. Same sort of video, same sort of caught-on- tape video from a suspect in this. And everyone thought, you know, the police were going to be at fault here, and as it turns out, they weren't.

PALUMBO: But you know, the thing I do want to speak to is we recently had an incident with the Philadelphia -- I mean, excuse me, the Phoenix, Arizona, Police Department where three of their law enforcement agents took into custody a woman who clearly was emotionally disturbed, whether it was induced by alcohol or whatever it was.

It's very easy to sit there and predetermine that we're using excessive force. I think, as we found out with Arizona, there are other factors drawn here.

And quite candidly, I'm not going to side-step this with you. There are training issues here.

LEMON: OK.

PALUMBO: They do not teach us to kick or stomp people we're taking into custody, period.

LEMON: You're saying that. You're saying they don't teach you that, but again if we can roll this, because I want to show this. You said those training procedures don't, but it is clear here, and I'll step out -- it is clear that they are kicking and stomping this.

Again, don't know what's happened. It's far away. But it appears, Mr. Palumbo, that they are kicking and stomping these suspects, which we are told from our affiliates there, all of them are African-American.

PALUMBO: Well, I can't arbitrate that with you, because the film speaks for itself. But again, that goes back to the training issue, quite frankly.

LEMON: Lou Palumbo, thank you for adding context. We really appreciate that.

And Scotty, before we go, do we have that -- the picture of that officer? Do we have that somewhere? Can we get him? OK. If we can get him -- thank you, sir. Because we want to honor that officer.

All of this started, of course, what precipitated this, Officer Steven Liczbinski, he was shot and killed two days before the arrest. And that's really what precipitated this. And we should honor that officer, because every day they put their lives on the line here.

Now, let's move on. So this incident in Philadelphia raises the bigger question of police stops and particularly police stops of people of color. Let's take a look at some of the numbers from another large city, and that's New York City.

According to the New York City Police Department, in the first quarter of this year -- this is a new report, by the way -- there were more than 145 police stops. A little more than 50 percent of the people stopped were black, but blacks make up only about a quarter of the city's population.

Here's the question: are blacks being unfairly singled out or targeted by police? We'll talk about it right after the break with professor -- Professor David Harris. He's an expert on police and racial profiling. We're calling it "Black in America."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. We've been talking here about the police beatings of three suspects in Philadelphia. We don't know the whole story. We want to make that clear. We don't know the whole story.

The police department, the mayor's office and the district attorney are piecing it all together, and they're urging people to be calm. But it does raise more questions about how police treat one segment of society.

In connection with our "Black in America" series, a CNN/"Essence Magazine"/Opinion Research poll asked blacks and whites a number of questions about a number of issues, including racism against blacks by police.

Now, in our poll, 48 percent of blacks said it's very common. It's very common. Thirty-three percent said it's fairly common. Forty-one percent of whites said racism against blacks by police is fairly common.

So let's go to Toledo, Ohio, for a little bit more perspective on this, and Professor David Harris. He's an expert on police and racial profiling.

You've seen these numbers here, about the poll that we took with "Essence Magazine's" -- "Essence Magazine" here. So you've seen the numbers. And it appears there seems to be two different worlds among blacks and whites about how blacks are treated by police.

DAVID HARRIS, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH SCHOOL OF LAW: Well, there are two different worlds in those terms.

You know, in all of my research, I interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people, black and white and Latino. And I never met a single African-American male, and many women too, who had not had some kind of unfortunate experience with the police: themselves or a brother, father or sister. It's a universal among blacks.

I wouldn't call it racism, myself, because I don't believe any but a small number of police are actually motivated by racism.

LEMON: Then what would you call it?

HARRIS: I would say it -- I would say it's a way that blacks are treated by the police because some police -- not all, but some -- and many Americans outside of police forces, tend to believe that blacks are more dangerous than whites.

This is a deeply embedded cultural belief. It is not something that is on the surface. Most people wouldn't tell you that they believe this, but that's what's operating here.

And the result is that police officers, whether they are black or white, often search, question, stop and treat poorly people of color more often, more quickly, than whites. That's a fact. That's what the numbers say.

LEMON: And you bring up a very good point and something that I was going to ask you about. Because in a number of these cases, including the Sean Bell case, the case that we're seeing in Philadelphia, some of the officers are actually black.

So I wonder if it's training from society, is it training in the police academy? Is it something that's bred into us? Why is it that blacks, especially black men, are seen as more of a threat by police officers? That's what you're saying, correct?

HARRIS: Yes, I am saying that, and that is a very deeply- embedded cultural belief. And research from all kinds of researchers from all kinds of universities and think tanks have substantiated this over and over, over the last 10, 20, 30 years.

What we're dealing with is a feeling that is embedded in our culture when people see news media, when they read things, when they talk to each other, that there is a greater dangerousness when dealing with black Americans. And that pervades our whole population.

And it's no surprise that police officers have those beliefs, just like the rest of us. Police officers are not different than the rest of us. They are more or less the same as the rest of us.

So when police officers, whether they are black, white or Latino, when they are in these situations, they have to react quickly. They are -- they are reacting to a whole variety of stimuli.

LEMON: Professor...

HARRIS: What happens is that judgment rushes to the front of the mind, and sometimes the result is something tragic like Sean Bell.

LEMON: OK. I want -- I want to jump in here, because we're running out of time, and you know, we've been dealing with, especially just in the last couple of weeks, this whole Sean Bell case. And I just recently had a conversation with the Reverend Al Sharpton about that. Of course, he has been protesting in New York. We want to make it clear here: there's been some concern about Reverend Al Sharpton doesn't speak for all African-Americans, but he has been sort of at the forefront of this protest of what's been going on in the Sean Bell case and the police officers. And he's sort of mirroring exactly what you're saying in an interview I had with him just yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: We are stopped at a disproportionate number. We're arrested at a disproportionate number. And now they're emboldened to do more harm to us at a disproportionate number.

That's why we must ask the federal government to come in, as they have other cities, and deal with policing in New York. How can you just accept that, if we're not the majority of the people in the city of New York, we're the majority of the people stopped and arrested in the city without saying, "Wait a minute, there's something wrong here"?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So you've got, Professor Harris, the Sean Bell case. You have the Philadelphia incident, which is somewhat similar in the video aspect of this. You've got Amado Diallo. And then you've also got the Neal Street shooting which happened with an elderly woman here in Atlanta a couple of months back.

HARRIS: Yes, that's right.

LEMON: Do you agree with what Reverend Sharpton said as he sits with the fiancee of Sean Bell?

HARRIS: Well, what I would say is it's true: the numbers show that in New York and many other places, blacks are stopped, Latinos are stopped in numbers that are disproportionate to their presence in the population, whether walking or driving.

The question is: is there any good reason for that? What the numbers from New York show us is that, although police stop many more, disproportionately more blacks, they actually arrest and find evidence on them less often than comparably-situated whites.

Nevertheless, the numbers keep going up every year. In 19 -- in 2002, we had about 100 police stops and frisks in New York City. Now we're getting close to 600,000 a year. Now that is a jump of almost six times in a period in which during crime has been going not up, but down.

Now what that tells you is that this tactic of stop and frisk is an important one for police, but they're over-relying on it.

LEMON: OK. HARRIS: And what that does is it carries a price.

LEMON: Right.

HARRIS: The price is that, in terms of perception and community belief and cooperation with police, those black people and Latino people who have crime in their neighborhoods are going to be less inclined to trust the police, because they feel that this is not being done for them; it's being done to them.

LEMON: All right. Professor David Harris, we appreciate your perspective. Thank you so much. Very interesting conversation.

HARRIS: My pleasure.

LEMON: Could talk about it forever, but thank you for joining us, again, here on the CNN NEWSROOM today.

HARRIS: Certainly.

LEMON: And of course, CNN will continue to go beyond the headlines in our unparalleled television event, "Black in America." Don't miss this ground-breaking documentary. It's coming this July 23 and 24 on CNN worldwide -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Thanks, Don.

Well, check out this story: a massive sinkhole, monster sinkhole in a small town in Texas causing some major problems there. Just how big? Well, two football fields. That's how big. And we're going to have some details coming up in just a moment.

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KEILAR: We've got some new video into the CNN NEWSROOM to show you, this coming to us from KHOU in Daisetta, Texas. That's where this video is taken.

You're looking at cracks in the ground. This is part of a gigantic sinkhole. A huge sinkhole there. How big? It's the size of two football fields. It's causing quite a bit of excitement there in Liberty County.

And this is a long crater that appeared to be several feet deep and actually full of water. When you get a little closer, you can see there's some water there. There were several smaller cracks in this crater that ran near a road.

There are emergency crews, utility crews on scene. No word if there are any injuries. But again, this is a massive sinkhole, the size of two football fields, in Daisetta, Texas. We're going to continue to monitor this to you, bring you any developments, if there are any.

LEMON: Two football fields? That's more than massive. My goodness. KEILAR: Huge.

LEMON: Yes. We'll be following that one, of course.

And look at this. We've been reporting on this devastation and destruction all day. It is in Myanmar. The number of dead is staggering. And the survivors are hungry, and they need help.

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