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Nancy Grace

Human Remains Found off Interstate in Huntsville, Alabama

Aired May 07, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Human remains found in a wooded area. City contractors conducting routine surveying in a newly annexed area near the county line. The bones discovered in dense vegetation, estimated 200 yards from busy Interstate-565. As we go to air, we are waiting for identification on those remains, crime scene investigators and the county coroner combing the scene for clues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just learning about human remains discovered off I-565 in Huntsville, Alabama, the bones found in dense vegetation by city contractors on a routine land survey in Limestone County, the remains now at the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences for testing. Who is it? And more important, is the discovery connected to murder?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history, 464 children, 100 women rescued from an isolated Texas compound, this after reports of systematic marriages and childbirths forced on girls as young as 13, physical and sex abuse of boys on the compound, plus 41 known children with broken bones.

Headlines tonight: All indicators DNA taken from compound members will be used for criminal prosecution. At this hour, the state`s attorney general now named to prosecute criminal charges. State`s exhibit number one, an underage FLDS girl giving birth just days ago. Number two, reams of hand-written records discovered in a secret safe hidden in a limestone temple deep within the compound, documenting up to 21 wives per husband and multiple teenage wives. After Utah attorney general comes out and announces he will not prosecute bigamy charges, prosecutors from Utah and Arizona join forces as the Lone Star State alone heads to legal battle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allegations of broken bones, underage marriages and pregnancies and child sex abuse. Now members of the FLDS polygamist sect could soon be facing criminal charges, a judge ordering the Texas attorney general`s office to handle all criminal prosecutions. But many questions still swirl. Will the FLDS members be prosecuted for bigamy? What about the investigation into 41 cases of past broken bones? And how far have investigators gotten into allegations of male child sex abuse? Now that the attorney general`s office has the case, will we soon get answers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The complaint that the state has is that they thought these children were in danger of being forced into marriage at ages 16 and younger, the girls in particular, and that`s why they moved in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you saying that...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No force. No force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But do women age 16 and younger marry out here? Is that common?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just want the children back. That`s all we`re talking about tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a little disappointed in America, pretty much. I mean, I just can`t believe this could happen in a free country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Human remains found in a wooded area just 200 yards from busy Interstate-565, crime scene investigators and the county coroner combing the area as we wait for an ID.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were just looking for a site for a potential water pumping station in Huntsville, Alabama`s, Limestone County. But instead, city contractors make an unexpected and grisly discovery just a half mile from busy Interstate-565, human remains in the woods. Reports say the remains are not a full skeleton, but there are enough bones to definitely ID them as human. A crime scene unit investigating, age and gender still unknown. But one thing for sure, it`s an eerie sight, leaving many unanswered questions tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Niki Doyle, reporter with "The Huntsville Times." Hi, Niki. What is the latest?

NIKI DOYLE, "HUNTSVILLE TIMES": We haven`t heard anything much today, Nancy. As of late yesterday, they hadn`t determined yet the gender or the age of the person. Police aren`t saying a whole lot right now.

GRACE: With me right now is Diane France, forensic anthropologist and director of human identification lab at Colorado State University. To Diane. Diane, how do you go about making an ID on bones such as these?

DIANE FRANCE, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, it sounds as though that they`ve already determined that it`s human. You don`t need very many bones, actually, to be able to determine whether or not it`s human. But after that, it depends on which bones you have available to you. If you have even a half-dollar-sized bone in the front of the pelvic girdle, then you can determine something about the age of the individual, the sex of the individual. And by the way, it`s sex determination in a skeleton and not gender. Gender is more of a social construct.

And if you have the cranium, you can determine a lot about the ancestry of the individual. You can determine something about age and sex, as well. We can determine quite a lot about the stature of the individual, if you have a long bone. We can determine circumstances surrounding death, if the evidence is there, so...

GRACE: With me is Diane France, a forensic anthropologist. Diane, what bones would you need to determine sex of skeletal remains?

FRANCE: The best area for determining sex in the skeleton is in the pelvic girdle. And the best area in the pelvic girdle is in the very front of the pelvic girdle, in the pubic bone. If you have the right bone, if you have the right area of that bone, you can determine sex 95, 96 percent accuracy.

GRACE: So you say just the pelvic bone alone is enough to determine sex of skeletal remains?

FRANCE: Even a half-dollar-size piece of bone in the front of the pelvic girdle, you can very often determine the sex of the individual, yes.

GRACE: What would be the difference between male and female bones in that area?

FRANCE: Well, the entire pelvic girdle, of course, is different in males and females because in the male, you don`t have to worry about childbirth. And so the pelvic girdle in general is much narrower. It has a narrower and smaller pelvic outlet. The front of the pubic bones are narrower. They are more triangular in shape.

It`d be nice if I had a diagram I could show you, but basically, the female pelvic girdle is wider. It`s wider at the front and it`s wider -- the sacrum or the back of the pelvic girdle is away from the pelvic outlet, and all of that just gives more room for the passage, of course, of the infant through the birth canal. So everything that is different between males and females in the pelvic girdle really has to do with that.

GRACE: Everyone, breaking news tonight. Human remains have been found off of busy Interstate-565. The corner and the crime scene investigators have been at the scene, combing it for clues. We are waiting on an identification.

Back to Niki Doyle, reporter with "The Huntsville Times." Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Niki, do we know what bones were discovered? Do we know is there a leg bone? Do we know if a cranium has been found, a pelvic bone? Do we know any of that yet?

DOYLE: Police have not said yet. We asked them if they had found a full skeleton, and they wouldn`t say. I believe they found enough to determine that they do have a pretty good amount of a body, but at this point, we do not know exactly what they found. Police radio traffic indicated that they may have found scraps of clothing in the area, but we cannot get the police to confirm that as of late yesterday.

GRACE: To Vince Velazguez, homicide detective and hostage negotiator. Vince, thank you for being with us. Vince, if they have found almost an entire skeleton and they have actually found fragments of clothing, there`s a pretty good chance they`re going to ID these remains.

VINCE VELAZGUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE AND HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: They should be able to, Nancy. I think what they`re going to do is start looking at the missing persons reports. And the pieces of bone that are missing could actually be explained by animal activity. The bones that are missing could be -- could have been taken off by other animals, wolves, depending on what`s in the area.

GRACE: Exactly. Out to the lines. Ayasha in Wisconsin. Hi, Ayasha.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I just love your show. And your kids are so adorable.

GRACE: Thank you very much, and thank you for calling in, Ayasha. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if the remains, if it`s an adult or a child?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Niki Doyle with "The Huntsville Times." I have been led to believe that it is an adult. What about you, Niki?

DOYLE: They have not said yet. They`re being very tight-lipped about it, and I believe it`s because they`re not sure, just from looking at the remains, if it was -- if any foul play was involved, or if it was accidental. And I know they`re concerned about upsetting any family that might have missing relatives or friends.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Christine in Texas. Hi, Christine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I want to know is how can naive a person that wanted to kill somebody -- why would they just leave it somewhere where eventually, it`s going to be found?

GRACE: Excellent question. Back to you, Vince. I can`t tell you how many times we have had cases -- well, we`ve had cases where the body has been hidden very, very well, like in what I believe, the Stacy Peterson case. We had recently a torso found at the bottom of a pond. But the reality -- and that killer actually took the time to hide the rest of the body somewhere else. But the reality is, Vince, killers are often very sloppy. And let me say, they`re in a little bit of a hurry to get rid of the evidence. They don`t always do the best job in disposing of the bodies.

VELAZGUEZ: That`s absolutely right. And this is more of an unorganized crime scene. It`s about 200 yards off of the interstate. Probably in the dark of night, the body was taken there. Two hundred yards is a good amount of distance away from vehicular traffic. He was in a hurry, or they were in a hurry to get rid of this body. They could have buried it, but they would have spent more time. Probably no one ever would have found it. So it`s unorganized. It`s something that was done rather quickly in order to dispose of the evidence.

GRACE: That leads me to my next question. Back to Niki Doyle. Niki joining us from "The Huntsville Times." Niki, do we know if the body was buried? Was it hidden in any way? Were the bones scattered about? It seems to me if the entire skeleton, almost the entire skeleton, has been reassembled, the bones were not scattered about too badly.

DOYLE: Right. Well, we haven`t heard too much about it. I can say that I don`t believe they were buried. It`s something the surveying crew was able to see in this area. Like the reports have said, heavily wooded. There`s very thick underbrush in that area, and it would be difficult for them to find something that someone had attempted to bury.

GRACE: Breaking news tonight. A body -- remains of a body -- have been found off busy interstate I-565. We are waiting to determine the identification on that.

To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner. At this juncture, I`ve been led to believe that there is little or no soft tissue left whatsoever. But two questions. Number one, if there is hair and you have a nucleus, a root of a hair, how long can you still get mitochondrial DNA from the root of the hair? And two, if we`ve got a full set of teeth, can`t we make an ID through a dental impression?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: OK. Let`s take question number one. Before I would go with hair, I would probably take bone marrow first for DNA. Again, you might get nuclear DNA, but as time goes on, that tends to degrade. So therefore, people often will use mitochondrial DNA, which is smaller and less likely to degrade. Now, the second question...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. How long can you still get the root -- the mitochondrial DNA from the root, from the hair?

BELL: Well, again, it -- that`s hard to say. Again, it depends upon a lot of things, including how -- the temperature, how much it`s degraded, how much -- or in other words, how much it`s broken up.

GRACE: OK.

BELL: And the second question again was?

GRACE: Regarding dental impressions. If you can`t get DNA, if you can`t get DNA, nuclear DNA from the bone marrow, you can`t get mitochondrial DNA from the root of the hair, the nucleus of the hair, what about a dental impression? That`s, in my mind, just as good as a DNA match.

BELL: Well, again, first of all, they usually go with dental comparisons first before DNA. And those are only good if you have an idea as to who the person might be. If it`s a person -- if you don`t know who it is, you have no clue as to who this person might be, you can`t do a comparison.

GRACE: And to Niki Doyle with "The Huntsville Times." What about missing people in the area? Are police and detectives already comparing what they know about these skeletal remains to missing people in the area?

DOYLE: If they are, they`re not saying yet. We`ve talked about it a little among ourselves and we had some ideas, but none of those seemed to make sense. People do go missing around here sometimes and no one ever hears about it -- you know, children who run away. There`s all kinds of circumstances where we wouldn`t know if people were missing. And I`m sure they are looking at that, but at the same time, in an area like that, they could have been from either Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, or Georgia even.

GRACE: Out to the lines. David in Tennessee. Hi, David.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say you have the best show on TV.

GRACE: David, thank you very much for watching, and even more for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to know, are they going to contact a forensic bone specialist, like Dr. Bass (ph) in Knoxville, that could tell them more about what these bones are?

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell. Let`s talk about that very quickly. What would a forensic bone specialist add to the mix?

BELL: Well, in cases like this, where we have skeletal remains, I would always send it to a forensic anthropologist. And usually, it`s somebody that I work with on a regular basis. And they`re specialists in that type of area.

GRACE: But what can they tell me -- for instance, Diane France is with us. She`s a forensic anthropologist. What can she tell me, in answer to David in Tennessee`s question, that a medical examiner can`t tell me?

BELL: Well, they would have -- they would be the final word with regard to age, race, sex, height or stature, and if there are any injuries or trauma to the bones.

GRACE: Got it. Got it. To Diane France, exactly who David in Tennessee and Dr. Michael Bell are referring to -- Diane France, forensic anthropologist. Diane, again, thank you for being with us.

Everyone, we are discussing breaking news, human remains found off busy Interstate-565. We have little information right now, but we do know the crime scene unit and the coroner have both been at the scene, combing it for clues.

Diane, how can you tell with skeletal remains if there was a murder?

FRANCE: It depends a lot on the context. It depends as much as it does on the trauma or some kind of evidence on the skeleton itself. Obviously, if somebody -- if the skeleton is discovered 200 yards off of a major freeway, you have to be suspecting murder/homicide in the first place.

But a forensic anthropologist -- to answer some of the other questions, what could a forensic anthropologist tell you that a pathologist couldn`t? A pathologist, for the most part, deals with soft tissue. And soft tissue, of course, would be the first thing that you would look at for any kind of vital injuries. But if you have a forensic anthropologist, then we have to get rid of the soft tissue. The soft tissue is in our way. We get rid of the soft tissue and look at the bones for any kind of trauma or circumstances surrounding death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a half mile from busy Interstate-565, human remains in the woods. Reports say the remains are not a full skeleton, but there are enough bones to definitely ID them as human.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Huntsville police say human remains found in a wooded area near Interstate-565. City contractors found the bones in dense vegetation about 200 yards from the roadway. The county coroner is at the site, and the remains are now being examined by Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences. Tonight, whose bones are they?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The bones found just 200 yards from a busy interstate. Right now, no idea, no inclination or discussion from the police who the bones belong to, whose these remains are. All we know, that now nearly a full skeleton reassembled, and possibly material from clothing found at the scene, as well. It was a complete fluke the body was ever discovered, surveyors out surveying a newly annexed portion near the county line.

Out to the lines. Shondra in Indiana. Hi, Shondra.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know who would be able to tell us how long this body has been here, since it`s only remains, if it`s been months, years? How are they going to find out how old the remains are?

GRACE: Back to Diane France, forensic anthropologist. Diane, can you look at bones or run a test, maybe a C-14? I don`t know. I`m just a lawyer. Can you determine the age of bones?

FRANCE: Well, First of all, you would not use a C-14 test because a C-14 test gives you a plus or minus about 500 years.

GRACE: Whoa! That won`t help.

FRANCE: That won`t help very much in a situation like this. And it really depends a lot on the micro-environment and the general environment - - the climate, the rainfall, whether or not this individual was clothed, whether or not this individual was covered with anything, any kind of brush...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So will they be able to age the bones, do you think, Diane?

FRANCE: I think that you can come up with a pretty good idea with all of those different variables accounted for, yes. I think you can -- and I`ll tell you, the very best way to do it, though, in this situation would be to collect a lot of the insects and then to try to run the analysis on the insects. The insects will tell you a much tighter (INAUDIBLE) timeframe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A crime scene unit investigating, age and gender still unknown. But one thing`s for sure, it`s an eerie sight, leaving many unanswered questions tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just learning about human remains discovered off I-565 in Huntsville, Alabama, the bones found in dense vegetation by city contractors on a routine land survey in Limestone County, the remains now at the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences for testing. Who is it? And more important, is the discovery connected to murder?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Human remains found off a busy thoroughfare, Interstate-565. Breaking news as to the fact the skeleton now possibly almost entirely reassembled. We still don`t have an ID on that.

Out to the lines. Dorris in Minnesota. Hi, Dorris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just wanted to know if they think that possibly it could be Stacy Peterson. Because didn`t Drew have access to a plane and a pilot`s license, and his lawyers say that Stacy Peterson would never be found?

GRACE: Out to Renee Rockwell, Jason Oshins. We`ve all covered the Peterson case repeatedly. To Renee Rockwell. She is right about access to a private plane.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, this is obviously someone that was supposed to be well hidden, right? So what these experts are going to be doing, the forensic experts are going to be looking at whatever may be in this person`s fingers. Maybe there`s hair. Maybe under the nails there`s some kind of DNA. It`s going to be a feast for (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: To Jason Oshins. It is not unheard of for bodies to be buried many states away.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no doubt, Nancy. But look, the proximity the body was found to the road, the fact that it was, you know, certainly able for the surveyors to see in sort of plain sight, that`s not a well-planned action, as the detective said. That`s opportunistic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They were just looking for a site for a potential water pumping station in Huntsville, Alabama`s Limestone County. But instead, city contractors make an unexpected and grisly discovery. Just a half mile from busy Interstate 565, human remains in the woods.

Reports say the remains are not a full skeleton, but there are enough bones to definitely ID them as human. A crime scene unit investigating, age and gender still unknown. But one thing`s for sure, it`s an eerie sight, leaving many unanswered questions tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Niki Doyle with "The Huntsville Times."

Niki, what type of area is it? How busy is the interstate along that stretch?

NIKI DOYLE, REPORTER, THE HUNTSVILLE TIMES: It`s quite busy. Usually there`s a three-hour stretch during the day where traffic is bumper to bumper and also running parallel to that interstate is old Alabama Highway 20. And it`s pretty busy as well. But the area is heavily wooded again. I don`t imagine anyone could possibly see anything from those roadways.

GRACE: So 200 yards. That`s a good distance off the roadway.

And Niki, you`re telling us, your information as of right now is that the body was not buried or hidden anyway, other than being taken far away from the roadway?

DOYLE: As far as I know, again, like I said, it`s such a thick area that I don`t see how any crew could possibly find it unless it was on the top of the ground, you know, with only a little bit of covering, maybe a little (INAUDIBLE) leaves.

GRACE: Out to the lanes. R.J. in New Jersey. Hi, R.J.

R.J., NEW JERSEY RESIDENT: Hello, Nancy. My question is, I would like to know, how they know for certain that it is a human body.

GRACE: Excellent question.

Niki Doyle, joining us from "The Huntsville Times," have they revealed what they know? You mentioned some material was found also? Was it possible that the material was on some of the bones?

DOYLE: The police haven`t specified that. I know that it took them two hours to confess and actually confirm that it was human remains. I know at first when they first responded, they looked into the possibility of it being animal remains. That`s usually the first thing they look at. But from the type of bones they found, and apparently the coroner office confirmed to them, that these were indeed human bones and not animal.

GRACE: And to forensic anthropologist Diane France. I mean, we`re all just lawyers on the panel and we`ve got one psych and you two doctors, but when you see a human skull, you know a human skull. There`s no doubt that you`ve got a human.

DIANE FRANCE, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, DIR. OF HUMAN IDENTIFICATION LAB., COLO. STATE UNIV.: Yes. I mean almost nobody will mistake a human skull for any other species. That`s true.

GRACE: Yes. Well, what about, for instance, an arm or a leg bone?

FRANCE: It just -- the shape of the bone is different in humans than in any other animal. And it should not take somebody very long -- now, I get these cases all the time where somebody will e-mail me a photograph, police, coroners, will e-mail me a photograph and say, is this human? And usually I can tell just at a glance whether or not it`s human. It depends on what kind of training you have, but it shouldn`t be that hard to determine whether...

GRACE: Yeah, I mean, you know, just common sense applied when you see a human skull or a rib cage or a hand. It`s clearly unmistakably human remains.

Out to the line -- go ahead, dear.

FRANCE: And actually, that`s not quite true. Bear remains, if you find a rib cage of a bear, for instance, sometimes it`s really very difficult to determine whether or not it`s human without actually taking the rib cage apart.

GRACE: Really?

FRANCE: .and looking at some -- bears are amazingly similar to humans, especially around in that area. Yes. And a bear foot and a bear paw are very often -- especially if they still have some soft tissue on them, are very often mistaken for human. Yes.

GRACE: Well, you can certainly teach an old dog a new trick, because you just taught me something new, Diane France.

Out to Camelia in Ohio. Hi, Camelia.

CAMELIA, OHIO RESIDENT: Hello.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question? .

CAMELIA: I was wondering, is it possible that the body could have been killed somewhere else and the bones spread there?

GRACE: Excuse me, repeat.

CAMELIA: I was wondering if the body maybe was killed somewhere else, or someone killed the person..

GRACE: Ah, so this was just a disposal.

CAMELIA: Yes.

GRACE: A dumping ground.

To Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of the New York studios. Caryn, what do you think?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think, Nancy, that that would be highly unlikely. I mean that -- that`s the most probable circumstance. What would be highly unlikely would be that someone would actually take someone there and kill them, because even though it`s 200 miles -- I mean, feet away, it`s close enough. So.

GRACE: 200 yards away.

STARK: Yards away.

GRACE: That`s two football fields.

And another thing, Caryn Stark, authorities can only determine at this juncture -- they`re only releasing that the remains are human. But I agree with you, this is a dumping ground. This is not where the murder occurred or where the death occurred. If this is a dumping ground, who would destroy a body like this, in this manner, and leave it in this manner?

STARK: Someone who`s a criminal. Somebody who doesn`t really care because it`s not even buried. So it`s somebody who disregards what these bones mean, what this person means, and just tossed it.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Richie in New York. Hi, Richie.

RICHIE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: How you doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

RICHIE: Hey, listen now, I wouldn`t -- I wasn`t away how far it was from the road, but now -- could it be possible it could have been a hit- and-run?

GRACE: Excellent question. But I`m thinking, to Dr. Michael Bell, you`ve seen plenty of hit-and-runs. That`s quite a distance for a hit-and- run unless there was some animal activity that took the body that far. I find that hard to believe.

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes. The animals aren`t going to drag the body or the bones, rather, 200 yards. So, no, it`s not a hit-and-run.

GRACE: Everyone, a quick break. When we come back, we all knew about the alleged, systematic marriages and childbirth forced on girls as young as 13 and alleged abuse on boys as well at a remote Texas compound. Until now, authorities trying their best to match children to moms and dads through DNA, but tonight step one towards a criminal prosecution.

Also tonight, we salute our troops.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Patricia from Moody Air Force Base, Georgia. I want to say welcome home to my brother, Army Sergeant Butch Eggnor. He just came back from Iraq and I want to say welcome home and I`m glad he`s safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Love you, Uncle Butchie(ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Allegations of broken bones, underage marriages and pregnancies, and child sex abuse. Now members of the FLDS polygamous sect could soon be facing criminal charges. A judge ordering a Texas attorney general`s office to handle all criminal prosecution.

But many questions still swirl. Will the FLDS members be prosecuted for bigamy? What about the investigation into 41 cases of past broken bones? And how far have investigators gotten into allegations of male child sex abuse? Now that the attorney general`s office has the case, will we soon get answers?

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: The next day, my oldest girl saw these other girls going down and so she came to me and says, they`re going to take me, mother, they`re going to take me, don`t let them take me. I don`t want to go. And I just told her, I said, let`s be calm. You`re not going anywhere. You`re right here with me. Let`s be calm.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Step one in criminal prosecutions as they relate to the Yearning for Zion compound there in Texas.

Out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Now we know why so many people skipped town rather than give their DNA, huh?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, yeah, they`re going to face pretty soon the Texas attorney general, the big dogs here in Texas. They`re coming out. They`re going to be part of this prosecution.

GRACE: Joining us tonight, Paul Murphy, spokesperson for the Utah attorney general`s office. Also with us, Flora Jessop, former polygamist and child bride. She is the executive director of Child Protection Project.

To both of you, thank you for being with us. They are joining us outside the polygamy town hall meeting area.

To Paul Murphy, is it true, Paul, that the Utah attorney general announced some time ago that he would not be prosecuting bigamy charges standing alone?

PAUL MURPHY, UTAH AG OFFICE SPOKESPERSON, ORGANIZED ST. GEORGE TOWN HALL MEETING: That`s right. I mean, for 50 years all crimes were ignored in polygamous communities, and when the attorney general Mark Shurtleff took office, he decided that it would be best to go after the most serious crimes. And so our office has been dealing with child abuse, domestic abuse, and fraud, particularly fraud against taxpayers.

We found that it takes as much time and energy to convict someone of polygamy as it does for child abuse, and so we are more concerned about protecting children than what is going on between consenting adults.

GRACE: Well, Paul, since that announcement, how many prosecutions has he handled against the polygamist compounds, and -- as they relate to child molestation, child abuse, and tax fraud?

MURPHY: Well, the truth is that very few victims are willing to come forward, but we`ve had handled several investigations within Utah. The Arizona authorities have also prosecuted and are continuing to prosecute people for child abuse. But what you`re finding is that after 50 years of isolation, of polygamists keeping way from the government and government keeping away from polygamists, you have very few people who are willing to talk to each other, very few people willing to trust each other, and you absolutely need victims to come forward and testify in order to pursue a case.

GRACE: Mr. Murphy, I want to get this straight.

Paul Murphy is joining us. He`s a spokesperson from the Utah attorney general`s office. He`s come right out and announced that they are not prosecuting stand-alone bigamy cases. Now Mr. Murphy has explained, and correct me if I`m paraphrasing this inappropriately, that he thinks it`s best to prosecute other crimes within that community, such as child abuse and tax fraud.

What I didn`t get straight in your answer is, how many of those cases has he actually prosecuted?

MURPHY: Well, when we first started, we helped in the prosecution of Tom Green. He was charged with child rape, bigamy and welfare fraud. We then brought a case against a Hilldale police officer. He was charged with unlawful sex with a minor and bigamy. We then brought a case against another member of a polygamous sect for incest. And we helped in the prosecution of Warren Jeffs, who`s now sitting in jail and faces up to life in prison.

In Arizona, they have -- they have charged more than eight men with -- arranging marriages or participating in marriages with underage girls.

GRACE: But that`s in.

MURPHY: And we`re continuing to investigate.

GRACE: That`s in Arizona. That`s in Arizona.

MURPHY: Right.

GRACE: So all together.

MURPHY: And truth is, is that Utah and Arizona are working hand and hand and we are doing everything we can and when we have an allegation of abuse, we will investigate it, we will prosecute it, we`ll do everything we can. We have not ignored any crimes that involve children within these polygamous communities.

GRACE: OK. Mr. Murphy, I don`t mean to put you on the hot seat, but since the attorney general of your state, which is Utah, and you keep referring to Arizona prosecutions, I`m talking about Utah. Your boss, the attorney general, OK? And don`t get me wrong, I`m a former prosecutor, I`m on your side, OK? But it just seems very odd to me that you make the announcement you`re not going to prosecute stand-alone bigamies, you`re going to concentrate on all these other crimes, and so far, you`ve detailed three and one that you helped with, Warren Jeffs, in another state.

That`s four altogether. Now when you see this Texas raid, and we now learn 41 broken bones. These "Bishop Papers," which I have a copy of right here, detailing teen brides, teen pregnancies, a lot of them relate back to your state. What are you going to do about it?

MURPHY: You know what? When we get a chance to look at the evidence, we will see if any of those crimes took place in Utah and we will prosecute those cases. The fact is, we are trying to do everything we can to protect children. And so we are devoting our resources to protecting children. And this isn`t an announcement that we`re not going to prosecute any bigamy cases. We will prosecute bigamy cases when they relate to other crimes.

GRACE: Well, you know, Mr. Murphy, it`s just, you could use that same analysis when it comes to prostitutes or people shooting up heroin in their veins or cocaine distribution. That`s amongst consenting adults. Bigamy is amongst consenting adults. But it is illegal. So why would your boss announced that he is not going to prosecute stand-alone bigamy cases?

MURPHY: Because the truth is, we`re trying to go after the worst first. And as I said before, it is as difficult to prosecute a polygamy case as it is a child abuse case, and we`re seeing very few victims willing to come forward, and so we`re trying to do everything we can to actually protect people from crimes and then prosecute crimes when we receive enough evidence to go forward and to prosecute.

GRACE: Well, I do agree with you in the aspect that when you`ve got all these wives and none of them want to testify, what are you going do? Put them on the stand and have them dummy up? I mean it`s very difficult to prosecute a case when the alleged "victim" doesn`t want to testify.

I want to go quickly to the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, Jason Oshins. Another point in Murphy`s defense, in the AG`s defense there, and I don`t agree with the blanket assertion they`re just not going to prosecute bigamy, period, boop. Not OK. But the reality is, Renee, if you look at the law, Jason, a man has a marriage with one woman, then he has all these spiritual marriages with all these other women? Does that even qualify?

RENEE ROCKWEELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not bigamy?

GRACE: I don`t know. Does that even qualify as bigamy, Renee?

ROCKWELL: That`s nothing. He`s only married to one wife and if they`re just shacking up with the rest of them, that`s a waste of taxpayer money, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, you know, you`ve used that taxpayer money waste on a lot of crimes that I have thought should have been prosecuted. But the reality is, Jason Oshins, it may not actually be a crime. If these women want to line up, 21 of them for one man, you know what, get after it. But the reality is, it`s not a legal marriage, under which you can prosecute, under the bigamy laws. I`m not so sure that it would qualify.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, you`re right. And there are certain exceptions in terms of, you know, girls that are -- you know, under 17 but above 14 and the ages of the men are within three years. So there are certain exceptions within Texas. But, listen, it comes down to, you know, a management of resources.

GRACE: A management of resources. Yes, I`ve heard that defense argument as well. What I think it comes down to is that in may, with all these women with one husband may not qualify for prosecution of bigamy unless they go down to the courthouse, they take out a marriage certificate, they get married, then they do it over and over and over again.

I want to go out to Flora Jessop, executive director of Child Protection Project.

Flora, we see step one with a judge ordering the Texas attorney general to review all the evidence to determine criminal charges, if there are any appropriate. What is your response?

FLORA JESSOP, FMR. POLYGAMIST & CHILD BRIDE, EXEC. DIRECTOR OF THE CHILD PROTECTION PROJECT: I think that they need to pursue every criminal charge they can to stop the systemic and widespread abuses that are occurring within polygamy and within the FLDS, especially. These kids -- we have got to take every step possible to protect these children.

GRACE: Do you believe, Flora, that is why so many people refuse to give their DNA even to claim their own kids, because they were afraid of a criminal prosecution?

JESSOP: Oh, absolutely. And you know, these guys are systemically cowards and have long hidden behind the skirts of their women and children and the cloak of religion. And we`ve got to take the cloak of religion off of child abuse and prosecute the crime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Tonight, apparently the first step towards a criminal prosecution in the Texas raid of a polygamist ranch.

Out to the lines. Marsha in Pennsylvania. Hi, Marsha. Marsha, are you with me? Hold on.

Tia in North Carolina. Hi, Tia.

TIA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

TIA: I have a question. I want to know, how long the DNA tests take, and once the results come back, what are they going to do with the kids?

GRACE: Michael Board, how long are they estimating on the DNA, and when do the hearings start and when are they set to be finished regarding custody?

BOARD: Let`s see, the DNA (INAUDIBLE) would take about a month, so let`s see, it started about a month ago, it should be getting soon now when we`re -- start getting the DNA test results back. Will those -- be admitted in the criminal case? I don`t know. Those are -- we`re told by CPS that it`s just for the civil cases.

GRACE: Out to Marsha in Pennsylvania. Hi, Marsha.

MARSHA, PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

MARSHA: I just have a question on this doctor. Since he goes back and forth between different states, is he licensed in each state?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Michael Board, what do we know about the Yearning for Zion doctor?

BOARD: Our friend Dr. Lloyd Barlow, yes, he is licensed to practice in Texas, Arizona and Utah, and he has three family practices. One in Hilldale, Utah, one in Colorado City, Arizona, one in Eldorado, Texas. He is licensed to practice in Texas. And yes, the Texas Medical Board is looking into the case to see if possibly -- if he was -- did he know things were going on?

If he knew that the crimes were being committed on that ranch, underage marriage, teen brides, abuse, we heard about the broken bones, if they find out that he knew about this, then, yes, he could face not only disbarment, but fines here in Texas.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Ivan Merlo, 19, San. Marcos, California, killed, Iraq. Enlisting straight from high school, awarded the National Defense Service medal and Army Service ribbon. Magnetic personality, loved to laugh, giving friends advice. Leaves behind parents, Tony and Joana, two brothers and widow, Nicole.

Ivan Merlo, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for inviting us into your homes. And tonight, a special happy birthday to Fayetteville friend of the show, Olivia.

Happy birthday, Olivia.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END