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Nancy Grace
Former Agent Says Simpson Confessed to Murders
Aired May 12, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: NFL Hall of Famer gridiron great and double murder suspect O.J. Simpson gets high on pot and confesses to the brutal double murders of Nicole Brown and Fred Goldman, says Simpson`s long-time agent. And tonight: We learn just why that glove didn`t fit and the jury acquits, and O.J. Simpson`s technique, how he rakes in thousands but never, never pays his court bill to the tune of $42 million.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former agent of O.J. Simpson says Simpson allegedly confesses to murder. In his new tell-all book, long-time business partner Mike Gilbert claims Simpson confessed to killing Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman shortly after being acquitted of the crime. Gilbert says Simpson, who had smoked pot and taken a sleeping pill, told Gilbert he went to ex-wife Nicole`s condominium and Nicole answered the door with a knife in the hand. Gilbert writes that Simpson told him, quote, "If she hadn`t opened that door with a knife in her hand, she`d still be alive."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: We`re sending police. What`s he doing? Is he threatening you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s (DELETED) going nuts.
911 OPERATOR: Has he threatened you in any way, or is he just harassing you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: You`re going to hear him in a minute. He`s about to come in again.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Just stay on the line.
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: I don`t want to stay on the line. He`s going to beat the (DELETED) out of me!
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. Just stay on the line so we can know what`s going on until the police get there, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: The mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing from upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, the suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide. Headlines tonight: A secret grand jury meets behind closed doors and family members testify under oath. What do they reveal? As Peterson`s defense points the finger at a former boyfriend in the murder of wife number three.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The bathtub drowning of former cop Drew Peterson`s third wife ruled a homicide. But tonight, is Drew Peterson`s defense now implying that Savio`s ex-boyfriend could be involved? Peterson`s attorney reportedly claims the couple broke things off the weekend before Savio`s found dead and goes on to say with no signs of forced entry and knowing Savio`s alarm code, it`s in the ex`s best interests to take the 5th before a secret grand jury. But Savio`s family maintains the couple dated at the time of Savio`s death. No suspects have been named in her suspicious drowning. The grand jury also investigating the sudden disappearance of Peterson`s fourth wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... relative of yours saying he helped to carry a rectangular container out of your home on October 28.
DREW PETERSON, SUSPECTED IN 4TH WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I have no idea what anybody`s talking about like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warm to the touch.
PETERSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he believes that he helped you dispose of your wife`s body.
PETERSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you at least respond to that?
PETERSON: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: NFL Hall of Famer gridiron great and double murder suspect O.J. Simpson gets high on pot and confesses to the brutal double murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, says Simpson`s long-time agent. And just why didn`t the murder glove fit in court? And also, for all these years, we finally learn how Simpson scammed the system to the tune of $42 million.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson`s former agent says Simpson allegedly confessed to murdering Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Gilbert says Simpson told him that Nicole answered the door with a knife in her hand, and if she hadn`t, she`d still be alive. Gilbert also claims that he helped Simpson make money after the civil judgment against him by funneling money to Simpson for memorabilia sales to keep the money away from the Goldmans. In another shocking discovery, Gilbert also describes how he advised Simpson how to keep his hands bloated during the murder trial so the infamous bloody gloves wouldn`t fit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Is he talking to you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Are you looked in a room or something?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: No. He can come right in. I`m not going where the kids are because the kids are...
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he`s going to hit you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: I don`t know. I just...
911 OPERATOR: OK. Stay on the line. Don`t hang up, OK?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Well, my ex-husband, or my husband, just broke into my house, and he`s ranting and raving. Now he`s just walked out in the front yard.
911 OPERATOR: Has he been drinking or anything?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: No, but he`s crazy.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: Nicole was the love of my life. I suffered. I didn`t kill them. No matter what everybody want to say, I didn`t do it.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, that`s not what your long-time agent has to say, "How I Helped O.J. Simpson Get Away With Murder."
Out to Ken Baker with E! Entertainment Television. Ken, what do we learn in the book?
KEN BAKER, E! ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION: Well, what we learn is that Mike Gilbert, who was his sports memorabilia dealer -- he wasn`t really an agent per se -- he basically would sell O.J.`s autograph, sell his trophies, sell anything that he could make money on for O.J., and they would split the profits. And what we learned in the book is that, according to Mike Gilbert, O.J. confessed to killing Nicole, O.J. confessed that he was very distraught over the fact that he thought she was cheating. And he also details all these other shady things that O.J. was doing over the last few years...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Wa-wait! Ken, forget about all the shady things Simpson has done over the past few years. You could write volumes 2 through 20 about that. I want to hear about Simpson high on pot and Ambien, confessing to double murder. Hit me.
BAKER: Well, basically, what Mike Gilbert details in his book is that just a few weeks after the criminal trial, where he was acquitted, of course, he claims that O.J. told him while he was under the influence of marijuana, he had been drinking that night and he was also taking the prescription sleeping pill, Ambien, and he was very groggy -- he basically confessed the murder and said, If Nicole hadn`t answered the door the night that I came over, holding a knife, then she wouldn`t be dead. Basically, what Gilbert says is that what that meant was that he took a knife from Nicole`s hand and killed her and Ron Goldman with it.
GRACE: And what`s so incredible about this -- and I`ve read it very carefully. He says, "I waited. A few seconds passe. He continued in a very soft, low mumble, `If she hadn`t opened that door with a knife in her hand, Mike, she`d still be alive.`"
And what`s so interesting is that Gilbert himself -- that night after Simpson goes to sleep, he gets scared. His agent gets scared. What if I know too much, is something going to come get me? He locks his door, puts a chair against the door and sleeps with a knife beside his bed that night because he is afraid of O.J. Simpson. Simpson allegedly high on pot and Ambien, and finally, we learn, confesses to double murders.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Aurilla in Alabama. Hi, Aurilla.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. We love you and love your children and watch you all the time in Morris, Alabama.
GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question? I know you`re not surprised he finally...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m happy that he has admitted trying do a little something. But I had a question about the glove and that fiasco that went on during the court. Wouldn`t the gloves, being wet with blood, shrink and be stiff if they were soaked in the blood and the leather was...
GRACE: Absolutely. The leather would clearly have shrunk. But that`s not all, Aurilla. The first thing you learn in law school, trial strategy 101 -- and I have taught it myself to law students -- never, ever, Aurilla, perform a demonstration or an experiment in court that you have not practiced. So why did the prosecution hand over their single most important evidence, the bloody glove, the murder glove, to the one person most likely in the world who would want to foul up the demonstration and ask him to put it on? Of course, it wasn`t going to fit! What could Darden do then, wrestle him to the ground and force it down?
But let`s find out what really happened, according to his long-time agent. Out to Art Harris, investigative reporter. Art, you covered the trial. You were in the courtroom. What do we learn about what why the glove didn`t fit?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s all part of the arthritis defense, Nancy. Gilbert says he went to the jail and counseled Simpson to stop taking his arthritis medication, that this would be the secret to make his hands bloat up, so if the glove were handed to him, they would, in fact, be larger than the glove, in addition to the shrinkage that likely took place. So this was a guy who, instead of the glove not fitting, you know, the glove don`t fit because the meds went down.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. And with us tonight, everybody`s favorite house guest, as he is been come to be known, Kato Kaelin. He was a witness in the `94 murder trial. He is an upcoming TV host of "Outta Bounds." Mr. Kaelin, it`s nice to see you again.
KATO KAELIN, WITNESS AT SIMPSON MURDER TRIAL: Nancy, hello. Happy day-late Mother`s Day. I know you`ll never get sick of hearing that. Happy Mother`s Day.
GRACE: Where`s your hair? I still think of you with a long shag. What happened?
KAELIN: I rented it out.
GRACE: Listen, what do you think about this book? Do you think there`s any truth to it?
KAELIN: You know what? It`s amazing that this guy is writing a book. Why did he not, having a good heart, go and tell anybody this? And to write a book about something that he may be part of helping a murderer get away, I think it`s pathetic.
GRACE: Well, wasn`t this after the trial?
KAELIN: Oh, but still, after the trial, but he knew -- you know, he`s telling -- giving O.J. advice about the -- Don`t take your medication. That`s during the trial. And as you know, that became a huge part of the trial.
GRACE: You`re right.
KAELIN: I mean, Johnnie Cochran came up with the saying, and like you said, I put it in my note, I know also you don`t ask a question you don`t know the answer to. And I think that was probably one of the biggest things that happened in the trial. And the jury -- I was sitting there. I know. They loved O.J., and when they heard that, that was just another thing to say, You know what? I don`t think he`s guilty. And the prosecution on that one, Nancy, as you know, blew it. It backfired.
GRACE: What was the reaction in the courtroom, Kato Kaelin, when the glove seemingly did not fit?
KAELIN: Well, as you know, when I was in the courtroom, first of all -- and I`m not making this up, Nancy -- people on the jury, a few of them, would wave -- when I testified for six days, they would wave to him when he walked in and he`d wave back. And I -- this is a guy who was up for a double homicide, and I was just amazed, going, This is pathetic.
GRACE: OK. Let me ask you this...
KAELIN: The reason for having celebrity (INAUDIBLE) that`s just amazing.
GRACE: Let me ask you this. Regarding his alleged confession, high on pot and Ambien, did you ever know Simpson to smoke pot and take Ambien?
KAELIN: Absolutely not. And in that one, there was a woman who worked for O.J., her name was Michelle, she would make a juicer for him. I`m not, you know, validating O.J., but he was sort of into that health kick because he had a machine he was repping at the time called the Juicer and he would drink, like, carrot juice. So as far as the pot...
GRACE: That`s really interesting.
KAELIN: ... I don`t know about that. But we knew -- I think they did test his hair and they did not find any drugs in his hair.
GRACE: Who would...
KAELIN: That was a big part of the trial.
GRACE: Who would "they" be? Who tested his hair?
KAELIN: That was part of the trial, if you remember.
GRACE: OK.
KAELIN: They had to take hair samples.
GRACE: Let me go back to Art Harris very quickly, investigative reporter. This whole allegation or suggestion that Simpson, O.J. Simpson, is into clean living?? I don`t think so. What about it, Art Harris? You know about that. You investigated it at the time of the murder trial.
HARRIS: Nancy, one of the things that he and Nicole did was party, and they partied with a lot of cocaine. I interviewed the limo drivers who took him around, and there were a number of friends we talked to. And it was one of those things where, you know, sure, maybe he -- you know, he does health by day, but he was partying by night and...
GRACE: Yes, used the juice to wash down the Ambien. To -- hold on. Isn`t it true, Art Harris, that it was investigated, the allegation was investigated that just before the double murders, O.J. Simpson had purchased drugs?
HARRIS: That was investigated, Nancy. And you know, the question also was he was sweating profusely that night, a lot of testimony that would suggest that he`d ingested something on the way to the airport, which is where, you know, he supposedly took the knife. This knife is a fascinating thing.
GRACE: Out to the lines. John in California. Hi, John.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. I just wanted to ask if anybody has talked to his kids, if they`ve gotten a comment to see what they think about their father now.
GRACE: Out to Gloria Allred. She is the former Brown family attorney. Gloria, it`s nice to see you again. What do you think...
GLORIA ALLRED, FORMER BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: You, too, Nancy.
GRACE: ... about these allegations? And I wonder if his family knows about them yet.
ALLRED: Well, they`ve been certainly widely publicized, especially over the weekend, Nancy. I would say, as to the allegation that -- let`s say, for example, about the glove, I think it`s -- kind of hard to believe because it appears that Christopher Darden decided on the spot to ask O.J. Simpson to try on the glove. And your earlier caller was right on. The glove would have been much smaller because of the dried blood and wouldn`t have fit for that reason, and probably that`s an experiment that should not have been conducted.
GRACE: Gloria, Gloria, apparently, there were number of leaks within the prosecution camp. It seemed to me that Johnnie Cochran and his team knew every move the state was about to take and they were ready for it. They had so many preemptive strikes. They knew what was about to happen, it seemed to me, from watching the trial every day. So I don`t think that it is outlandish that at some point, they would have asked Simpson to try on the glove.
ALLRED: Well, they may have imagined that perhaps that would happen, even if they didn`t know, Nancy. And in addition, as to the so-called confession, you know, any confession is suspect if it`s under -- if the person making it is under the influence of alcohol and marijuana. On the other hand, do we really care if he confessed or not? We know he did it. A civil jury found against Mr. Simpson that he -- and found that he was responsible for the wrongful deaths of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, may they rest in peace. So we know that for a fact.
And did he confess afterwards? Maybe, maybe not. He certainly couldn`t have been re-prosecuted because of double jeopardy. But certainly, if Mike Gilbert knew that, why didn`t he present it to the lawyers at least in the civil case? Maybe they could have used it.
GRACE: I think I can understand partially why. Do I agree with it? No. Have I seen it before? Yes.
To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author. The reality is, these people stick together. It`s almost like a battered wife syndrome. The wife keeps going back and going back. No matter how much Simpson used his friends and mistreated them, and no matter what they knew, they stuck by him. They stuck with him. And the reality is, according to this book, both Gilbert and his Bronco buddy, A.C. Cowlings, they both knew that Simpson committed the murders.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, it`s very interesting. When you are in the presence of somebody who is sociopathic, they`re very charming and very seductive, and sometimes people are very vulnerable to that, people you wouldn`t think are. And yet, they get sucked right in there.
GRACE: And isn`t it true -- back to Ken Baker with E! Entertainment Television -- this guy, Gilbert, the long-time agent, asked A.C. Cowlings about this? We both know now that he did it. Did you see A.C. Cowlings`s alleged response?
BAKER: Well, A.C. Cowlings is still -- was always defending O.J. Simpson, and to this day, and in fact, all of O.J.`s still confidants calling Mike Gilbert a whack job and saying he`s making up all this.
GRACE: Well, seems to me that in the book, A.C. Cowlings is portrayed as saying, yes, he did it, but the trial is over. She`s dead, and now it would only hurt the children if we come forward with this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: We`re sending police. What`s he doing? Is he threatening you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s (DELETED) going nuts.
911 OPERATOR: Has he threatened you in any way, or is he harassing you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: You`re going to hear him in a minute. He`s about to come in again.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Just stay on the line.
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: I don`t want to stay on the line. He`s going to beat the (DELETED) out of me!
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. Just stay on the line so we can know what`s going on until the police get there, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there`s a new O.J. Simpson book out today. Author Mike Gilbert, an ex-friend and memorabilia dealer, claims that Simpson was high on marijuana and confessed to killing his ex-wife after he was acquitted. He also told O.J. how to bloat his hands so the gloves wouldn`t fit. Remember the term, "If they don`t fit, you must acquit."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: According to his long-time agent, O.J. Simpson, high on pot and Ambien, confesses to double murder.
Out to the lines. Jacob in California. Hi, Jacob.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. First of all, you do good work, Nancy. And my question is, has he ever tooken a lie-detector test in the murder trial or (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Oh, oh, Jacob, are talking about Simpson taking a lie-detector or the author?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J.
GRACE: Oh, yes. Art Harris, isn`t it true that he took a lie- detector test and he made, like, a negative-42, some outrageous, outrageous result? And it, of course, couldn`t come in in the criminal trial because it had not been stipulated to ahead of time?. Was that the correct score?
HARRIS: I don`t remember the exact score, Nancy, but of course, those things are not allowed, you know, in a trial. But they were conveniently done outside, I believe, to find out if -- how he would do if he had to take one.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Alex Sanchez trial lawyer out of New York, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle. Out to you, Alex Sanchez. A lie detector test, polygraph, can come in even in a criminal case if both parties stipulate beforehand it can come in. Obviously, that didn`t happen in this case. But we know of him failing a lie detector test.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And maybe that`s why he agreed in advance or didn`t agree in advance to allow that test to come into evidence.
GRACE: Another shrewd move on Johnnie Cochran`s part.
SANCHEZ: Anybody charged with a serious crime like murder would be very reluctant, I believe, to take a lie detector test because if it comes out, as it`s coming out now, it has very negative consequences.
GRACE: Horribly negative, Anne Bremner.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, absolutely. I mean, he`s not going to be on the cover of "Good Housekeeping," like you just were, Nancy, with your twins. I mean, it`s terrible. And that leaked out immediately and it was very damaging.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SYDNEY SIMPSON, DAUGHTER: My dad`s an (DELETED)
911 OPERATOR: This is the policeman. How may I help you?
SYDNEY SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: I`m sorry. I`m not understanding what you`re saying.
SYDNEY SIMPSON: He doesn`t (DELETED) love me!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: How could anybody say I could have killed Nicole? How could anybody say that? Don`t they understand that I would jump in front of a bullet for Nicole? I`d jump in front of a train if it touched (ph) any member of my family.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: O.J. Simpson, high on pot and Ambien, confesses to the double murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.
Straight out to the lines. To Christa in North Carolina. Hold on. It`s Dee in Ohio. Hi, Dee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. It`s two parts. Even risking a double jeopardy, is there a statute of limitations for murder? And secondly, what responsibility or consequences could this agent have for not having come forward with this when he learned of it?
GRACE: Very quickly to the lawyers, Alex Sanchez, Anne Bremner. Of course, there`s no statute of limitations on murder, but double jeopardy totally precludes, Anne Bremner, any future prosecution on these murders.
BREMNER: Absolutely. O.J. Simpson is scot-free. Doesn`t matter if he confessed today.
GRACE: And Alex Sanchez, response?
SANCHEZ: Yes. You know something? It`s a shame because even if there was a somehow a videotape of O.J. Simpson...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No, no, no. The next question, the question regarding could Gilbert, the long-time agent, be held responsible?
SANCHEZ: No, he cannot be held responsible because he`s under no duty to report that information to the police. He`s not like a police officer or an agent of law enforcement. He`s just an ordinary citizen, and as such, has no duty whatsoever.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911 Emergency.
NICOLE SIMPSON, O.J. SIMPSON`S FORMER WIFE: Could you get someone over here now, to 325 Gretna Green? He`s back. Please?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. What does he look like?
SIMPSON: He`s O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record. Could you just send somebody over here?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. What is he doing there?
SIMPSON: He just drove up again. Could you just send somebody over?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Wait a minute. What kind of car is he in?
SIMPSON: He`s in a white Bronco. But first of all he broke the back door down to get in before.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Wait a minute. What`s your name?
SIMPSON: Nicole Simpson.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Is he the sportscaster or whatever?
SIMPSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Is he talking to you?
SIMPSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Are you locked in a room or something?
SIMPSON: No. He can come right in. I`m not going where the kids are because the kids are.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you think he`s going to hit you?
SIMPSON: I don`t know, I just.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Stay on the line. Don`t hang it up, OK?
SIMPSON: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: According to O.J. Simpson`s long-time agent, Simpson high on pot and Ambien confesses to the double murders. We also learn why the glove didn`t fit in a court of law in front of a jury and exactly how Simpson has managed to scam the system avoiding $42 million he now owes to the victims` families.
Let`s go out to Gloria Allred. When you hear how he is actually making thousands of dollars, Gloria, but not paying the victims` families, what if anything can be done?
GLORIA ALLRED, FORMER BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, that`s a great question, Nancy. And if, in fact, Mike Gilbert helped O.J. Simpson avoid paying that multimillion dollar judgment against him, that was awarded to the family of -- the estate of Ron Goldman and the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson, then it potentially -- the Goldmans and the estate of the Simpsons could sue Mike Gilbert for fraudulent conveyance, for conspiracy to defraud creditors if, in fact, they have the facts to support that.
GRACE: Well, you know what? You can`t squeeze blood out of a turnip. Doesn`t Gilbert have his own IRS issues?
ALLRED: Well, he may. But I`m saying they could potentially do it. Whether they`d be successful and whether they would be able to.
GRACE: Hey, Gloria!
ALLRED: . collect on (INAUDIBLE) such judgment is another issue.
GRACE: Gloria, let me tell you, if the IRS is after him, they know all about this little book. And they are going to be watching the proceeds and then swoop in and grab it all. You know how the IRS is.
Out to Mike Brooks. Mike, I want to talk to you about the alleged confession. It is not uncommon, very, actually, common that at some point criminal`s blab. They can`t stop themselves.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: No, they can`t stop themselves, Nancy. I mean, how many cases have you been before and the number of cases I`ve had where somebody will eventually run their mouth. And the other with Mike Gilbert, too, Nancy, you know, he said that he`d learned all of this two weeks after the trial.
But you know, if he -- sure he just happened to give him some advice of not taking his arthritis medication because he didn`t know anything about this? That`s a bunch of crap, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to the lines, to Christa in North Carolina. Hi, Christa.
CHRISTA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CHRISTA: Well, first of all, you rock.
GRACE: Thank you.
CHRISTA: The other question is, Dee in Ohio had my question, actually, but if that`s not obstruction of justice, what is?
GRACE: Interesting question. Back out to Alex Sanchez, Anne Bremner, in our jurisprudence, our justice system, there is no Good Samaritan requirement. You don`t have to help anybody if you don`t want to and you don`t have to help the prosecution, you don`t have to help the victims` families. You can sit back on your thumb and do absolutely nothing and under our constitution that`s OK.
Yes, no, Alex Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, that`s absolutely -- unless you have a duty to come forward and provide some type of assistance. You know, that call is very sharp. The person that`s facing possible jail right now is Mr. Gilbert himself for providing this phony defense to O.J. Simpson after the prosecutors believe that.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me see Sanchez. Let me see Sanchez right now.
SANCHEZ: If the.
GRACE: Whoa. So you being a defense attorney are taking issue with someone providing a phony defense. Well, I`ll be darned.
SANCHEZ: No, no, I do not believe that.
GRACE: The pot`s not calling the kettle black.
SANCHEZ: No, no. I don`t believe any defense attorney should ever provide a phony defense. But if Gilbert did what he says he did and he encouraged the witness to lie or come up with this phony defense in court, he could be brought up on charges for obstruction of justice himself.
GRACE: OK. You know what? In my dreams, Anne Bremner. Telling Simpson not to take his arthritis drugs. He`s never going to be prosecuted for that. Come on. He just outwitted the state. It`s just that simple. They were outfoxed.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they were. And -- but the thing is, you know, when money talks, you know, the truth is silent. Look at this. This guy is saying that Nicole came out with a knife and then O.J. said if she hadn`t come up with a knife it wouldn`t happen? You have to wonder about the voracity of what he was saying.
GRACE: To Dr. Zhongxue Hua, Union County in New Jersey medical examiner, the effect of pot plus Ambien, would that make you lose your inhibitions? Would you say things you wouldn`t normally say, doctor?
DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION CO., N.J. MEDICAL EXAMINER: It`s fairly common. The medical effect of alcohol and marijuana, it`s what we call distant inhibition. Putting to layman`s term, it`s basically putting you into loose talk, talk a lot. More significantly talking with something you usually won`t talk about when you`re fully conscious of what you`re doing.
GRACE: Interesting, doctor. With me Dr. Zhingxue Hua, medical examiner.
Back to Kato Kaelin, a witness in the 1994 murder trial. He`s an upcoming TV host in the show "Outta Bounds."
Mr. Kaelin, what happened the last time you saw Simpson?
KATO KAELIN, WITNESS IN SIMPSON`S 1994 MURDER TRIAL, UPCOMING TV HOST, OUTTA BOUNDS: Well, first of all, you`re playing on these clips. I was at that 911 call and it`s sort of ironic that I was the one that entered there late. There was all -- I saw the car, the Bronco out in front with the doors wide open and the lights on.
I don`t know what was going on and I just wanted you to mention that I saw O.J. yelling and I didn`t see the doors break down but I remember Nicole and I hammering the door later that night after he left and -- now getting back to your question?
GRACE: The last time you saw Simpson, when was it?
KAELIN: The last time I saw him was during the civil trial, Nancy. And sort of embarrassing, we`re both in the men`s room together and I had just finished and he was waiting to talk to me and I just washed my hands and I scooted out there and just waited back in the deposition room and that`s the last contact.
It`s funny, because every time someone sees O.J. Simpson they always have to call and tell me, hey, guess who we just saw? And I -- you know, it`s conversation I don`t really care about.
GRACE: You know, Kato Kaelin, I remember distinctly when you were on the witness stand. I was watching your testimony, your cross examination. At the time of the trial, the criminal trial, did you believe Simpson was guilty?
KAELIN: I was tossing back and forth thinking it`s impossible because I had thought he was in Chicago. And then all this evidence started coming out and my mind started thinking, you know what? I think he could be guilty and then -- but anything that was asked of me I.
GRACE: OK. I`ve got to ask you, I`ve got to ask you a tough question.
KAELIN: Yes, go ahead.
GRACE: Even thinking that he was guilty or could be guilty of double murder, you remained friends for sometime?
KAELIN: No. Not at all. I never.
GRACE: Explain. Because this bunch of hangers-on clearly -- you saw what just happened down in Vegas.
KAELIN: You know, it`s a great question, Nancy.
GRACE: He`s got this group of people around him. I don`t understand it.
KAELIN: Nancy, I -- I`m a loving guy. I swore to you, I wanted those two to always be loved. When there was fighting I tried to make them kiss and anything. And the kids love me. They named the dog Kato after me. I seriously was, I hope, a bright spot.
I had no contact at all. I moved out immediately. I moved in with other friends. And I had no other contact. And I`m not one of the hanger- ons and I -- it`s -- you`re right. He has some pathetic friends. I mean even Mike Gilbert saying he -- for Marcus Allen to meet O.J., he was infatuated with him. He thought he was no longer an ordinary person.
You know? It`s just -- you`re right. It`s pathetic people and I think the more these people that are trying to make money off others and their memorabilia, it`s -- for O.J., it`s just a terrible thing and I was out the door, Nancy. That`s the truth.
GRACE: Back to Art Harris, investigative reporter. Art, he always had a gang, a posse around him. And to this day, he still does. It`s incredible.
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, ARTHARRIS.COM: He`s a charmer, Nancy, and something charismatic about him.
GRACE: Charmer? Charmer? Have you seen those hands?
HARRIS: You know? He`s going to charm you to death?
GRACE: Have you seen those hands? Their size of two Virginia hams. I could just see the hands around Nicole Brown`s neck.
HARRIS: Well, yes, Nancy, and he is -- you know, he is dining out on this and has been for many years and will continue to make money under the table as long as friends will help him.
GRACE: And the reality is, even if Gilbert`s assertions are true in his book, there`s not a darn thing the justice system can do now. Frankly, I don`t know if it would have made any difference to that jury.
When we come back, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishing from her own home. Husband/cop Drew Peterson, prime suspect. The drowning of wife number three ruled homicide. Tonight, secret grand jury meets behind closed doors.
But now we salute our troops.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, this message is for Justin Karchmeyer, Marine, stationed in, I believe, it`s Basra. And I want to thank you for your service, Justin. God be you while you`re there and expand this to the rest of the troops. You`re doing God`s work out there and want you all home safely, job completed. Good luck.
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ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: One by one, they`ve been going before a secret grand jury. Family members and friends, that is, of former cop Drew Peterson, his missing fourth wife, his deceased third wife, and even his second wife. That grand jury investigating the disappearance of young mom Stacy Peterson and the bathtub drowning of Kathleen Savio.
Just about everyone keeping mum on their testimony but reports reveal Stacy Peterson`s father shedding some light on just what the special grand jury wants to know. He says he was questioned about his daughter`s state of mind before vanishing, if she talked about marital drama with Drew, and if she would ever leave her children behind.
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GRACE: Family members go to a secret grand jury and testify under oath in the Drew Peterson investigation.
I want to go out first to "America`s Most Wanted" correspondent John Leiberman. And before I throw you a question, John, everyone, we are taking your calls live. I want to congratulate you, John, along with John Walsh, "America`s Most Wanted, under their 1,000th, repeat, 1,000th, capture this week.
Congratulations, friend.
OK. Now I`m going to hit you with Peterson.
JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: OK.
GRACE: What`s going on in that grand jury?
LEIBERMAN: Well, first of all, thank you very much, Nancy. We are proud of this accomplishment.
You know, this investigation is moving slowly but it is moving. The grand jury continues to meet once a week. We know that relatives of Drew Peterson`s second wife and third wife have been called in front of the grand jury. Probably the headline that has come out of this is that Kathleen Savio, Drew`s third wife, the one found murdered in the bathtub, her former boyfriend was called in front of the grand jury. OK?
We assume that he was asked his first person recollections of Kathleen Savio`s state of mind during that time. We also know that he spoke to Kathleen Savio a couple of days before she was found murdered in the bathtub.
Now Drew Peterson`s attorney has come out and said, well, I sure hope that this former boyfriend went with an attorney and I sure hope that he took the fifth when he went in front of the grand jury. This is another way of Drew Peterson`s sort of deflecting attention away from his alleged involvement in any of this and pointing toward this former boyfriend.
GRACE: Well, you know, in the words of Shakespeare, me thinks thou protest too much.
Out to Sue Doman. This is Kathleen Savio`s, wife number three, sister. Sue, thank you for being with us. I find it very interesting.
SUE DOMAN, KATHLEEN SAVIO`S SISTER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. That suddenly with nobody asking him, Drew Peterson defense attorney starts saying, hey, the ex-boyfriend of Kathleen Savio goes to the grand jury without a lawyer, doesn`t take the fifth. I don`t know. I think that`s something to be admired.
DOMAN: Well, you know, I expected, you know, him to do-- or have him do something like that, Nancy. I know Steve and he`s just a great guy. He took care of my sister as well as we did. Very close to him. I mean, he has been through really a very hard time. They`d never broke up. They love each other. They loved each other very much.
No talk about marriage or anything but that`s another P.O. for Drew to go ahead and push it on someone else.
GRACE: You know, to me, is when you point the finger at somebody else, you`ve got four other fingers pointing back at you. So why he suddenly decided, to you, Dr. Robi Ludwig, when nobody asked him through his lawyer to suggest that Savio`s former boyfriend had something to do with her suspicious dry bathtub drowning death. I find that very odd.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "TILL DEATH DO US PART": Well, look, he`s looking to pass the buck and so -- listen, you know that with any type of homicide, it`s usually people close by. And this was somebody to point the finger at. He`s just trying to get over it. This is what he does.
GRACE: To John Leiberman, what about Peterson`s recent -- well, it wasn`t an arrest. He was pulled over for speeding on the way to a -- let me see, a 22-year-old girl`s home.
LEIBERMAN: Yes.
GRACE: Dare I ask why he was going to another woman, half his age, home?
LEIBERMAN: He claims he got a call in the middle of the night to pick this woman up and drive her somewhere. He claims that it`s not a girlfriend.
GRACE: If she could make that call. She should have called a taxi.
LEIBERMAN: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, he didn`t get cited. He got a warning, but we do know that Drew will actually be back in court tomorrow with his attorney asking for those infamous 11 guns back again. This time, he`s going to ask a judge to close.
GRACE: I want to go back to the 22-year-old, Mr. Leiberman. What was the reason for getting a call in the middle of the night?
LEIBERMAN: Well, he`s never really made it clear. He just said that this was a friend of his who needed some help, needed a ride somewhere and he never actually made clear what their relationship is.
GRACE: OK. To Kathleen Savio, this is wife number three, remember, the young lady that was found dead in a dry bathtub of drowning? Her body covered in bruises. As I recall, there may have been eight bruises or lacerations to the head alone.
Sue Doman is with us, Kathleen`s sister. What do you make of him going to help out a 22-year-old girl in the middle of the night? He`s such a Good Samaritan, isn`t when?
DOMAN: Oh, you know, I just can`t believe it, Nancy. I would think that he would be more concerned about his missing wife and the children. I just.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Bill in Ohio. Hi, Bill.
BILL, OHIO RESIDENT: Hello, Nancy. You have the beautiful most children.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
BILL: But my question is, have they checked in his helicopter for any DNA?
GRACE: Bill, how old are you?
BILL: I`m only 9 years old.
GRACE: You know what? You`re pretty darn smart, little guy. What do you want to be when you grow up?
BILL: I`m thinking about being a wrestler.
GRACE: Excellent.
Let me go to Jon Leiberman. Can you answer that question? What about the helicopter?
LEIBERMAN: Yes, that`s a great question. They actually looked in his plane. We`ve been out to the hangar where he kept his plane. And that was a focus in the investigation at one point.
GRACE: You know what? Bill in Ohio, I have one tiny bit of advice since you didn`t ask. Use your brain, not your brawn, little boy.
Out to Mary in New York. Hi, Mary.
MARY, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi. How are you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What is your question?
MARY: Happy Mother`s Day.
GRACE: Oh, you know what? Thank you very much. I never thought anybody would say that to me. What`s your question, dear?
MARY: I think that`s terrific. Those bones that they found last week, was there a connection between them and the death of Stacy?
GRACE: No, I do not believe there were.
Jon Leiberman, was there?
LEIBERMAN: No, there weren`t. No, no, they have ruled that those bones had nothing to do with this case.
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DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN WIFE STACY PETERSON`S DISAPPEARANCE: The media pretty much has me painted as a sinister character. Lurking around underneath the rocks and stuff but basically I`m just a dad raising kids. I got kids in the car, you moron. So I`m just a regular guy doing regular guy stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Family members come before a secret grand jury in the Drew Peterson investigation. The investigation into not only disappearance of Stacy Peterson, but also the unusual death of his third wife Kathleen Savio.
Out to the lines, Vivian in Arkansas, hi, Vivian.
VIVIAN, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
VIVIAN: I was just wondering if he could have put her body in a dumpster and she could be in a landfill somewhere because he was going down that night.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, we have seen that on many, many occasions.
BROOKS: We have, Nancy. In fact, in this particular case, early on, those kind of areas around his house were checked by law enforcement. They`ve checked a lot of different places by land and by air and we just saw the one canal that they were on quite sometime.
GRACE: And to Sue Doman, Kathleen Savio`s sister, do you think there will ever be an arrest?
DOMAN: You know, I just pray every day. I don`t know. I just pray every day. And we hope that the media keeps this out.
GRACE: To Alex Sanchez, Anne Bremner. Anne, cases can go to sleep for a while and then be revived successfully.
BREMNER: Well, absolutely. But facts are stubborn things, Nancy. Right now, there aren`t any facts really that support any kind of prosecution and remember that first autopsy? The coroner`s result was accidental death.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First Class Matthew Pionk, 30, Superior, Wisconsin, killed, Iraq, on second tour, awarded the Bronze Star and Army Commendation medal. A kind soul, a humanitarian, loved time with family, friends, basketball, hunting, restoring old cars. Leaves behind Parents Dewayne and Sandy, two brothers, one sister and grieving widow Melanie. Three children, Dylan, Ashley and Brandon.
Matthew Pionk, American hero.
Thanks to our guests and tonight, a special good night from extraordinary parent winner. You met her on Mother`s Day, Michigan friends of the show, Linda and Jenna. She is extraordinary and what an example for her little girl.
See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
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