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Nancy Grace
Leaders of Another Texas Polygamist Compound Charged
Aired May 14, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a new and dangerous threat to women and children allegedly rears its head just miles from the biggest child protective bust in U.S. history, that bust rescuing 464 children, 100 women from an isolated compound where alleged systematic marriage and childbirth forced on girls as young as 14, 41 known children with broken bones.
And now, 120 miles to the northeast, guarded and ornate gates don`t stop the long arm of the law after allegations of polygamy, child sex abuse, bigamy, Welfare fraud and children as young as 11 forced into hard labor eight to ten hours every day, all the while, members reportedly pray for nuclear war.
And tonight, at the first compound bust, FLDS legal maneuvering heats up for battle in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another polygamist sect in Texas, this one even creepier than the last. Their prophet warns his followers about the end of the world and may have at least two dozen wives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s one pastor who`s gone above and beyond. This pastor believes that it`s our sins that are causing global warming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities investigating another alleged polygamist sect. Two of the sect leaders face prison time, including leader 73-year-old Yisrayl Hawkins, who authorities claim was performing polygamist weddings and forcing young children into hard labor on the compound. While members of this different, even darker sect deny they practice polygamy, former members have said sect leader Yisrayl Hawkins had at least two dozen wives. Another sect leader, Yedidiyah Hawkins, also faces charges for allegedly sexually abusing a teenager, bigamy and Welfare fraud.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: The feds -- the FBI -- investigating the apparent drowning of a vivacious and beautiful nurse, a mom, a mom of two who mysteriously plunges off a luxury cruise ship, the Norwegian Dawn. The apparent plunge takes place during a violent storm 45 miles off the U.S. coast, but now details emerging about her rocky relationship with her traveling companion, her long-time boyfriend. Why did he wait 15 hours to call her mom, and why did he stay on the ship? The FBI on the case, boarding the ship to investigate, Bermuda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigation widens into the mysterious death of mother of two Mindy Jordan (ph), the luxury cruise ship finally docking in Bermuda. FBI and Bermuda police have boarded, questioning passengers about what they saw the night Mindy allegedly fell off a balcony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George (ph), I said, Is she dead? What he told me on the phone was she fell over the railing and fell to something down on a lower deck and that (INAUDIBLE) ran and tried to save her, but she lost the grip and fell.
I said, Are you trying to tell me that (INAUDIBLE) didn`t even find her body?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will the FBI find potential witnesses? Will video evidence from on-board surveillance cameras crack the case?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, a new and dangerous threat to women and children allegedly rears its head 120 miles to the northeast of the last compound bust. It`s another isolated compound, allegations of polygamy, child sex abuse, bigamy and Welfare fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another cult revealed. Texas authorities are investigating the different, even darker sect, the House of Yahweh, charging leader Yisrayl Hawkins with performing polygamist weddings and forcing children, some as young as 11, to perform hard labor on the compound. Another leader of the sect was also recently arrested. Yedidiyah Hawkins faces charges of sexually abusing a teenager, bigamy and engaging in organized crime. Although the group is not affiliated with FLDS, former members say 73-year-old Yisrayl Hawkins has at least two dozen wives, and records show he fathered two babies last year with women ages 19 and 22.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a former police officer who was kicked off the force up there in Abilene when they found beer in his police car. And he decided, Well, I guess police force isn`t for me anymore. I`m going to start making prophesies about the end of the world, and you know, the great nuclear baby (ph) and how there`s a section of our world`s going to be blown up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, if grown adults want to follow this guy who preaches nuclear war, that`s their business. But when children are forced into child labor or are objects of child sex abuse and forced marriages on young girls, that`s when the state becomes involved.
Out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. What now?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, it`s going to be on trial this summer for Yisrayl Hawkins. He is going to face some charges, could face up to 20 years in prison if found guilty of performing polygamist marriages. We`re going to have to see how that pans out. But this group is so much darker, so much more deadly than the other group. You know, this group, this House of Yahweh...
GRACE: Wait. Are you telling me that this compound, which is just about 120 miles northeast of the last compound bust, the biggest one in U.S. history, and we`re just now hearing about it and it`s actually worse than the FLDS?
BOARD: Well, this group is more along the lines of a Jim Jones. They`re more along the lines of a David Koresh, the end of world, Kool-aid cowboys who are going to kill all themselves because that`s what their master leader prophesized about the whole thing. This group is a lot closer to that than the FLDS, which is further south in Eldorado. The FLDS, they lived on a compound. They were much closer to maybe the Mormon group, maybe the old school Mormons. Nothing like this group. This group...
GRACE: OK. What is this group?
BOARD: It is the House of Yahweh. It was founded by a man in Abilene, Texas, that believes that Abilene, Texas is actually the Jerusalem of the world. This is the only safe place to be in the world. He`s made these prophesies over time, these end of world nuclear prophesies, which actually started back in the year 2000, that if you paid him some money, he would tell you how to be safe and how to live through the Armageddon. It was...
GRACE: OK. Hold on just one moment. With me is Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Now another threat to women and children rearing its head just 120 miles from the last big child protective bust out there in Texas.
Take a listen to this guy in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YISRAYL HAWKINS, SECT LEADER: The famine now that is taking a place is taking place throughout the world. It`s spreading throughout the world. Now, this is one of the things that the prophesies predict for this time period, along with this nuclear baby that will kill a third part of man, over a fourth part of the earth in and around the great river Euphrates with nuclear activity and famine as we just saw in the last prophesy we did on the last show. It`s a combination of prophesies showing what I named the nuclear baby in my book called "The Nuclear Baby."
The savior also said that nation would rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom. There would be famine, disease epidemics and wars that would darken the sun. But he`s holding back the wars and the famine where they will not last any longer than enough time to kill four fifths of the earth`s population. He`s going to save one fifth of the earth`s population, and he shows that that one fifth of the earth`s population will have repented, come out of great tribulation, will have repented and started keeping the laws of Yahweh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. That`s Yisrayl Hawkins on his Web site, YisraylHawkins.com.
Back to Michael Board. So when is the nuclear holocaust? When is that supposed to happen?
BOARD: It was supposed to happen back in the year 2000, but apparently, it didn`t happen then. It got pushed back a couple of years, but once again, it didn`t happen again and...
GRACE: How did a nuclear -- as he says -- I believe we`re more familiar with the phrase nuclear baby -- how does that fit into the whole - - whole end of the world theory with him?
BOARD: Well, his nuclear baby, he believed that it was -- that`s his sign of the Armageddon, the nuclear attack that he believed was going to happen. You heard him talk about killing (ph) the end of the world. That`s the nuclear baby he`s talking about, and it`s -- pushed back a couple times. Nancy, if you want to know when the world`s going to end, all you have to do is give him 25 bucks and he`ll send you a copy of his latest book.
GRACE: OK. Thanks. Michael, I want to get back to the actual allegations regarding women and children on this compound. And how many more of these are there in Texas?
BOARD: Well, there`s -- we believe that there`s a couple of these different sects, but their main headquarters, their temple of whatever church they believe in, is in Abilene, Texas. Unlike the FLDS, there`s only a couple of people that live on the House of Yahweh`s temple, a couple caretakers. Most people live in trailers around it. And they`ve convinced people all over the world to send them money so that they can find out when this end of the world is.
They also create their own food, their own clothing on this compound in Abilene. And if you want to get to heaven, if you want to survive the Armageddon, well, you better pay him some money, buy his food and his clothing, or else you`re not going to survive.
GRACE: Where do the women and children fit in?
BOARD: They`re the ones that live in the trailers around this compound. They`ve sort of formed a little city out there around the temple of Yahweh. And some of the women that have bought into his scam have been arranged in the marriages. That`s what they talk about, the polygamist marriages. The second in command, Yedidiyah Hawkins, he is the one who`s accused of, I believe, sexually assaulting his stepdaughter, and that sexual assault believes (ph) to goes back to, I guess, when she was 8 years old, and this was all believed to happen right around in Abilene, Texas.
GRACE: Where, may I ask, was her mother during all of this?
BOARD: Well, she bought into the scam, too. She was one of the many wives of this group.
GRACE: OK. So I`ve got a charge of sex abuse on a girl as young as 8. I believe she`s 14 at this juncture. What can you tell me about the child labor?
BOARD: Well, that`s one of the charges that Yisrayl Hawkins is facing. They believe that he made boys as young as 11 years old work on this compound out there in Abilene. He worked in some of the factories out there. And they would give most of their wages back to the church. We heard reports of some of these kids working there, you know, 40 hours a day, 7 days a week, and maybe getting $25, where the rest was going to the church.
GRACE: Out to the lines. We are taking your calls live. To Linda in Missouri. Hi, Linda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, what I can`t understand is with all these sects, where they`re so-called bleeding the beast, why they haven`t required the women to name the fathers of the children before they can collect Welfare.
GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s go out to Loretta Fulton. She is with "The Abilene Reporter." She has covered the House of Yahweh for 12 years. Loretta, thank you for being with us. In your study on House of Yahweh, how do they get away with claiming Welfare, all of these women who are married to one man?
LORETTA FULTON, RETIRED ABILENE NEWS REPORTER: They -- they now have been -- they`re being cited for Welfare fraud. That`s the organized crime angle.
GRACE: Oh, I see.
FULTON: But up until now, it -- they`ve just gotten -- managed to get away with it.
GRACE: And let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, Alan Ripka out of New York. Renee, when women claim government assistance, do they typically have to name the father on those documents?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I would think, Nancy, because the father`s supposed to reimburse for the cost of the children. But what you have here is probably only one legal wife, and then the rest of these wives, or these "spiritual wives," go buy into that. But then they`re claiming all this Welfare, and to me, that would be the easiest way to bust up these organizations.
GRACE: I do not believe, Alan Ripka, that fathers are necessarily required to be named before a single mom can get Welfare, can get federal or state assistance. What do you know?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, bottom line, it`s an application, and they want to know whether or not the father is providing money to you in order to see if you qualify or not. So certainly, they want to know if you`re together with him and whether or not he`s supporting you and whether or not he lives with you. So that would be a requirement.
GRACE: OK. That makes sense to me. Explain, Alan, the RICO, the organized crime aspect of this indictment. Very quickly, you know, when I think of organized crime, I think of Cosa Nostra. I think of Tony Soprano. I think of the Mob. So how are they applying that theory to these nutjobs out on this compound?
RIPKA: Well, the bottom line is organized crime is a scheme or a plan by a group of people. And in this particular case, they`re claiming this group of people got together and decided to defraud to get money for the compound.
GRACE: Let`s go out to a special guest joining us, who is going to be defending Yisrayl Hawkins and Yedidiyah Hawkins. It is John Young. He is a lawyer out of the Sweetwater, Texas, jurisdiction. Mr. Young, what is your client`s defense?
JOHN YOUNG, ATTORNEY FOR SECT LEADERS: Well, Ms. Grace, thank you for having me on. I appreciate having the opportunity to respond. The defense -- as you know -- I mean, you were a prosecutor in Fulton County for several years. You know I can`t talk about specific aspects of the law. I can talk about the defenses generally.
GRACE: OK.
YOUNG: And the defenses generally are, We didn`t do it. The allegations against Yedidiyah we believe are overreaching allegations. And we expect to be able to have a jury in Taylor County, Texas, this summer pass on the facts, and we expect that the state perhaps has overreached a little bit in relationship to Yedidiyah. As to Mr. Hawkins, Yisrayl Hawkins, whose trial is set for the fall -- Mr. Board had the dates mixed...
GRACE: Hold on.
YOUNG: Mr. Board had the dates mixed up. I`m sorry?
GRACE: Go ahead.
YOUNG: Mr. Hawkins`s trial, Yisrayl Hawkins`s, trial is set for the fall. And as a practical matter -- as a practical matter, the allegations are that he aided and abetted bigamy. And you know, I look forward to seeing the evidence that the state has because we simply deny that that occurred. In fact, this church teaches against multiple marriages. I`m sure you`ve read the Web site and the books, Ms. Grace. This church teaches against marriage generally, much as the Apostle Paul did, but they say if you must be married, you must follow the laws of the land, and that means one husband and one wife.
GRACE: OK, John Young is a veteran trial lawyer joining us out of Sweetwater, Texas. So John, no offense, but why did your client change his name from Wild Bill Hawkins to Yisrayl Hawkins?
YOUNG: Well, Nancy, if my name was Wild Bill, I`d change it to something else, too. You know, I don`t know. I...
GRACE: Are you telling me that was his legal name, his parents named him Wild Bill?
YOUNG: I believe that is correct. I`ve not seen the birth certificate, but that is what I understand. And you know, this all revolves around a calling unto -- unto -- a spiritual calling that Mr. Hawkins believed that God laid on his heart. I don`t know the dates, but I know that -- I know him to be a devout man. My dealings with him have been -- have been spiritual and devout in nature. He has been nothing but honorable and decent in dealings with me. And I believe that the things that he does, as much as they are caricatured, I believe those things are done out of a...
GRACE: OK...
YOUNG: ... out of a sense of calling and service to...
GRACE: OK. With us...
YOUNG: ... the House of Yahweh.
GRACE: ... is John Young. And as we go to break, let`s take a listen to determine if these allegations are a caricature or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They told me I was not going to be allowed to be here for the birth, but CCS (ph) called me this morning and told me that they would allow me to be here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re trying to -- I don`t know how to say it particularly, but we`re trying to reunite our family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another cult revealed. Texas authorities are investigating the different, even darker sect, the House of Yahweh, charging leader Yisrayl Hawkins with performing polygamist weddings and forcing children, some as young as 11, to perform hard labor on the compound. Another leader of the sect was also recently arrested. Yedidiyah Hawkins faces charges of sexually abusing a teenager, bigamy and engaging in organized crime. Although the group is not affiliated with FLDS, former members say 73-year-old Yisrayl Hawkins has at least two dozen wives, and records show he fared two babies last year with women ages 19 and 22.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now we learn of a new threat to women and children just about 120 miles from the last big FLDS bust there in Texas.
To Michael Board, WOAI Newsradio. I understand that this particular compound has been in effect much longer than the other one.
BOARD: Yes, it`s been around there for a long time. But unlike the FLDS compound, there`s only a couple of people living on it. It`s a couple of caretakers living there. Basically, what this prophet has been saying is that the end of the world is coming and he needs to stockpile supplies on this compound. A lot of it is semi-tractor trailers full of food and supplies. Also, he`s got plans to build another temple there because he believes that Abilene, Texas, is actually Jerusalem. That`s where they`re going to end up. That`s where the salvation is going to be when Armageddon comes.
GRACE: Take a listen to the actual preachings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAWKINS: This man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of Yahweh, that is without spot, that is without sins, purge your conscience from dead (ph) works. It should purge your conscience from dead works, dead works, that not working, lollygaging around, not working. If you haven`t heard my sermon on the Sabbath, you know, I think they named it, "You must work to keep the Sabbath."
(LAUGHTER)
HAWKINS: And that`s exactly how you keep the Sabbath. You do Yahweh`s work. That`s how you keep the feast. If you want to be a part of this night and want to really understand what Yeshua is showing us this night, you will be begging to get your -- find a job that you can do this feast and do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from a former member of the church who gave CNN affiliate KTAB a DVD of one of Hawkins`s sermons. In the sermon, he stresses how members should devote themselves to Yahweh.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Kathleen Jessop, and I stand for freedom. And while we were over there, it felt like that in the land of the free and the home of the brave, we were the Jews taken to the concentration camps, persecuted for our religion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight, developments in the FLDS compound bust. Michael Board, what`s the latest on that?
BOARD: Well, you know, I find it comical that she talks about freedom, when on the compound, it was anything but free when teenage girls being forced to marry men in their 40s, maybe 50s. That`s not freedom. That`s not America.
The latest in this is -- happened here in San Antonio. I happened yesterday. A mother and a father, one of the few monogamous couples who lived on that compound, filed for a temporary restraining order. You see, the mother has an infant child, and that child is about to turn 1 year old this week. When that child turns 1 year old, the state is going to try to seek custody. She says, Oh, I want to keep the kid even when he turns 1 year old. So she filed for this temporary restraining order.
The judge approved it, which basically means it keeps the status quo. She`s going to stay with her kid, even when he turns 1 year old. But next week, we`re going to have a court hearing where a judge will decide if that mother will get to stay with her child. And also, probably more important, also the father in this relationship is asking for visitation rights, as well. This is the first time a father from the compound has filed for visitation rights. It`s going to be really interesting next week when we find out what the judge does.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Brenda in West Virginia. Hi, Brenda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I love your twins. God bless you for everything you do.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, a mother is supposed to protect their children, and I cannot understand why the mothers are letting their daughters and possibly their sons go with these older men...
GRACE: OK, Brenda in West Virginia, don`t go anywhere. We`ll be back with the answer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: I`m happy to be back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: And I do not know where my children are but there is four children out there of mine and I intend to get them before this is over. And a daughter and her -- my grandson and I intend for them to come back to the ranch.
My name is Kathleen Jessop and I stand for freedom. And while we were over there, it felt like that in the land of the free and the home of the brave we were the Jews taken to the concentration camps, persecuted for our religion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Well, according to the state of Texas, there are allegation that their religion involved forced marriages and childbirth forced on girls as young as 13 systematically. 41 children known of with broken bones behind those compound walls.
Let`s go straight back out to your questions. To Brenda in West Virginia, you were asking why mothers would go along with offering up their daughters for this type of life at ages as young as 13?
BRENDA, WEST VIRGINIA RESIDENT: Yes. And also, you know what, Nancy? I feel that these children need to be taken away from their mothers, also. And in the way I feel, the mothers don`t even deserve these children. It`s just so sickening situation.
GRACE: Yes, and you know, Brenda, I was saying the other day, I was approached out of blue by a guy I`ve never met who started arguing with me about how wrong the state of Texas is for taking children away from mothers.
Listen. Nobody wants a child taken away from their mothers unless you believe that there is child abuse going on in that home. In that home. And that is what Texas authorities believe here.
I want to go to Carolyn Jessop, former wife of Merrill Jessop. She`s the author of the book "Escape." Why mothers go along with their girls at age 13 being forced into marriage and childbirth?
CAROLYN JESSOP, AUTHOR OF "ESCAPE", FORMER WIFE OF YFZ LEADER MERRILL JESSOP: You know, Nancy, they believe that they are cooperating with their daughter receiving a salvation. They`re told -- they believe that if the prophet has a revelation that she should be married that they are not in a position to argue with the prophet of God.
If they argue with the prophet they are arguing with God. So it`s -- you know, they`re brainwashed in many ways and they just bought into the system and they can`t question us.
GRACE: Now at this juncture, who is the prophet? Is it Warren Jeffs?
JESSOP: From all sources that`s coming out of the community in Colorado City, it`s still Warren. They still believe he`s the prophet. But now, Merrill, because he`s first counselor, is the one primarily running things from everything that I can tell. He`s running them in the name of Warren.
GRACE: To Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, brainwashing is a strong word. Legally speaking, I mean, it is used in the slang sense, but in court it`s an actual defense, the Stockholm syndrome, that you were coerced, that you were brainwashed. Do you believe these women are really brainwashed? To me, this is a voluntary belief.
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it may have started as a voluntarily belief but if they`re kept separate from the outside world, they`re forced to do certain things, they can`t take care of themselves on their own, their will breaks down and they do, in effect, brainwashed. Maybe not in the legal sense, but psychologically, absolutely.
You can break someone down and control them completely when you deprive them of their right to take care of themselves.
GRACE: But the reality -- out to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- trying to use, for instance, a coercion defense or a Stockholm syndrome defense in court, it`s not going to work.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know how you can say that, Nancy. I think it`s.
GRACE: Well, has it ever worked for you, Renee? Have you ever -- no, no, no. No, Renee. Have you ever had a single defendant get off by using Stockholm defense or coercion?
ROCKWELL: No, Nancy. But I`ve never had a defendant that looks like you push a button and she just starts talking. She`s saying the same thing. These -- all these women sound alike. I doubt they know their real last names. If they`ve known them, they`ve forgotten them and I think, Nancy, that`s an excellent defense.
GRACE: What about it, Alan?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, even if they -- even if you believe they`re brainwashed because they look brain washed, they`re still they have to get around the fact that they gave their children up to this particular guy. And I don`t think a jury`s going to like that very much or going to deal with the defenses.
GRACE: I agree completely.
Out to the lines Mary in Massachusetts. Hi, Mary.
MARY, MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENT: Happy Mother`s Day, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. What is your question, dear?
MARY: Yes. What are the responsibilities for state`s attorneys general and prosecutors not only with cults, but let`s consider that in Massachusetts the Roman Catholic Church abused children for I don`t know how many years and no one stepped forward to prosecute until it became front page news.
The newspapers blew it wide open. God bless Texas for doing the right thing. Massachusetts and Arizona, nothing happened to protect those children.
GRACE: You know, you`re absolutely correct. In fact, the other day, I believe it was about a week ago Utah and Arizona, Mary in Massachusetts, the AGs, law enforcement, got together to have kind of a town hall meeting.
Now at first, I thought it was a summit on how they were going to join forces and prosecute the bigamy and the alleged child abuse. No. It was really about helping the relations with the FLDS community. It was not about prosecuting wrong doing. Very, very disturbing.
I want to go back out to Alan Ripka. It is the attorney general, the state attorney generals` job to prosecute.
RIPKA: I believe it is. I believe that the state attorney general is going to have to come in and look at what the charges are. Certainly the state`s attorney general is going to look at the Medicaid or Medicare fraud that`s involved in this particular case certainly on the civil end and they`ll defer to the prosecutors on the criminal end.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Joni in North Carolina. Hi, Joni.
JONI, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
JONI: I just want to congratulate you on your twins. You are so blessed.
GRACE: I am, thank you.
JONI: My question is, you know, in the U.S. when you go and apply for welfare, it takes so much documents now to get it and I`m wondering these women on the sect that have -- now that it`s open, are they still getting welfare? If not, has it been cut off and are they going to look at charges for getting welfare under fraud?
GRACE: Let`s go to the attorney for Yisrayl Hawkins and Yedidiyah Hawkins, John Young out of Sweetwater, Texas is with us. What about these claims -- and they`re very far reaching as you have said, but when you argue a conspiracy of this nature, it is far reaching.
To sap the government.
JOHN YOUNG, ATTY. FOR SECT LEADERS YEDIDIYAH & YISRAYL HAWKINS: Absolutely it is, Nancy.
GRACE: But it may be justified to sap the government, as they say bleeding the beast --the government being the beast in that scenario -- through welfare fraud. What is your defense regarding the welfare fraud?
YOUNG: Well, it`s an interesting claim because the -- and I hate to mince words or split hairs with you, Nancy.
GRACE: OK.
YOUNG: But the charge is engaging organized crime.
GRACE: Mm-hmm.
YOUNG: That did not become a crime as to welfare fraud in Texas until September 1 of 2007. And I know you`ve already read the indictments because I`ve talked to the folks in your office there. The allegations are for something that occurred in March of 2007. And for the allegations brought by this district attorney if you look at the charges on their face, they don`t state a crime under the law of state of Texas as of March of `07.
Now that -- I`m not.
GRACE: So bottom line, you`re saying.
YOUNG: I`m not trying to beg your question -- beg the question. The only way they could get the theory that they have is that they must go after this as a combination of folks trying to engage in or to participate in the profits or the benefits of these government funds.
The defense is very simple and that is that the state`s got to be able to prove that there was an agreement, that there was a time -- it`s much like Ricoh. You mentioned Ricoh earlier. It`s much like the organized crime -- federal organized crime statute. There must be an agreement to share in these profits or these combinations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to tell my husband Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Jesus Vega who`s out in Afghanistan with the 24th (INAUDIBLE) right now that I love him so much and we are here waiting for him no matter how long this takes.
The kids and I talk about you constantly and, although you may physically be far away, you are very present in our hearts and minds. Being so proud of you is what keeps us strong and everyone here is praying for you to come home healthy and safe and as soon as possible.
We love you and we miss you so much. More than words can express.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, daddy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, daddy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She went overboard approximately 8:00 p.m. on Sunday night and it wasn`t until 11:00 a.m. that following morning that the boyfriend called the mother. He called Mindy`s mother and told her that they were goofing around and that Mindy had fallen from the upper deck and lost her grip sort of later in that fall and then fell into the water.
And he also gave that same report to the Coast Guard when they were investigating this case.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Apparently there is breaking news in the case of the missing mom, the mom who apparently fell overboard on a luxury cruise.
Let`s go out to Marlaina Schiavo, one of our producers there at the cruise terminal.
Marlaina, what`s the latest?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the latest, Nancy, is that Norwegian Cruise Line issued a statement today saying that they got surveillance -- they saw the surveillance video, they viewed it and it showed that Mindy was in her state room alone shortly before the incident happened. Apparently they had gone to dinner with the couple they were on vacation with.
They came back around 7:30. Jorge left the room. Her fiancee left the room to go next door and the surveillance video on the outside of the ship shows her falling over the railing and falling into the water. At that point, an emergency call was made. Jorge was seen exiting the room where the friends were to go get help and that`s when the rescue efforts started.
GRACE: Out to Jim Walsh, reporter with the "Courier-Post." Jim, what can you tell us?
JIM WALSH, REPORTER, COURIER-POST: Well, I can tell you we`re all busy here. We learned as your correspondent said moments ago that we learned that this surveillance account does show that the woman and the man were not together when this happened apparently. We`ve got calls out to family members.
We`ve also heard from Jorge Caputo supporters, which include his ex- wife and her sisters who have said to us before that they did not think he was capable of violence and they say they`re pleased to hear this account.
GRACE: Joining me right now, a special guest, this is Mindy Jordan`s mom, Louise Horton is with us.
Miss Horton, thank you for being with us. What is your reaction to this news?
LOUISE HORTON, MINDY JORDAN`S MOTHER: Yes. They -- Norwegian had notified me and faxed me a copy of the statement that was going to be released. My niece who`s been helping me a lot with getting through some of this faxed them for me to get more details. The tape that they`re talking about does show her going over the railing.
But as far as her climbing from one room to the other, they are taking verbal word for that from Mr. Caputo and his traveling companions.
GRACE: Miss Horton, when did you find.
HORTON: I had -- I had my niece request for them a copy of this -- for myself to see. I mean, to say they see her going over the railing but they -- my understanding when she talked to them that they have -- they`re taking their verbal word for the fact that she was actually trying to climb over to the other room. All the video shows her going over the railing.
GRACE: Have they offered have you and your family the opportunity to join the ship in Bermuda to take a look at the tape? Before the statement they called me regarding the statement or around that -- just before that, they called -- they didn`t say my family. They offered to have me flown down there at their expense and so that I could pick up my daughter`s items, her personal things.
And they would be happy to show me the state room and whatever.
GRACE: Miss Horton, do you.
HORTON: I told them -- I explained to them I did not feel it was going to help me see where my daughter died.
GRACE: Miss Horton, do you believe what they are saying about the video?
HORTON: I believe what they`re saying but I think the terminology of it -- well, it does show her going over the railing. But then when my niece called and just said, well, could -- you know, first of all, we would like to see a copy of that video. Does it show her climbing to the opposite cabin?
And they said, well, that the camera isn`t set up in a way to really do that. That they`re taking, for verification, the word of these other people which is Mr. Caputo and their -- his traveling companions.
GRACE: To John Lucich.
HORTON: Other police -- if she just went over the railing, and she was in the room by herself, how come they -- how could they immediately pick up the phone and call for help? Do you understand what I`m saying?
GRACE: That`s an absolute -- yes, I do. How would they have even known? I understand.
HORTON: How would they know she went over? If she accidentally -- even if she was planning on surprising them and trying it or something, whatever case may be, I mean, if you wanted to go with that scenario, which I don`t believe that either. It doesn`t quite.
GRACE: Are they making it very clear, Miss Horton, that the boyfriend was in a different cabin?
HORTON: Yes. They said that they have a video of him leaving their own cabin and going next door.
GRACE: Was there an adjoining door?
HORTON: They did not say. They just said that they had cameras in the corridor and they had video of him leaving their room and going into theirs.
GRACE: To John Lucich, investigator and author, what further in the investigation should they do at this juncture?
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": There`s a lot of things they`ll have to do. The investigation is just starting. You know they may have a video and I don`t have access to that video, haven`t seen it. But is she being dumped over? Is she falling off? What`s going on there?
I mean there`s just so many possibilities and until they get down to the crux of the -- of what`s going on and what -- where was he beforehand? Hey, and how did he know that how she fell if she wasn`t with her? There`s just so many questions unanswered here that have to be answered.
GRACE: And to renowned medical examiner Dr. Joshua Perper joining us out of Miami.
Dr. Perper, do you believe any possible criminal charge is going to hinge on finding Mindy`s body?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, I don`t believe so because there`s no evidence at this time to point in this direction. And if there is a video showing that she jumped or she went over the rail, somebody will have to make a determination how easy or how difficult it is to do that, and what`s the general medical and psychological condition and what were the exact circumstances which are not clear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister is 4`10", 98 pounds. It would not have been easy for her to get up over a railing nor is that in character for her. Her children, obviously, must be absolutely devastated and that`s our number one priority but we have, you know, we want them to find her. We hope -- we`re still hoping that they find her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. I want to go straight back out to Mindy Jordan`s mom, Louise Horton joining us.
Miss Horton, you know your daughter better than anybody else. Why would she have been out on that balcony on the rail? That doesn`t sound like her at all.
HORTON: Well, on top of that, they`re telling me that there was -- part of the reason why there was an impossible rescue because they had a storm. I mean, this wasn`t like it was 4:00 in the morning. This was a few hours after -- this is also a totally different thing than what Mr. Caputo told me on the phone when he called me.
The cruise line never called many to tell me anything happened. The Coast Guard gave up searching for her in the wee hours of the morning, 2:00, 3:00 or something. He called me at quarter of 11:00 to tell me that Mindy`s had an accident.
GRACE: Well, and the first.
HORTON: And he told me that they were fooling around that she accidentally fell.
GRACE: And you`re sure he said that they, that he was with her when she fell?
HORTON: He told me -- he said, accidentally fell. He said, she fell on to something, I didn`t catch the word. So he said I ran down to try to save her. But by that time, he said, she had -- she couldn`t hold on any longer and let go and fell into the water.
GRACE: Tonight, according to Norwegian Dawn, the Norwegian cruise lines, they have video of Mindy falling overboard alone, that there was no one there with her. The mom plans -- Louise Horton -- to view that video herself.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Glen Martinez, 31, Boulder, Colorado, killed, Iraq, on a second tour. Assigned to supporting combat operations. Loved football, wrestling, baseball. Leaves behind parents Ron and Carol, widow and fellow Marine Sergeant Melissa Sue.
Glen Martinez, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but thank you to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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