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Nancy Grace
Dead Newborn Found in Vegas Casino Restroom
Aired May 13, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: A shocking discovery at an exclusive hotel and resort casino on the Vegas strip. Just yards away from hotel guests and high-rolling gamblers -- they`re from all over the world -- a baby boy just hours old, umbilical cord and placenta still attached, found buried inside a casino trash can. The baby, wrapped in towels, a pillow case and one of the resort`s plastic bags, did not survive. Tonight, the investigation. Who left their own infant baby boy to die on the Vegas strip?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Las Vegas hotel employee discovered something shocking on Mother`s Day, a newborn baby dead in the trash. The baby boy was found inside a hotel gift bag at the Excalibur hotel casino around 9:40 PM Sunday, an intact placenta and umbilical cord still attached. Police are calling this a homicide investigation and are searching hotel records in the hopes of tracking down the mother of the newborn. An autopsy`s also scheduled, as police want to know if the baby was alive before being placed in the trash inside the women`s restroom.
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GRACE: And tonight, the FBI investigating the apparent drowning of a vivacious and beautiful nurse and mom of two who mysteriously plunged off a luxury cruise ship, the Norwegian Dawn. The apparent plunge took place during a violent storm 45 miles off the U.S. coast, but now details emerging about her rocky relationship with her traveling companion, her long-time boyfriend.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A New Jersey mom headed to Bermuda on a cruise ship with her boyfriend vanishes just four hours after the ship leaves port. Authorities say 46-year-old Mindy Jordan (ph) apparently fell overboard off the coast of Atlantic City. Reports first circulated she may have fallen after trying to climb from one balcony to another. Investigators plan on interviewing witnesses to determine if Jordan did, indeed, fall, or if she jumped or was pushed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister`s 4-foot-10, 98 pounds. It would not have been easy for her to get up over a railing, nor is that in character for her.
Her children, obviously, must be absolutely devastated, and that`s our number one priority. But we have -- you know, we want them to find her. We hope -- we`re still hoping that they find her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) is she dead? What he told me on the phone was she fell over the railing and fell to something down on a lower deck, and that he went running to try to save her, but she lost her grip and fell. I said, Are you trying to tell me they didn`t even find her body?
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GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. A shocking discovery at an exclusive hotel and resort casino there on the Vegas strip, just yards away from hotel guests and high- rolling gamblers from all over the world, a baby boy just hours old.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know why a person would -- would not do the right thing and take a newborn child to a place where they could be cared for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s an investigation that could take several weeks to piece together, whether a baby boy found at the Excalibur hotel on Mother`s Day was murdered or miscarried, a question police say the coroner`s office is working on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After they have conducted their autopsy and done their appropriate tests to determine if that fetus was actually viable, in other words, if that fetus took a breath...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lieutenant Lou Roberts (ph) says the baby was found in a trash bin in a casino restroom about 9:30 Sunday night, the umbilical cord and a portion of the placenta still present. Officers are now coming through hotel surveillance video to see if anyone can be seen walking into the bathroom with a bundle in her arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe you saw something that looked out of the ordinary, you know, and saw somebody go into a bathroom that looked out of the ordinary. You know, give us a call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out of the ordinary? Well, that`s a euphemism. A baby boy, an infant boy, found dead in the casino trash, just yards away from all of the exclusive goings on there on the Vegas strip, high-rolling gamblers, resort guests, and the baby is dead inside the trash there in the casino bathroom.
Out to Teresa Yuan, reporter with CNN affiliate KVVU. She`s joining us there outside the resort. Teresa, what do we know?
TERESA YUAN, KVVU: Well, Nancy, what we do know is that this baby was a full-term baby. Also, I just asked the officers about the ethnicity of the baby. They`ve ruled out that the baby is African-American. Lieutenant Roberts is telling us that the baby was either white or Hispanic. Also, what he`s telling us is that when the baby was discovered, it was found probably not too long after the mother had given birth to him -- Nancy.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist. Are they making that determination quickly, Doctor, because the umbilical and the placenta was attached? And how, if we can, can we determine how long the baby had been dead?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: They`re going to take the temperature of the baby to see if it`s assumed room temperature. They`re going to see if it`s begun to be malodorous or started to decompose. When they say the baby was born recently, it suggests the baby may well have still been warm and shows no evidence of decomposition.
GRACE: Back to Teresa Yuan with KVVU. She`s joining us there right outside the resort casino the Excalibur. Teresa, couple of quick questions. Who exactly found the baby?
YUAN: We`re told by cops that it was a hotel employee that found the baby. This all happened, again, around 9:40 off the casino floor. And as you know, that`s a very busy area. That`s the first floor of the hotel, and it was in the women`s restroom. The baby was found in a trash can, and again, was found in an Excalibur gift bag, a pillow case and towels.
But and Lieutenant Roberts says not sure whether or not the mother was actually staying here or if it was someone else that was staying at a different resort or could have been a tourist. Also, there`s also talk maybe it could have been a hotel worker. But I got to let you know, Nancy, that they -- he says he`s kind of -- they`re leaning towards a different direction because they did talk to the hotel employees, and it`d be pretty obvious if someone was pregnant almost nine months, and all of a sudden, 10 minutes later, they`re not showing.
GRACE: Well, out to Kristen Flowers, news anchor with KXNT AM 840. The theory that the mother, who we assume is the killer, came from a different resort and left the baby there -- that doesn`t make sense. If the pillow case is from the Excalibur, the plastic bag is from the Excalibur, you should be able to match up the towel to that hotel, as well -- why would somebody come from another hotel and get their mitts on the gift bag, the pillow case and the towel from the Excalibur? What are they -- they`re walking around with the baby, and they manage to raid the laundry closet before they dispose of the baby`s body? That doesn`t make any sense. They either had to work there or they were staying there.
KRISTEN FLOWERS, KXNT AM 840: Absolutely, that doesn`t make sense. The towel -- the pillowcase, the towel and the gift bag are all pointing to that this person was at the Excalibur. But we were told by Metro Lieutenant Lou Roberts earlier that they are reviewing tapes right now to see if anyone saw anything suspicious, but the difficult thing about this case is unless the mother actually comes forwards or if somebody saw this happen, it`s going to be very hard to find that mother.
GRACE: So wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. To Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author. I disagree. No offense to the police, but you can`t blink in a casino without getting caught on tape. We don`t have to be able to have a video inside the bathroom where the baby was disposed. We need to see that general time, from the last cleaning shift to the cleaning shift that discovered the baby boy, who went into that bathroom. That`s all we`ve got to see.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Exactly. (INAUDIBLE) the perfect place because there`s so much video. And also, this is a neonaticide, which means that the baby was killed within 24 hours, and therefore, you only have a 24-hour range to look at. So it`s very easy.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s go out to Lisa in Texas. Hi, Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I heard the investigator say that it was only partial of the placenta that was connected to the baby. And I was wondering, have they checked the local hospitals? Because if you give birth and there`s a portion of your placenta still left in, you`re at high risk for hemorrhaging.
GRACE: Excellent idea. What about that, Dr. Michael Arnall? If a portion of the placenta is still inside the mother, what complications could arise?
ARNALL: That`s exactly correct. Retained placenta parts frequently result in hemorrhaging, so that the emergency room would be the first place to check for individuals with retained placenta parts, if that`s exactly correct that the placenta is not intact.
GRACE: What about it, Teresa Yuan with KVVU? What do we know about the placenta?
YUAN: According to Lou Roberts, he was telling us that it was a full placenta and also that, obviously, the umbilical cord was attached. Also wanted to add something, too, Nancy. He also let us know that they`ve been working with the other casinos, trying to find possibly blood-stained, you know, sheets, towels. They`ve been working with surrounding hotels, obviously, Excalibur also. He said they were working on a lead that there were some blood stains on a hotel room floor, but that panned out to be nothing. But obviously, there must have been some type of, you know, mess out there, and hopefully, they can link that to what happened on Monday -- excuse me, on Sunday night.
GRACE: To Kristen Flowers with KXNT. Kristen, she`s absolutely correct. If you go to one of the hotel rooms and you find evidence of a birth there or you find towels, sheets and so forth missing from a room, that would suggest that the guest in that room is responsible. What do we know about that, the investigation within the hotel security?
FLOWERS: Well, right now, since it is such an expansive hotel and as the other reporter was saying, they are searching other hotels, this is going to be a couple of days` worth of investigating. And they are checking the local emergency rooms and also all of our emergency urgent (ph) clinics just to make sure that any calls came in, anyone knew of anything about this. And also, security staff and employees at the Excalibur were saying that they were not given any information about any emergency phone calls made about any pregnant ladies in the hotel.
GRACE: Joining us right now, Ken Braunstein. He is a casino security expert. I want to go out to him, joining us from Reno. Ken, exactly how big is the Excalibur?
KEN BRAUNSTEIN, CASINO SECURITY EXPERT: When it was built in 1990, it had 4,038 rooms.
GRACE: Holy moley!
BRAUNSTEIN: Holy moley.
GRACE: And has it -- have there been additions since that time?
BRAUNSTEIN: There have been some minor changes, and I don`t know the exact total number of rooms, but it`s still over 4,000.
GRACE: OK, Ken, tell me about the security within the Excalibur that you know of, and I want to hear about surveillance cameras. This is apparently on the first floor, the first floor bathroom.
BRAUNSTEIN: The -- first of all, there cannot be surveillance cameras in bathrooms...
GRACE: Right.
BRAUNSTEIN: ... but most bathrooms in any casino property, public bathrooms, will have cameras that can tell who goes in the bathroom and who comes out of the bathroom.
GRACE: Well, doesn`t it seem to you like it would make sense that you could see who`s going in and out of the bathroom, or is there a possibility you only get the back of the head shot of someone going in and out? Certainly, they wouldn`t be that negligent, to have a camera positioned so you can only see -- well, of course, you could see them coming out of the door, correct?
BRAUNSTEIN: I would think that they could see the person`s face, but you have to realize that they have literally thousands of cameras that are going simultaneously.
GRACE: That`s a good thing, in my book.
Out to the lines. Jeri in Arkansas. Hi, Jeri.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Hope you had a great Mother`s Day.
GRACE: You know, I did, my very first Mother`s Day. I never dreamed that someone would say to me, "Happy Mother`s Day." Thank you for asking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. When are they going to start prosecuting these mothers for murder?
GRACE: Excellent question, Jeri. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Ray Giudice, out of New York, trial lawyer Doug Burns. To you, Ray Giudice. This case and many cases like it are full of defenses for defense attorneys like you on a silver platter.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They are, Nancy. And in fact, your investigator at the beginning of the show brought up the issue of viability. The coroner`s going to have to show that this child actually breathed a breath and that a heart beat to even make it a life that a murder can be committed upon. So you may not even have a murder. You may have a wrongful disposal of a body.
GRACE: Well, Doug Burns, if the baby was not born alive or if there was a miscarriage, why not call 911? I recall very distinctly the moment that I realized that I was having trouble at one point in my pregnancy. I immediately -- I didn`t even bother to wait on 911. I went out the door, hailed a cab and went straight in for medical help. So if this woman felt she was miscarrying, as Ray Giudice suggests, why not call 911?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I agree with you. I mean, I think what this...
GRACE: I mean, your first impulse is not to go to a casino bathroom and dump the baby.
BURNS: Absolutely. First of all, you guys make two good points. Number one, there`s a tremendous amount of surveillance in casinos, and I think that makes this much easier to solve. Number two, your point is, of course, there are safe haven laws, and they have them in Nevada, as well. And the point is, it`s so sad that people panic and get crazy. I don`t see it as, you know, a terrible, horrific murder. I see it as a panic and...
GRACE: Oh, really?
BURNS: No. I see it somebody who totally panicked and...
GRACE: Well, I happen to know...
BURNS: ... they should have gone to the hospital.
GRACE: ... that you have two beautiful young boys, now almost grown men.
BURNS: My little baby is 21.
GRACE: Yes. And for the baby, for your son, or one of his friends, you find out they`re down there, disposed of in the trash?
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: What`s not horrific about that?
BURNS: Yes, no, I`m not sure you`re following me. Sadly and tragically, what happens is people don`t understand that there are safe haven laws, that they can go to a hospital, turn the baby in. And by the way, they can reclaim the baby later, just so that this baby can be cared for. And all I`m saying is I don`t view it as a vicious, terrible killer. I view it as somebody who totally panics.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go to Lillian Glass, psychologist and author. Panics, panics -- if it`s an adult victim, then it`s treated as murder one. If a defenseless baby is the murder victim and the body callously thrown in the trash at a hotel casino, then somehow, it`s not so bad? Well, why is that?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: No, it is bad. And I agree with you, Nancy 100 percent. And indeed, there may have been panic. There may have been somebody that came to town and left it in Vegas. You know, what stays in Vegas, remained in Vegas. And unfortunately, you know, known as Sin City -- they committed the biggest sin leaving the baby that way.
GRACE: Yes, I don`t quite understand -- I saw this in the courtroom for over 10 years, when a child or an infant is the victim, somehow the case gets treated more lightly. The plea deal is less. The punishment is less.
Out to the lines. Jeanette in Florida. Hi, Jeanette. Jeanette, are you with me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I am.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy Mother`s Day.
GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I`m wondering, most places like that have attendants in the bathroom. You know, you give money to them for giving them Kleenex or tissue. Was there one on duty in there?
GRACE: Oh, Jeanette, you are extremely observant. Back out to Teresa Yuan. Are there attendants in these restrooms?
YUAN: That`s a very good question. And usually, there are attendants in these restrooms, but not every single one has them, and especially the larger ones on the casino floor. I mean, you see them more, I would say, at the higher end or at a lounge or a club. But they`re not always inside the bathrooms, especially the larger ones on a casino floor. They`re extremely busy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby boy was found inside a hotel gift bag at the Excalibur hotel casino around 9:40 PM Sunday, an intact placenta and umbilical cord still attached.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A newborn baby found dead in the trash inside a Las Vegas casino. The newborn baby boy, with placenta and umbilical cord still attached, was found by a hotel employee on Sunday around 9:40 PM. Police are searching for the mother and are treating this case as a homicide investigation. The baby was found in a women`s restroom trash bin inside the Excalibur hotel casino, wrapped in a pillow case inside a hotel gift bag. Police say an autopsy will be done to determine if the baby was alive before being put inside the trash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Tracy in North Carolina. Hi, Tracy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I`m sitting here holding my little preemie, that I`m 41 years old and just was blessed with her on April the 9th, two months early.
GRACE: Congratulations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I met a lot of single scared moms at the Ronald McDonald House here in Winston-Salem when I was there.
GRACE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what I`m wondering is...
GRACE: You were at the Ronald McDonald House for extended stay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. And I...
GRACE: And you`re home now, right, with the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I am. I encourage everyone to participate in the Ronald McDonald House or something similar. But my question is, I know people -- it is murder. And I am (INAUDIBLE) But what I want to know is, is there any preventive maintenance? Because I know there are safe havens.
GRACE: Yes, there are.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: I want to go to the expert, Michael Morrisey, a baby safe haven expert. Our research shows three safe havens within three miles from this spot, Michael.
MICHAEL MORRISEY, BABY SAFE HAVEN EXPERT: Yes. There are hospital, police, fire stations within a couple of miles of the Excalibur that I looked on just a Google map, and this woman could have gone to either the hospital, the police or the fire station. As I say, she could put a hoodie over her head, be completely disguised under that hoodie and hand that baby to any one of the policemen, firemen or hospital workers, and we`d have none of this tonight, Nancy.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know why a person would not do the right thing and take a newborn child to a place where they could be cared for. Maybe you saw something that looked out of the ordinary, you know, and saw somebody go into a bathroom that looked out of the ordinary. You know, give us a call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you`re dealing with, you know, large hotels like that, again, we don`t know if it`s a guest of the hotel. We don`t know if it`s somebody that came off the street that did it. We don`t know if it was anybody that was there, you know, gambling in the casino. So at this point, you know, it would be unfair to say that it was a guest of the hotel until we actually know for sure if that`s the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just yards away from exclusive hotel guests and high-rolling gamblers, the body of an infant baby boy found thrown away in a trash bin there at the Excalibur on the Vegas strip.
Straight out to Teresa Yuan, joining us outside the resort hotel. Teresa, very quickly, do we know, was the baby cold to the touch?
YUAN: We do not know that, no. All we know is the...
GRACE: OK.
YUAN: Go ahead, Nancy.
GRACE: And very quickly, did the bathroom show signs that the birth had occurred in the bathroom?
YUAN: No. Officers are not leading to that, so no. We don`t know that.
GRACE: OK. So no. Do we know for sure that the pillowcase is from the Excalibur?
YUAN: He would not confirm that. I asked them that several times, and officers would not confirm whether or not the pillow case and towels were from there, so no.
GRACE: With me, Teresa Yuan from KVVU, and Kristen Flowers from KXNT. Ladies, thank you for being with us.
When we come back: A mom of two falls overboard on a luxury cruise ship off the coast of the U.S. Was it an accident?
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 46-year-old nurse and mom of two boarded a Norwegian cruise ship in New York headed for Bermuda, but disappeared just four hours after the ship set sail.
Mindy Jordan was traveling with her boyfriend. He told her family she had fallen over a railing and initial reports from the cruise ship say she was trying to climb from one balcony to another, but her family is skeptical. They`re asking for a full investigation to find out if it was an accident or foul play.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: What happened to a vivacious and beautiful nurse, a mom of two? She goes on a dream cruise, on the Norwegian cruise line and ends up dead?
Out to John McDevitt, reporter with the KYW Newsradio, what happened?
JOHN MCDEVITT, REPORTER, KYW NEWSRADIO: Well, 46-year-old Mindy Jordan, she was on a vacation with her boyfriend Jorge Caputo. They were going out of New York on the Norwegian Dawn Sunday. They were -- they were headed towards the Atlantic City area when the Coast Guard received a phone call, an emergency call, of a man overboard.
Now the Coast Guard issued a helicopter. It was dispatched out of Atlantic City and then later out of Cape Cod, Massachusetts. They searched for several hours until the bad weather, heavy rains and wind, forced them to pull back.
GRACE: Joining us also is Marlaina Schiavo, one of our producers, joining us there at the cruise terminal.
OK. I got to be missing something from this story. From my understanding, this young lady is very petite. She`s not even five foot tall and the rail is over four feet tall, so how is it that she managed to go over board?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, apparently, Nancy, like he said, she was with her boyfriend and they were out on the upper deck and he said that they were goofing off. She was jumping from balcony to balcony and she slipped and fell. He said he said tried to save her.
GRACE: Whoa, jumping from balcony to balcony. Who.
SCHIAVO: That`s right.
GRACE: Where do we get that story? Why would a grown woman be jumping from balcony to balcony?
SCHIAVO: That`s what her family would like to know. She`s a 46-year- old woman. Apparently there was some bad weather and so why would she even be on the deck to begin with? But the cruise line actually issued a statement today saying that initial reports said that she was jumping from balcony to balcony.
Now her mother talked to the cruise line today and asked them simply, are there video cameras on the ship and they answered yes. And they said, well, if there video of this incident happening and they told her mother that they couldn`t answer that at this time.
GRACE: Huh. And back to you, John McDevitt, with KYW Newsradio. How do we know she was jumping from balcony to balcony? What floor was this on the cruise ship?
MCDEVITT: Well, the -- her mother, Louise Horton, says that she heard from her daughter twice on Sunday, she said that she heard from her before she was going on the cruise.
GRACE: OK. My question is where are we getting the information that a grown lady was jumping from balcony to balcony? Where did that come from?
MCDEVITT: The cruise line said that initial reports.
GRACE: The cruise line.
MCDEVITT: Yes.
GRACE: Where did they get it? Somebody had to tell them. Was there a witness?
MCDEVITT: Well, the investigation is very active right now. The FBI is heading this up. I spoke with a representative in New York that is heading this earlier today. He said that they are going to meet this cruise in Bermuda. Agents will be there and interview potential witnesses.
GRACE: OK.
MCDEVITT: Then they`ll determine if something criminal took place.
GRACE: To Marlaina Schiavo, Marlaina, where are we getting the theory originally? I know it was issued from the cruise line. I`m not doubting them. But where did the story come from?
SCHIAVO: Well, it came from Mindy Jordan`s boyfriend. He called Mindy`s mother yesterday morning at 11:00 a.m. and told her that they were goofing around and that Mindy had fallen from the upper deck and lost her grip sort of later in that fall and fell into the water.
So that`s where we`re getting that she was goofing off, jumping from balcony to balcony, and he gave that same report to the Coast Guard when they were investigating this case.
GRACE: OK. What can you tell me, Marlaina about their relationship?
SCHIAVO: Well, I spoke to the mother today and I also spoke to Mindy`s brother and apparently they had a very tumultuous relationship. They had been together for approximately three years. They broke up for a little while. She was trying to get away from him. They`re -- her mother said there was some abuse in the relationship.
We haven`t confirmed those reports with anybody but her mother, but she did say that she tried to get away from the boyfriend but about eight months ago she got back together with him and eight months before they took this cruise.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live.
Out to the lines, Toni in Georgia. Hi, Toni.
TONI, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you? I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you for watching and calling in. What`s your question, dear?
TONI: No problem. That`s the question I wanted to know, if they had a bad relationship at all. It just doesn`t sit right. I can`t see -- I look at her on TV and she doesn`t look like the type of person that would go on a cruise trip and jump from balcony to balcony. It just doesn`t make any sense whatsoever.
GRACE: Let`s go to the lawyers. I want to follow up on what Toni in Georgia is talking about.
With me, Ray Guidice, Atlanta, Doug Burns in New York.
Ray Giudice, I do know that they were traveling or I`ve been told they were traveling with another couple who had an adjoining room, the room next door.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: . to be specific.
GIUDICE: Correct.
GRACE: Now maybe, just maybe she was going from her balcony and crawling over to their balcony. I don`t know if that`s possible. It seems to me that the construct of a cruise ship would be to avoid this potential disaster not to have the balconies within climbing distance.
GIUDICE: Interesting enough you`d think that but the fact that the cruise ship is not releasing some information maybe that their civil attorneys are circling the wagons so they`re not susceptible to a lawsuit for some very simple negligence which may have led to her fall.
GRACE: On the other hand, Doug Burns, before we gather ranks and attack the cruise line, if there is a criminal act, an intervening, criminal act, if someone pushed her or forced her overboard that would resolve the cruise ship of any negligence.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It definitely would. But let me just back up. I object to everybody`s usage of the word jumping. My understanding of the fact pattern, albeit that it came primarily from the boyfriend -- you`re right Nancy -- is that she was attempting to climb from one balcony to another.
Now, is that the biggest rocket science move? No. But it might have happened that way and there`s absolutely no evidence of foul play at this point.
GRACE: You`re right. There are no persons of interest. There is no suspect. Nothing.
Back to John McDevitt with KYW, have we heard anything about drinking that evening? Was there any reason she would have been intoxicated or under the influence of something that would make her climb from balcony to balcony? I mean, you know, it`s an adjoining room. You could just walk out in the hall and knock on the door, hello, I`m out here.
MCDEVITT: No word at all. And this behavior from -- the family has been saying all along is so uncharacteristic of her. She`s a nurse, a mother of two, 46 years old, and it just not -- like you said, 4`10", not even 100 pounds, and for her to be out on this balcony doing this is just so not like her. So thinking about drinking.
GRACE: Right.
MCDEVITT: . and so forth has not mentioned or I haven`t heard it anywhere.
GRACE: Back to Marlaina Schiavo, joining us there at the cruise terminal. Marlaina, you`ve talked to her mother. Does her mother find that behavior, that erratic and risky behavior, unusual for her daughter or was she a risky -- risk-taking person?
SCHIAVO: Nancy, she didn`t say she was a risk-taking person. She definitely said it was uncharacteristic and her brother said it was uncharacteristic to be jumping around, and you have to keep in mind that this was, you know, they were only into the cruise for about four hours when all of this was going on.
I mean, I guess they could have been partying or goofing of by that point but they were just getting started on this trip and so it seems a little odd to the family about how it came about that she would be jumping around on the upper deck of this cruise.
GRACE: And Marlaina, where is the long-time boyfriend with the rocky relationship, where is he right now?
SCHIAVO: Nancy, he is still on the cruise on the way to Bermuda. He will arrive in Bermuda tomorrow afternoon where we know that he will be met with authorities because the FBI.
GRACE: Why, why, why is he still on the cruise ship?
SCHIAVO: He is still on the cruise ship because -- we`re not exactly sure why. We`re imagining that it might be hard to get off the cruise ship. We`re -- we were earlier we were asking maybe the Coast Guard to get him off but it`s not as easy as you would think to just jump off the cruise ship and say I need to get off.
We don`t know what he`ll do when he gets to Bermuda. We don`t know if he`ll fly back or -- we`ll see.
GRACE: Joining us there at the terminal Marlaina Schiavo, also with us John McDevitt with KYW.
But right now we salute our troops.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, Robin. On behalf of the Harris Corporation, we`d like to thank all of the troops for their service and wish them a safe return home.
Dwayne?
DWAYNE, SALUTING THE TROOPS: Our thoughts are with you. Keep up the good work.
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ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.
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UNIDENTIFIED MINDY JORDAN`S SISTER: My sister`s 4`10", 98 pounds. It would not have been easy for her to get up over a railing nor is that in character for her. Her children, obviously, must be absolutely devastated and that`s our number one priority but we have -- you know, we want them to find her. We hope -- we`re still hoping that they find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MINDY JORDAN`S MOTHER: And Jorge, I said, is she dead? What he told me on the phone was she fell over the railing and fell to something down on a lower deck and that he went ran and tried to save her but she lost her grip and fell. I said, "Are you trying to tell me they didn`t even find her body?"
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GRACE: The family absolutely distraught. Vivacious, a beautiful nurse and mother of two goes on a dream cruise with her long-time boyfriend, her traveling mate, and she ends up dead just 45 miles off the U.S. coast. Tonight, we are wondering why her body has not been recovered as of now.
Kathy in Florida, hi, Kathy.
KATHY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: hello.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
KATHY: Well, first of all, I want to congratulate you on your twins.
GRACE: Thank you.
KATHY: And I watch you every night. I think you`re wonderful and I appreciate what you do for saluting our troops and also looking out for our children.
Kathy, thank you very much. Thank you very much.
KATHY: My question was, I had listened to it earlier, they already answered, about video being on the ship because I know I`ve been on them before and they do have them on the outsides and the insides. And I just wondered -- wondering if they had taken any video or recorded any video and.
GRACE: Excellent question. You know, Kathy, until you told me that, I wasn`t sure that they had video cameras on the outside but you`re saying in your experience there are cameras on the outside, as well?
KATHY: Yes. I have been on them and when you approach the ships, you can see them along the outsides of the ship. There are video cameras. At least there have been on any one I`ve been on.
GRACE: You know, interesting question. I want to go back out to Marlaina Schiavo. You asked specifically of the cruise line if they had video and they would not comment, correct?
SCHIAVO: Well, actually, it was Mindy`s mother, Louise.
GRACE: Ah, yes.
SCHIAVO: . who asked the cruise line and they -- they confirmed that they had them.
GRACE: I`m just wondering, I hope that they don`t play it over and over and over because how many hours passed before they even told the family back home that she had fallen overboard?
SCHIAVO: They -- about 14 to 15 hours had passed because, Nancy, she went overboard approximately 8:00 p.m. on Sunday night and it wasn`t until 11:00 a.m. that following morning that the boyfriend called the mother. The cruise line didn`t call the mother nor did the authorities. It was the boyfriend.
GRACE: To Lillian glass, psychologist and author. Dr. Glass, why would he wait until the next day at nearly lunchtime to call home?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": That is the question. Why would he wait? That isn`t behavior that`s normal. That isn`t behavior that someone would do when there`s been a loved one that`s been overboard. The first thing they would do would be get ahold of their family, get ahold of other people. They would be in panic. They would be in devastation.
So something went on there and one of the things he said that came out of his mouth was the word clowning. They were clowning around. And there`s a lot of potency to that word clowning. What was happening out there? Is that a defense mechanism? Were they clowning? Were they in a fight? What really happened?
GRACE: To forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Arnall -- Doctor, her body has been in the water for a couple of days now. Would we be able to determine cause of death?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It`s possible. She may have experienced internal injuries or a broken bone when she fell to the first deck below. She could have had additional injuries when she fell down but if she was pushed down over the side after being hit on the head, even after a couple of days in the water, they may still see those injuries to the scalp and to the skull.
GRACE: But it`s going to very difficult, Doctor, to determine whether a blow to the head was -- by human hand with a blunt instrument or just her falling.
ARNALL: Actually, there is -- it`s possible to tell the difference depending on where the bruises.
GRACE: Really?
ARNALL: . on the brain are located if they`re there. Yes, it is possible to tell the difference.
GRACE: I`m glad to hear that. I didn`t realize that.
Let`s unleash the lawyers again. Ray Guidice, Doug Burns. What do you think at this juncture -- we are getting very little information, Ray Giudice, but again, no one`s been named the person of interest or suspect.
GIUDICE: OK. That`s right. Well, I would suspect that the authorities are doing a room-to-room interview. Keep in mind, these cruise ship rooms are very tight, they`re very next to each other. There was companions with them. Were these folks arguing earlier in the day? That would be interesting testimony. Had they been drinking earlier in the day? These would be important facts.
What medications was, if any.
GRACE: Right.
GIUDICE: .was this lady on?
GRACE: Doug burns, weigh in.
BURNS: No, I agree with Ray. They`re going to have to macro-manage every little detail. Exactly who interacted with them, obviously. The camera is a huge point that the caller made and you have to go and look at every single tape.
GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author, agree or disagree?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Oh, yes. These tapes may be very important but I think the boyfriend`s statement he was clowning around with her is very interesting because he might be trying to give the excuse for him being out there on the balcony with her moving around in such a way that, maybe on those tapes, it would be hard to tell he actually did anything to her or not.
So he must be doing something out there that -- you know, he`s moving around in a wild manner but not pushing her over.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.
SHEEBA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, have they searched his cabin yet? And just exactly what was he doing when she supposedly fell overboard?
GRACE: To Marlaina Schiavo, one of our producers there at the cruise terminal, was his cabin searched and do we have any indication of what the clowning around meant exactly?
SCHIAVO: He didn`t specify what the clowning around was to Mindy`s mom. He just said that they were goofing around and she described it as him saying that she was jumping from room to room, then we find out later that report say it was balcony to balcony.
In terms of searching and the investigation, that`s ongoing. Authorities are going to be down in Bermuda talking to witnesses.
GRACE: OK.
SCHIAVO: . and finding out what exactly happened.
GRACE: Out to the lines, JP in Florida. Hi, JP.
JP, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hey.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
JP: Well, I`m actually just got a couple of observations.
GRACE: OK.
JP: In regards to whether she really was climbing balcony to balcony. I, too, have done a lot of cruising and they keep the cruise ships really clean in between and the balconies have a lot of glass, they have polished wood, and if she`s moving from balcony to balcony, there is -- got to be some fingerprints, some DNA, some, you know, something from her clothing, something that`s got to be left behind if she`s on balcony -- you know, balcony number one climbing.
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GRACE: Breaking news. We have just learned that federal prosecutors have re-filed a superseding indictment against Barry Bonds. He`s the all- time homerun Major League Baseball player in baseball history. He`s a homerun king with number 756 beating Hank Aaron at 755 homeruns. So far, 762 career homeruns.
This is a superseding indictment. Fourteen counts of lying to a grand jury.
To Ray Guidice, Doug Burns -- Doug Burns, what does it mean to Bonds right now?
BURNS: Well, basically, they`ve gone back and added new additional charges. And this is the case -- you see it time and time again -- where people get in serious trouble for not being truthful in testimony when they should rely on the Fifth Amendment to the constitution instead of not being truthful.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, if you are a target of an investigation, you don`t have to say a word at grand jury. You don`t even -- you don`t have to show up.
GIUDICE: That`s right.
GRACE: If they know you`re going to take the Fifth.
GIUDICE: Yes. That`s right. And Doug`s got it right. Get the good lawyers in there, get counseled and don`t say something that then turns into the language that`s in the body of the indictment itself.
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: Apparently, Ray and Doug, they have broken down all of the statements he gave and there are 14 specific statements. What kind of time is he looking at, Ray Giudice? This is a federal indictment.
GIUDICE: I haven`t even seen it yet, but I would suspect that with 14 separate counts, if you stacked them up, you`re probably looking at something from one to five on each.
Doug might have better insight than me on that.
GRACE: Doug, quickly?
BURNS: Yes, that`s true. But under the federal sentencing guidelines, Nancy, you do sort of group them together so we`re not going to sit here and say he`s facing, you know, 110 years but the reality is it`s serious.
GRACE: And of course, if he`s convicted.
Breaking news, Barry Bonds charged in a federal indictment, 14 counts of perjury.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Zachary McBride, 20, Bend, Oregon, killed, Iraq. An infantry scout, awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Star, and induction to the Honorary Order of the Spur. A giving soul, quiet, witty, loved geography, history and science. Leaves behind parents Marshall and Laurie, sister Sarah.
Zachary McBride, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
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