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Campbell Brown
McCain, Obama Square Off Over Foreign Policy; Clinton Keeps Fighting
Aired May 19, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, everyone.
We are just hours away now from what will turn out to be two big primaries. Kentucky's polls open in just under 10 hours. In Oregon, people have been voting by mail for weeks, and they have until tomorrow night to drop off their ballots. And these primaries will be huge because, this late in the campaign, we still have Hillary Clinton fighting Barack Obama. In other words, it is not done yet.
But, just as Senator Clinton and Obama lurch toward the finish line, John McCain has already concluded, Obama will be the nominee, the man he will have to beat to win in November, and is the target of his attack today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama has declared and repeatedly reaffirmed his intention to meet the president of Iran without any preconditions, likening it to meetings between former American presidents and the leaders of the Soviet Union. Such a statement portrays the depth of Senator Obama's inexperience and reckless judgment.
These are very serious deficiencies for an American president to process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, Obama didn't let that go unanswered for very long.
At his first campaign stop today, he hit right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What are George Bush and John McCain afraid of? Demanding that a country meets all your conditions before you meet with them, that's not a strategy. It's just naive, wishful thinking.
Why shouldn't we have the same courage and the confidence to talk to our enemies? That's what strong countries do. That's what strong presidents do. That's what I will do when I'm president of the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Naturally, it didn't end there.
McCain was up next. And here's what he told reporters just a couple of hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: That points out not only a strong difference of opinion that I have on that issue, but a different approach that I have to America's national security policy. Senator Obama has little or no experience on these issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: McCain went on to say, Obama has a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues in the Middle East.
Obama is campaigning in Montana. So, if he chooses, he still has time today to return McCain's fire.
Suzanne Malveaux is in Louisville, Kentucky, watching the Democrats. Dana Bash is watching the McCain campaign from Washington. And Candy Crowley is with Hillary Clinton in Lexington, Kentucky.
And, Suzanne, I want to start with you.
Obama and McCain have been going at it on Iran for days and on issues of national security in particular. Obama can't afford to let any of these attacks go unanswered, can he?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely not, Campbell.
I mean, talking to aides, they realize that this is the one issue that's really going to be central in the general election, that is, of national security, which one has the experience and which one has the philosophical difference, really, to protect the American people, whose approach is better, the diplomatic approach or really kind of this very tough, tough kind of way that they're dealing with Ahmadinejad, as well as some others.
What they recognize here is that McCain has had some time, the luxury of time, to try to define Barack Obama. He needs to define himself, and he needs to basically say that he is the one who's strong enough to be the commander in chief. They know that this is the one thing that McCain has going for him. It's his military record. He's a war hero, a veteran.
This is something that they have got to hit back hard every single time. And we have already seen they have started that even before you get to the general election -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Suzanne, stay there. I will be back with you in just a moment.
Now let's bring in Dana Bash, who covers the McCain campaign for CNN.
And, Dana, on the flip side to this, it's going to be a central part of McCain's argument to the American people, isn't it, that Barack Obama just doesn't have the chops to keep them safe, right?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.
Remember, he picked this fight today, John McCain did. Some reason, a little bit of the reason is to get some other stories about his lobbyists in his campaign off the front pages, but much more importantly it is -- there's no question about it -- the general election campaign is up and running big time inside the McCain campaign.
And when you talk to advisers, they say that they believe in this horrible climate for Republicans, their best shot at beating Barack Obama is to use the experience card and also to talk about the fact that he is not ready to be commander in chief.
McCain has spent a lot of time actually talking about himself and his own qualities to be president, but he actually hasn't dug in and really pounced on Barack Obama, the way he has over the past couple of days. His campaign, they heard Obama say yesterday that there's a tiny -- that Iran is a tiny threat, compared to the Soviet Union, and they thought, this is a great opportunity for them. That's why you heard what you heard today.
BROWN: All right, Dana, thanks. And you stay there, too.
While Senators Obama and McCain blast away at one another, Senator Hillary Clinton is barnstorming around Kentucky desperately trying to make a case that she still could win the nomination. But the simple math is only getting harder for her.
After the primaries tomorrow, for the first time, Obama is expected to have a clear majority of the Democrats' regular convention delegates. But now Clinton is framing her argument differently. The new message is, she has a better chance at winning the electoral vote this fall. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My opponent has won states totaling 217 electoral votes. Now, we have both won some states that are going to be hard for us to win in the fall, like Texas and Oklahoma, but I still have a cushion, if you look at all the states that I have won, and take out those that may not be in our column come the fall.
My opponent has 217 electoral votes, including places like Alaska and Idaho and Utah and Kansas and Nebraska. And many of his votes and his delegates come from caucus states, which have a relatively low turnout.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senior political correspondent Candy Crowley is in Kentucky covering the Clinton campaign.
And, Candy, Clinton is pushing ahead on yet another primary eve. The numbers not in her favor, but she is out telling Obama, hold up; you don't have this thing in the bag yet.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.
And that's because they are looking at these other numbers. And they're saying -- first of all, they're arguing to the -- not like a lot of other people, but they have an argument that says, look, we are ahead in the popular vote. It depends of course on how you add them up, whether you count Michigan, whether you count the people who voted in caucuses.
Nonetheless, they're making that argument. They're making that electoral vote argument that you just heard. And they're making, again, the electability argument.
So, the fact of the matter is that when they look at this, they don't look at the elected pledged delegates, as Obama does. They look at a whole different set of statistics. And they look at it as a superdelegate argument: Listen, people, before you make this decision, as superdelegates, you need to look at these things about who's going to actually win in the fall.
So, she's just looking at a whole different book when it comes to the math of this.
BROWN: All right, Candy, if you believe the polls, Kentucky may be Senator Hillary Clinton's last hurrah. Our poll of polls -- and that's where we average several of the most recent surveys -- do show her with a 30-point lead over Obama, 58 percent to 28, with 14 percent of voters unsure.
In Oregon, our poll of polls shows Obama ahead 50 percent to 40, with 10 percent unsure.
And let's bring back all of our correspondents, Candy Crowley, Dana Bash, and Suzanne Malveaux.
And, Candy, again to you, Clinton will be in Kentucky tomorrow night, as we mentioned, but Wednesday, she is on to, drumroll please, Florida, where she will presumably make her case to seat those delegates.
Give us the latest on that battle.
CROWLEY: Well, the latest is that they're looking at May 31, perhaps one of the most important days between now and the 3rd, when the primary process ends, for Hillary Clinton.
As you know, she has arguing to seat these delegates. They will seat the delegates, but obviously it depends on how they do it, how many delegates they give to Hillary Clinton, how many to Barack Obama.
So, obviously, going to Florida spotlights her argument that these votes have to count. It's also, I should add, not far from Puerto Rico, if you are already in Florida. As you know, Puerto Rico has a primary coming up. And I would suspect we will see her there at the end of the week.
BROWN: All right.
And, Dana, another lobbyist has resigned from John McCain's campaign staff, from a key position on his staff. How much of this is an issue from someone who is always out there touting his independence from special interests?
BASH: Well, it's interesting, Campbell.
The McCain campaign clearly thinks it is an issue, because this latest resignation was a result of the McCain campaign purging its own staff to make sure that there were no lobbyists. This came late last week. His campaign put in place some new pretty strict regulations, saying that somebody who's a federal lobbyist can't be working for the campaign.
That came after a couple of embarrassing resignations from people who were lobbying on the behalf of the military regime in Myanmar. But this wouldn't have been maybe that big of a deal had it already not been an issue, because a couple of top staffers into the McCain campaign, they're former lobbyists.
So, all of this combined really did threaten McCain's image as a reformer. And that is really the crux of his argument to get those independent voters. So, you know, some people I talk to say, it would have been nice, since we knew that this was an issue, to do this months and months ago. But also say, you know what? It's may. It could have been a lot worse.
BROWN: All right, and, Suzanne, to you now. Obama won't be in either Oregon or Kentucky tomorrow. He is actually going to be in Iowa, scene of his big caucus win. And he says it's going to bring Iowa -- he's going to Iowa because it brings it all full circle, laying on the symbolism pretty thick there. What can we expect from tomorrow night's speech?
MALVEAUX: We can expect that you're going to hear him talk about Iowa being the place where really it all started and he's going to try to remind voters here essentially saying, look, this is a state where, you know, everything's divided in race.
Well, this is a state, you know, 98 percent, 97 percent white. This is a state that had rural voters, a whole host of different demographics that he seized upon early on and really made hi meantime, front-runner to be. That's one of the things.
But one of the other reasons that he is actually going to be there is to remind people here that this is a swing state. It's important. He was able to get a lot of support there and he is going to be making that case to the superdelegates. He wants them to weigh in on this before the Florida and Michigan decision comes down at the end of the month. He wants them to jump on board. That's why you are going to see him in Iowa tomorrow reminding not only voters, but the superdelegates, I'm the guy who can get the swing states and I'm the guy who needs your votes to essentially wrap this thing up -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Suzanne Malveaux, and Dana Bash, Candy Crowley, thanks to all our correspondents tonight.
As the primary battle goes to the finish, it is a pure numbers game that doesn't look good for Hillary Clinton. Who better to explain how it works than John King? He is going to join us here in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This just in from the campaign trail.
Bill Clinton about 45 minutes ago in Lexington, Kentucky, he's making a last-ditch argument about why the Democrats should give his wife the nomination. He says Senator Clinton would do better in November. The message now is about the electoral map, not delegates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In every single electoral map I have seen, she is beating Senator McCain handily, and she is the only Democrat that is doing that today.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: If on Wednesday Obama has over 50 percent of all the delegates elected by rank and file voters, his campaign says that's a giant step toward locking up the nomination. So, is that right?
Well, we have got John King and his super-duper map here to show us. It's now the super-duper map. You got upgraded.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Call it what you will.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: OK.
All right, John, so, tomorrow night, in all likelihood, Obama will reach a maximum in -- or a majority in elected delegates.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: In the pledged delegates, exactly right.
BROWN: Show us how that's going to work.
KING: He thinks that's a significant number and he will make the case that it gives him the moral argument to be the Democratic nominee.
Here's a number worth looking at right here. You see 1,612. I crossed it out a little bit -- 1,612 is his pledged delegates, those decided in primaries and caucuses. I will take that off, so you can see the number more clearly. The majority is around 1,627. Some say 1,628.
But let's say 1,630. If you say that is a clear majority of the pledged delegates, let's assume Senator Clinton even wins the state of Kentucky and let's assume she wins it 65/35. Boom. Barack Obama has passed 1,630. Even if Senator Clinton wins 65/35 in Kentucky, Barack Obama will reach a majority of the pledged delegates.
And then assume we wins out in Oregon later in the night just 55/45. Let's say that's a closer contest. He gets up to almost 1,660, 1,659. Those are rough allocations based on the percentages, but without a doubt based on everything the polls are telling us, tomorrow night, he will cross the majority of pledged delegates. He thinks that is a big moral threshold.
BROWN: OK. Now, talk us through this. This is Hillary Clinton today. She came out and said that she's not only leading in the popular votes, but she has won the big states that can deliver the most electoral votes in the fall. This is a little controversial, that kind of math, huh?
KING: It is a little controversial.
The popular vote counts on Michigan and Florida, which voted outside the Democratic rules. So that's an argument the two campaigns will have. The other argument she is making in this argument, Campbell, is the electoral map. And she does have a point here.
And even the Obama campaign concedes this privately right now. What she says is, I'm a stronger general election candidate. What does she base that on? She says, I get the white working-class. I will hold Pennsylvania and those 21 electoral votes. I will keep them Democratic. She thinks she can put Ohio into play, 20 votes there. The Republicans need that state.
If Senator Clinton can turn that over, look now. John McCain is slipping back from the Bush number. Senator Clinton also thinks she could put West Virginia in play because of her support among white working-class voters. We give that one to her.
And she also thinks hugely important, Campbell, she thinks her support among older voters puts her in play down here in Florida, 27 electoral votes. Would she win them all? Of course not. But, look, what she believes, she is more much competitive in more states than Barack Obama from an electoral standpoint.
Now, inside the Obama campaign, they think he can make up this ground. They think he can also put other states like Virginia and Colorado into play.
But just heard Bill Clinton say, today, she is the stronger general election candidate. Most Democrats concede that. But being the stronger general election candidate isn't what wins you the nomination. Delegates is what wins you the nomination. And Barack Obama leads in that fight.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: OK.
So is there, finally, any combination of delegate math that you can put together for us that would not have this thing wrapped up by August?
KING: Here's about the only way it could happen. And I'm going to go to this graph here.
This shows you what is left. Barack Obama is this close to the finish line. Has only to win 28, 29 percent of the remaining delegates, and he is the Democratic nominee. The only way to block that from happening would be for a huge proportion of the superdelegates, the elected and party activists who are not decided on caucus day, for a huge proportion of them to say, we're going to wait until the convention. We're not going to endorse anybody. We're going to wait.
Is that likely to happen? You see a trickle toward Obama right now, so most people think no way. But it would take a huge number of those 225 to say, we're going to wait. We will have fun at the convention.
BROWN: All right. We would have fun at the convention, wouldn't we?
KING: Yes, we would.
BROWN: John King for us tonight -- as always, John, thanks.
And when we come back, John McCain on "Saturday Night Live" making fun of his age and his, well, weathered appearance. A presidential candidate jokes, love me, scars and all.
We're going to look at the jokes and how well they help to defuse some of the attacks he may have to face in his run for the White House.
That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In tomorrow's primaries, Barack Obama hopes they end the marathon nomination battle. Hillary Clinton hopes it keeps her campaign alive. And as far as Republican John McCain is concerned, he hopes their battle never ends.
And here he was this weekend on "Saturday Night Live."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE") SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would urge Democrats not to get caught up in the idea that the candidate has to be decided by the time the convention ends.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: I have been to a lot of conventions, and they're a lot of fun.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: But, when they end, there's always that empty feeling of, oh, well, we have picked a nominee. I guess the party's over.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: Imagine the excitement of leaving the convention and still not knowing who the nominee was.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MCCAIN: That would be crazy, crazy exciting.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Well, with Hillary Clinton showing no signs of stopping before the primaries end, John McCain's joke may be more than wishful thinking.
So, how long could it take before Democrats unite behind one candidate?
Well, we have got three top political analysts with me tonight, Mark Halperin, editor at large and senior political analyst at "TIME" magazine, Leslie Sanchez, a Republican analyst and CNN contributor, and Roland Martin for us, a CNN political analyst and radio talk show host and syndicated columnist.
Welcome to everybody.
Mark, let me start with you.
As we were just talking about with John King, after tomorrow night, in all likelihood, Obama will pretty definitely have the majority of pledged delegates. Superdelegates, though, his campaign is hoping that they will send an additional number of superdelegates on board. Is it still going to be a trickle or do you see that this mass number is going to move tomorrow night?
MARK HALPERIN, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST, "TIME": I think a big number will move, but not a big enough that he will have a numeric overall majority. And, remember, the number of pledged delegates his campaign is working off of is without Florida and Michigan being added. At the end of the month, the Democratic Party will deal with that issue. I suspect they will be getting in, in some way. So, he's going to get a majority of the pledged delegates, but I think then he's going to fall back short of that.
As a talking point with superdelegates, it is important. And that's really all that matters.
BROWN: Why are they waiting? Why has it only been a trickle and not this mass movement of superdelegates...
(CROSSTALK)
LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think Hillary Clinton has made a very strong case that folks are starting to have buyer's remorse, that Barack Obama cannot win some strategic states that are critical for a Democratic win in -- to the White House.
And it's interesting. If you think about the fact that two hours after John Edwards endorsed Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton had a meeting with some of her superdelegates. And I think folks came out of that meeting and thought there was a 50 percent chance that they could get to convention. So, I really don't see them slowing that momentum. They have made a case. She has raised a lot of money and she's going to keep moving ahead.
BROWN: All right.
Roland, I want you to listen to this. This is -- Bill Clinton just spoke. This was within the last hour. And I want to play you a little of what he just said. And this is about the pundits and the press coverage of his wife. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. CLINTON: Every time you turn on the television, and you listen to one of those people dissing her, they all have a college degree; they have all got a good job; they have all got health care; and they're having no trouble filling up their gas tank.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The suggestion being we are all living in a little bit of a bubble here. We are out of touch with what's really going on out there.
Is it fair?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Bill Clinton has got, what, about 100 million bucks, got free health care, and he flies around in private jets and paid-for transportation. I think Bill Clinton probably has the same issues that a lot of us have.
But you know what, Campbell? The bottom line is, it's very easy to beat up on the media when you're in that particular position. But the real focus really should be on the campaign. That might resonate with some voters. What it really boils down to is, how are you going to deal with the math? That's the most important thing.
And I understand the Clinton campaign making the argument in terms of what the polls show today, Campbell, but here's the reality. Michael Dukakis was winning by 17 points at this very juncture back in 1988. He never became president. So, polls in May and June mean nothing in November.
BROWN: What do you think? Is it -- picking on the media sort of last ditch of a campaign or do they have a fair point? Because Hillary Clinton's made the same argument as well.
HALPERIN: Well, I think it's intended to keep her supporters on board. There's three ways to get her out of the race. One is for him is to get a numeric majority of the overall delegate total. He's not going to get that for a while.
I think another is to have her own supporters say, you have got to get out of this race. You can't win. We want you to get out. And I think attacking the media is a way of rallying the base. I'm not going to tell you the third way to get her out.
BROWN: All right. Hold on.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Hold that thought.
Up next, Barack Obama was crystal clear today when he complained about dirty politics. He say, "Lay off my wife." She's been out campaigning hard for him, so should she be fair game? -- when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, called a stir in February when she was describing the enthusiasm around her husband's campaign and said that -- quote -- "For the first time in my adult life, I was really proud of my country."
Well, critics called that unpatriotic. And now the Republican Party in Tennessee is using her quote against Obama in a new ad.
This morning on ABC's "Good Morning America," he told them to stop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA")
B. OBAMA: If they think that they're going to try to make Michelle an issue in this campaign, they should be careful, because that I find unacceptable, the notion that you start attacking my wife or my family.
You know, Michelle is the most honest, the best person I know. She is one of the most caring people I know. She loves this country. And for them to try to distort or to play snippets of her remarks in ways that are unflattering to her I think is -- is just low-class.
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF SENATOR BARACK OBAMA: We're trusting that the American voters are ready to talk about the issues and not talking about the things that have nothing to do with making people's lives better.
B. OBAMA: But I also think these folks should lay off my wife.
(LAUGHTER)
B. OBAMA: All right?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Let's go back to our political panel now.
We have got "TIME" magazine's Mark Halperin, Republican analyst and CNN contributor Leslie Sanchez, and CNN political analyst Roland Martin.
And, Leslie, Obama is here saying, "Lay off my wife." Meanwhile, the Democratic National Committee is sending out press releases almost daily attacking Cindy McCain for not releasing her tax returns.
Are spouses fair game?
SANCHEZ: To some extent, spouses are. I think it depends on the nature of the attack.
I think, in this case, it was a missed opportunity for Republicans, because now you have basically who could be the nominee defending his wife. You don't really want to be in that position, because it makes the Republicans -- the Kentucky GOP look like the bully and it misses the whole point.
BROWN: It looks petty.
SANCHEZ: It's petty. It's ridiculous.
The bigger issue is, do they share this kind of European apologist view of America? I think a lot of Americans believe, America first, America right, America always.
And when you see things that add up, like Barack Obama not wanting to wear the flag lapel, for the first time in her life, she is feeling proud, it was this kind of series of things of thinking, what are the Obamas' viewpoint of the world? That is more philosophically important to this debate than it is, you know, how this ad was laid out, and I think you missed that.
BROWN: Roland, what about --
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, Leslie --
BROWN: Well, go ahead.
SANCHEZ: Come on, Roland.
BROWN: Make your point, Roland.
MARTIN: Oh, yes. Come on. Look, I got -- Campbell, I got a column posted on CNN.com about this ridiculous flag deal. OK. Here's the deal, Campbell.
This is my wedding ring. If I take it off, I'm still married because the whole notion about the flag, the lapel pin, it means nothing. I understand why he's defending his wife. But, you know what, Senator Barack Obama, your wife is going to be a part of the campaign. Cindy McCain is going to be a part of the campaign.
I disagree with the Clinton campaign now saying oh, Chelsea, she can't give any interviews. No. The moment you walk out there and you begin to campaign, you are a part of the process.
When Dick Cheney's wife got mad, what they said, don't question my lesbian daughter, no. Well, don't get out there on the campaign trail. This is a part of the process as what it is. I understand defending your wife, but it's going to be fair game in the process.
SANCHEZ: He's absolutely right. Teresa Heinz Kerry, when she came out and had very different types of views, that became fodder for the media and I think for a lot of voters to think about as well back in 2004. So this is not --
MARK HALPERIN, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Here's why I think it's a mistake for him to do this. What if they don't lay off his wife? What's he going to do?
Today he was talking all tough at "Good American America." But if this continues and I suspect it will, is he going to challenge people to a fight? Is he going to punch someone in the nose? I mean, I don't know -- I don't how he --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Hey, hey!
HALPERIN: I don't know how he's going to enforce his strong feelings.
MARTIN: Hey, Mark, Harry Truman defended his daughter.
BROWN: OK. Let me ask this question, Mark. Who do you think is the bigger asset here in terms of being a political spouse, and who will be more helpful on the trail? Will it be Cindy McCain or Michelle Obama?
HALPERIN: I think it's absolutely up in the air. They both have great upsides, and they both have some potentially big downsides. And I think part of the challenge you have in a campaign is the spouses is usually the most powerful figure out there as you know. Very hard to go to the candidate or to the spouse directly and say you know what, you need to change the way you're doing things. I think they both have tendencies that are really positive and they both, as I said, have potential downsides.
SANCHEZ: I think that's a harder case to make for Cindy McCain. She is somebody that is not as well-known in the media. I think Michelle Obama has taken a lead in some states that were critical, especially through the south to help her husband.
You saw it in South Carolina. You saw it in North Carolina, as well, and she definitely empowers a lot of women to get out and vote. You don't see the same type of magnetism and I think for that reason, because she's such a focal point, she definitely deserves a lot more of a second look.
BROWN: All right. We're going to take --
MARTIN: I'm the first one.
BROWN: Go ahead, Roland.
MARTIN: I want to see a spousal debate. I want to see Cindy -- if they're the nominee, Cindy McCain and Michelle Obama square off. Let's have that debate.
BROWN: OK. All right. Stay with us, guys. As we have heard the past few days, it has been gloves off for McCain and Obama over Iran. McCain saying in effect that Obama just doesn't get the complexity if not the stakes of the most pressing international challenges. We're going to pick up on that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Obama has declared and repeatedly reaffirmed his intention to meet the president of Iran without any preconditions, likening it to meetings between former American presidents and the leaders of the Soviet Union. Such a statement betrays the depth of Senator Obama's inexperience and reckless judgment.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've made it clear for years that the threat from Iran is grave, but what I've said is that we should not just talk to our friends. We should be willing to engage our enemies, as well. That's what diplomacy is all about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: McCain v. Obama on Iran. It gets at the heart of their clashing approaches on foreign policy. And I want to ask Mark Halperin, Leslie Sanchez and Roland Martin, who's down in New Orleans about all of that. And Mark, these guys have been going at it over Iran and national security, really, over the last week or so. Who do you think has the upper hand right now?
HALPERIN: I think so far, it's a tie. McCain gets a chance to be animated and going on the offensive, something that's hard for his campaign to get him to do, and he gets to focus on national security where he's most comfortable.
Obama has been surprisingly strong and for his campaign encouragingly strong in standing up and beginning to make this argument he's going to have to make. Different kind of experience. Change in foreign policy. I think they're both doing pretty well and both of them feel that way, and that's why they're keeping at it.
SANCHEZ: I think the Democrats are crying out in unison on this. This is not just Barack Obama, and I think -- Hillary Clinton came out in his defense I think in some of the statements. And I believe the dogs that bark the loudest are the most scared.
This is a case where I think the Democrats know they are very weak on foreign policy. They lost the White House in '84 because of taxes. They lost it in '88 because of crime and Dukakis, and I think they can lose it again in 2008 because of foreign policy. So they're going to stand very strong on this even though they may not have the merit or the medals to do so.
MARTIN: Well, I tell you what, Campbell.
BROWN: Yes, go ahead, Roland. I know you disagree.
MARTIN: I understand Leslie making that point but the reality is here. Democrats, they're going to fight right now on the national security issue. Are they going to spin this thing quickly to the economy?
And when you look at Republicans running up the deficit, they were in control for six years. They're going to go up to John McCain and his party. He might say I'm a different kind of Republican, but they're going to say you're representing your party.
So I understand Leslie's point but McCain does not want to debate on the economy. Trust me. He wants to stay exactly where he is.
BROWN: Well, and so far, he's been pretty effective about driving the debate and keeping it on that subject matter. Fair?
SANCHEZ: No, very fair. I think Roland has got a great point. I think if they shift to the economy, that's their stronger, you know, their stronger suit. No doubt about that.
But it's interesting I think they're trying to show they're strong on foreign policy. But if they got into the weeds and the details, I think they're in trouble.
BROWN: All right. We got to end it there, but thanks everybody to Mark Halperin, Leslie Sanchez and Roland Martin, as always.
Coming up, even John McCain is making jokes about his age, but should the voters be actually worried about his health? We've been waiting for months for his medical report and it's due out later this week. We're going to ask Dr. Sanjay Gupta what we should be looking for. That's when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: John McCain is trying to deflect concerns about one of his greatest liabilities by joking about it, like on NBC's "Saturday Night live" this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I ask you, what should we be looking for in our next president? Certainly someone who is very, very, very old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Well, as you see, John McCain making fun of his age there and that's because if he were to win in November, he would be at age 72, the oldest person ever to begin a first term in the White House. And the senator's health has become an issue and that is why the McCain campaign is due to release his medical records to the public on Friday.
Chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me from Atlanta with a look at Senator McCain's health -- Sanjay.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: And we're going to be there on Friday to actually look at those records right away when they come out and bring that to you, Campbell. We do know a couple of things.
Back in 2000, he was diagnosed with a deadly form of cancer. Malignant melanoma. We also know that doctors took an unusually aggressive therapy at that point and that has raised a few questions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA (voice-over): It's a face we're all used to seeing lately, but look closer and you'll notice scars, deep ones. They have many in the medical community wondering why. We decided to investigate.
GUPTA (on camera): This is a picture of Senator McCain right after his melanoma surgery. What does this picture say to you?
DR. KEITH DELMAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: It looks to me as if he had surgery on the left side of his temple for this, where we know is this melanoma.
GUPTA: Show me my face.
DELMAN: What happens is they take off the melanoma with this -- not only the melanoma but in area of the normal tissue around it. So it can be a fairly sizable defect that they take off there.
And then to take out the area in the face and the lymph node there, they took out part of his parotid gland, which sits right in front of the ear, which is an incision right just along the ear similar to an incision you would have for a facelift but not quite as pretty.
GUPTA: As a surgical oncologist, that strikes you the same way.
DELMAN: It's a little bit aggressive.
GUPTA (voice-over): It didn't all fit. Make no mistake, melanoma is malignant cancer. But why were the doctors aggressive with McCain's operation? Was the cancer more extensive than we've been told, or was it just an abundance of caution?
DELMAN: You have to speculate that perhaps they were very aggressive because he is Senator McCain.
GUPTA: So how exactly do people like Senator McCain get treated?
GUPTA (on camera): When doctors operated on Senator McCain, they had a question to answer. If the cancer were to spread, where would it go? They injected radioactive dye around his left temple, around the melanoma, and they watched it.
The patient behind me had just had that same procedure done. They injected some dye around her left eyelid and they watched it spread down here. Question answered.
In Senator McCain's case, it spread to the lymph nodes in his neck.
GUPTA (voice-over): So they tested that first lymph node the dye reached. It's appropriately called the sentinel node, and they found no cancer. That was key. Very good news for Senator McCain.
But again, here's where surgeons typically stopped. In McCain's case, they kept cutting and removing and we don't know why.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: What we do know, though, is when it comes to melanoma, size matters. What we've been told, Campbell, is that his melanoma was 2.2 millimeters deep. If you have to grade this sort of thing, with 1 being the best and 4 being the worst, his was a 2. A 10-year survival of about 66 percent and as we've heard, that was eight years ago, Campbell.
BROWN: Well, Sanjay, when Senator McCain last released his medical records in 1999, there were 1,500 pages. So you're going to go through these on Friday. What do doctors like yourself look for buried in these reports that might shed some light on his current state of health?
GUPTA: Well, you know, when it comes to this melanoma, we want to know, first of all, all the things that we've been told. Are they actually true?
Most importantly, has there been any evidence of recurrence at all? Now, those are the things you sort of look for when you're trying to figure out someone's survival from this sort of thing.
BROWN: And Sanjay, besides the melanoma, what other health conditions do we know about?
GUPTA: Look, you know, given his age, we have to ask about the heart. We have to ask these questions. We know that he is on Vytorin, which is a cholesterol medication. He also takes a baby aspirin. What are his cholesterol levels? Has he ever had any tests of his heart?
BROWN: And Sanjay, finally, I have to ask you why we have you here. Another 70-something senator, Ted Kennedy, was hospitalized this weekend after a seizure. I know you've been looking into this. What's the latest on his condition?
GUPTA: He's still in the hospital. You know, a seizure while it's a very frightening thing to watch, Campbell, is, you know, it's not unexpected that someone is going to recover from that, do well, which exactly what we've been told he's been doing, on the phone, watching the baseball games, things like that.
What's important, and what they're doing now is trying to figure out what happened here. Was this an electrolyte problem like too low sodium, for example, in the blood? Could it be something more serious like a brain tumor or early signs of a stroke?
Dr. Sanjay Gupta for us tonight. Sanjay, thank you.
GUPTA: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up at the top of the hour, and we hear that tonight's show could be complicated. Larry King is with us now. Larry, what's going on tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": It might be, Campbell. Denise Richards is here. I'm going to have to ask her about her ex- husband Charlie Sheen, and her ex-boyfriend Richie Sambora. And why she's putting her children on her new TV show.
Plus, polygamy from the inside. We'll talk to two people who know the subject well. One is still in the sect. The other long gone. It's "LARRY KING LIVE" at the top of the hour -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right. We'll be watching. Thanks, Larry.
Coming up in just a moment, we are going to have an update on the earthquake in China. One quarter of the world's population comes to a standstill today to honor the dead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Just ahead, "Saturday Night Live's" take on the Clinton- Obama rivalry and the stagecraft behind Obama's giant Portland, Oregon, rally. But first, here's Joe Johns with tonight's "Briefing."
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Campbell. We begin tonight with three minutes of silence. That's what happened today across China to honor more than 34,000 people killed in last week's earthquake.
Rescue workers, school children, shop workers, soldiers, more than one billion Chinese stopped what they were doing at 2:28 p.m., precisely one week after the 7.9 quake struck. China is observing three official days of mourning.
Not enough. That's what Iraqi officials say about the U.S. army's response after a soldier used the Koran for target practice. He has apologized and been reprimanded and shipped home, but the Islamic Party in Iraq is demanding "the severest of punishments." One Iraqi sheikh called the shooting of the holy book aggression against the entire Islamic world.
And more custody hearings today for the 463 children of a Texas polygamist sect. Judges have to decide what to do with the children removed from the Yearning for Zion Ranch last month. Their 168 mothers and 69 fathers are waiting for the outcome. The cases are expected to dominate the local courthouse for the next three weeks -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Thanks, Joe.
And as we followed the Democratic race, it has been hard sometimes to see any difference between Clinton and Obama on the issues. Well, this week "Saturday Night Live" found a funny way to portray a few subtle differences. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, NBC "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
ACTOR/ACTRESS PLAYING BARACK OBAMA AND HILLARY CLINTON: Democratic primaries. The race for the nomination. From January to June.
OBAMA: Ideally sooner.
OBAMA/CLINTON: The fate of the party hangs in the balance. From Iowa.
CLINTON: Which was a caucus state and shouldn't carry as much weight.
OBAMA: And California, which any Democrat would carry in the general election anyway.
OBAMA/CLINTON: From the hope of the future.
OBAMA: The youth.
OBAMA/CLINTON: To the backbone of the party.
CLINTON: Hardworking white people. OBAMA/CLINTON: Now, two candidates remain.
(CROSSTALK)
OBAMA: Only one mathematically viable.
CLINTON: And it's anyone's race.
OBAMA/CLINTON: Both have their assets.
OBAMA: Charisma.
CLINTON: Ambition.
OBAMA/CLINTON: And their liabilities.
CLINTON: Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
OBAMA: Bill Clinton.
OBAMA/CLINTON: And they both have their eyes on one prize. The Democratic nomination --
CLINTON: In 2012.
OBAMA/CLINTON: It's not over until all the votes are counted --
CLINTON: Including Michigan and Florida.
OBAMA/CLINTON: Until all the secret delegates have voted --
(CROSSTALK)
OBAMA: And accordance to the mandate of the people.
CLINTON: Having made up their minds independently.
OBAMA/CLINTON: Because in the end no matter who wins, we can all stand behind one idea.
OBAMA: Democracy.
CLINTON: I deserve this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, get a load of this. This is Sunday in the park with Barack Obama and a cast of thousands. When we return, the stagecraft behind the biggest campaign rally of the year.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it is fair to say that this is the most spectacular setting for the most spectacular crowd that we have had in this entire campaign. This is unbelievable. Thank you!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It was more than chance that brought Barack Obama and about 75,000 people together in Oregon this weekend. It was stagecraft and it is worth a second look.
Tom Foreman joins me from Washington now. And Tom, 75,000 people can fill more than a baseball stadium. So how did they do it? How did they get so many people in one place?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, this weekend the Obama campaign rolled out a blockbuster bit of stagecraft with a rally at a Waterfront Park in Portland, Oregon, the biggest of his entire campaign. How did they make this happen? Well, they gambled.
The Obama people decided to go for it only last Thursday, and they had no way of knowing how big the turnout would be, but they stacked the deck in their favor with a multistage strategy.
First, on Thursday, they sent out word through local news that Obama would appear in Oregon for the last time before the primary. If you want to see him, they were saying, you better get down to the Waterfront Park. You can see how they were building a sense of urgency about all of this.
On Friday, they sweetened the pot by saying that Michelle Obama would be here. That was step number two. They were intending to draw in her fans and maybe even some women who were leaning Hillary Clinton's way.
Then, they booked a popular local band to warm up the crowd. That's step number three. It's called The Decemberists. This is their Web site. They hope that it could bring in some of the band's followers and other fans. Volunteers followed up with e-mails and fliers, and that's how they got the ball rolling, Campbell.
BROWN: So the biggest rally he has had in Oregon before yesterday was 12,000 people. You were saying this really was a gamble, right?
FOREMAN: Absolutely. Because back in 2004, John Kerry appeared at this very same park and he was with Bon Jovi as his musical guest. He's a big nationally known rock star and even though he drew close to 50,000 people, he fell a little bit short even in this giant event of filling up all of that space.
So you can imagine that if Obama drew less than Kerry did, there would be many unfavorable comparisons. That's why this was such a gamble for Obama.
As it turns out, however, he didn't have to worry. By show time, his campaign stagecraft had created such buzz that more than 70,000 people crowded into this park even on the waterfront nearby, and they just packed the place looking for a glimpse of what they clearly hope will be a blockbuster nominee for their party -- Campbell. BROWN: All right. Tom Foreman for us tonight. As always, Tom, thanks.
On tonight's "Political Ticker," Barack Obama picks up an endorsement from someone that you might not expect. Robert Byrd is 90 years old and the longest serving senator in U.S. history. He is a superdelegate, and he has represented West Virginia and the Senate for nearly 50 years.
Byrd joins West Virginia's other senator Jay Rockefeller in supporting Obama, even though Hillary Clinton trounced Obama in that state's primary just last week.
Byrd's endorsement of Obama is noteworthy because of Byrd's checkered past. He is a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, and he opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Byrd has denounced his former views on racial segregation.
And to find more stories like this one, check out our "Political Ticker" on CNN.com/politicalticker.
A congressman with a wife and three children, and a secret life and secret child. He's finally taking questions about the scandal. Stand by for his answer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We leave you tonight with an update on one of our favorite stories about a scandal surrounding Congressman Vito Fossella of Staten Island, New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Over the weekend, embattled Republican Congressman Vito Fossella of New York turned up for a parade in his home district. He has mostly stayed out of sight ever since a drunk driving arrest led to the scandalous revelation that he had not only led a secret double life, but had fathered a child in an extramarital affair. He was willing to take some hard hitting questions. Well, sort of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Are you planning on resigning?
REP. VITO FOSSELLA (R), NEW YORK: I'm here to celebrate the parade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Are you trying to make amends to the community?
FOSSELLA: This is a great tradition that the great community has done. A great people who take the time every year to honor those who gave their life for freedom and I feel proud to participate every year, including this one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Has your wife said anything about this situation? Are you going -- FOSSELLA: It's a great day for a parade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Staying together?
FOSSELLA: It's a great day for a parade.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
