Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs This Week
Murder in Mexico City; Consumers Bill of Rights; Continuing Campaigning; Transfering Technology to China
Aired May 11, 2008 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight: A cold-blooded murder in Mexico City -- again. New evidence that the Mexican government is fighting a losing war against the drug cartels -- a war frequently spilling now into this country.
Incredibly, some members of Congress refuse to support a Bill of Rights for American consumers that would protect credit card holders from predatory lenders. One of those lawmakers is Congressman Jeb Hensarling.
We'll have a little discussion about that and a great deal more coming straight up here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS THIS WEEK: News, debate, and opinion. Here now: Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody. Senator Hillary Clinton tonight saying she will fight to the finish in the battle for the Democratic presidential nomination. Senator Clinton is campaigning hard in states such as West Virginia, trying to convince voters and superdelegates she's the best candidate to defeat Senator McCain. But Senator Obama is picking up more support trying to unite the Democratic Party at the same time around his candidacy.
Candy Crowley has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Colleagues, tourists, pages looking for a picture and press scrums.
QUESTION: How much longer will the race go on, senator?
CROWLEY: Barack Obama was on Capitol Hill with the aura, though not the votes, of a presidential nominee.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D-IL) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's why I'm running for president, sweetie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you win, too. You win it.
CROWLEY: So, is she putting together an exit strategy? A Clinton insider replies, N-O, exclamation point.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D-NY) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a little bit like deja vu all over again. Some in Washington wanted us to end our campaign, and then I won New Hampshire.
CROWLEY: The itinerary speaks to her current state of mind, having made her case in West Virginia, which has its primary next Tuesday, Hillary Clinton took off for South Dakota -- very much in the race.
CLINTON: So, on June the 3rd, Montana and South Dakota will have the last word.
CROWLEY: She needs a 9.0 on the Richter scale to shake this up in her favor. And guess who's in West Virginia waiting for an earthquake?
BILL CLINTON, FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: She could still win this thing if you vote for her big enough.
(APPLAUSE)
B. CLINTON: They're going to have to resolve Michigan and Florida. And when they do, she can win the popular vote.
CROWLEY: It's not a widely held theory. Some Clinton supporters are jumping ship and Obama is still gathering up superdelegates. But one Clinton advisor says she's not campaigning in some kind of parallel universe, "she doesn't think this is over." Clinton believes she is the best candidate to beat John McCain, so the superdelegates courtship continues.
CLINTON: I'm winning Catholic voters and Hispanic voters and blue-collar workers and seniors -- the kind of people that Senator McCain will be fighting for in the general election.
CROWLEY: Another source close to the Clintons adds, there is "more to this than the math." She has "a loyalty to the history" she and her supporters are writing.
CLINTON: Too many people have fought too hard to see a woman continue in this race, this is history-making race. And I want everybody to understand that.
CROWLEY: And that is her supporters, including millions of women, who give caution to many Democrats and the Obama campaign: They need those votes in the fall. They cannot be seen trying to muscle her out.
OBAMA: I don't want to get ahead of myself here. Senator Clinton is a very formidable candidate.
CROWLEY: Privately, some party leaders are anxious to have this over. But one top-level party honcho says, "We're talking three more weeks, let it ride."
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: The battle between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton has polarized the Democratic Party. The division is even clearer in the primaries in Indiana and North Carolina. Some Democrats now are concerned that the differences will benefit Senator McCain.
Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): You've heard about the red/blue divide in American politics. Barack Obama condemns Republicans for exploiting it.
OBAMA: To slice and dice this country into red states and blue states, blue-collar and white-collar, white, black, brown, young, old, rich, poor.
SCHNEIDER: Well, it's happening already, inside the Democratic Party. Barack Obama is winning the blue Democrats: young voters, upscale urban professionals, well-educated liberals and African- Americans. Hillary Clinton is getting the red Democrats: seniors, whites, blue-collar and rural voters, and more conservative Democrats. The split has gotten bigger since Clinton became a gun-toting, whiskey-drinking, street-fighting, tax-cutting populist.
CLINTON: And I know how hard you're working, working for yourselves, and working for your families. And I will never stop fighting for you.
SCHNEIDER: In Indiana, nearly half the Democratic primary voters said they have a gun in their household. They voted for Clinton. And the half of Democrats who did not own a gun? They voted for Obama.
Red versus blue means left versus right. In Indiana, Clinton lost liberal Democrats to Obama. They're the blue voters. Clinton and Obama split the moderates. Conservatives or red Democrats voted heavily for Clinton.
This is the first time this year we've seen such a sharp ideological division among Democratic voters. The deeper that split becomes, the greater the risk to Democrats in the fall if Obama wins the nomination.
Among Clinton voters in North Carolina on Tuesday, fewer than half said they would support Obama over McCain. Whereas 70 percent of Obama voters said they would vote for Clinton over McCain.
(on camera): Red Democrats: older, more blue-collar, more conservative, are the most likely to vote for a Republican. The Clinton supporter's argument: She would be the strongest nominee because she would be more likely to hold them. The Obama supporters' argument: He'll hold them because they're hurting so much under a Republican president.
Bill Schneider, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Democrats are divided as well about the disputed primaries in Michigan and Florida. CNN's learned about a remarkable showdown over those primaries between two powerful figures in Hollywood and Washington. Hollywood executive Harvey Weinstein blasting House Speaker Nancy Pelosi demanding a revote in Michigan and Florida.
Ed Henry has the exclusive report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) HOUSE SPEAKER: Good morning.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN has learned Speaker Nancy Pelosi had an explosive phone call with movie mogul Harvey Weinstein late last month, according to three officials briefed on it. Weinstein, a key backer of Senator Hillary Clinton, threatened to cut off campaign money to congressional Democrats unless Pelosi embraces his new plan to finance a revote in Florida and Michigan.
The three officials told CNN, Weinstein appeared determined to buy Clinton more time by pushing for the revote, which may be her last chance of catching Barack Obama. One official said Pelosi refused to give in, telling Weinstein, "Don't ever threaten me again." Though she would not discuss the matter after CNN broke the story.
PELOSI: No, I think enough has been said about that phone conversation.
HENRY: Weinstein vehemently denied any threats to cut off campaign funds, telling CNN, quote, "I told her people felt there would be a disenfranchisement of voters unless leaders came up with the remedy for Florida and Michigan."
Another person familiar with the call said Weinstein also warned that powerful Democrats may turn to Republican John McCain if the problem is not fixed. Pelosi, however, insists the long primary battle is not dividing the party.
PELOSI: Me, I like combat, you know. I think the best training for campaigning is campaigning. So I think that as they have campaigned, the support in our country has grown for our Democratic message. So, this is all very healthy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: But the heated phone call between Pelosi and Weinstein is raising concerns among some Democrats that regardless of who secures the nomination, it's going to be difficult to heal the party's wounds this summer -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry reporting from Washington.
Coming up next: Much more on the presidential campaign. Senator Clinton says she's fighting on, but has she lost all hope of defeating Obama? Three of the best political analysts join me.
And: U.S. companies selling high-tech equipment to communist Chinese police agencies. Why not? We'll have the story.
And: Gunmen assassinate Mexico's top federal police official and another official at the end of the week -- a stunning new example of a war raging out of control and threatening the United States. We'll have that special report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New evidence there's a full-scale war raging now in Mexico between the Mexican government and the drug cartels, a war that frequently spills over the border into this country. Two top Mexican government officials this week killed by gunmen in Mexico, just one more sign of the violence now raging.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Less than 10 weeks after taking over as acting chief of Mexico's federal police force, Edgar Millan Gomez was shot and killed early Thursday outside his Mexico City home. Millan was hit at least eight times. Police have one suspect in custody.
Millan was in charge of coordinating federal police operations with the Mexican military in a joint crackdown on the drug cartel's operating with impunity throughout much of Mexico.
In January, Millan announced the arrest of 11 alleged cartel hitmen and a huge weapons cache.
EDGAR MILLAN GOMEZ, MEXICO FEDERAL POLICE (through translator): We are sure they are the commands of the cartel structure operating in Mexico City. They have high-powered weapons like grenades, missile guns and jackets.
WIAN: In a statement, Mexican President Felipe Calderon's government called the killing, "a cowardly murder of a model civil servant" and vowed to "step up its crime fighting. The example set by the Coordinator Millan Gomez will encourage us to continue fighting against those that jeopardize Mexicans' health and tranquility.
Millan is the 10th Mexican federal police officer killed in just the past three weeks from Mexico City to Tijuana on the U.S. border.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R) TEXAS: These drug cartels are not only a threat to Mexico but to the national security interest of the United States directly. We are at war with the drug cartels. They are part of the war on terror. We need an effective military strategy to deal with them. They represent the head of the snake and the head of the snake needs to be cut off.
WIAN: McCaul says the assassination is another reason Congress should approve the Merida Initiative which seeks $1.4 billion in military aid for Mexico's war on drug cartels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: That war's death toll so far in less than a year and a half -- about 3,300 civilians and 200 police office, more than 3,000 suspected drug cartel members have been arrested, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, it's time for us to get very straight-forward. This broadcast, we report week in and week out, on what is happening with those drugs crossing the border from Mexico into the United States. The Merida request for funds is $1.4 billion. It's for the Mexican government.
The fact is: it's a drop in the bucket. The fact is that we have a situation in which Mexico is still providing most -- most of this country's methamphetamines, cocaine, heroin and marijuana; and our government, our president, our Congress, does not have the guts to secure that border, and they are spending $1.4 billion on the Merida proposal and at the same time permitting as much as $50 billion in illegal narcotics to cross our border.
This is a lie, it's a sham. By every law enforcement agency in the country trying to get something done on that border and being held back by politicians such as the president of the United States and the Democratic leadership of this Congress.
Casey, thank you very much -- Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Well, it gets scary when you think about an elected official, a man who wanted to run for president in point of fact, New Mexico's governor, failed Democratic presidential candidate, Governor Bill Richardson, he is completely out of touch with the reality of violence in Mexico and absolutely unconstrained in his pandering.
Governor Richardson says the U.S.-Mexican border is now more secure. He said that just hours before the top federal police officer of Mexico was assassinated. Governor Richardson also said he wants a State Department travel alert issued by the U.S. ambassador to Mexico re-evaluated, as he put it. Governor Richardson was in Mexico making those remarks.
One of the officials that Richardson met with is the mayor of the border city of Ciudad Juarez where more than 200 people have been killed in drug cartel violence just, so far, this year.
Another Democratic superdelegate, I don't know what he's in touch with, he's certainly out of touch with reality, it seems, trying to sell his vote now. He says it is worth exactly $20 million. Steven Ybarra told us that the candidate, whether it be Clinton or Obama, who makes a $20 million commitment to help eligible Mexican-Americans register to vote will get his vote.
Ybarra says his party is ignoring that group, that is Mexican- Americans, and Ybarra also told us if neither candidate ponies up the money, he'll abstain and won't vote for either of them. Both the Clinton and Obama campaigns tell us that they're not going to be responding to his offer.
Immigration officials processing 33 illegal aliens arrested in Richmond, Virginia. They were working on a construction site and Immigration and Customs Enforcement tells us, most of this group of illegal aliens working on a U.S. courthouse in Richmond will be deported. Two are being held on other criminal charges.
The company that hired the workers is owned by Turner Construction of New York. A statement from the company says it is cooperating in the investigation. Well, that's ducky. I'd sure like to know, for example, what will happen to the illegal employer of those illegal aliens -- because without sanctions against the employers, the Department of Homeland Security continues the sham.
Up next: American companies skirting the law, marketing sensitive American technology to communist China. That special report is coming up.
And: Congress proposing a credit card holder's Bill of Rights. One congressman says that would be a "bill of wrongs." I'll be talking with this congressman here next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: After the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989, the United States passed a law, supposedly, to ban the sale of U.S. crime fighting technology to communist China. But advances in technology and loosening of oversight have all but put that law out of date.
Now, American companies exploit the opportunity marketing sensitive technology to police forces in communist China.
Carrie Lee has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARRIE LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cars and trucks, surveillance equipment, computer copy kits like these. All made in the U.S., all being marketed to Chinese police.
Following the Tiananmen Square killings in 1989, the U.S. banned the sale of licensed crime control or detection equipment to China.
These pictures were found on a Chinese Web site by a U.S. security think tank. They show products on display at Beijing's 2006 Police Equipment Trade Show, the same convention with similar products was held about a month ago. These products on display don't even require a U.S. export license -- a point not lost on this expert on Asian military affairs.
RICHARD FISHER, INT'L. ASSESSMENT & STRATEGY CTR.: Well, yes, there is a -- basically a very large and troubling gray zone when it comes to dual use technology sales to China. I would hope that our government would essentially look at any potential technologies' ability to kill or to aid in the suppression of legitimate dissent. LEE: Disk drive copy kits like this one from California tech company Intelligent Computer Solutions can allow Chinese law enforcement to copy computer data without the user's knowledge. ICS sells similar kits to the FBI, Secret Service and the U.S. military. Motorola's surveillance equipment doesn't require an export license either.
In Washington, the Bureau of Industry and Security says it "aggressively enforces and evaluates U.S. regulations on crime control equipment to make sure they are effectively protecting human rights and advancing U.S. foreign policy objectives."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEE: The bureau is a unit of the Commerce Department and these officials are taking public comments now on crime control exports through mid-June. But so far, Lou, the bureau is being very tight- lipped about whether it sees these exports as a problem.
DOBBS: And I'm sure they appreciate us putting a little light on what they're doing at this point, Carrie. Thank you very much, Carrie Lee.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Maureen in Florida said, "Lou, I'm incensed the Democratic Party wants to belittle or ignore my and other Floridians' vote. All the candidates' names were on the ballot and our voter turnout was high -- so what's the problem?"
June in Florida: "I want my vote to count. I've earned it. I worked hard to become a U.S. citizen and I love this country. Everyone's vote should count."
I couldn't agree with you more, whether you're in Michigan or whether you're in Florida.
And Jerry in Oregon, with all of the damage the current administration has done to our country, I've decided to take the plunge and join the growing number of independent voters. After watching your show I know I will no longer accept business as usual."
Well, good for you and congratulations.
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to LouDobbs.com. And please, join me on the radio Monday through Friday for the "Lou Dobbs Show." Monday afternoon, my guest include University of Maryland professor, Peter Morici, on our economic slowdown; Robert Wright, author of "One Nation Under Debt"; and Daniel Henninger, deputy editor of the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page.
And we ask you to go to LouDobbsRadio.com and LouDobbs.com to get local listings for the "Lou Dobbs Show" each afternoon, Monday through Friday on the radio.
And up next here: Senator Obama leading in the race for the Democratic nomination. Is he, however, the most electable Democrat? We'll be talking with our panel of top political experts on that and more.
We'll have the latest as well on that Wisconsin gun rights case that could affect gun ownership across the entire country.
And: Some members of Congress are fighting a "Bill of Rights" to protect you from predatory credit card companies. A congressman who says the legislation is a "bill of wrongs" joins me. We'll have a full and frank discussion.
We'll be right back. Stay with us
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the best political analysts and CNN contributors: Here in New York City, "New York Daily News" columnist, Errol Louis; Democratic strategist, Hank Scheinkopf; in Washington, D.C, "Washington Times" columnist, Diana West. Thanks for being with us, everybody.
Let me start with you, if I may, Mr. Sheinkopf. The Democratic nomination process is at an end.
HANK SHEINKOPF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I would suggest so. It is over. It is time for Mrs. Clinton to figure out how she's going to get out honorably and to not make herself annoying to the guy who will be the nominee and that's Barack Obama. Why? The delegate counts speak for themselves.
DOBBS: But that delicate count, Earl, neither one of them, mathematically, can win sufficient pledged delegates to secure the nomination. This is a brokered nomination by any definition, no matter whether it ends June 3rd or between now and then, or in Denver at the national convention.
ERROL LOUIS, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: Right. But, the superdelegates who will make the difference, that number has been changing, and he has actually caught her in the number of superdelegates at this point. He may even surpass her by next week.
DOBBS: Would you recommend this, Hank Sheinkopf does, that she step out?
LOUIS: Well, and not just yet. I mean, look -- people, insiders know that this is not a simple process. She has to pay off campaign debts. She has to figure out where her aides will go. She may have some legitimate complaints about the way this primary season went -- about how caucuses should be counted, whether or not the Democrats want to change their rules.
Jesse Jackson did the same thing 20 years ago. If they want to make an impact on how the party moves forward, how you staff the DNC, how you change the rules. That's part of what somebody in her position is entitled to. DOBBS: Comments (ph) you're suggesting that one of the things keeping her in it is she's waiting for Barack Obama to pay off her campaign debt.
LOUIS: Well, that's a crude way of stating what I was sort of noting in a round-about way. She's got a lot of issues, both political and personnel issues that need to be resolved. So, it would be irresponsible, frankly, for her to just wake up tomorrow and say - well, I can't win, so I'm going on vacation.
You know, there are a lot of people have put in a lot of time, raised a lot of money for her. And again, there is this question about whether or not she wants to have any impact on changing the rules, that seemed to have worked so badly against her this time.
DOBBS: Do you think she ought to be the vice presidential candidate at this point, assuming she doesn't prevail through some magic, Diana?
DIANA WEST, WASHINGTON TIMES: No, I don't. I can't imagine that happening. And I think - I think we have to remember that even though both she and Barack Obama are obviously Democrats, I'm not so sure she wants to see him succeed in the end because if he does become president, she has no chance to become the first female president in 2012.
So, she is playing off her own ambitions against a party loyalty. Think that that is why she will stay in and that is why we'll see a tough negotiation.
DOBBS: Well, next here, we're going to be talking about the role of Rush Limbaugh in the Democratic presidential nomination. It seems a lot of people don't want to acknowledge that he's having any influence at all. Is that the case?
And: We'll be talking about a sentencing of a man in Wisconsin that could affect your right to own a gun. The Second Amendment at risk.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: I'm back with Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf and Diana West.
What is going on with McCain? McCain says now, Diana, that he wants to -- as George Bush spread democracy through the Middle East, he wants to make certain that every nation is imbued with the right to respect and freedom of religion. Has -- what is going through his mind perhaps?
WEST: Well, I'm not sure. Spreading democracy throughout the Middle East and making sure that everyone has freedom of religion are two different things. I mean he seems...
DOBBS: Well, that -- you know, I understand it's two different things.
WEST: Yes.
DOBBS: My point was that's what George Bush did. It's going to be a tremendous burden on his legacy, and...
WEST: Yes.
DOBBS: And the fact is John McCain talking about intruding into the lives...
WEST: Right.
DOBBS: ...and the atmosphere of every nation...
WEST: Bad idea.
DOBBS: ...seems quite a different thing and just as bad an idea.
WEST: Yes, it does. Well, it may even involve even greater degrees of overreach because, of course, giving people ballot boxes is not the same as changing their cultures that do repress religion so, yes, he's...
DOBBS: What happened to the idea that the American tradition was to stay out of other people's business?
WEST: I really -- I think that that's been gone for quite a while. But we haven't learned to temper our own national security interests or from our desire to convert everyone in the world to our way of thinking.
DOBBS: Let me go back to Errol Louis's expression in a crude and direct way. Has the United States simply lost its way when its president and presidential candidates start talking about reforming the world?
SHEINKOPF: Well, to the point of this moment is that John McCain seems to have lost his way. It's endemic of how he's running his campaign. And we talk about things that aren't relevant. He's worrying about the base. The base is taken care of. Go find the rest of your electorate. He's somewhere caught in someplace we don't know and it's not relevant.
What is relevant -- but I think he's absolutely relevant at this moment, he hasn't figured out how to make himself relevant. That's the problem. He's talking about things that are not germane for the discussion.
LOUIS: There are some campaign management issues that are amazing with John McCain when you consider that in the last few primaries, about 25, 26 percent and in some cases 27 percent of the vote in the Republican primaries that are supposed to be all but finished at this point are going to other candidates.
Ron Paul's people are still out there. They're working, they're building organization. Votes are still going to Huckabee. Votes are going to Alan Keyes. There's a portion of the Republican electorate that is unhappy with this man and..
DOBBS: You did mention Mike Huckabee, right?
LOUIS: Yes, Huckabee is pulling votes. I mean it's...
DOBBS: Well, let's be also fully, fully -- let's disclose fully here what else is going on. There are so few votes being cast by Republicans in what are -- these are just simply a pro forma elections for Republicans and as a matter of fact, a number of votes being cast by Republicans is de minimis, and as a result, those percentages are higher.
LOUIS: Well, that's...
DOBBS: You have to acknowledge that as well.
LOUIS: That, of course, is what McCain is saying. On the other hand it might be a good use of his time if he's going to put in time in states and he is making appearances in some of these states to sort of tie up loose ends and try to pull his base together.
DOBBS: Right. Well, let's talk about use of good time. Operation Chaos, as Rush Limbaugh describes it. Is it effective? Is it working, in your opinion?
SHEINKOPF: Hard to have a definitive way to examine it. We'll go with Limbaugh and say he's having some impact because he's on a lot of stations, a lot of people listen to him. Is it a good use time? Why not? Is it helpful to Republicans in the fall? Potentially. But should a radio personality be doing that? The answer is it's been done again and again and again, so why not.
DOBBS: Diana, your thoughts?
WEST: Well, I agree with that. I think what's interesting about it is that the inspiration for Operation Chaos has to do with the ineffectiveness of the Republican establishment to be making the case against the Democrats, to be exposing the weaknesses of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
DOBBS: Right.
WEST: And so in this way, Rush Limbaugh has effectively forced Hillary Clinton on to make these points to reveal these things about Barack Obama's association...
DOBBS: Well, and Hillary Clinton...
WEST: ...and what we've discussed.
DOBBS: And Hillary, for her part, is saying she's the white person's candidate, effectively. Isn't she? What the heck is that about? SHEINKOPF: Well, look. She is a -- terrific candidate who may have run a bad campaign. That being said, she's making a point that I think is being taken out of context. She is the white blue-collar candidate, there is no question about that, based upon results.
DOBBS: Right.
SHEINKOPF: The problem here for both parties, McCain and for Obama if they are the nominees, is they've got to win that same vote for one that's...
DOBBS: Yes, but -- if she's being this direct and this, let's say, lacking in artful expression for what's going on in the Democratic Party, why in the world is she doing it if she really thinks she's going to be stepping out here after, what, West Virginia, did you say?
LOUIS: I think it just shows the corners she's been backed into. I mean she kept losing states, she kept losing delegates, she kept falling behind in money, and so her spin from her team kept being, well, there's this sector that she's stronger in and there's this sector. And so she really just came out and bluntly said what it is. And it is just as Hank said, it's, you know, you're lower income, lower educated...
DOBBS: How worry should the Democrats be about the fact that Barack Obama has not been able to do well among white, blue-collar workers?
LOUIS: I don't think it is fatal. I mean he's got plenty of time. He's got a certain amount of experience. He wasn't wasting his time on the south side trying to organize steel workers at the start of his political career...
SHEINKOPF: Because of John McCain who's absolutely off message in the wrong place talking the wrong things.
DOBBS: And in many polls running ahead of both Clinton and Obama. We'll leave it there.
WEST: Right, and I think...
DOBBS: That doesn't worry anybody, we'll leave it there. OK.
Diana West, Errol Louis, Hank Sheinkopf, thank you very much, folks.
Still ahead, an outspoken congressional opponent of a proposed bill of rights for credit card holders joins us. You don't want to Congressman Hensarling.
And the latest on a Wisconsin gun rights case being watched by gun owners across the country and anyone interested in civil rights and responsible, responsible prosecution.
We'll continue in one moment. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A gun owner, tonight, is awaiting sentencing from a federal judge. David Olofson was convicted of, quote, "transferring a machine gun," end quote, after he loaned a neighbor his 20-year-old AR-15. The semiautomatic rifle malfunctioned on the firing range, firing two bursts of rounds of three shots. It jammed each time.
Olofson's sentencing has now been delayed because the court is now considering a new motion from the defense.
Bill Tucker has the very important story on the Second Amendment and truth in justice in America from Berlin, Wisconsin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The government has a letter that the defense wants it to share with the court. The letter is from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to the manufacturer of Olofson's rifle. It could be the bombshell that he needs to gain himself a trial.
According to those who say they've read the letter, it acknowledges that the AR-15-style rifle made by Olympic Arms SGW and owned by Olofson occasionally is prone to a malfunction that results in multiple burst firings.
LEN SAVAGE, HISTORIC ARMS, LLC: It shows us that the firearm can accidentally go full auto without the user being aware and that the parts needed to be replaced under a recall, and a government-mandated recall on Mr. Olofson's rifle.
TUCKER: The only copy of the letter is in ATF files. The company's copy was lost in a fire. The ATF successfully kept it out of Olofson's trial, arguing that it contained privileged tax information.
But a separate internal ATF memo written in the '80s from the then-General Counsel's Office that was obtained by Olofson's attorneys appears to show that the letter is not and should not be considered a tax document.
Olofson's lawyers and Olofson himself are hopeful of a judge- reversed decision.
DAVID OLOFSON, GUN OWNER: I'm glad he announced the delay. It shows that he's taking the information that we brought forward to him in a very serious light.
TUCKER: The prosecution remains silent, as they have throughout the trial, saying they will have no comment until the trial ends with Olofson's sentencing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now it was here at the Berlin Conservation Club, Lou, that the rifle owned by Olofson misfired the couple of rounds, jamming as it did. The club has a strict anti-automatic weapon policy, so when that malfunction happened, it drew attention and the police were notified. That's how this case came to the attention of the ATF.
Now there are three motions currently pending before this judge, Lou. The first one by the defense is for an outright acquittal. The second is for the disclosure of this letter. And the third is for a new trial.
It's not likely, Lou, I'm told by lawyers, that this judge will throw the case out, because they don't like to do that in jury trials. But they do say it's possible, if this judge takes a good look at this letter, he might decide that a new trial is in order -- Lou.
DOBBS: How did this new letter surface?
TUCKER: This was done through discovery. A number of the sources in this case, Lou, had talked about the fact that this letter existed. And in fact, some while back I spoke with the owner of Schuetzen Gun Works who told me he had read the letter. He had a copy at one point. He remembered the general contents of it but then...
DOBBS: We're talking about a man facing a felony conviction here and sentencing...
TUCKER: Right.
DOBBS: ...for years of his life in the balance in these attorneys...
TUCKER: Right.
DOBBS: ....and this judge, are playing games are -- over the content of that letter, which absolutely absolves him?
TUCKER: The U.S. attorney -- the U.S. attorney told the judge they could not share the memo with him or with the court because it contains privileged tax information. This new internal memo that Olofson's attorneys have found indicate, Lou, that's just not a fact, that he should have seen that letter and it apparently should have been introduced into trial. But the judge did not allow it the first time around.
DOBBS: Well, the judge didn't allow it. At this point, it was like there's reason for a very wide-ranging investigation in why -- into why a man who has served in the United States Army reserves...
TUCKER: Exactly.
DOBBS: ...served his country, and done so with an honorable discharge -- I mean, the treatment by ATF and this judge and these prosecutors and, frankly, the absolute lack of energy and vigor on the part of the defense attorneys. And where in the world has been the National Rifle Association?
TUCKER: The National Rifle Association, Lou, has been watching the case from a distance. They've been waiting to be invited in.
TUCKER: The National Rifle Association, Lou, has been watching the case from a distance. They've been waiting to be invited in. They have, at this point, been invited into the case, and they are waiting for the sentencing phase. If there's a new trial or if there's an appeal, there are indications that they could become actively involved in the case. But they --
DOBBS: Why in the world...
TUCKER: ...don't like to thrust themselves into cases unless they're asked.
DOBBS: Why in the world would anybody be waiting here when a man's freedom and his rights hang in the balance? This is absurd.
TUCKER: It is a terrific question, Lou. It's great. And remember, this is not a man with any prior criminal convictions. This is not a man with a history of violence. This is, as you point out, an honorably discharged veteran of the U.S. Army.
DOBBS: We thank you very much, Bill Tucker, from Berlin, Wisconsin. Appreciate it.
The Law Enforcement Alliance of America says now that any sentence for Olofson would be too severe. And the Law Enforcement Alliance said Olofson did, in fact, not commit a crime.
Ted Deeds is the national spokesman for the alliance. And the alliance, by the way, is normally on the side of law enforcement and the prosecutors. So his statements, the alliance's statements here on behalf of Mr. Olofson are significant.
Joining us from Washington, we appreciate it. This case with Olofson, I mean, this is a man -- who served his country. He has a family and is being treated like some sort of sinister thug, and we could not find any evidence that this man has ever been ablate of grass in the wrong direction.
TED DEEDS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE OF AMERICA: Normally, Lou, as you know, people and law enforcement at either the actor or the act. And if the actor is a clean person who's not a gang-banger, rapist, pedophile, and the act that he is alleged to do, I mean, you look at it and try to balance it.
Prosecution decisions are based on, usually, bad actors or bad acts or both, such that the public policy, the public safety concern is addressed by the prosecution.
What it seems to me, that when you look at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, they've had a long history, 30 years plus, of having problems, it seems, with agents that can't kind of keep it between the lines.
And in this case, you had an agent who was supervised by two levels of supervisors. So the agent didn't apparently use their discretion, didn't apparently use common sense and didn't have, it seems from our perspective, decent supervision. Two supervisors within that chain of command let this case go forward.
And then, as you know, the ultimate check and balance is the independent United States attorney's office. They're supposed to review the case, see if it merits prosecution, see if the public interest is served by spending the time and energy to bring the full weight of the U.S. government down on the individual.
And normally, you know, we cheer when they bring it down on a drug dealer or a rapist or what have you.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
DEEDS: In this case, none of those facts are present. And I think there needs to be some grown-up leadership at the BATF. You know, there is no leader currently.
DOBBS: Right.
DEEDS: As I understand it, the nomination is before Congress. Congress has bills before it that they could pass to send a message. They could change the law. They could also cut funding or do other things. You know, the leadership needs to step up to the plate here and there needs to be a grown-up in charge.
DOBBS: Has your organization suggested to any of the law enforcement agencies, the prosecutors that, for crying out loud, somebody assert adult, responsible leadership here?
DEEDS: Lou, police in America cannot police effectively without the trust and support of the communities they serve. Most of the police departments and agencies in this country are relatively small.
Here you have a national agency that's had a reputation of spotty performance over three decades. And they come in, and they get the local cops to kind of do their dirty work, and do the SWAT service, do the dynamic entry when, from all reports, this gentlemen voluntarily presented himself to a local chief of police.
DOBBS: Right.
DEEDS: I mean, what's going on? The locals are going to follow the federal agency's lead, because they trust them and they should. But if that federal agency demonstrates that they can't be trusted, they're undermining all of the public support.
DOBBS: Ted Deeds of Law Enforcement Alliance, we thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.
DEEDS: Thanks for having us on, Lou.
DOBBS: Congress proposing a credit card hold bill of rights. One of the bill's leading opponents is Congress Jeb Hensarling. Why is he doing that? He joins us next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Credit card delinquencies, tonight, at the highest level in two decades. Congress right now is considering a credit card holder's bill of rights to try to limit the predatory company practices.
My next guest is a leading opponent of that proposal. He's Congressman Jeb Hensarling. He joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Good to have you with us, Congressman.
REP. JEB HENSARLING (R), TEXAS: Thanks, Lou. Thanks for having me, Lou.
DOBBS: I think we ought to just start out right away. Why do you think that a credit card bill of rights would be a, as you put it, a bill of wrongs?
HENSARLING: Well, I don't think a bill would necessarily be a bill of wrongs. I think this bill would be a bill of wrongs. And the reason, Lou, I think it would be a bill of wrongs is because for millions of Americans who are struggling to fill up their gas tank and put food on the table, what this bill could do is actually increase fees. It could lead to annual fees. It could lead to taking away some of their benefits.
DOBBS: The point is, to limit fees. The point is to limit the damage that can be done to families.
HENSARLING: That's why we don't want this bill, Lou. That's why we don't want this bill.
Right now if you go back, say 10 years ago, a third fewer Americans had access to credit cards. They all had to pay annual fees and they paid a high interest rate. What's changed? What has changed is the ability of companies in a competitive marketplace to offer some people with good credit records, half of America pays their credit bills in full on time, and so they get to pay lower rates.
What Congress is trying to do is essentially take away their ability to price for risk and it's just not fair...
DOBBS: That's -- you're right.
HENSARLING: ...to 95 percent of Americans who either pay their bill on time or pay according to the terms of their credit card.
DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more, because the last thing we would want is for the credit card companies to abuse any more consumers in this country. The idea -- so then you do support Ben Bernanke's call for more regulation of the credit card industry.
You're not opposed to regulation then of the credit card industry itself, you have no problem with stopping these fees, these bait-and- switch interest rates, ending those practices. Do you?
HENSARLING: I have a problem with some of the regulations that Bernanke has proposed but not all of it.
DOBBS: How about the $135 billion in interest? How about the bait-and-switch tactics of these major credit card companies, the usurious interest rates that are beyond any kind of pale of conscience or reason? There is no economic basis for it, Congressman. How could you possibly object to it?
HENSARLING: What I believe is that there has to be better disclosure. Nobody understands their credit card terms. And so, frankly, there is a problem with disclosure. It comes from the government. And it comes from trial lawyers, and it comes from some credit card companies, indeed engaging in unscrupulous practices.
So I believe there ought to be regulation but there ought to not be prohibiting the ability of people who have good credit records from paying less than those who don't.
DOBBS: And what?
HENSARLING: That's what I'm trying to defend.
DOBBS: At what point is it loan sharking? At what percentage interest would you say loan sharking begins?
HENSARLING: Listen, I think as long as you know the terms and you agree to the terms...
DOBBS: No, no, no -- but look. I'm not being hypothetical, I'm not being abstract or philosophical, I'm asking you a straight-forward question. At what point do you think somebody should go to jail for usurious rates in this country?
HENSARLING: I think as long as you agree to the terms then you shouldn't. Again, it has to do with...
DOBBS: So if somebody switches the interest rate on you without your understanding it and knowledge, do you think somebody ought to go to jail then?
HENSARLING: If somebody did not disclose that, if they engaged in fraud or deception, the answer is, yes. But again, Lou...
DOBBS: How about predatory lending?
HENSARLING: Lou - well, there's a lot of predatory lending...
DOBBS: Yes, there is.
HENSARLING: ...and there's a lot of predatory loans.
DOBBS: And we need to shut it down, don't we? I just have to ask this question. You are aware we had usury laws in this country for a century. Right?
HENSARLING: Oh, I'm familiar with usury laws. DOBBS: And you are -- you are aware that we didn't change those usury laws until the credit card companies demanded that we do so. Right?
HENSARLING: Well, Lou, if you're trying to roll the clock back to a time there are very few Americans...
DOBBS: No, I'm not trying to do anything. I'm trying to get a straight answer out of a congressman.
HENSARLING: ...don't have access...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: That's all I'm trying to do, get a straight answer out of a congressman.
HENSARLING: Yes, I am aware there is usury laws.
DOBBS: And you're aware that we rolled those back to suit the credit card companies.
HENSARLING: Yes. And guess what?
DOBBS: And you're aware...
HENSARLING: You sent people to payday lenders and you sent them to pawn shops when they should have been able to get credit cards, Lou.
DOBBS: No, no. No, no, we didn't. We made a bunch of banks a whole bunch of money. And we made credit card companies, Visa, Mastercard, American Express, a lot of money. Now what we're saying is, it's time to put those usury rates back into place. What do you think?
HENSARLING: I think it's a terrible idea. Once again...
DOBBS: I knew you would.
HENSARLING: Once again, Lou, you're taking credit cards away from hardworking...
DOBBS: I knew you would. You know why? The credit card companies are...
HENSARLING: No, I'm not here to defend credit card companies. I'm here to defend freedom.
DOBBS: Why not?
HENSARLING: I'm here to defend opportunity of our working Americans to be able to get a credit card and pay a lower fee if they have a lower risk.
DOBBS: But you know what? Congressman, if I may say, if a working man and woman in this country in our middle class gets any more defense from folks like you, they can kiss it all good-bye, because basically they haven't got the $3 billion, almost $3 billion a year to lobby you all in Washington, D.C.
So they kind of get squeezed out. Who wrote the bankruptcy law of 2005?
HENSARLING: Why don't you tell us?
DOBBS: I'll tell you straight up. The lobbyists for the credit card companies and financial institutions and the Republican leadership. Congress ought to be ashamed to its socks. And that's a fact. And to have you all sitting there telling the American people what is their right? My gosh, Congressman, you can do better than that.
HENSARLING: Well, Lou, you're the one who invited me on. I just accepted. Again, you need to look at your economics. There's people who are going to be denied credit cards if we do what you want them to do. People are struggling to fill up their gas tank and send kids to college, they shouldn't have their credit cards taken away.
DOBBS: I can't believe you're sitting there with a grin on your face saying that, Congressman.
HENSARLING: You got a competitive marketplace. I defend the free American citizens...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry, help me out. Oh, Mr. Free Trader, help me out. How many credit card companies dominate the credit card market in this country? How many?
HENSARLING: Well, it depends on what you call domination. There are 10 major companies.
DOBBS: Right.
HENSARLING: But you get 6,000 -- 6,000 -- different credit cards that you get now.
DOBBS: So 10, 10 basic companies.
What's that called in economics, Congressman? It is called an oligopoly, isn't it?
HENSARLING: Well, we got two American controlled computer operated...
DOBBS: That's not exactly a free market? But I take it, since you're so proud free trade you're going to break them up. Is that it?
HENSARLING: No, because I don't believe there's effective competition because you're (INAUDIBLE) 6,000 different credit cards.
DOBBS: Well, so long as you believe it there's -- give me a break.
HENSARLING: Where else do you have 6,000 credit cards...
DOBBS: Why don't you have the guts to say straightforward to those credit card companies, you're not going to screw the American consumer? Why don't you have that much courage?
HENSARLING: Lou, again, if they are engaged in improper disclosure, if they're engaged in fraudulent practices they ought to go to jail.
DOBBS: How would you know? How would you know?
HENSARLING: The regulations are fine there. But the outlaw of practice...
DOBBS: Who's doing the regulating? Who's doing the regulating?
HENSARLING: ...to where a company and an individual say this is the credit card I want and you're taking that opportunity away from them. That's not fair. That's not the American way.
DOBBS: And Congressman, you're reaching - and you are putting your arm around those credit card companies and putting your other hand...
HENSARLING: No, I'm putting my arm around...
DOBBS: ...in the pocket of the American consumer.
HENSARLING: I'm putting my arm around the American consumer who has an opportunity to get credit.
DOBBS: That's a chilly grip you got there, Congressman.
HENSARLING: And you would take it away from him is to outlaw these practices again.
DOBBS: Congressman, thanks for being with us.
HENSARLING: You're welcome, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you for joining us. Join us here tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching and good night from New York.
